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the market for pitchers

annoying loss last night; the cards had four separate leads (2-0, 4-2, 6-5, and 7-6) and blew them all. that’s how it goes sometimes; the tigers are playing well, they were at home, and they have a lineup with no holes. tip your cap and move on. the good news: jess todd was dominant in the double A all-star game, striking out 5 of the 7 all-stars he faced. but his teammates, fernando salas and luke gregerson, coughed up 5 runs in the 9th and 10th innings to lose the game.

toward the bottom of joe strauss’s long chat yesterday, somebody asked who the cards might go after at the trade deadline. strauss responded:

Pitching is the priority. The possibilities for a starter include: Padilla, Bedard, Sabathia, Wolf, Washburn, Lowe and Batista.

note that he says "possibilities include" --- ie, it’s a partial list of targets, not a comprehensive one. but since strauss is naming them, we can safely assume the cards are at least mildly in pursuit of these guy. let’s take a look at them --- click on the pitcher's name for his career stats.

  • vicente padilla: making $11m this year, owed $12m next year, with a $12m option for 2010 ($1.75m buyout). having a very nice comeback year --- 10-3 record, 3.74 era. it’s his first sub-4.00 era since 2003 (when he pitched for the phillies), and only his second completely healthy season. last year he missed 10 starts with a triceps injury, the second time in 3 years that particular ailment landed him on the dl; this year he has a very sick daughter back home in nicaragua and might need to spend some time with her (he missed a start earlier this month for that reason). the cards were interested in him during the 2006 free-agent shop meet; he throws hard and would likely thrive in the st louis ballpark, which quashes home runs (padilla’s main vulnerability). his k rate is healthy at 6.2 this year, and fangraphs has his fastball holding steady at 92 mph. one other interesting note from the fangraphs pitch-type data: padilla has basically become a two-pitch pitcher, throwing fastball-slider 90 percent of the time this year and all but ditching the curveball; maybe the triceps thing has something to do with that. endurance is definitely an issue --- he has pitched into the 7th inning only 6 times in 16 starts. and padilla’s FIP is 5.15, which gives serious pause --- because (as readers of this blog surely know) FIP is a better predictor of future performance than ERA is. the high FIP is primarily an effect of padilla’s high home-run rate; with the change of ballparks and leagues, that should come down a tick. in addition to the high price and the injury history, padilla has been known to have a temper. risky, but there’s clear upside.
  • jarrod washburn: your average soft-tossing lefty, averages 87-88 mph w/ the fastball but only throws it about half the time, using an assortment of off-speed stuff to fool hitters --- or try to, anyway. like padilla, he’s under contract for one more guaranteed year, at $10.3m. he’s having a lousy year so far (2-7, 5.52), but that’s due almost entirely to a .344 batting average on balls in play; we can expect that figure to regress to the mean, ie to come down. on almost every other important indicator --- FIP, k rate, bb rate, hr rate, strand rate, gb/fb ratio --- washburn is right at his career norms; he has yielded a higher than usual line-drive rate this year, but that is probably a reflection more of bad luck than of declining skill. by all indications, he is still throwing it as well as he did the last few years, when he reliably posted league-averagish ERAs. he pitches in front of a poor defense, on the majors’ worst team; with the more capable st louis gloves behind him, he might get better results. he also has no injury issues to speak of, although he is at best a 6-inning starter (hasn’t thrown 200 innings since 2003). because of his contract, his bad numbers, and the mariners’ need to shed payroll, i would expect washburn to be available pretty cheap; if that proves true, he might be a good solution for the short run. but i don’t like the idea of having to pay him $10m next year. the cards might do just as well to call up jaime garcia or jess todd.
  • miguel batista: washburn’s teammate in seattle, and pitching even worse --- 3-9, 6.26 era. he has stopped throwing strikes --- walk rate is 6.5 bb per 9 innings, nearly twice his career average. he’s owed $9m next year; i don’t see how he’s better than boggs, thompson, or reyes, and he’s much more expensive. pass.
  • derek lowe: in his walk year; 35 years old, healthy, very durable, very steady. he’s not quite as good away from dodger stadium --- era on the road has been about 0.75 higher than at home over the last 3 years, in the aggregate --- but st louis has a pitcher’s park, too, so maybe that’s a wash. also has a longstanding platoon split, has trouble w/ lefties. his gb/fb is down significantly this year, although still very high; velocity looks steady, FIP is solid, k / bb / hr rates all look good. he’s the same pitcher as looper, only quite a bit better; i would not expect the dodgers to give him up for nothing --- probably would require us to part w/ bryan anderson or the equivalent. steep cost for a two-month rental, but of the pitchers we have looked at thus far lowe would be the surest stabilizer of the rotation.
  • randy wolf: on a one-year, $4.75m deal; is 5-6 with a 4.09 era. wolf hasn’t missed a start this year and is pitching very well at the moment (7 quality starts in last 8 outings, 3.10 era over that stretch), but his era away from petco park is 5.84, vs 2.52 at home. his k rate has actually increased since his return from tj surgery in 2006, although he did miss half of last year w/ a bad shoulder. like lowe he could be an impact acquisition, but also like lowe he won’t come cheap; we’ll have to give up an important prospect for 11 starts from this guy. and, unlike lowe, he probably won’t be a type A free agent after the season, so the cards wouldn’t even get an extra draft pick out of the deal to make up for the loss of whichever prospect they trade.

