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faux foes?

last week a reader named jeremy sent me an e-mail which read, in part:

I was looking around at some of Baseball Propsectus' stats and came across Batter Quality of Pitcher Faced. I thought it sounded cool, so I sorted by decreasing OBP to see who'd faced really easy pitching to date. I was shocked when 8 Cards showed up in the top 10. This made me pretty worried that our OBP is a mirage and our offense is going to collapse in the near future. I looked at our schedule, and we've played 9 games against the top 7 NL staffs according to ERA, going 2-1 against the Cubs, Dodgers, and Pads. We haven't faced the Braves, Diamondbacks, Phillies, or Mets yet. This means we've played 87% of our games to date against the bottom half of the pitching in the league.

the cardinals played the phillies over the weekend, which gets them up to 12 games against above-average nl pitching staffs; they also have 3 games against the tampa bay rays, who rank 5th in the american league. so that gives them 15 games against good-pitching teams; they’re 10-5 in those games, for whatever it’s worth. here’s how the hitters have fared:

AB  R  H 2B 3B HR BB | AVG OBP SLG R/G
vs above avg staffs  533   70 143   19  3  18  48 | .268 .329 .417 4.67
vs below avg staffs 1901 264 518 106  9  51 246 | .272 .358 .418 4.71

jeremy’s concern does not appear to be entirely misplaced; the cards’ obp drops almost 30 points against good-pitching teams. but their overall scoring average doesn’t, and their average and slugging average have remained the same. another consideration --- the five pitching staffs in question have yielded an aggregate obp of .320 this year, and the cardinals beat that by 9 points. for that matter, they came out ahead on the other two markers as well, batting 16 points higher than the rest of the league against those 5 staffs and slugging 22 points higher. but then, it has to be noted that the cardinals generally avoided facing the ace of these good pitching staffs --- they didn’t have to hit against zambrano, kazmir, peavy, or hamels. that’s not a knock against the cardinals --- it’s not as if they are dodging good pitchers on purpose. but it might explain why they’ve outperformed the league against these good teams.

sample-size caveats apply heavily here; we can’t really draw any conclusions from a 15-game sample. the available evidence suggests that jeremy might be on to something, at least where obp is concerned; it’s worth keeping an eye on this. it will still be a while, though, before the cards run into a spate of difficult pitching. in their next 5 series (16 games), they only have 1 against a pitching staff that ranks in the upper half of its league --- the 3-game set at fenway. but starting on june 30, they will face good pitching on a daily basis for more than a month. 30 of their next 37 games will be against the mets, cubs, braves, padres, dodgers, and phillies, all of whom rank 8th or better in nl era. they’ll also have 4 games in that stretch vs the brewers, who rank 9th in the league; the only truly bad staff they’ll get to face is pittsburgh’s (last in the league in era). the good news is that pujols probably will be back on the field for most or all of that part of the slate.

jeremy’s inquiry got me wondering: does a similar effect help explain the unexpectedly good showing by the cardinals’ own pitching staff? apparently so: per BP, kyle lohse has faced the 5th weakest slate of opposing batters in the nl this year (aggregate ops of .709); wellemeyer ranks 7th (.709), looper 11th (.715), and wainwright 16th (.719); that’s among pitchers with at least 60 innings pitched to date (there are 60 such in the league). but before we write off the stl staff’s performance as a mirage, i have to point out that 4 cub pitchers (zambrano, dempster, lilly, and marquis) rank among the top 18 in terms of feeble opposition batters; if the stl pitchers are merely lucky, then the cubs’ hurlers are no less so. moreover, nearly all of the top 10 pitchers on the nl leaderboard rank among the top 15 or so in terms of low-ops opposition.

still, the cardinal pitching staff has only faced 3 teams this year with an aggregate OPS+ higher than 100 --- the cubs (111), phillies (110), and rays (103). they also have played 21 games against the astros and pirates, who both have OPS+s of 100 --- ie, dead average. in a total of 30 games against those clubs, the cards are 18-13, a .581 winning percentage; they’re 23-16 against everyone else for a winning percentage of .590. they’ve allowed 5.27 runs a game against the average-or-above lineups (4.76 runs/game if we eliminate the 20-run pasting at the hands of the phils, which skews the average), vs only 3.70 runs/game against below-average lineups.

cutting (belatedly) to the chase, it’s safe to say the cardinals still haven’t hit the difficult part of their schedule. only 18 of their games so far have come against teams that are currently .500 or better; the cards are 10-8 in those games, and 32-21 against losing clubs. they get 6 games vs the royals in the next couple of weeks, but beginning on june 30 they will face good competition nearly every night. 35 of their next 41 games will be against teams that are currently no worse than 1 game under .500 --- that includes 7 games each against the mets and braves, who are both 1 game under at the moment but can hardly be described as easy competition. it’s obvious carpenter won’t be back for any of that stretch, and unclear how much wellemeyer and / or wainwright will be available. . . . . best not to think about that now. they have an easy opponent at home this week, an extremely winnable series; better fatten up, because there may be some leaner times ahead.

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We've done well agianst good teams

Im more worried about the injuries to ace and best player than the strength of schedule right now. Combine those with the Injury to the Colonel and Yadi. Well, I just think that the injuries will have more effect on our record than the strength of schedule.

by Evilfrog on Jun 17, 2008 8:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i seem to remember

discussion on this site after the hot april that our schedule was easy due to a disproportionate number of home games, crappy opponents, etc., and that it would get a fair bit tougher in may. we seem to have made it through that stretch alright.

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on Jun 17, 2008 9:12 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

perhaps you're remembering

this post of two Sundays ago. It’s funny. I wrote about my Dad in the first couple of paragraphs and he just called this morning and told me he read that post so I went back and read it just before reading this. LB’s post today re: our pitchers and hitters does verify the conclusion I reached—that both us and the Cubs have faced relatively easy schedules so far and that it’s going to get tougher. It’s difficult to keep up w/ LB’s good work so I’m always happy when he verifies some of the stuff I’ve posted before.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

in the end I don't care how it is done

I am happy with the theme behind LB’s post yesterday. Just keep faking it for 91 more games fellas (plus like the playoffs and stuff)

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Isn't this an NL Central effect?

plus our lack of Cub games. The other divisions have 3 teams listed as top pitching staffs; only the Cubs were listed from NL Central. That’s why they haven’t faced top teams too, although I would think Houston is up there for offense ratings.

Of course then we get into this whole balanced schedule mess and team ratings, is the NL Central really bad pitching or does it have some really good offense (Cubs, Brewers, Stros)?

Whatever the case, since we’re mostly going to face NL Central foes I’m not too worried about it. Maybe our pitching and hitting numbers are a little biased downwards, but we still have shown we can compete with good teams.

by enoscountry on Jun 17, 2008 9:16 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't doing good mean your competition is doing bad?

Doesn’t a good pitcher lower the OPS of those he faces? And winning against another team lowers there winning percentage? Sometimes I think we worry too much about how good our opponents were or are going to be yet we seem to be holding our own against every one this year, no true blowout series and only a few blowout games.

by StLHugo on Jun 17, 2008 9:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

agreeed, it gets circular . . .

so it is hard to say whether a team is bad offensively b/c they are facing good pitching or because they are actually bad offensively

who will be the new MV3?

by sprfldcard on Jun 17, 2008 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It reminds me of Tommy Lasorda's

old joke about why his pitching career was so poor in comparison to a guy like Drysdale’s: “It wasn’t fair. Drysdale always got to pitch on the days the other teams weren’t hittin’.”

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 17, 2008 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds like McCarver's quote:

“Bob Gibson is the luckiest pitcher I ever saw. He always pitches when the other team doesn’t score any runs.”

by Ray Lankford on Jun 17, 2008 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

dammit

didn’t mean to post a one worder. Don’t know how that happened…

Anyway, my actual remark was going to be that it most definitely is circular especially in regards to the pitching. When the cutoff is 60 innings, that means that’s roughly only 10 games. In one game, a pitcher could get as much as about 13% of those innings. So basically, if someone were to throw a no-hitter and have 7-8 other pretty mediocre starts, they’re probably going to show up pretty favorably in the stats.

For the hitters, since they play everyday, there’s a better sample size, so I would be concerned that our hitters haven’t faced the toughest pitching yet.

But the pitchers… I wouldn’t be concerned in the least.

by mtalken on Jun 17, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i knew somebody would make this argument

it may seem circular, but it isn’t. there just aren’t enough plate appearances between any single pitcher and any single hitter to skew the results.

think of it like this: lohse has faced kaz matsui 8 times this year (the most he has faced any opposing hitter) and held him to a .250 ops. matsui has had 221 plate appearances against other pitchers this year, with an ops of about .695 . . . . you can’t argue that matsui looks like a bad hitter because kyle lohse keeps getting him out. matsui is a bad hitter because every pitcher gets him out . . . .

kyle lohse has faced 361 batters this year. those 361 batters have taken, cumulatively, upwards of 10,000 plate appearances in 2008. his appearances against them are just a tiny fraction of their overall sample - not nearly enough to skew the sample up or down one way or the other.

by lboros on Jun 17, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is what i was thinking

The reason the Cards are beating ‘bad’ teams so often is because beating a team often is what makes it ‘bad’. I’d like to think of it more along the lines of proving their quality as a team rather than taking easy wins from crap teams.

But yeah, like you said \/ \/ \/ down there, it gets circular i think.

by cd on Jun 17, 2008 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes, but

the other teams have played 70 games but only a few are against us. While our good pitchers may be able to lower their OPS some, the other 60+ games will weigh much more heavily than the few they’ve played against us.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

the padres and dodgers aren’t bad teams because we went 2-1 against them; they’re bad teams because they are both 8 under .500 against the rest of the league (excluding us). the nationals are 1-5 against us, and 28-37 against the rest of the league.

by lboros on Jun 17, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

while that is true

the bad teams have to play someone, if the padres had played the Ms more often would they be as bad as they are? I think these stats are very relative and often change after the fact. If we play a .500 team one day and beat them then the next day they are counted as a sub .500 team. Most of the time someone looks at stats like “how many good teams have you beat” they look at a snapshot in time, who are the good teams today, now how many times did you beat them? They don’t take into account that the team may have been a “bad” team at the time or a bad team may have been a good team. When we last faced the Stros they were above .500 I think and now they are below. Were they good then? Are they really bad now? I just don’t put very much stock into those type of stats.

by StLHugo on Jun 17, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Padres are 13-7 in their last 20 games

Climbing, ever so steadily…

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 17, 2008 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so if they hit .500

will that make our wins against them more important?

I know where you are coming from though they aren’t completely out of it yet since the DBacks are starting to slip some. It is weird that the Top 2 NL teams are in the Central and the NL West leader is only 4 games over .500.

by StLHugo on Jun 17, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why do we keep looking for reasons to fail?

This team is pretty good. That’s the crux of it. They are just pretty good. They aren’t great, ala 2004. They aren’t horrible, ala THE ENTIRE 90’S. They really have no glaring weaknesses (weak-hitting middle infield excepted). They pitch fairly well. They hit for a bit of power. They walk some. They are fantastic in the field. And, to top it all off, they are fairly young and really deep.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 17, 2008 9:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

I understand that there are weak areas and possible rough patches ahead, but I sometimes think it’s too easy to over analyze and lose the positives we have going. I don’t want to put blinders on, but at the same time, why look for trouble?

mel

by mel1975 on Jun 17, 2008 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it would be an incredibly boring site

if all we wrote, day after day, was some variation on “Gee, aren’t the Cardinals great?”

it certainly wouldn’t be worth my trouble to do that. what interests me is to weigh the team’s strengths and weaknesses and try to understand them.

by lboros on Jun 17, 2008 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed but...

