faking it

by lboros on Jun 16, 2008 8:54 AM EDT Comment 359 comments

i had lunch saturday w/ a work colleague and his family, and one of his daughters (11 years old) taught us all a simple card game called "bullshit." you deal out the entire deck; first person to play all his / her cards wins. whoever has the ace of spades plays it first to start the game, and then the player to his / her right has to play a 2, and the next person has to play a 3, etc etc; when you get up to king, you cycle back around to ace and keep going. every card is played face down, so the other players can’t see whether or not you’re bluffing --- and you have to bluff at some point, because there inevitably comes a play when you simply don’t have the card you need. e.g., you’re supposed to play a 8 but you don’t have one in your hand, so you just play a 3 or a jack or whatever and hope nobody calls you on it. opponents can call "bullshit" after any play if they think you’re bluffing, but if somebody calls you and you’re not bluffing then the accuser has to pick up all the cards played to date and add them to his / her hand. that’s a big deterrent, so if you’re a passable bluffer and you look a few moves ahead, you can get away with a lot of crap.

the cardinals are getting pretty good at playing bullshit. when, as so often happens these days, they don’t have a necessary card in their hand --- a starting pitcher, say; or a first baseman, a closer, a middle infielder, a left-handed reliever --- they just toss out whatever’s handy (doesn’t matter what, anything will do) and hope they don’t get called on it. some of you will think i’m making fun of the team or putting it down, but i mean this as a compliment. there is a certain skill to playing bullshit --- things you can do to manage your hand, minimize your bluffs, and keep the opposition guessing --- and the cardinals (who aren’t playing the game by choice) may have the knack for it. there’s also the possibility, as in every card game, that they’re winning more on luck than on merit, but i don’t want to go there. any team that has 10 pitchers plus albert pujols on the disabled list deserves credit for every win it can muster, even ones that come at least partially wrapped in fancy paper with a ribbon and bow. yesterday’s gift wasn’t quite as egregious as their win down a houston a week ago --- aside from the 8th inning, the cardinals played a solid game yesterday and deserved to win; molina literally sacrificed his body (not permanently thank god, but it was scary) for that victory. all the same, the tie should have carried over to the 11th inning, and the phillies had a distinct pitching edge at that point in the game --- lidge (0.93 era) and seanez (2.38) were still available, while the cards only had reyes, villone, and isringhausen left. (how long do you suppose that game would have had to go on before tony’d put isringhausen in to pitch? i almost think they’d rather send miles back to the mound than expose izzy to a do-or-die situation --- and dubious hometown fans --- in his first game back.)

but maybe the cardinals have been due for a little gift-wrapping. last month i noted that they stood last in the league in baserunners who reached on errors, or ROEs; their bad luck in that regard is evening out with a vengeance this month. they lead the league in ROEs during june, with 10 --- which is nearly as many as they had in april and may combined (13) --- and while they’re inching their way toward the middle of the pack in this regard (they now stand 13th in the league in ROEs), they still are owed a few favors by opposing defenders. so no need to apologize for the 10th-inning freebies; they had ’em coming.

the cards are hardly through playing bullshit; on the contrary, they’ll having to become ever more creative. the next move, due before the kc series opens tuesday, will be the addition of a 3d catcher for a few days while they make sure molina’s ok. bryan anderson isn’t on the 40-man and it would be foolhardy to burn an option year on him for stopgap purposes, so they’ll recall one of the johnsons (mark or gabe) and send out a pitcher. not sure which pitcher you send out, though --- it might end up being wellemeyer, who is scheduled to test his tender elbow in a bullpen session tuesday. if things don’t go well, imagine he’ll be bound for the dl. if the elbow passes muster, presumably boggs (who was lucky he only got tagged for 3 runs yesterday) or reyes will be the odd man out. the cards have 3 off days between now and the all-star break, which means they’ll be able to skip the 5th starter’s turn a couple of times; if they could find a way to elide the 4th starter as well and just get by with just looper, lohse, and pineiro, i’d like their chances better . . . . .

whatever; they’ll just have to bluff their way through. if they're still in this shape a month from now they might have to swing a trade, but the team is so clearly in need right now (and the trade deadline is so far away) that it's hard to see how they get favorable terms for a deal. dayn perry suggested the other day that the cards should consider trading rasmus and bryan anderson for cc sabathia (subscriber-only link); terrible idea in my opinion. i think they're best served to stand pat at least through the all-star break and reasses at that point, see who's healthy and how the standings look. as improbable as it may seem, this is a hot team. since losing to tampa bay 3-1 exactly a month ago today, the cards have gone on an 18-9 run that’s been far more impressive than the 19-11 spurt with which they opened the season --- tougher opposition, more road games, and an injury-depleted roster. they scored over 5 runs a game during that 18-9 segment and held opponents to 4.5 runs; if we discount friday night’s 20-run bruise from consideration, the cards’ per-game yield has been just over 4 runs a contest during the last 30 days.

i don’t see how they can sustain performance like that given the injury glut, but i (like most folks) have underestimated the club all year. baseball prospectus now gives them almost a 50-50 chance of making the playoffs --- a fine place to be with the summer just starting.

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You know, Larry

there’s a PG-rated version of that game but, as I’ve only played it a couple of times (I’m used to the R-rated version, as well), I forget the name. Is it bullcrap? I don’t think so. Anyway, that way you could avoid playing “bullshit” w/ 11 year olds. Pretty fun game.

With luck, Molina misses maybe the KC series at most and we only need a 3rd C for 3 games. Molina doesn’t have to go on the DL and Reyes or Boggs can be sent down and replaced w/ one of the Johnsons. They’re not good but, for 3 games, they wouldn’t have to be. Molina also should get a well-earned break over the All-Star break as he’s not likely to make the team (despite a very strong 1st half).

As for trades, I say the Cards should avoid them. There’s no way I want to be trading one of our young guys for some older SP. Let’s ride it out w/ what we’ve got. If it’s enough—great. If it’s not, at least we’re prepared for next year and beyond.

by chuckb on Jun 16, 2008 9:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

+1

If we ride what we got and fail. This team will only get better for next year.

If we bet the farm and fail. Next year is going to suck.

by Evilfrog on Jun 16, 2008 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Highly agree

We should play “the hard nine” across the rest of the season, aggressively promote within minors (and to the team as needed). Play every game as if it counts and see where we end up. But if we start to slide, we shouldn’t rush “emergency trades”.

Everyone leans on the buy low sell high aspect to trades, but we shouldn’t for a second forget the notion of never showing desperation as we lose all trading power.

We trade the farm for a win now strategy, we’ll be doing it with obvious depth issues from injuries and no team, regardless of GM would allow us to get something reasonable.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not on the trade boat either

it seems this fine is doing well by itself, along with Memphis

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

*this team is doing fine

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

we always called it bologna sandwich(still BS)

thats until we turned about 13 or 14 and though cursing was the coolest thing on the planet…cooler even than zach morris

by VolsnCards5 on Jun 16, 2008 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

liar!

who or what could be cooler than zach “the zach attack” morris? except for maybe parker lewis… dude seriously can’t lose.

by mattybobo on Jun 16, 2008 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

BS

We always just said “BS” around parents and such, in middle school…after that, parents don’t really care as much, right?

by stlfan on Jun 16, 2008 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK...

care about curse words being uttered…

by stlfan on Jun 16, 2008 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol

I was a master at that game when I was like 10. Of course I had two older brothers that didn’t “shield” such words and an uncle who wasn’t too concerned.

Now, I’ve switched to 7 card stud (and hi low), Razz, real life play and online.

Occasional Holdem tourney, mainly online.

And I still mutter bullshit, except I lose chips when I’m wrong, not gain cards

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I learned it

As BS—just the initials needed to be called out.

C70 at the Bat

by Cardinal70 on Jun 16, 2008 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

That’s how I learned it as well.

by saladdays on Jun 16, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i learned it as B.S.

and when i play with a younger crowd, I tell them it means “bologna sandwich.”

by soccerfreak on Jun 16, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I learned it when I was eleven

and they all told me it stood for ‘boy scouts’.

by Phizzle on Jun 16, 2008 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

When the teachers were around in elementary school

it was called “liar, liar”

Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!

I don't care about your fantasy team.

by stltrav09 on Jun 16, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I learned it as "I doubt it"

very clean in my family. I was sheltered

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on Jun 16, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I learnt it as a drinking game.

by Evilfrog on Jun 16, 2008 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I learned it as...

... “Cardinal’s medical staff report”.

by punditmoi on Jun 16, 2008 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think this injury to Molina will be a good test for the medical staff

Given the Cardinals experience in recent years with concussion injuries (Edmonds and knowledge of Matheny’s problems), they should be able to avoid the dumb mistakes the Mets have made with Ryan Church. In fact, given the nature of concussions, I think a preventative 15 day DL stint wouldn’t be the worst idea at all.

by JMedwick on Jun 16, 2008 9:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Concussions are nothing to jack around with…

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Jun 16, 2008 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Concussions are scary

They’re brain injuries, and we’ve already seen Mike Matheny have to retire because of them. Would hate to see Yadi take the same route by rushing him back too quickly.

by Yellow Dog on Jun 16, 2008 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jun 16, 2008 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Boggs

I thought he pitched better this game than the last game. Strikeouts were up and walks where down. Phillies are a very dangerous team. I mean, it wouldn’t surprise me if they scored 20 runs in a game…

Anyway. Boggs preformance there gives me up for the future. Like Big Dunc said. He just needs to refine his offspeed stuff before he is ready for the Majors. I have faith he can be a good starting pitcher at the Major league level.

Other good things about the game:

Ludwick continuing to roll. Glaus continuing to Homer. Ankiel starting to heat up. It’s the first time in awhile he has had a multi hit game. He hasn’t been hitting for average lately. But his last hits are 2 home runs; 2 doubles, and a triple.

by Evilfrog on Jun 16, 2008 9:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

+1

Phillies can make anyone look like fools, let alone a rookie. I think he did himself some justice yesterday and for a guy who didn’t prospect like Garcia, Perez et all has, I’m pleasantly surprised.