that brings us to sabathia and bedard. no need to look at the numbers; they’re both great pitchers, and either would turn the cards into title contenders. but i think they’re both going to be too costly for the cards to consider. both are pending free agents --- sabathia will probably get zito / santana money or close to it, and while bedard won’t be as pricey, somebody will still pay him crazy money. so if the cards acquired either one, he’d strictly be a rental. but because of their marquee value, these pitchers both would probably require more than one significant prospect --- a prohibitive price for a two-month rental. how can we be sure it would cost this much? i direct you to this post from last year, when the mark-buehrle-to-cardinals talk was at its height. i found, first of all, that pitchers of that stature almost never change teams midseason; in the rare cases where they do, the acquiring team inevitably has to give up 3 or 4 big-time prospects. it cost the mets 4 of their best prospects for one season of johan santana; for half a season of sabathia or bedard, the cards would have to give up at least 2 of their top guys. anybody want to deal garcia and mortensen, or todd and anderson, for 2 months of c.c.? not me.

i think the best option on this list (and, again, it's not an all-inclusive list) is derek lowe --- he’ll cost one big-time prospect, but the cardinal farm system has improved to the point where that’s an affordable expense. wolf would be a very good pickup too, and might not cost quite as much talent as lowe; padilla probably would cost less talent than either of the foregoing, but he carries more risk and a heavier financial cost. washburn is probably a better short-term fix than his numbers would suggest, but his 2009 salary is burdensome. batista should not be considered under any circumstances.

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I agree

When I read the list, the first thing I thought was “the only two on there I like are Derek Lowe and Randy Wolf.” Big Dunc would drool over Lowe’s sinker, and I think he’d be a great addition to the rotation. I’ve always liked Randy Wolf, so maybe that’s why I’m high on him, but as lb mentioned, he’s having a good season. Would take Lowe over him though, by far.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 26, 2008 9:11 AM EDT   0 recs

Agreed on Wolf

When Wolf was with the Phillies, some fans started the wolf pack (bunch of folks in the bleachers wearing werewolf masks). They would do some choreagraphed/synchronized stuff when Wolf struck people out. It was pretty hilarious. I’ve always liked Wolf and had never heard anything negative about him. He should have a fear good years left?

I think Lowe’s price will be too high. LA is only 3 back and they play in NL West . Penny is not doing too well this season. I just don’t see any reasons why LA would want to trade him right now. Don’t get me wrong. I would love to have Lowe, but I don’t think it could get done.

