Monday Morning Pinch Hitter
by azruavatar on Jun 23, 2008 10:40 AM EDT
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(LB may be in later with some more notes but I thought I'd go ahead and kick the morning off.)
[LB responds: thanks for getting up some notes AZ. i've got the day off --- am in portland for a family affair. RB may be along later w/ a post; i'll be on duty tues through thurs this week.]
The outfield has been, to a large extent, a strength for the Cardinals this season. Ryan Ludwick continues to mash the ball to the tune of .976 OPS although in June he’s hitting just .765 OPS. He’s caught the team’s allergy to walks largely. Ankiel isn’t quite the offensive powerhouse he was to start the year but his defense in CF is more than good enough to keep him afloat. Skip Schumaker, for all my skepticism, is getting on base at a .360 clip. For all those positives, the outfield is starting to show a few cracks. Chris Duncan is an obvious and continued source of concern. That’s been talked about a great deal and I’m not sure I have anything to add there.
Perhaps the most disappointing, however, is Brian Barton and his .671 OPS. Given how little LaRussa seems to trust his defense, and the plethora of nearly ready outfielders in the minors (Joe Mather, Nick Stavinoha, Colby Rasmus, Shane Robinson, Jon Jay) I’m starting to question if it isn’t time to cut bait with Barton. It’s not that he doesn’t still have potential, although at 26 one has to wonder how much growth is left, but it’s more along the lines that one of those outfielders – probably one of Mather, Stavinoha or Rasmus – could be a tangible and immediate upgrade to the team.
Mather strikes me as the best option. He’s already been up this year, he plays good corner outfield defense and he’s a right handed hitter. I’d take Rasmus next mainly because he’s left-handed and not on the 40-man roster yet (he also needs to be an everyday player once he comes up). I’m really pleased for Stavinoha who got his first major league hit yesterday but I’m not a believer in his bat and he’s a stiff in the outfield.
Giving up on Barton now means sending him back to
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from overthemonster.com
“The Cardinals have a pretty weak line-up without Pujols. Look up there, it’s awful. Ludwick is having a nice season, Ankiel is also good, and Glaus is fair enough. The rest is bad. They have a nice record, sitting at 42-32 entering game today. However, they’re playing a little bit over their heads right now, so expect that record to drop in the near future. So, it’s pretty much your Red Sox vs. a non-playoff NL team. This smells good.”
This was the post for Fridays game…
Ignorance is bliss
Did this blogger really post that the Cards are ”...playing a little bit over their heads right now, so expect that record to drop in the near future…” the day after we got swept at home by the Kansas City Royals?
I’m wondering also how Skip’s .360 OBP is “bad” and how Molina’s .729 (10th in MLB), .290 BA (8th in MLB), and .347 OBP (7th in MLB) is “bad.” The black hole that is our middle infield has been well-documented and I agree that it is “awful.”
It is all too evident...
that we have to cut bait with Iz2 and Kennedy. Izturus has been great defensively…but his OPS is getting scary close to .600 (.628)- isn’t that like the Mendoza line for OPS..you know where no matter how good the defense is you just can’t afford the black hole in the lineup?. Kennedy’s OPS has ballooned a little over the weekend, but it was a paultry .602 as of last Thursday. I’d like to see both of these guys released and Barden called up to start at 2nd or backup 2nd, 3rd and SS with Miles as the everyday 2 bagger.
by cardzfanbub on Jun 23, 2008 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
ah...
...it’s been nice to see the hubris of “Red Sox Nation” get deflated this last weekend in Boston. On the way out of the game Friday, people were quietly hanging their heads and I heard one person mutter, “Tonight was Celtics night, they should have won for the Celtics.” I couldn’t help thinking, “You can’t have your cake and eat it too.”
Can someone please inform me
when the Cardinals are going to fall back to Earth? By the way everyong talks about it, its apparantly going to be a sight to behold. I want to have my camera ready when it happens, but I’m starting to get a cramp holding it in the ready position while I wait, and wait, and wait….
I should ask Al, I’m sure he knows exactly when it’s going to happen.
When we get our best hitter, second-best pitcher, and best pitcher back from injuries
I reckon that’s when we will stop “playing over our heads” and “fall back to earth.”
Maybe in the World Series
against Boston. Seems like people kept trying to write us off in 2004 also. Granted, this team is not as good as the one that won 105 games, but it seems to get the same reaction: “Hey.. we said they’d be bad, let’s make it seem like we’re still gonna be right”
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
we could
trade him for a prospect as well. A LOOGY would be great, but as long as we’re getting value out him, that’s better than just sending him back to Cleveland. The possibility of a trade to a third party also gives us leverage if we’re negotiating with Cleveland.
A nice middle infield prospect would be lovely
Our outfield is a little crowded right now. But at the Major League level and the Minior league level. It would be just swell if we could trade him to someone needing depth in the OF for a MI prospect. While I’ll fully support trading him for someone who could help the club now. I would be able to get behind trading him for a prospect.
who has good middle infield prospects that would think of moving them?
I think the Angels, Mets, Phillies, Marlins will be happy with who they have in the MIF for several years,possibly the Braves and Mariners also. Can anyone think of any other teams set at both second and short?
Now I need to go back and look which of these teams have any prospects worth trading for.
Any ideas?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Trading Barton for a Loogy
This is an excellent idea IMHO. Say you are a team that already knows they have no realistic shot in 2008. Right now, that basically half of all MLB teams. You’re a team looking toward the future. Barton would be an attractive prospect to such a team. The Cardinals need a loogy bad. Some organization out there bereft of OF prospects has got to have a solid loogy either on their ML roster or in AAA. It’s a much better option than just handing Barton back to Cleveland.
trade him to somebody
this is best for all concerned and the writing is on the wall, ie, iz2 goes down, stav comes up and is in the line-up hitting 5th, not barton. if he can’t be number one for the dh job over a AAA call up, why do we keep him?
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!
Um, you do know that the started in LF
that day and batted leadoff.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 23, 2008 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
A better source?
The source that Wiki cites (a Baseball America bit) does not confirm that teams can trade Rule 5 draftees so easily, and Rob Neyer’s “transaction primer” makes it sound as though no trade could be made unless the would-be-traders first offer the draftee back to his original team and then get the draftee through waivers. I’d like to believe Wikipedia, but I’d also like a better source.
Josh Hamilton
I remember that Josh Hamilton was traded on the day of the Rule 5 draft. The Cubs picked him for the Reds.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2689855
Not that this is concrete evidence that Barton can be traded now, but somewhat relevant.
the confusion lies
in what is meant by “trade”.
Barton CAN be traded to anyone we want, even to cleveland. When that trade is made, the rule 5 qualifications go with him. He can’t be sent to the minors without going through irrevocable waivers.
There is a misconception that we can make a trade with Cleveland and then send him down. According to Brian Walton at “the birdhouse”, who has clubhouse access and has never been wrong about this type of esoteric stuff, THIS bit is false. In order to send him down, we’d have to pass him through waivers and get all 28 teams that aren’t Cleveland to pass, then work out a deal with Cleveland.