He can live off his arsenal if he was in the pen, but he does need a solid off speed pitch if he’s going to project to start. I think Tony is doing the right thing by not giving too many looks through the line up with any team so far, confidence and toolset both considered.

Also to note, I think this is the best thing for Glaus. Having followed him through a bit of his career he’s having probably one of his better years, and even in the slow start and lack of pop you could tell it wasn’t going to last forever. Allergies have a way of really making things hard. But you can tell the guy truly believes in the team concept, enjoys playing for us.

I don’t see him pressing with the injury woes, I see him excelling in them.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And props to Tony

for pulling the kid at exactly the right time.

by tinstl on Jun 16, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

excited about Boggs

whether or not he has a lot more time in the minors, I think he’ll be a regular Cardinal starter, maybe even next season (if not before)

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not a fan of the Sabathia proposal

simply because he’s a free agent after this season. He isn’t just any “older SP;” in fact, he’s not that old (27), it just seems like he is “older” because he arrived in the Show at a young age. If there was some reasonable certainty of being able to hold onto him after this year, I could see the deal as a matter of exchanging one asset for a different, more urgent one—that’s what front offices are for, and as events this year have shown, one can never have too much starting pitching. But with the free-agent situation, forget it; beyond this year, the effect would just be to exchange Raz and Anderson for two first-round draft choices, and they’re very unlikely to fetch players as good as the ones traded.

Who’s the “emergency catcher” on the major-league roster? The answer affects the decision whether to call up a Johnson or Anderson.

by StanTheManFan on Jun 16, 2008 10:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i think it may be miles

but don’t quote me on that..dave duncan maybe?

by VolsnCards5 on Jun 16, 2008 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it is

Miles is the emergency catcher, and will be if Molina is sidelined

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course it's Miles

Emergency SS, emergency reliever, and emergency catcher. That’s grit, baby.

by bgh on Jun 16, 2008 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Question is

if we’re ever up by ten runs again should we let Miles pitch so he keeps his arm up for endurance for the blow out games?

Secret Weapon II? Gulp :(

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and, apparently

emergency SS. Misplay on a DP grounder cost us at least 1 run, and maybe 2, yesterday. With 2 other SS’s on the roster, why he’s in there unless someone has died or gotten mauled by an incoming runner is absolutely beyond me.

by chuckb on Jun 16, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is jornalistic excellence

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on Jun 16, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Emergency Catcher...

I believe it is Miles, but I could be wrong on that—someone correct me if I am…

I don’t think you give up your two best position player prospects in a deal to get a pitcher who’s probably commanding Santana money in the offseason. If they were to sign Sabathia at $120 million over 6 years (and that’s generously low) they’d have about $30 million tied up between him and Carpenter on a payroll that’s probably not going to exceed $120 million any time soon. Probably not the best idea…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 16, 2008 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that and...

Sabathia doesn’t look all that good this year.

His whip hasn’t been this high in 4 years. His K:BB hasn’t been this low in 3 years. I know ERA isn’t a great indicator, but his ERA+ is below 100 (barely) for the first time ever.

I know he has been an ace pitcher in the past and is pretty young…but so was Dontrelle Willis for a year or two.

by stlfan on Jun 16, 2008 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And he's getting awfully fat for a 27 year old.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 16, 2008 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just for the record, his whole family is very tall and also very heavy.

CC has been quite the XXXL large his entire life. He is in much better shape than he appears. Honestly. Look at his IP totals for the last several years. You don’t toss that many innings if you aren’t in shape.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

generally, i agree with you, and i certainly do in sabathia's case,

but, this guy has certainly thrown his share of innings, and…

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 16, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ok

But there’s a flip side to that as well…

1. He’s still going pretty deep into games (6+ innings in most starts, even the bad ones)
2. Comparing him to Willis is completely unfounded—Sabathia has gotten progressively better throughout his career, and he won 20 games and the Cy for the AL last year. Willis has never been the pitcher that Sabathia is.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 16, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Willis had a hell of a 2004 season

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 16, 2008 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

2004?

I think you mean 2005, when he was 22-10 with a 151 ERA+ and 170 K’s. He hasn’t approached those numbers since, and has been in steady decline over the last two years. The Marlins were glad to unload his contract I’m sure.

Sabathia, on the other hand, was 19-7 with a 143 ERA+ and 209 K’s last year, put up an ERA+ of 141 in 2006, and his worst year of ERA+ is better than Willis’ the past two years. Not to mention that he’s on pace to to strike out over 200 hitters again this year. If you factor out his terrible start and his team’s sudden inability to score runs when he starts, his numbers for 2008 would look much better.

They are not comparable pitchers. Sabathia has been much better over the course of his career than Willis, excepting that one good season. Hey, Bud Smith had one good season too remember?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 16, 2008 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i'm not calling them comparable,

but Willis did have a Cy caliber season. Just one, but still…

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 16, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sabathia vs. Willis

The original poster stated that a reason to not trade for Sabathia was because Willis was good for a while, so Sabathia may be headed for a decline, in essence comparing them.

I agree that we shouldn’t go after him, but only because we couldn’t sign him long term and I don’t think giving up the prospects it would take to get him would be a postive move for the organization.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 16, 2008 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he began the season

with four consecutive starts in which he didn’t last longer than 5 1/3, gave up 4, 5, 9 and 9 earned runs, and only struck out 7 batters once; the other 3 games totaling 7 k’s. oh, yeah, he walked 2,3,4 and 5.

since then in 11 subsequent starts, he’s lasted at least 6, hasn’t given up more than 4 runs and only did that in 3 of those 11 games, struck out more than 7 in 7 of those games and has just pitched better.

nevertheless, i don’t like the deal, but not because c.c. isn’t producing. it’s more a question of too much to give up and his walk year status.

by sdesserman on Jun 16, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like a deal, just not that one

As you say, Sabathia has had just one bad month – this April – and has been nails since. He’s been unlucky in W-L, though.

I agree that Rasmus + Anderson is too much to give up, but what if it was Anderson + Jess Todd, a guy who is absolutely burning up the minors right now?

Also, I wouldn’t worry too much about Sabathia’s contract year status – we will have a lot of money to spend with several contracts coming off the books for ‘09. We should be able to make a competitive offer, and lock up a left-handed power prodigy without any significant injury history.

"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz

by taiko on Jun 16, 2008 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hate to say it but...you can't overpay CC and slight Carp....Not sure that CC will take what we offer.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 16, 2008 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jun 16, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

His FIP is right in line with the last three years

The only difference is he’s walked a bunch of batters at the beginning of the year…and when you’re working off of 1.38/2.06 BB/9 that shows up as a much bigger difference in K/BB than it actually is in terms of performance…and even then over the past 30 days it’s been right back in line at 5.71.

Unlike Willis, his velocity is exactly what it’s been for the last two years (of course there was a drop from ‘05-’06 but whatever).

I have no doubts that Sabathia is still a legitimate ace pitcher; at the same time, I severely doubt he’s worth trading Rasmus for in a mid-season deal.

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Jun 16, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

PS Fangraphs is the greatest thing ever...

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Jun 16, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree

I read the Perry piece in BP and I laughed out loud. Why on earth would anyone burn arguably their top 2 prospects for 3 months of Sabbathia? I don’t think anyone of sound mind and body thinks that they would be able/willing to resign him after the season for the 5/100 range its going to take…

As a matter of fact, I have a question:

If it were guaranteed that the cardinals would make the playoffs this year if they traded Rasmus and Anderson for Sabbathia, would you do it?

I vote no. I’ll take my chances with what we’ve got…at least for now.

by farley503 on Jun 16, 2008 10:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yes.

Trade Rasmus & Anderson for Sabathia.
Boomer.

by glamboomer on Jun 16, 2008 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

please don't Mo

please. please dont’ trade rasmus for sabathia. or anyone.

by infallibleopiniongenerator on Jun 16, 2008 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

would i trade colby & bryan

NO WAY!!!!

A man's got to know his limitations

by stlsports on Jun 16, 2008 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No way.

A guarantee that the Cardinals would win the World Series, however, makes it a very different question …

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 16, 2008 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if they're gonna make a run at the series ....

they better hope they have enough left over to get Brian Roberts also

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 16, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rampant trade rumor mongering

OK – so I was blowing off work and saw this line over at sportsline.com

More trade talk: A major league executive said Sunday that the Blue Jays are shopping A.J. Burnett, but that they’re looking for a young outfielder (preferably left-handed hitting) in return.

We wouldn’t have any of those would we?

by birdo rojo on Jun 16, 2008 10:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

um

Duncan?

by Evilfrog on Jun 16, 2008 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

would anyone want Duncan right now?

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Doubtfull

Couldn’t hurt to ask though.

by Evilfrog on Jun 16, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not really

Trading him at this point is the epitome of a sell low approach. Doesn’t necessarily make it a bad idea, but there won’t be much value to be gained in dealing him other than perhaps the opportunity cost of others being blocked by keeping him.

by Merry CRasmus on Jun 16, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

at least they could ship him out

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We don't even want him...the problem with earmarking players for trades is that usually those

are the ones that are sucking and really who wants a sucky player so by the time they get good again we don’t want to trade him….

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 16, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I haven't paid attention

but how happy have they been with Rolen, and while not directly related – Eck?

If they view both ex Cards as positives they may like to work with us again.

Dunno how I feel about going for AJ though.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Young and Younger

Age young or MLB experience (i.e. under control) young? Because, frankly, neither Skippy, Dunc, nor Ankiel are spring chickens.

by bgh on Jun 16, 2008 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know who they want.

