What a relief!
Admit it – how many of you thought, even for a second, that LaRussa might turn to Izzy in the 9th? The Cards were up 1 and Franklin had been pretty bad (of course, who hadn’t?) the night before and Izzy had just been recalled earlier in the day. I thought Franklin would be the choice but it did occur to me that he just might turn to Izzy. We shouldn’t be surprised when it happens, because it will happen – and soon, I suspect. If Izzy has a couple of good outings from the pen, they’ll pronounce him cured and reinsert him into the closer’s role.
I’ve been inspired to examine the bullpen today b/c yesterday, while watching the Cards’ game, I was reading The Book -- particularly, the chapter on relievers. The authors’ conclusion, for those who haven’t yet read it, is that teams aren’t using their best relievers enough. Closers can pitch more than 1 inning at a time, for instance, w/o it affecting their ability to pitch the next day or the day after that. The conclusion is similar to one reached in Baseball Between the Numbers where it states that managers should use their relievers in the regular season as they do in the postseason. It’s no big deal to use Mariano Rivera for 2 IP in a postseason game. Therefore, he should do it in the regular season as well.
When the Cardinal game ended yesterday, FOX switched over to the Reds vs. Red Sox game. In this game, BOTH managers managed to misuse their closers and it ended up costing the Reds the game. The Sox had lefty Hideki Okajima on the mound w/ 1 out in the 8th. He was brought in to face a ton of lefties and had allowed 2 to reach base – 1 via single and 1 through a walk. With 5 outs to go in the game, and the Sox up 4-2 w/ runners on 1st and 2nd, Francona decided he’d seen enough. He promptly called on …(drum roll, please) – Manny Delcarmen. Now, Delcarmen’s not a bad reliever and he’s probably the best the Sox have outside of Papelbon, but Francona could have – and should have – called on Papelbon. Delcarmen’s 1st hitter was the estimable Javier Valentin who promptly singled, cutting the Sox lead to 4-3. That Delcarmen managed to get Griffey, Jr. to hit into a DP, and that Papelbon gave up a 2 out homer to Edwin Encarnacion in the 9th doesn’t absolve Francona of his mistake. Papelbon’s the best reliever the Sox have and no situation calls for your best reliever more than that one – 2 on, 1 out in a 2-run game in the 8th. If Francona uses Papelbon and he’s able to get out of it up 4-2, the Sox win in 9 despite Encarnacion’s 9th inning homer.
In the top of the 10th, Dusty Baker made just as big a mistake. He left Mike Lincoln in to pitch to the Sox and he promptly gave up back-to-back homers to Kevin Youkilis and Coco Crisp while his best reliever, Francisco Cordero, languished away in the pen. Cordero never entered the game and the Reds lost 6-4 in 10 innings. What, exactly, was Baker saving his best reliever for – the 11th? If they don’t survive the 10th, they never see the 11th. Why a team would lose an extra inning game w/o ever having its best reliever throw a pitch is absolutely beyond me, but that’s exactly what happened yesterday.
Watching all of this unfold, at least the part FOX allowed me to watch (they switched away to highlights of the Reds game while it was going on but immediately after the back-to-back jacks in the 10th) made me want to examine how the Cards were using their bullpen. Who is our best reliever? I’m not even sure. It’s not Izzy, at least not right now. God help us if it’s Franklin. Could it be Perez? Is it too early to tell? McClellan? Springer’s been pitching well of late. Do you think Tony and Dunc even know who our best reliever is right now?
Did you know – b/c I didn’t – that the Cards’ bullpen’s ERA is 15th in the NL? I had no idea it was that bad. Only the Padres’ is worse. It’s reasonable to assert that bullpen ERA isn’t the best way to evaluate bullpens b/c of the way in which earned runs are doled out. What about WXRL – relievers expected wins added? Last in the NL! Wow! We’re 13th in the NL in inherited runners allowed to score. I had no idea it was that bad. That we’re in the middle of the pack in the NL in ERA is a testament to how good our starters have been. Wainwright, Wellemeyer, and Lohse in particular have managed to keep this team afloat.