"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN
Oh damn
Great info, Sleepy. I was under the impression we could just send Cleveland something for Barton and be done with it. In that case, I’d like to change my poll vote! If we could do that, I think it would be the best course of action. However, I have zero confidence that BB would fall through waivers of all teams.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
This is my preference...
with a pleathora of teams that have to be looking at ‘09 now…there has to be a few that would be willing to let him take up their 25th spot for the potential he might bring. I think swapping him for a veteran rental of any useful type is better than selling him back to Cleveland for $25K.
Any chance the Royals would swap Grudzy for him?
To the Pirates for one of their lefty relievers?
by cardzfanbub on Jun 23, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
That would be my choice
A LOOGY with a pulse, just so we can see someone beside Flores walk people.
by mikedallas45 on Jun 23, 2008 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe Rowland-Smith from SEA?
They could definitely give Barton the playing time.
by mikedallas45 on Jun 23, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Yep
Good thought. I’d try to move him to a 3rd team as well. Obviously we won’t get a ton back, but maybe a veteran 2B or a lefty for the pen.
by SoonerfanTU on Jun 23, 2008 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Barton just isn't getting enough playing time
His speed and-potentially, anyway-his bat are exciting. I think LaRussa needs to figure out a way to get him more playing time. Maybe they should send Duncan back to Memphis and bring up a 3B/1B backup or stay overloaded on pitchers for a week, just to see what playing in four or five straight games will do for the lad.
I’m not convinced the 2009 mode of Brian Barton won’t be at least as good as our other options in left field next year. I agree the team would benefit marginally by bringing up Rasmus or Mather right now. But the team would benefit more significantly if it could hold on until the rosters expand and keep Barton around next year.
But if Cleveland really wants him back, okay. Barton for Sabbathia straight up. Deal?
by Red in Chicago on Jun 23, 2008 11:06 AM EDT reply actions
I agree with you that he has potential and is exciting, but ...
the calculation has to change now that the team is a contender. Increasingly, the team needs to focus more on what gives it the best chance to make the playoffs and less on what would be best for 09 or 10 or 11. That doesn’t mean we give Barton away for free, but I think it should mean we take a little less for him in a third-party trade or, if we like BB that much, be a little more willing to give Cleveland a prospect so we can send Barton down to AAA.
"the calculation has to change now that the team is a contender."
I never understood that…Why is a slight increase in our chances at the playoffs this year worth sacrificing a larger increase in our chances next year or the year after. Consistently making the most of your resources strikes me as the more sound policy. Is it not best to always try for the best value moves for the team overall?
If one could say with certainty “we are” or “we aren’t” going to make the playoffs this year or that year… then logically you could try to “timeshift” talent from year to year to create more years with the requisite talent to make the playoffs. Since baseball almost never works that way (ie it is always a matter of chances and probabilities) I fail to see how making moves that intentionally underperform for the sake of competitiveness now does anything but drag down the team.
-- Aidan Sonoda
In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas.
by Aidan Sonoda on Jun 23, 2008 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
It's a question of...
does whomever we might pick up give us a better shot at reaching the playoffs this year than BB ever will? It’s a judgement call.
Indeed
that’s true, but that doesn’t “change the calculation.” DCGreg spoke of valuing a move the helps this year MORE, simply because it helps us this year. Obviously if we can trade Barton for a piece that helps us more now than Barton will next year or ever – then we should. That’s extremely unlikely of-course since Barton is likely to play better next year (having jumped from AA to the majors this year), and/or have more trade possibilities once he is out of the Rule V and controlled by the Cardinals.
-- Aidan Sonoda
In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas.
by Aidan Sonoda on Jun 23, 2008 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
changing the calculation
I really thought my point was a pretty basic one: If you’re not contending, it makes a lot of sense to carry a guy like Barton who will likely pay dividends down the road. If you are contending, there’s a cost—he’s taking a roster spot from someone who would contribute more, whether that be Mather or Rasmus or Stavinoha.
I continue to like Barton’s potential, but given the way TLR uses him, he really doesn’t have much value on this team. He starts only against lefties and isn’t trusted to play late-inning defense when the team is ahead. I think Mather in particular would probably be an upgrade at this stage.
He has provided plenty of value to this
team playing the way LaRussa is playing him. He has excelled as a pinch hitter. What exactly is wrong with that?
nothing wrong with it, of course
but we’re talking 8 hits (in 27 at-bats). Joe Replacement Player would provide, what, 6 hits in those at-bats? I mean, this is pretty small stuff. And of course, you’ve cherry-picked the statistics, looking at only his 30 plate appearances as a pinch hitter. If I do the same and pick out his 100 or so appearances as an outfielder, he’s .229/.330/.313, which is sub-LaRue.
It’s really hard to make an argument that Barton adds much to this team right now. I understand the point of those who say he’s worth the cost of carrying him, but it’s clearly a cost.
putting it another way
if it weren’t for the Rule 5 requirement, would Barton be on the big-league club?
more than likely, no
still doesn’t erase the fact the Rule 5 requirement exists.
And let me point out to casual readers of this blog, yes I am argueing both “for” and “against’ Brian Barton today. A very special day indeed.
the key to being a foolish hobgoblin
is to be consistent.
- joe morgan
"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN
Okay
then i’ll include his speed into the equation. There’s no one in AAA who would bring his production off the bench + his speed to the team.
And this is boardering on the other conversation I’m having in that if a guy is performing well in a situation (i.e., pinch hitting) why the rush to see if someone else can do it better when the upside is virtually nil? And its not like Brian Barton is making millions of dollars compared to Joe Replacement Player. They’re making the exact same amount of money so the cost in terms of roster spot, payroll or anything really doesn’t hold up.
I can understand these types of arguments in regards to Adam Kennedy or Randy Flores or some other guys to an extent, but not when it comes to our 4th/5th outfielder making the league minimum who has done relatively well in limited playing time.
As outlined farther up this thread,
I understand it’s not so simple as being “a little more willing to give Cleveland a prospect so we can send Barton down to AAA.” I don’t see how a send-down is possible if he has to pass through every other team’s clutches first..
Sendind down Duncan does nothing for Barton's playing time
Duncan for the time being is a first baseman and has been for the past week and a half or so. Barton’s playing time didn’t change. He will always be behind Skip, Ankiel and Ludwick and he should be.
agreed. duncan is not blocking barton. i do see value for barton as a schumaker platoon, though. schumaker hits .826 OPS against RHP but only .513 against LHP. ludwick has a reverse split, but he’s still .868 against RHP and a much more palatable .751 against LHP. ankiel is precisely .785 against both!
FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG
yeah, but you aren't seriously
considering Ludwick as a platoon partner with Barton? No matter what the splits say, there’s no reason unless Ryan Ludwick falls off the face of the earth to ever consider replacing him with Brian Barton, platoon or otherwise.
no, i’m not. not stated, and if it was implied that was not my intention. i only suggested that it works with schumaker, and cited our remaining OF starters’ splits for notation – and specifically called ludwick’s split “palatable”.
FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG
Oh, I was pretty sure you never intended to
but just the fact that you included him in the conversation made me scratch my head a little. You know, like you considered it, and then looked up the stats to see what it might look like?
No harm. No foul. I had enough faith in your judgement to not make that mistake.
well, one would be remiss to not consider anything :) i enjoy looking up splits just to stay fresh on them, but the basic point was that we have one need for a platoon and it’s in LF, by way of either schumaker or even duncan. i think it’s safe to pencil ank and lud in CF and RF respectively until september, fenway park-like RFs notwithstanding.
FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG
Way too soon to bail on Barton.
The challenge is how to get him more PT, not how to replace him.
Unfortunately, I fully expect this team to not do the right thing.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 23, 2008 11:08 AM EDT reply actions
The right thing is giving Barton 3 starts
every 2 weeks, and more pinch-hitting opportunities. Or, in the unfortunate event one of our OFs goes down with an injury, you give Barton that player’s PT.
I’m sure there are other possibilities, but the point is that he just isn’t getting enough PT right now.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 23, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know how you get into a groove
starting 3 games every 2 weeks while pinch hitting every once in a while.
Nor do I. If I were manager,
Barton would get a solid 2-3 weeks of starting so I can figure out what we’ve got here. But the guy’s practically a rumor now, anybody would get rusty getting so few appearances. the best we can expect is a small bump in playing time, and that’s what I’m asking for.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 23, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
How do you justify starting him 2-3 weeks straight
You’re obvioulsy a Brian Barton fan, and I guess that’s okay, but it’s irrational to think you can just give that much continuous playing time to him at this point in the season over Skip, Ank and Ludwick just to see what you’ve got.
Our current manager
drives us all insane with his bizarro belief that Miles can play SS, or his penchant a few years ago for putting infielders in the outfield every day, or his inability to see how badly Flores sucks, or his strange desire to bunt after a leadoff double, etc. So what would be so wierd about playing Barton every day for 15-20 games?
I am a Barton fan, therefore it stands to reason that I think he’s good enough to play a lot, so why is my position irrational? I think you’re assuming that Barton would grossly underperform Schumaker, and I can’t agree with that.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 23, 2008 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying he would definately underperform Skip
What I’m saying is that at best he’ll perform exaclty the same as Skip, has virutally no chance of dramitically improving the team, and might actually underperform Skip.
Where’s the upside?
And to use past lineup oddities as a justification to do something like start Barton for the better part of a month, just to see what you’ve got, is something I cannot currently wrap my mind around.
Once again, I will say it once more, if this team were in last place and 15 games under .500, I’d have no problem doing what you are suggesting. But with the reality of today, I see absolutely zero justification for it.
Asked the same question the other day about Barton--trade?
I think we need to look for bullpen help or a MIF prospect
I know my reasoning is irrational, but I say send him back to Cleveland.
I like him-a lot. The speed, the high socks, the crazy hair, the all out effort. But I think staying here, rarely playing, is going to kill his chance at any kind of a real career. I don’t know if he really needs to be platooned, but that’s his life here, whether I like it or not, whether he needs it or not. The way LaRussa’s using him, it’s safe to say he’s not really in their plans.
If there’s a chance to trade him, do it. If not, just give him back.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Are you a Cardinals fan.....
Or a fan of various players? Not trying to stir things up, you just always seem to look at things as what is “best for the player”, while most people look at it as what is best for the Cardinals.
by SoonerfanTU on Jun 23, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I am a Cardinals fan AND a fan of various players-I even like players on other teams. I follow the White Sox and the A's too.
I see no purpose, none at all, to not let loose of players that have no future in your organization.
I just don’t see how it’s best for the Cardinals to keep players around that have no future. Really, not good for the organization or the plalyer. Trade them for players you like better. IMO that helps the organization.
Working a trade would be best for the Cardinals-if they can’t, then return him to Cleveland. So I amend my statement. Sorry I like certain players. I’ll try not to do that. I’ve been trying not to do that since Curt Flood …....
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
I just disagree profoundly
w/ the notion that Barton “has no future here.” If you mean, ”...as a starter”, I might agree with you. But the guy hits lefties reasonably well, has a little pop and some speed. He’s been projected as a 4th OF and I see no reason why he can’t fill that role admirably.
Of those mentioned, some are approaching their free agent years, some (Rasmus) will, unquestionably, be starters. How is he hurting this team by playing sparingly? Would Mather or Stavinoha on the everyday active roster be a measurable improvement? Do either of them, for example, have the ability to pinch-run? Rasmus is no replacement, as he shouldn’t be recalled to sit on the bench.
I think since Barton was drafted too many Cards’ fans saw him as a solution to our projected OF woes. There was this pervasive belief that he would be a leadoff hitter, hit for power and steal bases, and be, well, what Schumaker has become. He can be a very valuable member of our OF, this year and in years to come. He’s certainly not the worst player on the roster either. If we are truly that desperate to bring Mather up full-time, we should send Kennedy packing. Barton’s a valuable commodity and it makes little sense to just give him away—either to the Indians or anyone else.
I just get the vibes by the way he's used
that LaRussa doesn’t think he’s much of a player. Next year when they can make a choice, I bet he doesn’t get chosen…..
I like him. I in no way think he’s anything close to the worst player on the team. I think we’ll never get a true read on him because he just doesn’t play much. So how much value does he really have…...
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Well, there was a pervasive belief
he could be a leadoff hitter, hit for power and steal bases. I don’t think anyone thought that was a lead-pipe cinch. But at the same time, the guy gets so little playing time I don’t know how anyone can evaluate him. There’s gotta be a way to get him between the lines more often. Would it be heresy to suggest that maybe Ank ought to take a seat for a game or three?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 23, 2008 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, I can see Jill's point here
Things are a little bit different then they were when he was selected in December, or even at the start of the season…there are many more outfield options, and it’s obvious that TLR is not sold on his defense, meaning that even when he starts, he will be replaced at some point during the game…since the team insists on constantly playing with a short bench, I don’t know where as they can afford to have a guy on the team that you don’t trust to play all nine innings…I, too, would rather not give him back, but my question is does he have a future here as a potential starting OF…I don’t see it, so in that regard, you may as well send him back.
I cant and dont and heres why....
I cant and dont because Jills point of view always comes down to believing a developing players situation on a team is defined by how management treats them or deals with them on a personal level vs. the talent and skill they posses to play the game.
Gosh I wish it was that easy! Put a hand on Reyes shoulder and say a kind word and everything will be alright? There is no disrespect in questioning perspective, but theres a little more involved here.
The needs of the team today, tomorrow and who can be signed two years from now have so much more to do with it, its a BIG business and we have a winning team.
Barton is caught in a bad situation, theres no room…and yes Rasmus, Stavinoha, and Mather and Jay etc etc are all out there along with Ludwick, Ankiel, Schumacher and Duncan and there are three positions.
Who (in the OF) would we give up to get a LH reliever or a 2nd baseman…..? And what team has what we want and wants what we have to offer in return and who’s going to be a Cardinal next year and the year after….
La Russa does as good a job “infuriating” us with player positioning as anybody managing in baseball without a multi-billion dollar payroll. Larue, Schumacher, Miles and Kennedy were huge in the Boston Red Sawks series, go figure.
by cardschinmusic on Jun 24, 2008 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions
if we're sending anyone away....
my vote goes for adam kennedy. he’s taking at bats away from two superior players. and it’s really saying something when aaron miles is a superior baseball player. (for some reason, i have and have always had this deep hatred for aaron miles.) i continue to be frustrated as to why brendan ryan isn’t in the lineup everyday. i don’t think he’s the answer to our middle infield woes, but i do believe he is the best all-around middle infielder on our roster, and should therefore be in the lineup everyday. furthermore, i don’t think we’ll ever know what his absolute ceiling is if he’s not given the opportunity to perform on an everyday basis. my feeling is the same about barton. particularly because i think barton has a fairly high ceiling. i just feel that he was never given an opportunity to get comfortable. with the outfield situation as it is, i would like to see him get a chance to take over left field for a bit and see if he can play himself into a groove. if he can get his average and obp up, i think he can do a lot for the team. and i can’t rationalize just sending him back to cleveland. at least trade him, or keep him as part of an off-season package. and although this contradicts with my opinion on barton, i wouldn’t mind seeing our outfield be ludwick, ankiel, and rasmus from here on out…
The apparent justification for...
not having Ryan in the lineup everyday is Kennedy’s .030 adavantage in OPS vs. righties. Just for the record Iz2 should never hit against RHP’s (.220/.288/.283 – .571 OPS) Splits for AK and BR:
AK
vs. RH – .261/.312/.324 – .636 OPS
vs. LH – .303/.343/.333 – .676 OPS
BR
vs. RH – .250/.294/.313 – .607OPS
vs. LH – .333/.373/.375 – .748 OPS!!
by cardzfanbub on Jun 23, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
what's awesome
is that, in this thread, we’ve discussed sending Barton back to the Indians because he can’t get enough playing time, and yet he has 8 more PA’s than Brendan Ryan, the best SS on our team defensively.
Who is also outperforming the starting SS offensively.
Sure, being out for the first 2 weeks of the season hurt him a bit with playing time, but it is just ridiculous that Ryan can’t get more PA’s.
"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN
Ryan is our best defensive SS?
Do you really think Ryan is better defensively than Iz2?
Granted, I’d rather see Ryan as the starting SS every game, but my take was that although Izturis sucks BADLY at the plate, his defense is superb.
I haven’t looked at any of the (admittedly varying) defensive metrics, but my impression was that Iz2’s D was outstanding and slightly better than Ryan’s, although Ryan’s was solid (and the difference is NOT enough to justify giving Iz2 starts over Ryan, imho). I’m just surprised that you rate Shoulder Licker’s D better…
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
yes.
subjectively, I think he makes a lot of plays look easy, that Iz2 makes look spectacular. In spring training I spent a lot of time watching them take fielding practice together and I commented at the time that Ryan had a couple of feet of additional range than izturis; this was argued with, but I thought it was especially apparent watching iz2 go to his left. IMO iz2 compensates for his inability to go left by playing closer to the bag, which leads to a lot of “spectacular” diving plays on balls to his right that Ryan would have just “made the play” on.
Also, at the time IIRC I caveated it with a “but I’m probably biased”, because I was very against the izturis signing, but after about half a season, the defensive metrics pretty much back me up. Fielding Bible Plus/Minus (a counting stat, available at billjamesonline.com) says Ryan and izturis are both at +3, with Izturis having about 3.75x as much playing time (498 IP vs 133), so iz2 should be closer to +11. Ryan also has over 100 points of RZR (a rate stat) on izturis, .946 to .844. Izturis has more OOZ’s, but even if you add the OOZ total to the numerator of the RZR formula, Ryan comes out on top.
Neither show up on the snippet of “best or worst fielding by UZR” that MGL released in early June, which basically means izturis has been “not top 5” and ryan hasn’t had much playing time, and PMR won’t be released until after the season, (but PMR uses the same data set as RZR, so the results shouldn’t vary much); afaict, the only fielding metric that I am aware of that rates izturis higher than Ryan is range factor, which has issues especially with small sample sizes. Even the BP metrics say ryan is better, if barely.
"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN
by SleepyCA on Jun 23, 2008 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting
That’s a very intriguing and thoughtful analysis. Thanks for taking the time to post it.
Now that you mention it, your subjective perspective strikes me as being on target, since (upon reflection) Izturis does seem to make quite a few “spectacular” plays whereas Ryan’s putouts always seems to be more routine. I had attributed this to Iz2’s “superb D,” but I think your assessment of Ryan’s superior quickness/range may be the real reason.
The plus/minus rating is VERY telling. Now I’m even more disappointed that Brendan hasn’t been getting regular starts…
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
i agree...
that it is ridiculous that brendan ryan isn’t playing more. there is absolutely no reason he shouldn’t. i’m not sure if he’s our best defensive ss, but i think he’s far and away our best overall middle infielder, granted that may not say a whole lot. but i think it says enough that he should be playing pretty much, if not, everyday.
Regarding Barton
The middle of the season is no time for tryouts. Sitting Skip for any extended period of time just so Barton can “see if he can play himself into a grove” is ridiculous.
hold on...
i hardly think finding more time for barton constitutes “ridiculous” he has consistently got on base throughout his career at a much higher rate than skip’s. he has potential to do a lot with his speed, as he displayed yesterday. now, can it be said that skip deserves the time, yes. i concede that is a valid argument. especially given that skip is a vastly superior defensive outfielder. however, i happen to prefer barton because i think his ceiling is higher than skip’s, and when he was playing time was more consistent at the beginning of the year, his performance was substantially better. again, giving more time to barton is my opinion on the matter. one however, that i hardly think can be termed ridiculous.
It has nothing to do with Skip
and it has nothing to do with Barton.
I had issue with givng considerable time in June/July to a player over starters simply to see what they might be able to do. At this point in the season, you can’t just start shuffleing things around to see what happens. If the team is in the cellar and needs a change, then fine. Not when the team is double digits over .500 and is playing as well as it has.
Brian Barton isn’t going to make this team substationably better, however giving him substationable playing time to see what he can do, can dimish the teams performance or have basically no effect at all.
And just so I’m clear. You did say the team should allow Barton to play everyday just to see if he can play himself into a groove. Whats wrong with the grove he’s in now? He’s one of the best pinch hitters in the game and provides valuable speed off the bench and can play outfield adequately if called upon.
OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here
and make an absurd comparison between two players who are most assuredly not comparable …
Willie Mays was awful-for quite a long time-when he first came to the big leagues. But his manager stuck with him and it paid off. My question is … given the reasoning you’ve laid out here, would you have put Mays on the bench and used him for pinch hitting, pinch running, and one start every 9th game?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 23, 2008 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right
that is an absurd comparison. And I really can’t address it since it is so absurd. Btw, what age was Mays when he started playing major league baseball? Oh, he was 20. Hardly comparable to Brain Barton who has been through 2 organizations neither of which quite saw Willie Mays-like qualities or anything close to it.
Btw, Mays played in only 34 games in his second year as a pro and I wouldn’t consider Mays as awful in his first year.
We're going to have to
agree to disagree, my friend. You’re outlining a classically conservative approach, which is how most ML teams do things, and I am certainly not offering a mainstream suggestion. But 1) I can’t stop wondering how many potentially good players had their careers shortened because they weren’t given a chance to play, and 2) I think it’s OK to take a chance on a young player, even if the guy he replaces is doing pretty well at the time.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 23, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Fine
It was painfully obvious I wan’t going to convince you and just like you weren’t going to convince me. what I will say, though, in response to your last sentence is that you always have to weigh the upside vs. the downside with each move. If there is a downside and no foreseeable upside and that player fails miserably, then you use your job. See Seattle for a rather recent example.
OK, last word, I promise.
Please note that I never suggested a permanent switch of roles between Skippy and BB, but a trial.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 23, 2008 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
When we start facing LHP
again, Skip and Barton will switch roles.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 23, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
you have to be thinking of someone else...
I’m sure there are many players who followed the Barton career path and had success, but Mays is not one of them ;)
Mays hit .351 in his first minor league season, then was hitting .477 at AAA when he got called up; he won the rookie of the year that year (as a 20yo) with an OPS+ of 120 and won the MVP as a 23yo with an OPS+ of 175. He missed the two years in between, courtesy of the US Army.
"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN
Maybe he thought Brock
even though I’m not going to look it up :D
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 23, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
i understand..
giving time to a player over starters, i just don’t think there is a clear third outfield starter right now, and i’m saying i would like that to be barton, or at least significantly increase his playing time. barton is valuable as a pinch hitter and he provides value off the bench, i just think he might provide more value with more playing time. again though, that’s just my opinion.
Barton
If the Cards aren’t going to keep Barton, then trading him is the best option. I am sure that the Cards are not the only team that thought he had some Rule V value. Traded whether for a LOOGY or as part of a larger deal for an impact position player (Brian Roberts?), it does not matter, but with the crush of outfielders in the Cards system (Jay and Robinson are making strides plus the possibility of Alan Craig getting outfield time and of course Mather and Rasmus) it is time to trade from depth.
Word was the Padres were looking at him at Rule 5 time too.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
I should point out...
That if we’re hell-bent on keeping Barton, he only needs to be on the active roster for 90 days. So, he can get “injured” in early July, “rehab” for the month of August in Memphis, and rejoin the team when rosters expand in September.
I'm shocked, shocked
to hear the suggestion that we fabricate an injury. But now that you mention it, that sure sounds like a possibility. The downside, of course, that Barton really needs playing time somewhere and it’d be unfortunate from the standpoint of his development to have to be sidelined with a phatom injury. But those hand lacerations can be quite nettlesome …
Correct me if I'm mistaken,
but didn’t the Cards do the phantom injury thing with the last rule 5 OF they had in 1996, Miguel Mejia? Remember him? I think he was almost a latter day Herb Washington, the designated pinch runner for a couple of those old Oakland teams of the 70’s…he had more stolen bases (6) than hits (2).
Phantom Injury
Izzy’s “laceration” was the one of the most obvious phantom injuries ever… even if he really did get a cut from hitting the TV the cards, izzy, and the press all but admitted the DL trip was more about his head than his hand.
TLR does the phantom injury thing quite a bit if I recall, usually using a “nagging” type injury as an excuse for a DL trip to give roster flexibility.
DL time does not count
for the purposes of accumulating a full season on a major-league roster. Time on the DL this season would have to be made up for next season before he could be optioned. Unless a useful deal presents itself, Barton should be retained and continue to get playing time against lefthanders. He brings to the table an element not provided by Mather, Stavinoa, et al. and in general short supply elsewhere on the Cardinals-speed. I refer you to his key double yesterday off Lester followed by a shocking-for the Cardinals—steal of third. I wouldn’t be so quick to give up that sort of talent; I would try to make better use of it.
I know DL time doesn't count
But he only needs 90 days, he is almost there already, and the time in September when rosters expand would count also.
by mikedallas45 on Jun 23, 2008 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
shocking-for-the-Cardinals steal of third
Oh, you mean the “oops, I failed to advance to third on that deep fly ball, guess I’ll steal third to make up for it so Oquendo doesn’t have me drawn and quartered like he looks like he’s ready to do” steal of third? :-P
What deep fly ball?
Miles hit it just barely out of the infield.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 23, 2008 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
mikedallas made my point for me. exactly what i was thinking. But Barton would be very valuable in a trade though, possibly good enough to convince the team that he goes to to take Kennedy/Duncan and still something valuable in return. Perhaps Barton, Duncan and PTBNL for Cano and Billy Traber, a young (28) lefty reliever who has shown propensity to get LHB out at a clip of 222/322/330/652 (BA/OBP/SLG/OPS) per baseball reference. But will the Yanks bite?
At least he's better than Esteban Yan.
Why would the Yanks do that?
Unless we can offer them a consistent starting pitcher, they have no reason to make such a move.
Yup
Despite his struggles this season, Cano is a stud and has two more arb years after this. If you called the Yankees the asking price would probably be something like Garcia + Anderson.
by mikedallas45 on Jun 23, 2008 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it's a pipe dream to even think the Yankees would part way with Cano.
There is an extreme shortage of decent middle infielders all around baseball right now. It would be unwise to cut bait in the middle of a down year.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
No no no no no
Stop with the Cano stuff. I don’t know if you noticed, but he’s an incredibly cheap, young, and underperforming middle infielder. Teams don’t trade guys that are cheap and young while their stock is at an all-time low—well, not halfway intelligent teams. Maybe if the GM in NY was Sabean we’d have a shot, but it’s Cashman. Cano is going nowhere for anything less than his true (.300/.350/.500) value, and a 2B with that kind of value is far too expensive for the Cardinals.
The Yankees wouldn't bite on that
if you offered to pay Barton’s, Duncan’s and the PTBNL’s salary for 5 years.
i now realize
how lopsided that trade is. Just because we all know the value of the players we offer doesn’t mean the other team does. Its like starting an arguement with two extremes. If you compromise, you still get a reasonable deal. But if one person is extreme and the other is moderate, the compromise is slanted towards the more extreme view. I believe that Mo is attempting to employ this strategy with regard to trading Reyes.
At least he's better than Esteban Yan.
Potentially...
Or the other party that starts with a moderate approach thinks you’re a jackass and refuses to budge. By oversimplifying the negotiating strategy by thinking if I start at the extreme I’ll win kills many deals.
Going into the season I never thought I would say this...
but Skip and Luddy are the cream of the ML OFer crop right now. Ank is just not consistent enough with the offense to get me excited anymore. Once Rasmus gets the Sept. callup I would love to see an OF with him, Skip and Luddy. If you don’t think Barton is getting much PT now, wait until Sept. —he’ll be like that distant relative you only see once in a blue moon.
Assuming the team is in contention at the deadline I would love to see a deal for a MI, but I’m just not sure if the cards even have the inclination to make that move. LaRussa is more than happy to play Miles and Izturis every day and I don’t see that changing. Mo is focused on our prospects and every move he’s made so far is to get younger, or add guys via free agency, I would be surprised to see him move prospects for veterans. That said, the most obvious move in the world is to add a slugging 2B or SS… hopefully they can put something together.
Ankiel is elite defensively
Schumaker really doesn’t compare in center. I think Ankiel just needs some remedial hitting instruction from Larry Walker…and a couple of CCs of patience.
by Red in Chicago on Jun 23, 2008 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone wishes he hasn't slipped Sunday
He misjudged the ball. Sucks it happened. But this is only the 3rd ball i believe he has misjudged all year.
rick
He just needs to become a bit more patient at the plate….. Needs to realize what he can and can’t hit.
He can’t hit hard throwers, and he can’t hit the fastball up in the zone…...... he needs to make pitchers get the ball down as his swing is too long to catch up to high heat.
As mentioned earlier...
Ank IS being more patient at the plate—it’s how his OBP is staying relatively high while his BAVG is dropping. Overall he’s held up ok with a .800 OPS but yesterday he just looked completely overmatched. I know he’s prone to slumps and streaks, but 0 for 6 is ridiculous…
The point is, I don’t think it’s patience—he IS being patient (or at least relatively more patient than last year). I think he needs to get more hits.
Patience is a poor choice of words....
He needs to swing at pitches he can acutally handle. I was not analyzing his ability to walk and what not, he does not cover the zone like Albert so he needs to realize what he can and can’t hit…...............
he does
Still under 500 ML ABs also. He does need to make the adjustment. But going into the season most people thought he would be a .250-.260 hitter. But it would be nice to see him take better ABs and have more 2-4 games mixed in with those 0-5ers.
Hey. He has a shot at 30 homeruns throw in the gold glove defense and someone tell me Raz could do better.
"Why does he keep saying that?"
Agreed
I think everyone can agree that we’d rather have Ank than Schumaker defensively, but if Rasmus is as good on defense as advertised, then the comparison is about Rasmus v. Ank. Schmaker is presumably our LF or RF and in either spot is above average at least.
negative
Ankiel > Skipp. If Rasmus comes up he may take the center field position. But it would be Ankiel missing time.
The one thing that would be neat
Put aside Barton for a minute—would be to have Schumaker/Ankiel/Rasmus/Ludwick as your outfield crew. You’ve basically got four centerfielders. It’s like the Illini basketball team from ‘05 with three point guards: it’s a great situation from a defensive and substitution standpoint.
by Red in Chicago on Jun 23, 2008 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
But.....
which one of them is going to hit 25-30 home runs a year? Drive in 75-100 runs a year? Defense:check. Offense:? Ludwick:Yes. Probably. The Rest:??
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Yup
That’s why you need Rasmus to play somewhere in the OF next year and hope he can hit ML pitching. On this team we need the OFs to produce offensively b/c we have crap offensive production from the MI. We can afford one defensive minded OFer, but not 2.
Well you can't discount
Rasmus yet. He should project to be a .400 OBP guy. He’s going to be scoring the runs, if not driving them in.
by Red in Chicago on Jun 23, 2008 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
.400 obp, 50 hr, 120 sb
it’s pretty much a shoe in we have the next Barry Bonds on our team, you didn’t know that?
Minus about 20 homeruns and 90 stolen bases...
and 6 inches of neck size…
by Red in Chicago on Jun 23, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
IIRC
That’s what he was doing before he was called up to Memphis. Tons of walks.
by Red in Chicago on Jun 23, 2008 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
great, thanks for the link! i’m a BP subscriber, but i’ve grown less and less fond of their proprietary stats. especially after reading stuff like this from tangotiger. at this point i don’t even grok EQA, but perhaps i should figure it out for this alone if there are no competitive translators.
FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG
I'm totally with you on BP
but the Davenport Translations are the best things out there that I’ve seen. I just wish they’d publish some defensive metrics for the minor leagues.
jeff sackmann
at minorleaguesplits actually has a calculator that does ballpark and league effects and everything:
http://www.minorleaguesplits.com/mlecalc.html
Don’t type his numbers from this year in, though. They don’t mean anything.
"If thats bad luck, lets DFA our luck away." -DriverZN
never had an OBP over .380
http://firstinning.com/players/Colby-Rasmus-a/
.400 is a very select group of players and as much as I like Colby, I think that’s stretching it.
Okay, point taken
But a high 300s OBP + speed = lots of runs. Not Brock-like runs, but still a hell of a lot better leadoff than any of the options on the team currently.
by Red in Chicago on Jun 23, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem with Rasmus is playing time
With his well-observed difficulties with making the jump from one level to the next, it’s a little difficult to just anniont him the starting left fielder (or center fielder) if he’s going 0-5 with 3 strike outs ever single night.
Once again, if this team were toiling around the basement, I wouldn’t have much of an issue with it. But that’s not reality.
He’s better off getting regular playing time at Memphis. Seriously, after his April and May, lets just let him get comfortable with the June he’s had. Let’s see if he can sustain it into July.
Serioulsy, the guy slumped horribly for 2 out of the 3 months we’ve played this year and he is still only 21 years old. Give the kid a little breathing room.
I wasn't assuming
he would start this year. I was really talking about next year. I agree with your point. Plus you have the whole arb clock business, which is not unimportant to the front office.
by Red in Chicago on Jun 23, 2008 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
GRRRRR....as with most things in life,
it’s always about the money…...
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Oh, please.
When it’s a multi-billion dollar sports franchise with a payroll over $100,000,000 a year, of course the contract stuff is important.
This isn’t little league where it’s all about getting “the kids” some playing time for their personal growth. It’s about using every tool at your disposal to put a winning team on the field year after year for the millions of paying fans. Any GM who didn’t focus on the financials would 1) lose his job, and 2) end up with a crappy ball club.
Seriously, your naiveté is a bit vexing at times, jills.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
You know, I didn't mean to get you in an uproar.....
Honestly, that was a wistful comment on life in general, not just sports. I don’t know about you, but I’ve made numerous decision because of money or LACK thereof my entire life. Please don’t read more into that comment-I didn’t mean more than that. It’s a commen cliche…....I’m sure that wasn’t the first time you’ve heard it.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jun 23, 2008 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
it really shouldn't
be about the money ( or arbitration anyway). If Colby is the type of player he is projected to be, I would think the Cards would at least give a great effort to sign him to a contract that would buy out those arbitration years
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Ank and Raz could both supply the power you are looking for and runs.
"Why does he keep saying that?"
I wouldn't say that's four CFs
Though Skip and Luddy have had time at CF this season, they are for sure corner OFs. I think it’s a bit gratuitous to say that we have “four CFs”
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
Totally agree
watching Crisp try to throw the ball yesterday reminded me of the enviable position we’re in with our OFers.
I didn't realize we could trade Barton I would like to vote again.
Let’s clear out some of the extra Outfielders sending them to a team weak on OF depth/Righties in the pen and strong on IF depth/ Lefties in the pen.
"Why does he keep saying that?"
Too soon to bail
on Barton. For once, he wasn’t pulled for defensive purposes yesterday. Skip came in to face Papelbon as Tony rolled the L/R dice a third time. Earlier in the season, Skip would have been out there to start the bottom of the seventh.
IMO, the main playing time problem is that we face more righties than lefties, we have two lefthanded hitting outfielders and Ludwick is playing too well to sit. TLR will want to keep the RH outfielder available for those days when we do see a lefties. Barton will be starting Tues and Thurs.
My $0.02
Maybe I’m a little biased because I like him so much, but I think we should try to keep Brian Barton. I’d see if we can work out a deal with Cleveland, maybe see if they’d bite on taking Hoffpauir or Jay in exchange for his Rule V status. That way we could send him down to Memphis and get him some regular playing time.
Also, I’ve been out of town since around 6 PM Saturday until late last night, so I didn’t get to participate in the game threads for the last part of Saturday’s game and Sunday’s epic. I must say that our lightly-regarded MIF (by me mostly) had a heckuva series, and Adam Kennedy had a great game yesterday. Kudos to AK on that! Now let’s go take care of the Tigers.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
I would have a problem with trading Jay for Barton
since they’re basically the same player and Jay is what, 5 years younger or so? Jay is basically a AAA player right now but is being blocked by a bunch of outfielders. IMO, it would be trading a much younger version of the same player to play the same position in the organization. And Jay might have a slightly higher upside, but I’m not sure about that.
I agree
Plus I think Jay has more power potential than Barton.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Barton, if my memory is correct,
is second in the league in pinch hits. So, looking for a better pinch hitting option off the bench would be very difficult, even out of Mather/Rasmus/Stavinoha. Barton is dealing with getting very little playing time. What time he does get in the field, he makes sparkling plays defensively that mostly get yawned over.
As a pinch hitter, he is still hitting ~.300 with a ~.800 OPS. He has taken over the So Taguchi role on this team, even though he is much quicker and appears to have more raw power than Taguchi. In high/medium leverage situations, Barton is hitting .294.
The problem with sticking to our guns with Skippy as full-time starters is that he is AWFUL vs LHP. Skipp is hitting .172 with a .441 OPS compared to Barton’s .226/.670. Sure not the greatest line vs a LHP for Barton but a significant upgrade against sending Skippy up to flail helpless at it.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 23, 2008 12:36 PM EDT reply actions
I thought he was 1st
In number of pinch hits and second in PH average. Im okay with Barton staying in the PH role and starting for skip against lefthanders.
Does Mather have the speed though?
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Mather MIGHT be a better hitter
but Barton gives speed off the bench in addition to whatever his bat provides.
Amen. And let's face it,
we are going to have to move some OFers this year or next. And I’m talking Ank or Luddy, possibly, in order to trade for pitchers or middle infielders who have actual value. If I’m Moz, i’m crossing my fingers that Skip’s season continues strong, and then I’ll go all Kent Bottenfield on his ass after the season. (BTW, I’m not implying that he’ll bring an Edmonds-caliber return, of course.)
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 23, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree Totally.
Trading the older (relatively) rookies while their stock is high (particularly “at odds with career norms” high for Skip) has got to be seriously considered. And when it happens, presumably for MI help next year, guys like Barton are going to be the workhorses in a younger/cheaper outfield. Trading guys like Barton for pennies, or worse giving him back for nothing would be a waste.
-- Aidan Sonoda
In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas.
by Aidan Sonoda on Jun 23, 2008 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately...
that doesn’t work anymore. Major league teams now employ people who are at least as smart as we are.
The Houston Astros
Seattle Mariners, and Toronto Blue Jays respectfully disagree.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 23, 2008 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The numbers don't lie. Let the kid fill his role. I am flip flopping again. Keep Barton.
by the way he had a real nice catch on Sunday.
"Why does he keep saying that?"
ah
I see you too compared him to Taguchi. nice work!
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 23, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
This, honestly,
is sort of what I was afraid of when the year started. I didn’t expect the team to contend, and I thought it would be a nice chance for the team to see what they had in a couple of players and reset for the future.
Now, they look like serious contenders, and suddenly the equation has changed. Everyone says that now they have to approach things in a win now fashion. You need to send Barton back, you need to trade for another starter, we need that one more big bat to put us over the top. That kind of thinking scares the hell out of me. It’s just that kind of thinking that got the Cards into such bad shape in 2007. They’re starting to build something great here again, I believe, but trying for that big, splashy move to add vet talent now is just the kind of move they need to avoid. They also need to avoid dumping talented, dynamic young players for nothing.
Personally, I still believe Brian Barton’s ceiling is very high. The Cardinals need to think very long and hard before giving up on a talent like the Crab Man.
What this book presupposes is, maybe he didn't?
Thank you for trying to be the voice of reason....
Care must be taken before you start trading in the now for the future. So very easy to be carried away…...and the Brewers have come back to life so you could trade today for tomorrow and end up not having today after all. Does that make sense?
I do wish that Mr. Mozeliak would take a long look at who has a future with the organization and who doesn’t. Then trade or release the players that don’t fit in, and aquire the players that do fit in.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Agree with your first paragraph
Am having a little trouble with the second. Sounds a little too “easier said than done” to me. If it were that easy, anyone could be a successful GM, but what’s good for us is probably good for other teams and vice-versa.
And for what it’s worth. I’m almost 100% convinced that Mo has taken that long look at the organization you wish for. I’m sure he did that before he was even the general manager. This isn’t his hobby, like it is ours, this is his job and one I’m sure he would like to keep.
Honestly
If Brian Barton being our 5th outfielder is our biggest concern, we’re in pretty good shape.
Well who the hell can see forever?
Agree
once again, we have to stop being so concerned with what is good for the player as opposed to what is good for this team. Some times those two go hand-in-hand, some times they do not.
Well ...
unfortunately it’s not our biggest concern.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 23, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
For what its worth
I don’t think the team really needs to change much at all. I know there are those out there that you mentioned, but I’m not one of em. I still look at this season as a rebuilding/reloading season. If this team ends up competing for the division or wildcard, fantastic. But I don’t think you then start to mortgage the future, just to have some playoff success. IMO, this team is flawed (yet extremely talented)and overachieving, but who’s to say this doesn’t continue through the rest of the season?
I feel this team is more than 1 or 2 moves from being a serious title contender this year so a big move right now, or in the near future, seems misguided in my eyes. My sights have always been set on 2009 and 2010. This team can continue to over-achieve and I’m still fine if they fall back to Earth a little.
The only change I would desperatly want to see in regards to this year’s team is to it’s bullpen, most notably the left side. And those types of changes rarely cost the team in the long run.
by Tackle Box on Jun 23, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm in agreement to some degree...
the team doesn’t really NEED to change – I’d like to see the current roster managed a little better. Iz2 should be only a backup MIF and Kennedy really should be released. Flores should not be used as a LOOGY, but as a mop-up guy. However, I do see this team as a serious contender. With Pujols back this week, Wainwright on the horizon, and Carp’s rehab going well this team looks pretty strong to me. The only question is whether we can hold off the Brew-Crew.
I disagree with regards to Izturis.
He is hitting .279 with a .731 OPS vs LHP. Coupled with his very good defense and a platoon for him would not be a bad thing.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 23, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure that's best
He plays great defense – and his struggles came when he became a platoon player in LA, CHI, Pitt. I believe that the glovework he brings is the key to the overall upgrade in team defense this year. I’ll take the great-field, little-hit shortstop… no-glove, little-hit Duncan – not so much.
Is is safe to say
his defense has greatly helped our staring pitching with that whole pitch to contact thing?
Who do you recomend platooning him with?
Ryan has better numbers vs. LHP (.748 OPS) than Iz2 plays comparable defense, and can actually hit righties (thought not that well).