And my answer is still, “Um, Duncan?”

by Evilfrog on Jun 16, 2008 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll pass on Burnett...

don’t we have enough pitchers with a history of arm problems? Carp, Mulder, Clement, Pineiro….enough is enough. Burnett has only started at least 28 games twice in his whole career. I wouldn’t condone any Rasmus deal, but Sabathia has made at least 28 starts every season and has a Cy Young to boot.

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 16, 2008 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Burnett also has a bit of an "attitude" problem.....

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Attitudes can be a reflection on the environment just as much as it can be on the person. Not arguing for AJ, I personally don’t have confidence in the medical staff to take a chance, but there’s an argument that a change of scenery could be the best prescription for “tude” issues, regardless if they’re real or media hyped.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually, I'm referring to the ugly way he ended up leaving the Marlins.....

and he does have the folks in Toronto in an uproar right now. Who knows?

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

While the attitude problem is a good point...

It wouldn’t deter me from acquiring him. The fact that the cards are already paying 25 million to pitchers who are hurt or recovering from injuries, would certainly stray me away from anyone who has had an injury history such as burnett’s. Not to mention that if he did get hurt, he’d be relying on George “The Butcher” Paletta for his medical care.

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 16, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I'm not saying acquire someone or don't because of a reputation of attitude problems.

A whole bunch of things go into that, including the key question of why is there a problem. You usually find a whole bunch of people at fault when you look deeper. But he’s been hurt, and hurt badly. He annually ends up on the disabled list.. He is committed to the top dollar too. The injuries make him not worth it…..so I’d pass. Except maybe you could rent a 1/2 season by offering the unwanted one…....

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If we're going to dabble in the "questionable fitness" arena

I’d rather look into Harden as opposed to Burnett, but that’s just me.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sorry, that was a reply to ‘Burns :)

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah, Rich Harden.....

Just so you know before you get all dreamy eyed, Rich Harden DOES NOT PITCH TO CONTACT. He is a poor fit here…....

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

with his toolset

he doesn’t have too. and if you look at the prospects and a addition to the starters, it’s not as if that is the only style we’re accepting.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

please no Harden...

How about we just stay away from all injury-prone pitchers?...Like I said before…Paletta is a BUTCHER!

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 16, 2008 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sigh

Not this Paletta thing again…

by saladdays on Jun 16, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

They don't play that game with veterans

they just don’t. They traded for several strikeout pitchers.

But Harden probably is a bad idea. We need a workhorse to stabilize things more than anything.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 16, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i can see Harden's career...

Going down Mark Prior Road and making it’s final stop at Alan Benes Ave. I’d stay away.

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 16, 2008 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

the thing about Harden

is that he makes 4.5M this year and 7M next year, so even if he only starts 15 times for you, he isn’t a huge burden.

OTOH, if you get to the playoffs or need to win a big game, I can think of few pitchers I’d rather give the ball to…

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 16, 2008 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Something weird about Harden is that

with all of the time he has missed, no one has been able to figure out what the problem is….the elbow and shoulder always check out as “structurally sound”

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe he hates Billy Beane and wants out of Oakland..

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 16, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No

Their pitchers usually get hurt after they get traded :P

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 16, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

except

That Harden seems to fall in the “Kevin Mitchell” injury category, i.e. freak injuries not related to arm stress.

He really hasn’t had arm problems like Prior or Benes, and whenever he’s on the mound he’s got the same filthy stuff—you couldn’t say that about Prior and Benes after their injuries.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 16, 2008 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

which is

why I leaned on the issue of injuries and AJ.

Harden could end up being something minor mechanical that’s not being picked up, or it could be someone who needs a lighter workload to protect.

But Harden at 80% is better than anyone we started the season with aside from Waino, and that would be closer than you may think.

Seems perfect if we’re lookin’ for a rental, worst case we use him carefully through the rest of the season, see how the prospects look and then judge on the extension.

He’s “cheap” because he’s got durability issues, but he’s losing nothing off his toolset. If he finds a groove where he’s not injured, that cheapness really personifies itself.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Problem is

We have neither a good medical staff or a pitching coach that understands injury risk and how to manage it.

Picking up an injury prone player hoping to heal him doesn’t seem like a good strategy for our team.

by DriverZn on Jun 16, 2008 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

fair enough

and when Harden was talked about in one of the fan posts I lamented about lack of confidence in the medical staff.

However, while lost a bit up in this particular thread I did try to qualify my post with “if we’re talking about AJ” who is a injury risk player himself.

If AJ is a target, Harden should be too.

But I can too make the case that neither would be something we need to endure

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree with your last logic

I think he could potentially be a decent addition, at the right price. Although, given his profile and the fact the Jay’s aren’t completely out of it I’m not sure the right price will be achievable.

by birdo rojo on Jun 16, 2008 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i'd rather see...

them go after Maddux or Aaron Cook. Maddux would be a low cost rent-a-hall-of-famer (presumably…maybe give them Freese back). Cook could be re-signed for a more reasonable figure than what Sabathia is gonna get. Burnett would still be a 12 Million dollar question mark through 2010, so even if you could get him for the “unwanted one” or even less, it wouldn’t be worth it.

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 16, 2008 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

unless ...

you assume burnett would opt out…which i don’t think would be wise for him

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 16, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cook's contract

Aaron Cook just signed a 3 year deal (starting next season) with a mutual option for 2012. It is for 10 million per year. I doubt the Rockies would be looking to move the guy they just signed long term. (link: http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/colorado-rockies.html)

I do like the idea of Maddux. He can’t cost too much, Busch III is a big park like SD (where he has pitched very well: .594 OPS against and 1.70 ERA in 2008). Plus there is the added bonus of Maddux being like a second pitching coach.

by indakind on Jun 16, 2008 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dont get your hopes up

Because Greg Maddux isn’t going to be a Cardinal.

by Tackle Box on Jun 16, 2008 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why?

SD is horrible, and has no need for a dude that’s going to retire, and St. L needs a guy to eat innings at a relatively low cost. it makes some sense on both sides.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 16, 2008 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

also...

at this point in his career I doubt Maddux wants to stick around on a celler dweller when he could go to a contender

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 16, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, if you take Mr. Maddux at his word,

right now, being on a team not far from his home is much more important to him. He has full no trade protection, has said he’s retiring after this season, and loves being part of the San Diego staff. Maybe he means it. He’s been part of the high pressure pennant contenders in the past; maybe at this stage he really does just want to pitch in a relaxed atmosphere in a place he enjoys.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

but then again

why piss off your teammates by saying you want to go, unless you know a trade has already been made? it seems like he’d say he wants to stay no matter what. he’s definitely worth inquiring about.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 16, 2008 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

For what it's worth

Im trying to get my company to trade me to some other company in San Diego.

by Evilfrog on Jun 16, 2008 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe.

But Maddux strikes me as the kind of guy who wouldn’t say anything at all about wanting to stay if he secretly didn’t.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i guess he has a no-trade

but wouldn’t he want to pitch for a contender?

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 16, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

People like saying Maddux isn't going to be a Cardinal

I always love matter of fact statements like that. Unless Maddux himself signs up on VEB and makes that statement, no one really knows what he thinks.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just the THOUGHT

of Maddux of the Cardinals facing Edmonds of the Cubs makes my head explode!

Reminds me of a “Sports Illustrated” painting of Sal “The Barber” Maglie of the Dodgers glaring at Jackie Robinson of the Giants, leading off first. (Robinson retired rather than accept a trade to the hated Giants… Maglie did pitch for both the Giants and Dodgers, though…)

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 16, 2008 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it might make me do that too

that is why I prefer to think of Maddux as a Brave

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

my bad...

wasn’t aware of the cook extension, I only referenced him because his name is getting tossed around in ESPN’s rumor section

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 16, 2008 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

LH outfielder

Skippy?

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

by showmejoe on Jun 16, 2008 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Before anyone starts the stupid comments

I was joking!

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

by showmejoe on Jun 16, 2008 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

actually that isn't a horrible idea. he is playing pretty well to his strengths.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 16, 2008 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think they would ask for Rasmus...

We know they like Cody Hearther. Shame he isn’t tearing it up.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 16, 2008 10:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Jay

John Jay has morphed back into a CF prospect who is blocked by Rasmus. The guy is ripping it up in Springfield this year. If a team is looking for a CFer, this guy might entice a few teams. The only problem is that to enhance his trade value, we need to get Jay to Memphis but there sits Mr. Rasmus. We are developing some nice trade bait in the minors.

by jjray on Jun 16, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's easy to fix

call up Colby…I said it was easy to fix, I didn’t say i wouldn’t catch grief for saying it

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe sending Ank for Burnett would work...

I would hate to see him go but I think Ramsus might be easier to control.

Hell maybe that is what Mo has been doing all year is showcasing Rick. No question about his glove or his power just his consistency.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 16, 2008 10:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

My gut always turns a little when I think about seeing Rick going somewhere else.

Not just for our sake, but for his as well. Though it depends on which Rick we’re going to see negotiating. Our Rick, or Boras represented Rick. I don’t know if Scott is really going to screw us with Rick as I think Rick will want to stay here, here’s to hoping he does.

He’s still got a developing bat and could very well get better and better in the next couple of years. Rick’s also got to consider all of the peripherals to the situation. He’s media protected here, it’s a low stress (as low as MLB can be) for him, he’s a fan favorite and has a great story.

Even when you consider the future you’d have probably the best glove in RF in the Majors (he’s certainly one of the better CF as it is) a bat that can still get better, and a possibility of having him as a lifelong Cardinal.

Hopefully both sides are reasonable when it comes to the talks, because it could be a win-win.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

hate to say it

but I’d rather have Ank in center than Rasmus, top prospect be damned.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yesterday's news.

Had a healthy discussion about the Sabathia trade rumor yesterday.
Scroll down to the middle there; you’ll see it.

Again, I am completely for the Cardinals trading Rasmus / Anderson for Sabathia.

Boomer.

by glamboomer on Jun 16, 2008 10:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Completely AGAINST

Why mortgage the future for an expensive pitcher of questionable conditioning and injury risk?

You got one of those 5 year ARMs with no money down on a $500k house, didn’t you? C’mon, admit it….::) j/k

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Jun 16, 2008 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

no way

not only is cc expensive, he’s expansive as well…he’s the pitcher that signs 5/100 as a fa, then dl’s for 4.5 years.
absolutely,positively,no way!!

A man's got to know his limitations

by stlsports on Jun 16, 2008 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

has he been injury prone?

on what do you base this supposition?

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

CC has not been injury prone....

but Mike Hampton wasn’t either….

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

nail on the head

that is why you don’t give up top prospects(much less two) for pitchers.
Seriously, have some people learned nothing from the Mulder trade?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I learned something from the Mulder trade

But I also learned a lot about the Diamondback’s trade for Randy Johnson. That worked out OK. You can’t blindly throw prospects for pitchers, but in the right case, at the right price the deals can work.

by birdo rojo on Jun 16, 2008 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

do you mean the one that traded him BACK to the Diamondbacks

The Diamondbacks signed Johnson as a free agent after the 1998 season. If the Cards can get C.C. for the same 4yr/53M contract I might jump on that bandwagon. I still think trading Colby for a pitcher is a mistake.
Othewise they paid Alberto Gonzalez, Ross Ohlendorf, Steven Jackson, and Luis Vizcaino for 8 wins in a year and a half. I don’t know if that is a good trade or not.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right

Forgot he was a free agent signing when they won the series.

Most people are NOT saying that we should give up Rasmus for him – but that there is a package that likely includes Anderson and one or two other pieces that would be attractive and not get us laughed off the phone by Cleveland.

by birdo rojo on Jun 16, 2008 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

understandable

I think most people overvalue what other teams think of our prospects. For Cleveland to trade C.C. I would think it would take two of our top three prospects. Any combination of Rasmus/Anderson/Garcia is too high in my opinion.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

been away from computer

so it was said by someone else…
there is a list of pitchers, who after signing HUGE deals, get hurt very quickly,and never pan out…

A man's got to know his limitations

by stlsports on Jun 16, 2008 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

three off of the top of my head, Carl Pavano, Mike Hampton, Darren Driefort.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Zito

something isn’t tickin’ right

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Add Kevin Brown to the list

And I’m in favor of making a REASONABLE (not Rasmus and Anderson) trade for CC!

by birdo rojo on Jun 16, 2008 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jason Schmidt?

by Ray Lankford on Jun 16, 2008 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Carpenter

by soccerfreak on Jun 17, 2008 3:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Zing!

that really hurts to have Carp on that list, but you do deserve the zing

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

NO Thanks

You want CC that bad? By all means hop into the free agent talks at the end of the year. But losing two MLB prospects for a short term rental is absurd.

I’ll leave the fitness arguments alone as you can argue both sides, as that thread did. However, we’re still a midmarket team. We still have bat concerns, we still have Albert’s contract up in what, 3 years? We have three projected starters on their way – at least.

As dad used to say, doing anything CC related is “asking for punishment”. The money could be used in so many more areas.

And if you want to make the argument that we need CC for the post season, I’ll point to the ‘06 Cards, or I’ll point to the ‘07 Indians as reasons why it’s still not a guarantee with him on the roster.

In no reasonable rationale is going for CC on a rental using Razza and Anderson as the chips a good idea, no matter how many times you bake it.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and with his numbers suffering going into a FA year, you have to wonder… or well, I do.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

His numbers are up

he’s been one of the best pitchers in the AL over the last 2 months.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 16, 2008 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

his numbers aren’t truely reflective of what he’s done, just thinking of his numbers and the lethargic offenses he’s faced.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

heck

he’s one of the best pitchers in baseball, right?

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Anybody else see/hear/confirm the rumor

the Cubs were going to move to get CC.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/14/AR2008061401500.html

by gocards62 on Jun 16, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That article says nothing

except, “the cubs are the team who should give everything to get C.C.” Which is absolutley true. The cubs are built to win THIS YEAR. They are going to go into decline in the next few years as all of their players approach 40 (okay, that might be a little bit of an exageration, but still..).

What that article doesn’t adress is, who can they give up? In my opinion, they don’t have the goods. Granted, if the Cards, Yankees, Red Sox or others decide they don’t want C.C. for all the reasons stated above, and the Indians are desprate to move him, then the asking price goes down. Obviously.

But, if there is any type of bidding war with a team that has any semblence of a farm system, then the cubs really don’t have a shot. Their package would have to start with Sean Gallagher, but after that you’d have to say Donaldson and Colvin? And I don’t think thats a good enough deal. I guess you could throw in Cedeno and/or Patterson. But I’m not exactly sold on either one of those guys especially when they’ve both had multiple MLB experience with neither really tearing anything up. Then there’s Rich Hill, who most cub fans still think is a great prospect. Problem is, he’s 28 and has failed like 3 or 4 times at the major league level. I wouldn’t want him…you?

They also have Jeff Smardzja (or however you spell that), but they gave him a huge contract and I think a no-trade clause. They also have the greatest hitter ever drafted (Josh Vitters) even though he’s only played about 10 minor league games in his life (and hasn’t played since April) and is hitting under .200.

by Tackle Box on Jun 16, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Great post

I think the Cards would be able to match anything the Cubs threw out there – and at a price that might make sense. I’d put Anderson alone above anyone you listed – I’d be OK with Anderson and a piece or to for CC.

by birdo rojo on Jun 16, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You might be okay

with Anderson, but I doubt that would be enough for Antonetti.

by Red in Chicago on Jun 16, 2008 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why is everyone so quick to offer Anderson?

A good hitting catching prospect? I know he’s considered blocked by Yadi. Okay. Except Yadi in his young career has lost time to a broken bone, a broken knee, and now he has a mild concussion. And we are looking at Jason LaRue as our starter? Or Mark Johnson? You know, we may actually end up needing him on our own team. I hope he’s not moved any time soon. I really do….

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I definitely don't want to give him up

But for CC? I’d personally pitch in for his ticket to Cleveland.

by birdo rojo on Jun 16, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

I would love to see Anderson in a birds uni but Yadi seems to be hitting at a more mature level and Arni Cruz very soon will start to develop as a hitting backstop. He seems to be heating up.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 16, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Except Anderson already has started to develop into a hitting backstop.

There is no shame in having a Brian McCann, Russell Martin type playing on your team. Developing good catchers is not easy-I mean really, look at some of the big league catchers. A lot of them aren’t very good…..and the players available for back up are even worse…..I think it’s best to keep him for now. I really do.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I could go either way but at least we have depth. Nice problem to have.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 16, 2008 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

goodness

This is like every post for the last 3 days in which i have agreed with Jill.
I will just say ditto

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wowww-three days in a row.....

Nice.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cruz has to perform at a higher level than A ball

before I will be sold on his ability to hit at the major league level. My favorite non-Colby prospect is Kozma, and just because he is hitting in A ball does not make me sure he will hit in the majors.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Correction

My favorite non-Colby/Jaime prospect

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

patterson

hasn’t had virtually any MLB experience. He’s had a total of 22 ABs at the major league level

by Glowsticks on Jun 16, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I guess you're right

he’s been up a couple of times I think, but Lou doesn’t want to play him. I guess he just likes Theriot and Fontenot better for some reason.

by Tackle Box on Jun 16, 2008 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't give more than one of them at most unless Cleveland wants to send us a bag of money

to help with trying to sign CC.

Anderson and others at most.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 16, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thank god you aren't John Mozeliak

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jun 16, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Only pitchers i'd consider putting Rasmus in a trade for...

Lincecum, King Felix, Scott Kazmir

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jun 16, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like all 3 of em

but they are all injury risks too, Lincecum is the only one who hasn’t been hurt yet, right?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lincecum has not been hurt..

He’s awesome. He’ll be a littler Pedro. He’ll break when he breaks, but you are going to see some great pitching until that happens…..The way he uses his whole body probably keeps him in a lower risk catagory. He’d be the first guy I’d pick if I was building a staff.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Um ... are you sure

glamboomer ISN’T Mozeliak?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 16, 2008 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was merely stating that one of the two would be more than enough for CC

only…and I mean only way I would even consider both would be for a 10 to 20 million along with CC to help pay for his new contract and that would never happen because that would defeat the whole purpose for Cleveland. So I wasn’t serious.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 16, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wasn't replying to you :P

I would gladly give up Anderson + Jay + Salas for CC (and the trade would depend on us getting an extension hammered out)

I would not give up Rasmus for CC

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jun 16, 2008 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wasn't angry I was just chatting. Sorry if I misunderstood these strings gett all messed up when

you think you have replied it gets bounced by each next reply until you can’t tell what is what.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 16, 2008 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Salas?

Let’s see how he pans out in Memphis and possibly with the Cards first before we go on the trade bait routine.

The way he’s sheer dominating doesn’t seem like it’s a wise idea to trade a true prospect for a pitcher without any true cost control/contract control.

Salas could very well be that diamond in the rough, I’d hate to see him gone and regret all of that missing cost controlled lovin’ down the road

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

no no no

two potential above average everyday players for someone who will play at most every 5th day (if he is healthy all year, which becomes less likely every year)

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jun 16, 2008 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

larry, nice vocab word

i had never even heard of the word “elide” before, but sure enough, dictionary.com has it.
as for sabathia… would be nice to have him if the price was right, obviously… but a team like the cubs, in a well-funded win-now mode, would be hard to outdo.

by mattybobo on Jun 16, 2008 11:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

yeah

I was admiring the use of elide as well

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mentality of a winner

I love using statistics as a way of analyzing baseball, but also believe that there are things that statistical analysis cannot account for, such as a team’s mentality. I offer up the 2006, 2007, and 2008 St. Louis Cardinals. Does anyone else see us fighting tooth and nail to mount comebacks, hang on to slim leads, or grind out an extra inning win in the types of games that we’d have undoubtedly lost last season or in the second half of 2006?

by bgh on Jun 16, 2008 11:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

+1

There is something about this team, that statistics cannot measure…I am as proud of this team as I have been of any Cardinal team the past 10 years or so.

by tbell61 on Jun 16, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

me too

this team (and the other previous two) have been very tenacious. and so has their D (sorry, couldn’t resist)

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

o/t...

a couple quick observations…

Jim Edmonds is tearing it up as a Cub (.309 14 RBI in 22 games)

Troy Glaus is outperforming Scott Rolen offensively and fielding pct. and range factor are nearly identical

Skip Schumaker is a far better lead-off hitter than David Eckstein

Kyle Lohse and Todd Wellemeyer > Kip Wells and Anthony Reyes

Cesar Izturis has a way better glove and arm than Eckstein, but is still along with Kennedy (as predicted by all of us here at VEB – except Cardswin), one of the worst hitters in the league

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 16, 2008 11:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

edmonds success.

man, is that irritating. it’s about time for him to have a nagging injury isn’t it?

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Jun 16, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i'd say so...

but I’d hate to see that happen to Jimmy. I’m just gonna hope that curse kicks into effect sometime soon.

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 16, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, how could you?

I’m happy things are working out for him…..I’m sure he has nagging injuries still. They just aren’t bothering him enough to effect his play. I would like to see him have a decent season-even if it is with the Cubs-the man still wanted to play; they gave him the chance. No. It’s bad karma to wish injury trouble on anyone-especially Jimmy…...let him end his career in a blaze of glory.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I'd rather see him do well and the rest of that team fall apart.

Honestly, I want Jimmy to do well and maybe help him solidify his HOF credentials a bit more. The rest of the team can go to hell.

by mattisnotfrench on Jun 16, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

tongue-in-cheek

of course. i was just pointing out that he had trouble staying healthy for us. my disdain for the cubs runs deep, but i wish him no ill will – just the cubs.
btw, Jimmy had a quote the other day that sometimes he forgets that he isn’t in st louis anymore. not sure how to interpret that comment… but it struck me that a non-cardinal uni probably feels just as strange for him as it does to us fans.

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Jun 16, 2008 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Okay.....he sure had trouble staying healthy the last few years here.

Tongue-in-cheek doesn’t always come across as well as foot-in-mouth. Cub hatred is pretty strong around here sometimes…..and well, Jimmy is one of them now.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ya chase a WS ring with a rival of a team that has been your mainstay, you deserve everything you get. but any physical ill will should be well left alone, because you know…

Karma is a BAMF

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Never ever wish injury on a player. Any player. For any reason. You are correct.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeppers

I am not really caring about the nicities surrounding JEd , he was, and ( in the future) will be my all-time favorite Cardinal. It isn’t just for the other version of the Crabman I watch My Name is Earl; I also watch it to learn to repect the Karmic implications of behavior.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

IMO

the crowd doesn’t need to boo, I personally won’t cheer.

Best case scenario when we see him under the arches soon would be dead silent, near cricket chirping silent.

Boy gets too fired up from hecklers

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i don't care who the player is

i will not cheer for him if he’s wearing that jersey. and jimmy baseball was my favorite Cardinal.

i won’t boo him. but i damn sure won’t cheer or clap for him. not when he’s wearing that jersey.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jun 16, 2008 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I will Boo, he is a Cub now, I boo cubs

I stand by what I said the other day. His first at bat he should get a standing O, every other time up he should be booed voraciously

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it forgot to post the part

“for everything he has done for us”

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i'd have to swallow a lot of pride

to give him an O on the first at bat. I’d rather sit quietly I think, we’ll see what the gut says when they do

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that was my plan when he was going to come back

as a Padre, I am going to stick by it. Jimmy was one of the three main cogs of the best run of Cardinal baseball I have ever seen, he deserves a standing O.
He also deserves a boo that comes deep down from the boughs of hell!
Too dramatic?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

giving a player who's wearing that jersey a standing O

is against every thing i believe in.

i loved jimmy hollywood. but i just can’t do it.

i just cant.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jun 16, 2008 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I will have to close my eyes

but I will try to do it

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

which is why I’d like to see the pure silence routine.

You’d think in a full sellout and all of the sudden it goes dead quiet his entire at bat would really freak him out.

Start him off on that note, then drill the rest of the game, sounds like fun to me.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I may be swayed

if they “accidentally” put up Jimmy in a cards uni when they announce him on the jumbo.

It’ll feel like old times, for a second.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Karma for who?

Or whom, really. It’s not Edmond’s fault he’s not a Cardinal. The Cardinals are the ones that dumped him. If he had a choice, he’d still be here.

Start Ludwick

by DiscoJer on Jun 17, 2008 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If by dumped,

you mean, granted his request to be traded; then yes, he was dumped by the Cards.

Remember, he didnt want to accept a diminished role / pos switch to RF on the Cards, and thats what they were offering. He told them to trade him if that was the case. Request granted.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on Jun 17, 2008 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cubs Fans Feel Funny About It Too

If you look at Bleed Cubbie Blue, there have been a lot of funny comments about how Cubs fans basically still consider Jed a Cardinal and have trouble rooting for him.

So the awkwardness goes both ways.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Jun 16, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Edmonds is hitting .230

hardly tearing it up

though he has been better as of late

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jun 16, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My mistake - that's combined with his SD numbers, he is tearing it up with the Cubs

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on Jun 16, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wish

He’d done all of this for the Padres. That wouldn’t have been so bad.

by tinstl on Jun 16, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+infinity

by Phizzle on Jun 16, 2008 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

nah c'mon

I want to beat the cubs with all of our injuries, and them having little to none. that way, there can be no doubt…

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Despite his surging numbers, I'm not losing any sleep

I wouldn’t have him back if it meant losing our current high-caliber CF. I’ll take Ank over Jed all day long.

less dunca(i)n', more ludwickin'

by bjork24 on Jun 16, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't really want to disagree with you there

but hell, the cold dead body of Christy Mathewson and either Lohse and Welleymeyer would have been better than the combo of Kip and Reyes (and that is not a put down of Anthony).

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

faking it is fine

winning two of three in a series where you’re outscored 28-12 is better than being swept in a series where you’re outscored 15-12. i agree with bgh above, it’s a credit to the team’s mentality at this stage. let’s hope they can keep it up for the rest of the season, because even more tough times are ahead.

as far as the rasmus/anderson for sabathia idea, meh. i don’t think it would be a catastrophically awful trade per se; it’s a walt jocketty trade-’n-sign special. rasmus and anderson are still prospects and still quite young, and while they are likely to achieve success in the major leagues, the degree of that success is yet unknown and also dependent on a number of organizational factors. and yes, sabathia’s overall statistics are down this season, but ever since his awful first few starts he’s been solid as ever. also, people tend to forget the draft picks we’d get if we weren’t able to sign c.c. in the offseason – so it wouldn’t just be a rental. the question is whether the value of these picks (and a half-season of sabathia) could exceed that of anderson and rasmus in the long run. i’d say it’s somewhat unlikely, but more likely than a lot of folks on here might think.

however, i agree with lboros in that we should stand pat for a few weeks and then evaluate possible trade options. here’s hoping welly gets back to his old ways – if that takes a DL stint to rest the elbow, by all means, let’s do it.

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on Jun 16, 2008 12:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

yeah, if mo can talk them down to

something like Anderson, Jay and Hawksworth, that’s probably a good trade, or at least worth thinking about.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 16, 2008 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hawksworth?!?

Do you really think that Hawksworth has any value whatsoever? The Cards would have to do better than that.

If Mo seriously thinks about trading Rasmus and Anderson for a CC Summer Rental then he does not deserve to continue manning the GM post.

The Indians really need hitters wherever they can find them. I propose a trade of Allen Craig, Jon Jay, and Kenny Maiques.

by indakind on Jun 16, 2008 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

just saying some quasi-ready AAA pitcher, as they'd problably want a pitching replacement in the medium term

hell, Reyes in the package makes some sense.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 16, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

perhaps...

Anthony Reyes? Wouldn’t any team rather have him than Hawksworth?

by chuckb on Jun 16, 2008 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yes

i was more thinking the cost to us, rather than the desirability to them.

Reyes, Jay, Anderson is a decent package that wouldn’t kill our system, if Mo feels he can sign Sabathia [likely not].

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 16, 2008 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

does sabathia have to be signed?

he’ll almost certainly be a type a free agent, likely resulting in two picks at or near the top of the draft. to me, that’s almost more desirable than signing him at $20 mil per year, assuming we don’t completely glut the farm for him.

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on Jun 16, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Then, what's the point of a deal?

This team, surprises aside, isn’t really in a ‘win now’ mode, and even two first rounders aren’t locks to develop to AAA prospects of the Rasmus/Anderson/Reyes variety.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 16, 2008 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

right

Rasmus and Anderson for a couple of draft picks we hope might be able to be as good as Colby and Bryan?...and 3 months of someone who might be able to help the team get in the playoffs?
That is an awful lot for prospects really close to being ready for the bigs.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i think people seriously underestimate how hard drafting is

Look at some old drafts: ‘84. 31 dudes drafted ahead of Greg Maddux. McGwire is certainly understandable, but aside from that, Jay Payton was the best of them, before Maddux went in the second round. That’s an extreme example, but even in other drafts, such a comparitively few number of the high picks work out. it’s really not the nfl draft.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 16, 2008 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The #1 overall draft picks since 1990 (just a year I pulled out of my ass)

Chipper Jones, Brien Taylor, Phil Nevin, AROD, Paul Wilson, Darrin Erstad, Kris Benson, Matt Anderson, Pat Burrell, Josh Hamilton, Adrian Gonzalez, Joe Mauer, Bryan Bullington, Delmon Young, Matt Bush, Justin Upton, Luke Hochevar, David Price, Tim Beckham.

I think that is the definition of the draft being hit and miss.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jun 16, 2008 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like that package and think it would be reasonable for Cleveland as well.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 16, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ha!

Include Reyes? In a trade? Um, that ’s been the talk for quite some time. Except they never do it and I truly don’t understand Mr. Mozeliak’s thinking on this…...

I think that he’ll be here until baseball laws say they have to free him from the organization, or they leave him in the minors until he blows out his shoulder, elbow,or brains.

I was so sure he was leaving with the Phillies yesterday…..has anyone checked to make sure he’s actually still here?

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

How far along with his child are you now? Gotta be about full term by now.

by SoonerfanTU on Jun 16, 2008 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Huh? What? No. I'm rather old for that.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Figure of speech

and I enjoyed it, SfTU…

However, jill has a point. A-Rey’s career is in danger of dying the death of a thousand cuts, and I don’t mean surgery.

by StanTheManFan on Jun 16, 2008 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, I didn't think it was very funny.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't think so either

if jillsinmo was named joesinmo people wouldn’t keep making the post about having Reyes kid. They would just think he was a zealous Reyes fan.
I think Jill’s comments deserve the same respect as anyone elses on here. We all go crazy sometimes.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

She goes overboard.....

Every day. Same stuff. Duncan hates Reyes. TLR hates Reyes. Mo hates Reyes.

NOBODY hates Reyes. He isn’t a very good pitcher at the MLB level right now, but that doesn’t mean he is worthless. He has talent. You don’t just give that away, b/c it hurts Jill’s feelings that Reyes isn’t getting more of a chance than he’s already received.

by SoonerfanTU on Jun 16, 2008 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

your comment was out of line

by lboros on Jun 16, 2008 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you could say the same thing

about a half dozen other people on here. Go read the community guidelines again please. You attack the opinion, not the person

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i have to say, i may not agree with everything jills says, but

there is absolutely no reason to treat her without respect as you did soonerfan

if you dont like her opinion on reyes, ignore it

making a comment like you did, even if it was in jest, is at the very least intolerable, and at most slanderous

you have been a member of this site since last october, you should have had plenty of time to read the guidelines, but you obviously have not because you would have known that was out of line, as lboros pointed out above

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jun 16, 2008 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

also to matty

sadly i agree that if it was a joe instead of a jill, people might not be so quick to judge

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jun 16, 2008 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Slanderous?

Puh-lease. I’ve seen very similar comments made, in a joking way. Nobody on here actually thinks she is pregnant with Reyes’ kid. Maybe if she posted about something other than Reyes, she wouldn’t get the jokes she does. I’m not the only one that has made one.

by SoonerfanTU on Jun 17, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I do post about other things.

Just so you know, I was offended. I’ll just ask you nicely please don’t do it again…..

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 17, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kenny Maiques?...

he’s got about as much value as Hawksworth right now. Substitute Boggs or Motte in that Burnett deal and the Jays might bite. Although, I wouldn’t condone giving up any of the top 5 picks for burnett

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 16, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sorry...that should say prospects, not picks

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 16, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If hawks doesn't work then why don't you suggest another pitcher that would?

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 16, 2008 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i think

seriously considering all trade possibilities is part of the responsibilities of a GM. if mozeliak didn’t consider a move like that – whether or not he made the move – i’d then say he isn’t doing his job.

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on Jun 16, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am kinda wishing they would trade Craig or Freese

or better yet, move one to 2B…ok, i won’t go there again. Doesn’t Wallace at least make one of them expendable

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That trade

really doesn’t seem like it would happen. We have to give up value for value, even short-term value. I would think discussions would start and end with Jaime Garcia. No thanks.

"because at the end of the day they still are the Chicago Cubs"

by rockin the red on Jun 16, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

about the scoring differential

it has to be quite disheartening for the phils to score at will and friday night, then lose two straight 1-run games to the same shaky pitching staff. – especially with the huge number of stranded runner they had yesterday.

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Jun 16, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yup

i work with a guy who’s a huge phils fan (can’t say i don’t root for them either, unless they’re playing my redbirds), and he’s hurting this morning. he called this weekend an “awful” series. i’ll take it.

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on Jun 16, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

they could have easily swept us

we got lucky the 2nd two…

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Like Detriot?

by Evilfrog on Jun 16, 2008 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

in '06?

yeah, that’s why I want another WS win… it almost seems like we didn’t win it. although Detroit screwed themselves with bad plays due to inexperience. I’m just saying this weekend could have been a lot worse (like if the umps saw the ball bounce before Ludwick got it), but we still coulda won that one.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We out pitched the Tigers

Sure we had some lucky breaks with Tigers errors, but when I look back at that series, what I see is that we had outstanding games by Reyes, Carp and Weaver. They shut down the Tigers offense…that was the difference in that series.

by KYCards on Jun 16, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

it was unbelievable how much Jeff Weaver stepped up his game for that series.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really the whole 2006 postseason

29.2 IP
8 ER
25 H
9 BB
19 K
1.15 WHIP
3-2 Record

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 16, 2008 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

2.43 ERA too

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 16, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

wow

forgot about that. surprising we just let him go… why not maybe get him back again?

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

because he is not a good baseball pitcher.

by astrostl on Jun 16, 2008 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

because he couldn't stick with the brewers' AAA team

by Phizzle on Jun 16, 2008 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

they tried

If I remember correctly the Cards offered Weaver 2yrs for 12 or 13M.
He decided to take the Iyr /8M offer from Seattle instead.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well,

Boras decided that was what he would take.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 17, 2008 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and that is another reason

I don’t want them to think about trading Rasmus. Rick will be a free agent soon

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 17, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

a 2006 postseason 4.19 FIP against a 2.43 ERA indicates luck. his career FIP is 4.41, so on defense-independent stats it was business as usual for him.

by astrostl on Jun 16, 2008 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i kinda wonder if the front office looks for guys with middling

fip’s, and high ERAs, and counts on our defense improving them.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 16, 2008 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good point

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 16, 2008 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

For the record,

these three games have helped push the Cardinals to +4 against their Pythagorian record. Interesting thing is that that’s usually a sign of a weak starting pitching staff and a shut-down bullpen. We’re showing just the opposite. Something just doesn’t add up.

by tinstl on Jun 16, 2008 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I looked at the ESPN expanded standings

You can go back to 2002 and look at expected W/L compared to actual W/L. The only season we didn’t meet or outperform our pythagorean expected record was the forgettable 2003 campaign.

Kudos to TLR for that, IMO

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 16, 2008 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I remember reading over at BBTF...

...that he was the best manager in history at beating Pythagorean.

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Jun 16, 2008 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bullpen

The thing is, the bullpen has been pretty good at times, but when they’re bad, they’re REALLY bad, as was the case on Friday night.

We lead the NL in blown saves, but near the middle of the pack in saves, and there is some bona-fide talent down there, there’s just been too many injuries to be effective when they get used a lot. If Thompson and TJ were down there I think that would help matters, not to mention Kinney

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 16, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Temporary Sub for Yadi

What about hiring Mike Piazza just for this year to give Yadi and LaRue a break?

by Cards Fan 2008 on Jun 16, 2008 12:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

3rd catcher/backup 1st baseman/bat off the bench?

Hmmm. Doesn’t sound too terribly bad to me. I have no idea if he would do that, and that’s the only terms I would feel okay with. He can’t be the backup catcher since he’s not a very good catcher and he obvioulsy wouldn’t start at all on a regular basis. Plus, he could DH in interleague.

I don’t know. He’s kinda fallen off my radar the last few years. Heck, for all I know the guy’s bat is gone.

by Tackle Box on Jun 16, 2008 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Last Year

Piazza .275/.313/.414 in 309 AB’s with Oakland—he only played 82 games and was banged up all year.

His numbers have declined for 3 straight seasons, so I doubt he would top those numbers above—I really don’t think he’s worth signing for those numbers, given he’s an absolute terror defensively

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 16, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is he even healthy enough to play catcher anymore?

He didn’t play a game at catcher last season, it was always DH or PH. The offense could be good, but the defense (one of the cornerstones of this season’s team) would be beyond bad.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 16, 2008 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He doesn't fit...period

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 16, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he's washed up

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Never underestimate a good defense!!

It makes miracles, that’s the main reason the Cards are allowing very few runs, and the reason why they can keep it up better than someone could expect. This gives confidence to the pitchers, that will throw more strikes.

In 2006 it was “You can beat the Cardinals, but you can’t beat Pujols”, in 2008 is “You can beat Pujols, but you can’t beat the Cardinals”!!!

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Jun 16, 2008 12:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

great defense

is the reason the cardinals have been a successful team

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Great quote

From Yahoo! Sports writer David Brown:

“Yadier Molina, my goodness. He’s made of rawhide (Chuck Norris’ breakfast), so if he goes down, it’s because of the ultimate power in the universe. The word is, he has a mild concussion and he’ll be able to play the piano again. That Molina managed to keep a grip on the ball defies 13 laws of physics, two Commandments and possibly a copyright.”

by mojowo11 on Jun 16, 2008 1:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

That play

I don’t understand what the runner was doing there, outside of trying to inflict injury on Yadi—if he slides he might have beaten the throw to the plate…running over a guy up high from behind is bush league in my opinion. It’s different if he’s staring you down

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 16, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

The play was clean. In a 6-6 game with the catcher blocking the plate, your job as a runner is to run him over and knock the ball loose. I’m sure Bruntlett and Yadi both would’ve liked it better if the throw to the plate was to the third-base side so that Yadi wouldn’t have to pull the end-around tag, but in the end Yadi positioned himself between the runner and the plate facing backwards in order to make the out. That’s hardly the position you hope to be in, but Bruntlett did exactly what he should’ve done. Yadi was just in an unfortunate position that exposed the back of his head instead of his much more padded front.

by mojowo11 on Jun 16, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Plus

Molina positioning himself the way he did was unexpected. He caught Bruntlett off guard and pretty much surprised him.

by Tackle Box on Jun 16, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah. I agree with you. And I don't think Bruntlett went in any harder than he had to.

