Reyes clears the air about D. Duncan
Interesting article in the Commercial Appeal today about Anthony's feelings in regards to the way the Cardinals have handled him.
Prior to his demotion from St. Louis to Memphis on May 4, Reyes said he hadn't spoken to Duncan in about a month. There were reports out of St. Louis about a rift between the two.
"If there is, I have no idea," Reyes said. "I haven't said a word to him. I don't know why people keep bringing that up.
Apparently the two nary a speak. Anthony goes on in the article to 'play dumb' about why Dave would dislike him or not 'embrace' him while he has been a pitcher in St. Louis. Don't take that as him lying, just that he acts as if he doesn't understand.
Brad Thompson is also quoted in the article as not having noticed any bad blood between the two while he was up with the club. He's very supportive of Anthony's talents.
I'm sorry if this rehashes the Reyes v Duncan argument but this is a situation that shouldn't exist. Dave Duncan shouldn't be like the wise old man in the cave that only speaks to you when he feels it absolutely necessary. If Anthony hadn't spoken to Dave for a month before his demotion, then Dave wasn't doing his job.
Someone in the front office needs to address this. Is this really status quo? Dave doesn't talk to the pitchers on the roster unless absolutely necessary? Shouldn't he be evaluating each pitcher's performance and offerings thoughts, tips, suggestions?
With this story, it seems that the Anthony Reyes situation is unamendable.
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How does a pitcher and a pitching coach
go a month without speaking? Hell, how do they go even one DAY without speaking? They may not have a problem per se but their relationship definitely sounds unhealthy.
Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!
I don't care about your fantasy team.
by stltrav09 on Jun 17, 2008 5:29 PM EDT 0 recs
Isn't it obvious?
Reyes was pitching so well that Duncan, whose job it is to deal with the pitchers who need his assistance, didn’t feel he needed to waste his time with Reyes. Duh.
Sarcasm aside, kudos to Reyes for continuing to handle this thing diplomatically.
by mojowo11 on Jun 17, 2008 5:42 PM EDT 0 recs
Beat me to the post Hardcore
I was working on a contrast between the other Dave Duncan newspaper article, this one in the USA Today, that is all smiles-well almost all smiles-and praise. You’d think the articles were about two different pitching coaches, as exemplified by the lede:
To St. Louis pitching coach Dave Duncan, there are no lost causes. Just pitchers who have lost their way.
I found this quote to be particularly ironic.
“There are lots of guys around with ability who haven’t made the most of it yet,” Duncan says. “You have to find out what works for each guy.”
I will let each and every one of the VEB community take from that what you will. Although, ”...what works for each guy…” makes one wonder why Reyes is so effective in Memphis and is not spoken to in St. Louis by his pitching coach.
I also found the nicknames that the writer bestowed on each of our five starters: The Ace, The Castoff, The Newcomer, The Makeover, and The Project.
The photo of Dunc also screams “soft-hitting journalism,” as it depicts the closest Dave Duncan ever comes to smiling.
by bgh on Jun 17, 2008 5:47 PM EDT 0 recs
Mozeliak needs to set Dave Duncan straight on how to motivate
Anthony Reyes was also quoted in the article to have said this:
“It’s tough because I never really gave him a reason not to (like me),’’ Reyes said. “I’ve always been a quiet guy, just sit at my locker. I don’t say much. I don’t know how this came about.”
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/jun/17/
Whatever Reyes may have done that frustrated or annoyed Dave Duncan, it is well past time for him to establish a civil rapport with him and give him direct coaching to foster Reyes’ best possible success, even if the Cardinals plan to trade Reyes before the end of July. For Duncan to shun Reyes over an entire month is absolutely unjustifiable and counterproductive to the interests of the franchise.
by CardsWin on Jun 17, 2008 5:49 PM EDT 0 recs
maybe he needs to bend his cap
but then again, he’d lose respect with me if he did that: Duncan or Me? Reyes—make your choice.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on
Jun 17, 2008 5:53 PM EDT
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Well, I hate that issues keep coming up with him.
This young man needs to be traded to another organization. Pronto. They cannot keep up the charade that he is actually worth something and has a chance to be on this team when his pitching coach goes without speaking to him for a month.
Mr. Duncan is not doing his job. You cannot ignore a player, even if you don’t think he’s worth your time. As long as he is part of the organization, he should be worked with the same way every other pitcher is. Period.
Mr. Mozeliak used him for his roster war, and now look where he is. Shame on Mr. Mozeliak too. Does he know this is going on? Does he care? LaRussa? The other players and pitchers? Are there others who are openly ignored?
I have been screaming about this forever, and taken an awful lot of flak for it. But I told you all there was more there with Reyes and it appears I was right.
Just don’t cry about his trade value-because the organization has done even more to destroy it than Reyes did….....
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2008 5:54 PM EDT 0 recs
Mr. Duncan isn't doing his job?
Our pitching staff’s collective performances this year begs to differ.
Duncan has earned the benefit of the doubt, in my opinion. Reyes hasn’t.
The only thing that will happen now is the backlash of him speaking to the media about it, which I assure you, TLR will not look highly upon.
boo cubs, hooray beer
by Raconteur on
Jun 17, 2008 6:09 PM EDT
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Not speaking or working with a member of the staff? Sorry. He's not doing his WHOLE
job. Yes, I know. Reyes said almost nothing there; and he’ll probably be sent out before game time.
Sorry. There is no justifiication to not speak to a member of the staff. None at all.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 17, 2008 6:20 PM EDT
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It's laughable
If you think you can get the whole story from that article.
boo cubs, hooray beer
by Raconteur on
Jun 17, 2008 7:38 PM EDT
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I don't think jill is assuming the whole story is encapsulated in that story....
The Anthony Reyes drama has been going on since 2006.
Let’s remember things the way they actually are: In both 2005 and 2006, Anthony Reyes was the team’s top prospect. In 2005, he came up briefly and was very good, posting a 2.7 ERA (although it was in only 13 innings).
In 2006, he got 17 starts, and posted a 5.06 ERA and was yanked back and forth
Now, a 5.06 ERA is bad, obviously, but if the team was willing to let Jason Marquis of the 6.02 ERA go all season long, why not let the kid try to work through some of his problems?
Furthermore, the same stuff happened in 2007. This whole time, Dave Duncan talks about how there are no lost causes, but if he isn’t communicating with a pitcher who at one point was the organization’s top prospect, and who still is only 26 years old, with a BUNCH of talent, as evidenced by his Triple-A numbers, then what exactly IS his job? I appreciate Todd Wellemeyer’s success, but if Duncan turns a journeyman with a bunch of service time and free agency coming up into a stud pitcher at the expense of working with a guy who is considered more talented, has come up in our system, and potentially could be with our club not just for this year but for 3-4 more years (or more), then that seems like a bad option to me.
Overall, you’re right, this article can’t possibly be the whole story, but we’ve been seeing parts of this story for parts of 3 different seasons now with Duncan and Reyes, and it’s not hard to see that when a guy is putting up excellent numbers and throwing 93 mph in Memphis and then he comes to St. Louis and puts up 5+ and 6+ ERAs and throws 88-89 mph, then there’s something wrong. Maybe it’s instruction that Duncan is giving Reyes, maybe it’s LACK of instruction Duncan is giving Reyes, maybe it’s a psychological thing that Reyes is going through, but whichever it is, as a coach, it’s Dave Duncan’s job to try to fix that, and there’s one thing I won’t argue with jill on, and that is that Anthony Reyes’ value both to the Cardinals as a pitcher and as a trade chip have been destroyed by the way Dave Duncan and Tony La Russa have handled him.
by mtalken on
Jun 19, 2008 11:58 AM EDT
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Of course it's not the whole story.
It’s just another part of an ongoing story.
Except now you can add Mr. Mozeliak to the list that have destroyed his value as a trade chip or a pitcher in this organization. Reyes hasn’t pitched well enough to get you a top flight player in a trade, but he could have got you SOMETHING. He’s been turned into a DFA candidate. And that happened under Mo’s watch.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 19, 2008 12:18 PM EDT
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Exagerate much?
DFA candidate? Seriously?
Fact is, we know NOTHING about Reyes’ attitude through all this. Maybe he is the one blowing Duncan’s suggestions off, and not even trying to conform. Maybe HE has the bad attitude.
Either way, he’s in the process of being dealt, and I’m willing to bet we get more for him then you think we will.
by SoonerfanTU on
Jun 19, 2008 3:34 PM EDT
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Yes. I think they might as well DFA him.
He definitely is in the sell low category; there is no way is around that.
There is no interest in seeing if he can turn it around here. Please understand, I don’t know if he can, here or elsewhere, but it’s certain he won’t be given anymore opportunites in St. Louis. It has to end by the end of this year. There are no more options. Under those circumstances, any GM would be a fool and a dupe to give the Cardinals anything of much value.
If he had an attitude or work ethic problem, I don’t think the front office would have thought twice about dealing him it would have been easy to justify, even mandatory. I just don’t think that’s an issue. Now it might be after yesterday unfolded, but I don’t think it was before.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 19, 2008 4:17 PM EDT
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Other GMs are competing
against each other for the rights to a player like Reyes. The DFA is used when the player shows little promise and doesn’t have the cost control aspects of a player like Reyes. I for one feel that DFA is not likely to occur. All it takes is two teams interested in the player to make a deal instead of being forced to release a player.
by ubeddie on
Jun 20, 2008 12:11 AM EDT
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Okay.
But now the other GM’s know his pitching coach doesn’t speak to him. I want to be in the room when Mo tells them this guy is so great we can’t bear to part with him, give me all you got. I want to see the other GM spit his drink across the room laughing….....
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 20, 2008 7:25 AM EDT
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And Mo replies,
as he cleans up the mess.. “No problem, I’ve another team willing to give me x. Think about an offer and get back to me.” This isn’t like Mo just asked for a AAA player for Adam Kennedy. That would probably make Mo spit the drink first.
As it stands, Mo is under no obligation (excluding morally) to trade Reyes and the DFA date is next opening day. Even if it would come down to the decision to DFA him, teams are prioritized as to who can claim him based on winning records. So a winning team like Philly would offer something to keep from “losing” the rights to someone like KC.
Look at it this way, only 285 more days until the DFA date…. Keep the chin up in the meantime.
by ubeddie on
Jun 20, 2008 11:15 AM EDT
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Cement shoes
Any post about Reyes I usually look to what you have to say, and I fully agree with it. Duncan must not have read his entire job description. Yeah, he’s done good things with many of the guys he has, but not speaking for an entire month is inexcusable.
If the Cardinals organization were a real “business”, Duncan would have been spoken to and the issue would have been dealt with by Mo awhile ago. Instead, it seems more like ‘la familia’ with Reyes being a disposable in-law.
I hope Reyes goes to an NL team outside the Central and kicks our ass 3 times a year.
by cd on
Jun 18, 2008 9:28 AM EDT
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Communication is a two way street
and it appears Anthony is not doing his part either. As the article says, he hasn’t approached his coach in over a month.
by ubeddie on
Jun 18, 2008 3:22 PM EDT
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Who's more at fault?
The 26-year-old kid whose job it is to pitch
OR
The 63-year-old man whose job it is to teach the pitchers how to get the most out of their talent?
by mtalken on
Jun 19, 2008 12:00 PM EDT
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I actually think it raised it.
When you confirm suspicions you tend to get some believability. I don’t know (and to be honest I really don’t care) if it’s true in Reyes’ case. They don’t get along, fine with me. I don’t get along with a few guys I work with either. As long as this isn’t Duncan’s approach with everyone, which doesn’t look to be the case considering the fact that most of the staff is doing reasonably well.
However, as long as the cold shoulder appears to be a Duncan issue and not a Reyes one outside of the organization then Reyes could be looked at as a flier.
Now that he’s said his bit, he needs to keep the rest of it within the clubhouse and pitch. If this becomes a mainstay issue it’s not going to be good for the dynamics of the team, or his aspirations while he’s here.
