The NL Needs the DH
by BSmitty on Jul 1, 2008 9:19 AM EDT
123 comments
A number of current MLB controversies have made it clear that the game is moving forward into a new era. One fan tries to find the best balance between past and present.
From http://www.splicetoday.com/sports/the-nl-needs-the-dh
Baseball is an exhilarating yet frustrating mess of contradictions, and this fan is caught in the trap—like millions of other men and women (save George Will, whose pompous moral certitude about the sport is immutable)—of trying to reconcile “purist” instincts with the undeniable improvements in the game over the past several decades. Last weekend, for example, while watching a slew of inter-league contests via the MLB “Extra Innings” package (which, regardless of varying prices depending on your locale and cable provider, costs less for an entire season of televised games than one day at a stadium for a family of four), I finally switched gears and figured it was time for the National League to acquiesce and adopt the still-controversial designated hitter rule.
Heresy, I guess, but what the hell; if you’re a Milwaukee Brewers’ devotee, wouldn’t it be delightful to see the world’s tubbiest vegetarian, Prince Fielder, in the dugout, contemplating his next plate appearance, instead of anchored at first base? One league’s dominance over the other usually runs in cycles, but the N.L. seems mired in a slump that’s likely to run longer than the Great Depression, and this was evident once again over the weekend. Sure, the strategy required of an N.L. manager is more intricate than A.L. counterparts with double-switches and more sacrifice bunts, but the two leagues might be more competitive if older free agents (or crummy fielders) could extend their careers as a DH.
That said, and here’s one of those curveballs, I can’t stand inter-league play, even though it pumps up attendance and allows fans to see star players who were once a mystery aside from the All-Star game (which, of course, has devolved into a meaningless exhibition game instead of a proud showcase) or the World Series. My 13-year-old son, with whom I have the pleasure of sitting next to in our matching easy chairs in the homestead’s television room, adamantly disagrees, but I chalk that up to his participation in a fantasy league with a bunch of school buddies. I just don’t like the disruption of the season’s rhythm, the fake “rivalries” cooked up by MLB schedule makers—sure, the Cubs and White Sox make sense, but the Rockies and Tigers?—for the sake of novelty and profit.
See the rest at http://www.splicetoday.com/sports/the-nl-needs-the-dh
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Boo
The guy made basically zero points the whole time about why…it’s just his personal preference…and he’s an AL fan.
by stlfan on Jul 1, 2008 9:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A long debate about the DH just fell off the first page of FanPosts
Disguised as a thread about Yankees management.
There’s a lot of very good debate going on in that thread, I recommend perusing it. Granted, it’s a bit tilted in favor of the no-DH side since this is an NL team site, but very articulate nonetheless.
by mojowo11 on Jul 1, 2008 9:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
Really, the only thing I would add to that thread is this:
I went to all six I-70 series games…and the only one I was remotely bored at was the last game that was higher scoring and took nearly 4 hours to complete. The other 5 games had at least one starting pitcher throwing very well (even when there was a DH) and the games simply flew along and were entertaining. That last game was just a drag-it-out, wait for a homer type of game that I just dislike. BORING.
by stlfan on Jul 1, 2008 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DH or no DH
I think it is time both leagues were on the same page, regardless of how it turns out. I care more about competitiveness than tradition, and the lack of the DH in the National League puts all of the teams at a severe disadvantage when it comes to interleague and the World Series.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 9:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I like the difference in the leagues...
But its not surprising coming from a “resurrect Bonds career” type fan…no love for the history of the game? Were you too young for Kingman, the proto-DH?
Cmon, guy….lets leave those big guys to thrill the fans at AAA with a towering home run every 12-13 ABs after as many SOs, this is something a little more sacred than just being a fan of power hitters. There have been a few DHs that could play, but look at the protos…
I dont care HOW it effects the scoring, the competitive level between the league, the strategy or the game plan, the use of the bench, defense or whatever argument there might be for or against it….watching the AL is akin to watching softball to me in some ways.
What would be nice would several solid years of consistent NL drafting and smart trades….
by cardschinmusic on Jul 2, 2008 4:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oooppps...
Just read ahead and realized why you were so strident in your position above on competition between the leagues and all the arguments you made for the DH….maybe you should go read the thread mentioned above. Also, you can tune in AL games and watch all you want…
by cardschinmusic on Jul 2, 2008 5:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will
The Rays-Red Sox game had all the intensity of a playoff game last night, and the Rays fans were drowning out the Red Sox fans for the first time.
