If You're Feeling Sinister
Okay, so who, at the beginning of the season, believed that the left side of the Cardinals' bullpen would be, quite possibly, the worst aspect of the entire team? I won't lie; I did not. I thought the bullpen would be the strongest link in the chain, and the lefties would be pretty damned solid.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I was wrong.
Still, I suppose it's not fair to lay all the blame for that lifeless showing of last evening on Ron Villone. You're not going to win many games when you only score one bleeding run, I don't care how good your bullpen is. I will say, though, that we expected the offense to struggle with Albert gone, and to make things worse, we're now seeing Jason LaRue starting on a daily basis. By the way, can I just take a second to say how stupid I think that is? This is a concussion we're talking about with Molina. The Cardinals need to use every single bit of caution they can muster to keep Molina from coming back too soon. Playing with only one catcher available, especially when said catcher is one of the worst hitters in the game of baseball, is not in any way being cautious. That's just tempting your manager to put the guy back in there way before he's really ready.
Right now, though, I think that getting a new lefthanded reliever may just be the absolute number one priority on Mo's plate. The Cardinals simply cannot continue to hand the ball to these guys on a nightly basis. Villone is bad enough, but Flores is the one really killing me. Villone shouldn't be in the game in a high leverage situation like the one we saw last night, period. Still, though, he does have some use as a guy that can come in and soak up some batters in low lev situations. Flores, on the other hand, is the first lefty option out of the bullpen when the game is on the line, and he's allowing more than 40% of his inherited runners to come in and score. That's beyond normal bad; that's almost impossible to understand sort of bad. When your primary lefty specialist allows almost half of the men on base when he comes in to the game to come home, you simply can't count on winning many close games.
Look, we all know that, no matter how much sense it might make, Tony La Russa is never going to change his slavish devotion to his matchups. He's always going to go with a lefty, no matter how awful his performance may be, to try and get out a lefty. It's just part of the package when you're dealing with Tony. So really, the only option is to try and go out and get better lefties.
First off, what about old D'Artagnan's brother, the one down at Memphis? Ron Flores has been pretty solid. Unspectacular, but solid. He's striking out better than a batter per inning, (39 in 34.2) and has only walked 14 on the season.Most importantly, he's held lefthanded hitters to a .227 average. Is he the weapon that Tyler Johnson was against lefties? No, but who is? He would certainly be an upgrade.
What about some players from another team that's really, really out of it? How about John Grabow, of the Pirates? He's holding lefties to a .250 average against, but more importantly, has only allowed a .371 SLG. Again, he's not lights out, but that's pretty solid. He's youngish, (29) and couldn't be all that expensive.
Damaso Marte? Also a Pirate, he's devastating against lefties. He's allowed them a .244 avg., but also strikes out nearly 15(!) batters an inning against lefthanded hitters. He's older, at 33, but might be even easier to pry away because of that.
How about the third lefty in the Pirate 'pen, Sean Burnett? The former big time prospect currently sports a very unsightly 7.31 ERA, but has been murder on lefties this season, allowing them only a .150 avg. against. They've slugged only .300 off Burnett also. Granted, it's in a very small sampling, (22 PA) but it's tough to find a large sample size when you're talking about a specialist sort of role. Burnett has been used largely in mop up duty this season, and has struggled, but his numbers against lefties are very good, and to me, the numbers jibe with about what he should do by the eye test. He's got a funky, crossfire delivery that has to be murder on batters from his side of the plate and a really nice breaking ball. Burnett is also the youngest of the three lefties in the Pittsburgh relief corps, being only 25. He could end up being a nice little investment to shore up the bullpen for several years.
How much would any of these players cost to get? I'm honestly not really sure, but I'm sure it couldn't possibly be that steep. The Cardinals have a ton of depth in righthanded relievers; package one or two of those guys together and get some help from the sinister side at the ML level. Hell, just see if you could get one of them for cash considerations. The Pirates have three lefties in their pen right now, and they don't need all of them. I'm sure they would be willing to move one to possibly get some help down the road. Maybe a Shane Robinson gets it done.
You want to shoot a little higher, you say? You don't want some other second division team's specialist castoffs? Well, George Sherill of the Orioles is said to be available, for the right price. He's been dynamite for Baltimore this season, with the exception of a little hiccup this past weekend. What would it cost to get Sherrill? Oooh, that's a tough one. You'd probably have to give up a much better prospect, a guy like maybe an Allen Craig or the like. Would that be worth it? I'm not so sure. Sherrill is currently serving as the O's closer, so they'll ask for a premium to get him. Personally, I think you could find a guy to match his performance, at least in a lefty specific role, for much less.
The bottom line is this: the Cardinals are suffering right now in the bullpen. The left side, in particular, is struggling to give the Birds quality innings. It's not a big, splashy move that's going to suddenly change the complexion of the team overnight. But the little, incremental moves like upgrading your situational relief can end up being the difference between being right in the thick of things come September and being just far enough out that you can't quite climb back in it.
Look, this year was all about transition, right? I've said it all along, and I stick by it. I still want the Cardinals to look squarely toward the future with the moves they make this year. But acquiring some help for the left side of the bullpen isn't going to cost you your top prospects. In fact, it probably won't cost you anything you're really going to miss. (Although, come to think of it, I probably would have said the same thing when the Cards traded for Jason Christianson...) This is a chance to make a real upgrade to the team without having to mortgage the future. I think that Mo needs to be exploring every available option to try and shore this up. Not just because of last night's game, either. this has been a problem for a while now. This team simply doesn't have enough margin for error to be losing close games because of bullpen troubles. If you can buy even one or two more wins in the standing without giving up one of your big time prospects, I think you have to count that as a good use of resources.
Thoughts?
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I'd rather have
Brian Fuentes over any of the other guys you mentioned. He can throw a whole inning and not just be a lefty specialist, he has a lot of experience closing games, and he’s playing for a team that’s 15 games below .500 right now and is a sure bet to be a seller at the deadline. I’m not sure how much he’d cost, but I can’t see it being as much or more than Sherrill, and I’d rather have him anyway.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jun 18, 2008 8:29 AM EDT
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Fuentes
is a good idea. I completely forgot about him.
What this book presupposes is, maybe he didn't?
by the red baron on
Jun 18, 2008 8:33 AM EDT
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He's the pitcher that any team could use on their staff......
Bidding for his services would be fierce. He’d be worth it, because he’s so much more than a loogy and has filled many different roles for the Rockies with nary a complaint. Move him to #1 on the list.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 9:24 AM EDT
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He's going to be a lot more expensive
than the other guys out there, especially if the Rockies continue to play well (9-4 in their past 13). The Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs also are interested (according to mlbtraderumors.com) and Fuentes is a free agent after the season. The price might be too steep for a 3-4 month rental, imo.
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by TurdFerguson on
Jun 18, 2008 9:56 AM EDT
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Wait...
Why would you assume that he’s a 3-4 month rental? Izzy’s contract expires after the season, leaving a hole at the back end of the bullpen. Fuentes might decide to work out an extension if he wants a shot at being a closer. The other three teams you mentioned aren’t going to be needing a closer any time soon from the looks of it, so we may have a bargaining chip there in terms of resigning him. He’s never had a season like Cordero, so I doubt anyone throws a $40 million deal at him.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jun 18, 2008 10:00 AM EDT
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Why would you assume he's not?
My point is that value-wise, is it worth getting into a potential bidding war for a guy who may very well decide to test the market after the season instead of focusing on a guy like Grabow or Burnett who would be under team control for a longer time at a reasonable price.
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by TurdFerguson on
Jun 18, 2008 10:04 AM EDT
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If we see him 29 other teams do as well.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 10:05 AM EDT
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Value
Well, if “value-wise” Fuentes is going to be the piece that gets the team to the postseason, while Grabow and Burnett may not, then most might think the price would be worth it.
3-4 months of lights-out Fuentes might have more value than 3-4 years of Grabow or Burnett, no matter what the price.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on
Jun 18, 2008 10:33 AM EDT
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not risk free
Fuentes was the closer for Colorado until he imploded last year. He has pitched pretty well this year, and seems to have recovered his mojo, but I don’t think that we should assume that he will be light’s out for 3-4 months. I would rather find an in-the-system stopgap than give up valuable prospects what might be only a few months of service.
by cdb on
Jun 18, 2008 10:37 AM EDT
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There's kind of an odd set up in Colorado with Fuentes/Corpas.