BTW, anyone else catch Carl Edwards on the Sox/D-backs game? He said he started doing back flips because of the Oz. That was neat to hear.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Jun 26, 2008 2:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It would be nice...

to add a lefty in the rotation, just to change things up a bit.

I think Lowe would be the best option just because of his Type A FA status as well as his postseason experience and durability. Wolf still seems fragile to me, so the rental period may not even be the 2 months.

I still think the biggest need is a LOOGY, not a starter.

by Jumsy on Jun 26, 2008 9:14 AM EDT   0 recs

bedard or sabathia

could be a ridiculous LOOGY.

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on Jun 26, 2008 11:37 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Lowe

Perfect fit for the pitching coach’s philosophy.

I wonder, though, if this is a window into the organization’s expectations for Wainwright and Mulder. I don’t blame them as I don’t have any expectations for Mulder either. We could funnel his salary and Encarnacion’s into a decent SP next season and the next.

by bgh on Jun 26, 2008 9:16 AM EDT   0 recs

I agree

I’d like to see us go after Lowe, especially if the Dodgers are completely out of it.

Lowe’s done well in the playoffs before and is typically dependable in big game situations. Plus, he’ll be a stable member of our rotation and like you said, he pitches just like our coaches preach. Hopefully a ton of teams won’t be wanting him, but I don’t see it being that easy to pry him away.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 26, 2008 11:05 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Bedard

actually isn’t a free agent until after next season. Even so…pass. He’d cost Rasmus + as a result.

Of those mentioned, Lowe and Wolf are the only ones I’d be interested in. I have no interest whatsoever in paying Padilla an extra $13.75 M after this season. His career has been far too mercurial.

Washburn and Batista … pass. They’re not good and owed $9 M + for next year? That’s crazy talk! May as well go w/ Boggs or call up Garcia or Reyes. No, shouldn’t really put Garcia in the rotation this year—we need to limit his innings but he’d be as good or better than those clowns.

The problem w/ trading for Lowe is that the Dodgers likely would have no interest in Anderson. That means what…2 of Garcia, Mortensen, and Todd. Pass. If we could just give up Mortensen and, say, John Jay or even Mortensen, Jay, and Reyes. Maybe throw in Duncan instead of one. I doubt it though. If the Dodgers decide to trade Lowe, they’ll do better than Clayton Mortensen as the best prospect they receive in return.

by houstoncardinal on Jun 26, 2008 9:17 AM EDT   0 recs

bedard

i have a feeling that he and duncan would not get along. in baltimore, he earned a reputation for his aloofness, which continued even during his monster ‘07 season. now i’m not going to guess at the interpersonal relationships between duncan and his pitchers, but judging by past personalities that have come through the organization, i really don’t think bedard would be a good fit.

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on Jun 26, 2008 11:43 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I heard though the grape vine

I heard Shawn Chacon might be available now…....

by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 26, 2008 9:17 AM EDT   0 recs

I wouldn't really call it a grape vine, more mainstream news...

NO WAY to Chacon. The guy is having some mental issues (based on what I’ve read about the incident). I could see the Yankees taking him to recreate some of that magic he provided not to long ago, but not likely.

by Jumsy on Jun 26, 2008 9:20 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I hate replying to my own comments, but...

wouldn’t you love to see Chacon get picked up by the Yankees and have him choke and throw George and Hank Steinbrenner to the ground at once, a la The Undertaker’s double choke slam?

by Jumsy on Jun 26, 2008 9:25 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Chacon is terrible

we should have no interest regardless of yesterday’s incident—which (genius GM) Ed Wade provoked by yelling and cussing at Chacon for no reason. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not excusing Chacon’s actions, I’m just saying that Wade decided to yell and cuss at the man to tell him to “look in the mirror.” Was that really necessary? They should’ve just sent him to the pen and let him cool off for a couple of days rather than pouring gasoline on that lit fuse.

by houstoncardinal on Jun 26, 2008 9:26 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Be careful

You’re believing one side of the story.