Amazing stuff. All of you guys can be condescending asses if you want, but the AL brand of baseball is a far superior one right now. And that is an NL fan who hates to admit that.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 2, 2008 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And as far as the other thread being sufficient
obviously the discussion had not run its course, and this thread went in some different directions from that one, as far as I can tell. I don’t think over 100 comments qualifies as a worthless diary.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 2, 2008 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice
“you guys can be condescending asses all you want, but clearly i’m right.”
by baw on Jul 2, 2008 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yah
I thought that was an interesting comment as well. You can say the AL has a better brand of baseball, but is it due the the DH, or is it due to better overall management, more money, and a widening salary gap between the leagues?
I would disgree with you as well. On a personal level, I really hate watching AL games. I have a couple of teams that I follow (Twins because they are my Dad’s favorite team, and A’s because of the white shoes….) but there is a lack of strategy to those games, and rivalries get a lot more heated and STUPID because pitchers don’t have to hit. I don’t see Pedro dusting people off for the Mets near as much as he used to with the Sox.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 2, 2008 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, pitchers in the NL cant hide...
Probably 75 of the comments were basically refuting your posts as you switched positions and arguments to stretch your stance on the subject.
Go look at “The Lack of Qaulity Free Agents”...how many posts on that? Why get angry, did you want everybody to just agree with you?
How could the BoSox and Rays NOT have the intensity of a big game man, with 2/3rds of the world wanting to see the Sox get whipped up on and check out the new Rays team? Not a good example, so how about Seattle and Texas? Which DH made that recent 3 game stand exciting?
Theres nothing to admit, its your position not mine…...period.
by cardschinmusic on Jul 3, 2008 3:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a better brand
simply because they win a huge percent of the games against the NL, and have for a while now. That’s not an opinion, that’s a fact.
Dude, you just have a problem with me because I think Barry Bonds is a terrific baseball player. You follow me around on these threads and bring that up whenever you disagree. Its happened multiple times. You even admit in this thread you didn’t even read my comments, you just saw the screen name and threw in some sarcastic comment. Get a new hobby.
“The Lack of Quality Free Agents?” What the hell are you talking about? Bringing up Seattle and Texas? That is just weird…its just a game like all the rest going on around the league and had literally nothing to do with what we were talking about.
Again, the so called contradictions you guys pointed out were my attempt to flesh out some different concepts because its a complex game. If you think those were contradictions then I wasn’t being clear in what I was saying, and I apologize for that, but some of you were reading what you wanted to hear in those and not even attempting to see what I was saying.
Ironic because most of you are so convinced you are right and yet accuse me of coming across like everyone has to agree with me, yet I never just jumped on you guys
People don’t have to agree with me, I just expect to be listened to with respect before people just jump down my throat. Most of you just attacked me or insulted me, without provocation. Your first responses were hostile and some were just plain rude.
My bad for not being a part of the all wise and all inclusive thread of a few weeks ago. And my bad for simply considering how the DH could make baseball better instead of joining in the perpetual bitch fest that most people have when it comes up. Your incredible insight has changed my opinion forever! You all sure showed me!
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 3, 2008 6:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know what?
Never mind guys. I got a little upset and sarcastic and I apologize.
Next time, I will just try to be more clear. I was more concerned about getting an opinion out there than actually articulating it well. Again, very sorry to everyone if you were offended. Later.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 3, 2008 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The competitive difference
The AL isn’t the better league just because it has a DH. It’s better because right now, it has better hitters.
In 2007, if my calculations are correct:
In games when the pitcher had to bat, the AL slugged .428.
When he didn’t, the AL slugged .422.
(Interestingly, those numbers are almost exactly reverse for the NL, unless I’ve screwed something up)
by baw on Jul 3, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...cardsfan24....
http://www.sbnation.com/users/cardschinmusic/search?type=Comment&q=cardsfan24&btn=Search
Are these the sarcastic, horrid reponses to your “screen name” youre referring to?
And I FOLLOW you around?...... these are from Dec and Oct 2007….wow! In one Im apopolgizing to you and in the other Im agreeing with you…get some help!