The real problem was Yadi’s mask flying off…...left his whole head exposed, and his postioning had his back to the play, so he couldn’t really adjust himself to absorb the blow. Bruntlett’s momentum took him flying right into him.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

wrong

Your job, as the runner, is to do your best to score the winning run. If he hook slides to the outside, he has a much better chance at scoring since the throw was on the first base side of the plate. I watched it at least 10 times yesterday after the play. If Bruntlett slides to the backstop side of the plate, he’s probably safe.

Yadi wasn’t blocking the plate, there was plenty of the plate exposed when he went up the line to catch the throw. Had he been facing the runner I would agree with you…but he wasn’t.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 16, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Then you must also think Pujols' slide in Houston earlier this year was also dirty.

I remember it being exactly what you described: plate available, could have hook slid and been safe, Towels wasn’t facing the play, throw to the first base side of the plate.

I didn’t think that was dirty and I don’t think this one was dirty either.

by Ray Lankford on Jun 16, 2008 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The difference between the two

was the Albert was attempting to break up a play on an advancing baserunner, and that wasn’t going to be the winning run. I think Philly fans would rather he been safe and have a one run lead rather than possibly decapitating the opposing catcher and being called out in the process

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 16, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

agree

it was clean, or at least “dirty within the limits that baseball allows for plays at the plate”, but it was also stupid.

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 16, 2008 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

clearly the best opportunity to score was to slide. i think he just committed to “bowling” before he figured out where the throw was going. bad throw on cd’s part, from 80 feet no less.

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jun 16, 2008 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

When I watched the replay

I thought Bruntlett was prepared for Yadi to turn left after catching the ball. Had the throw been good (Yadi made a fantastic play just to be in any position to make a tag, given the poor, short hop throw from Duncan), I believe Yadi would have naturally turned to his left to make the tag.

I think this is another example of just how exceptional Yadi is defensively. While the throw was on its way, he recognized the trajectory, adjusted to be able to catch the ball and turn to his right to have any hope of a tag to prevent the run.

Anyway, if my view of the play is correct, Bruntlett was bearing down on a his-forearm-to-Yadi’s-left-shoulder collision. It happened real quick, and when Yadi turned right, Bruntlett appeared to be committed to the contact. Too bad for both, because if he had been able to adjust to Yadi’s move, he’d have slid in safely, but Yadi turned and Bruntlett appeared to run into the tag with his thigh while providing the unintended chop to the neck.

Bruntlett was caught in a no-win situation at that point. If he plans to slide without making contact and Yadi tags him out, he gets razzed for not taking out the catcher. But because of the way Yadi turned (exposing his backside like mojowo11 said above), Bruntlett really takes out the catcher. Good thing Yadi wasn’t hurt worse.

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Jun 16, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

eric bruntlett

is the ultimate power in the universe?

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on Jun 16, 2008 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Only...

.... according to a small sect of Bruntlettites in North Central Texas.

by punditmoi on Jun 16, 2008 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

chortle

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Jun 16, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bad and good trade ideas for this year

I don’t see why we would trade for a starting pitcher this year. We have so many on the DL and some unproven starters who may or may not tumble/excel (i.e., Pineiro, Welly). Plus, thinking long term wise, we are still figuring out whether we have the offense to be competitive the next couple of years to justify the trade cost for an ace-type with one/two years on the contract. Once we know Ank, Schu, and Ludwick’s performance over a full MLB season, then we can figure out whether next year’s viable.

There are still some good/cheap trade ideas that don’t cost us our future but improve our chances for this year:
1. LOOGY – this is such a no brainer with our recent Villone/Flores performance. Villone I don’t mind because of he has the expected split and he has innings eater potential, Flores doesn’t have any plusses from what I can see.
2. Backup corner – Glaus is always an injury risk, Duncan as backup first may not work. Beyond people’s perception that Mather can fill this 1st/3rd hole based on little/no evidence, I think we have a need. All the potentials I can think of (Wiggy,Loretta,Branyan) are in our division and a no, but there’s got to be someone out there who fills that role who doesn’t cost us a Rasmus/Anderson.

by enoscountry on Jun 16, 2008 2:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Little or no evidence

of Mather being a viable backup?

He wasn’t even given a legit shot at it.

And we have Barden/Mather who can come up and be viable backups in the corners.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 16, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's played 50 games at 1b

in AA – for his entire minor career. Ten games at 3rd in rookie league. Fine, maybe he can perform but that is not enough experience to count on.

by enoscountry on Jun 16, 2008 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it's interesting

that the game before Mather was sent down, he filled in at third base and didn’t make a play on a soft ground ball…

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 16, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Shea Hillenbrand is a FA [or at least hasn't played in the majors this year]

he was horrible last year, but as a backup, maybe he’d be useful?

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 16, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Doesn't he have attitude problems?

I like him numbers wise, but do you insert something like that in your clubhouse midseason?

by enoscountry on Jun 16, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Lefthanded-One-Out

Guy has got to be the highest priority for Mo now. He doesn’t know who’s in and who’s out of the rotation, really. Flores isn’t the answer anymore (unless the question is “Who gives up more runs to inherited runners in the bullpen?”). It’s also someone who won’t require the moon and the trading team probably won’t need the moon either.

by Red in Chicago on Jun 16, 2008 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought Kennedy was our Lefthanded-One-Out Guy

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 16, 2008 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He gets 4 ABs a game though

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Jun 16, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And he's usually good for about 5 outs in those 4 ABs

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 16, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He he pulled himself up to a .428 OPS since May 8th the other day

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Jun 16, 2008 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What, with his HR and double day?

That only got him up to .428?

Yuck

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 16, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A cute little .169/.220/.208 line in 82 PAs

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Jun 16, 2008 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Crap!

I didn’t realize it had gotten that bad. Ridiculous.

by azruavatar on Jun 16, 2008 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Even if you double all of those numbers

It’s still just above average/replacement level

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 16, 2008 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i’d be happy to fill a team with “average” .338/.440 singles hitters! :)

by astrostl on Jun 16, 2008 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

150% would put him at .253/.330/.312 btw – the 2008 NL average is .259/.331/.411. so your intended point is well-taken!

by astrostl on Jun 16, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

His doubled slugging is just over half of NL average

Of course his average and OBP would be nice, but that doubled SLG is pathetic

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 16, 2008 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And I thought it was Duncan

less dunca(i)n', more ludwickin'

by bjork24 on Jun 16, 2008 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

hey

don’t jinx Glaus

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Will Carroll update - Carp has nerve problem

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7673

—-—-—-
Carpenter had a setback in his rehab, and it sounds like it’s the oldest one in the book. After the surgery that has since taken his name, Tommy John himself had ulnar neuritis, which is a swelling of the nerve that you and I call the funny bone. It led to a change in the surgery by some physicians, moving (transposing) the nerve out of its normal groove in order to keep it from being irritated by the new ligament. No one is really sure why it happens in some cases, but surgeons continue to debate whether or not to move the nerve as a matter of course or whether to leave it in place, since most players have no issues. I once watched several top surgeons heatedly debate this at the Injuries in Baseball Course back in 2003, and was surprised at the passion they held for their position. Carpenter’s irritation will be checked by Jim Andrews to see if he’ll need rest or surgery to transpose the nerve. Rest would set him back about a month, pushing a return to August, while the surgery would end his chances for ‘08 and put it at around the start of spring training next season. Either way, the team now needs to fill that gap in their rotation and are hoping that Mark Mulder can at least be league average after some progress in his second go round at rehab. We’ll have more word on Carpenter after his visit to Birmingham today.
-—-——

by mikedallas45 on Jun 16, 2008 3:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

If he needs surgery please have Jimmy Andrews do it

1 he’s the best.
#2 no bitching about the Cards med staff on this one.

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Jun 16, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am not going to knock the Cardinals team doctors,

but I really wonder why the team itself would not refer TJ cases to the man that has the longest and best track record right from the start….....I mean my dad had diabetic retionopathy surgery, and we drove over 300 miles to see the man that was the acknowledged expert…..so why not start at the top guys house?

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Paletta has pretty good credentials

It’s hard to say whether his surgical skills are worse than another expert in the field.

By the way, check out this animation (from Paletta’s website) of what Mark Mulder went through during surgery. Click on “Instability and Labrum Problems” and then click “Repair of Detached Labrum.” There’s also an animation for rotator cuff tears, etc. Interesting in a slightly sickening sort of way…

by Red in Chicago on Jun 16, 2008 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he may have good credentials

but Andrews is THE MAN in terms of Tommy John surgery. Hell, it is such a well known fact I don’t even have to link it.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

mattyfrommo, you said it better than I did.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well, at least it's a diagnosis

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 16, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

no doubt

don’t F with this guy Cards. he’s the Ace. the #1 of the staff. move the nerve now & be done with it.

i’m sick of them doing the “lets wait & see, give him some rest & hope for the best” bullshit. and that’s exactly what it is. bullshit.

move the nerve & be done with it. we’ll all be better off in the long run.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jun 16, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he's not the ace any more

and don’t expect him to be when he comes back either

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Surgery is almost always the last resort

No matter who you are and what you are having problems with, doctors do not like to immediately perform surgery if it can be helped.

by saladdays on Jun 16, 2008 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

the only way to make this better

if indeed his ulnar is the one & only problem, is surgery. if i’m wrong, i’m sure some one will tell me. but that’s what i’m basing my argument on.

so with that being the case, don’t wait. don’t cross your fingers & hope the pain goes away & he can pitch with it. fix the damn nerve & be done with it.

they pull this crap all the time, and in the end the player always needs surgery. so for once i’d like to see the Cards take the proactive approach. especially when it comes to their best pitcher.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jun 16, 2008 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ulnar nerve problems

really suck. It ruined my slow pitch softball career and turned me into a lefty mouse user. 10 years after the surgery I still experience problems with the nerve, including weakness in the shoulder and tingling in the fingers. Hopefully Carp doesn’t need more surgery because going under the knife isn’t a guarantee fix.

by ubeddie on Jun 16, 2008 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought they said that Russ Springer had the nerve

surgery and was out 2 weeks. This would put Carp back almost 6 months?

I have to say, even though surgery is the last resort..it seems that if you are going to have them cut your elbow open, they should do everything they probably SHOULD do the first time. At the point that you are actually already having surgery, the ‘wait and see’ approach seems too risky.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 16, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I heard that as well

If it’s 2 weeks I’d say do it. Otherwise he’ll try to tough it out and then likely have to go down again in Sept. right when we’ll really (hopefully) need him.

by birdo rojo on Jun 16, 2008 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

not sure if i am correct, but

i think the situation was different with springer in that he had been all the way back and was pitching, and after they moved the nerve, it only took him a few weeks to be game ready

in carps case, he would basically be starting over, like it was spring training, and by the time he was ready the season would be over, in other words, if the season lasted into november, he could prolly be ready then

hopefully this makes sense

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jun 16, 2008 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Anderson

I don’t understand the strong opposition to trading Anderson. With Yadi locked up long term, we should be using Anderson as a trading chip to fill other needs. As far as the mentioned Sabathia deal, I don’t like it simply because he will be entering FA at the end of the season.

by stl522 on Jun 16, 2008 3:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I guess the argument was

that Yadi isn’t going to have a long career? I personally would like to have both.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

it would be great if they could split time—60/40 Yadi. You know the way TLR loves to platoon :)

by gocards62 on Jun 16, 2008 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that would be awesome

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess that Yadi will

have a very short lived career if he continues to receive throws from the fielders that render him defenceless. What a job to hold onto the ball in that situation.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 16, 2008 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

blaming this injury on duncan is asinine. shit happens.

by astrostl on Jun 16, 2008 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

not so opposed

but, wonder if this is max value time. sort of depends on how opposing gm’s see AA vs. AAA success as necessary. i suspect success at AA only limits his value.

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jun 16, 2008 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who is blaming Duncan? It is asinine to imply

that was my point.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 16, 2008 5:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

“I guess that Yadi will have a very short lived career if he continues to receive throws from the fielders that render him defenceless.” you’re referencing a singular incident, and the fielder was chris duncan. that isn’t a stretch – it’s the only way it can be read.

by astrostl on Jun 16, 2008 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you are saying that you are not blaming Duncan

then you need to re-write that post, because it sure as heck reads as if you are.

by Tackle Box on Jun 16, 2008 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I did not mention Duncan in my comment

I believe that astrostl did. Get off my back.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 16, 2008 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes Sir!!!

It’s not my fault you woke up on the wrong side of the bed and don’t know how to get your point across correctly. Consider me “off your back”!!!

by Tackle Box on Jun 16, 2008 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

your world must be a pretty interesting place to live.

by astrostl on Jun 16, 2008 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

knock off the juvenile taunts please

i’m addressing all the parties to this little spat

by lboros on Jun 16, 2008 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yadi's DL history aside, how many catchers have long injury-free careers?

Catching invites disasters, and this suggests holding on to Anderson. I was trying to work “elide” into the post. Couldn’t do it, but thanks for the new word.

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Jun 16, 2008 5:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

what about derek lowe? I think sabathia's a bit out of our range, but if LA looks out of the race

we might even be able to get him before the deadline.

by tom s. on Jun 16, 2008 6:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

OT but ryan howard

owns Bartolo Colon.

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 16, 2008 8:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

That's a lot of real estate

to own.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 16, 2008 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

wouldn't that be like

Canada owning Russia?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sorry I made a blaming comment towards Duncan in the game thread yesterday

it was kind of a heat of the moment thing. So can anyone direct me to a video of yadi’s blocking the plate? Still haven’t seen it, and people have been saying it was one of the greatest defensive moves by a catcher of all time

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 9:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

there were a lot of us guilty of that

heat of the moment buddy, heat of the moment

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

link on stlcardinals.com

here

by TNTinCO on Jun 16, 2008 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thank you kindly, sir

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ma'am, actually

but no offense taken. i’m in a minority here…

by TNTinCO on Jun 16, 2008 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and you're more than welcome

by TNTinCO on Jun 16, 2008 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

cool

I have a soft spot for lady Cardinal fans… thanks again!

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

so

it looked like it was just a hard luck play there. nice to see that Glaus homerun too

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it's a sexy swing when he connects eh?

top 5 swing from the right side. so fluid

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Royals

Man, I miss the past few years they’ve been roadkill. They looked damn good against Arizona of all teams taking two out of three, and the one they lost? An 0-1 gem.

We best not sleep on them coming to town.

And actually, I’m pretty excited about them being a nice competition this year. Royals aren’t even my second favorite team, but since we’re going to play them 6 times a year and since interleague is going to stay, at least both sets of fans can have a true experience.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

looking forward to that

and the Chicago duel this weekend. hopefully the south siders can get to ‘em!

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Days off suck

but it’s one day our guys get to heal without having a game to play. So I’ll take it.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

so i just checked stltoday.com

and they updated the YADDA story from earlier today. instead of playing it safe, there are no plans right now to DL him & call up one of the Memphis catchers.

i dont really agree with that one bit. i get they want their Dr’s to check him out, but ask Mike Matheny his opinion if YADDA needs some time off.

the fact that there’s nothing else wrong with YADDA is a minor miracle. i really wish they’d do the smart thing & give him some time off.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jun 16, 2008 10:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

how many concussions has Yadi had now?

I really wish that they would give him some DL time. Even mild concussions can be a bitch to get over , especially after the second or third one. They are not fun.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 16, 2008 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Since there can be lingering problems, I would hope they would. Why even take a chance?

Even wearing the mask, catchers still get their heads jostled around on plays at the plate, foul balls, wild pitches, or even a shattered bat. I really wish they’d DL him to make sure everything is okay.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 16, 2008 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i couldn't agree more

i’m not sure how many concussions he’s had, but this probably isn’t his first.

i really hope after their Dr’s check him out they make the wise move & DL him. it’s just not smart to mess with the brain.

and like i said, if they don’t get that, ask Mike.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jun 16, 2008 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Memphis

Parisi so far – 7.0ip 4h 2er 1bb 6k and 2-4 from the plate.

Barden going 3-5, Haerther 2-4, Razza 1-5

Thats Parisi’s second great start so far since being bounced back down. I’m even more inclined to think that part of his issues was moving from bullpen to starting while here, because since he’s been back there he’s pitching like a man on a mission.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i could be wrong,

but Parisi said nerves were a big reason he sucked up here.

i thought i read where he said he got really excited & couldn’t calm down before both his starts. i can’t blame him for that if that’s the case. my nerves would get the best of me as well in my first couple games as a major leaguer.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jun 16, 2008 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

I didn’t like them moving him from the ‘pen to starter so quickly. it was fairly obvious that wracked his nerves…

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You may be right, lots of moves lately and I may not have pulled those comments in, but he’s pitching like he wants that call up back, and frankly he’s starting to win me over for another chance. Add a few more games and I may be on the bandwagon.

As far as nerves, me too.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Motte finished up with a couple K's as well

nice and quiet, good to see him settle a bit

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 16, 2008 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Y'know

If Hank Steinbrenner weren’t George’s kid, he’d be selling hot dogs in Times Square. What an idiot.

(This is in response to his comments about the NL and the DH)

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 16, 2008 11:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

you could say the same thing about a lot of rich people's kids

that’s what happens when people horde their gold

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2008 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

this just in

an MLB ump blows another call.

out in SF, Pudge was trying to score from 3rd on a short fly to right, Winn threw home & Bengie Molina had to come out in front & to the first base side of the plate to get the ball. so he had to try & swipe tag Pudge as he slid into home. he clearly got him & the ump called him safe. Bruce Bochy got himself tossed arguing the play.

the replay showed he clearly tagged him. so one of the other umps had to see that. i don’t know why he didn’t ask for help.

seriously, something has to be done about these umps. they just keep blowing play after play after play.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jun 17, 2008 12:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

wow

that was the go-ahead run, too… and i want the NL to sweep today, darn it!

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 17, 2008 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well on the bright side

jon boker/sp? just welcomed back rodney by hitting a 3 run HR to right to get the lead back

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jun 17, 2008 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

glorious

guess the giants found their LH hitting 1B, eh?

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 17, 2008 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I recall Bowker doing that to the Cards

glad we’re done with the Giants, anyway.

I have a love/hate relationship with the Cardinals' middle relief corps.

by madding on Jun 17, 2008 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It never ceases to amaze me

It doesn’t matter how good we are, or how bad they are, we (seemingly) always struggle with them.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 17, 2008 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

any one see how that game just ended?

man, Vizquel can still play the hell out of SS

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jun 17, 2008 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

number 1 web-gem of NL so far this season?

they gave it to ankiel for his two throws to third in the same game at colorado

was it better than that catch where he got the knee infection diving in the stl?

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jun 17, 2008 12:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i'd give it to Piñeiro for the kick play

that was the craziest thing i’ve seen in a while

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 17, 2008 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was going to say yes, without question

because many centerfielders have the speed required to have a chance of duplicating the catch, but few have the arm for those throws. But then I thought having the nerve to dive headfirst toward the wall at the track and not lose concentration may be just as rare. Tough choice.

by random on Jun 17, 2008 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mets Fire Willie Randolph at 3:15am!

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3447973

It says Minaya did not immediately return a call asking for a comment. Actually that’s not entirely true. He yelled, “Do you have any idea what [expletive deleted] time it is?!” and slammed the phone down.

by Upset on Jun 17, 2008 7:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs