Can't Touch This
by the red baron on Jun 28, 2008 9:45 AM EDT
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PrintI'm not a big curser, just by nature, really. I don't toss around obscenities a whole lot, particularly when in print. I do occasionally, of course, but I try not to go to extremes. I just don't think that it's really necessary. That being said, there's something that I feel I need to say this morning. I apologise in advance to anyone who is easily offended, and to all of the ladies who might be reading this.
Goddamn fucking Royals.
There. Again, I apologise to everyone for that, but it really and truly did need to be said, I think.
Alright, now that we've got the unpleasantness out of the way, we can move on. There's really not very much that I can say about last night's game. We had the worst possible combination of middle infielders on the field, Chris Duncan's double doesn't change the fact that he still can't hit his way out of a soggy paper bag at the moment, Ryan Ludwick desperately needs to get hot again, and Joel Pineiro should sue Aaron Miles and himself for poor defense and throwing meatballs, respectively. Just a poor showing pretty much all around.
A couple of days ago, in Lboros's post entitled "The Market for Pitchers", someone mentioned that they would be interested in a post about which players in the Cards' minor league system we consider, or should consider, untouchable when looking at possible trades to improve the current roster. Well, when I read that, I thought to myself, you know, that's a fantastic idea. And I am nothing if not willing to run with somebody else's good idea, (I'm like the Jasper Johns of sports blogging, really) so that's just what I want to talk about this morning.
Now, of course, when we're talking about possibly making trades involving the Cards' minor league depth, it's important to consider just what they might be receiving in return. In order to keep this from becoming too very overwrought, though, I can't really take into account every possible trade target. Suffice it to say that if Brian Sabean were really, really looking to move Tim Lincecum or Matt Cain, I would trade anyone and everyone, possibly outside of Rasmus, to bring one of them in. The only reason I wouldn't move Rasmus is because I'm not a big fan of trading superstar position players for pitchers, no matter how good. Too much injury risk and all that.
With that caveat in mind, about not mapping out specific trades, let's take a look at what they Cardinals have, and what they should and should not be willing to move, shall we?
First off, of course, there's Colby. Others, most notably Azruavatar, have laid out the reasons why you shouldn't trade Rasmus more completely than I ever could, so I won't rehash the exact arguments here. The point is, the kid is going to be a star, and for cheap, for awhile at least. I'm not sure there's a player in the major leagues right now I would move Colby for straight up, to be honest. Maybe Jay Bruce. He and Rasmus are fairly equivalent players, with Colby's defense a big plus over Bruce, but Bruce's bat much closer to a finished product. Since the Cards already have a player who can man center field pretty well in Ankiel, I would consider making the deal for Bruce. Other than that, though, I just don't know if there's anyone I would move him for. I think Rasmus has to fall pretty firmly in the untouchable category.
Jess Todd, RHP- The other day, I believe it was on the MLB channel on XM Radio, I heard a news break that included the line score for the Double A All Star Game. In it, Jess Todd was referred to as "Cardinals' righty phenom Jess Todd." It's the first time I've heard Todd referred to as a phenom, but I doubt it will be the last. Admittedly, Todd has struggled badly lately, seeing his ERA balloon all the way into the upper 1.00s, but I think he'll get back on track soon. His peripherals are all pretty much in line, so it's not as if his success is an illusion at the moment.
The biggest key to Todd's performance this year has apparently been his development of a cut fastball, as detailed by Derrick Goold a while back in his Birdland blog. Todd also falls firmly in the untouchable category for me. He's a little undersized, but his mechanics are solid, so I don't think he'll be a huge injury risk. I wouldn't move him.
Chris Perez, RHP- We all know what's happened with Perez this year. He came into the season seeking better command over his repertoire, found it in Triple A, got called up to the bigs, and hasn't looked back since. He's still not exactly Greg Maddux on the control front, but he's good enough. I still want to see Perez continue to develop, but this is the sort of pitcher you can build a bullpen around. Untouchable.
Bryan Anderson, C-After working with Mike Matheny in Spring Training on his blocking abilities, a lot of us had high hopes for Anderson, and for the most part, he hasn't disappointed. The power still just doesn't seem to be around very often, but he's hitting above .300 at Triple A as a 21 year old, while upping his caught stealing % to nearly 40% and not giving up a passed ball every other day. In short, this is a very, very good prospect, one that I think is quite underappreciated by most Cardinal fans.
Still, with Yadier Molina appearing to have the big league job locked up for years to come, (and I find it hard to complain too much as long as he continues to hit) I think you have to consider Anderson movable. I wouldn't ship him out on just any deal, but I wouldn't put him in the same category as these other guys. If you could trade for a young stud middle infielder or starting pitcher, Anderson should be on the block. (It hurts me inside to say that.)
Jaime Garcia, LHP- Garcia will turn 22 years old in a couple of weeks. He's pitching in Triple A right now, and doing so quite well. Enough said.
You want a good stat to demonstrate how well a pitcher is throwing? One of my personal favourites is GB%+K%. The two most desirable outcomes for a pitcher, added together, presents a pretty good picture of what kind of a job a pitcher is doing of preventing hard contact. (Yes, that's right, despite my railing against Dave Duncan, I do think groundballs are a very good thing.) Two years ago, Garcia was second in all the minor leagues in GB%+K%, next to only Philip Hughes. Last year, of course, Garcia struggled a bit with his control, his delivery, and his elbow, but appears to have mostly put that behind him this season.
He's only 21, lefthanded, and looks to be turning the corner in Triple A. He's untouchable, for me at least.
Pete Kozma, SS- Now here's an interesting case. The thing about Kozma is, he's probably too young, or at least too far away, to be much of a trade target anyhow, so this is most likely a moot point. Still, though, I have to wonder if the Koz is untouchable. He's 20, playing in the Midwest League, (Low A) and holding his own. Kozma got off to a very hot start in April this year but has since cooled off with the bat. Still, he's not overmatched in his first full year of pro ball, and by all accounts his defense is the real selling point, so he's still doing just what you hope he would.
As to whether or not he's untouchable, that's a little more complicated. The Cardinals are utterly barren at the shortstop position in the minors, with both Jose Martinez and Tyler Greene proving to all of us why they weren't considered top prospects in the first place. So Kozma's value is definitely improved within the organisation by positional scarcity. However, any move the Cards make would likely be made to try and upgrade the middle infield, so it's entirely possible they might end up making him less valuable as they make any hypothetical trade. Bottom line, I think you have to consider Kozma untouchable at this moment, but that may not stay true. The Cards just drafted a kid by the name of Niko Vasquez this season, who's off to a very hot start in short season ball, and as I said, any move is possible to bring in middle infield help. For now, though, I don't move Kozma. He looks to be for real, and the Cards desperately need for him to be.