We’ll end it on that note.
by cardschinmusic on Jul 4, 2008 5:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please
those are just comments when you actually use my user ID in the text of the comment. It is not all of your replies.
And I stopped caring about this approx. 4 seconds ago. Onto the next topic. Good day, and free Barry Bonds.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 4, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blasphemy
The game is better without the DH
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57RIP: Josh Hancock
by cardsfan84 on Jul 1, 2008 10:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
god forbid we expect our pitchers to be complete players. these guys have spent the majority of their playing careers as hitters, often quite gifted hitters at that.
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jul 1, 2008 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
er...God forbid...
we expect players to play the field to earn 6-8 digit contracts…
by stlfan on Jul 1, 2008 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So now low-payroll teams will be at an
even greater disadvantage because they can’t afford to pay $10-18 million DHs to keep up with the richer teams? And while it would be nice to see fewer slobs playing 1B, at the same time, the DH would encourage teams to employ MORE slobs with big bats. For my money, more slobs = bad for baseball.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 1, 2008 11:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Plus
some people seem to want the DH in th NL just because the NL is getting beat up in interleague. Why not just institute the DH for every interleague game? That way, even though the NL might still suck at interlaegue, it would at least shut up the Hank Steibrenners that whine about hitting pitchers. But to completely integrate the DH just so the NL is more competitive at the cost of ruining the intricacies, strategies and a significant amount of managerial talent is an option that I feel would not make baseball better.
At least he's better than Esteban Yan.
by jacksonian on Jul 1, 2008 11:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The NL would still be at a disadvantage
if the DH rule applied to all interleague games because the DH for the NL team would be a bench player making $0.5-1M, while the AL DH is a professional full-time hitter worth $5-10M.
by hit and run on Jul 1, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boooo
Bow to the Queen of Slime!
The Queen of Filth!
The Queen of Putrescence!
Boooooo!
Boooooo!
Rubbish! Filth! Slime! Muck!
Boooooo! Boooooo! Boooooooooooooooooo!
by liam on Jul 1, 2008 11:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Beautiful isn't it?
It took me half a lifetime to invent it. I’m sure you’ve discovered my deep and abiding interest in pain. Presently I’m writing the definitive work on the subject, so I want you to be totally honest with me on how the machine makes you feel. This being our first try, I’ll use the lowest setting.
by stlfan on Jul 1, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"my way is not very sportsmanlike"
just imagine david ortiz saying that instead of fezzik. burn!
by mattybobo on Jul 1, 2008 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't care if its blasphemy
I don’t like watching pitchers waste time by taking crappy hacks at the plate, and most of them do just that.
The DH isn’t going anywhere in the AL, so the NL needs to adopt it
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 12:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t like watching slow first basemen lumber around the bases, and most of them do just that.
I don’t like watching small middle-infielders hit for no power, and most of them do just that.
I don’t like watching catchers who don’t hit as well as Joe Mauer, and most of them do just that.
Those guys aren’t going anywhere. So the least we can do is designate players to play half the game FOR them and I will enjoy the game more.
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
None of those
directly affect the competitive balance of the game, so perhaps its just your personal preference?
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry,
but what does “none of those directly affect the competitive balance of the game” mean?
It’s my personal preference to have all players play both sides of the game. This is not football—we don’t have an offensive nine and a defensive nine.
There is no reason pitchers can’t be good hitters; a vast number of them were mashers at some point.
What is the difference between designating a hitter and designating a runner?
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Designating a hitter
has a much greater impact on the game than designating a runner ever will. I hope that doesn’t need to be explained more.
One league having a roster spot that can be used to massively upgrade the offense while the other league does not effects how those leagues compete against one another. It throws the competitive balance out of whack.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is an argument
AGAINST the designated hitter, not for it.
I’m not asking you about the difference in impact between a DH and a designated runner. I’m making the point that there is no practical difference in the concepts.
And both are silly.
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because the balance is not equal
does not mean that the DH should be done away with. It could mean that the NL needs to adopt the rule. There are two solutions to the problem.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the NL instead instituted a designated runner rule, should the AL adopt it?
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is wrong with it?
Hell, if a league wants to adopt a designated anything, that’s fine. I’m just not sure that a designated runner would be a good use of a roster spot. The DH is.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree to disagree, then
I’d rather see 9-on-9 in all facets of the game. Substitutions are strategic and we all enjoy agonizing of TLR’s use of them. A designation is different, IMO. A cop-out.