It’s possible Wade wasn’t really yelling, wasn’t really provoking him. And judging by the fact that even Chacon admitted to being resistant to going into Wade’s office, Chacon was a bit ornery himself.

Even if the story went exactly as Chacon said (which I doubt), his action was still inexcusable.

by mojowo11 on Jun 26, 2008 10:38 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Not so fast...

From what I heard on a radio show this morning, two other Astros players have corroborated Chacon’s story. He had no business physically harming Wade, but Wade had no business cursing him out, repeatedly, after he had been told to stop, TWICE! Regardless of whether Wade has a point or not, acting like he did is totally unprofessional.

Chacon has been known to have a short fuse in the past, so it’s possible Wade was trying to bait him into doing something, and Chacon put himself in a bad situation by not walking away. That still doesn’t excuse Wade’s behavior, as if his mishandling of this ballclub wasn’t a bad enough crime already.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 26, 2008 10:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

look - Chacon was completely wrong. There is no excuse for what he did. However, why did Wade want him to go to the office in the first place. My guess is so that they could berate Chacon - again! Was that going to help the club? No. All it would’ve done is made Wade feel better and made a bad situation worse.

When Chacon refused to go to Cooper’s office, Wade should’ve suspended him right then. When Wade started yelling and cursing it was only to make him feel better, not to better the club or Chacon in any way. He was pouring gasoline on a lit fuse. That is totally unprofessional.

He didn’t deserve what happened to him, but he shouldn’t be terrribly surprised by it either. Wade’s not an innocent victim in this.

by houstoncardinal on Jun 26, 2008 11:15 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Why? Because he grabbed Ed Wade by the neck and through Wade to the ground?

From espn.com:

Chacon, upset after getting demoted to the bullpen over the weekend, told the Houston Chronicle this problem began when Wade saw him in the dining room before the game against Texas. Wade wanted to meet with Chacon in manager Cecil Cooper’s office, the pitcher said.

“I sat down to eat and Ed Wade came to me and very sternly said, ‘You need to come with me to the office,’” Chacon said. “I said, ‘For what?’ I said, ‘I don’t want to go to the office with you and Cooper.’ And I said, ‘You can tell me whatever you got to tell me right here.’ He’s like, ‘Oh, you want me to tell you right here?’ And I said, ‘Yeah.’ I’m not yelling. I’m calm.”

Chacon said things went downhill from there.

“He started yelling and cussing,” Chacon said of Wade, according to a story on the Chronicle’s Web site. “I’m sitting there and I said to him very calmly, ‘Ed, you need to stop yelling at me.’ Then I stood up and said, ‘You better stop yelling at me.’ I stood up. He continued and was basically yelling.”

Chacon said that after Wade told him he needed to “look in the mirror,” it got worse.

“So at that point I lost my cool and I grabbed him by the neck and threw him to the ground. I jumped on top of him,” he said. “Words were exchanged.”

by bgh on Jun 26, 2008 9:22 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

My favorite part

After grabbing Astros General Manager Ed Wade by the neck and throwing him to the ground, Chacon said, “Maybe it shouldn’t have happened”

You know, like “maybe I shouldn’t have had that extra cup of coffee,” or “maybe I should have brought an umbrella with me to work because it looks like its going to rain.”

by Ray Lankford on Jun 26, 2008 9:45 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

"words were exchanged"

i’m trying to picture chacon throwing wade to the ground, jumping him, and “exchanging words”.

by mattybobo on Jun 26, 2008 11:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

How much ya wanna bet

those “words” liberally quoted the late, great George Carlin’s “Seven Words You Can Never Say On Television”?

“You’re a *,, *!”

“No, YOU’RE a *, , **!!!”

“(Gack! Gargle! Choke!)”

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 26, 2008 11:43 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

All Depends

It all depends on what it costs to get Bedard. He has electric stuff but the price would most likely be too high. After him only Lowe and Wolf are at all interesting, but again I think the cost would be too high for short term rentals. I would really like to see the Cards add a quality lefty for the bullpen instead of one of these starters.

by sstabs on Jun 26, 2008 9:34 AM EDT   0 recs

I wouldn't mind a MI that doesn't carry a purse.

This team has a bunch of “what if’s”, however, I think it’ll take more than just a B.A. pitcher to turn Wins added into Marginal Wins that would get into the playoffs.

Currently BP has the cards at almost a 500 team per 3rd Order Wins, that obv. won’t make the playoffs. Once Pu, Carp, Mulder, Iz2, Wainer, Colonel, comes back, how good will the team really be? I don’t think we can make that assessment on who we need until then really, but I’d be willing to bet just adding an Ace probably won’t get the job done…it’ll do wonders for the Playoff Secret Sauce formula, but I think the Loogy and MI ladies are too much of a hole to be filled with a starting pitcher or at least anybody less than CC.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jun 26, 2008 9:34 AM EDT   0 recs

That MI has pretty much saved our collective asses the past week.. just saying.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 26, 2008 12:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yes, adjusted

the Miles critics have had to plug it for the last few days

by the Tewk on Jun 26, 2008 11:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

it's not a purse... it's european!

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on Jun 26, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

are we rebuilding?

if we are rebuilding, why would we give up prospects? i really hate the thought of giving up a top flight prospect who may produce for years at a cost controlled level for a 35 year old pitcher or a pitcher we get for 11 starts. if anything, i think we should be selling high on certain people to get more prospects…

by UNCDubya on Jun 26, 2008 9:39 AM EDT   0 recs

Rebuilding? I hope not.

Why would we want to rebuild when we currently have the 2nd best record in the NL?

I know that was the plan before the year, but I’m not willing to toss out the first half of the year simply because that was the general consensus in February and March. The only reason to rebuild is so that you can put together a team capable of having one of the top records in the league and make the playoffs. We’re already doing that.

by birdo rojo on Jun 26, 2008 10:06 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pitching Middle Class

I would not be in favor of taking on Padilla, Washburn or Bautista’s contract for next year. I don’t believe in paying for middle class pitching. I’m all for Paying top dollar for front end pitchers, but in my opinion Jarrod Washburn doesn’t represent a 10 million dollar improvement over what the Cardinals currently have. I would be curious what Lowe would cost in terms of talent.

As for selling high, mirage or no mirage I do not want to root for a team the trades off big league assets while in a pennett race

by billymartin on Jun 26, 2008 10:03 AM EDT   0 recs

Pass on everyone except CC, Bedard and maybe Lowe

I don’t see any of the other guys as significant improvements over the starters we currently have. Of course we’d have to be able to get CC, Bedard and Lowe at a price that wouldn’t completely destroy our minor leagues. Not sure that’s going to happen.

I hope we wait a couple of weeks, take stock of how our injuries/recoveries are progressing and then make a decision. The only thing I would be in favor of now would be to get a Lefty that could actually get lefties and an occasional righty out.

by birdo rojo on Jun 26, 2008 10:10 AM EDT   0 recs

I say nay to all.

The only good ones are too expensive. We can get enough production from what we already have that acquiring any of the cheaper pitchers on the list becomes a negligible move.

I know nobody wants to hear it, but this is still a transitional year. I hesitate to say rebuilding, because it doesn’t look as if the team is far enough from being a legit title contender to necessitate a full rebuild, but this is still a transition. There was a plan going into this year, and it was a sound, intelligent, well conceived plan. Things have gone well so far, better than most of us thought. That does not, however, mean the plan should be abandoned.