The table below details how well our relievers have pitched along with their leverage index -- how important the situation is when the reliever is brought into the game. A higher number reflects a more important situation (i.e.: 2 on, 1 out in the 8th). I’ve already defined WXRL. WPA is win probability added -- the amount that a player has contributed to the likelihood of a Cards’ win throughout the season. FIP is fielding independent pitching -- an ERA-style measurement of how well pitchers have pitched, regardless of defense.
| Pitcher | LI | WXRL | WPA | FIP |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Izzy | 2.08 | -2.47 | -2.90 | 5.89 |
| Franklin | 1.89 | 1.918 | 1.30 | 3.88 |
| McClellan | 1.55 | 1.589 | 1.28 | 3.21 |
| Springer | 0.92 | 0.585 | 0.50 | 3.43 |
| Flores | 1.64 | -0.142 | -0.22 | 3.97 |
| Perez | 0.95 | 0.702 | 0.53 | 2.53 |
| Villone | 0.74 | 0.100 | -0.05 | 3.84 |
Naturally, I didn’t include some of the others – the mop-up guys – Parisi, Thompson, Jimenez, Aaron Miles. We know they’re not our best options out of the pen (though Miles may be slowing turning into one). So, what does the table tell us? First of all, it’s important that we understand that WXRL and WPA are counting stats whereas FIP is a rate stat. What that means is that Perez’s WXRL and WPA aren’t lower than some of the others b/c he’s been worse. They’re lower b/c he hasn’t been with the team as long and hasn’t pitched in as many games as the others. The fact that his FIP is the best on the team (though, admittedly, in an EXTREMELY small sample) tells us how well he’s pitched.
The Cards’ 3 most leveraged relievers – the ones Tony has called on in the most important situations – are Izzy, Franklin, and Flores. The first 2 are unsurprising as they’ve been our closers/set up man but 2 of the 3 have been pretty bad on the whole this season. Flores, once again, has a negative WPA, a negative WXRL, and is 6th in the bullpen in FIP, yet Tony continues to turn to him in high-pressure situations. He’s walked 12 and struck out 13 in 18.2 IP. Lefties’ OPS against him so far this year -- .802. He’s not exactly shutting down lefties and really hasn’t his entire career. Granted, he’s generally better vs. lefties than righties, but that’s to be expected. I can’t help but believe that, as bad as Flores is, McClellan or Perez wouldn’t be better vs. lefties.
In fact, it appears as though McClellan, Perez, and Springer are the team’s 3 best relievers right now and, I’ll admit, as the season has gone along, Tony has entrusted McClellan and Perez w/ more high-leverage situations. Still, it won’t be long before Izzy’s back at the end of the pen. I hope he’s ready. I’ve been as big an Izzy-backer as anybody (and more so than many) but I’ve got my doubts. The pen clearly has a hole on its left side. Flores just isn’t good and Villone hasn’t exactly given us reason to believe he deserves a lot of trust in high-leverage situations (though, really, he’s been very good outside of 3 implosions). Aside from 3 games in which he was crushed, including Friday’s thrashing, he’s given up just 4 ER in 22.2 IP. For his career, he’s been better vs. lefties than Flores and, despite a pretty high BB/9, it’s still lower than Flores’. Maybe Tony should turn more to Villone in high-leverage situations vs. lefties and use Flores in more of a mopup role.
Still, it’s reasonable to question whether we shouldn’t be seeing more of McClellan and Perez and a little less Flores and Franklin. When Izzy does resume his closer’s role, I suspect Franklin will slide to the 8th inning role and, if anything, we’ll end up seeing LESS of the 2 rookies. That’s unfortunate. I hope Izzy pitches as he did last year. With Wainwright down and Wellemeyer (possibly) a little shaky, the pen will become even more important over the next month or so.
A couple other notes – first – Carp is set to see Dr. James Andrews re: his elbow. I know next to nothing about this stuff but, apparently, another surgery is a possibility. Yikes! Good thing we didn’t just give him a long-term contract worth $50-60 Million.
Mulder and Clement pitched both ends of a doubleheader for Springfield yesterday. Both got wins. Mulder really pitched quite well. Clement was OK – 3 BB in 5 IP.