And again, there’s no reason pitchers can’t become good hitters.
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brian Barton
Would be a hell of a designated runner. I, for one, am all for it. Any time Glaus or Molina reaches base safely, we should get Barton to run for them. I liked Kerry Robinson a lot, but am glad he is no longer a Cardinal…but with that rule, I might want him back. Then we could have two out there at the same time. Hell, let’s trade for Joey Gathright from the Royals and just have a shit-ton of them!
by stlfan on Jul 1, 2008 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could get behind that
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we're getting DRs
we might as well sign Justin Gatlin or something
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
over specialization
To me the DH is a prime example of the specialization of roles which seems to be a continuing trend in baseball (see relief pitching). In a way this specialization is a good thing because you get to see the players at their best and only at their best (lefty reliever facing lefty, shutdown closer only pitching 1 inning, DH not playing the field, pitcher not hitting).
The problem with the DH specialization is that it takes away a lot the strategy that, in my opinion, makes the game so great. In game decisions are what makes the watching the game interesting. Arguing about whether or not to pinch hit, double switch, etc. makes the game much more fun and interesting. I’ll take watching the pitcher take bad hacks in order to keep that strategy in the game.
For those who argue that the DH should be implemented because they don’t want to watch the pitcher’s feeble attempts to hit or a DH be a butcher in the field, why stop there with the specialization. Its borderline painful to watch Yadier Molina plod around the bases, why not just implement a Designated Runner for him or anyone else that is slow. That seems like the same thing as the DH to me and obviously it is ridiculous. Players should have to participate in all aspects of the game, regardless of whether or not they suck at one of them.
"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon
by DJ87 on Jul 1, 2008 12:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The strategy is the key here
With the DH, what do you need a manager for? The batting lineup is completely separated from the pitching lineup. A computer can generate an ideal batting lineup, and the bullpen coach can send out the next reliever in line when his pitcher tires or becomes ineffective. There’s very little strategy left, especially when you consider that the overall increase in offensive production usually results in fewer steals, sacrifices, etc.
With the DH, the game becomes almost completely mindless. Just sit there, try not to think too much, and wait for the next home run.
by hit and run on Jul 1, 2008 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In AL baseball
there are still defensive substitutions, pinch runners and hitters, and the manager still has to manage a bullpen and entire pitching staff with sophistication.
It’s not like pinch hitting for the pitcher is one of the most earth shattering decisions made in the game anyway, in a lot of situations, it is very clear cut.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
I would argue that overspecialization tends to INCREASE the use of strategy in the game, not lessen it. You can see this throughout the game….as starters stopped going deep into game on a consistent basis the specialized bullpen evolved into what it is today. This caused the managing of a bullpen to be extremely important in the context of each individual game and throughout the season. This caused the strategic level of the game to increase and not decrease.
Think about it: the DH has caused offenses to become more potent in the AL, so pitchers have had to adapt and so have the managers. Relievers will be brought in specifically to pitch to these behemoths, like how the Yankees search for lefty relievers who can get Ortiz out in late innings situations. Starters will come out of games so a fresh pitcher can face the heart of the AL lineups that usually contain the DH.
The DH also doesn’t have to be some mashing, lumbering type player. Any number of players can fit there, and determining who should be taking those ABs is a roster strategy decision not seen in the NL. A team like the Mariners, who have Jose Vidro as their DH, fail this strategic test and their team suffers for it.
Saying strategy is lessened by the DH sounds too simplistic to me and the support of it is more a support for the tradition of the game than anything else. That’s fine, and I even agree with that to an extent, but the arguments insulting the DH often lack a level of insight and sound knee-jerkish.
My ultimate point is simple: both leagues should have the same rules. I don’t see the AL dropping the DH anytime soon, so the NL should adopt it.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"There’s very little strategy left, especially when you consider that the overall increase in offensive production usually results in fewer steals, sacrifices, etc."
This sounds right, but the Boston Red Sox have the most famous DH of all time and they are among the league leaders in steals this season, if not in the lead. And yes, this happened while Ortiz was still in the lineup.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strategy is lessened by the DH
If that seems simplistic, it’s because it’s f’n obvious.
by liam on Jul 1, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
An excellent reply
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Almost as good as:
I don’t see the AL dropping the DH anytime soon, so the NL should adopt it.