I too think we over analyze just a bit. While I know it isn’t the case it almost seems like some are just waiting for the team to fail as predicted. Nobody thought we would be where we are right now and no one knows if it is sustainable. I like the analysis but all the analysis in the world wouldn’t have predicted where the Cards currently set. This might actually be a pretty good team. Yes, they are definitely overachieving and it’s probably not sustainable at this level but barring a major disaster (Albert being gone, God forbid) this team is probably going to be making some noise in September. It’s going to be a fun summer and the TLR/Dunc connection right now are pulling the right strings. I’m enjoying watching this team gut out every series.

by okiecardfan on Jun 17, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The whole point of this site

is to overanalyze. If you don’t want to ruminate on subjects that are not readily apparent to the average fan then I think it is a waste of time to come and read the content here. Furthermore, while I consider myself on the positive side as a fan, I am still interested in understanding the team’s deficiencies so that I might better understand when the team fails.

by indakind on Jun 17, 2008 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don't know

if i completely agree with that. Analyze, yes, but OVER? I dunno. Sometimes it has the feel of LOOKING for failure. I definitely am not a proponent of of “gee, aren’t the Cardinals great” everyday, but at the same time, I’m not sure I understand the need to look for failure to come.

mel

by mel1975 on Jun 17, 2008 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"If you don’t want to ruminate on subjects that are not readily apparent to the average fan then I think it is a waste of time to come and read the content here."

people come here for their own reasons, and the average fan can understand more than you give them credit for. And, overanalyze = “ignoring truths in favor of analysis” it’s inherently a bad thing.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 17, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

People with a strong statistical/analytical bent

will constantly compare the team’s actual standing to where their analysis of the numbers suggests the team should be. For that reason guys like lboros are not likely to fall prey to irrational exuberance (and hopefully will not fall prey to irrational pessimism either). Really, the best statistical analysts in baseball are likely to have the same sober qualities that we would see in good stock analysts. But we have so much emotion tied up in this entertainment that we love, that sometimes levelheadedness looks like pessimism.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 17, 2008 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know, I know.

I know what you are getting at, but when we win, it seems we have to justify, statistically, that we DESERVED to win. I realize that over a season, the law of averages will drag a team more toward their true potential, be it good or bad. I also think that we, as devoted El Birdos, sometimes miss out on the simple joy of winning no matter what the numbers say.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 17, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes. exactly.

I think that this is a part of what I feel as well.

mel

by mel1975 on Jun 17, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

right

i don’t think lboros got into today’s discussion thinking it was going to have a negative feel. it just happened that way. there are other times when he has a post where he thinks its going to be negative and the stats actually look positive.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Jun 17, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well

some of the analysis is worth it, just trying to figure out if we are going to be a legitimate contender in the second half. it will alter how the GM performs the next few months, for sure.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 17, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think

this analysis screams of the age-old adage:

“There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.”

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

btw

not necessarily this analysis will alter how the GM goes about the season (unless he’s actually an avid reader?)

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 17, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

LB, I do agree with you.

I was making more of a comment on the overall tone of the blog this year versus others. It seems that last year, we were a fundamentally flawed team that was VERY top-heavy. We had a couple of superstars and a bunch of underperforming has-beens. Yet, with all the flaws, we as a community were much more optomistic in our tone than it seems to me. I know that is just one man’s view, therefore we need to have a small sample-size warning (I’ve always wanted to use that term, tee-hee), but it seems to me that the prevalent opinion goes something like this: “Yeah, we’re winning, BUT…..” Whereas last year the tone was more of: “Yeah we’re winning DESPITE…..”.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 17, 2008 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i guess it's all in how you read it

i don’t think any of us would disagree that this team’s performance has been surprising. and few among us would deny that the team has some holes. you might think i’m a pessimist because i’m not sure whether or not the team can continue to surprise, and continue to win despite its limitations. other people might think i just have a healthy dose of skepticism about the team.

by lboros on Jun 17, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we can all have a healthy balance

We can realize this team does have flaws, expect that some of those may be eventually exposed, and still hope like heck that they aren’t. People sometimes make the mistake of reading what somebody thinks, and interpreting it as what they want. I’m comfortable that while everyone here may have different thoughts and views on any number of topics involving the team, we all want the same results. If we keep that in mind the discussions of whether people are being too negative or too positive become almost irrelevant.

by Merry CRasmus on Jun 17, 2008 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know why I think they are winning?

I truly believe this team is winning because they have 2 servicable players for EVERY position (except for Pujols). We can almost always put 2 hot bats in the outfield. We have 4 fair middle infielders that all play quality defense. We have a great defensive catching corps. We have loads of good young bullpen arms. There are reinforcements ready to do a decent job, no matter what the situation. Ahhh, depth is a wonderful thing, isn’t it?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 17, 2008 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To reply to my own comment.

This depth allows us to do a much better job of hiding our ineffeciencies than in years past. Tony is able to put players in a position to succeed, rather than let them languish in failure. We are much more able to ride the “hot” bat now, as slumping ones will just sit the bench.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 17, 2008 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey!

1996 was pretty magical, until Game 5 of the NLCS anyways (shudder)

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 17, 2008 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

I thought the teams in the 90’s were pretty entertaining, if not quite as good as the 80’s and aughts for the redbirds. I liked watching some Guerrero, Lankford, and whoever else I’m forgetting right now.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 17, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh yeah

Gilke, etc.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 17, 2008 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, the late 90's were pretty cool.

I was in college in Lebanon, IL at the time, and I got to go to lots of games in the $4 bleacher seats. I even got in a playoff game or 2. I guess I was referring more to the 1990-94 era.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 17, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep, with the exception

of 1997 which was one of the most painful seasons I can remember (even if we did land McGwire that year).

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 17, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One positive

as our schedule gets tougher, the same can be said for the Cubbies.

Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!

I don't care about your fantasy team.

by stltrav09 on Jun 17, 2008 9:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Face/Off

Each of our schedules gets tougher because of all the remaining games against one another. We have only played 3 games to date with many more on the horizon. It’s going to be a very entertaining pennant chase.

by bgh on Jun 17, 2008 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Cubbies...

I’ve put on the back-burner till October. Right now there just another foe, as I think there’s little chance of us beating them for the division. I’m keeping a closer watch on what the top four teams in the NL East and the top two teams in the West are doing, cause these are the teams that will keep us out of the playoffs…don’t want to ignore the Brewcrew either.

by cardzfanbub on Jun 17, 2008 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand where you are coming from

But, it’s difficult to put the Cubbies out of mind. The Cards have played 71 games this season and have 91 remaining, 12, or, 13% of which are vs. the Cubs. That’s a fair share of the remaining schedule, and a share that could very well determine our playoff fate. Luckily, we also have 6, or 6.59%, of our remaining games vs. K.C., beginning tonight in STL. Tickets are still available…

by bgh on Jun 17, 2008 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Takin off work

...on thursday afternoon for a day game. get out of the office!

by cd on Jun 17, 2008 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

KC

aren’t chumps this year regardless of record. Ask Arizona, that had to pitch a gem in order to not be swept.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

KC

is playing Bipolar baseball this season. It seems they have stretches where there are either playing very good baseball or stretches where they are absolutely putrid.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They're a momentum team

Highs are nice, lows are historically scary

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Luckily for me

the royals are just my second favorite team (way back in second). The Cardinals’ September swoon in 2006 almost killed me. How do those true blue royal fans put up with several of those a year?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the tough part of the schedule

will come in October. We should worry about it then:-)

by Harknights on Jun 17, 2008 9:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

May I say something to the Mets GM?

Shame on you for firing Willie Randolph and the coaching staff in the early morning by telephone.
Ugh. I do not think Randolph was a very good manager; I do not think Manaya has done a good enough job to replenish the team of old injury prone players. I do not think the youngsters have given their best. There are legitimate reasons to fire Mr. Randolph.

But fire him by phone? What a cowardly thing to do. Mr. Randolph deserved at least a face to face meeting.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2008 10:02 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Only one GM is documented to be reading VEB

And that’s Mo. Clearly, more should (I’m talking to you Walter), since it has a tremendously positive effect on the results for the Redbirds. ;)

by bgh on Jun 17, 2008 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha! He sure hasn't listened to my rants.

But maybe he’ll pass the word to Minaya…...

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2008 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

With an addendum

I have another move that would jumpstart the Mets: trade their Reyes for our Reyes+ (yes, I’m aware that will never happen).

by bgh on Jun 17, 2008 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

of course if he were to be traded to St Louis

he would no longer be the most exciting player in baseball.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

right!

playing in the national league flyover division wouldn’t be quite as exciting…

by mattybobo on Jun 17, 2008 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Omar will hear...

plenty from the Noo Yawk media over the timing of this move!

If you’re going to fire your manager, why in the world would you make him fly all the way cross-country, win that night’s freakin’ game, and then can him at 3:15 AM Eastern? Talk about “twisting in the wind”!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 17, 2008 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hope he gets raked over the coals......

He should. This is about the worst way to handle this. The worst….....

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2008 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Petersen (SP?) pitching coach and Randolph were fired but they kept Jerry Manuel?

I wonder why they kept Jerry Manuel as the interem coach? guess someone had to coach….
I guess the manager and pitching coach were not doing too well as they got fired.

by ICbirdfan on Jun 17, 2008 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he wasn't that bad with the whitesox

personally I would have cleaned house with the GM gone as well, as I don’t think it’s all Willie – however, any chaos with the Mets gives me a sense of ease.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The only thing I know about their pitching coach is that

Oliver Perez was a trainwreck before he got there, and now he’s at least decent (120 ERA+ last year, 81 so far this year)

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 17, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He has gotten pretty good results

from a group of pitchers that are all quite different. Especially worked well with Oliver Perez (who still has trouble staying “fixed”) and John Maine who really is on his way to being the most complete pitcher on the staff, Pedro becoming more of a finesse pitcher since his injury. Pelfrey’s been rocky….but even he has shown some improvement as the season has gone on. I think Peterson’s a good one. Someone will grab him before the week’s out.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2008 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kazmir

Peterson also suggested trading Kazmir b/c of his mechanics and slight build. He said he could do wonders with Victor Zambrano…...

by njnick on Jun 17, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Everything I've heard said that was blown way out of proportion

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Jun 17, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There were injury concerns with Kazmir

And he has been injured. A couple times in his young career. It still was a stupid trade.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hope Walter has his head in the sand

I fear that Cincinnati will jump on Rick Peterson now that he is out of a job for 2 reasons;
1: I dont like the thought of that staff having a really good pitching coach
2: I don’t like the thought of Dick Pole not being around anymore

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if i recall correctly

dick pole and dusty baker have a long-standing relationship. it might becounter-productive to fire pole, just because you view peterson as an upgrade.

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Jun 17, 2008 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

Pole was with Dusty in Chicago as a “consultant”. It was widely reproted and talked about here how even though the pitching coach was (and still is) Larry Rothschild, Pole was the one Dusty went to for all opinions and advice in regards to the pitching staff. It was even said that Dusty and Rothschild weren’t even on speaking terms most of the time.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dusty is not too bright then....

Mr. Rothschild has done a very good job with that staff. He really has. Especially the relief corps…....and they have their own starter to reliever to starter doing well to in Ryan Dempster. He’s given up one run through 4 tonight.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2008 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed...

He really should have been canned in the offseason in my opinion. This all goes back to the collapse last season. They could have thrown millions at Torre or Girardi in the offseason to come in and man the helm.