This organisation has a few pieces on the way that could very well make them title contenders in a year or two without making any sorts of moves at all. Even if they fall a bit short of that, the depth is there to make the moves then. For now, though, taking a chance on hamstringing yourself and bringing in an albatross contract is just too likely to end up being very damaging. Flexibility was the watchword in February, and flexibility should be the watchword now. Yes, this is a pretty good team. It is not, however, a WS team yet, in my opinion, and what it would take to make it a legitimate WS team today would end up killing the team in the next couple of years.

Ride it out with what we’ve got. Make your small adjustments around the edges (new LOOGY, anyone?), and bring in more youth, if you can. But do not mortgage the future. It’s far too bright to sell off just because the team is playing well right now. It was a good plan. See it through.

What this book presupposes is, maybe he didn't?

by the red baron on Jun 26, 2008 10:28 AM EDT   0 recs

Agreed

OT: I know you’ve said it on here before, but my memory escapes me. Why do you use British spellings of words? I remember you don’t live in the UK or anything, but why use ‘em?

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 26, 2008 10:37 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

spend the money in the offseason to find MI help.

Only need to look for LOOGY help now. Still think Mulder’s worth a look here.

by gocards62 on Jun 26, 2008 10:40 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Bloody Right

Spot on the mark my good chum. I thought we were trying to make other team think we had a SP surplus to drive up trade value for Reyes and such. I’ve know injuries have changed that but I don’t see the need to mortgage the future for a starter. Getting a new lefty in the pen is something I’m getting sold on more and more with every Flores pitch. That and getting a bat in the middle infield, but you know it’s hard to find what no one will trade. Oh well, time for some tea and crumpets.

Cheers

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Jun 26, 2008 11:01 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

baron, i'm only with you part way

i agree that general plan is working and the team should stick to it; that’s why i am opposed to a trade that would cost multiple prospects. but there’s enough depth in the system now to support the expenditure of one prospect; they can do that without derailing the overall plan to build from within. and in my mind, that’s a warranted expense because, very unexpectedly, the cards have a realistic opportunity to go deep into the playoffs this year. for all we know, their opportunity is better this year than it will be in 2009.

by lboros on Jun 26, 2008 11:53 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

maybe we can all be apart of a post in a couple of days on what prospects are off the table when using the one prospect for one arm campaign.

There’s 3 or 4 guys I can think of that I would like off the table for now, there’s some that are going to be clearly blocked.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 26, 2008 11:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree Baron

I couldn’t believe my eyes when I came to VEB today to see a post about acquiring a starting pitcher when it’s painfully obvious the team needs not just one new relief pitcher but two or three. The rotation is fine and will probably get Wainwright back about the same time a trade for one of these guys would eventually go through. So, I’m not sure why all the hubabaloo over acquiring one of these 2nd class starting pitchers.

by Tackle Box on Jun 26, 2008 12:27 PM EDT to parent up   1 recs

Lowe's split against lefties

Lowe, as forementioned by lboros, has a much worse split against lefties. Here are the top hitters in the Central:

Lee RH
Ramirez RH
Soriano RH
Edmonds (has he found it again?) LH
Fukudome LH
Fielder LH
Braun RH
Branyan (vs. Righties) LH
Doumit (Switch) LH
McLouth LH
Bay RH
Berkman (Switch) LH
Lee RH
Votto LH
Dunn LH

I dunno…do we really want him when he’s much worse v. lefties and 9 of the top 15 batters in the Central he’d be facing would be batting left handed against him?

by stlfan on Jun 26, 2008 10:32 AM EDT   0 recs

you forgot

miguel tejada and huter pence, two RH batters. and russ branyan – a guy who was in AAA a month ago – is a bigtime stretch to be on this list.

frankly, i’d be much more concerned with the cubs, whose main three big boppers are all RH. fukudome can get on base all he wants if lowe saws off the guys behind him and gets some DPs.

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on Jun 26, 2008 11:36 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Also...