Last thing I’m saying on this player.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 17, 2008 6:55 PM EDT
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i'm sick of this debate
let’s just hope he pitches well enough in this stint that none of this matters. The inning he pitched against the Phillies was a good start.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Jun 17, 2008 6:49 PM EDT 0 recs
ditto
Winning cures all ails…if A rey throws like he can on a consistent basis none of this will matter…he has yet to do that
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on
Jun 17, 2008 8:49 PM EDT
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You know this will leak to the coaches.
Hopefully it’s a good thing.. they can have a meeting and talk man-to-man and figure something out. They don’t have to be best buds… but they need to have a relationship that’s positive for the TEAM.
Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!
I don't care about your fantasy team.
by stltrav09 on Jun 17, 2008 8:38 PM EDT 0 recs
Devil's Advocate
Maybe Duncan doesn’t like the fact that Reyes just sits in his locker and doesn’t talk, as in ask for assistance or advice? Maybe Reyes comes off as a know-it-all? I know I’ve had kids I coached that would screw up or do something wrong and when I would say something to them their first response is “I know.” That, after about 3 times becomes real annoying.
Should Duncan speak to his pitchers everyday? I suppose, but how much contact does he have with most of them? Doesn’t the bullpen coach usually have more day-to-day contact with the pitchers? I think it’s the pitching coach’s job to primarily work with starters and their gameplan. How long was Reyes actually a starter while he was with the Cardinals? Is it possible Duncan devotes a majority of his time to guys like Looper and Wellemeyer and other “projects”?
by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 11:00 PM EDT 0 recs
Reyes was a starter in ST 2006
ST 2007 and in ST 2008, he had a 3.32 ERA in 5 starts.
Reyes only became a bullpener at the end of ST.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 17, 2008 11:12 PM EDT
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I know
but I’m asking about the whole “hadn’t spoken in a month”. Would that align with the time he stopped being a starter?
by Tackle Box on
Jun 17, 2008 11:15 PM EDT
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A few things to attack the advocate
1) The kids may come off as cocky, but you as a coach are supposed to be the older, more mature one, and are supposed to still give instruction. I know this sounds know-it-all like from me, but I’m a high school teacher, I understand kids saying “I know” when you say something to them, but if my kids couldn’t write a coherent paragraph and I gave them advice and they said “I know” and I gave up, I wouldn’t be doing my job. (It is annoying though, I’ll give you that)
2) Reyes has been a starter in St. Louis for the majority of his career. He’s pitched in 53 games with St. Louis, and 38 of those games were games he started. This year is the first time he’s been strictly a reliever, appearing in 10 games and starting none of them. I guess on some level this confirms your point, but then the question is this: Is this lack of communication just in 2008? Or does it go back further?
3) It is possible Duncan devotes more time to Looper and Wellemeyer, and that’s not a good thing. There are two problems I have with this possibility. Again, as a teacher, I understand that it’s much more pleasant to have a class of kids who will listen to everything you say and do what you say. Looper and Wellemeyer, as veterans, might be more apt to listen to Duncan than a kid like Reyes. But then, that doesn’t make him a good coach, only a knowledgable one. Anyone with content knowledge in a field can teach eager, willing students. Being a good coach or teacher means learning to motivate and reach people who aren’t the most eager and willing.
The second part of this point is this, and I made this point in another reply above: Anthony Reyes is still under team control for several years, Looper and Wellemeyer are not. Who would the better investment of time be in? The guys who might help us win 85 games and finish 2nd this year? Or the guy that might be able to become a viable option as AT LEAST a 3 or 4 starter for the next 5 years?
by mtalken on
Jun 19, 2008 12:09 PM EDT
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It's over...
and it’s a shame. Won’t be long before Reyes is traded. At this point, he just needs to be with another organization. Looks like the “relationship” is damaged beyond repair.
Been plenty of talk about what happened. Was Duncan “fixing” someone who didn’t need to be fixed? Did Reyes just not get it? Or is Reyes simply not as good as we hoped? Flashes of brilliance but no consistency. We’ll find out when he’s pitching for another team.
Hopefully, Reyes pitches a gem on Thursday to increase his trade value.
by jdubya on Jun 17, 2008 11:01 PM EDT 0 recs
Haven't talked in a month...