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which was the last line of a multiple paragraph response
You have not responded to any of it, by the way.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is better to have loved and lost,
than never to have loved at all.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 3, 2008 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And by the way,
that type of reply makes your position seem less defensible, not more.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh really
Go back and read the thread where we debated this on end a week or two ago.
I’d rather spend my spare time making fun of the DH than explaining to people why it’s an abomination again.
Go back and read through your second and third paragraphs and explain to me how your argument is not a twisted wreck of inconsistency and then I’ll copy-paste some shit from the time this was argued two weeks ago to pretend as though I’m taking it seriously.
by liam on Jul 1, 2008 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Easy there slugger
It’s not inconsistent, its presented multiple facets of the issue.
I hold to my opinion that baseball is the only topic that people are more dogmatic on than religion.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DH talk gets me grumpy
But paragraph three is inconsistent: the DH doesn’t have to be a lumbering slugger, but if he isn’t, your team suffers because of it.
I’ll check this thread in a few days to see if anyone can support the claim that having a batter hit in the pitcher’s spot without the pitcher being removed from the game makes the manager’s strategic decision making more difficult. If anyone can, I’ll eat the rest of the hat I bit a chunk out of when Mike Maroth pitched a scoreless inning in some game last season.
by liam on Jul 1, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, your team suffers if
Jose freaking Vidro is your DH. Why? Because he can’t hit.
I have already supported that claim.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but not every non lumbering DH is Vidro-ish
Harold Baines was a DH and he was neither lumbering or Vidro-ish
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 1, 2008 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that just proves that it doesn't have to be overly wordy
to be right fucking on
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 1, 2008 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NL pitchers have 20 complete games so far this year. The AL has 43.
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So?
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You said:
Relievers will be brought in specifically to pitch to these behemoths, like how the Yankees search for lefty relievers who can get Ortiz out in late innings situations. Starters will come out of games so a fresh pitcher can face the heart of the AL lineups that usually contain the DH.
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but the NL had more complete games as recently as 2006
and the difference hardly seems large anyway. its still a relatively small difference considering the amount of games played.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's just an empty argument
The DH increases pitching changes when a starter can’t face Ortiz five times… but it decreases them because the pitcher only has to play half the game. It comes out in the wash. It’s insignificant.
What’s significant is that you are designating a player to play half the game. Can we have a DH for Izturis? Kennedy? Hell, it could solve a lot of problems pretty easily.
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
the ultimate question is what exactly defines strategy? If strategy is defined entirely by pinch hitting, double switches, and sacrifice bunting, then the DH certainly has decreased strategy since no doubt there are less of those things in the AL.
My argument is that strategy is in the decision whether or not to do those things at all. If strategy is in the decision making process, then the AL has MORE of that thinking and there is a larger chasm on what is or isn’t the correct way of thinking.
My basic argument is that specialization increases strategy. Its a good, classic baseball argument either way, and is a great way to burn some time at work.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure,
but if specialization increases strategy, then why have substitutions at all? Every task in baseball could be designated, and “strategy” would skyrocket.
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because that would change the basic nature of the game
25 men per roster, per game. The DH is simply a more effective use of a roster spot, in my opinion.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The DH already changed the basic nature of the game.
I agree that it’s a fantastic use of a roster spot. It also would be awesome to use a roster spot on a pitching machine that threw a 12” curve and a 102-mph fastball, but that doesn’t mean it’s good for the game of baseball..
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh c'mon
the DH has not changed the basic mechanics of the game, it just replaces a crappy bench player with a better hitter so the pitcher focuses on his craft.
The game remains unchanged, and one can argue it is better.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow...
can I get an explanation on how the DH has NOT changed the basic mechanics of the game?
thats asinine. anything that changes the game from a 9 player sport to a 10 player sport changes things IMMENSELY. the game with a DH is SIGNIFICANTLY different than it was before.
by longhornscardinals on Jul 1, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is exactly it.
Both of you are correct. It is a game in which there are “25 men per roster, per game” and it is also a game that was changed when the DH was added because the game changed “from a 9 player sport to a 10 player sport.”
The DH should go.
by stlfan on Jul 1, 2008 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The basic mechanics of the game
meaning, the pitchers throws to a damn hitter. It just so happens that the DH is a better hitter.
Seek to understand, people, not just to be understood.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yet you said that by...
having total specialization, it would change the “basic mechanics of the game.”
you’re contradicting yourself. we’re still talking about a pitcher throwing to a “damn hitter,” but now there will be designated runners, and designated double-play turners, and designated bullpen catchers! oh, wait…
by longhornscardinals on Jul 1, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong
I said total specialization would change the basic nature of the game, but the DH is not nearly at that level and therefore does NOT change the basic mechanics of the game on a pitch by pitch basis.
Saying its a contradiction is just not good reading comprehension.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're making no sense..
your definition of changing the basic nature of the game is no longer having the “pitchers throw to a damn hitter.”
how does total specialization change this?
by longhornscardinals on Jul 1, 2008 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its because the arguments I am debunking make no sense
The super-specialization, the extreme “designated runner” or defender, the special double play combo, all of these go against the basic nature of the game.
It is a slippery slope argument, and has nothing to do with the DH.
Its a case of extremes only. All I am saying is that the DH keeps the play of the game the same.
If you don’t get that, then just stop this thread and get a new topic.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're basically reshaping your arguments every time to support whatever you're saying...
even if it runs counter to another thing you’re saying.
“Its a case of extremes only. All I am saying is that the DH keeps the play of the game the same.”
Perhaps it does, on one side of the ball. Unfortunately, there are three major aspects to playing baseball: pitching, defense, and hitting. You’ve left the hitting and pitching the same, while throwing defense out the window.
Anyway, agree to disagree. I think the DH screws up the game, you don’t. That’s that.
by longhornscardinals on Jul 1, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
Incorrect, wrong, uh-uh.
The only reason that you believe that the DH does not change the game is because it is already a 1/2 established rule. If the designated runner were introduced in the 70’s instead of the designated hitter, then you would be arguing the other way. It’s already there, but it does not already make sense to have.
by stlfan on Jul 1, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's really not what I am saying
I am just very unclear when I type. Ah well.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's not a "slippery slope" anyway
if you stick to the actual definition of a slippery slope, which was discussed in the last thread as well. no one’s saying the DH will cause these things. but what’s the difference between them all?
i’ll answer that. there is no difference between a designated hitter and a designated runner. in fact, IMO a “designated runner” rule written in 1973 would have been far less drastic. the AL didn’t bother with it because, as you said, it wouldn’t have the gigantic effect on the game that the DH has had.
it’s a silly idea, but so is the DH. the only reason you get to call every other argument a “slippery slope” is that you’ve come to accept and lovingly embrace the DH.
that’s fine, but don’t tout installing it in the NL “just because” the AL isn’t giving it up. that’s insipid.
by baw on Jul 2, 2008 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's still
“a pitcher throwing to a damn hitter” if we have 9 offensive players and 9 defensive players, a la NFL lite. all that changes is the roster size. the principle is exactly the same: you let the “defensive” side of the team focus on one aspect while the “offensive” side focuses on another.
why just pitchers? micah owings and carlos z want to know.
by baw on Jul 2, 2008 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many times...
does a pitcher get pinch hit for because of an opportunity to score and break a game open occurs late where the AL doesn’t have to worry about that? Probably has some emphasis on the complete games. Another emphasis on complete games is Roy Halladay and Sabathia. Those guys seem to pitch deep into EVERY game.
by Jumsy on Jul 2, 2008 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s fun to play devil’s advocate and I enjoy contrarian arguments as much as the next guy, but sometimes traditional wisdom is traditional for a reason. Arguing that the DH actually “increases strategy” is antithetical—it’s a DESIGNATION that inherently removes certain roster decisions from each individual game.
No one has any problem with replacing a pitcher with a good hitter. Just don’t expect to make that kind of substitution on only one side of the field!
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It definitely does decrease a certain type of roster move
but saying there is less strategy does not follow. The DH alters the game, so there will always be a strategy by opposing managers and players to counteract that influence. That is undeniable.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's absolutely deniable.
There are less roster moves to make when you don’t have to replace a pitcher every time you hit for him.
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roster moves
are not the sum of strategy.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I started us on saying “roster moves” when really that’s not what we’re talking about. But the point stands.
Anytime you have a designation instead of a substitution, strategy is reduced, and that is inherent.