Clayton Mortensen, RHP- Mortensen, only in his first full pro season, has reached Memphis already. Now, he wasn't necessarily moved up because he just absolutely decimated Double A, but he's held his own in Triple A despite being slightly, (though not a lot) young for the level and definitely being short on experience. He's walking too many in Triple A so far, as he looks to be trying to trick hitters rather than just attacking the strike zone, but he hasn't been overly hittable and is mostly getting the job done.
With the depth that the Cardinals currently have in the pitching ranks, particularly among those who throw from the right side, you have to consider Mort tradeable. I wouldn't be in any kind of hurry to move him, because I think he has a chance to be a very, very good pitcher, but there are others who probably have just as much potential. He's not exactly a fungible commodity, but he's not on the list of guys I just couldn't bear to part with. In the right deal, I have to consider moving Mort.
That's my list. Pretty much everyone else in the system is eminently tradeable, in my estimation. I'm not at all in favour of moving prospects just in general, but if the right deal comes along, I would part with pretty much anyone in the system outside of the players I listed above. Guys like Jon Jay or Jason Motte, while exciting talents in one way or another, are replaceable assets at this point.
The Cardinals have finally begun to build a minor league system with enough depth that they can afford to start moving some pieces here or there if it will help the big league team. Again, I'm not really a big proponent of moving prospects, as I think the future of this team is in the players they already have in the system and can build around, but outside of a few select individuals, the depth is now there to start using the minor leagues to bulk up the big club, if you can get good value.
So, what about you all? Who would you be willing, (or unwilling) to move?
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NIce summary
I agree with pretty much all the sentiments expressed, but it makes me wonder if any deals will get done with that many prospects off the table. I like Anderson more than most people and am glad to hear his defense is improving as Matheney suggested it would. Yadi has always been much more effective against LHPs and his number this year, .600 OPS vs. RHP and 1.041 OPS vs. LHPs, just underscore that imbalance. I would love to see Anderson get a chance to get some significant playing time with the big club this year, but I doubt that will happen. It would be a real luxury to have a right/lefty catching combination with legitimate offensive production from both guys.
I am still not sold on Kozma, but I am willing to be patient. For all the admiration of his defense, the DFR at future redbirds said he made his 15th error last night.
The Cardinals are in a pretty strong position as they don’t have to make any moves and look to be sitting pretty for ‘09.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
It's true,
I do see a whole lot of these guys as being important enough to be untouchable, but even so just look at the amount of depth you’ve still got, especially in the relief pitching area. Guys like Motte, Salas, Worrell, Francisco Samuel, and others are all useful players and could be used to acquire talent.
I guess that, more than anything, I just don’t think that the Cardinals are in a position that they can make that one magic bullet trade, at least not without giving up way too much in return.
I really like where the Cards are sitting right now, with the exception of a few little problems here and there. If they can make a marginal move or two, such as getting a lefty for the ‘pen, and try to acquire one talented young middle infielder, I think that’s an absolutely great situation. I guess I just fall into the camp of believing that what they already have is going to be tough to improve upon without way overpaying and gutting their chances in the future.
Why don't you just make like a tree, and get out of here?
by the red baron on Jun 28, 2008 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
mo knows
listening to mo last night it seemed pretty clear that a trade on the margin is the only kind of trade we’re likely to see this with eye toward improving the club’s performance this year. he seemed fixed on making next year a big year and wasn’t too enthusiastic about moving anyone before deadline outside of the outfield. the priority seemed clearly to be as competitive as we can be now, but no move that would mortgage the future. not sure how that impacts the list of untouchables, he did not discuss individuals.
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!
Jeff Lunow
was interviewed on Ktrs last week and the 1st question asked was. ” Is there one MiL player you would like to give special attention to as standing out so far this season and having a good chance of being a future Cardinal.
Lunow didn’t hesitate and talked for several minutes singing the praises about Donavan Solano, Palm beach SS. I don’t know anything about Solano except reading the box scores and know that he is hitting solid this year, but evidently the Cards hold him in high regard…might make Kosma expendable in future.
One other thing off subject (and this crap started last year) Seems every series we face with other teams, there is one maybe two opposing players that are killin us in key spots, just can’t get them out at all in key situations. KC, it is Alex Gordon supported by De Jesus. Gordon and De Jesus have just about beat us single handed in both series….every team has at least one player that just rakes Cardinal pitching…wish that problem could be solved. Are the advanced scouting getting good reads on other teams.
I don't like the term "untouchable".....
Because for the right deal, I’d move anybody. Obviously Rasmus comes the closes to that term as far as current prospects, but if somebody offered up a deal for a 25 year old SS that was a complete stud, and they wanted Rasmus, I’d have to seriously consider that.
Same with the pitching. I don’t want to move our talented young pitching for 2 month rentals, but I’d move any pitcher in our system for a proven 1-2 type starter, so long as the guy didn’t have a terrible contract, or wasn’t 35 years old.
That said, I kind of hope the Cardinals stand pat this season. Sure, we could add a small piece or two and maybe sure up a wild card birth, but are we really going to be much better than that this year? Actually, let me rephrase that first part…..I hope management doesn’t make any moves that are ONLY for this year. If we acquire a LOOGY, for instance, that would be around going forward, I’m all for that.
I’m hoping that at some point we can move an OF or two. Looking at AAA, we’ve got some talented kids that aren’t even getting AB’s due to our depth. I’d look to move Skip, see what we can get for him. I also think one of Ankiel/Ludwick should be made available, at some point. And while I’d like to see us resign Lohse, if we aren’t going to, lets move him. Not sure what we’d get in the way of picks if we let him just walk though.
Agreed.
If the Dodgers suddenly decided they didn’t want Clayton Kershaw around, I would probably have to consider moving Rasmus too. I just don’t see a deal coming up that I’m so blown away by that I feel comfortable moving that player for, though. I’m in the same boat, of feeling that standing pat isn’t at all the worst thing, although I’m sure it will piss off a decent portion of the fan base if it does come to pass.
You are right, though, in that untouchable probably isn’t the best possible word for the situation, but I’m not sure what better one there really is.
Why don't you just make like a tree, and get out of here?
by the red baron on Jun 28, 2008 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
And understand.....
I wasn’t really calling out your use of that word, as I know it gets thrown around alot in baseball circles. Just wanted to point out that nobody is really untouchable.
Where would a guy like Motte fall on your list?
by SoonerfanTU on Jun 28, 2008 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I really, really, really like Kershaw
but I still wouldn’t consider moving Rasmus straight up for him. A combination of either Todd or Garcia AND another good prospect? Yes….maybe
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 28, 2008 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
damn straight!
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 28, 2008 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
bad philosophy to trade above average everyday players (actual or projected such as rasmus) for any pitcher, ever
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!
Why?
I know this is the standard mantra throughout baseball, since time immemorial, but it just doesn’t pass the sniff test for me.
Who are the best hitter and pitcher in baseball, respectively? How about Pujols and Johan Santana? We could debate the particulars but it really doesn’t matter.
Last year, Pujols played in 158 games and came to the plate 679 times. Santana also played a full season and faced hitters 878 times. So both played the entire season and Pujols had the opportunity to directly impact the game 679 times while Santana had the opportunity to impact the game 200 more times than Pujols.
Now, it’s not quite that simple as Pujols (or any hitter) makes more of an impact than any pitcher defensively but the idea that we should never, ever trade a position player for a pitcher is short-sighted IMO. For example, Pujols was, w/o question, the best defensive player in baseball last year. He made 37 more plays, defensively, than the average first baseman ).(according to the fielding bible Still, that’s just 37 more plays than the average first baseman would have made. So, the argument could be made that Santana is tougher to replace b/c he impacted the game 200 more times than Pujols did at the plate. Even subtracting the 37 plays Pujols made at 1st that an average person would have made and the difference is still 163 plays in Santana’s favor. Therefore, as I said, it’s short-sighted to just arbitrarily dismiss the idea of trading a position player for a pitcher.
It’s based on the notion that position players are more able to affect the game b/c they play every day whereas pitchers only play once every fifth day. The difference, of course, is that position players are only able to affect play, offensively, once out of every 9 PA’s when they play but pitchers affect every PA when they’re in the game.
Now, I wouldn’t trade Pujols for Santana or anyone else but, as I said, I believe it’s short-sighted to say you should NEVER consider trading a position player for a pitcher, straight-up.
Not that I disagree
But putting 37 plays above average on the same plane as the 679/878 “PAs affected”.....isn’t good.
Pujols got on base in 284 plate appearances whereas the average 1B in Busch would’ve gotten on 242 times and …...Pujols got on 42 extra times over the average 1B. Obviously he hit way more homeruns and doubles than the average 1B so it’s not perfect (in theory I guess he also prevented many more doubles as well), but that’s much closer to the scale those 37 “plays he affected” should be on rather than the straight just plate appearances.
Like I said I don’t disagree with you on the general principle, just that little math quip.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
I would never trade a great postion player for a great pitcher
Using the Pujols/Santana comparison works for me
37 games with a direct chance of impacting the game vs 158.
Santana can win at most 37 games. Pujols has the chance to win 119 more.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
huh?
how many games does either a pitcher or 1st baseman win by himself? If the Mets don’t score any runs in any of Santana’s starts, he’ll get credit for 0 runs regardless of how well he pitches. You can’t honestly believe that this is a good method of comparison.
no it isn't really
I am just going on potential. I guess it didn’t come off right. I just don’t think you should ever trade a superstar player for a superstar pitcher.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
My reason is different
I feel much more confidence in a hitters ability to maintain his skill for 3,4,5 years than I do an elite pitcher. Not going so far as to say I’d never deal a hitter for a pitcher, but it does make me leary for that reason.
by Merry CRasmus on Jun 28, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
and by damn straight
I mean that is the only type of hitter I would think of trading Rasmus for.
Still wouldn’t do it.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
This Troy Tulo?
.148 .210 .234??
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
Those stats are nowhere near indicative
of just how good the guy is.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 28, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
c'mon joker
I’m guessing you are kidding since we both know that his injury ridden half year stats are hardly indicative of his true talent level. Not to mention he’s the best defensive SS since Adam Everett.
fair point
but I don’t have the confidence that Ludwick and Ankiel will be 6+ year above average performers or that Jon Jay will be an everyday OF or that Skip’s improvement will be repeated for several years. To me, Rasmus is special and we’d have him for 2 more years than Tulowitzki. I wouldn’t do it.
If Brett Wallace shoots through the system and gives every indication that he’s going to be an above average major league hitter, I wouldn’t trade Pujols for another star to open a spot for him. Pujols is special. Rasmus is not Pujols, but he’s special.
Half kidding
In the sense I know he’s much better than that line but I think I’m in the minority in saying he’s not a superstar. Coors effect even with the humidor still pumped up his numbers last year.
I’m speaking out of two sides of my mouth in this thread but I probably wouldn’t deal Rasmus for him (the injury ridden doesn’t really apply as he was brutal before popping the quad). Razzy boy also plays good defense at a premium position and I’d venture to say he’s probably going to be the better hitter..
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
+1
Tulo’s home line in ‘07 was .326/.392/.568/.960 with 15 HR and 60 RBI, but only .256/.327/.393/.719 with 9 and 39 on the road. Gotta do better on the road to be a superstar.
I can imagine some circumstances where I would trade Rasmus, but I can’t imagine them actually happening.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
In my view
No one in the Cardinal farm system should be considered untouchable, including Rasmus, who has yet to convince me that he will hit like a super star (Andy Van Slyke may be more like it). No one should be off the table if the right deal comes along. That being said, the right deal for a Rasmus, a Garcia, or a Perez is not too likely to manifest itself, considering the value-I hope correctly-the Cardinals are placing on these players. The others mentioned seem to be more likely bargaining chips in a major trade. I would not be too quick, however, to trade the unmentioned Joe Mather, whose bat-both power and average- really seems to be coming along and who might well be ready to take over in left field for the possibly overexposed Ludwick-he’s also four years younger- as well as be a better first-base backup than the increasingly hapless-looking Duncan.
last night's game
I have to second guess Oquendo. I think with speedy Skippy on the bags and a double… One has to send Skippy. I know it was first inning and one out. But we’ve been struggling of late, especially with the offense. Letting Meche off without a run was a missed opportunity. IMHO, I think Oquendo doesn’t do a good job, in general, in sending/stopping runners. I don’t think I can find any stats to back that up, as I don’t think anyone keeps coaching stats. I do appreciate his work with the MIF on fundamentals, though.
About Lud and Duncan, they are both equally hapless right now. Here are their recents stats (a day old):
Split GS PA AB R H HR RBI BB SO GDP BA OBP SLG
Luddy
Last7 5 26 22 2 2 0 1 3 6 2 0.091 0.231 0.091
14 11 52 45 4 6 0 4 5 13 3 0.133 0.231 0.178
Dunc
Last7 3 17 13 1 2 0 0 4 3 0 0.154 0.353 0.231
14 9 40 36 1 6 0 1 4 7 0 0.167 0.25 0.194
Let’s all hope that they get back on track soon. Both had a solid hit (Luddy a single to left, and Dunc a double to right).
And agreed about others’ sentiment of not wanitng to use an untouchable label. But I get your point, Baron, that it’s fun to list the top assets. It’s so exciting to see a stocked farm system.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
Sometimes I think the same about Oquendo
Especially after watching that Extra Inning Game in Fenway on Sunday. With Duncan on 2nd base, and I believe Shumacker’s single to right, he should not have sent him with only one out. Duncan does not have great speed, we have all seen Drew’s arm in Rightfield before, and at worst we would have had men on the corners, maybe even 2nd & 3rd. That leaves so many more chances for whoever was up to bat to drive in a run. A sac fly, a base hit, maybe even a LaRussa squeeze… Whatever. But instead of giving us that opportunity, Duncan was thrown out at home by a mile and we did not put up any runs. Just something that really made me angry with our 3rd base coach this season. Can’t really recall any other instances…
by Pujols Is A God on Jun 28, 2008 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
and I can count 4 or 5 times where that “go ahead” aggressiveness has saved our asses in games.
You can’t take the some and be upset about the others.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 28, 2008 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
That’s why I said… “Can’t really recall any other instances” There have not been enough “ba calls” by Jose to sway me either way on this issue. Granted, living in DC I don’t see nearly as many Cardinal game as I would like to. Oquendo’s aggressiveness is something that I do admire, but there are limits. The BoSox game was the most frustrating in recent memory… And I believe for justifiable reason. That’s all.
by Pujols Is A God on Jun 28, 2008 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
sorry
i probably should have worded it differently.
so take this comment instead.
At the end of the day Oquendo has earned the respect to have us look at a whole picture scenario rather than a particular game. That being said, his “sending of runners” has gained us wins in perspective.
Though I agree about BoSox game being frustrating, the part where it was frustrating is when we sat with a pitcher who couldn’t locate to get us to extras, rather than the play in the extras.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 28, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed on a balanced assessment
So the problem is that there are no stats on evaluating 3rd base coaching that I am aware of. Strangely enough, my impression of Oquendo is different from yours. I think he is aggressive at the wrong time and not aggressive enough at other times. I can’t recall when his aggressiveness has saved us games, but I can recall plenty of times when he has made the wrong call. Personally, I feel positive about Oquendo as a coach and that’s not counting his past as the “secret weapon”. So I wonder why I would have such a different impression than you? I am not only referring to this season, but this is based on my impression over the past several years. I wish there were some stats to prove me right or wrong. How about the times when Pujols runs through his signs? Is it Pujols’ extra aggressiveness or Oquendo’s lack of aggressiveness? Or a little of both?
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
+1
sending cd in boston really reduced our chances of winning that game. runner on 3rd, less than 2 outs is a good place to be regardless of who is hitting. major f… u.
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!
What, short of hitting in the majors, does Rasmus have to do to convince you he'll hit like a superstar?
I’m curious if there’s a reason or if this is one of those “prospects flame out” things.
I'm not him
But you can’t be absolutely convinced he’s going to rake in the majors can you? There are so many examples of guys who can’t quite get it done at the major league level as they did in the minors from Alex Gordon to Ruben Rivera to Cliff Floyd to Greg Vaughn. It’s a long list. At this point we can pretty much guarantee that he’s going to be a productive major leaguer, but superstar?? Not so much. Note: I’m not saying it’s not possible, just that assuming he’s going to be 6 years of cheap superstar isn’t very smart.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
Cliff Floyd?
And his career 119 OPS+ can’t rake? From Age 26 to 32, he had an average 128 OPS+
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 28, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Forgot how good he actually was.........
Whoops. Point still stands.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
Don't you have to draw a line in the sand though.
Eventually you have to say that this kid has hit so well in the minors that the chance of him busting out is simply outweighed by the chance that he’s going to hit (and hit well) in the majors. Sure players bust as they try to transition to the majors but no club is going to build a successful team nowadays unless they have prospects coming up from the minors (or have a 150M+ payroll). If you can’t bet on a player like Colby Rasmus than you’re basically saying that every prospect ever is a total crapshoot so f—k it, let’s just trade them all.
You can't be absolutely convinced
that Pujols won’t blow out his elbow tomorrow and never hit another homerun in the majors. Still, I’d be willing to take Pujols on a long-term deal. If you’re looking for guarantees, baseball’s not the place but Rasmus has done everything in the minors to suggest that he’s going to be a special major league player. It’s not a guarantee, but I’d take that bet.
I understand that
This pretty much semantical. I’m defining superstar as .910+ OPS (~20th or better in the league, top 1-2 CF’er in the league). Make more sense now?
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
Alex Gordon? Are you kidding?
The kid still has PLENTY of time to prove himself, and he’s been far from terrible thus far in the MLB.
boo cubs, hooray beer
He's two years in to mediocrity....
Guys put it together, but as it stands I don’t think he looks like a franchise changer.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
I still fully expect him to be a franchise changer
the kid has unreal talent, he will put it together
boo cubs, hooray beer
That's fine
But he’s 900 PAs into .254 .325 .418. That’s not a good start.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
Agree he hasn't been as good so far as many thought, but
“he’s 900 PAs into .254 .325 .418” isn’t a very accurate reflection of where he’s at. After a horrible first half (roughly; I don’t remember exactly when he started hitting) last year, he was much better in the second half. And this season he’s clearly been better than last season.
by BTown Birds fan on Jun 28, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
The best way to doctor the numbers
He hit .285 .330 .478 from June 7th on last year, he’s working on .266 .345 .431 this year. Like I said it’s early, but he’s shown nothing at the major league level that screams 1.000 OPS monster.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
That is still only 900 PAs in
Of the many things that APu has done in his career, you can add expecting others to be superstars right out of the box to the list
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
red baron
Nice entry today, I enjoyed it….. I paruse futureredbirds so I knew a bit about some of the guys you discussed.
The most intriguing part of the organization at this point is the outfield. It would be interesting to look at all the outfielders from the MLB level and the minor’s to see just what we have. Something is going to have to happen as STL just has too many outfielders but what makes it so interesting is not outfielder is a slam dunk. No one has a real history of any consistent health/production. It would be fun to be a fly on the wall in the player evaluation dept…. Is Mather for real? Is Jay for real? Is Robinson any good? Is Ludwick good enough to consistently contribute? Lots of questions on all the outfielders and there is not going to be room for all of them.
As far as the "cussing"
I’m not much on it either Red Baron, but I do throw around a little trashy talk from time to time, but I never put God’s name with it. In fact I cringe a little when someone does. I leave Him out of it because I think he is real and in the end will be my judge.
If you think about it, when you say God damn somebody or some thing. you are petitioning God to Damn a person or thing and really you don’t have that right…it’s beyond foolhardy…just my opinion…I’m no Angel.
with that said....
i am petitioning GOD to Damn the royals!
Why don't we get glausy eyed and put back some franklin's....
by punksoulbrutha on Jun 28, 2008 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
C'mon
it is a blog! Like if there is a God (god, gods, whatever), he, she, it or they really care about the goings on of a blog.
It was humor!
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Kozma
I saw him play last week….. It was only one game so I am not going to really say any thought on him is solid..
He does nothing that “wow’s” you…... He does seem to have really good hands but what SS doesn’t once you get to professional ball.
I saw him make a throw from the hole (not the deep hole) and his arm looked very average at best. Who knows, could be suffering from a bit of dead arm right now.
I was just a bit dissappointed in the fact that nothing really stood out in his game. Generally a guy drafted that high has some tool that stands out…
He is still young and like I said it was only one game so take it for what it’s worth.
Todd
Good post – I get the feeling that Jess Todd is being overvalued a bit here. Seems to me that he has put together a good year but I haven’t heard any scout/expert calling him anything but a future #3 or relief pitcher.
Off the wall trade idea: Ryan Ludwick straight up for Mark Ellis? Probably not the smartest trade in the world but if you could sign Ellis that would be awesome. This would open up a spot for Colby allow you to DFA Kennedy and give you “control” of the best 2B on the market this winter.
I don't see Beane wanting
Ludwick anyway. I might be wrong, but he doesn’t strike me as Beane’s type of player.
Ludwick is the type of player Beane trades and brings back a haul of prospects for
So I doubt he’d want to trade for him, unless he wants to turn around and flip him again.
boo cubs, hooray beer
Ludwick hadn't
been more than a platoon player her until recently. Seems to be a good chance he will be the odd man out when they bring up Rasmus or Mather again.
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on Jun 28, 2008 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Ludwick a platoon player?
The only reason Ludwick hasn’t been a starter before now is because of the injuries. When Rasmus comes up why would Ludwick be the odd man out over Skip?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 28, 2008 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Skip fits the
“lead off mold” – would be my only true guess. I wouldn’t say Luddy is overexposed right now, but he does need to start seeing some days off. He’s playing a lot of ball right now. Glaus would be in there as well (regarding days off)
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 28, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree on the days off stuff
but Colby also fits the leadoff mold. I would rather have Colby leading off than Skip. I just think you have the most productive player out there.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 28, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
Just so you’re aware, my comment was based on what you were replying to
” Ludwick hadn’t been more than a platoon player her[sic] until recently. Seems to be a good chance he will be the odd man out when they bring up Rasmus or Mather again.”
Colby wasn’t apart of the scenario posed.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 28, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I caught it
We agree. I just had to keep it going. I feel THAT strongly about Colby
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 28, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm a fan of both metrics
Ceiling and Performance.
Colby has the highest ceiling of any player in the OF for quite a while, and I want to expose it.
Mather has done nothing but bash the ball and short of some back spasm issues, continues to do so (look at what he’s done since going back down!).
Both should be on the ML team. Colby in Sept to setup for ‘09 and Mather should be there now.
While this post is on the Minor league talent, Skip should be considered trade bait as he’ll never get any higher than now, and selling high should be a good idea when we have OF glut
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 28, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Luddy's play time
It’s funny how we were screaming to have more of Lud earlier in the year when he was platooned more. Now, we are asking for less of Lud. It’s just interesting how it goes. I hope the 2 spot will cure his ills.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
I think Todd is nowhere near overvalued
The kid has an outside chance of moving from A ball to the Majors in ONE season. I don’t think he will make it all the way up, but he does have the chance. How in the world can that be overvalued?
Rasmus is my only untouchable. Garcia and Todd are almost there.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 28, 2008 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Disagree
I think scouts/experts are frequently wrong, particularly when it comes to players that match Todd’s profile – ie he is too small. Yeah – but he throws low to mid nineties and no one can hit him, so who cares? This is why Oakland is consistently good because they ignore these stupid criticisms of players and just look at whether the guy can play ball. I think Todd is potentially still undervalued by many people because of his size, though I think the organization knows perfectly well what they have and I would be extremely surprised to see him moved for anyone.
isn't he
oswaltian in size (or hamptonian)?
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!
Raz
is the only one I’d consider untouchable, on the grounds that anyone who doesn’t have “potential HoFer” on his dossier should be considered expendable if, by expending him, someone who does have HoF potential could be obtained. None of the other guys in the system have that, as far as I can see.
I would put Rasmus, Todd, and Garcia
in the “untouchable” category—or, at least, as close to untouchable as you get. I’d be willing to move anyone else. Like others, I’d be willing to consider these three, as well, in the right move, but it would have to be perfect. Bruce and Kershaw are probably the only 2 players I’d even consider moving Rasmus for. And I certainly wouldn’t consider moving him, or either of the other two for a LOOGY, an SP to help us win the division this year, or anyone who wouldn’t be a cheap Cardinal for, at least, the next 4 years.
If we could move Todd for a good, young SS who is ready to play now and will be above average for the next 5-6 years, I’d consider that but not for Jarrod Washburn or Vicente Padilla. I wouldn’t move any of them for Damaso Marte or any other veteran…period.
This team can contend this year, but we cannot start mortgaging the next 6 years in order to do it.
I think Luhnow would agree with you
I think Luhnow would go bonkers if any of those three were to be moved for anything short of what you stated above . He doesn’t get elevated to his position for the Cardinals to then go and throw the gameplan right out the window.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 28, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
The competiton for pitching
will be extreme in July. Hi profile pitchers are available for top prospects and the obvious salary bail.
Considering recent moves and events, do you think ownership will be taking on additional salary? Do you think management will be requesting player assistance considering their use of “available talent”.
I would really like to here some of you tell me what Mark Mulder’s agent is telling him what his best career moves might be? Also explain this one…... “Pienero had to bite the bullet to protect a weak and tired bullpen”......... Management activates an inexperienced and injured Mulder to fill the slot.
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on Jun 28, 2008 12:08 PM EDT reply actions
I didn't get the whole
“the bullpen’s shorthanded” stuff either. We had just called up Mark Mulder and Brad Thompson (though maybe Thompson wasn’t there yet) and either could’ve easily given us 3 innings w/o a problem.
I think TLR was 'resetting' the bullpen
meaning, he was only going to use 1 pitcher out of the pen so that everyone else could be used like a normal bullpen. Losing to the Royals is rough, but we will need this bullpen fresh and ready next week for New York and Chicago.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 28, 2008 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
can’t say salary would be any deterrent. A lot of money comes off the books next year (40 mil + iirc), lots of cost controlled players abound. If salary needed to increase short term they would just adjust next years mark to accommodate.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 28, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Untouchables
Every group of fans from every team want the same thing. They want their promising prospects to be untouchable. They also want to package a half dozen or more of their remaining minor league mediocrity and ship them off to another team for one of their stars. I’m afraid it doesn’t work that way. And oh, by the way, there is no Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy. If the Cards want to go for it and get, say a front line starter, guys like Rasmus and Anderson will have to be put into play. G.M.’s understand the financial windfall involved in making the playoffs. That’s why some team will pony up for Sabathia or someone else of that caliber. If it’s the Cubs or the Brewers, then I guess there is always next year for Card fans.
the reverse logic on that works as well
You don’t go throwing away all of your best young talent on the hope you will make it to the WS and get that windfall. If that happens you throw away your future. You possibly end up sending out teams that win 60-70 games and draw a million and a half fans a year instead of the 3M + that you draw now.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 28, 2008 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
When faced with 4-6 potential playoff years with a solid contributor among the team, I’ll trade one playoff chase (if really that person is the difference maker, which I highly doubt) for those 4-6 years of the future.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 28, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
We agree on that
I just don’t see that type of difference maker available. I don’t believe pitchers are that type of difference maker and I would never the top two or three prospects for one.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 28, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
well
damn sure when you’re talking about a rental, as the top post to this was referencing. That’s quite silly. Just think, we’d be +6 (at least) in games if we had a better bullpen, and that shouldn’t cost top prospects.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 28, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
One team's "mediocrity"
is another’s stopgap solution until the stud at AA is ready, and yet another’s significant upgrade on a lousy major-league player whom the farm system is having no luck in replacing. Players aren’t of equal value to all teams—a point that the stathead crowd (in which I include myself) often ignores.
I’m not sure that any of these guys but Raz are likely to be more than “mediocrities” in the Show. However, several are showing enough that, while they’re not untouchables, they should only be traded if the deal is clearly beneficial for the Cardinals—which is not the same thing as “bad for the other team.”
by StanTheManFan on Jun 28, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't watch the game last night
I assume it didn’t go very well from the game thread last night.
However, I did get the chance to watch Sabathia in hidef and even if the dude is 3 bills, he is just plain nasty. He is completely locked in as a pitcher right now.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 28, 2008 12:55 PM EDT reply actions
Just Curious
excluding the “gettable” clause (are they gettable?)
If you had to had to give up the same players to Oak to get Harden, or Cle to get Sabba’. Which would you do?
After watching Harden pitch 11k 2H 0ER ball against Philly Thursday I personally would rather have him instead. All due to that precious option year he has for next year. Yes, even with the injury history.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 28, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd take Harden over
Sabathia. I wouldn’t give up the same players but if I had to chose which pitcher to devote efforts to in a trade, it’d be Harden.
Harden is unavailable though since the As are doing their damnedest to win the AL West.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 28, 2008 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
hell to the no HL
i’m done trading with the A’s. at least when it comes to getting pitchers with recent & far to often health issues. we’ve already been burned by billy once, i don’t want that to happen again.
but thankfully like you said he’s not going any where because they are winning.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
guess we can rule out Det on your logic too, Maroth played like shit. Hell, in the past 5 years alone I can name a few more.
Walt was the aggressor in that trade, maybe your angst should weigh more there :)
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 28, 2008 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I just don't get this
are we that concerned that Beane is just that much smarter than Mo that we’ll get hoodwinked again? Do we feel like Beane didn’t play fair b/c he didn’t tell us that Haren was going to be great and Mulder, well, wasnt? That’s not his job. Beane won that round. Good for him. Bad for us. Do you (and I know you’re not alone w/ this sentiment) refuse to play checkers, chess, pool, ping-pong, basketball or whatever with someone who beat you the last time out? Should the Cards refuse to take the field tonight b/c we’re 0-4 against the Royals this year?
You’re not going to win every trade, just as you’re not going to win every game. Beane dealt with us honestly and fairly and won. So what? If there’s a viable trade out there, Mo would be derilect in his duties as GM to NOT trade w/ Beane simply b/c Walt got beaten last time.
no htown, i don't think MO should stay away from the A's
but he should stay away from pitchers like mulder & harden who appear to be very fragile. that’s all i’m saying.
but that’s how we got Carp one might say. well you’d be wrong. we didnt trade 3 good players for him, he was a free agent signing. and we were lucky with him. but last i checked, he needed TJ last year & is still on the DL. so our luck could be running out.
you are correct you can’t win every trade. but that one was just so bad. i’m pretty sure from listening to MO that he’s learned a very valuable lesson from it & will be more careful in the future. and thats all i can ask of him.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Don't worry
Billy Beane is stepping down next year!
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 28, 2008 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Trading prospects scares me.........
Perhaps I am too squeamish, but I just cringe thinking about trading Rasmus, Todd, Garcia, Motte, Anderson for anything…...especially pitchers…......from the American league…....
That said, I think the guy that has to be most movable is Anderson, if we could get something really good for him, and soon. Otherwise, wouldn’t he be a heck of an upgrade on Larue, and cheap, even for a back-up for a couple seasons?
With Ludwick slumping, Duncan faltering, Barton’s future unsure,and Ank’s ba below what I had hoped, moving Colby seems like a really bad idea, especially since he was/is? projected to be with the big club next year. I really like the sound of Skip, Ank, Rasmus, Ludwick as your core of ofers.