The last two seasons, they kind of rotate back and forth between set-up and closer. When Fuentes hits a rough spell they switch roles, when Corpas hits a rough spell, they go back to Fuentes. You only acquire Fuentes if you intend to keep him, not just rent him, because they will rightfully ask for a lot. There are not a lot of pitchers that can slot in both places. And of course, he’s a lefty.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 10:47 AM EDT
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-1
this team should be focused on not sacrificing any prospects for rentals of any kind. for the long-term world series type success it doesn’t matter if we make the post season or not this year. mo’s gotta keep his eye on the ball for next year.
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!
by sportsman on
Jun 18, 2008 9:46 PM EDT
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chris perez?
if we’re going to let izzy go, it wouldn’t make sense to sign a free agent closer (or extend a guy we’ve acquired via trade, i.e. fuentes) when we’ve already got a quality guy who’s ready to step into the role.
go cards, o's, and phillies.
...boiler up.
by moboiler on
Jun 18, 2008 11:14 AM EDT
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and a few prospects that could look good in an 8th inning role
a cheap 8th inning/9th inning combo would be nice in ‘09, with the books losing a lot of cash, it gives us advantages for other things
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 11:18 AM EDT
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Perez for Closer!
But we still need some guys from the left handed side. Fuentes doesn’t necessarily have to be the closer. But it’s great that he CAN be….....
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 11:31 AM EDT
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but if the Rocks are asking for a closer ransom for Fuentes then it is better to move onto the next available option imo with Perez in the stable
by njnick on
Jun 18, 2008 11:44 AM EDT
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And they'd be foolish not to......especially since Fuentes is a lefty and closer +.....
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 11:48 AM EDT
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Since Colorado would be trading away their closer
don’t you think it would make sense they would want something similiar and cheaper in return? I.e. Chris Perez?
by Tackle Box on
Jun 18, 2008 11:58 AM EDT
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If we are just thinking about the ones you listed
I would be excited about a guy like Sean Burnett. Yeah, he was at once a decent prospect and while he doesn’t seem to have the stuff that they thought, it looks like the role of a LOOGY would suit him perfectly.
by JBagKY on
Jun 18, 2008 8:39 AM EDT
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I wish we would have signed the lefty we faced last night, Mahay........
That is if they knew Tyler Johnson would go down. ......Burnett would seem to be a good long term solution. I bet the Pirates know that and won’t just give him up for nothing. One thing the Pirates don’t have is right handed starters. Offer one or two of those…...
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 9:04 AM EDT
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Garcia
What about Garcia? He may be a future starter but that means he can give you an entire inning lefty or righty. Anyone know his splits? Man I wish Johnson was going to be back this year.
by StLHugo on
Jun 18, 2008 9:10 AM EDT
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From minorleaguesplits.com
This topic came up a couple of days ago. Unfortunately he doesn’t have a lot of plate appearances against lefties so the usual sample size disclaimer applies. Unfortunately, you can’t go back past this year to see his history. I do see some potential in here – might be worth a try. Being a bull pen guy didn’t exactly hurt Wainwright’s development. If I’m reading correctly, he’s only given up singles to the lefties he’s faced (slg = avg) and his OBP is higher because of the walks. K/9 is really good so I’m liking it.
IP – 3.7
Walks – 4
Avg. – .286
OBP – .474
Slug – ..286
BABIP – .500
k/9 – 14.73
Complete link here
by birdo rojo on
Jun 18, 2008 9:38 AM EDT
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more numbers
Was about to post, but you beat me to it, birdo. I think those are Springfield-only numbers, so I’ll add this to the mix:
At Memphis, per MILB.com, his ERA vs. lefties is 7.94(11.1 IP) and against righties, it’s 2.72 (36.1 IP). Full numbers here:
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Jaime%20Garcia&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=448802
Sample size obviously still very, very small, but so far the numbers don’t exactly scream, “LOOGY!”
by DCGreg on
Jun 18, 2008 9:47 AM EDT
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Ok
does that mean he’s throwing to entire lineups of lefties and righties then? A better stat would be BA against for each type of batter. He might have given up 3 hits to righties and then the one lefty in the lineup smoked a 3 run double off of him.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jun 18, 2008 10:04 AM EDT
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a fine question
that I don’t know the answer to. But if you want ‘em the respective batting averages are .354 for lefties and .228 for righties. (Obligatory small sample size disclaimer here.)
by DCGreg on
Jun 18, 2008 10:15 AM EDT
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I'd like to see Garcia up
maybe after the All-Star break. We’re going to want to be watchful w/ his innings anyway. The only thing is - if he’s brought up, I’d like to see him given the chance to get lefties and righties out - as Villone was last night.
As for his splits this year, it’s far too small a sample size to be concerned about. As a lefty, he’ll be tougher on lefties than he is on righties. The guys w/ reverse splits over their careers are very few in number. I think that right now, he’d be better than either lefty we have in the pen but he’s gotta get his innings in at Memphis also. Maybe call him up in a month. Won’t he be as good as Grabow or Burnett?
by chuckb on
Jun 18, 2008 9:54 AM EDT
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IMO
leave him down and bring him up when the roster expands.
He’s still developing and can use the innings to work on things. Letting him chill on the bench doesn’t scream best idea in the world to me.
Then let him start, so he doesn’t start getting into platoon issues that Tony will try and employ
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 9:57 AM EDT
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+1
I was hoping that we could find a band aid at the deadline for the LOOGY corps and then bring up Garcia come September for a Wainwright-type breaking in process. Of course, Mo will have to make clear that he is not a career LOOGY, merely a end-of-the-2008-season-LOOGY.
by bgh on
Jun 18, 2008 9:58 AM EDT
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Salas
makes me think more of a Waino like candidate.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 10:00 AM EDT
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Salas is not a starter
Waino like typically means a starter being given a bullpen audition.
by StLHugo on
Jun 18, 2008 10:08 AM EDT
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I'm talking toolset
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 10:10 AM EDT
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ah
I don’t know Salas’ toolset but I would be tempted to agree with that except that Salas has such a high K rate which to me means he has a slightly different set then Waino
by StLHugo on
Jun 18, 2008 10:12 AM EDT
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From what I understand
Apparently he has just great command of a curve ball and other breaking stuff. I would like to see him at AAA where hitters are more prepared for pitchers with good breaking stuff.
by FlimtotheFlam on
Jun 18, 2008 2:24 PM EDT
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HC, I will say one more thing, then drop it.
I accused Sabathia yesterday of being fat but never of being lazy. He IS overweight. That will definately affect his long-term health. His knees are taking much more stress than they need to. Will they hold out into his 30’s? Maybe. Zambrano sure is looking okay as he enters the second half of his career, and he is carrying more weight than he has to. I have long-term health questions, though, about trying to sign C.C., as I worry about the continued health of his wheels.
And, by the way, I gotta say you are killin’ me here! You jumped on me for calling Dunn fat and lazy, saying that there is no room for name calling. Lo and behold, I find you calling Bill Bavasi a moron, of all things. He may be a terrible GM, but you and I both know that if he were a moron, he never would have been selected as a GM.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on
Jun 18, 2008 10:02 AM EDT
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Get serious!
You accused Adam Dunn, yesterday, of being fat and lazy. Here’s the link. I don’t know where you said anything about Sabathia. That was somebody else the day before. Or maybe you called him lazy yesterday as well and I didn’t notice. Don’t you pay attention who you’re criticizing?
I didn’t say there was no room for name-calling. I was saying that if you were going to slander someone, you should document it. Do you need me to document all the reasons why Bavasi’s a moron? My guess is, since you recognize that he’s a terrible GM, you do not. Your only motive here is to try and play “Gotcha!”
As for Dunn, I don’t know if he’s lazy or not but I’ve never heard from anyone, other than you, that he is. Dunn’s a very good baseball player. I can document all the reasons why, if you like, though others did that quite well yesterday. He’s also a big guy. If he’s lazy, tell us what you know and how you know that. If you regret using the word “lazy” to describe him, say that as well. We all say things from time to time that we regret.
Yesterday you tried to defend your use of the term “lazy” to say that he’s terrible defensively but you should be aware, they’re not synonymous. He’s bad defensively. We can document that. If you want to say that he weighs too much —whatever. Lazy - back it up. Now, we can both drop it.
by chuckb on
Jun 18, 2008 10:18 AM EDT
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good point on the innings
He threw 137 innings in 06 and 103 last year. Currently at 82 this year. Houstoncardinal, what do you figure his max ought to be this year – 150 or so? If so, assuming 6 innings a start he gets there by mid-to-late August. He could probably be an asset in the bullpen during the stretch run, so it’d be useful to save some of his bullets.
by DCGreg on
Jun 18, 2008 10:23 AM EDT
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I'm no expert on pitching
but I would guess 150 or so is probably a good number. Maybe even 135-140 starting at Memphis and then another 25 or 30 in relief w/ the big club. Just a guess. They should be careful w/ him as he’s young and ended last year injured and I’m sure they will. Wainwright threw 182 in 2005 at Memphis so I would say 180 is the absolute MAX but probably closer to 165?