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
that is NOT inherent. Baseball is too complex of a system for that.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're basically arguing for the sake of arguing...
the strategy involved in pinch-hitting for a pitcher is FAR greater than the strategy in deciding who will be the designated hitter.
by longhornscardinals on Jul 1, 2008 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm really not
I am merely suggesting there is more strategy in the game than either of you are acknowledging.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
of course there is still strategy with a DH...
no one is disputing that. we’re disputing the fact that the level of strategy is anywhere NEAR the level sans-DH.
by longhornscardinals on Jul 1, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From the for what its worth department.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Continued
Bill James commented on this once and I couldn’t find the quote and source, and this shaped part of my thinking about this issue. Finally found it, so here it is….
“I’m not an advocate of the Designated Hitter Rule; I’m only an advocate of seeing the truth and telling the truth. What the truth comes down to here is a question of in what does strategy reside? Does strategy exist in the act of bunting? If so the Designated Hitter Rule has reduced strategy. But if strategy exists in the decision about when a bunt should be used, then the DH rule has increased the differences of opinion which exist about that question, and thus increased strategy…[the research shows] that there is more of a difference of opinion, not less, in the American League.” (The Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract. Villard Books, New York. 1986. Page 260.)
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It says the point better than I can
THE SUM OF BASEBALL STRATEGY IS NOT IN MAKING SUBSTITUTIONS and the like. There is more to it than that.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
goodness
this has to be the 1 millionth freakin time someone has quoted Bill James when making an argument.
When the hell did Bill James become right on everything?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 1, 2008 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does "for what its worth"
mean anything to you? simply an appeal to a baseball voice that has some authority in a community like this one.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that wasn't meant just for you
I just actually saw Bill James in an argument and went off. I am a fan of James, but even I get tired of the guy
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 1, 2008 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know what you mean.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It really is inherent, though, by definition.
Any designation requires one decision. A substitution at the plate requires two, if a pitcher is involved.
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your overall point
but I don’t think that your claim is universally valid. Look at something like hockey, where the motion of the goalie/defensemen/offensive players is limited, which both designates them to specific roles, AND cuts off a particular strategy (cherrypicking goals). This is a designation and a restriction of the rules, but it increases strategy in the game, because cherry picking strategies cut off strategy.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Jul 1, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or to go further...
the example of lacrosse…because they are much more restricted than hockey players in their movement.
by stlfan on Jul 1, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if it helps
don’t think of it as a “designated hitter,” instead, think, “permanently substituted hitter.”
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
That doesn’t help.
I understand your side but I totally disagree with it.
by baw on Jul 1, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine
its still a good topic.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"The DH alters the game?"
But I thought you said “All I am saying is that the DH keeps the play of the game the same.”
by Ray Lankford on Jul 1, 2008 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can see why that's so confusing
My bad guys, I am an unclear communicator on the interwebs. My basic summary:
The DH alters the game by replacing a poor hitting pitcher with a (presumably) better hitting player.
but
The DH also allows the game to LOOK the same from a mechanics standpoint. It’s still baseball on a pitch by pitch basis. This is a response to the super-specialized argument
I hope that is more clear.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Jul 1, 2008 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understood your argument
I was making a toungue-in-cheek reference to how inconsistent your position is. It basically boils down to this: the DH alters the game (because you can’t deny that) but not so much as to make it a different sport. Aside from being an arbitrary and pointless distinction, it doesn’t support your conclusions, which are: 1) the NL should adopt the DH rule, and 2) the DH makes the game better.
You have offered no support for these conclusions, other than your personal feelings on the subject. Fine and dandy, but don’t get pissy with other people who don’t share your feelings. As someone pointed out in the last fan post on the subject, Baseball Rule 1.01 pretty much takes care of it: “Baseball is a game played between two teams of nine players each.” Because the DH doesn’t play the field and the pitcher doesn’t bat, there are 10 players participating without substitutions being made.
Arguments like “who wants to see the pitcher bat, anyway,” only lend themselves to the corollary “super-specialization” arguments, like “who really wants to see Prince Fielder run the bases anyway” because they offer no logical way to distinguish between a DH and a DR. The question is, what about hitting makes it so damned intuitive that someone should do it for the pitcher? Because he’s not a good hitter? Well, Prince Fielder is not a good runner, and round and round we go.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 2, 2008 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2nd/3rd Paragraphs
Every team in the NL West spent 5 seasons scrambling for guys to pitch to Barry Bonds. That “finding a lefty specialist” isn’t a AL-only phenomenon.