How many of these teams are we actually going to be competing against down the stretch. Lowe may not even start his turns against half of the players you listed, so looking at it from that position is a bit ridiculous, imo. He’s interesting because he has a high GB ratio and can eat innings during his starts. He’s a nice fit for the Cardinals, but not getting him because there’s good left handed hitters in the central is a dubious concern.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 26, 2008 11:42 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

there's good LH hitters in every division

todd helton, adrian gonzalez, brian giles, freddy lewis, brad hawpe?

i don’t think the dodgers are afraid to have lowe face these guys.

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on Jun 26, 2008 11:48 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He needs work in LF

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy and Randy Flores!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 26, 2008 10:55 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Mayhap

they don’t need 13 pitchers and 12 position players?

(Mayhap our Birds do, in fact, need 13 pitchers… what with Welley’s barking elbow, etc… Stavinoha becomes a man without a position once we’re done with AL play…)

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 26, 2008 11:51 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Bullpen stability/stalwart

Isn’t this what we really need at the moment?

by mattysha on Jun 26, 2008 10:33 AM EDT   0 recs

We're conceding these guys as short-term rentals

Wasn’t that the case when the Cards acquired McGwire and Edmonds as well?

What is the likelihood of trading for, say, Bedard, having him play half a season in a pennant race in STL, fall in love with the town, and signing a big extension before ever hitting the FA market? He’s only ever played for Baltimore and this year’s awful Seattle team, so being part of a competitive team in a great baseball town ought to energize him and interest him in signing a new deal.

Have guys just become too smart/greedy to pass on FA money? Are the Cards just not willing to take a chance on this happening anymore? Were the McG and JEd deals basically worked out in advance, making it low risk? If that’s true, why not look into pulling that off again here?

by Zack Morris on Jun 26, 2008 11:04 AM EDT   0 recs

Wanna bet 6 years of Rasmus

plus 6 years of two other top prospects on it? I don’t. Maybe he won’t take the most money out there, but most do. And that assumes, which I’m not ready to, that he’d be worth 7 years. Maybe he won’t need the most money, but we’d have to be competitive in terms of years—and he’ll get 7. He’s already 29 and will be 31 when he throws his first pitch of that long-term contract. A 7 year deal will take him until he’s 37 years old. I don’t think I’d be willing to sign him to a 7 year deal. He’s had 1 good year and 1 excellent year so far. I’m sure not going to trade Rasmus’ 6 seasons + 6 seasons each of 2 other good prospects on the chance that we may be able to sign him for 7 years. No way! I wouldn’t trade Rasmus straight up for Bedard.

by houstoncardinal on Jun 26, 2008 11:23 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No, I don't

Sorry for being unclear. Bedard was just an example; the question was more in general if this is possible. We always refer to these guys only as short-term rentals, but the Cards have a recent history of success in re-signing trade deadline acquisitions. Larry Walker also fits this bill I believe. Is it now outside the realm of possibility.

by Zack Morris on Jun 26, 2008 11:34 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

What about Sabathia then?

He’s had 4 quality seasons, was the best pitcher in the AL last season, strikes out a ton of batters, and eats innings like they’re going out of style (as well as all the chicken wings on the post-game buffet, but that’s another story…). He’s probably going to get 7 years as well…but he’s just entering his prime years as a pitcher, doesn’t have a long injury history, and wants to pitch for a winner.

I’m not sure I’d trade for him, because he’d cost too much. But wouldn’t he be an interesting guy to target as a free agent in the offseason? Cleveland certainly doesn’t have the resources to sign him, and I doubt they’re going to find anyone who’s going to give up the prospects to trade for him during the season. He’ll bring them 2 draft picks in return for a team that usually drafts fairly well. There would obviously be a bidding war for his services, with all the big market teams in the running (NY, Boston, Detroit, LA Angels), but the Cardinals could possibly be the only NL team in the running for him (Met’s have Santana, Cubs have Big Z and a bunch of big contracts, nobody else is going to pony up that kind of dough). If you add up Encarnacion’s deal and Mulder’s deal, that nearly covers the $16-$18 milion that he’d command.