He could be very useful w/ the big club, I believe, if used correctly but he does still need to pitch. If he pitches for another month at Memphis, that gets him to around 120. Maybe he’s at 135 at the trade deadline. We call him up and he pitches 20-25 the last 2 months w/ St. Louis. There’s 155-160. That’s probably a good number and some good experience, right?
by chuckb on
Jun 18, 2008 10:29 AM EDT
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I'd agree
Those last 20-30 in the bigs would be a bit more spread out as well so the stress would hopefully be minimized.
by birdo rojo on
Jun 18, 2008 10:34 AM EDT
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sounds like we have a plan
who wants to tell Tony?
by DCGreg on
Jun 18, 2008 10:39 AM EDT
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Have Grit do it
“Hey Tone – I’ve got an idea.”
by TNTinCO on
Jun 18, 2008 12:13 PM EDT
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LOL
But that would probably work.
by cardsgirl95 on
Jun 18, 2008 12:39 PM EDT
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we should get Miles on here
we all love Miles now , right? I know he has won me over.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jun 18, 2008 6:58 PM EDT
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Another neat pitching feat.......
King Felix struck out the side on 9 pitches last night…...Rich Harden did it in a game last week. Hit it, Meatball!
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 9:14 AM EDT
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6 consecutive strikeouts on 20 pitches
n/t
That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.
by Solanus on
Jun 18, 2008 4:10 PM EDT
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Marte...
You said Marte is striking out lefties at 15/inning? That confused me… is this an error or am I not understanding something?
by cd on
Jun 18, 2008 9:18 AM EDT
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My Guess
I assume he was talking about 15K/Per 9 IP
by FlimtotheFlam on
Jun 18, 2008 9:22 AM EDT
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That's a beautiful number there.......
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 9:25 AM EDT
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lefties
I agree on the point that the cards need a shut down lefty, but I disagree on the ease of aquiring one from another team. The Pirates trio (or at least grabow and marte) will be hot commodities come the trade deadline. I think they’ll be able to sell very very high on those guys to a team in the middle of a playoff race (much like the Cardinals seem to be). Burnett would be a wise option to pursue right now since they’ve got the other two still and it may help to gauge what they could receive for the other two, but then again, the Pirates are perennially building for the future and as he is young and assumingly cost controlled, why sell him off when he could be useful next year and the several years down the road. Now… Sherrill… I like him, but I think he’d cost much more than a Craig. He’s been a shut down closer all year. Fuentes will cost a fortune as well. I was very disappointed when the Cardinals didn’t pick up Erik Threets when he had been DFA’d. He seemed like a guy that had the stuff to do it. But then again, he was DFA’d by the Giants, so what do I know. Ron Flores may be the best option. He’s already in the system, we’ve already paid for him, and he can’t be worse than his brother can he? I don’t like moving garcia up either… keep letting him start. If we need him in the near future I’d rather have him ready than have to have him go through the transition of converting back to starting. If all else fails let Miles throw. I know he’s not a lefty, but the man is a simply a beast. I mean, look at him.
by flipthebird on
Jun 18, 2008 9:38 AM EDT
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I think its time
Lets move Pujols…............ thats it! Pujols for the Pirates. That way we take what we need, and put the rest in the minor leagues… This would also make their rebuild a bit simpler. And we could throw in Duncan…....maybe they wouldn’t check the bag….......
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on
Jun 18, 2008 9:41 AM EDT
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Interesting...
Is he worth as much as the entire Pirates roster?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jun 18, 2008 12:12 PM EDT
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Is the entire Pirates roster
worth as much as Pujols?
by Tackle Box on
Jun 18, 2008 12:14 PM EDT
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we'd have almost 4 teams worth of OF
not meaning on the worth side of things, but between both clubs there’s a boatload of OF
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 12:25 PM EDT
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+1 RB.
I think this is exactly the kind of thinking that the Cards need to be doing here. They can see what they can acquire without blowing up the core prospects in the system. I will hazard a guess that deadline acquisitions will be a bit cheaper this year, as more and more teams are unwilling (or able) to deal decent prospects for rental free-agents. This is the first year in SO long that we might be able to trade a prospect or 2 and not actually hurt the farm system substantially. The draft of Wallace sure adds to the OF/1B glut in the system (I am assuming he may move to LF), and makes several more players expendable. That includes the likes of Mather, Duncan, and others.
Bravo, my man!!!
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on
Jun 18, 2008 9:57 AM EDT
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Mulder
I wonder what the odds are of Mulder going to the pen as a left guy. If he’s throwing in the 90s with movement, he could definitely be a decent pen option if he doesn’t have the stamina to start.
by TheoSqua on
Jun 18, 2008 9:59 AM EDT
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If
...Mulder is throwing in the 90s with movement, then he is definitely a great starting rotation option.
I don’t know if you caught Goold’s post on the Mulder-Clement doubleheader in Springfield, but it was interesting, and heartening.
Mulder was impressive, which he has been in some rehab starts before, and displayed not only a new delivery but renewed and unexpected velocity….Still, consider this: In the last start of his halted rehab assignment Mulder hit 89 mph twice, and that was it. That was as fast as he got.
On Saturday, 40 of his 73 pitches were at least 90 mph.
He’ll have to do it again in his next start to confirm that his new, freer, easier delivery will consistently fire at that velocity with the same natural sink he showed regularly at 91 mph on Saturday.
I highly suggest reading the whole post because it features some recount of pitches thrown in various innings.
Stamina could be an issue, but they are going to milk his rehab for all its worth and if he is all right to throw 73 pitches, one would assume that 90 is not in the too distant future.
by bgh on
Jun 18, 2008 10:07 AM EDT
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God damnit
How can I get sucked in thinking Mulder could be good again??
Then again I’ve never had “Mulder sits 90-91” as evidence for that. That’s as encouraging a news as he’s had in three years.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
by joker24 on
Jun 18, 2008 11:59 AM EDT
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That isn't a half bad idea
Mulder may have to give up on being a starter anyway if he can’t get any stamina back, having him in the pen at least lets you see if he can get ML hitters out anymore.
by StLHugo on
Jun 18, 2008 10:11 AM EDT
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Could this bee our LOOGY?
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on
Jun 18, 2008 10:17 AM EDT
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Mulder joked as much
Of course, that was before he was throwing pain-free and hitting 91 mph. From the P-D:
The Cardinals’ eternally rehabbing starter was so fed up with the inconsistencies of his delivery that he told trainer Keith Sanders three weeks ago that he’d had enough. Over. Done. He was “going to come back as a sidearm reliever,” the lefty joked.
by bgh on
Jun 18, 2008 10:19 AM EDT
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This has no downside
as far as I can see. MM gets to face ML batters, build arm strength, and contribute. He can’t be any WORSE than RaFlores and Villone.
by gocards62 on
Jun 18, 2008 10:35 AM EDT
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Yes
yes he can—I have seen it with my own eyes…..lol
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jun 18, 2008 12:13 PM EDT
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I am not so sure about that
we have never seen Flores go for 3 or 4 innings. Imagine that disaster
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jun 18, 2008 7:00 PM EDT
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MIF
that’s my vote.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on
Jun 18, 2008 10:32 AM EDT
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Could be more expensive.
I think RB was trying to think of an inexpensive way to upgrade the team. Getting a good MIF might be tough if we are unwilling to let go of Garcia/Rasmus/Anderson.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on
Jun 18, 2008 10:35 AM EDT
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If we make it to the play-offs
We’ll go to a four-man rotation, and we can put Mulder in the pen.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on
Jun 18, 2008 10:39 AM EDT
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What did you say about my Mom?....Oh wait.. you said M. I. F....
"Why does he keep saying that?"
by Red Blazer on
Jun 18, 2008 12:51 PM EDT
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Shut down LOOGY for me
is first choice although it’d be a tricky trade probably.
Steriods is...is bad.
by Handsome Jimmy on
Jun 18, 2008 11:36 AM EDT
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If you could get both in the same trade
now THAT would be a feat. Shoot for the stars, Mo!
by rockin the red on
Jun 18, 2008 12:22 PM EDT
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I was surprised
to see LaRussa turn to Villone in that situation last night. I thought that Villone would be a better option in high-leverage situations. FWIW, he got the 2 lefties out. The problem, of course, was the homer he gave up to the righty in between them. I’d like to say that he should’ve just pitched to DeJesus, but w/ Gordon coming up behind Aviles, it was reasonable for Tony to leave him in to pitch to 3 batters. Villone’s just gotta keep the ball in the ballpark. Still, the fact that he did get the 2 lefties out gives me hope that, for the time being, LaRussa will turn to Villone rather than Flores when the situtation calls for a LOOGY.
As for what’s available - Ron Flores is no savior. He’s been as bad or worse than his brother for his career. I’ve already said that I’d like to see Garcia start for another month or so in Memphis and then be brought into our bullpen - as Wainwright was. He’d improve the pen and get some experience getting major league hitters out so that hopefully he can pitch in the rotation next year.
LOOGY’s are always available at the trade deadline but they often carry a high price. And I’ll say it again , is there any reason to believe that McClellan or Perez can’t do better against lefties than Flores is doing? Are we sure we even have to commit a roster spot to a 2nd LOOGY? If McClellan and Perez are better than who’s available via trade, maybe they should be pushed into higher-leverage situations and then Parisi or Brad Thompson, when healthy, can fill the mop-up role in the pen.
by chuckb on
Jun 18, 2008 10:07 AM EDT
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or you could fast track Salas and save Garcia for the expanded roster and keep him starting. Salas prototypes more of a Waino type of pitcher (well, to me anyways).
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 10:09 AM EDT
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Salas is a righty...
so how does fast tracking him solve a LOOGY problem? Unless you go without a loogy in which case I would rather have Reyes, Thompon, etc. there for mop up duty.
by StLHugo on
Jun 18, 2008 10:14 AM EDT
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Are we sure we even have to commit a roster spot to a 2nd LOOGY?
I don’t think we need two, for one.
Secondly, I think Garcia can benefit from more time in Memphis
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 10:17 AM EDT
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What about Boggs and his good overhand curve?
I know he has some location problems with it, but a good overhand curve can always get lefties out, no matter what hand you use th throw them.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on
Jun 18, 2008 10:19 AM EDT
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I am pretty sure I have seen teams
that only have one lefty in the pen. Really, what is the use of having a lefty that can’t get people out? I couldnt’t agree more with you HC about McClellan and Perez
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jun 18, 2008 7:03 PM EDT
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OT...All Star Balloting
Looking at the most recent voting totals makes me want to find a couple of Cubs and Stros fans and break some noses…or something. How is/are:
Derrek Lee leading Pujols?
Ty Wiggington even getting votes?
Miguel Tejada ahead of Ramirez?
Soriano and Fukudome leading all OFers?
Theriot ahead of Reyes and Rollins?
Soto leading all catchers?
Derosa and Matsui ahead of Uggla?
UGGHHH!!! Anyone else feel it too?
by cardzfanbub on
Jun 18, 2008 10:18 AM EDT
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Yes and No
Lee leading Pujols is ridiculous, even if Pujols likely won’t play due to injury. But, Berkman should start the Mid-Summer Classic. That man is murdering baseballs on a nightly basis. Tejada ahead of Hanley Ramirez is absurd. Soriano leading all OFers is bizarre (doesn’t Cubdom hate Soriano?). Fukudome is not at all surprising since his fans from Japan can vote. Theriot boggles the mind. Soto is good. Derosa and Matsui over Uggla is stupid.
I mean, really? I used to vote straight ticket Cardinals when I was in the first grade, but have realized how misguided that was—especially since home field now rests on the exhibition’s outcome. It’s like Cubbie fans are trying to sabotage their team’s shot at home field (if they actually believe this year is the year).
by bgh on
Jun 18, 2008 10:26 AM EDT
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Yep...
I have no problem with Berkman leading at 1B, and understand the Japan impact for Fukudome (can’t say I don’t have a problem with it…but what can you do?).
Soto is good, but he’s a relative unknown having a subpar (but good) year to a better known McCann.
by cardzfanbub on
Jun 18, 2008 11:22 AM EDT
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A lot of this fluctuates based upon home games
The cards’ votes sunk when they were on that last road trip, while Houston’s rose when we were playing them at home. I think the Cubs are benefiting both from the home games, and from having a second team in Chicago. It’s clear that many people are just voting for cubs.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on
Jun 18, 2008 10:35 AM EDT
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And it's not going to get any better
Did you see how many cub fans were in Tampa last night, watch again tonight and tomorrow.
And they’re all voting and voting. Then, this weekend, the cubs play another “road” game in Chicago, this time on the South side, with a butt load of cub fans voting and voting and voting.
by Tackle Box on
Jun 18, 2008 12:19 PM EDT
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Record
The Cubs have the best record in baseball. They also have a huge, nationwide fan base. I don’t see how you can be surprised by those vote totals.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on
Jun 18, 2008 10:38 AM EDT
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Plus they have everybody's favorite player that used to be on their own team......
Edmonds, Johnson, Lee, DeRosa, Ramirez, and the man with the name all of the teenagers snicker at…..of course they’re ahead. They get a lot of attention…....
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 10:52 AM EDT
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I didn't say I was surprised...
just said it made me want to hit somebody.
by cardzfanbub on
Jun 18, 2008 11:20 AM EDT
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Oh, no violence, please.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 11:28 AM EDT
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I've often wanted to hit somebody...
but followed through only once.
by cardzfanbub on
Jun 18, 2008 12:12 PM EDT
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c'mon Jill
we can dream about hitting Cub fans
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jun 18, 2008 7:04 PM EDT
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Ignoring DL, what is the best 25 man roster the Cards can field?
Assuming everyone is healthy (but not assuming prime, so Mulder can be assumed to be not very good right now) what is the best active roster we could field?
C: Molina
1B: Pujols
2B: Barden
SS: Ryan
3B: Glaus
LF: Ludwick
CF: Rasmus
RF: Ankiel
Bench:
OF: Mather
OF: Barton
MIF: Hoff/Miles (I think right now that would be a push)
MIF: Izturis
C: Anderson
SP: Wainwright, Carpenter, Wellemeyer, Lohse, Boggs/Looper/Garcia/Clement/Thompson…lots of options there
CL: Perez
SU: McCllelan
Kinney
Johnson
Flores/Villone/Flores/....yeah
Worrell
Springer
Too bad we can’t field that team
by StLHugo on
Jun 18, 2008 10:22 AM EDT
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You forgot Pineiro...
And he’d have to be penciled into that 5th spot with how he’s been pitching over the last 4-5 starts. All healthy concerns aside obviously. He pitched 7 innings of 4 hit ball last night and left with the lead…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jun 18, 2008 12:20 PM EDT
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He left with the game tied
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
by BigMOman on
Jun 18, 2008 1:06 PM EDT
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7 innings of 7-hit ball
But zero walks
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jun 18, 2008 1:07 PM EDT
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I like Barden for 2B. He should get a look. He is cheap and we don't have to trade for him...
"Why does he keep saying that?"
by Red Blazer on
Jun 18, 2008 12:55 PM EDT
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You really think
that an outfield of Ludwick, Rasmus, Ankiel would be better over all than Schu, Ank, and Lud?
I know Rasmus (supposedly, thought we have no Major League proof) is a better hitter than Schu, but why in the world would you move the best defensive CF in baseball to right field?!
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
by BigMOman on
Jun 18, 2008 1:07 PM EDT
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rasmus
rasmus can play just as good cf defense as ank can, if not better. now he obviously doesn’t have the arm ankiel has, but its still above average.
and who thinks ankiel can’t become just as good in right as he is in center?
by Glowsticks on
Jun 18, 2008 1:13 PM EDT
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If you have time, you should look at some of the Memphis games........
The archived ones are free. Rasmus glides to the ball…...it looks so natural and effortless. He could play centerfield right now. He’s going to be a fun one to watch.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 1:18 PM EDT
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Until Colby starts running around CF at the big league level you can't know for sure he is as
good as Ank in the field . Most likely he is above average but Ank has just been making some ridiculously silly good plays.
"Why does he keep saying that?"
by Red Blazer on
Jun 18, 2008 1:19 PM EDT
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It comes down to this.........
Rick is new to the OF and if you are playing OF, CF is the easiest place to play due to the fact that the you are not dealing with balls that are slicing as much like you see in the corner OF spots. Rick just did not look comfortable at times in RF last year. If Rick is this good in CF why not put Colby a “NATURAL” OF in RF and keep Rick where he is best defensively…..
It would be stupid to play Colby in CF if him and Rick are going to be playing in the same OF.
by ICbirdfan on
Jun 18, 2008 1:36 PM EDT
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it would be stupid to play rick in CF if colby is going to be in the same OF
Colby has played CF for many, many years. With his speed and experience, I would much rather him be in center than Rick, even if he is new to the outfield.
by Glowsticks on
Jun 18, 2008 1:54 PM EDT
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is centerfield in the majors
a different shape than in the minors or something? If not, this is an absurd assertion.
by azruavatar on
Jun 18, 2008 3:22 PM EDT
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the only thing
that I can think of is intimidation factor or possibly speed off the bat, both of which I doubt significantly
by StLHugo on
Jun 18, 2008 3:43 PM EDT
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everyone knows that Centerfield in the minors is shaped like a doughnut.....
"Why does he keep saying that?"
by Red Blazer on
Jun 18, 2008 3:54 PM EDT
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MMMmmmm...
Minor League Centerfield…
<drool>
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
by Mr Clean on
Jun 18, 2008 5:53 PM EDT
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During an unexpected moment of clarity
I figured out the “sinister” reference. Nice one RB.
"There is one word in America that says it all, and that one word is, 'You never know.'" Joaquin Andujar
by Big Mike on
Jun 18, 2008 10:22 AM EDT
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Carp Okay?
Did I miss it, or has there not been any discussion of the fact that Carp appears to be A-Okay?
If I understand this right, the prognosis is that Carp is back on track for a return in July or August.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on
Jun 18, 2008 10:41 AM EDT
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Gotta love the Belle & Sebastian reference
Great, great album.
by WastedTalent on
Jun 18, 2008 10:47 AM EDT
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Also enjoyed the nod to B&S
I would imagine that the Venn diagram of baseball fans and B&S fans would show very little overlap, but perhaps I am wrong. B&S themselves seem to have at least a passing interest: “Piazza New York Catcher”
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~8-year-old Greg
by ChiTown CardFan on
Jun 18, 2008 2:06 PM EDT
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Oh, you guys are so hip and cool and I'm just old. I have no idea what you are talking about......
and it’s not the first time…....
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 2:23 PM EDT
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I'm not that old
And I have no idea either. Maybe we are spending too much time in fangraphs and baseball reference.
by Merry CRasmus on
Jun 18, 2008 2:34 PM EDT
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pretty simple really
B&S must refer to Belle and Sebastion referenced above, must be some band that I never heard of…
Venn diagrams are the charts you draw with 2 overlapping circles, one for baseball fans and one for B&S fans, the overlap is those that like both, CTCF (ChiTown CardFan) is stating that he doubts there are many that like both even though B&S seem to have some interest in the game.
by StLHugo on
Jun 18, 2008 2:37 PM EDT
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Venn diagrams I know---they are the lifeblood of my 1st and 2nd grade classroom
visits. It’s all of the other cultural references that leave me baffled…..
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 3:08 PM EDT
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Part of me just doesn't get it.
lots of fans (on here, and otherwise) were clamoring for more Villone. Then Phillies happened his last time out and now he’s the worlds worst lefty. Or, second worse if you throw in Flores. His previous ten games say differently.
The SS who tagged Villone with the home run wasn’t a “Kennedy”. He screamed through AAA and has been very solid since going up to the Royals. That wasn’t a chump and needs to deserve some of the credit.
That was Villone’s second HR all season. It’s not like he’s playing softball up there. He’s also on some serious pace of innings compared to recent history.
Flores is “ok” as long as he comes into the game with a clean slate, so if looked as a LOOGY his value deminishes quite a bit.
Frankly, Tony screwed the pooch last night and tried to skate past the righty.
It was the 8th inning, which should trump Villone and bring in K-Mac or Perez. It didn’t, we paid for it.
That being said, when you lose a game 2-1, complaining about the pitching seems a little backhanded if you ask me.
All that being said, I’m all for looking to grab another lefty if we can find one at a reasonable cost (or) look for a hidden gem to be included into a package with something else we’re trading. The better rationale is that while we have trade chips in play, we also lose both of the lefties (for better or worse) at the end of the season.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 10:53 AM EDT
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MM is "low" cost option
at least he’s already under contract.
I agree with most of what you said AE. Also I didn’t appreciate the criticism of Iz2 for his 9th inning error. A little perspective: six errors in 245 chances. Plus how many GBs has Iz2 fielded that no one else would have touched.
by gocards62 on
Jun 18, 2008 11:01 AM EDT
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I don’t see MM as a hold a breathe option, but if it transpires to the team, I’m all for him being up.
That being said, I think they’re more likely to have him start if nothing else as an innings eater till the guys get healed up. When we get Waino, Welly back to being sound and maybe even Carp back, then you look at MM and what he’s done and guage from there. Momentum (team DL and his rehab) screams starter.
I could get all fired up and anti Mulder, but I’d rather have a little hope and see where it gets us.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 11:06 AM EDT
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and the error may be a blessing in disguise
When Izzy seemed to lose it was when a runner got on base. The opp BA alone jumps .160+ when a runner is on (regardless of base) then when the bases are clean.
Having two on is a nice little pressure cooker for him to be in the middle of. He’s held the leadoff batter to under .060 this year, so when they got on base, it started him off out of comfort.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 11:15 AM EDT
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I keep noticing
that in the situations that I would be going to K-Mac and Perez (not saying I’m an expert), Tony seems to go to Flores and it is getting very irritating.
I am all for getting a LOOGY to replace Flores. I think the biggest turning point was against the Phillies and Utley and Howard were due up, and Flores walks BOTH of them. That is what is disappointing. Anyone can go in and walk two guys. If you are the specialist, the AB should at least be a battle. I believe he threw just 2 strikes between the two AB’s. IMO, the LOOGY should be able to throw an offspeed pitch for a strike, and then force the batter to battle and foul off those pitches until the batter either hits the ball softly somewhere or k’s. Is it wrong to say I miss the days of Ray King and Steve Kline? Or dare I say Jeff Fassero? j/k on the last one.
by Jumsy on
Jun 18, 2008 11:29 AM EDT
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Burger King & post-ASB 2005
I hope you were only missing the Ray King from 2004 & the first half of 2005. The round lefthander pretty much left every game he entered “flame-broiled” from July on; between putting runners on and letting inherited runners score, he made Flores look like a shut-down stalwart in the pen.
According to Fangraphs, his first half racked up a WPA of +0.270; second half it plummeted to -2.080, not quite as bad as Izzy this year, but one of the worst performances I’ve seen recently
That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.
by Solanus on
Jun 18, 2008 11:46 AM EDT
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It seems to me Flores' slider...
is still a pretty solid pitch, he’s just scared to get it up into the strike zone and guys won’t chase it low and outside anymore.
by cardzfanbub on
Jun 18, 2008 12:19 PM EDT
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EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!
That’s what I noticed when he pitched against the reds…. The slider had good bite but it was too low and no one would chase it because it was breaking too fast and obviously not a strike, he needs to elevate it a bit….. He is really scared to work up more in the zone.
by ICbirdfan on
Jun 18, 2008 1:16 PM EDT
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I don't have cable...
or dish, so I don’t see many of the Cards games. I was on vacation last week…so I caught a little of each game of the Reds’ series. I don’t recall what night it was, but he didn’t throw anything over knee high. It doesn’t seem to be a control or ability issue, just an unwillingness to throw strikes.
by cardzfanbub on
Jun 18, 2008 2:00 PM EDT
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it isnt any good
if you can’t throw it for strikes. It might look good, but it isn’t.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jun 18, 2008 7:07 PM EDT
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developing problem
is villone’s control. that was a bp location “fastball” and it didn’t take a future all star to smoke it. this after many walks the time before makes me agree with those that say at his age, he is overused and won’t last the season at this rate.
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!
by sportsman on
Jun 18, 2008 9:57 PM EDT
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it was a missed location change up
his innings are quite high, but considering all of the issues the BP this year has had as a whole, it’s understandable.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 19, 2008 6:46 AM EDT
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Ray King is toiling in the Astros minor leagues and Steve Kline has been released by the Phillies minor league team.
They were virtually free talent and we passed on them. Sure there must be a reason…....
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 11:33 AM EDT
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you get your words transposed?
i think you meant… RK & SK were virtually talent-free‘
I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.
by _pistol_ on
Jun 18, 2008 1:45 PM EDT
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OT: Rumors about Tiger Woods
Rumor is that he fractured his leg two weeks before the US Open and will have to have ACL surgery very soon, thus missing the rest of this season.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 18, 2008 11:39 AM EDT
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ESPN and Golf Channel
A report on the Golf Channel, citing unnamed sources, said Woods would have surgery on his ACL. The Golf Channel reported that Woods suffered a small stress fracture in his left leg about two weeks before the U.S. Open.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 18, 2008 11:42 AM EDT
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If that is the case...
His 91 holes at the US Open are one of the gutsiest performances in the history of sport
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jun 18, 2008 12:22 PM EDT
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it was before knowing what we had known already.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 12:23 PM EDT
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how in the hell
do you play 91 holes of the level of competitive golf with a fractured f-in tibia? I can’t think of anything close to that kind of ballsyness in sports.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jun 18, 2008 7:11 PM EDT
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Happens all the time.....
I know an OU linebacker played nearly an entire season with one. And a basketball player played half a season on one last year.
by SoonerfanTU on
Jun 18, 2008 11:28 PM EDT
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Tiger Woods is 1000 times the golfer on one leg
than I am fully healthy. And I played in high school (and could have played D-III if I really wanted to)!
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jun 18, 2008 1:11 PM EDT
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I was off
on that music reference, thought you were going for my favorite Bela Fleck & The Flecktones song. Victor Wooten is just sic.
Just got done reading this story on SI.com by Champ Clark, great read. Seems his father was an autograph hound back in the 1930’s growing up in St. Louis. He lists some funny notes his dad made about some of the signatures, I liked this one.
Mike Gonzalez—A former catcher, he was a Cardinal coach and scout when he invented the phrase, “Good field, no hit.”
Should have know it was one of ours that coined that one. To bad we seem to apply it every year to our middle infield.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on
Jun 18, 2008 11:47 AM EDT
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i'm a fan of stomping grounds myself
but man are they good. saw them at the pageant a few years ago, definitely the best concert i’ve ever been to.
by mattybobo on
Jun 18, 2008 1:39 PM EDT
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Never seen them live
Almost went to a show in St. Louis before I moved, but the plans fell through. A friend of mine who is a musician turned me on to them. He can learn most songs in an afternoon just by listening to them, but not Bela. After hours of frustrating practice I don’t think he’s been able learn one all the way through. Now that I think about it I have Outbound on my laptop, time to jam on some Hoedown.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on
Jun 18, 2008 2:49 PM EDT
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Baron
I applaud you on the correct use of an old word.
by Tackle Box on
Jun 18, 2008 11:52 AM EDT
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Hey Baron, how about a post about
the players the Cubs can least afford to lose?
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 18, 2008 11:54 AM EDT
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Here, I'll help....in order
Marmol, Big Z, Lee, Ramirez, DeRosa, Lieber. I only say DeRosa because he’s the super sub; Lieber because he’s the pitcher super sub…...
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 12:04 PM EDT
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Dempster has to be up in there somewhere
May be playing out of his skin, but a 161 era+ is nothing you can afford to lose.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 12:08 PM EDT
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How can you
leave off Fuku’n Dummy off that list?
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on
Jun 18, 2008 12:11 PM EDT
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DeRosa really is like Aaron Miles with talent
boo cubs, hooray beer
by Raconteur on
Jun 18, 2008 12:19 PM EDT
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Maybe I should add Bobby Howry to the list too...
He’s insurance for both Wood and Marmol…...
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 12:38 PM EDT
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+10
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on
Jun 18, 2008 1:25 PM EDT
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A fun fact.
Some of this will be small sample size, but when I was looking something up on Izzy I thought I would correspond it to a few more of the players on the team.
Wanted to see who truly was able to “bear down” once a runner was on. Or come in and close out an inning a starter is having issues. I put the PA next to the OPS because it’s going to come with a small sample size.
Pitcher Men On OPS/PA Empty Bases OPS/PA Difference Flores .960/42 .431/30 +.529 Izzy 1.151/42 .636/51 +.515 Franklin .950/64 .601/77 +.349 K-Mac .667/75 .617/71 +.060 Villone .772/73 .745/55 +.027 Perez .367/20 .656/31 -.289 Springer .526/49 .826/36 -.300
Ran through it quick, it’s early and I’m about to be in a meeting, so the math “may” be off, but it looks ok on a double glance.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 11:55 AM EDT
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Thanks for showing the sample size
I wish others would also do the same thing and post the sample size instead of just saying “small sample size”. Not all small samples are the same.
On another note, I wish someone would store variance/variability stats instead of just averages and rates. The same average could result from a pitcher consistently being bad every inning or from a few blow ups (e.g. 20 run Phil’s game).
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on
Jun 18, 2008 1:00 PM EDT
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it would take half a novel to qualify even this little stat, to be honest. Is Springer’s numbers very different since he’s been back? Remove Philly from Villone and is there a substantial skew?
How many of these are self inflicted runners, and how many are truly someone else’s leftovers?
On and on, yanno?
Izzy’s and Franklins would be self inflicted because of the nature of the beast. Flores is pretty lights out until a runner is on, but he also comes into a ton of games where a runner is already aboard.
The above stats show this isn’t a good idea.
To answer your other question, that may be one of the things, or it could simply be a “wild entry”, or a concentration factor.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 1:17 PM EDT
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A bit counter-intuitive
Does this mean that Perez and Springer should just pitch from the stretch with bases empty? I think there is a current pitcher who does that, but I forgot who.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on
Jun 18, 2008 1:03 PM EDT
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Izzy does
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jun 18, 2008 1:15 PM EDT
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When's the last time Izzy pitched without runners on?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on
Jun 18, 2008 6:10 PM EDT
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The last time he faced the first batter of an inning.
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
by BigMOman on
Jun 18, 2008 6:10 PM EDT
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I'm pretty sure
that Perez already does. I thought that was a suggestion Duncan made in ST to improve his command.
by TNTinCO on
Jun 18, 2008 1:26 PM EDT
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Hate to burst everyone's Brian Fuentes bubble,
but apparently both the Rockies and Padres say they won’t be sellers at the trade deadline. That doesn’t really mean anything, but Fuentes may very well not be on the market after all. Time to have a backup plan…
by rockin the red on
Jun 18, 2008 12:16 PM EDT
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I don't blame them. The NL West is still completely up for grabs right now
boo cubs, hooray beer
by Raconteur on
Jun 18, 2008 12:20 PM EDT
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Yeah, but the trade deadline isn't until July 31. A lot can happen between now and then.
Also, don’t forget the waiver wire. You know, as in, “I’ll get those damn waivers on X” and make this deal. Playoff rosters are set in September…..there’s always time to add a player. You just have to be a bit more creative, and perhaps a little behind the scenes “if you don’t touch my waived player, I won’t touch yours” .......to make sure you get who you want.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 12:22 PM EDT
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I agree
a lot can happen. We just can’t assume Fuentes will be available, especially in that division. The waiver wire might be a bit tricky with Fuentes, as I could see a lot of teams being interested in him (Yankees, Red Sox, the usuals…).
by rockin the red on
Jun 18, 2008 12:25 PM EDT
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Absolutely. I don't think Fuentes will be a waiver deal. I was meaning lesser talent as
waiver deals, because teams will not pass on players of Fuentes’ caliber.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 12:28 PM EDT
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thata ctually makes sense
Fuentes will likely be a type A free agent, so it makes more sense to keep him than a guy like marte, who probably won’t be.
"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton
by SleepyCA on
Jun 18, 2008 3:23 PM EDT
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My 1st choice is: Marte
2nd Choice: Scott Downs from Toronto
3rd Choice: George Sherrill O’s
boo cubs, hooray beer
by Raconteur on
Jun 18, 2008 12:21 PM EDT
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Marte..
Damaso seems like the logical choice right now. Probably wouldn’t take much more than a B prospect.
by rockin the red on
Jun 18, 2008 12:34 PM EDT
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Are the Cardinal lefties that bad?
Per Baseball-Reference:
Cardinals LHP vs. LHB this year:
74 AB / .203 / .323 / .351 / 14 BB / 19 K / 2 HRA
Is this something we really need?
Boomer.
by glamboomer on
Jun 18, 2008 12:44 PM EDT
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Is it possible?
That I am about to agree with glamboomer after 2 straight days of disagreeing with him?
After looking at that (assuming those numbers are correct), LOOGY isn’t a problem. Instead it’s simply Left handed reliever who can get anyone out, ala Brian Fuentes or a better use of matchups.
by Tackle Box on
Jun 18, 2008 12:50 PM EDT
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Laughing...
out loud at work!
Good one.
Boomer.
by glamboomer on
Jun 18, 2008 5:46 PM EDT
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Counterpoint
While it is useful to have a LHP who can get a LHB out, they tend to face significantly more RHB’s. And while their ISO is only .088, they are still batting .304 off our guys in 102 AB’s. (Compare that with our rightys, who as a whole have basically identical numbers vs both types of hitters.)
That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.
by Solanus on
Jun 18, 2008 12:57 PM EDT
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but,
the job of a lefty specialist is to get out the lefty.
by Tackle Box on
Jun 18, 2008 1:28 PM EDT
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what, they are allowed to let the righties hit?
If they are used in the true LOOGY sense (one out guy), then they just need to get the lefties out . Tony does not use them as true LOOGYs
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jun 18, 2008 7:14 PM EDT
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He went against matchup to skate by the righty, and it failed.
Villone did get the two lefties out, one bad changeup does not make a bad pitcher
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 19, 2008 6:47 AM EDT
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Individuals
Villone vs LHB 53 PA .167 .288 .262 62 sOPS+
Villone vs RHB 75 PA .339 .453 .452 138 sOPS+
Flores vs LHB 41 PA .250 .366 .469 140 sOPS+
Flores vs RHB 48 PA .250 .375 .300 80 sOPS+
(sOPS+ is split ops+ basically what the ops+ would be using league average is for that split)
Villone is a damn good LOOGY it seems…..not so good vs RHB
by StLHugo on
Jun 18, 2008 2:25 PM EDT
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Nice research
Seems the need for a LOOGY may not be as great as I thought – Villone is good at that specific role, just don’t let him pitch to righties!
by birdo rojo on
Jun 18, 2008 2:32 PM EDT
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OTOH...
Flores is tougher against righties? Someone explain this to TLR…cause he’ll never believe it!
by cardzfanbub on
Jun 18, 2008 2:48 PM EDT
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+11
I’ve always thought Flores did better against righties than lefties. Good to see some data to back up that impression. Does that make him the reverse Ludwick?
by ArkansasTravs on
Jun 18, 2008 4:42 PM EDT
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Is he a left-handed ROOGY?
Steriods is...is bad.
by Handsome Jimmy on
Jun 18, 2008 4:44 PM EDT
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Its probably because he's almost forced
to throw that slider either in or much closer to the strikezone.
by Tackle Box on
Jun 18, 2008 4:51 PM EDT
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I gotta say that an upgrade at Lefty in the pen would be nice but if we don't get
an upgrade it won’t kill us in the long run. Villone made a mistake and the batter excuted. We still didn’t score a 2nd run.
We need a 2B or SS that can hit and field well. ( more and more I think Barden)
and of course a healthy Pujols.
"Why does he keep saying that?"
by Red Blazer on
Jun 18, 2008 1:01 PM EDT
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Completely Off-Topic, but Perhaps A Sports First?
I just went on CNN.com and saw the main story: It is that Tiger Woods will miss the rest of the golf season with his knee injury.
How amazing is it that a sports player’s injury is the main story on one of the main global news sources? Has that ever happened to a baseball player or another major sports figure? It just goes to show the unique nature of that man and how the world views him.
by Fred Head on
Jun 18, 2008 1:11 PM EDT
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Woods is the most dominant athlete in the history of sports
the only thing that comes close is Ruth in his early Yankee days. Not saying Woods is the greatest athlete but his level of talent is THAT much more above everyone else in his sport in relation to other sports.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 18, 2008 1:19 PM EDT
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when you can win at will versus competitors from around the world, that in itself says a lot. It really doesn’t matter if it’s NFL, Snooker, Golf or Hockey.
His command and respect for his sport, his character on and off of it, and the pure passion he injects into the game is something any sport would beg for.
My main comparison would be Bill Russell. However, if Bill (or Ruth) had a bad day they could and did rely on their counter parts. While Tiger has to rely on himself and his own mental/physical shape by design of the sport he plays in.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 1:26 PM EDT
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and the open was one of the best things I've seen sporting wise
it felt like a game 7 from day 2, and the playoff was epic
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 18, 2008 1:32 PM EDT
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the history of all sports?
that seems like a stretch, HC. there are many sports out there…
I’d say he’s the Jan-Ove Waldner of golf. ;)
I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.
by _pistol_ on
Jun 18, 2008 1:57 PM EDT
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I used to think Federer was in the same class as Woods
until Rafael Nadal started beating Federer left and right.
boo cubs, hooray beer
by Raconteur on
Jun 18, 2008 2:08 PM EDT
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how often does nadal beat federer on surfaces other than clay?
i honestly don’t know the non-clay breakdown. you’re still right though, it seems hard to call federer as dominant as woods for that reason.
by mattybobo on
Jun 18, 2008 2:15 PM EDT
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I think starting this year....what's up next? Wimbledon? It's starts now.....
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 2:25 PM EDT
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Their epic battle last year at Wimbledon
saw Nadal take Federer to the brink, only losing to Roger when his legs betrayed him.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 18, 2008 2:28 PM EDT
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blah. i should have remembered that.
their rivalry sure kicks ass. say, nadal is a lefty, right…?
by mattybobo on
Jun 18, 2008 2:38 PM EDT
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That is misleading though.....
Most athletes of Tiger’s ability, played something “other than” golf. It’d be like taking someone that has great athletic ability that is playing in the NFL, and instead, giving them a tennis racket when they were 2 years old. They’d be plenty darn good at tennis too.
by SoonerfanTU on
Jun 18, 2008 2:36 PM EDT
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Lineman playing tennis...
I think I might pay to see a 300 LB guy playing tennis
by StLHugo on
Jun 18, 2008 2:41 PM EDT
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that is
if you consider golf a sport
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jun 18, 2008 3:20 PM EDT
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zing!
In what other sport does participating not necessitate the presence of a competitor? Bowling?
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
by BigMOman on
Jun 18, 2008 4:02 PM EDT
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What other sport does the venue
put the participant at such a great disadvantage? Baseball, if playing in Houston.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 18, 2008 4:06 PM EDT
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If anything...
This would be an argument against it being a sport. Every other sport has very strict guidelines as to the specifications/dimensions of the field/equipment. Even baseball with it’s crazy outfields has the same infield/base dimensions, standard baseball, bat weight, etc.
I think these things are one of the things that make golf good (not great, I won’t go that far), but I could see how some would discount it as a sport.
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
by BigMOman on
Jun 18, 2008 4:09 PM EDT
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Did you know that having sex burns more calories than walking 18 holes of golf?
Depending on how you have sex, I guess.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jun 18, 2008 4:11 PM EDT
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That's an effecient way to spend
two minutes.
by liam on
Jun 18, 2008 4:18 PM EDT
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Tops
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jun 18, 2008 4:19 PM EDT
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Just as long as it isn't Pujols' HR against Lidge in Game 5 of the 2005 NLCS
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jun 18, 2008 4:33 PM EDT
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Dammit!!
don’t make me laugh audibly at work!!!
by cardzfanbub on
Jun 18, 2008 4:38 PM EDT
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Mission accomplished
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jun 18, 2008 4:44 PM EDT
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people can play a round of golf in two minutes too?
I mean….dammit
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jun 18, 2008 7:17 PM EDT
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Golf has regulations too
But to take this further, what other sport do you have to stand up for 4 straight hours?
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 18, 2008 4:12 PM EDT
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Tennis
Except you’re running around for 3-4 hours, and tournaments last longer than four days (for the winner, at least)
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
by BigMOman on
Jun 18, 2008 4:32 PM EDT
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Good answer
Now, imagine playing tennis on the side of a mountain.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 18, 2008 4:34 PM EDT
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I think more people would hike mountains...
if they could walk on cart paths to the top and it didn’t require gaining more than a few dozen feet in elevation. But that is an aside.
My primary argument against golf was that you aren’t playing AGAINST a competitor, but instead you are playing against the course. This is why Tiger’s win on the 1st hole of the sudden-death playoff was so anti-climactic. He won when the other guy missed a putt. That’s the equivalent of a football team winning because the other team ran a play backwards and took a knee in the endzone (for a safety) in a tie game. Tiger had nothing to do with the ultimate-deciding play.
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
by BigMOman on
Jun 18, 2008 5:03 PM EDT
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How about his putts on 18 on Sunday AND Monday?
That was ALL to do with Tiger
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jun 18, 2008 5:04 PM EDT
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I didn't say that he didn't play great golf.
or that he didn’t play better than those around him. Tiger is a great competitor. His guts, mental strenght, and physical ability are all astonishing. He made terrific putts when he was up against the wall. I said that ultimately, he won the tournament by watching a play over which he had no control unfold. Now tell me another sport where that is even possible?
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
by BigMOman on
Jun 18, 2008 5:37 PM EDT
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Jim Edmonds won the World Series watching Adam Wainwright strike out Brandon Inge
Jimmy had no control over that play
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jun 18, 2008 5:42 PM EDT
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true, but that is not an analogous situation.
someone on the Cardinals was involved in the play. In golf, there are no teams. The illustration doesn’t work. You may want to make a separate counterpoint, because you have been unable to refute that one. Golf is unique among events referred to as “sports” in that you can win or lose a competition on a play over which you have no control.
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
by BigMOman on
Jun 18, 2008 6:09 PM EDT
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How can you say he had no control?
He had to post a better score on the hole than Mediate did. If he does nothing, he never leaves the tee box. He posted par on a U.S. Open hole. That’s far from having “no control”.
by Tackle Box on
Jun 18, 2008 6:13 PM EDT
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But it's not a characteristic shared by any other "organized" sport
Not football, not baseball, not soccer/hockey (except penalty shots), or basketball (except free throws). Both of those exceptions are rare, and are also commonly complained about. Have you ever heard the expression “let the players decide the game”? That’s because people call foul shots late in a basketball game “taking the game out of the players hands”, because all you can do is sit around and see what the other guy (undefended) can do.
Also, I never said that over the length of the course he had no control over how the competition went, only that he had no way to influence the other guys shot. There is no defense. It’s like auto-racing, foot-racing, bowling, rowing, etc. Now may I remind you: I never said Golf is not a sport, only that I could see how people discount it as a sport.
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
by BigMOman on
Jun 18, 2008 6:19 PM EDT
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bowling? i’m not sure where you’re going with this attempted point.
FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG
by astrostl on
Jun 18, 2008 6:13 PM EDT
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bowling
like golf, is one competitor playing against a course (in this case the lane/pins), versus playing against a competitor (a la baseball, basketball, etc.) The competition it seeing which competitor does better against the course.
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
by BigMOman on
Jun 18, 2008 6:20 PM EDT
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it is also considered a sport.
FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG
by astrostl on
Jun 18, 2008 6:24 PM EDT
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by some.
reminder: never said golf wasn’t a sport, I said that some people discount it as a sport. like whoever made the first comment about this silly thread!
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
by BigMOman on
Jun 18, 2008 6:26 PM EDT
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I have a bowling team
that competes against other bowling teams…
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jun 18, 2008 7:10 PM EDT
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I think your definition of sports is too broad for this debate
It needs to be broken down into team sports vs. individual sports. This is the crux of the debate. Roger Federer could win the Wimbledon by Rafael Nadal hitting it into the net twice on championship point. That doesn’t mean he “didn’t do anything” to win the tournament. He had to play excellent tennis to get to that point, just as Tiger had to play excellent golf for 91 holes and any bowler would have to bowl exceptionally for ten frames, even if his opposition threw it into the gutter twice in the tenth frame.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jun 18, 2008 6:18 PM EDT
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unforced errors
I can see that point… kind of. Most points in tennis are still determined by Federer’s shot placement. I assume you meant on his serve (i.e. double-fault). I also NEVER said Tiger “didn’t do anything to win the tournament”. What I said was
ultimately, he won the tournament by watching a play over which he had no control unfold
He did a lot to win the tournament. He just had nothing to do with the ultimate play, which I referred to as “anti-climactic”; I think you can agree with that, it’s why we didn’t get to see a fist-pump.
Maybe instead of “team” versus “individual” sports we could call them “adversarial” versus “individual” or something…
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
by BigMOman on
Jun 18, 2008 6:26 PM EDT
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true
I just think golf is kinda funny, cuz the only person I know who plays it is my grandma in her 90’s
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on
Jun 18, 2008 7:10 PM EDT
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you are playing against the course
and several dozen other competitors. How in the world can you say you aren’t playing against competitors?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jun 18, 2008 7:19 PM EDT
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What should be "considered" a sport
I once heard a great definition for what constitutes a sport:
“A sport is any competition against others that a fat, old guy couldn’t do without breaking a sweat.”
Based upon that, golf is right on the line. If they get to use carts, it’s not a sport…it’s a hobby or pasttime (like darts or pool). If they have to walk 18 holes, I’m thinkin’ the old fat guys would probably be sweatin’ by the back 9, so it qualifies.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
by Mr Clean on
Jun 18, 2008 6:13 PM EDT
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Apparently Tiger tore his ACL last year
between rounds of the British Open. So, he’s been playing this awesome golf on one leg.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 18, 2008 2:16 PM EDT
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Magic Johnson
n/t
That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.
by Solanus on
Jun 18, 2008 3:20 PM EDT
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What the heck is going on??
Joe Strauss:
News Flash, per Dave Duncan appearing on P-D cyber-guy Jeff Gordon’s radio show: Anthony Reyes was examined today by team orthopedic Dr. George Paletta for elbow discomfort. Stay tuned.
by KYCards on
Jun 18, 2008 3:02 PM EDT
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Uh, wow. Something fishy here me thinks.
Mr. Duncan isn’t even talking to Reyes these days. Are we sure Dave didn’t “tell” him he was injured?
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 3:17 PM EDT
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OR.....
Maybe that explains why Reyes stinks on ice.
by SoonerfanTU on
Jun 18, 2008 4:46 PM EDT
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Maybe they want to hold him out until they work out a trade and this is just a stall tactic...
If this is the case I hope whoever they are working with was informed because this is gonna trash his remaining trade value.
"Why does he keep saying that?"
by Red Blazer on
Jun 18, 2008 3:59 PM EDT
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side note...someone pointed out that Freese was pulled from the game today for no apparent reason
Maybe him and Reyes are going to Philly. Doesn’t Philly need and arm and a 3B ???
"Why does he keep saying that?"
by Red Blazer on
Jun 18, 2008 4:00 PM EDT
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No they have Pedro Feliz who is pretty good
by ICbirdfan on
Jun 18, 2008 5:17 PM EDT
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By this response
I’m assuming the above question about Philly needing a pitcher and a 3rd baseman means they need these this year.
Why in hell would a playoff team want to acquire Anthony Reyes and David Freese?
by Tackle Box on
Jun 18, 2008 6:04 PM EDT
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If it's the Phillies, it's more for long term than just this year.
I bet they would even start him in their minors. Honestly. They have been interested in him for quite some time. Anyway, on that team if he could post an ERA around 5.00, that would be good enough for them. He currently has his a little under 5.00 right now, so it’s not an unreasonable gamble IMO.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 6:19 PM EDT
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You guys need to get on the same page
Would they want him for this year or the future? If someone is going to point to the fact they have Pedro Feliz, then you are talking about this year. If you are talking about what Jill said, then it’s obviously the future.
I agree with the acquisition for the future (Jill), I just didn’t understand the respone of “they have Feliz”.
Now I’ve got to get out of this discussion because I’m starting to get dizzy.
by Tackle Box on
Jun 18, 2008 6:26 PM EDT
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I'm kind of always on my own page.
If they got Reyes, they possibly would use him this year; but they are thinking more long term with him…...Freese, I’d guess because he looks like he’s going to be a good player to have around. My guess would be for the future.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 6:33 PM EDT
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This trade ain't happenin'.....
So it really isn’t worth discussing. I think Freese injured himself in the game today, at least, that is what I’m hearing.
by SoonerfanTU on
Jun 18, 2008 6:49 PM EDT
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can everyone please stop
these matter of fact kind of statements. Jeez, how in the world can you know that it ain’t happening. You might have a feeling it isnt going to happen, but unless you are the GM of the Cards or Phillies, you can’t be certain.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jun 18, 2008 7:22 PM EDT
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You should probably just let it go
because any chance of people stopping the “matter of fact kind of statements” AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN.
And you can take that to the bank.
by Tackle Box on
Jun 18, 2008 10:52 PM EDT
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I know
i can still bitch about it.
Pardon me if I actually like stuff to make sense
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jun 19, 2008 7:24 PM EDT
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Another one bites the dust...Reyes has elbow discomfort
From Joe Strauss’s chat…
“The ChatMeister is increasingly convinced the Cards will acquire an arm before they get a bat.
News Flash, per Dave Duncan appearing on P-D cyber-guy Jeff Gordon’s radio show: Anthony Reyes was examined today by team orthopedic Dr. George Paletta for elbow discomfort. Stay tuned.”
by cardsfaninmass on
Jun 18, 2008 3:02 PM EDT
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also
who didn’t see this coming??? I can’t believe has lasted this long with that violent delivery.
by cardsfaninmass on
Jun 18, 2008 3:03 PM EDT
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If this is serious
there goes one of our best trading chips. Jeff Weaver is going to be on the team soon if all of our pitchers keep going down.
by KYCards on
Jun 18, 2008 3:06 PM EDT
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No, but I bet you a nickle
that Mark Mulder is starting on Thursday.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 18, 2008 3:09 PM EDT
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You got it
Of course, the winner has to pay the shipping to get the nickel to wherever
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Jun 18, 2008 3:10 PM EDT
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I did not agree to shipping
but I will make sure it is shiny.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 18, 2008 3:15 PM EDT
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I think that is very dangerous
if he comes up and gets rocked, we might be back to square one with his new found ‘confidence’....
by cardsfaninmass on
Jun 18, 2008 3:45 PM EDT
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He's being paid to pitch
actually, he’s being paid to play golf. But, it’d be nice to see him earn that check on the field.