Jose Vidro is a shitty DH b/c he’s not a lumbering mashing dick-dropper, and his lack of dick-dropping is not made up for in the lineup. Really, if you fill in the DH with anyone BUT a lumbering masher or an old fossil you’re wasting that guy’s talents by forcing him to the pine for all but 4-5 PA’s a night.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 1, 2008 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The AL has the DH so that
older, popular hitters can keep playing, and so that overall offensive production is increased. My question: aside from the individual long-term health issues and legality, how is that ultimate outcome any different than allowing steroids or other PEDs?
by hit and run on Jul 1, 2008 12:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ugh
no no no.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jul 1, 2008 1:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It really is time for the DH in both leagues
I’ve hated the DH in the American League since it was instituted and thought after a two-year experiment or so it would be abandoned. But it hasn’t and I just want both leagues playing by the same rules. Look, it pains me that hardly any fans even keep score at games (or know how to) but it’s time to give it up. I don’t imagine many fans were upset in the early 20th century with the passing of the “deadball era.”
by Blinker1315 on Jul 1, 2008 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If the DH is instituted in the NL
I will stop watching baseball.
by Evilfrog on Jul 1, 2008 4:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
me too
i will start watching that professional softball league. unless they have the DH too
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 1, 2008 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh oh...I think....
...that where the DH originated…those ghastly home run brutes with the 359 degree swings that cant run the bases on all the softball “Beer Teams”....thats where the whole midset comes from!!
Im done with it all too if the NL goes DH…its an embarassment to the game and who cares about the future if comparing the present to something as far gone as the dead ball era. There are good reasons the dead ball era is gone.
The DH IS good for putting softball fans in the seats at MLB parks….$$ is about the only real reason I can think of.
by cardschinmusic on Jul 2, 2008 5:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I meant the professional women's league
I actually watched a few innings of a professional women’s fastpitch softball league the other day. I can’t imagine anyone would waste time watching a slo-pitch softball league
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 2, 2008 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate the DH
These guys are baseball players, not baseball hitters. If they suck at fielding so badly they can do nothing but DH then they need to practice their fielding to get better at it or become a beer-leaguer. I hate watching Yadi lumber around the bases, but he’s a baseball player so he needs to do it. Pitchers should be able to be quasi-useful baseball players who can run around the bases once a night, so they need to do it just the same as Yadi needs to run around the bases. Why? B/c they’re fucking baseball players. I’m not even that old, I wasn’t really a baseball fan in the pre-DH years, and I still think it’s an abomination. Btw, as has already been mentioned, there is an entire thread about this already.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 1, 2008 6:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with the original post.
Miles in '08
by Zoop on Jul 1, 2008 7:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Just to fish for opinions
For the record I hate the DH, and personally wish that the Cardinals would bat the pitcher in interleague play (half-kidding). However, its late and an idea popped into my head so here goes.
What if there were an amendment to the DH rule wherein no player could be a DH for more than 1 game in a series. Thus, it would not necessarily be advantageous to have a player who can’t field, he still has to field or ride the bench (roughly) 2/3 of the time. The DH spot then would become more of a position to give rest to everyday players while still keeping them in your lineup.
This system would still have all the inherent problems of pitchers not batting, late game batting substitutions for pitchers and double switches that many people despise. However, defensive substitutions for guys that would be permanent DH’s in todays game would probably increase.
Thoughts?
by MotherTruckinSteve on Jul 3, 2008 3:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Add in...
that you can DH for anyone in the lineup, rather than just the pitcher and you have a START to a decent rule…but I still don’t know that I’d like it completely.
My point through the part of the rule that I added is that I would much rather see Jason Marquis, Adam Wainwright, or Micah Owings bat than some people who might be in the lineup (think Kennedy or Izturis when they’re not batting well.)
by stlfan on Jul 3, 2008 7:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point
I always assumed that the DH could be for anyone in the lineup, and it was just common practice to have it apply to the pitcher. This is probably just my ignorance, since I’ve certainly never read the rulebook.
by MotherTruckinSteve on Jul 3, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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