But that really isn’t that long when one player is in Memphis and the coach is in St. Louis. Is it really that big of a deal or is it a quote taken in by the media and spun to seem so much worse than it actually is?
by Jumsy on Jun 18, 2008 12:13 AM EDT 0 recs
You misread it
he hadn’t talked to him in a month BEFORE he was demoted. Meaning, he hadn’t talked to him the entire month of April.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 18, 2008 1:46 AM EDT
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I like the current managment
but doesnt it seem like this is an ongoing problem?
If you are in St. Louis check out my band, Griffin and the Gargoyles
(formerly Gargoyle Reign, Gargoyle Lounge)
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
:-D
by jealousblues on Jun 18, 2008 12:44 AM EDT 0 recs
Well, he's been the most "available" untraded player this side of Brian Roberts for quite some time.....
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 18, 2008 9:34 AM EDT
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I actually read the article.......
That was one of the worst articles I have ever read….... It said nothing, had zero substance as well.
by ICbirdfan on
Jun 18, 2008 11:07 AM EDT
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Duncan gets pissed...
Unless you follow him blindly. He has gotten a huge ego over the years that he knows everything. I will give so much props but he is not the end all of pitching. Reyes didnt follow his every word and that pisses off Duncan who thinks he the sheperd leading lambs to the slaughter. Reyes struggles continue cuz he gets no support or help or “tweaking” like the other pitchers do. I love Reyes, i think he uber talented but it is going to happen outside of stl im afraid to say. Someday we are going to face him, he is going to shut us down and he is going have the last laugh. Duncans ego is toom huge.
I am the only/last Anthony Reyes fan!
by dangpenguins on Jun 18, 2008 11:39 AM EDT 0 recs
I don't know about that........
I hope Reyes can be traded for something of benefit to STL…. He has talent like a lot of guys in professional baseball but for some odd reason it has never consistently clicked…..... More powere to him if he moves on and figures it out, but at this point I view him as a guy who just did not have the mental confidence to reach that next level….... Maybe he does not have the mental confidence because he feels DD is not in his corner, hell I don’t know but he has been given a lot of chances and never put it together. There are lots of pitchers in the Cardinal organization who would like to get/have had the opportunity to start 37 MLB games and pitch in 53 MLB games…...
by ICbirdfan on
Jun 18, 2008 1:24 PM EDT
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links?
substance is good.
when you can validate those claims, I’d like to see
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 19, 2008 6:42 AM EDT
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wow
all this fuss over a guy who, to this point, has a 5.38 ERA in the major leagues. i want to see him succeed as much as the next guy, but at some point we need to quit making excuses.
i blame reyes as much as i blame duncan. they’re both stubborn guys, and sometimes relationships like that just don’t work. and because you can’t expect them to change, it’s really nobody’s fault. they should’ve traded him long ago…
go cards, o's, and phillies.
...boiler up.
by moboiler on Jun 18, 2008 4:17 PM EDT 0 recs
The problem is
you will find plenty of people who insist his poor performance is not his fault. Personally, I just don’t understand the coddling some feel this guy deserves.
by Tackle Box on
Jun 18, 2008 5:48 PM EDT
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question...
... if Duncan and A-Rey aren’t speaking, then who is telling Anthony to throw the 2-seamer?
follow-up: if Anthony pitched the whole month of April his own way and without correction by Duncan, then why wasn’t he any good?
by kindred on Jun 18, 2008 7:33 PM EDT 0 recs
He wasn't bad
as a guy that was just moved into the bullpen. He had a high ERA because of his limited innings, but his 10:3 K:BB ratio was very solid.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 19, 2008 12:53 AM EDT
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well, whatever...
... it’s not like he was used every day. they used him sparingly on purpose. 10K/3BB is good, but 8 ER in 14 IP is not. in fact, that’s pretty bad. i’m not going to judge him on those 14 IP alone, but i think it’s a stretch to say that he “wasn’t bad” during those innings.
anyways, i was being sarcastic.
by kindred on
Jun 19, 2008 2:01 AM EDT
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Of course, this thing was worsened just a tad
by Anthony telling Goold/Hayes that he is fine and could pitch tomorrow and Dave Duncan saying the Cardinals were going to put him on the DL and look at other alternatives.
How can so much drama surround one player?
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 19, 2008 2:44 AM EDT 0 recs
The DL stint seems like punishment for speaking out of turn
I’m so ready for this drama to just be over.
by azruavatar on
Jun 19, 2008 8:14 AM EDT
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I agree with you.
Except now It’s on Mr. Mozeliak. It never should have come to this. Reyes was probably realistically worth a player just like himself-good AAA player that hadn’t transitioned into the ML. (Jeremy Sowers would have been a fair trade, IMO) A change of scenery guy-sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t, but there’s any number of teams willing to take a flier on another teams’ failed player. The Cardinals do it all the time. That’s the kind of trade he should have looked for. And he should have done it out of spring training. Now Reyes is a DFA candiate. .....I really have serious questions about Mozeliak’s handling of this….....
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 19, 2008 11:01 AM EDT
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reyes for willis straight-up?
fresh starts all round
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!
by sportsman on
Jun 19, 2008 11:50 AM EDT
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No. That's not the type of player I have in mind at all.
He brings a very large contract along with his problems.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 19, 2008 12:10 PM EDT
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i heard him on the radio last night.
he told them that his elbow was bothering him, but that he still felt he could pitch.
their position is that they’re not going to take any chances with a pitcher’s health.
FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG
by astrostl on
Jun 19, 2008 10:53 AM EDT
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I'm calling BS
they have pitchers pitch through discomfort all the time.
by azruavatar on
Jun 19, 2008 12:21 PM EDT
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Who?
Pineiro? Nope. Welly? Nope. Wainright? Nope. Who exactly?
by SoonerfanTU on
Jun 19, 2008 3:36 PM EDT
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Unless your head is in the sand,
this goes on all the time. Wellemeyer almost certainly pitched through “discomfort”. Carpenter has thrown when it was uncomfortable. Mulder couldn’t even get his arm above his shoulder when he was throwing.
In the minors, Jaime Garcia was pitching with pain last season (although I’m not certain that he informed the staff in a timely matter). Adam Ottavino was told to pitch through shoulder discomfort to start this season.
This isn’t uncommon. I’m not saying that the Cardinals are wrong for asking their pitchers to do this at times but to think that everyone feels dandy all the time when they pitch is naive. Reyes said he had some discomfort but was capable of pitching—this seems pretty obvious that he was shut down for reasons other than his elbow. That was merely a convenient excuse.
by azruavatar on
Jun 19, 2008 4:13 PM EDT
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And they've also shut down NUMEROUS guys having the same problem.
Correct?
by SoonerfanTU on
Jun 19, 2008 4:32 PM EDT
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Are you seriously arguing this?
Reyes said his elbow was good enough to pitch. TLR was miffed that he spoke out of turn about starting today (this was all over the airwaves yesterday). Suddenly Anthony isn’t starting. 1+2=3
If you really can’t see the possible connection here (and I never stated it was fact) then you’re simply a TLR/DD apologist and nothing I say is going to change that.
Also, I answered your question with specific names and the best you can come up with is “They shut guys down too.” C’mon, that’s a pretty weak counterpoint. I’ve cited specific instances that prove your initial claim was false.
by azruavatar on
Jun 19, 2008 5:39 PM EDT
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“Unless your head is in the sand” “certainly” “naive” “obvious” “merely” “Are you seriously arguing this?” “1+2=3” “If you really can’t see the possible connection here…then you’re simply a TLR/DD apologist” “the best you can come up with” “that’s a pretty weak counterpoint”
i don’t see what soonerfan did to invite this lashing.
FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG
by astrostl on
Jun 19, 2008 6:07 PM EDT
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There's no real debate here.
It’s incredibly frustrating when someone comes and says, “You’re wrong.” offering little, if any, real counterpoint. He fails to address any point of substance and merely retorts with a ‘how’ statement.
And if you take offense to words like “certainly” or “obvious” or “merely”, then you must consider a lot of things a “lashing”.
by azruavatar on
Jun 19, 2008 8:26 PM EDT
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extremely frustrating
is it too much to ask for people to try to back up their claims? I would say 90% of the people on here make that effort. It seems the other 10 just like to be a pain.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jun 19, 2008 8:43 PM EDT
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i doubt many productive conversations have blossomed from a response like “unless your head is in the sand”. words like “certainly”, “obvious”, “clearly”, etc are usually insulting assertions that do not serve to reinforce points – if it’s that clear or obvious, it should naturally show. i can understand responding in kind to a firefight, i just think you took a not-so-pointed question personally and proeeded to escalate.
FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG
by astrostl on
Jun 19, 2008 9:59 PM EDT
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Exactly.
Plus, I named what, 4-5 guys that have been shut down this season alone due to some kind of arm discomfort?
by SoonerfanTU on
Jun 19, 2008 11:38 PM EDT
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To continue this
Wellemeyer pitched without being able to bend his elbow this year, Adam Wainwright pitched last year with elbow tendinitis, Izzy pitched with clear health problems, LaRussa continuely asks his starters to give ‘alittle extra’ with a full bullpen almost on a nightly basis.
Reyes equated his elbow discomfort to that which you feel when building up arm strength during Spring Training.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 20, 2008 1:42 AM EDT
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well it wasn't intended that way
I’m sorry if you perceived it as me trying to start a firefight.
I still think there is a very obvious (to me) distinction between Reyes being shutdown and times when players are actually hurt. Especially given that Reyes said he was well enough to pitch.
by azruavatar on
Jun 20, 2008 9:03 AM EDT
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roger dodger – see you around the site.
FIP > ERA, OBP > AVG
by astrostl on
Jun 20, 2008 8:50 PM EDT
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haha
you know, thats exactly what came to mind when i heard al and ‘the cat’ talking about it on FSN last night.
Of course thats probably a ridiculous thought, but it sure seemed like a timely ‘injury’.
If Reyes says he is fine, how much bad could really come from letting him start a game that we’re likely to lose anyway at this point? He implodes, then most people (including myself) shut up and he goes back to Memphis. He kicks ass, he gets put back in the pen anyway.
The way the Cards are playing right now, NO pitcher will get a win without a CG shutout.
by cd on Jun 19, 2008 9:15 AM EDT 0 recs
What's funny in my mind about all this
Is that once Reyes is traded, he’s exactly the type of player Duncan usually fixes, i.e. guy with potential who needs a fresh start and approach.
I’m sure his elbow is as fine as any other member of the staff right now.
Matt Morris is Rick Vaughn from Major League 2.
by felone on Jun 19, 2008 1:25 PM EDT 0 recs
Kip Wells............
He fit the description as well but you can’t fix a guy who can’t be fixed!!!
by ICbirdfan on
Jun 19, 2008 1:27 PM EDT
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Kip Wells
has been in the majors for 10 years without any real success. When Anthony Reyes has pitched 1200 innings maybe he should be compared to Wells.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 19, 2008 8:49 PM EDT 0 recs
and that was supposed to be a reply...
to IC.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jun 19, 2008 8:55 PM EDT
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And since everyone is so eager to point out Mr. Duncan's success, let us not
forget a 4 million dollar mistake that was.
And since everyone likes to point out Reyes’ god awful record, there is one big golden nugget in there: despite his troubles getting it right, he still has managed to maintain a 2:1 K/W ratio at the ML level. No reason at some point in his career that he can’t reach the level of useful ML pitcher, maybe better than that. Heck, who needs that-just go buy the next Kip Wells see if we get lucky…...
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 19, 2008 9:17 PM EDT
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kip wells
Kip Wells actually has very good stuff…...... I am not going to be moron like many people and call him an awful pitcher. I thought if you go purely on stuff Kip Wells and Todd Wellemeyer were the Cardinals two best pitchers last year.
He just is very mcuch like a lot of #5 starters who just can’t string anything together.
I was just saying that Wells fit the guy who just needs a new home and Dunc did not turn him around. I don’t know if anyone will turn him around, I think he just needs bit more confidence.
I don’t think Reyes is horse shit, I just don’ t think he has show to be any GREAT pitcher like some seem to belive he is/can be…..Hell Kip Wells