Agree with Hardcore
All things considered, Iz2 is probably the best MIF we’ve got. He’s got awesome defense, and his bat hasn’t been TOO terrible this season, although nothing to really drool over, either. You’re in a bad spot when Cesar Izturis is your best MIF, but he was brought here for his defense and he has delivered. Adam Kennedy needs to be let go, that’s for damn sure, even after his spectacular weekend in Boston.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
Per Strauss,they aren't thinking that way
I don’t know if Kennedy has pictures of Tony eating veal or what, but they seem to be giving him a lot more rope. Flores, however, I think is on his way out.
by Red in Chicago on Jun 23, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The thing with Kennedy
is that he’s still under contract for next year, and as long as he can still play plus defense and have the occasionaly Jim Edmonds-like game (unfortunatly he doesn’t have the Jim Edmonds-like month JE is currently having) he’s going to be on the roster the remaind (or majority) of the season. The front office isn’t going to cut bait on that big of an obligation.
And who would be his replacement?
He’s as good (or bad) as any of other middle infielders. He’s better than Miles in the field and Ryan isn’t any kind of an upgrade.
Well, his replacement
I think obviously would come from another organization. This outfit needs to understand sunk costs. Kennedy’s contract is an obligation they have to bear, but that doesn’t mean they have to bear his awful hitting.
by Red in Chicago on Jun 23, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong
He doesn’t need a replacement. We don’t need to have 4 MIF’s on the team. Iz2, BR, and KMs can cover him
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
Well
since we can’t feasibly upgrade the outfield without trading someone. Why not make a much more feasible upgrade at second? We do have pieces in AAA that could bring in someone with more power than either Miles or Ryan.
by Red in Chicago on Jun 23, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
I see your point about not playing Kennedy below. But I think the only way that happens with TLR is if he’s off the team.
by Red in Chicago on Jun 23, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
We'll agree to disagree then...
I feel Ryan is a better MIF than Iz2…offense and defense considered.
Ryan's up there
But my dream scenario is Iz2 SS Ryan 2B, Miles backup, Kennedy selling hot dogs in the stands
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
We're close...
I’d personally rather see Miles out there. He’s adequate at 2B and MUCH better offensively than Iz2.
I think the team should be able to use some of it's redundant players
at AA or on the big league roster to get either a starting pitcher or second basemen that can be controlled for the next few years. Unfortunately, there are very few of those out there. Otherwise, they should consider riding this out with what they have…only making minor deals to get LH relief help.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 23, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
Through the many discussions on this board I’ve come to believe that the true problem with the MI is that there aren’t really that many significantly better solutions out there.
Sure Brian Roberts is better than what we’ve got, but is he so far superior that we’d willing to give up an top pitching and position prospect? I don’t think so, and I’m pretty sure that’s the minimum that Angelos would ask for.
Uggla
can be controlled for a while. Florida says that no one else is “hands off”.
If they can have a rough 30 days heading towards the deadline, they may loosen a grip.
He wouldn’t be cheap, but throw him in 2nd or 6th in the lineup and all of the sudden it adds to the idea of fear.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 23, 2008 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
It would be easier to pry Cano from the Yankees
In other words, don’t count on the Cardinals having the means to acquire Dan Uggla, no matter what the FSN Ohio says.
I don’t know.
I know it won’t be cheap, I really don’t think either will be cheap.
If we did somehow happened to cash in on him, Ryan would need to play a lot more often because he would be able to compensate the lack of range Uggla would give us (compared to who we have now)
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 24, 2008 4:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm surprised...
there’s really a debate going on here about this. We need a right-handed platoon partner for Skip. Mather is an above average defender and he’s got a 1000 ops in AAA. Get him up here right away.
What the Cardinals SHOULD be doing is to cut bait with Phelps
and have Mather playing as many innings as he can at 1B/3B. He can make this team as a legit bench option as a utility player to give Troy Glaus/Albert Pujols those days off Tony ‘promised’ at the beginning of the season.
I fear Troy Glaus’ foot is going to fall off one day in the future and everyone is going to throw a chit-fit because TLR didn’t rest him as he promised. Dude is logging a ton of innings.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 23, 2008 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree about Mather playing 1st
I just don’t think he can get enough playing time at 3rd to legitimately call him a backup option at third at the major league level.
+1
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 23, 2008 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Mather
I don’t know if Mather is the best option or not…...... I was just agreeing that Glaus needs time off otherwise his foot may fall off… It’s not too bad with Miles or Ryan at 3B if Albert is at 1B but it would be nice to have a bit more pop and a more natural 3B backing up Glaus when need be.
OTOH,we have
an awful lot of off days in June, I think Glaus will be fine.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 23, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Remember, Mo fills the roster
That was established early in the year, and I have a very hard time believing he is simply going to send Barton back to Cleveland halfway through the season. If it were halfway through April, maybe, but we are 3 short months away from having a VERY nice player, even if a role player, for virtually nothing. In fact, I would be surprised to even see him traded, unless a special opportunity came along.
wow
lots of replies to this post. my thoughts:
I was surprised how popular a player Barton is based on the poll results. apparently, most people (including me) want him on the team right now.
Does anyone think of Barton as the successor to So Taguchi? I do. and I think Barton’s defense is vastly underrated. just a hunch though.
We need to see Barton play more before we judge him. Dude skipped the minors for the most part too.
Well, he’s been a great 4th outfielder/pinch hitter/runner. That said, if he fits into the right package (or maybe skip?) let’s trade him!
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 23, 2008 3:51 PM EDT reply actions
Plattooning is a sign of
Mediocrity. Or less. This team can afford some help. A front line player and a high quality bat of the bench to back up Glaus…............ How about Lohse to the Phillies for Dobbs and Romero. They might throw in a prospect too.
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on Jun 23, 2008 4:14 PM EDT reply actions
Plattooning is a sign of
Tony LaRussa management
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 23, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
How about Lohse
to the Phillies for myers and dobbs. We would have a closer and a very strong pen. Back up for Glaus and a great pinch hitter….......... They would jump on it…....
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on Jun 23, 2008 5:16 PM EDT reply actions
why would they want Lohse back?
I just don’t see them wanting the same starter they had last year after they let him go
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 23, 2008 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
unless they consider him "fixed"
by Duncan’s coaching
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 23, 2008 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
If it's not broken...
We have quite a bit of glut across the OF this year and headed into next year. 3 AAA’ers are/have made a case for some ML seasoning. At least one (Jay) if not more is prospecting their way into attention for next season/2010.
So I think we should entertain any trades that will help us in other areas with the team that involve our OF and if we go past the trade deadline we only have to get through August before we’re in expanded roster mode where it’s clear Barton won’t hurt us then.
Every one of our OF on the 25 man supply something that the other doesn’t. Barton has speed that the others wish they had, Skip has filled the leadoff mold that Tony wants, Rick has continued to shine on defense with glove and arm and Ludwick has done reasonably well in the 4 hole this season.
Duncan is, and will continue to be the odd man out until he can find his swing.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 23, 2008 7:56 PM EDT reply actions
If Barton is still a Cardinal at seasons end, do you look at putting him in a winter league this year to give him some playing time before heading into next years PT?
He really shined in Spring Training and lost his mojo when he rode pine, would he prospect better/give a better idea on how he’ll be if he takes that on?
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 23, 2008 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you have to consider winter ball
He’s 26 and needs plate appearances as much as anyone in the organization.
Great idea
The guy needs to play but with our current OF situation I can’t really justify taking anyone else. Maybe we have a few exhibition softball leagues so we can get a 10th out there????
He needs the winter league to get a chance to get better.
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