I’m not saying I’m in favor of it, I’d rather see them look to improve the middle infield in free agency with players like Hudson and Furcal, but I think the Cardinals have to at least kick the tires to see if he’s an option. With CC, Carp, WW, Piniero, and Boggs/Garcia/Mortenson/Todd they’d have one of the better rotations in all of baseball and continue to have pitching depth in the offseason.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 26, 2008 11:38 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Sabathia is great!

and he’s relatively young as he hasn’t yet turned 28. In general, I hate giving 7 year contracts to pitchers…period. I’m not opposed to checking in w/ his agent in the offseason, but when a couple of teams offer 7 years, $130 M - do we really want to go there - even for C.C.? He’s really, really good, but I think I’d rather hope that Wainwright turns into C.C. and that Todd, Garcia, Mortensen, et al are able to supplement the rotation.

by houstoncardinal on Jun 26, 2008 11:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Two things

1. The Cardinals seem to have an allergy to go for long-term deals on pitchers. It’s what sunk the AJ Burnett deal. I know they did one with Carpenter, but they may regret it down the road.

2. If we’re going to rent one of these guys, yes, let’s sign him long-term—or at least plan to. I just don’t understand giving up all those prospects and scratch for a couple of months of service.

by Red in Chicago on Jun 26, 2008 11:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

when is the last long term deal that we’ve gotten into with pitchers and not had injury/performance concerns? I’d be a little timid too.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 26, 2008 11:49 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

follow up question...

When was the last time the Cards offered a long term contract to a pitcher that didn’t already have a spotty health history?

When you gamble on oft-injured guys you’re going to get burned more times than not.

I’m glad they didn’t go after A.J Burnett for a 7 year deal…he’s never gotten through a season without missing starts due to injury. He’s a great talent, but he’s not as good as Sabathia and a much larger injury risk

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 26, 2008 11:52 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Betting 6 years of Rasmus etc

People around here (not you, just sayin’) blindly say they won’t give up almost any prospect for any “rentals” or whatever and it’s just silly. Teams have been doing this successfully for years and just because it’s the latest fad to over value prospects doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.

It all comes down to simple math actually:
X = This years chances of winning with “Rental”
Y = The teams from 2009-15(ish) with Prospect
Z = The teams from 2009-15(ish) without Prospect

If X’s chances of winning the WS are greater than Z’s = trade.
If X’s chances of winning the WS are less than Y’s = don’t.

If the cards are clearly the best team in the majors come the deadline you bet your ass I’d ship Rasmus for a Cy Young caliber pitcher.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jun 26, 2008 1:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

There really isn't any player who is in arbitration

right now that I would trade Rasmus for. Not one. He’s going to be the core of the Cardinals offense for the next 4-5 years. Teams don’t trade talent like that any more (unless you are the Mariners and you ship out Adam Jones) they lock them up to long term deals (Tulowitski, Jose Reyes, Hanley Ramirez, etc.). The playoffs are such a crap shot that it’s not worth selling the next 5 years for a shot at the playoffs.

by azruavatar on Jun 26, 2008 5:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

if he's the core of the offense

we may be in trouble

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 26, 2008 8:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Right!

We’ve got 2 chances w/ Bedard or 6 chances w/ Rasmus. And that’s assuming that Bedard is traded for Rasmus straight up, which most certainly wouldn’t be the deal. Perhaps I do overvalue Rasmus. Perhaps you’re overvaluing Bedard. Bedard will be 29 next season. Rasmus will be 22. The minute he steps foot in the Cards’ lineup, he becomes one of our top hitters, perhaps our 2nd best.

I suppose you’re right—the math is simple: 2 years of Bedard (or really 1 1/3) vs. 6 years of Rasmus. What’s silly is choosing Bedard.

by houstoncardinal on Jun 26, 2008 6:52 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs