Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: RSL Soapbox for Real Salt Lake Fans!

Lohsing My Religion

Really, guys? You lose three straight, at home, against the Kansas City Royals, scoring a total of four runs, then go into Boston and suddenly look like a real baseball team again? The hell?

Of course, while the offense did look much better last night than it had in the previous few days, the real difference maker was the starting pitching. Specifically, the difference was one Kyle Lohse. It's not hard to look like a good baseball team when your starter goes out and puts up a performance like the one we were treated to last night.

I was watching the game last night with my friend Chris and his girlfriend. Immediately after Lohse escaped the fifth inning, (after which, by the way, I excepted Lohse to shout out ta da and put on cape and top hat) I turned to Chris and I asked him if you sign Lohse to an extension. His immediate answer? Absolutely. Guys been nails. You've got to keep a guy like that around. His answer did soften slightly upon further discussion, what with the whole Scott Boras factor, as well as the rotation situation going forward, and a thousand other little things that tend to weigh in on what seems like it should be such a cut and dried answer.

So let's take a look. Can the Cardinals afford to sign Kyle Lohse to a contract extension? More importantly, can they afford not to?

So far on the year, Lohse is pitching to the tune of a 3.63 ERA. That essentially puts him in the range of a solid number two starter. First off, is that kind of performance sustainable? My first inclination, honestly, would be to say no. Not based on anything concrete, just my opinion of what he's been for the rest of his career. If we look at the numbers, though, the story is a little different.

Lohse isn't striking out a ton of batters this year, only 44 in 94.1 innings. To me, that's a big red flag. A pitcher who only strikes out something in the range of 4.00 batters per nine innings just isn't missing enough bats to carry forward these numbers. However, Lohse also isn't walking anybody, with only 23 free passes on the season. It doesn't entirely put to bed the fears about his low K rate, but if he continues to force hitters to hit their way on base, with as good as the Cardinals' defense has been this year, he shouldn't absolutely just fall off the map.

Lohse currently carries an FIP of 3.63, so his ERA definitely isn't an illusion, nor does it look as if the fielders are just standing on their heads to save his ass every time out. FIP is much less vulnerable to huge variation, so again, it looks as if this pace isn't out of the question.

Early in the year, it looked as if Lohse's numbers could have been largely a product of an unusually low home run rate. He didn't allow a single long ball until something like his sixth or seventh start, if I remember correctly, and an unusually low number of balls hit in the air against him were going out. If we look at those numbers now, it appears to have evened out. This year, 4% of the flyballs Kyle has allowed have left the park. That's a fairly low percentage, but not at all a glaring anomaly. Last year in his stint in Cincinnati, the flyballs against Lohse converted into homers at a 6% clip, and after going to Philadelphia, the only NL park that's even more of a bandbox, that number actually dropped to 5%. Pitching in a pitcher's park like Busch III, when compared to what he did last year in a couple of hitter's paradises, that 4% number looks to be sustainable as well. Even if it does jump up a tick or two, though, into the 5% range, the effect on Lohse's ERA should only be enough to move him a little closer to the 4.00 range.

Of course, the biggest difference in Lohse's profile this year is the number of groundballs he's getting, along with that very low walk rate. He's throwing worm burners at a 48% rate right now, as compared to a 36% rate in Cincy and a 42% rate in Philly last season. In 2006, when Lohse first came to Cincinnati, Lohse did post a 50% GB rate, bat that's the only time in his career he's ever come close to that number. Until now, that is. Combine that with walking less than six percent of the batters faced, and you have a recipe for success.

So, what can we conclude about Kyle's performance up to this point in the season? Well, honestly, it looks as if it's probably sustainable, at least to a certain extent. He's not getting unusually lucky in any facet of the game, really. It isn't as if he's getting knocked around and the balls are just staying in the park, the fielders aren't bailing him out constantly, and he isn't walking a ton of batters. His BABIP is a little low, at .279, but that's not absurd, particularly with a strong defensive backing. The low strikeout rate does worry me, but other than that, it looks as pretty much everything is all in line for Lohse this year. I have to admit, I think he can perform right around these levels going forward. This looks like one of those situations where the combo of a pitcher and the right pitching coach and team defense has led to a very good performance, one that shouldn't disappear in a puff of smoke.

So, what does that mean for a potential contract for Lohse? Well, that's a little more complicated. Under contract for next year, the Cardinals already have Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright, Joel Pineiro, and Todd Wellemeyer. If they were to sign Lohse, that's five pitchers. Sounds great, right? You need five starters, they would have them. Problem with that, of course, is that the Cardinals also have a pretty fair amount of talent in the upper levels of the minors that could very well be ready to step in to the rotation next year. Pitchers like Jaime Garcia, Mitchell Boggs, who we'll get another look at today, Kyle McClellan, Clayton Mortensen, and even Jess Todd could all potentially be ready to step in to the starting rotation next year. Obviously, you don't want to just pencil one or more of those guys in just yet, but you also don't want to block the pipeline to the point that there aren't any spots to be had when your young talent is ready to move up.

We can't assume that all of those pitchers will be healthy, I suppose. Still, Carpenter should be back next season. His recent elbow setback doesn't appear to be serious, so I feel pretty comfortable assuming he'll be there. Wainwright's finger won't prevent him from pitching next year. Welley's balky elbow is a bit worrisome, I must admit. Yes, right now, it looks as if he only needs some more rest, but how many times have we seen a pitcher come down with 'just some soreness' that ends up as a harbinger of future arm troubles? Pineiro should be healthy; his injuries this year haven't been of the arm problem nature. So it's not as if the Cardinals have reason to believe they'll need to fill one of those starters' slots.

Kyle Lohse is represented by the Scott Boras company, of course. We all know the story with this offseason, how he waited too long to sign and ended up on a one year deal with the Cardinals mid way through spring training, etc. I honestly don't know what sort of history Boras clients have of signing extensions during the season, but I can't imagine it's a particularly extensive one. Boras loves to get his guys to free agency, where they have all the leverage. And with Lohse settling for a one year, make good deal this past year, I have to imagine he'll be looking to bank on his career year.

I would think that, at this point, the 4 yr., 40 million dollar contract Lohse was reportedly seeking this offseason will be a nice starting point after this year. He and Boras will probably look for something more along the lines of the deal that someone like A.J. Burnett got a couple of years ago, at 5/$55. Lohse is right in the prime of his career, and will expect to be signed as such. The Cards might be able to get him for a little less, considering how well he seems to have taken to working with Dave Duncan, but I can't imagine you could even get close to the guy for less than 4/$40. So, what should the Cardinals do?

Is Kyle Lohse worth a 4 year commitment, at likely $10 million+ annually? You already have four pitchers under contract for next season. You have at least two pitchers in the system who will compete for a spot out of spring training, Garcia and Boggs. There are two others who could very well be in the mix, in Mortensen and Todd, and you can throw McClellan into that mix if you decide to move him out of the 'pen. I'm assuming there's no way that Anthony Reyes is still somehow hanging around next March, and I can't imagine the team being interested in what a Mike Parisi or Brad Thompson brings at this point with so many other available options. So, the Cards' list of possible starters for 2009 looks a bit like this:

Carpenter

A.D.A.M.

The Colonel

Jo-El

all under contract, and:

Boggs

Garcia

Mortensen

Todd

McClellan

all in the mix as well.

That's nine pitchers for five spots, if you don't sign Lohse. To me, the real problem here is that second year on Pineiro's deal. Of course, maybe that makes him more attractive as a trade candidate this year, but it's tough to see the Cardinals trading away a veteran pitcher if they manage to hang around in contention late into the year.

So, is Kyle Lohse worth an extension? Do you do it now? Do you wait, knowing that each successful start just drives the price even further up? Do you try to negotiate after the season, with Palpatine hanging over his shoulder? Do you let him walk and take the draft compensation?

It's a tough question, and I really can't make up my mind about it. What do you guys think?

0 recs  |  Comment 129 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

I think Lohse will be asking for too much, kinda like Weaver after '06

Let him walk, or trade him at the deadline

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 21, 2008 11:48 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

Seems like Jeff Weaver all over again.
Does the lower K rate coupled with the lower HR rate mean that Lohse is keeping the ball down and (GASP!) pitching to contact? Just joking.

Boomer.

by glamboomer on Jun 21, 2008 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

don't think we'll see him in '09

but I don’t think we’ll trade him in ‘08 either. If we continue to do well this year, I’ll look back and say we just wouldn’t have been competitive without that late spring training pick up

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 21, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Flip him at the deadline

to the Yankees for Robinson Cano

with Cano having a down year, it’s a feasible trade.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jun 21, 2008 11:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

+1

I have pushing this same agenda

by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 21, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That'd be breath taking.

A MI that can hit? In a cardinal uniform? That’s like big foot, Nessie, or mark prior.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jun 21, 2008 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

good point

also, the Yanks are always in win now mode. Theyve proven in the past, that they will do whatever/ spend whatever, to put a solid team on the field. I’m not sayin its worked out recently for em, but it is what it is.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on Jun 21, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you are in "win now" mode

and you’ve decided to offer Robinson Cano (which ultimately hurts your “win now” chances), do you really set your sights on Kyle Lohse, considering what else might be available?

by Tackle Box on Jun 21, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

would you rather have

Sidney Ponson throwing for you, or Kyle Lohse?