This was extremely poor management from Minaya. None of these players have performed up to par, they’re pitching staff is still suffering from the Kazmir trade, that certainly has to go on the list of most one-sided trade ever. I think the best thing they could do is trade Moises Alou’s knee for Ozzie Guillen’s temper—maybe that would get them going….

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There IS a method to Guillen's madness.

He is, as my mother would say, crazy like a fox…...

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2008 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And....

He has a veteran laden team, much like the Mets. He knows that he can call them out in the media and he’ll get results. I think he and Kenny Williams played that chess match perfectly a couple of weeks ago….

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ozzie is so full of it

Look. I live in Chicago so I hear EVERYTHING that guy says. He’s famous for saying he takes the blame on himself and how he doesn’t care what anyone thinks and if they want to they can fire him any day. Then as soon as he says he doesn’t care what people think and says “I’m the fing manager, I make out the fing lineup” he goes and throws the entire team under the bus. He blames the pitching coach, the hitting coach, everyone. He does it again and again, and before to long he’s going to get what he’s asking for.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...

They’re leading the AL Central right now, which nobody predicted, and he has a win now team with solid pitching and good offense.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No one predicted it

because everyone was too busy slobbering over the Tigers and Indians. They all refused to admit that the team made significant improvements over last year’s team.

The White Sox are as streaky as anyone (lost 2 out of 3 at home this weekend to the Rockies) and have taken advantage of what has turned out to be a crappy division.

Ozzie didn’t cause the Tigers and Indians to suck and they’ve been a win now team for 4 years.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The thing is.....

The “improvements” they’ve made haven’t worked. It’s just that the pitching has rebounded to where it was in 2005 when they won it all.

Contreras, Floyd and Danks all had ERA’s in the 5’s last year for the ChiSox and this year Contreras and Floyd are in the 3’s and Danks has a 2.9 ERA.

Meanwhile, the three big pieces they picked up offensively, they’re 1 for 3:

Nick Swisher is batting at a .219/.335/.369 clip
Orlando Cabrera is at .262/.315/.346

Then, of course, the good news:

Carlos Quentin – .269/.374/.525

And as another person living in the Chicago region (at least for one more week, then I’m back down in Cardinal territory, yay!), I agree with Tackle Box. I think Ozzie has SOME method to his madness, but the shouting match with Kenny Williams, from everything the Chicago media had to say, almost got his butt thrown to the curb.

by mtalken on Jun 17, 2008 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

That's just what they like you to think *wink, wink*

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Possible, but I don't believe it....

Although who knows. Ozzie is seemingly out there enough to set up a conspiracy with his GM to fire up the team.

Just doesn’t seem like his style though.

by mtalken on Jun 17, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your right

Swisher and Cabrera haven’t earned their keep by hitting, but by sticking those two guys, plus Quentin, plus a healthy Crede on the field every day is what is really helping the team and it’s pitching. The pitching did well for the first month or so last year. I think they were one of the top pitching staffs early on. But they fell apart and had horrible defense to boot (seriously, Juan Uribe at shortstop and you guys complain about Aaron Miles).

And don’t forget Alexi Ramirez.

Plus, they added Scott Linebrink to a bullpen that was being re-worked last year. They made some pretty big changes.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also...

Remember that they really haven’t played well offensively all season until the last few weeks. Swisher, Dye, and Thome have yet to really get going. They’ve been carried by Crede (who the Cards probably could have had for a mid-level prospect in the offseason, with Josh Fields waiting for a chance) and Quentin, who has to be the offseason pickup of the season so far. If the rest of that lineup starts hitting and Buehrle improves towards the mean they’ll be a tough team.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Mets are full of shit

Willie Randolph is not the cause of Delgado hitting .242. Randolph is not the cause of Pedro Martinez being injury prone.

Yeah, the collapse last year was monumental. But the Mets decided to retain him. Why fire him now simply because they had some injury problems, and that Delgado’s declined faster than anyone expected. It’s not like the Braves are doing much better than the Mets, and the Braves set the standard for quality in the NL East.

Idiocy!

And why not at least wait until the All Star Break. It’s like the team is being run by an adolescent.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Jun 17, 2008 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Braves

Don’t have a monumental second half collapse on their record and a $130 million dollar payroll either.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wasn't really even a second half collapse

they had it locked up with less than a month to go, .500 ball would have done it. If it was Arrogance I can’t say, but clearly when the roster expanded they needed to keep it in gear, they ran in neutral.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that is pusillanimous!

and I tend to agree w/ you re: Randolph but I think that Minaya is MORE responsible for the Mets current problems than Randolph is. They sold their soul to win two years ago and it didn’t work.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

It didn’t :D

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 17, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yadi really does play the game with joy

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 17, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was a beautiful moment

Who would have thought we’d have another like that in that series after Taguchi’s in the top of the ninth in game 2?

by random on Jun 17, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair to Minaya:

While this was perhaps the worst possible way to fire Randolph, from what the sportstalk shows are sayng this morning, Minaya was outvoted by basically everyone else in the Mets front office.

If Minaya hadn’t fired him, he might have lost HIS job, and then of course, the replacement’s first task would be to fire Willie Randolph. It still should have been done in New York, rather than making him fly across the country for one game before getting fired. It also should have been done about 3 weeks ago.

by mtalken on Jun 17, 2008 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think that's it exactly

Upper management is firing GM’s now (as we know from close experience)...Bavasi got the short haircut in Seattle when most people thought the manager was toast…it will be interesting to see what happens now…the Mets have a lot of money in that team…if they don’t turn it around in what should be a fairly winnable division, the Phillies success notwithstanding, Minaya might be next.

by tbell61 on Jun 17, 2008 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bavasi's a moron

and should’ve been gone long ago.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wilpon was just on the radio

and he said that the firing of and timing of said firing for Willie was solely in the hands of Omar Minaya. Omar was ‘in charge’ and had the power to keep or fire Willie.

See what happens Omar when you cut loose the fall guy? You become the next in line to be the fall guy. The owner isn’t going to fire himself.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 17, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Minaya knows that

really, I can’t think of any OTHER reason that Randolph would have lasted so long.

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 17, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On an Unrelated note.

Im going to the game tonight. And again Looper is pitching. Looper is still the only pitcher I’ve seen at the new ballpark. Nothing against you Loop. But damn…

by Evilfrog on Jun 17, 2008 10:29 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

would it be a bad thing if he gave you a gem like the last one? I think he’s pretty solid this year, era really is blown out from two bad games, the rest were winnable. And he’s had a reasonable bat this year. Will KC be able to say the same with their pitcher?

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like Looper

And I would love to see Looper pitch another game like he did last week. But on the same note, I would like to see someone else pitch. Not because I dislike Looper. But because this is my 5th time in a row see him pitch. You know?

by Evilfrog on Jun 17, 2008 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

ok, I see where you’re coming from. I caught Marquis a few times in a row so I know the pain.

Have a buddy with some damn nice seeing eye seats on a season ticket and already have a pact to go with him if Garcia pitches this year. That’s the kid I want to see this year if he’s called up.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you guys really need to quit complaining

you think that is bad? I once caught games in which Kips Wells pitched 2 times in a row. That is like getting 10 games worth of crappy pitching condensed into 2

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh wow...

I think im going to shut up and just buy a Looper Jersey.

by Evilfrog on Jun 17, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've been to three Cardinals games in my lifetime (all in Atlanta)

First

Second

Third

The first one was awesome (the experience and the game). The second two blew nuts. Hopefully I’ll get to a good one this season!

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 17, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so you better not go to anymore

I don’t want to see the Cards give up 20 again. That second game had to be painful , I hope you made it all the way through.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I did make it through all three games

If I only get to see the Cardinals once a season, then damn it I’m getting my money’s worth!

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 17, 2008 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

damn right!

I was hoping during this game though that Pence’s HR bal would hit me in the head so I would have a reason to leave (and forget the game). Unluckily though , it about 5 feet in front of me

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

my first game was

this one

I have a love/hate relationship with the Cardinals' middle relief corps.

by madding on Jun 17, 2008 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It seems like everytime I go see the Cardinals at Wrigley

they’re facing Zambrano. It’s happened like 3 or 4 times the past couple of years

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

every time I go

the Cardinals win!

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 17, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please be sure not

to miss any games then. I bet if that trend continues, we’d all chip in for tickets and Old Styles.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 17, 2008 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

my sister has never seen the Cards lose in person

we figured it up after the last game we went to, she is now 14-0. I tried to talk her into sending in all the old ticket stubs as proof and to ask for season tickets. At the very least they should give her tickets for the playoffs.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

big 0-4 last year

Last year my wife and I went to 4 games and saw 4 loses. One was a rain delayed Kip Wells bashing, one was a Sept Cubs game about 10 days after HGHgate started that Izzy blew after we rallied in the top of the 9th, one was JR Towles taking the Cards for a ride in his debut, and one was Wainwright’s CG lose to the Dodgers. 2 great games but still 4 crappy endings.

by StLHugo on Jun 17, 2008 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was brutal

but then last year seemed like a never ending season from hell.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 17, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was at

Wainwright’s CG loss to the Dodgers too. That was a good game, not the horror fest that some of your games were, but still, a sucky ending. I saw 7 games in person last year (6 at Busch, 1 at Comerica) and went 3-4. My record this year is a perfect 4-0.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 17, 2008 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow, that's very impressive

I’m 3-0 at Wrigley, and something like 3-1 at Busch, 0-1 at Milwaukee

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 17, 2008 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw the cards beat the cubs on the 4th of july a couple of years ago

at Wrigley. I spilled my beer on a cubs fan after hooting and hollering every time the cards had a run (which were more than a few that day if I remember correctly) and he was none too pleased. actually, they left the game after that (I apologized of course, it was an accident). I was lucky the guy wasn’t bigger than me I suppose (or a retarded teenager or frat boy)

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 17, 2008 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

just the opposite for me

I almost always see a Cardinal loss. Whether it be in Chicago or Milwaukee and this dated back like 6 years (some pretty good teams in there). I even went to a Cards/Pads playoff game (my only trip to Busch III), a series the Cards won 3-1 and they lost that game too.

Although I was at the Card/cub game last year that ended up like 12-10 and was won by a Pujols homer off Dempster that I think still hasn’t come down.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was at both of those games! That April 2007 game was lots of fun.

I was so happy to get tickets to see a playoff game in ‘06, but after shelling out for the tickets, the hotel, and flying my sister in from Denver to go with me, it was a little bit of a let-down. Add that to the fact that I had an opportunity to buy WS tickets but I had to travel a LOT for work – 23,000 miles flown in 32 days Oct./Nov. ‘06 – plus my Mom got married the day after the Series concluded, and I couldn’t go. I’m still a little bitter.

"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~8-year-old Greg

by ChiTown CardFan on Jun 17, 2008 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The year we had Brett Tomko....

I went to 3-4 games and every one was pitched by Tomko.

I understand how annoying that is, although matty’s response below about getting Kip Wells twice in a row still sucks more.

by mtalken on Jun 17, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed

I’ll take all of my painful ballpark memories because i never seen wells pitch

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One year, when Josh Towers

was a starter for the Orioles, I went to 5 games at Camden Yards. Towers started All. Five. Games. What a treat!

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 17, 2008 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Going into series vs. K.C. with one healthy catcher "a possibility"

Interesting piece in the P-D, which actually made me feel better about Molina’s injury (and worse, since he suffered a concussion last September, too):

Concussions to Jim Edmonds and David Eckstein led the team to try in spring training 2007 a computerized scan that provided baseline neurological information on the players. Almost the entire roster took the same test this spring to help the team better diagnose the severity of and recovery from concussions like the one Molina received Sunday.

Molina was one of the players to undergo the test.

by bgh on Jun 17, 2008 10:31 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It's his brain, damnit! I still wish they'd DL him to be absolutely certain he's okay.