And with so many years of Duncan and Larussa using other teams castoffs, even guys that were good for us like Woody, I like the thought of developing some guys of our own.
I kind of think that there is not a real emergency with the midd IF, either, if only Tony would play more Ryan at SS, and Miles at 2b.
So, said all that to say, for a while anyway, at least till we see what we’re gonna get with Carpenter (trying hard not to mention Clement and Mulder) and when Wainer’s getting back, I’d kind of like the team to stand pat, let some players develop, and see how many games they can win.
But I might just have too weak a stomach for trading away prospects.
I think you hit the nail
on the head on all accounts. I think Rasmus, Perez, Garcia, and Todd are pretty close to untouchable.
I agree that only a deal for a player like Bruce would make sense for Rasmus, and at the same time, Rasmus is better defensively and runs better. No doubt Bruce is a better overall hitter at this point, but an argument could be made that Rasmus has a higher upside than Bruce because he’s a 5 tool player.
Perez is also extremely valuable to a team who will be without a legit closer next season. He’s cheap and should be capable of filling that role nicely. Trading him would subsequently cost the team 8-10 mil in cash to bring in a FA closer…wouldn’t make sense.
Garcia has struggled more recently with control in AAA and I hope there isn’t any arm problems building up. That has to be a question mark with him based on last year and I wonder if he’ll have the durability to be a front of the rotation starter. I think his stuff is excellent though, and I would find it difficult to believe equal value would come back in a trade.
Todd is the biggest asterick of the bunch. He’s dominated every level of play, but many still view him as a setup guy instead of a starter. Obviously his value is less in that role. I like him for a Middle reliever on our current team down the stretch with the opportunity to start next season (a rotation of Wainwright, Carp, Wellemyer, Garcia, and Todd seems pretty formidable and isn’t overly expensive either, leaving us with some cash to get a few bats to help our anemic offense). It would be hard to trade him in what is still a rebuilding year knowing that he is very close to MLB ready.
Mortenson is close to untouchable, but the right deal could move him, especially in the offseason. I think the Cards liken him a lot to Wainwright in a tall lanky kid who may take a little longer to develop, but is capable of being a solid middle of the rotation guy or even better.
Kozma is movable as well. With a lack of depth at the position, I think the Cards will look externally this offseason and bring in a FA like Furcal, Cabrera, or even Renteria if available. That means Kozma is at least 3-5 years away from fitting on this team, giving the club ample time to draft or groom another SS prospect to fill the shoes once one of these players leaves.
Anderson is easily the most movable player on the list because of Molina. Its becoming more and more difficult to believe that Anderson would become a regular on the Cardinals as a catcher. I think the Cards would have already moved him to 2B or 3B, but his value in a trade is greater as a C. The fact that he’s still playing there is a signal that he’s movable.
Bottom line is in todays trade market, a deal involving Anderson, Jay, Mortenson, and could bring in an all-star caliber player easily. Value of young players is tremendous because it allows middle to small market teams to spend on top players because their young guys are cheap. A player like Holliday or Crawford could probably be had for that group of prospects.
Anyone else get the distinct feeling
we will see Mulder in the 3rd inning today as the mop-up guy?
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 28, 2008 2:14 PM EDT reply actions
I don’t.
Pulling for Boggs, “needs 7 runs of support” or not.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 28, 2008 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
not me
I think Boggs goes 5 tonight. I don’t think he’s great, and he’s not quite ready, but his stuff is good enough to compete. I’m saying 5 IP, 3 ER tonight.
when he gets that changeup, he has a solid toolset that can stay on the ML level.
sadly, though I have to lean on when. because now it’s not at all there.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 28, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I have a complete lack of confidence in our
infield to make plays on the 15 ground balls he will give up today.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 28, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Aaron Miles at SS
Chris Duncan at 1B does not instill confidence. Pujols and Izturis replacing each of those is what has made the defense good all year.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 28, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Profanity
The long preamble explaining the profanity, followed by the profanity, reminds me very much of something I would have done when I was 16. Not only does it not add to an interesting post, but it detracts from it. Why do it? In this day and age, nothing you say or type can carry any shock value; it’s just tired.
Back to baseball, I would place Motte on the “all but untouchable” list. The guy throws serious heat and he’s so early in the learning process that he may be unbelievable in a year or two.
So, a better beginning
would just have been “goddamn fucking royals”?
Dude, this isn’t English class. Don’t throw sideways insults – “I would have done when I was 16”. Stick to baseball, and constructive arguement and debate.
I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck
It read as an attempt at humor for me, not as an attempt to shock
and it was rather fucking funny
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Gracias, matty.
Both for the defense and for understanding the point of the whole thing.
Why don't you just make like a tree, and get out of here?
by the red baron on Jun 28, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Context for trade ideas.
Here’s a list of all of the trades made in 2007.
When it comes to the sort of deals being considered here, where is the closest approximation to a “Skip Schumaker” or a “Ryan Ludwick” being traded? Or what was the cost last year for a LOOGY?
To throw my name in, I am always in favor of trading any prospects (including Rasmus) for good players who can help the St. Louis Cardinals win baseball games…
Boomer.
we're not a franchise that has
to horde prospects just because it’s fashionable. People act like anybody in the cards farm system is the second coming of christ and wouldn’t trade even for a Juiced up Bonds.
We’re not the marlins. The only thing I care about are World Series. I would have killed my self if I was a Braves fan.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
I am just glad
we didn’t feel the need to trade a minor league 3B in the 2000 offseason. It is just plain freakin crazy to trade potential superstar players for someone who will help you this year only.
Do you forget what baseball was like here in the late 80s and early 90s.
The economics of baseball have changed a lot in the last few years, you can’t go out and trade for players as successfully as this team did when it built the core for the 2000-2006 run.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
trading pitching
from the year’s start to the most recent shellacking by the royals with cheese, i have been waiting for the wheels to fall off of this cardinals team. it seems that they are depending on players who are performing above their heads . . . ludwick and wellemeyer in particular. it seems to me that eventually (as much as it pains me to say it) the cardinals will be watching the cubs and brewers pull away. if and when that happens, i would be looking to deal welley, pineiro, or lohse . . . and ludwick. i don’t know if cardinal nation would perceive it as a white flag trade but i don’t think it is the year for the cards and they could get some important help for years to come . . .
"I wouldn’t have seen it if I hadn’t believed it.’" ~Shannon
Brewers have no chance of pulling away
not with that rotation or bullpen. If they trade for Sabathia however, that could change things.
boo cubs, hooray beer
while the brew/cubs getting sabba would be hard to swallow
the cubs would have to give up some power as they aren’t prospect heavy, and the brew would be giving up a few (or a lot, if the bidding really flies with NY/TB/Brew/Cubs getting in the mix) prospects would help us down the road. Which is a good thing
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 28, 2008 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Even at that
the only thing at the MLB level they have of value to the Indians is Soto and I don’t see them giving up their catcher for 3 months of Sabathia.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 28, 2008 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
i kind of do
that team & city is so desperate to get to the WS, that i see them trading any one & every one they can to make it happen.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
stranger things have happened
just because you wouldn’t doesn’t mean the Cubs won’t. I agree with gdm, you have to think of the mindset of possibly being on the brink of winning it all for the first time in one hundred years
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I don't think the cubs would go quite that far
just to acquire C.C. Soto is way too big a part of their offense and I’m sure Hendry recoginizes fully the struggles that Lee has had this year. (he’s already at an all-time high for GIPD and is on pace to set the ML record for a season). Especially since they really don’t have a plan B for catcher unless you consider playing Henry Blanco everyday a viable option. Of course, they pay his ass like an everyday catcher, so why not I guess?
As much as I hate the Cubs
and (to a much lesser degree) the Brewers , I have no problem with either one of them going out and getting CC, it hurts them in the long run. That is something I like…a lot.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Brew/Cubs
hendry could easily be motivated to pay up for Sabathia or Burnett by the deadline
the brewers aren’t going to pull away, but if Parra and McClung keep on pace and Russell Branyan keeps on playing this way. What’s gotten into him?
by greenwichvillagecard on Jun 28, 2008 4:00 PM EDT reply actions
Dye hit a bomb
think the Braves ever regret trading him away? Having an OF of Dye and Jones for all those years would have been scary.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 28, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
and a 37-pitch, 3-run 4th inning
for vasquez. Bleh.
"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN
Ha
I saw that earlier and laughed. Btw, he’s getting batted all over the place right now. Lou just tore him a new asshole on the mound, and he then gave up a run scoring double down the line to Cabrera. He ain’t foolin’ anyone.
How bout that Alexei Ramirez kid...
That we showed no interest in over the offseason. Not only is he hitting .300 & has looked pretty good defensively I believe, but he also just put the Pale Hose up by two runs over the Bad Guys.
by Pujols Is A God on Jun 28, 2008 4:41 PM EDT reply actions
Sigh
I banged the Alexei Ramirez drum pretty hard. I’d take him over Cesar any day of the week. He’s dirt cheap too.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 28, 2008 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
as did I
between letting Edgar V Gonzalez go, not picking up Keppinger from the Royals when he was available, and ignoring Alexei, we let a lot of potential cheap MI talent slip away in the off-season.
"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN
He scored the run
was knocked in by Cabrera.
I think the question marks around him was that he didn’t really have a defined position and was extremely young. Plus, it’s really hard to know anything solid about Cuban players, even the one’s that played in the WBC.
For the record, it has been noted that the White Sox actually out bid the cubs for Fukudome, but he turned them down because of two reasons. 1) they already had a right fielder (Dye) and he didn’t want to displace any starters, 2) whatever team he went to, he wanted to be that franchise’s 1st Japanese ballplayer and since the Sox had already had two (Taguchi and Mr. Zero) that ruled out the Sox. Anyway, after getting turned down by Fuku, the Sox went out and traded for Nick Swisher and signed Alexi Ramirez.
FWIW, I think I’d rather have Swisher and Ramirez over Fukudome especially since both of those guys combined make less money than Fukudome. Oh, and they’re both younger too (espcially Ramirez).
This made me smile
From MLBTradeRumors.com:
“Gossip item: the Mets could have had Kyle Lohse for what the Cardinals are paying ($4.25MM), only Omar Minaya passed.”
Quote from Tony
“Offensively, we’ve got to get more going,” manager Tony La Russa said after a 7-2 loss on Friday.
I agree Tony but let’s think about the line-ups you put out there. Having a batting order of MLB’s mosty streakiest hitters(Ankiel/Glaus/Ludwick) behind Albert and a few that are lucky to get one hit a night (Duncan/Kennedy) it’s going to be hard to be a scoring machine.
and yet somehow
we are #6 in the NL in runs scored per game and #3 overall in OPS+.
"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN
I saw Todd pitch at the U of A
Funnily enough, nobody really thought too much of him; we were all giddy over this guy.
Me too, but
he was born and raised in St. Louis; would have been cool to see the both of them in Cardinal red.
Meh, the hometown thing doesn't do anything for me
I just want whoever has the most talent
boo cubs, hooray beer
He's got talent, too
just unlucky enough to get injured in his first year.
I don’t recall him having an injury history in his college career; likely just bad luck.
I remember alot of draftnicks
were really down on Schmidt prior to the draft last year.
boo cubs, hooray beer
Schmidt
He’s got a very abrupt finish to his delivery, which does not allow your arm to slow itself down, a necessity for a high-stress action like pitching and tends to affect the elbow. I would imagine that played a role.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jun 28, 2008 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Grace did say he was the best fielding AL 3B
I am not sure he is better than Rolen
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I don't know how Rolen is doing this year
haven’t seen any Blue Jays games. But i’d imagine he’s still better than Crede
boo cubs, hooray beer
UZR had him killing EVERYONE
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
Ohaiyo gozaimasu, I followed the untouchable thread with interest. Has anyone
seen much of Salas? His numbers are impressive. Does he merit serious consideration as a force at the major league level?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Salas has been struggling a bit lately
but I still think he needs a promotion to AAA, to see if he can still fool people at that level
boo cubs, hooray beer
Izzy isn't going on the DL
After examination and consulation with Doc Paletta, Isringhausen (strained ligament) has been outfitted with a knee brace and they’ll try it that way for now, to see how he does with it… so no roster moves today in KC….
Izzy thinks his mechanics may even improve with the stability provided by the brace…
As for the lineups:
Schumaker 7
Miles 4
Pujols 3
Ankiel 8
Glaus 5
Ludwick 9
Duncan DH
Molina 2
Ryan 6
(Boggs 1)
DeJesus 7
Aviles 6
Gordon 5
Guillen dh
Grudzielanek 4
Teahen 9
Olivo 2
Gload 3
Gathright 8
(Davies 1)
(Per Bernie M)
boo cubs, hooray beer
Bombskies off Marmol by Quentin
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
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