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on Jun 21, 2008 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Apples to Oranges

They didn’t offer Robinson Cano for Sidney Ponson.

Would you rather have C.C. Sabathia throwing for you or Kyle Lohse? Ponson was roster filler that was quick and cheap. They haven’t pinned their hopes on Fat Ass. Plus, he pitched fairly decent with Texas this year.

by Tackle Box on Jun 21, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like you said

They didnt have to throw any thing at Sid because he was waived by TX. I dont see C.C. being a Yankee this year because of the depleted state of the Yankee system. Yes, they have some trade chips, but they were unwilling to let most of those that were worth any salt go to acquire Johan; I dont see them letting them go to get C.C.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on Jun 21, 2008 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Houston and San Diego

Some might say “unsustainable” when looking at their starting pitching and that they’ve been beating up on the Astros and Padres. And it goes deeper than Wang getting hurt. They sucked with him in the rotation and now he’s out.

Besides, I don’t think they’d do that trade anyway, under any circumstance, so IMO it doesn’t matter what their record is.

by Tackle Box on Jun 21, 2008 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think he is worth talking to

But unsure if he is worth what he will be asking. I most say that I like Lohse. I enjoy watching him pitch while wearing the BOB>

Is Pujols with the team right? I just finished running the Komen’s.(raised 3.3 mil btw.) And there was a guy handing out water that looked just like him. Same height and build. Freshly shaved head and a goatee. No one was talking to him like he was Pujols and I just finished running and didn’t want to bother him(or look like a fool.)

If it was him. I’d like to give Kudos for him for donating his time. I’d also like to say, what the hell are you doing carrying cases of water and wearing sandles! Don’t you know you have a calf injury!

And if it wasn’t him. Kudos to the guy passing out water anyway.

by Evilfrog on Jun 21, 2008 11:53 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I doubt it was him

but that would be awesome. Still, the guy’s too much of a competitor to miss his own team’s games.

by Phizzle on Jun 21, 2008 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was noted in todays paper

that Albert is in St Louis this weekend. So, in theory, it could have been him. Of course, in theory, communism works.

Well who the hell can see forever?

by Alxfritz on Jun 21, 2008 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not according to Hayek, on communism that is.

by enoscountry on Jun 21, 2008 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

...

hayek is hot.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jun 21, 2008 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

She has huge…personality…

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 21, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh yeah.

We had pretty good starting pitching in the KC series. So it wasn’t the pitching. Just a flat offense. And they did throw some good pitchers at us.

by Evilfrog on Jun 21, 2008 11:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Didn't say

the pitching wasn’t good in the KC series, just that it was the biggest reason for the Cards’ success last night.

What this book presupposes is, maybe he didn't?

by the red baron on Jun 21, 2008 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

gotcha

I need sleep.

by Evilfrog on Jun 21, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For 4/40 No

too many holes in MI to fill. BUT we have to make sure Carp and Welle are healthy. Lohse would be an excellent replacement for either/both.

You hope he/Boras are smart enough to see that staying in StL is a good thing—learn from the Weaver mistake. Plus the Cards may be 1-2 players short of championship run. Hate to miss out on that.

by gocards62 on Jun 21, 2008 11:55 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

that's what I was thinking

for next year, who knows who is going to be healthy? it’s a long ways away… I just don’t expect all for of those contract guys to be starting at that time, knock on wood. it would just seem too normal for the cardinals.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 21, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

First-pitch swinging & Fox online question

For the first pitch swinging defenders out there, apparently Schumaker pulled one on the vet Wakefield (from ESPN):

“I made one mistake that cost us the game, the two-run homer by Schumaker,” Wakefield said. “He swung at the first pitch. That’s the last thing I expected to happen.”

Skip has a .556 AVG on first-pitch swings (and contacts) vs. .332 AVG for balls in play.

Also, what’s the website that streams fox broadcasts online? I live in OH so I’m getting the Dodger/Indians and remember last year there was a website to watch other Fox games for free (saw the Dodgers vs. Cards last year).

by enoscountry on Jun 21, 2008 11:55 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

TV

Try www.channelsurfing.net and use Internet Explorer, not Firefox.

by 10worldchamps on Jun 21, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let him walk

There are already 2 pitchers locked up well into the future with Carp and Adam. I know we can’t count on Carp to be healthy for that contract, but I think giving Lohse the money and years that will be needed to sign him will only restrict options in the future. I think the organization would be much better served to count on Carp, Adam, and the kids for the future.

by stickman179 on Jun 21, 2008 11:59 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yeah

even if all 4 of the contracted starting pitchers actually start, there’s a ton of talent ready to come up. and Welley might be ready to return to the bullpen by then (maybe as our closer?)

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 21, 2008 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Long term deals for pitchers always leave me conflicted......

They are all an injury risks every time they step on the mound. I’m almost ready for a team to just give a one year huge contract with the rights to negotiate another year.

You know, the one pitcher I thought would never have a problem was Big Z…..he had never missed a start his ENTIRE career. He got a huge long term contract last winter, and he’s going to miss a start with shoulder irritation-maybe more.

So I don’t know. Hope that helps…...

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 21, 2008 12:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Could they do a two year, two option year contract?

2 years at say $19 mil, first option year at $12 mil, w/ $3 million buy out, second year option $14 mil, 1.5 million buy out.

If it works out, it’s a 4/45 deal. if not it’s a 2/22 or a 3/32.5.

Wouldn’t mind seeing him on the team next year, but doubt the Cards want to spend that kind of money.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jun 21, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

was thinking the same thing.

kinda. little smaller in numbers, but incentives on IP (since that’s what most pitching incentives are based around).

Make it where if he performs well and stays healthy he could walk out of here 40 million richer, but give us outs as it’s fair to say we need some reassurances. (He is pitching for a contract, not because he *has one).

Dangle that in front of him, if he bites then we may be onto something, if not. Package him in a trade chip and land something cost controlled for a couple/three years.

The scary part of using the trade chip is that technically how things stand now, we have Pin on contract next year and everyone else (at this moment) is under an injury cloud (waino, carp and welly).

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 21, 2008 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lohse is an IP machine: average of 178.5 over the last six years.

FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG

by astrostl on Jun 21, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so keeping a few million tied under an IP incentive shouldn’t be an overall concern for him, and would give us injury related reassurances.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 21, 2008 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe he'll want to do another one year deal

since Boras seems to like those pretty well too

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 21, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ain't gonna happen, but...

I stick my nose in HERE because Jill nailed what MY hope would be (given the wonderfully laid out complications of the opening to this thread and my own queasiness about long-term contracts for pitchers)...viz, offer Lohse a one-year extension now, (at 8 to 10 mil, say) with a club option for 2010 at something like 10 to 12 mil.
That, to me, would be the Solomon/Judge Judy approach: a bit of a compromise which is fair to both sides and something of a risk to both.

On the emotional side of things (mine)... I have appreciated what I have seen of Lohse so far (last night being a good example) and he is ‘beginning’ to feel like a legit BOB wearer, to me. BUT… at this point, he still feels slightly more like a Hessian to me than a true ‘Cardinal.’ If he is offered and accepts a deal similar to the one I proffered above then he WILL quickly become a Cardinal in my heart and I would start supporting and defending him even if he gives up eight runs in four innings, on a given night.
As it stands right this minute, tho’, if we flipped him soon, I wouldn’t cry.

Bottom line metaphor: does he want to follow the Jeff Weaver path or the Chris Carpenter one?

by the Tewk on Jun 21, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He'll profile better for me if he

doesn’t get shelled by the Cubs his next go around. Give me some of that vs Redsox style pitching against the tellytubbies and I’ll start pushing for him.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 21, 2008 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who knows

I don’t have a strong opinion re: signing Lohse to a long-term deal. My sense is that Boras is big on his clients testing the free-agent market and it might be complicated from that standpoint. If Lohse continues to pitch as he has, his value as a free agent has to be considerable.

Can the team count on Carpenter? I wonder. Maybe by the end of the season it will be easier to project his future health, although even then I wonder about his effectiveness. I hesitate to say he will come back and immediately become the staff ace again.

Pineiro’s contract hamstrings the team. Personally, I’d like to see what Boggs and Garcia and McClellan can do.

A couple things about last night’s game, which was way too much fun to watch. In the at-bat that resulted in Lugo hitting the tying home run, I was hoping Lohse might push him off the plate. He was struggling with his breaking ball at the time, Lugo wasn’t offering at any of them, his fastball was his most effective pitch, but Lugo was looking for it as the one pitch he had to deal with. Something tough inside might have made Lugo less comfortable up there. I’m not saying hit the guy. Just get in his kitchen and give yourself a better chance with that low fastball on 3-2. I don’t see Cards pitchers moving hitters off the plate very often.

It worked out in the end. Great game.

Other thing I wanted to mention because I think you might appreciate it, Red Baron, is I thought Dan McLaughlin was going to wet his pants when Ramirez came up with the bases loaded and at that point I turned off the sound and put on the Firewater cd The Golden Hour. Have you heard it? I think Firewater is one of those bands that are pretty much all about one guy, in this case Tod A. He spent a lot of time recently traveling in Pakistan and Turkey and other places and recorded with musicians in those countries. Great sound, you could call it world music (sorta), but it rocks. Really a terrific cd.

by Youneverknow on Jun 21, 2008 12:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I was just rocking out

To Song long Superman about 10 minutes ago. But I haven’t heard the Golden Hour.

by Evilfrog on Jun 21, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

my friend just saw this tour a week or two ago

sounds really interesting, I like weird sounding instruments

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 21, 2008 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

remove iz

inject Ryan. one of the lesser injuries we could have. all in all

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 21, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah.

But who comes up?

by Evilfrog on Jun 21, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if it were me?

Barden. If not Barden an OF and rotate the other three MI through the DH period, then see from there.

However, I’m assuming Ryan still won’t get the starts. Miles will take a chunk of them.
And will prolly get another pitcher. *

Tonyball 101

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 21, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sb borked that, ignore the highlights

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 21, 2008 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

just please don't let it be D'Angelo Jimenez

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 21, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have a feeling this will mean seeing a lot of Miles at SS, too, though

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 21, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

indeed

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 21, 2008 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Could this be a chance to see if maybe Brian Barden has learned any lessons in AAA?

He’s been hitting well enough to at least look/see…....

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 21, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather

let Ryan play full time and bring up St Stavinoha or Mather to DH full time on the road trip

Well who the hell can see forever?

by Alxfritz on Jun 21, 2008 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather that too

at some point we’re going to need to see if Barden can translate though. Because with Koz, (Greene if he can get his game together) and Niko could be creating a log jam in the next year and a bit.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 21, 2008 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

corner IF

Now that Ryan will be starting at SS, we need another corner IF. Could be Barden as he can also play 3B. Mather would be ideal (right handed power bat) so we can platoon him with Duncan at 1B or DH. But is Mather healthy? Freese is another option. If Stavinoha can play 1B, another intriguing option. We’d need to add him to the 40 man roster but that shouldn’t be a problem. Sorry Uncle Rico, your time on the 40 man has expired.

by jjray on Jun 21, 2008 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of the DL

Zambrano is on it now

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jun 21, 2008 12:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Why do I have a feeling that the season is going to come down to a one game playoff

where the starting pitchers are Pie and Miles?

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 21, 2008 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pie definately has better velo

but Miles is just so crafty and definately wins out in experience.

by Tackle Box on Jun 21, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And gritty

Don’t forget gritty.

by punditmoi on Jun 21, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

good post and good questions

Home Runs as a percent of outfield flyballs. The home run totals are adjusted by the home ballpark’s historic home run rates. Research has shown that about 11% to 12% of outfield flies are hit for home runs. For pitchers, significant variations from 11% are probably the result of “luck,” but for hitters this stat is more indicative of a true skill (hitting the ball hard!).

but i’m not aware of any analysis that suggests his HR/FB is sustainable.

kyle lohse has a career non-park-adjusted HR/FB of 10.0%. pick some other great pitchers though. johan santana: 10.0%. jake peavy: 10.0%. chris carpenter: 12.4%. the only significant deviation of which i’m aware is extreme groundballers putting up elevated numbers, like webb at 13.7%. you’ll find dudes hovering just below 10, but i’ll be surprised if you can find anyone holding low to mid single digits.

lohse’s FIP is 3.73, but his xFIP is 4.55. the only difference between the two calculations is that xFIP adjusts FIP to what would have been if the pitcher allowed a normal HR/FB rate.

i thought lohse was a value and a perfect fit for 2008, but i personally wouldn’t sign him to 4/40M. he might even ask more. i’ll confess that i’m skittish about even mid-term pitching contracts, but he’s 29, has a career FIP of 4.57, and i presume we’ll get a draft pick if we let him walk as a free agent.

FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG

by astrostl on Jun 21, 2008 12:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

probably worth noting that carp is a high but not extreme groundballer too.

FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG

by astrostl on Jun 21, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow!

That is the longest link I think I’ve ever seen.

Nice!

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on Jun 21, 2008 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe

I thought it was neat though.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on Jun 21, 2008 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

anybody think

that after the Greek Tragedy year that boras had last hotstove he may come down to reality this year and be easier to deal with? Especially with more and more GMs getting towards moneyball 2.0?

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jun 21, 2008 12:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That's what

I was thinking too…

Boras has taken quite a beating lately…he might be easier to deal with, and Lohse seems to enjoy playing with the Cardinals.

Lohse might be reasonable on the amount per season, but want 4-5 years, which is something I don’t think Mo should give up.

"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver

by player2bnamedl8r on Jun 21, 2008 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Depends, supply and demand wasn’t the greatest last season and other teams had different priorities. If Lohse goes at this pace other teams are going to notice and Boras is going to have some fun with it. Someone will bite, I’m sure.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 21, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think there's anything that will make Scott Boras

easier to deal with. He still gets it done, even with a couple of hiccups.

by Tackle Box on Jun 21, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Explore options, but make the best deal

I say you see what value he has at the trade deadline in July if we fall out of contention. If we are still in it, then play out the season and see if you can sign him to an extention. If it is too expensive, offer arbitration and see what happens. You’ll either get him to sign for a year, or you pick up a first round draft pick or at worst first round supplimental pick. If he continues having the year he’s having now, you are looking at a Type A free agent. Win situation all around imo.

by cardinal fan in chicago on Jun 21, 2008 12:59 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Thats the key point....

I highly doubt that we could get as much value from him right now as we could if he is a Type A FA. Obviously he’d have to finish the season out strong, and the draft class next year isn’t supposed to be great, but its still the best option. Most people on this board are overestimating his value right now. Just because he’s got good numbers doesn’t mean he’s this good. I just hope he can make it through the season without the numbers catching up to him…

There is no way the Cards could justify signing him to an extension. He’s going to ask for close to 10 million a year for at least 3 years. That would put a serious cramp on our search for a MI that can hit, a power hitter behind Pujols, or a true top of the rotation starter. With players like Furcal, Sabathia, and Sheets available this offseason, spending money on a middle of the rotation guy doesn’t make sense. We have guys that in the minors that will probably be capable of filling a 3rd or 4th slot in the rotation next season (especially Garcia).

I can’t think of any justification to sign Kyle Lohse to an extension…not one…

by CrimsonBirdFan on Jun 21, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

10 million per for 3 or 4 years

is actually a good deal for a quality starting pitcher with the track record Lohse gives you. Actually, it’s probably on the cheap side.

by Tackle Box on Jun 21, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One more pitcher we could have next year

I can’t believe your forgetting about that guy that’s pitching in the minor’s right now, and has been had several surgeries while the Cards have been paying him a lot of money. I seem to recall his name is Mark Mulder. I think we traded Danny Haren for him several years ago. As much money as the Cards have sunk into him I think he owes a free season or two.

by sbentley on Jun 21, 2008 1:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i doubt he forgot – i think most are simply not counting on anything.

FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG

by astrostl on Jun 21, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll settle for

6 wins and a get the hell out of St Louis card.

Sounds good anyways.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 21, 2008 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was being sarcastic…

by sbentley on Jun 21, 2008 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How about this plan?

Instead of 4/40 for Lohse, 3/40 for AJ Burnett?

No, don’t think that’ll work?

Drat.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 21, 2008 1:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I like Burnett Also

I am actually with you on Burnett also, No contract for any pitcher over 3 years.

by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 21, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the AJ kick

the way I could see it actually work is trade for him from Toronto. When you get AJ, tell him to not opt out of his contract at the end of the year. Tell him you’ll up his annual pay to $12 M in 09, $14 M in 10, and extend him 1 extra year to $14 M in 11.

I doubt he’d take it and we’d probably be better off just waiting for him to opt out if we really want him.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 21, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

-1

3 years ago, you could have put me at the front of the line for the “AJ Burnett to the Cards” pig roast…
Now.. not so much.
In fact, I really don’t want anything to do with that guy…
Both organizations he’s played for have had “issues” with him & I don’t want the headache here.
Love the K’s. Love the groundballs. Don’t love the guy.

Of course, I’m now in the front of the line for the “Give Rasmus & Anderson to the Indians for Sabathia” pig roast…

Boomer.

by glamboomer on Jun 22, 2008 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would vote NO

I am not a fan of giving pitchers, any pitchers, long term contracts. I would rather pay a little more every few years rather than risk getting sacked with an unbearable contract if they break down.

Anyone elze remember how Mike Hampton was shopped as “ultra durable” and “not an injury risk” right before his huge contract? We don’t yet have the ability to evaluate risk acceptably.

So my plan is to acknoledge this. And tie up the position players to long term contracts and filll out the starting pitching with short term contracts and young talent. Yes you will get a higher scoring game all around but provided you put out a good defense we can continue to take 2nd tier pitchers like Loshe, Suppan, and Marquis and make them look acceptablle to good. That gets the job done.

A 2B or SS that can field and hit will win us more game over the next 5 years than Loshe.

by DriverZn on Jun 21, 2008 1:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

More money

doesn’t always satisfy the player. I know that sounds crazy, but when you consider you could get paid a bunch for 2 years as opposed to just slightly less than a bunch for 4 years (guaranteed), more often than not the player is going to go for the 4 year deal. It’s security.

To get a player to sign for less years, you really have to go way above what the player would recieve in a long term contract and hope another team doesn’t up their long term offer.

by Tackle Box on Jun 21, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Off topic

I was watching the LSU CWS game last night, and I really liked what I saw from LSU pitcher Bradford. He wasn’t overpowering, but his sinker had GREAT movement and he seemed to have a great head for what he was doing. I liked his delivery and he was a groundball machine. Even though he was a later round pickup (18th?) I have high hopes for him in this organization. I’m interested to see what we can do with him.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 21, 2008 1:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i'll add some context to what you seen.

2 days rest, came in the first inning being down by two with the bases loaded. got the double play to get out of it. pitched 5.2 innings of 1ER, 2BB, 5K ball on 76 pitches (49 strikes)

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 21, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

His velo was down compared to advertised

so it very well could be. Hopefully someone took notice though, because if that’s the result of him not pitching 100%, that’s a sick result. There was a few where the movement was unreal. Jaw dropping even

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 21, 2008 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just thought I'd point it out

I’m going with the Comcast (White Sox feed) of the Crosstown “Classic” today with hopes of changing our luck with the cubs. Usually, I don’t like listening to Len and Bob, but in all seriousness, they’re better than listening to Hawk Harrelson bitch about the umpiring for 3 hours.

Go Pale Hose.

by Tackle Box on Jun 21, 2008 1:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

now here is a situational pithcer that tony would druel over

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-switchpitcherdebuts&prov=ap&type=lgns.

Imagine if here were a starter, and allowed to change sides once per at bat. Could he legitimately throw upwards of 200-250 pitches per outing if that were the case? Thoughts to ponder. lol

by streamman on Jun 21, 2008 1:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Too old

I think TLR would chose a former start-turned reliever with no arms than a guy that could throw with both.

I keed.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 21, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Saw that on sportscenter today

It was like a pissing match between the pitcher and hitter.

by Tackle Box on Jun 21, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i hope that kid gets a chance to compete in the majors

because jockeying like in the linked video will be the stuff of blooper reels for years to come….

by nota bene on Jun 21, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Labrum and rotator cuff surgery

If you want some positive vibes about a pitcher coming back from the surgery, look at today’s rookie starter for the Reds Daryl Thompson. In 2005, he had labrum and rotator cuff surgery (similiar to Mark Mulder). The 22 year old has made it all the way back pitching and is in the big leagues now with some nasty stuff, a low 90’s fastball that can touch 93-94 mph. He has extremely good command.

While this guy had the surgery at 19 years old and youth may be a reason for increased chance of recovery, it is at least a instance of someone actually making it back from such a devastating injury.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 21, 2008 2:03 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

cool reference – thanks!

FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG

by astrostl on Jun 21, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

don't look now

but Jimmy just hit a solo homer in Wrigley….

by nota bene on Jun 21, 2008 2:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

my fault

I went into the other room that had WGN (cubs feed on it) and the cubs went back to back. Now I’m back to Comcast. Btw, he grimised big time after he hit it. You could tell his foot is bothering him. He did it in the outfield earlier too.

by Tackle Box on Jun 21, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They are stealing signs with the centerfield camera

I’m fucking convinced of it.. You’ll notice the WGN feed keeps going to a different camera when the AJ is putting down signs.. that’s because the camera is zoomed in on the fingers and being fed to somebody in the cubs dugout.. It’s so obvious it’s ridiculous.

They just put up 8 runs in 1 inning against a pitcher who was cruising along..

by cloistermaximus on Jun 21, 2008 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure I buy that

I wouldn’t be surprised, but I don’t think that’s what’s happening. However, I’d love to see Ozzie G. accuse them of it in his postgame presser, or maybe get into a bean war with them. That would be entertaining.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 21, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cubs blow it open

with 8 runs in the 4th and still only 1 out. Solo shots by Edmonds, Fontenot and a 3 run basket shot cheapie by Ramirez.

by Tackle Box on Jun 21, 2008 2:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Blech

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 21, 2008 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

edmonds

2nd hr of the inning.

by Tackle Box on Jun 21, 2008 2:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Easy to hit it when you know what's coming

It’s like guessing the pitch in a baseball video game.

by cloistermaximus on Jun 21, 2008 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK

I call bullshit…..sounds like cloister’s on to something.

by nota bene on Jun 21, 2008 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't realize this was

Bleed Cubbie Bleed.com

Who’s pathetic now?

by Tackle Box on Jun 21, 2008 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

pa·thet·ic (pə-thĕt’ĭk) pronunciation also pa·thet·i·cal (-ĭ-kəl)
adj.

1. Capable of arousing scornful pity.
2. Using a goat or a fan to pass blame for lack of winning a world series. see Chicago Cubs

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 21, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Edmonds change HR
Font fastball HR
Soto fastball GO
Theriot walks
Marquis curve 1B
Fuku fastball 1B
Patterson curve 1B
Lee fastball 1B
ARam slider HR
(pitching change)
Edmonds fastball HR
Soto K

So it’s not like they were keying off on one pitch or anything…..

by nota bene on Jun 21, 2008 2:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Contreras wasn't exactly locating real well

He was throwing a lot right down the middle.

by Tackle Box on Jun 21, 2008 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Resigning Lohse

Um, if its a reasonable deal, I’d say resign him now. Unfortunately it won’t be a reasonable deal.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Jun 21, 2008 2:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I dunno about Lohse

but I’d prefer the Cardinals keep McClellan in the bullpen – they don’t need to go messing with him trying to make him a starter, IMO

by Pitchers Hit Eighth on Jun 21, 2008 3:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

the last month or so, i've been thinking...

trade, or draft pick. personally, i like the former as I think a team desperate to get to the playoffs might deal some pretty good players for a pitcher flat dealing this year.

by HoosierCardFan on Jun 21, 2008 3:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Incredible

The collusion suit will begin after the administration change in Washington. Do any of you know how much insurance money the Cards are receiving on the Carp / Muldur contracts?
Do you know whether this GM will go into the building mode as planned, or continue as is because the cards are staying around the top of the division?
20/2 killing….... Kyle beats Philly …...momentum and choking philly for 2nd a win….....no balls pathetic sweep by a week KC team at home….......Kyle takes on the Red Sox …has to throw an extra 40 pitches to overcome errors and poor play. They have old mo again and are working the sox as we speak…..........All of you fantasy players, imaging some value on your nickel and dime statistical evaluations…...... enjoy the games while you have a chance. Try to appreciate good athletic performances when they happen….. Do any of you have any idea what the Cardinal Org. profits really are…......You would be amazed!!!!!!!!!

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on Jun 21, 2008 4:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think my brain just exploded

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 22, 2008 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Specifically, the difference was one Kyle Lohse."

Really? Was it? While I agree Lohse had a good game…I don’t think he was the difference. The difference was that they scored one more run in Lohse’s start than they scored in all 3 Royals games combined.

Lohse went 6 innings, allowing 8 baserunners and two runs (one earned) for a 56 game score (GC.)

In the previous three games:
Thompson went 5 innings, allowing 5 baserunners and two runs (both earned) for a 50 GC.
Looper went 7 innings, allowing 5 baserunners and one run (earned) for a 63 game score.
Pineiro went 7 innings, allowing 7 baserunners and one run (earned) for a 63 game score.

The starting pitching was BRILLIANT in the Royals series, the hitting was simply putrid. If the Cardinals would have averaged 5 runs a game that series, they would have swept. If the Cardinals would have scored 4 runs each game, they would have won 2 of 3. Instead, they scored 4 in the entire series.

Anyway…I just thought that Lohse was not THE reason the Cards won yesterday (although it did give you a great segue. (sp?)

by stlfan on Jun 21, 2008 5:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

And this is what you gleened from my rant?

There is a correlation between team moves and profit here…......The starting pitching has carried a sub-par team. “Brilliant pitching” will cease to exist if the team doesn’t make a few non pitching moves. Do you know why they aren’t?............ Do you know how much “showbiz” is involved in the Carpenter senario? Do you know what the betting lines were yesterday, and why?

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on Jun 21, 2008 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uhhh....?

My comment was not a response to yours. I replied to the original message. Sorry…just bad timing.

by stlfan on Jun 21, 2008 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wait a minute

are you saying that Carpenter’s injury is fake? Are you also saying the games are fixed? If you are going to make statements like that you better be sure to back em up.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 22, 2008 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you

watch too much Fox News?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 23, 2008 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.
Start posting about the Cardinals »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Avatar_small
How to EASILY make tables for Fanposts
1753738656_110919ebe9_o_small
2010 Hot Stove Post #1: CHONE hitter projections

Recent FanPosts

Arch_small
Number 15
Small
Some thoughts on Holliday (and potential replacements)
Small
Ok let me try this again...
Knights-09_small
Disenchanted Blue Jays Fan Looking For A New Team
Painterlance_small
The Holliday Dilemma (Rocks Fan Perpsective)
375830-r1-025-11_011_small
Anybody read Bob Gibson's new book yet?
Flanders_small
Yadi2first
Small
40 Man Question..

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Jack_benny_small DanUpBaby

Editors

Bender1_small azruavatar

Adam1_small chuckb

Kid-a-bear_small the red baron