Glowing reports and all, there is a lot they don’t know about concussions and their after effects…why not err on the side of caution?

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2008 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree wholeheartedly

Especially, given the history Cardinals have with this: Matheny, Edmonds, and Eckstein…

by bgh on Jun 17, 2008 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Concussions should be called

“brain injuries.” Maybe then they’d be treated more seriously by the people. I think doctors generally recognize the severity of a concussion but we, in society, have been conditioned to believe that it’s no big deal. Football players often return to games in which they’ve suffered a concussion. We don’t truly recognize the implications, in my view, of concussions and so we treat them rather cavalierly, IMO.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like the term

“brain contusion.”

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sprained Brain

works for me.

Well who the hell can see forever?

by Alxfritz on Jun 17, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I remember after my third concussion (and it was a milder one)

I couldn’t keep my balance for very long at a time or go without headaches.Hell, they wouldn’t even let me play catch back in high school for over a week. Putting him right back behind the plate where just one foul ball could give him another one this soon is just plain crazy. I don’t think he will play for the next few days, but just having him around if LaRue goes down would just be too tempting.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know who Reggie Ray is (never seen the movie)

but I figured I had to get in my Al Bundy moment and talk about something from high school.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yaddi's Concussions Left

Hopefully that number is waaayyy high.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

at least they're being proactive

something you don’t see from the medical side of things too much.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think I'd call this response

proactive. The proactive response would be to DL him. I think what’s gonna happen here is that Tony will give Yadi 2 games off, then Yadi will talk Tony into putting him back out there, whether his head’s better or not. They are just asking for trouble if you ask me.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 17, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Yadi wants to play

It can be hard to DL him.

by Evilfrog on Jun 17, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sure it is

You say “damn it Yadi, you are too important to fuck around with”

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really. Who's in charge here?

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2008 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If yadi doesnt agree with it

He can fight it. That’s what the players union is for. You can’t DL a player if he says he is healthy enough to play.

by Evilfrog on Jun 17, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Two guys get a concussion

third has a history of it.

New medical approaches come out, Cardinals enlist several players to be apart.

= proactive.

I’m not talking about Yadi’s exact situation I’m replying to the actual post.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shades of Gray

At the end of the day you can really shade a stat towards your bias anyway you like. Even more so now as we have so many stats to chose from. Every guy on our team has weaknesses, bar El Hombre, but even he has injury concerns.

If one could consider a stat on “no doubter” home runs, then one could have one when it comes to games lost. We have very few of those. Usually there’s a key stat or issue that came into play. 15 LOB and lost, a fat fastball for a grand slam, pitcher not having it/ closer living a mental train wreck.

I can personally think off the top of my head about 8 or nine games where one mistake or one pitching change cost the game. So the ironic part of it is that we could very well be 6-8 games better than now, talk about expectations.

Humans and especially pro athletes are so complex that stats only provide insight, but never tell a story.

The 2008 Cardinals story?

Build a farm system that has the mantra “you prove, you move”. Give guys the chance to showcase what they can do and back them when they do it. Walk on the field thinking the “hard nine” not as a cliche, but as a religion. Have a manager that guides the kids to play to their strengths, and a GM that believes in now with an eye on the future.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 10:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

A great statement...pure wisdom AE

Humans and especially pro athletes are so complex that stats only provide insight, but never tell a story.

by ridgesee on Jun 17, 2008 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't agree that we could be a lot better

because we have WON just as many games the same way. In fact (also off the top of my head), I think we have won even MORE games that way than we’ve lost. Think about the last two Phillies games, or last Sunday against the Astros, or Skip Schumakers two run walk-off (Skip frickin’ Schumaker!).

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on Jun 17, 2008 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My point wasn't to say that we've had hard luck

yeah, Karma is a BAMF. It’ll balance out.

My point was that stats don’t tell a story and we could be questioning more stats due to having even a better record.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If one could consider a stat on "no doubter" home runs, then one could have one when it comes to games lost. We have very few of those.

check out http://www.hittrackeronline.com/ . it’s a home run tracking site that measures what they call “true distance”, categorizes by “no doubts” “just enoughs” and “lucky homers”, has leaderboards on various home run stuff, etc. very fun. i have no affiliation with the site, btw – this isn’t an ad.

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 10:51 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Adam Dunn

has 9 “no-doubters” this season…maybe Dusty should think twice about bunting a guy who hits one off his Mercedes every 12 AB’s…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

adam dunn is the top of my head pick for the most underappreciated player in the game of baseball. reds fans were loudly booing him in our recent series. it’s ridiculous.

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, he can hit a lot of homers a long way...

but they still just count for 1 homer. He’s fat and lazy as well as being a horrible fielder.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 17, 2008 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fat, lazy, I don't know enough about him personally to agree or disagree with you on that.

But it’s a fact that he gives you about 40 homers and about 100 RBI’s year in and year out. There are very few players that you can say that about in either league…...

I like him because he is the three true outcomes guy.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2008 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

his career on-base percentage is also .382 – compare that with whoever it is you do like.

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm

I only took a few people off the top of my head but Dunn must rank up pretty high. In fact according to BR he is 155th all time in OBP and 20th among active (both for career OBP).

Pujols .423
ARod .389
Edmonds .377
Griffey .373
Burrell .371
Beltran .355
Soriano .327

by StLHugo on Jun 17, 2008 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Skippy's OBP is .370 this year, but we harp on him ceaselessly.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 17, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We?

Not everyone harps on him. But to answer why some do it is mainly because he augments that OBP with a .448 SLG where Dunn augments his career .382 OBP with a .519 SLG

by StLHugo on Jun 17, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

SLG isn’t an independent power statistic either, since it factors singles and schumaker has a higher AVG. isolated power (ISO) is SLG-AVG, a measure of extra bases alone. schumaker has a career .121 ISO, which i believe is about league average. i don’t think it’s exactly fair to compare the guy to adam dunn, but for what it’s worth he’s sitting on a stout .272 career ISO – a much more stark differential than what we’d see comparing SLG.

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2008 Schu

since everything else was 2008 Schu vs Career Dunn, this year Schu has an ISO of .138 a bit over his norm but still not near what he was being compared to.

by StLHugo on Jun 17, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

for his short career he’s got a less impressive but still above-average net .352 OBP: .321/.364/.468 against RHP, .223/.305/.234 against LHP, or .832 and .539 OPS respectively.

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He can't field...

This is true—but he gets on base at a .400 clip and hits 40 homers, and scores and drives in nearly 100 runs every year. Hard to argue with numbers like that.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what is the deal

w/ people making comments like this? Where do you get that he is fat and lazy? He’s a big guy but how do you know his work habits? Document something if you’re going to make brash statements like this.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

enough with the fat comments already

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I knew the guy in the minor leagues

I worked for the Rockford Reds baseball team (low A, now the Dayton Dragons) and he was anything but lazy. I would say he improved the most out of all players on that team and that team was loaded. Dunn, Austin Kearns, Gookie Dawkins, Corky Miller, Brandon Larson, Lance Davis, Antonio Perez to name a few. He wasn’t the best player on that team by a mile and he worked his ass of every day to get better.

He was big back then, and he’s still big. Athletic too.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

thanks for the insight into his work ethic in the minors

i think it has a lot to do with Cincinnatti’s gawd-awful announcers. Every chance they get, they either damn with faint praise or flat out insult a player- for instance, when Edwin Encarnacion made a tremendous backhanded play in this last series, saving runs, they said something to the effect of “that was a pretty good play by Encarnacion; usually he throws it away after making a play like that”... I couldn’t believe my ears.

And they constantly berate Dunn. It’s just sad. I mean, it is kind of understandable; he is much worse in LF than Chris Duncan, and we see how badly Duncan gets treated here. But he’s still the best player on the team, even with the lack of defensive skill.

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 17, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

thanks for clearing that up

I like how people pretend to know what someone’s activities are based on how they look. how grade school of them

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 17, 2008 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

O Jeez, sorry there P/C Police.

OKAY, he is fat. He is listed at 6’6” and 275 lbs. That is fat. Is that documented enough for you?

As for his fielding, he is universally considered to be one of the worst outfielders in baseball. Look at the metrics. And, he’s not Chris Duncan bad. He’s lazy bad. I’ve watched him play quite a bit.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 17, 2008 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And...

that still doesn’t change the fact that he has a career .382 on base, hits 40 homers a year, drives in 100 runs a year, and scores 80 runs a year. If Duncan played cruddy left field defense but had an OBP near .400 and hit 40 bombs a year none of us would be complaining about him…that’s why Dunn is underappreciated.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But, how much....

does his inability to run the bases and his terrible fielding offset his (admitidly great) offensive production. I remember a post LB did showing that Ryan Braun was such a bad 3rd baseman, that he cost almost as many runs as he created.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 17, 2008 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

win shares and WARP are two methods that attempt to factor the big picture in one stat. according to his (subscriber-only) PECOTA card at baseball prospectus, dunn had a respective 5.8, 4.5, and 5.3 WARP in 2005, 2006, and 2007. win share data is publicly available at his hardball times page.

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chris Duncan

Has a career: .352 OBP/ .496 SLG/ .848 OPS

He might hit 40 HR a year if he is allowed to play every day…...

by ICbirdfan on Jun 17, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

against righties...

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And...

He’s yet to play more than 110 games a season…Dunn has played better than 140 games every year but one, and has a career OPS of .901, which is 53 points higher than Duncan’s. Dunn is a much better known commodity than Duncan—you can count on him to put up those numbers nearly every year when healthy.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's bad defensively, as I never said he wasn't

but we had one guy going on and on yesterday about C.C. Sabathia being “fat and lazy” and here you’re doing the same thing about Adam Dunn. These are 2 really good ballplayers who have, inexplicably, been called fat and lazy for no reason whatsoever. Babe Ruth was fat. What do you think of him?

As for lazy, why make characterizations like that w/o some sort of evidence or any kind of indicator pointing to his laziness? Do you have anything that substantiates that the guy is lazy? Bad defensively, yes—I never questioned that. But he is good in so many ways that calling him lazy, w/o reason, seems absurd. Now, if you have some information that leads you to conclude that he’s lazy, I’d be interested. However, if your conclusion that he is lazy is based on the fact that he weighs 275, I’m not. You should have something to back up brazen statements like that rather than just posting them in some screed on the ‘net.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fat and Lazy

Adam Dunn. C.C. Sabathia. Babe Ruth. Tony Gwynn. Kirby Puckett. John Kruk (okay, bad example). Harmen Killebrew. Fernando Valenzuela.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How about Heavy and Good...

Seriously, lazy people don’t suceed in this game. It’s too damn hard to be any good if you just phone it in.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2008 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

David Wells being the exception

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not to mention calling someone names

is childish. It is a waste of keystrokes and it makes people sound immature.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Could I also nominate Derek Jeter as the most overappreciated player in baseball?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

on the Jeter comment.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 17, 2008 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hwo could you say that?

he’s a winner, plain and simple. he’s the kind of guy that steps up to the plate and delivers clutchily in big games. in other words, a ball player.
in fact, i’ll nominate him for “most ball-player player in baseball” instead.

by mattybobo on Jun 17, 2008 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’d like him a whole lot more if he wasn’t in NY and part of the MSM orgy fest.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

read

baseball between the numbers re: Jeter. He is the most OVERRATED player in the game and has been worse in the clutch than Alex Rodriguez. That’s not my opinion. That’s fact though listening to people like Tim McCarver would give you the opposite conclusion. ARod is now and has been more clutch than Jeter throughout his career.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oops...

my bad. i was actually being sarcastic, but it ended up not being very funny so i guess it wasn’t obvious enough. i personally hate derek jeter, for all of the reasons you just mentioned, plus the fact that he’s always on screen in televised games, with that empty look in his eyes which i’m sure the announcers always interpret as being full of “gamerly true-yankee-ness” or what have you.

by mattybobo on Jun 17, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sorry

yeah, I didn’t get it. Maybe if it had been anyone but Jeter b/c that’s all we hear about Jeter—he’s clutchy and a winner and all that jazz. Sorry again.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it's cool

maybe i’ll try “clutchitudinous” next time. i’ve been searching for a fake word like that to denote the fake skill that is “clutch”

by mattybobo on Jun 17, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For what it's worth

Bill James has publically stated that he was wrong in saying “clutch” doesn’t exist.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think...

that there are certain skills that pertain to being “clutch”, but being in clutch situations is completely random, and being on good teams tends to lead toward more clutch situations than normal. Certain people just respond better when the pressure is on—that’s true in regular life as much as in sports.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

really?

hm. maybe i need to read up again then…
i think we can all agree though, that most of time things like “clutch guy” and the like are thrown around it’s fairly meaningless.

by mattybobo on Jun 17, 2008 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

may look at this sometime, it’s the 60 minutes bit referenced

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bill James has publically stated that he was wrong in saying "clutch" doesn’t exist.

i watched the 60 minutes video you mentioned, and found it enjoyable so thanks for the pointer! he didn’t say anything about clutch, though.

the BROADCASTER, not james, says “james is rethinking that one [clutch hitting], especially after david ortizs’ 2004 walk-off home run that sent the red sox to the american league championship.” no confirmation was given, and it would be ridiculous if james of all people were to change statistical positions on the outcome of a one plate appearance.

it can be foolish to say anything does or does not exist out of hand, but i think if clutch hitting can’t be measured it can’t be that significant. i’m not aware of any current data that supports the theory of clutch hitting, and i think it would be a pretty big deal if it were to arise.

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

isnt clutch hitting

hitting anytime you have someone in scoring position with 2 outs?
I have always thought they should change the term that everyone uses as clutch hitting to “dramatic hitting”

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that’s one definition. others would look to late & close, 1-run games, etc. each way it’s sliced players have not yet been shown to have consistently elevated output in those situations over significant sample sizes.

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah

Oh well, memory was slighty fuzzy, but it’s not like James has said he didn’t agree with what the reporter is saying. And I think it has to do with more than just that one home run. Think of that home run as the straw that broke the camels back in regards to James’ stance on “clutch”.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if one home run has anything to do with it, i think his credibility as an analyst would correctly plummet. no indication was given in the broadcast that james believes clutch exists, and i’m not aware of that sentiment being expressed elsewhere – only that it, like most things, could still be studied in different ways. before searching for the straw, let’s see if the camel’s back was actually broken!

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think what James has actually

said is that he can’t be sure there is no such thing as clutch hitting. But that’s clearly not the same as saying that he thinks there is such a thing. In other words, it’s agnosticism, not atheism.

Has he come out lately with more thoughts on that subject?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 17, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if i remember correctly, both lb and i showed that Taguchi

had some sort of clutch ability. There are guys who have WPA numbers and the like exceed what you would expect from their regular production

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 17, 2008 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but if they were put in the clutch position often enough

that would almost certainly change.

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 17, 2008 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But they still have

something that others don’t in the relatively few “clutch” situations that they are put in.

by saladdays on Jun 17, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the simple question: who is “they”, and where is the proof? if consistent clutch ability has been found over a significant sample size, it would be a big deal in sabermetric circles.

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reacting to Valatan

He said that he and lboros proved some sort of clutch ability with Taguchi.

by saladdays on Jun 17, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it's simply

someone who rises to the occasion rather than buckling. that’s all a clutch hitter is.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 17, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would go further

and say it is someone who performs to their abiities in high pressure situations. Situations that often cause others to become distracted, too nervous to perform, etc.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is THAT why Clemens had Viagra in his locker?

So he could perform to his abilities in high-pressure situations that can cause others to be distracted or too nervous to perform?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 17, 2008 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ba-zing

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 17, 2008 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i was asking for names and supporting data, not a popular definition.

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Valatan gave you one already

I’m not a big stats guy, so I really don’t know who else. But I think there’s something to Bill James at least implying that there is no such thing as clutch hitting.

by saladdays on Jun 17, 2008 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

roger dodger, not hammering on you. i was just responding to clarify, and perhaps indicate that i might deserve enough credit to understand the premise of a subject i’m openly discussing!

as for the so taguchi example, here’s what i’ve got at a glance:

CAREER: .280 .334 .386
TWO OUTS, RISP: .267 .328 .382
LATE & CLOSE: .220 .315 .324

he’s a negative WPA player for his career, and his fangraphs CLUTCH stat shows no consistency from year to year – something i think would be necessary to make an argument for it as a skill.

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

James has said that

but he has, as some pointed out, more recently gone back on that. I think, and I’m not sure here, that he has concluded that there is some clutch ability (as Tom Tango did) but I think the evidence is pretty tenuous.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if it's an everyday player, and it's sustained over a career...

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 17, 2008 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

though Taguchi is obviously not an everyday player

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 17, 2008 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i guess i shouldn't have said i don't think it exists at all

but it is certainly overemphasized, and often incorrectly cited by professionals who should know better.
on one hand, i would agree that albert’s 2005 homer off of lidge can be justifiably called “clutch”, but on the other hand, the constant argument that derek jeter is a “clutch player” and alex rodriguez is not is a bunch of hot air, as fjm and others have pointed out over and over again.

by mattybobo on Jun 17, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, he's bad, but his girlfriends are always so damn good looking!!!

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 17, 2008 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's kind of hilarious

I was about to comment that the previous was the biggest joe morgan comment ever. I guess your wit is too sharply wrought a weapon than my dull blade.

by spencegrif on Jun 17, 2008 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

a Winner?

Just because you play on great teams your first 8 years does NOT make you a “winner”. Would you call Kobe Bryant a winner because he was the second best player on a three peat team? No, you’d call him a winner because he’s done it as the best player on his team. Jeter has NEVER been the best player on the Yankees. He’s a good ballplayer, but he’s certainly not the cornerstone type of player that everyone makes him out to be.

Tell me, what, exactly, has Jeter won since Paul O’Neill retired? With a $200 million payroll around him, David Eckstein would probably have played in numerous World Series as well. Those teams didn’t win BECAUSE Jeter. They won because they had good pitching, and unhittable bullpen, and good veteran leadership.

Don’t get me wrong, I like Derek Jeter as a person and he’s good for the game, but I tire of the hero worship. Had he played the first half of his career in Tampa, he’d just be another quality SS, not a demi-god and captain of the Yankees.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eckstein has played

in more world series in the last 7 years than Jeter…just sayin

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's ok

It’s just hard to separate sarcasm in that statement because, while it’s ridiculous, it’s a line that a ton of people take seriously.

A better comparison would be Robert Horry. People call him a “winner” and he’s hit some big shots for some good teams. But if he was hitting buzzer beaters for the Atlanta Hawks for his whole career he wouldn’t have seven rings, he’d be toiling at the bottom of the Eastern Conference. He’s been a solid player on a lot of teams, but his success has a lot to do with the teams he’s played on, not because he makes those teams “championship caliber”

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

although with horry

i think the fact that those shots came in the playoffs had more to do with his status than the team he was on. they weren’t just normal regular season shots for the hawks. they were huge shots that prevented elimination from or clinched a playoff series. if the name on the jersey was hawks in the lakers/blazers series it would have been the same. it might have been more than because it would probably have been “horry lifts a nobody team single-handedly.”

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Jun 17, 2008 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wait...

If Horry plays for the Hawks that status changes to “Horry lifts a nobody team single-handedly”? That’s a non-sequitor. Not once in his career was he ever one of the top 5 offensive players on his team, NOT ONCE.

He’s been a role player on a number of really good teams and is a player who’s been gifted with seven rings while:

1. Not being able to create his own shot
2. Not having to ever carry the load offensively or defensively
3. Knocking down wide open threes when the look was created by someone else.

I think you made my point for me—if he wasn’t on all those great teams, then his persona wouldn’t be as honorific.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he also

throws cheap shots in the playoffs at the opponents best players. See Game 4, 2007 playoffs Suns & Spurs

At least he's better than Esteban Yan.

by jacksonian on Jun 17, 2008 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and

Game 6 Spurs v. Hornets 2008 (David West)

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here in Houston

Robert Horry was, for a long time, known as the “Tin Man” b/c he had no heart. While he’s made some big shots, I wonder if we looked at the totality of his career, are we just remembering the few shots he made? It’s possible we remember 3 or 4 big shots made and don’t remember the 10 he missed? Or, did he get better as his career went along? Maybe he just happened to end up on really good teams where his big shots got noticed. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while. Or, maybe he really did become a clutch performer. I don’t have any idea about the answer. I’m just trying to point out that the image that is created by the media isn’t always true. See: Jeter, Derek.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which is why I compared them to each other...

Although Jeter probably has already punched his first ballot ticket to the Hall of Fame—which shows that it really does matter who you play for, not necessarily how good you were; see: Murphy, Dale

Horry has made some huge shots. I’m a huge Lakers fan and he was a key element to those championship teams in the early part of this decade. He was a solid rebounder and defensive player who could guard a variety of players and he was tremendous at knocking down open shots. Which, if you’re watching game 6 right now, LA is sorely missing. (Well, that and Kobe quitting in the middle of the second quarter. He’s no Jordan—if a team was making a run on the Bulls, Mike would relentlessly attack the rim and get to the line, interrupting the other teams offensive flow)

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I pickd up on the sarcasm

I just had to point out the comparison between Eck and Jeter in that regard.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i dig

you just know someday a sportswriter is gonna pen an article in favor of eckstein going into the hall of fame. he’ll include something like the following: “this guy has two world series rings, and a world series mvp award!”

by mattybobo on Jun 17, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, it's A-Rod

If producing mind-blowing stats were the purpose of baseball, then A-Rod would deserve all of the praise he gets.

But as the point of baseball is to win, A-Rod has to be the biggest waste of pretty stats in the history of the game. I’ve never seen a bigger loser.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Jun 17, 2008 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you can have a team of Jeters

and ill take a team of Arod’s…ill take my chances with that…granted Arod is only a better hitter, fielder, and base runner but Jeter kicks his ass in grit…

"Back in the day when I played, a pitcher had 3 pitches: a fastball, a curveball, a slider, a changeup and a good sinker pitch." - Mike Shannon

by nomar34 on Jun 17, 2008 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would take a team of...

Ankiels because at least they can hit, field and pitch (at least some times) ;)

by StLHugo on Jun 17, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

from CF

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

Ankiel’s pitching problem is the mound was too close to the batter. He should be allowed to throw from second base.

by Red in Chicago on Jun 17, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

“Pitching Mounds are for Pussies”

Love, Ankiel

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wonder if

a game went into, say, 17 innings. All the pitchers were used up. The Cardinals are on the road and have just taken the lead by a run. Would TLR use Ankiel to finish the game? It would make a great sequel to The Natural, especially if it was the longest World Series game in history.

by Red in Chicago on Jun 17, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not a chance

You can still see some of the effects of what Rick went through in Tony of today. The second most effected person in that whole diatribe was Tony IMO

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Rick would say

damn Tony, give me the damn ball so we can get this f-in game over with. One way or another my golden arm is going to finish this game.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can Jeter pitch?

Miles is Grit™

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

we need to start

a petition to get grit changed in the dictionary to miles. “He showed a lot of miles on that play!” i like that. has a certain ring to it.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Jun 17, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, gonna get in trouble for laughing at that one too loud at work.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 17, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And your team would perform splendidly

only to go silent in October.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Jun 17, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

show me...

take both players and put their postseason stats together in a lineup generator and see who’s lineup scores more runs….

I bet you that it’s not Jeter. A-Rod’s postseason numbers are not that bad—its the microscope he’s under every time he gets there…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I used the lineup generator at Baseballmusings.com

Team of ARods: 7.238 runs per game

Team of Jeters: 6.049 runs per game

Unfortunately, it didn’t project how those stats would break down by month.

by Ray Lankford on Jun 17, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

some one has bought into the media hype...

Arod postseason: .279 .361 .483 .844
Jeter postseason: .309 .377 .469 .846

add in the better defense and how much better overall Arod is ill stick with him….

"Back in the day when I played, a pitcher had 3 pitches: a fastball, a curveball, a slider, a changeup and a good sinker pitch." - Mike Shannon

by nomar34 on Jun 17, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

WPA

WPA (win probability added): WPA is the difference in win expectancy (WE) between the start of the play and the end of the play. That difference is then credited/debited to the batter and the pitcher. Over the course of the season, each players’ WPA for individual plays is added up to get his season total WPA.

arod has offensively increased his team’s win expectancy every year since 1996. this isn’t a vacuum statistic, it’s a measurement against historical probability that shows when a player has left his team in a measurably better position to win after his plate appearance than it was before it. i wouldn’t go evaluating players by WPA, but i think it’s a good point to consider when people suggest that a given one isn’t contributing wins.

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mr. Clutch

aka Derek Jeter, has a postseason OPS of .846.

The worst choker in the history of sports, aka A-Rod, has a postseason OPS of .844.

I think the reactionary New York hype machine has as much to do with both men’s reputations as anything. As is often the case, however, reality doesn’t exactly match the hype.

by Merry CRasmus on Jun 17, 2008 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Reputation Has a Source

A-Rod during the last four games of the 2004 ALCS: 2-17 (that s .058 avg. over those games)
Wanna know how the Red Sox accomplished a historic, unprecedented come-back? A-Rod and his mythic powers of loser-dom is a big part of the story.

A-Rod during the 2005 Divisional Series: obp .133 avg. .071 slg. .071

If Miles is grit, A-Rod deserves a picture next the following entry: choke (v.) as in “to choke”

Basically, my argument stands up as long as this loser never actually wins anything other than large piles of cash. So far, I’ve got a perfect record.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Jun 17, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sample size.

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cherry Picking is fun

If we take those 4 games in 2004 and all the games in 2006(which I think you are referring to) away, then A-Rod has a .328/.400/.612 postseason line. But we don’t need to play all those games. Overall, his OPS is still right on par with the man recognized as one of the all time clutch postseason players, Derek Jeter. Mr. October himself, Reggie Jackson, has a career OPS of .678 in the LCS. Thank goodness the vaunted Reggie Jackson had teammates that could carry him to the World Series, where he could earn that clutch reputation, no? Otherwise he might be known as a choker. It’s unfortunate someone hasn’t been able to do the same for A-Rod and his .844 OPS.

The choker label is one of the most misused terms in sports. It’s the reliable crutch of lazy and “provocative” media personalities and often gets put on people without rings even if their personal performance isn’t that bad. Off the top of my head I can think of Peyton Manning, John Elway (Yes people used to think he was a choker), Eli Manning, Bill Self, Roy Williams, Steve Young, Phil Mickelson. Did all these people all of the sudden stop becoming chokers? Or were the people putting the label on them wrong all along?

by Merry CRasmus on Jun 17, 2008 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, but Derek Jeter BLEEDS for his team.

Just look, they are still replaying it on the YES network. He had to wear a band-aid for, like, a whole WEEK after falling in the stands. That is just awsomeness topped with creamy filling of cool, wrapped in a celophane wrapper of tough.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 17, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

eckstreem knows exactly what i’m thinking about the matter

by mattybobo on Jun 17, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

remember when Randy Johnson was a horrible choker?

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 17, 2008 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's Not Cherry Picking

It’s where his actual reputation actually comes from. You say, “Small sample size.” Well, yeah—that’s the nature of the post-season. It’s short, i.e., inherently unfair from a statistical point of view. But statistics do not hold a monopoly on the truth, or even on player evaluation.

A-Rod can point to his play against Cleveland last year to say that he can perform in October. He put up good numbers. But the Yankees lost.

So I guess it’s unfair—judging a player by the small sample sizes of play-off appearances and the outcomes of games. But I think that is how sports work, i.e., winning and losing championships is kind of the object of the game.

I guess you would say that it was arbitrary to consider Eli Manning an under-achiever, and then to change your mind just because he lead his team to an insane - insane - Super Bowl victory. But I think a player who never won, like Barry Bonds, would tell you that there is a fundamental difference between succeeding an falling short. And if you reduce everything to mere stats, then you have eviscerated the essence of sports—the challenge of being in the moment, of having to perform, and of succeeding during the one chance you have to do so.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Jun 17, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not Fair

Because you’re totally cherry-picking your sample sizes!

He’s been a pretty good postseason player for most of his career, just not in that particular series. As I posted below, Jeter didn’t exactly set the world on fire those last four games either. Not to mention that he walked only once in those four games as the LEADOFF hitter for the Yankees. I bet A-Rod might have hit better if the players in front of him had been on base…yet Jeter is a “clutch” performer and A-Rod is a “choke-artist”. It’s ridiculous.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

His team lost

mainly because the rest of the team stunk out the joint, including Pope Jeter, who hit a fantastic .176 with a .352 OPS for the series.

You can’t blame A-Rod for his team’s shortcomings—even the great postseason players didn’t win series’ by themselves.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

contradictory data has been presented about his career performance in both the regular season and post-season, and it involves larger sample sizes than those on which you’ve selected.

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Baseball is a team sport

Which is where your argument fails. You are equating team success with individual success, and ignoring the fact that a player can have a phenomenal year, (ARod’s 2007: 177 OPS+) but play on a bad team. You do recognize this possibility, right?

I think your argument works, to a certain extent, with individual sports, such as golf. Look at Tiger—he’s fucking amazing. But he also doesn’t rely on anyone else when winning tournaments. What if, for the sake of argument, PGA events were played by two man teams in an alternate shot format. Suppose Tiger and I (not a good golfer) are on a team and we loose every single tournament, despite Tiger’s multiple rounds under par. Does that make Tiger a loser because he has the “mind-blowing stats” but didn’t win, which is the point of the game? Of course not. It would mean that he lost despite playing amazing golf because his partner sucks ass.

Sorry for the long-winded hypo, but I really can’t believe people still advance this argument.

by Ray Lankford on Jun 17, 2008 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is right.

We often talk about how Bonds’ career (well, not “we” but some do) has been a failure b/c he never won a WS. Yet, the guy was tremendous in the series against the Angels. His team came up short. The bottom line is that 1 person cannot carry a team in baseball—maybe in other sports, I’m not sure. But ARod is not a failure b/c he’s never won a WS. Same w/ Bonds.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is true...

But if you look at those Pittsburgh teams of the late 80’s and early 90’s, most of Barry’s teammates performed pretty well in those series and Barry was a huge steaming pile in those series. He played very well for the Giants when they made their series run in ‘02…but his performances in the playoffs up to that point had been absolutely ugly.

Here’s his career numbers prior to 2002: .197/.270/.298 with 1 HR in 97 AB’s. For a player of his talent, that is the definition of pathetic. They may not have won anything had he played well, but they’re surely not going to win anything with their best player playing that poorly. I wouldn’t consider Bonds a failure as a player (as a person, well, that’s another story) just because he didn’t win a title.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But why only the pre-2002 numbers?

You even acknowledge that he had a good series against the Angels. Are you really going to call Barry’s playoff performance “pathetic” based on a couple series in the “late 80’s and early 90’s” while you consciously ignore the more recent example of his playoff performance.

You can make numbers say pretty much anything you want to if you pull them as selectively as you just did.

by Ray Lankford on Jun 18, 2008 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So

How did Derek Jeter (aka: God) perform in those games sir?

Answer: 4-17 with 1 extra base hit

he hit a fantastic .200/.333/.233 for the series.

THAT’S CLUTCH!

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no no

Keep the Dunn Bunts comming Dusty.

by Evilfrog on Jun 17, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW

Awesome Website…I think I could easily waste an entire afternoon here…..hmmmmmmmmm

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh yeah

I have it bookmarked. Just saying we should have a stat on games lost that were no doubters. How would that pan out? I’m not sure. But we’ve given a load of games away with one or no at bats left (bottom 8th/9th on the road, top 9th at home). Those would be the games I would consider not being “no doubters”.

Games that would be? The Giants thrashing, the Phillies a couple of nights ago, a couple of Houston games etc.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you could look at WE%

And look at games where WE% was above a certain percentage (say 95%) for more than X (say 2) innings. Maybe? But that would be hard to compile the data, very manual intensive

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on Jun 17, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Career leaders

So after looking up how good Dunn’s OBP really is I decided to take a look at some other leaderboard items on BR.

The best career slg% for a RH .6207 who owns it?
The best OPS by a RH 1.0438? Also the only active RH with over 1.0 career OPS, and with Helton and Bonds is one of the only 3 “active” players to have over 1.0 career OPS.
3rd best career OBP by a RH and best active OBP by a RH? .4231

If you answered ARod you are dead wrong. Any guesses?

by StLHugo on Jun 17, 2008 11:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Looper

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Could it be a BOB 1B?

that is currently injured?

"Back in the day when I played, a pitcher had 3 pitches: a fastball, a curveball, a slider, a changeup and a good sinker pitch." - Mike Shannon

by nomar34 on Jun 17, 2008 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When did Duncan get injured?

...haha but yes AP is correct.

by StLHugo on Jun 17, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aaron Miles?

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Jun 17, 2008 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps

the greatest player in baseball who is currently on the DL?

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on Jun 17, 2008 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Springfield

Big game tonight for the baby birds. Last game of the first half and a must win for them to win the Texas league North. Should be fun to watch with Jess Todd pitching.

by gdowdy on Jun 17, 2008 11:51 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Damn

I wonder if it’s sold out, stuck down in Joplin this week and may be worth running up there for that. Hearing nothing but great things about Todd

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Little Rock

Actually the game is in Little Rock tonight. Forgot to mention that.

by gdowdy on Jun 17, 2008 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ah, duh

I glanced at the schedule and seen the home game on the 17th, turned out to be April instead of June. Hmm

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Springer

I didn’t know this: Did Springer’s past come back to haunt him?

Springer, when he played for the Astros in 2006, found himself on the mound facing Barry Bonds when the Giants slugger had 713 home runs, one short of Babe Ruth. Apparently determined not to give up a historic homer, Springer repeatedly threw the ball at Bonds until he finally plunked him on his fourth try.
When Springer finally got the job done, he was ejected by home plate umpire Joe West and he exited the field to a standing ovation from the Houston crowd. Springer was ejected and got a $50,000 fine for his actions.
In 2004 Springer also threw repeatedly at Bonds before finally hitting him, although there was never a clear explanation for that incident. Some say that it relates all the way back to an incident in 1998 when Bonds hit a homer against Springer and showed him up by spinning around as he jogged around the bases.

Starting to man crush a lil. Shh

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 12:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I was watching that game

and it was the first thing I thought of when I read that Springer hit Howard when we were down by 16 or something the other day. I don’t know if Springer hit Howard on purpose but, if he did, it was the 2nd most gutless thing he’s ever done.

I’ve never been a Bonds fan but that PA in 2004 was nothing but gutless. He used Bonds as target practice and finally, after failing time after time, was able to hit him. Not only was it gutless, but it was tremendously incompetent as he couldn’t even get it right until the 3rd or 4th try. Had Bonds done anything to show up Springer or any other Astro? No. Was this payback for Berkman or someone on the Astros getting drilled by some Giants pitcher? No. It was a carnival act and the way the ignorant Astros’ fans treated Springer was abominable.

Springer was a coward. There was no reason to do what he did and Springer, hiding behind a baseball thrown 90 MPH, used Bonds as target practice in order to make some sort of asinine statement. And… he didn’t even do it well.

I believe Springer to be, basically, a good guy. Anybody can act like a jackass at times but his behavior then was atrocious. He should have been ashamed of himself and the fans who cheered him should be ashamed of themselves as well. It was one of the ugliest displays I’ve ever witnessed on a baseball field.

Bonds, as big an ass as he is, took it like a man, too. He went down to first rather than going out and beating the shit out of Springer, which is exactly what Springer deserved.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not

saying the event was the greatest thing in baseball, or anything of the like. But when you hear of “sources” talking shit about Bonds but never seeing anything in public, it’s nice to see someone who holds a grudge and actually shows it.

Was it cowardly? Sure, was it level headed? not at all. Maybe even insane to hold onto a grudge like that for 8 years.

However, if you’re going to do it, do it. Instead of playing the “i meant inside” card and pussy out. Spinning would have pissed me off. That’s not excitement, that’s what breeds those grudges.

And I don’t see anything in the Howard hit that seemed like it was intentional in the slightest.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

While I agree....

Nobody, and I mean nobody, would have spun around after hitting a homer off of Bob Gibson or Bob Feller. Those guys would have put one in your ear the next time they saw you in the box. The problem here is that Springer probably hadn’t seen him in the box for 2 years whereas Gibson or Feller surely would have seen you within the next couple of months.

There’s far to much showing up of pitchers these days. I also think there are times when Albert poses a little to long as well. I’m pretty old school…hit your tater and take your trip around the bases in a fast trot—like Mather did after his first homer and how Scotty Rolen used to all the time.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is the main reason i hate manny ramirez

i hated seeing that clip of him over and over again last postseason with his arms in the air after he hit a no-doubt homer (can’t remember which game). it was like he had personally caused the sun to rise or something.

by mattybobo on Jun 17, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

though

I take great pleasure when Manny, in particular, stares into the stands as his ‘homerun’ bounces off the wall and he has to scamper for bomb of a single…..

by cdb on Jun 17, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

heh

in fairness to manny, i’m not against his wacky personality entirely. even though it was silly i sort of thought the high five to the fan this year was cool.

by mattybobo on Jun 17, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, I actually enjoyed that. It was a nice catch, followed with the high five,

followed with a perfect throw for a double play. The man clearly enjoys his time on the baseball field, and I can never get too mad at that. I just can’t.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2008 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

horse hockey

that was a unnecessary and thoughtless action. he didn’t need to run up the wall. nor should he have been high-fiving with a runner on-base a game going on behind him..
Though slightly humorous from afar, those sorts of narcissistic stunts would drive me nuts if he was on the cards. the only reason any of that is tolerated is because he’s an exceptional talent with the bat. and the ‘manny being manny’ circular logic is just bullshit on a platter.

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Jun 17, 2008 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

in principle i agree with you

as i said above, i generally hate manny. for some reason that particular stunt just made me laugh instead of pissing me off. it’s kind of like how a broken watch is still correct at least twice a day—sometimes manny ramirez does something stupid and attention-grabbing that i actually find somewhat amusing.

by mattybobo on Jun 17, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So is Gibson a coward?

Because he threw at people who showed him up as well.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jun 17, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He may have spun or something

and then Springer waited 6 or 8 years to get back at him…and then did it twice? Yeah, cowardly. Also, I refuse to believe that this had anything to do w/ spinning. Once you let it go 6 years, it’s gone. This happened fairly recently after the BALCO stuff started. And, you know what, Gibson wouldn’t have missed 3 times. Once you miss, you’ve lost your shot as far as I’m concerned. Springer was gutless there, yeah. No doubt about it.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did Gibson actually plunk

Jackson or just brush him back? That is a funny story, I wonder what his fastball registered that day?

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 17, 2008 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no...

But he threw it up and in at the chin level…I remember that game. Didn’t Gibson also hit a huge bomb in one of those games as well? I think it was the ‘92 game if I remember correctly.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gibson

If you’re talking about a game in Busch stadium, it was 1991 I think. (The real game that day was against the Braves, and I remember thinking they weren’t for real. It was the first year they made the playoffs during their run.)

Gibson pulled one down the left field line and it left the park – back when the fences were further back and still 10 feet high. When he crossed the plate he did muscle builder pose.

by Robb on Jun 17, 2008 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yah

You’re right, it was ‘91…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wonderful Gibson anecdote

Mets second baseman, Ron Hunt (St. Louis native) was famed for faking being hit by pitches. Flimflammed Gibson in the first. Next time up Gibson drilled him in the ribs. Ditto the third time. Fouth time up Hunt was bailing out of the box during Gibby’s windup.

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Jun 17, 2008 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

So

Is he gutless because he threw at him a total of four times, or because he threw at him at all?

by saladdays on Jun 17, 2008 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don't know how to react to that incident

On the one hand, I don’t like pitchers throwing at batters. It’s dangerous and nothing good really comes of it.

On the other hand, if I was a pitcher, especially one that pitched in the west, and I believe Barry hit some homeruns off me that he didn’t deserve because of his roid use…well, I’m sure that hurt my negotiating position come contract time. Where would you pitch a guy who you believed took money out of your paycheck?

by hex706f726368 on Jun 17, 2008 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it was actually the FIFTH try

I never did see this, so I was looking for the video of it; i remember it happening, but i didn’t care to watch it at the time, since springer was just another jerk of a houston reliever and Bonds was just another big dude chasing a record, but now that I have an emotional attachment to springer, I’m morbidly fascinated. Kinda like if someone claimed that they had video of batman spraypainting gang signs under an overpass.

Anyway, I did not find it, though the 5th pitch, the one that hit him, is on youtube, the rest of the AB is not. it is disgusting that houston fans cheered after the plunking.

Anyway, from:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2447860

1) ball thrown behind him
2) Ball thrown at his knees
3) ball that hit the knob of the bat, for a strike (guessing the guy that wrote the earlier article saw “foul ball” and assumed it was a real pitch)
4) fastball, way inside.
5) ball that hit him in the back

Anyway, if anyone has a copy of this video, I’d be interested in seeing it.

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 18, 2008 3:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

spinning...

whether it’s the reason for the plunking or not, i wouldn’t blame springer for holding a grudge for bonds showing him up in this manner much more demonstrative than a bat flip or lingering at the plate to watch a hr.

as far as the friday night incident, i wanted to believe him, but color me a bit pessimistic. that being said, his post-game denial seemed extremely genuine.

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Jun 17, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I remember...

a former Cardinal pitcher admitting to plunking a guy in ST…and he got a larger suspension for it. (Can’t remember who though….grrr.)

So, denying it was Springer’s only option.

Not saying Springer isn’t being honest, but the MLB Office has proven they want players at least to fake it….even when it’s obvious.

Run Vince run! There's a tarp chasing you! Run! It's right behind you!

by TBender on Jun 17, 2008 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Additionally

Springer should’ve been suspended for MANY games. Like I said, it was a carnival. He should’ve been ejected when the first or 2nd went past Bonds but everybody just sat there waiting to see if he could hit Bonds. It was like watching the boy at the carnival try over and over again to hit the target on the dunking booth. Finally that child was able to hit the target and the crowd cheered lustily as they would when that 6 year old was finally able to dunk the person in the booth.

As I said…abominable!

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

how hard can it be...

to hit a guy as top heavy as Bonds…his head is two zip codes wide for pete’s sake!

He should have been ejected for inability to plunk a player properly more than anything else.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because unlike some pitchers (ahem..Brandon Backe...ahem)

Springer isn’t a head hunter. He’ll hit you in your ass. It will sting a litlle and you go about your business.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

read about 9-10 MSM recounts (read, not giant based sites) and I get the impression it was cleaner than what that site i linked to presented it.

Bonds one short of tying Ruth, seeing the ball well from the earlier plate appearances, hitting outside pitches.

Springer comes in, throws a soft slider that almost hits Bonds in the ass, Bonds moved. Teams warned. Another slider in, down around the feet. Fastball inside, comes off his bat. Another fastball in, next one hits him.

Post game Springer goes to be with wife for Surg.

Seems to be a mixed case of “jam him inside because he’s hitting the outside pitches”, “if I hit him, well… oh well”, “I don’t want to be the Ruth tying pitcher”, and etc.

Grudge laden? Possibly. But I see it more as bulldog than careless headhunting.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

That is how I remember that AB—then I remember Skip Bayless’ head nearly exploding the next day saying how Springer should be banned from the league and blah blah blah.

I remember Hrabosky talking about some pitcher he used to play with that had an incentive in his contract that expired after he walked his 30th hitter of the year. He got to September with 28 walks, and proceeded to drill any guy he got behind 3-0 so his incentive kicked in. IMO, HBP’s are taken WAY to seriously these days…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unfortuanely

Skip Bayless’ head didn’t explode.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Skip Bayless

should be banned from talking about baseball.

by saladdays on Jun 17, 2008 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Skip Bayless

should be banned from talking about anything within earshot of me.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Skip Bayless

Should be banned from talking at all.

There, I think that settles it.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I watched the PA on TV

and I think that’s the right situation—he was about to pass Ruth, or maybe had just passed Ruth. He threw 4 at Bonds and kept missing and missing until finally getting him. There’s no doubt he was throwing at him. I was sure at the time and am sure now. It was cowardly and, in my mind, tied to his effort to pass Ruth. I don’t know anything about Bonds spinning when going around the bases 6 or 8 years prior but, in my mind, if 6 or 8 years have passed and you still haven’t plunked him, the statute of limitations has run out.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What

If you hadn’t faced him in 6 years? How long a memory are you allowed to have?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 17, 2008 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anyone notice Oberkfell?

Ken Oberkfell is the AAA manager for Mets organization. He’s being called up to the major league staff after Randolph’s firing.

by sdrone on Jun 17, 2008 1:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

so they fire

Tom Nieto and bring up Oberkfell. So like they think changing their cards is good luck.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

in all seriousness

they probably should

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was being serious

or Milt Thompson—another former Card and great (as far as I know) coach w/ the Phils.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

really?

I thought he was a human being

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not in my opinion

Call it petty or simply holding a grudge for 23 years. But when you are 10 years old and you meet a professional baseball player from your favorite team and you are so nervous you stutter and can’t quite get the words out to ask for an autograph…and he then proceeds to laugh and immitate you for the 20 or so people who are standing around while they all laugh tends to stick with you.

Terry Pendleton is a jackass.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

in that case

I would tend to agree

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So

the 20 or so people standing around aren’t jackasses too?

by saladdays on Jun 17, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lets just go ahead

and assume everyone’s a jackass until they prove otherwise. Makes life easier.

Well who the hell can see forever?

by Alxfritz on Jun 17, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wise words my friend

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jun 17, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Check

everyone is jackass…perfect.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 17, 2008 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can get on that

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

were the tommy herrs wife and Terry Pendleton rumors ever true?

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Jun 17, 2008 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure

what’s your point? Unfortunatley I don’t know their names so I can call them out.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't realize

you didn’t know who any of them were.

by saladdays on Jun 17, 2008 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My bad

I was at a spring training game in St. Petersburg and was down near the field before the game.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You've posted this before, I believe

at least, I hope this didn’t happen twice and his actions (and, frankly, those of the 20 people who laughed) were unconscionable. If I were you, I’d still be upset also. I believe you have every right. I still say that Pendleton is a great coach and would make a great manager and would hope that he regretted ever doing that. If not, he’s a jackass. He wouldn’t be the first great manager who’s a jackass and won’t be the last.

It’s stories like these that should make us remember that, even if we think we know, we don’t really know the people on the field. We cultivate this image of them and it may be nowhere near the truth. Is it possible Bonds isn’t really the dick we all believe him to be? Anything’s possible, right?

Anyway, sorry again for that incident. 10 years old! Unconscionable!

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can understand holding that grudge too

On the other side of that coin, Cole Hamels was really cool this weekend, signing autographs for a lot of kids, and even adults, before the game on Saturday. I’m personally not into autographs anymore, but a lot of kids are, and it’s probably more significant than we realize when a few athletes take the time to interact postively with the fans, especially kids.

by Merry CRasmus on Jun 17, 2008 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sunday rather

But the point still stands. I like to see that – especially from a guy that would be in high demand, like Hamels.

by Merry CRasmus on Jun 17, 2008 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

30 seconds of your time can make a fan for life.

It’s actually quite nice to see Tackle Box still into baseball despite that, I mean being a fan of baseball that did something in that regard wouldn’t be easy. Some have walked away from the sport for less.

I’d say that 30 seconds can mean a lifetime to a child, no matter where he comes from.

Sometimes in sport we forget that we serve the adults, we inspire the children

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he/she

didn’t mean to make my comment gender specific, thinking of my boy (who’s about 6 states away this week)

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He

And as far as how I felt about it. I probably got more upset a little later in life as I thought about it and realized it bothered me enough to remember it. At the time i was embarassed but kinda let it go since I was all jacked to be talking to Vince Coleman and Tony Pena and Jim Lindeman (for whatever reason, he was about my favorite ever at the time) and kinda forgot about it for the time being. Don’t think I even said anything to me parents about it.

And you’re right HC, I have mentioned it before. And will probably mention it in someway everytime someone mentions him being the next Cardinal manager. (granted it was Mets manager in this case).

As far as still being a fan. Hell, I don’t know what I’d do if I weren’t. I teach and coach baseball at the high school level. It’s pretty much my life.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

was this a loose angels in the outfield ref?

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Jun 17, 2008 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that was supposed to go with matty frommos comment

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Jun 17, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Road Winning

Since it was stated awhile ago that the Cards were one of only a few teams with a winning road record I figured I would recap that stat as it stands today:

NL Road Records:
St Louis 19-15
Philly 20-17
Cubs 16-17
Fla 16-17
SF 17-18

Everyone else is more then 1 game below .500 on the road.

AL:
Angels 21-12
A’s 16-14
NY 19-18

Everyone else is more then 1 game below .500.

This is a really odd year for home teams being that good, only 5 teams have a winning record on the road.

by StLHugo on Jun 17, 2008 3:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

>=.500 teams.

Next I looked at the NL records against teams with a >=.500 record since that is what today’s post was about. There are a total of 4 NL teams that have a winning record against other winning clubs. 3 are in the NL East and then the Cards. While it is only 18 games our 10-8 record smashes the DBacks 2-11 record and is better then the Phillies 10-9 record (only because we won the series this weekend) yet it falls short of the Mets and 15-11 and Marlins 12-6

by StLHugo on Jun 17, 2008 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's starting to balance out though

The A’s and Yanks have gotten above .500. Not long ago there were only three teams above .500.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 17, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wasting Pitches?

I have a suspicion that I want to verify. I think Cards’ pitchers (Wainer excepted) are too often trying to get hitters to chase on a 2-2 pitch instead of trying to catch a corner. I have been seeing too many 3-2 counts, and many times they result even though a pitcher has been ahead 0-2 or 1-2. Does anyone have any recommendations on how I could obtain the data to verify that hypothesis? (e.g. ball vs. strikes thrown on a 2-2 count; or even more specific pitch FX data, say on vs. off the plate on a 2-2).

Also, I have a suspicion that a 0-1 pitch is many times thrown off the plate. I almost get the impression that the pitcher is obligated to throw a 0-1 away just because he got the first strike in. At the very least, I think it might be straightforward to tally the number of 0-2 counts. But some of those will involve swinging at a bad pitch at 0-1.

I guess I want to compare our pitchers vs. the rest of the league and the top pitchers to see if we are less aggressive on a 2-2 and 0-1 counts. I’ve been a bit frustrated, especially recently, at the number of walks issued. Any help would be appreciated. I don’t mind crunching the numbers, but I just don’t know what types of data are best and where to get ‘em.

Thanks.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Jun 17, 2008 3:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Help

Can anyone help with my request? Is my hypothesis even worth looking into?

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Jun 17, 2008 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

baseballinfosolutions.com is the stat source for fangraphs, hardball times, etc but it’s commercial. i looked at a couple pitch f/x analysis sites i have bookmarked and they won’t fit the bill. i don’t subscribe to the baseball-reference play index, but it doesn’t cost anything to see if the query you want is possible. if that doesn’t look good i’d try asking for a pointer at the fangraphs forums.

by astrostl on Jun 17, 2008 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

baseball-reference

has some of this stuff though you’re dealing w/ really small sample sizes. For instance, here is Wainwright’s page . Search by pitcher and go to their splits for this year. You could then compile them and look at the staff as a whole—at least you’d have a good number of PA’s.

For example, this year, on a 2-2 count batters have a .128/.128/.179 line against Wainwright w/ 21 K’s in 39 PA’s. That means, of course, that 39 PA’s have ended on the pitch following a 2-2 count. On a 3-2 count, batters have a .111/.294/.185 line w/ 7 BB’s and 7 K’s in 34 PA’s. Small sample sizes but, so far, Wainwright’s been deadly w/ a 2-2 count. What you don’t get from this is that maybe Wainwright is more careful w/ good hitters & 2-2 counts so that maybe his 2-2 count numbers are against weak hitters and his 3-2 count numbers are against better hitters.

Sorry, I didn’t see that you excluded Wainwright. Still, you could do this for the other pitchers and see what you come up w/. Use baseball-reference’s splits page for each pitcher. I’d be interested in your conclusions.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the tips

astrostl and hc,

much obliged.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Jun 17, 2008 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well I have had a bad feeling with all the injuries and stuff

but came to the site today and saw the add on the right hand side… now i have “hope” sorry had too

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Jun 17, 2008 3:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

heh

OMG! the astros fans were sweating… at the ballpark!

if it’s true, shame on drayton mcclane for being cheap. but i’m thinking the fans are just being babies. baseball was meant to played outdoors, with sunlight and birds. heaven help us if we break a sweat and require some liquid refreshment.

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Jun 17, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, but if they are sitting in an enclosed box

with the only breeze provided by the Astro whiffs, it would be a miserable experience. I’ve sat at games in 100 degree weather, but they were outdoors, and any hint of a breeze was a relief… sounds like the owner is being stupidly cheap…

When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say?

by RosevilleRedbird on Jun 17, 2008 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well it is Drayton

but if you follow the links in Luke’s comment ,then hit the link in that article’s comments, it seems that the faulty A/C may be a construction fuck up

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know

it’s been mid-90’s w/ 80-90% humidity for 3 weeks or so. It’s hot like Vietnam! I just went outside and tried to play ball w/ my son and made it about 5 minutes. As for liquid refreshment, you’d damned near need an IV to get through a game.

by chuckb on Jun 17, 2008 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Houston can be pretty miserable

You might be surprised at just how uncomfortable it gets there.

by random on Jun 17, 2008 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i was at the Astros v. Cards game a week ago...

and the roof was closed. it was miserably hot, but it wasn’t UNBEARABLE. you could tell they were trying to save energy, because about every 30 minutes you’d get a nice gust of A/C, but it went away realllly fast.

by longhornscardinals on Jun 17, 2008 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have relatives that live just South of Houston

After I graduated college, my mom and I flew down to spend some time visiting. I was sleeping on the couch and woke up early (6:45ish?). I looked outside and thought, “it looks nice outside, think I sit on the porch a little while”. I then opened the door and almost threw up.

I spent the day inside watching tv.

by Tackle Box on Jun 17, 2008 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

News on Carpenter?

So, the Big and Middle Cheeses have apparently met with Dr. Cheese and Cy Young Cheese.

Anyone know when the plan of attack on Carpenter’s elbow will be released?

by Red in Chicago on Jun 17, 2008 4:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Maybe

when the cheese ferments?

by saladdays on Jun 17, 2008 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

mmmm, cheese wine.

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 17, 2008 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

According to 1380 AM

Carp will be throwing again in rehab shortly. Meeting with Georgia Dr. and tests show no new problems. Nothing discussed by Carp about numbness, only about the soreness after that last 60 pitch simulated game.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jun 17, 2008 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

TONIGHT'S LINEUPS

Cardinals:
Schumaker lf
Ryan 2b
Ludwick rf
Ankiel cf
Glaus 3b
Duncan 1b
LaRue c
Pineiro p
Izturis ss

Kansas City:
DeJesus cf
Aviles ss
Gordon 3b
Guillen lf
Grudzielanek 2b
Teahen rf
Olivo c
Gload 1b
Davies p

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jun 17, 2008 5:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Gotta watch out for that SS

he has been on fire since being called up.

I thought his name was Avales, though.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 17, 2008 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's Aviles,

Mike Aviles. He could be a decent option for our middle infield if the Royals initiate a fire sale. He dominated Triple-A Omaha before getting the call to the majors. It’ll be nice to see him in action.

by rockin the red on Jun 17, 2008 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but the Royals

wouldn’t exactly want to get rid of a low cost alternative at SS, especially considering the quality of SS that have been there lately (Tony Pena, Jr ) . And we bitch about Izturis’ bat!
I really doubt the Royals would initiate a fire sale. Outside of Meche and Guillen, they really don’t have any high priced players. Plus Moore really seems intent on giving these kids a chance to turn things around.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Miles can pinch hit

in the 7th, pitch in the 8th and catch in the 9th?

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 17, 2008 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

don't worry

LaRue is indestructible

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 17, 2008 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

except when Larue was playing first

and Albert was playing 2nd. I’m surprised we got away with that one…

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 17, 2008 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's like Achilles

Except, instead of his heel being his weak spot, it’s his “cornhole”

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 17, 2008 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dear Tony,

Don’t worry about DL’ing Yadi, let my boy rest up on the bench. I can handle this.

When Jordan was crunchin’ wheaties, I was chompin’ nails.

In the offseason I played the lead in Shaft, the whiteboy porn version.. because as you all know, I’m a “Bad Ass Mother-”

When I was in KC they feared me in the locker room, I can’t say why. But I’m assuming it’s my massive guns.

I can do this, I have the will of the stache’ and my bat has been on Fiirrreee lately.

Yours Truly,
LaRue – winner of three Woodies and a silver slugger award – they give those to catchers… right?

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

plus, this is a revenge series for him

i fully expect him to go all sno-cones on KC this week.

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 17, 2008 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hope so

From the games I’ve seen they live on DeJesus, shut him down and they have a harder time going. But when he’s doing what he wants to do, they get a lot tougher

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 17, 2008 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ahh... sno-cones

we hardly knew ye…

When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say?

by RosevilleRedbird on Jun 17, 2008 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, it could be worse

They could plan a game where he plays every position. I wouldn’t mind that if it was his “Last Hurrah”.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jun 17, 2008 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Frank Skeffington would approve. . ..

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Jun 17, 2008 7:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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