Finally, Bernie, like many here yesterday, has begun his overture for Colby Rasmus to be called up from Memphis. Colby’s finally crushing the ball and may be ready + w/ Pujols and Wainer out, maybe it’s time. Is it? NO! The Cards’ problems are not in the OF. If Rasmus were called up, he’d end up in some sort of platoon w/ Ankiel and Schumaker. It’s difficult to say that either one of them should sit and it makes no sense to call Rasmus up to play 3-4 times per week. Nobody on Earth is a bigger Colby Rasmus fan than I am but he shouldn’t be called up until the team is ready to put him in the lineup EVERY DAY! Colby needs to play every day and, if he were brought up, he just wouldn’t. He’s not the savior. He can’t single-handedly keep this team afloat while it recovers from its myriad injuries.
There’s an argument to be made (and Bernie, sort of does) that Rasmus should be brought up and Ankiel should sit. Ankiel’s been slumping, of late. Even so, he’s still carrying an OPS+ of 109 and playing the best CF defense in the NL. Might Rasmus provide a little bit more offense? Possibly but the extra offense he provides the 3-4 days he plays isn’t worth having him sit twice a week so that LaRussa can figure out some LaPlatoon w/ Rasmus. The team should be prepared to play him every day, as the Reds are w/ Bruce, when he’s called up and it’s just not there right now. Unless Tony wants to commit to some strange, lefty-lefty Ankiel/Schumaker platoon w/ Rasmus playing every day, he should stay at Memphis.
I’ll be up w/ a game thread in a couple hours. Hope all the Dads have a great Father’s Day.
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Agreed about Rasmus.....
If our OF situation were more clear, I wouldn’t have a problem bringing him up. That said, we have too many OF’s that are producing at at least the same level that I’d expect out of Rasmus inititally. Remember, he struggles for quite a while at each new stop, so would he really give us much over the next few months? I don’t think so. Not to mention he’s only been hitting well in AAA for about 3-4 weeks. Why imediately throw him into a situation where he’s likely going to struggle again?
This team is kind of at a cross roads. I really feel like we’re a marginal playoff team at best. Of course, I felt that way the year we won the WS too. That said, its hard to know when to pull the trigger on possibly trading a guy like Lohse. Maybe the market for him isn’t as high as I’d imagine it would be, or maybe any prospective draft pick we’d get for just letting him walk is as good as any player we’d get back, but I’d almost like to explore signing him, especially with Carpenter being an unknown at this point.
I'm not sure
if we’ll even see Rasmus up this year
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 15, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
September he's a stone cold lock
And I’m sure someone will hit the DL and he’ll get the call.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
or there will be a trade by then...
still, if we are in the wild card hunt and out current outfielders are performing at current or better levels (and no one is shipped), why would they bring him up and risk him not making the transition fast enough?
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 15, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
'marginal' playoff team in '06 ?
I agree with you that THIS ‘08 bunch is at a crossroad, but I don’t think it is similar to the ‘06 group very much, at least not at this point in the season.
I suppose you mean that we BECAME that, “a marginal playoff team at best. Of course, I felt that way the year we won the WS too.in ‘06,” because of a team-wide second half slump, a rash of injuries, and especially the implosion of Izzy. But it seems to me that in mid-June of ‘06 the Birds were generally regarded as a playoff certainty.
That said, I am in general agreement… and my point is… I ENJOY this situation better. Our ‘06 fade made for some very painful days in August and September, even tho the story had a great ending.
As a fan, I would rather be backing an over-achieving team that shouldn’t be winning than nail-bite over a team that should be winning and isn’t.
We're nowhere near trading Lohse IMO
My guess is it will be another month before Mo even knows who’s in and who’s out of the rotation—and perhaps not even then. He can’t trade away one of the two or three anchors of the rotation now, especially not the one most likely to give 200+ innings this year.
A lefthanded version of McClellan is what the pen cries out for now, and the team has said it’s been looking for one, pretty much since spring training broke. I could see a trade involving outfield surplus or prospects for a LOOGy from an out-of-contention team before the deadline. It’s a lot more feasible deal to swing in that it carries minimal implications for next year for both teams, and it just seems more consistent with the Cardinals’ underwhelming trades of late.
by Red in Chicago on Jun 15, 2008 12:00 PM EDT reply actions
Agreed on the need
for a shut down loogy over several other pressing needs. Mulder? Nah.
Steriods is...is bad.
by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 15, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Mulder
is a shutdown lefty.
1. He’s lefthanded.
2. He’s been shut down for nearly two years.
by Red in Chicago on Jun 15, 2008 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
+ 1
arm slot and all…
Steriods is...is bad.
by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 15, 2008 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Wonder if Seattle
would be willing to trade Ryan Rowland-Smith for Chris Duncan? A team whose DH (Jose Vidro) and first baseman (Richie Sexson) are putting up .223/.272/.340 and .212/.292/.383 lines, respectively, has bigger things to worry about than their LOOGY, and Rowland-Smith looks like a real pitcher. A deal like that could benefit both teams.
by StanTheManFan on Jun 15, 2008 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Jeff Fassero?
I bet he’s available. And he didn’t pitch last year, so he should be well rested. </sarcasm>
I'll fight you for the Colby Rasmus fanboy title
The only reason Flores is still on the team is that TLR is obsessed with having two lefties. While they don’t have any pure relievers to call up and replace him, I’d think they could get a pretty significant upgrade by taking Jaime Garcia and putting him in the pen for the second half of the season. Keeps his innings down and gets him an introduction to the league.
Should we do that
to a pure starter, though? You could argue he’ll develop faster if he starts every fifth day instead.
by Red in Chicago on Jun 15, 2008 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
It didn't bother Wainwright.
And its been done like that in the past, when that was actually the norm.
I will get in on that fight too
So maybe it isn’t the time, but if Colby continues lighting it up down there and the time becomes apparent, why exactly do we have to be so set on Schumaker getting tons of playing time? Isn’t it all about what is best for the team? If Skippy has to go back to the bench role, so be it.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 15, 2008 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Ideally
I think Skip gets traded and Rasmus plays most days.
by Red in Chicago on Jun 15, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
True that
but is there a fairly good trade value for our Skippy at this time?
Steriods is...is bad.
by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 15, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Was there or will there ever be?
Sometimes you just have to accept that a player is what he is. You don’t have to acquire a future all-star with every trade. Sometimes you get addition by subtraction. Now, I do like Skip, but I’m intelligent enough to see a log jam at a position. In this case, you trust your scouting department and get what you can get.
I'm not a huge Schumaker fan but
his OPS+ right now is higher than Ankiel’s. It’s 113. He’s become a pretty good player. Mind you, there’s no doubt in my mind that Rasmus would be better but, as Skip’s playing pretty well, I’m sure that Tony wouldn’t put Skip on the bench and it’s also reasonable to ask “shouldn’t Ankiel be put on the bench rather than Skip?” Again, I’m not advocating it. I’m just saying that it’s not at all clear that Ankiel’s the better player.
it really doesn't matter to me
If Colby is who we all hope Colby is , Shumaker and and Ankiel are both expendable. For what it is worth, I love Ankiel, but Colby has that WOW factor.
Also, didn’t Colby do a pretty damn good job against AAA/MLB pitching the latter half of spring training? I think this “Colby is always going to start off cold at the next level” is overplayed a little bit.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
please dont confuse spring training pitching
with regular season pitching no matter who it is that’s pitching. Besides, I think Rico Washington did pretty awesome too.
I know they are different
I was just remembering that towards the end of spring training when he was facing major league pitchers he was lighting it up. I stand by the statement that he will always struggle the next step up is overplayed
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Obviously you haven't
You haven’t looked at Garcias line have you against lefties

by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 15, 2008 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
two words!
sample size. I would be more inclined to believe that if someone could show he had troubles against LHers his entire minor league career instead if …what is that 10.2 innings?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Cant Find
I can’t find his numbers for 2007 with a lefty/Righty slplit
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 15, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
wow
all of a sudden, I can’t find 2007 data on minorleague splits. I know you used to be able to get it there, but it seems to no longer be available.
"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton
Wow, you're right
I never noticed this before—at the top, in bold
“5/6/08: The site is now updated with 2008 stats. The downside: no pre-08 stats for the time being. I totally revamped the database structure, which should make it easier to add a lot more great features over the next couple of months. For now, enjoy the 2008 splits and check back for more updates! “
I have been thinking of going ahead and paying for the Baseball Reference
subscription. Now that I am so curious, I wonder if they have minor league splits if you pay for it
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
i don't think so.
"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton
now I can't even find how tp pay for it
I swear the other day I was looking for something there and they wanted me to pay for that information. Maybe it was somewhere else
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Just go to
baseball-reference.com/pi and try to log in. Then you’ll get directed to a page where you can pay for it.
No minor league splits there, BTW. It is awesome though.
I thought I was crazy
I was looking all over for the 07 stats and couldn’t find any eithier
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 15, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
BPro: Cardnials should get Sabathia.
Here’s the link (subscription required… sorry)
Dayn Perry (also of Fox Sports & noted Cardinal fan) thinks the team that makes the most sense for going after Sabathia is the Cardinals. His scenario is this:
Cards get: Sabathia
Indians get: Colby Rasmus & Bryan Anderson
- Rotation needs help with Wainwright down
- Cards in wild-card hunt; Sabathia could give them a leg up on Braves, Mets, Brewers, Dodgers.
- Getting Sabathia means others (ie Cubs) DON’T get Sabathia.
- Come August, Cards would have best SP depth in the league.
In my opinion, the only way Sabathia gets traded is if the Indians feel they are out of it. Right now, the Indians are 32-37 but just 6.5 games out in the AL Central with the White Sox holding a tenuous lead there. They probably don’t think they are out of it yet.
Also, Cleveland would have to get at least the equivalent of 2 #1 draft picks to land Sabathia considering that’s what they would receive if they hold onto him & don’t sign him. Rasmus & Anderson equal that easily…
Plus, the Cards farm system is in really good shape at the upper levels right now & it appears that we have enough down on the farm right now to make something like this happen, more so than most other teams in the playoff hunt.
The lower levels aren’t as strong right now, so even if we get Sabathia & can’t resign him, we would receive the 2 #1 picks in next year’s draft, helping the lower levels & not compromising the new front office philosophy of building from within.
I would love to see the Cardinals make this trade.
Discuss.
Boomer.
dayn perry is one of my least favorite sports writers
and this makes absolutely NO SENSE
theres no way we can outbid the cubs and yankees and mets in the offseason to keep the guy
his weight IS an issue
and theres absolutely no way i risk our top two projects on a gamble with our team being as fragile and lacking in pitching depth as it is
anderson and anyone else, maybe i consider it, and thats only if we have some assurance wainer, carp, or mulder kicks in at a good level down the stretch
the sad fact is dayn perry has a job writing goofy stuff like this
Come on 2009!
I sent Dayn a message about this proposal
the essence of which was, “Are you out of your mind?” A half-season rental, even of a very good pitcher, does not justify savaging the farm system.
by StanTheManFan on Jun 15, 2008 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
That's exactly what our team needs right now
trading for C.C. Sabathia. This is our one good chance to make the team older, fatter and more injury prone. Do it Mo!
Seriously, if a young man is a lazy fat boy while drawing a professional athletes huge paycheck, what does that say about his work ethic and attitude? Seems like a risk that is sooo
not worth the troubles that woud be sure to come with a contract extension for this obese slug.
Steriods is...is bad.
by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 15, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
"Lazy fat boy"
is a completely unjustified insult to Sabathia. That is a huge man, and he is not to blame for the frame that he was born with. I can easily name about 30 current or recent major leaguers with more fat on them on a percentage basis, and some of those guys are and were assets.
There are plenty of reasons not to go for this trade. Gratuitous slurs against a Cy Young winner are not among them.
by StanTheManFan on Jun 15, 2008 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Disagree
Don’t like fatties on my roster, period. Defenders of the obese athletes are most likely “big boned” themselves and are a bit touchy about the subject. Enough said and on to the next subject.
Steriods is...is bad.
by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 15, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't like "fatties" even if they're good?
And the only people who defend “fatties” are “fatties” themselves? You can’t possibly be serious. I could care less if you don’t like Sabathia but you ought to have a reasoned argument for your stance besides “that boy is fat!” And your sophomoric justification is even worse.
BTW
Babe Ruth was “big boned” and a pretty decent ballplayer. Would you like him, in his prime, on your roster?
I stand behind my statement
that I do not like fatties on the roster of our favorite team. If you like the fat guys, well, more power to you. Agree to disagree. Don’t let the discussion get you undies in a bunch. Let us move on.
Steriods is...is bad.
by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 15, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
What you detest
is really not my problem. Again, let us agree to disagree and let it go at that.
Steriods is...is bad.
by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 15, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I bet
you’d like to move on from that argument. I would too.
Sabathia isn’t a “fattie,” IMO. He is a big-ass man. Yes, I’m defending him even though I’m a svelte 160 pounds. I bet you or I could pitch injury-free.
It’s not like he’s Eric Gregg or something. He’s not even a David Wells.
so are you excited about our "fat"
new draft picks at 3B and bullpen?
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 15, 2008 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll take "fat" guys
if they are also athletic (and yes, the two can go together), which CC is (he can dunk!).
That being said, trading rasmus/anderson for his would be beyond foolish.
Well who the hell can see forever?
My arguement for passing on CC
is that we would have to offer the big guy a healthy extension in the trade scenario. My fear is founded on that contract extension, and the guy may just eat himself right onto many of the health problems of the obese while under the new $$ extension. We all agree that with big contract extensions that many players turn into the different guy than was originally signed. Maybe I am full of shit, but I see the guy as a future huge trade risk given the contract extension.
Steriods is...is bad.
by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 15, 2008 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
jackass statement of the year
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 15, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Sabathia
is 27 years old and he’s thrown at least 188 IP every season since 2002. He’d make the team fatter, but not older or more injury-prone. And who, exactly, said he was “a lazy fat boy” or an “obese slug?” He’s one of the best pitchers in baseball. He’s not worth Colby Rasmus, and we shouldn’t make the trade but your insults are completely baseless.
Notes on Sabathia.
Here’s an interesting read on Sabathia’s turnaround this year.
Sabathia’s numbers over the last 3 years (will be 28 end of July)
2005: 196.7 IP / 4.03 ERA / 1.25 WHIP / 104 ERA+ / 2.5 K/BB / 7.4 K9 / 0.9 HR9
2006: 192.7 IP / 3.22 ERA / 1.17 WHIP / 140 ERA+ / 3.9 K/BB / 8.0 K9 / 0.8 HR9
2007: 241 IP / 3.21 ERA / 1.14 WHIP / 143 ERA+ / 5.6 K/BB / 7.8 K9 / 0.7 HR9
As the above article illustrates, his inflated numbers this year are largely the result of a few really bad starts. He’s good. He throws strikes. He strikes dudes out. He keep the ball in the yard. Pretty much everything you could ask for, even with the weight.
For purely entertainment purposes, I watched him pitch in that snow make-up game between the Angels/Indians in Milwaukee last year & he is really really fun to watch. Towers over everyone. Unique delivery. Funny hat-on-head placement.
He’s a very good young-ish pitcher. They don’t come cheap. In my opinoin, he’s worth Rasmus.
The Cards have a current young MLB catcher contracted for awhile & they have more catching depth in the minors behind Anderson.
The Cards also have OF depth in MLB & in the minors, more than most clubs…
Boomer.
The trouble is
you don’t just give up Rasmus. You give up Rasmus and then you have to sign him as a free agent—to a mother-whopper of a deal. Why not just sign a free agent after the season?
by Red in Chicago on Jun 15, 2008 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
If this move was ever even given a second thought by the Cardinals’ brass, I would expect Luhnow to commit hari cari on the spot.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 15, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
right
you give up 6 years of Rasmus for 3 months of Sabathia. Now, maybe he’s re-signable but do you want to? He’ll get 7 years, maybe 8 considering he’ll just be 28 years old. I’m not sure I’d give him 7 years and $17+ M per season, regardless of his weight. However, if Sabathia’s re-signable, so is Rasmus. I think I’ll take Rasmus. I know Sabathia’s one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball, but I’d rather have Rasmus. Of course, as I mentioned, I’m practically the president of the Rasmus fan club.
hopefully anyone in the orginazation who reads Dayn
is laughing away. I swear if he was traded for a 3 month rental, I would probably quit following the Cards for a few years
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Important to remember...
If we were to get Sabathia & don’t resign him, we would get 2 #1 picks in the draft next year, so it’s not just a 3-month rental…
Supposedly, Sabathia is looking for Zito money, which he has earned in my opinion. The key difference being that unlike Zito, Sabathia has actually improved as a pitcher in the years leading up to the contract, making him more apt to produce.
Since Sabathia is a power pitcher, a long-term contract would be worrisome in theory, but Sabathia is also a control pitcher (note the K/BB ratio), giving him more of a chance to adjust if/when the fastball goes.
It seems that most are very reluctant to deal Colby Rasmus. Here’s what some of the Cardinals other minor league OF’s are doing to date:
AAA: Nick Stavinoha: .349 / .376 / .506 / 8 HR / 38 R / 44 RBI / 10 BB / 28 KO
AA: John Jay: .315 / .372 / .490 / 9 HR / 35 R / 35 RBI / 22 BB / 32 KO / 3 SB-CS
AA: Shane Robinson: .374 / .414 / .523 / 4 HR / 43 R / 31 RBI / 15 BB / 28 KO / 7 SB-CS
A+: Daryl Jones: .299 / .383 / .464 / 5 HR / 27 R / 22 RBI / 20 BB / 51 KO / 8 SB-CS
Although none of these guys come with Rasmus’s scouting / performance profile, it’s arguable that trading Rasmus wouldn’t destroy the farm system.
Boomer.
so giving up Rasmus
for 3 months of C.C. and 2 draft picks who you can have idea what you are going to get out of them is worth the risk?
I am not worried at all about what else is in the system, the deal is that you are giving up someone with superstar potential
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
So
I’m assuming you are completely fine with the possibility of trading Colby Rasmus (top 5ish prospect in baseball) and Bryan Anderson (top 50ish prospect in baseball) for two first round draft picks?
Yes.
It would markedly improve the current team that has, at this point, a very realistic chance to make the playoffs without taking any options away from the major league team & if ‘06 taught anyone anything, it’s that all a team has to do is “make the tournament” so to speak.
Adding Sabathia for this year without taking anything away from the St. Louis Cardinals is a total win. I really don’t care that much about the play off chances of the Memphis Cardinals.
Rasmus & Anderson were both brought to the Cardinals through the same instrument: The amatuer draft. If the trade were to happen & we didn’t re-sign Sabathia, we would then have 3 first-round selections next year to find the next Rasmus / Anderson. Judging from Luhnow’s drafts since he took over, I have every bit of confidence that he might make that scenario occur.
Boomer.
We also have $$$ next year to make a realistic push to sign him
We can’t just automatically concede the big name FA’s to the Yankees.
While I’m not a big fan of throwing stupid money around long term – CC’s one of the rare pitchers I’d be OK with. The teams’ been making some definite bank the last couple of years and if they’re smart and set aside some of that money today, they could pay his long term deal without completely handicapping them in the future. Everything you hear about the guy’s attitude and off the field demeanor is a positive.
An hour ago I was against the idea, now I’m starting to come around to it…
I cringe at the thought
of giving ANY pitcher 120-150 million dollars. It is just crazy. All pitchers are a serious injury risk. It is just the nature of the beast
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Completely agree that they are a HUGE risk
But they also have an equally HUGE impact on winning games. It’s a definite risk/reward judgment call. I can only think of a couple of pitchers I’d even consider it for, CC is one.
I'm actually not really opposed to this trade
but we could insert any of our other outfielders instead of Rasmus and it would be nearly the same deal
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 15, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
but in reality, the main difference would be that he has more upside. just playing devil’s advocate here really, don’t want to see Colby go too much (but at this point, we don’t have a ton of need for him)
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 15, 2008 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
of course
the Cards are much too fiscally responsible to consider it anyway. No way they give that kind of money to a pitcher for those 6-7 years, and you know the Cardinals would have to think they could sign him long term before doing it
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
sabbathia's body
is going to catch up to him soon
MLB pitchers best seasons generall fall between age 27-31
you would have to sign this guy, bad body and all much longer
im not against trading for an arm
but not this arm…...the risk is too great
id rather see them take a run at beddard when seattle gives up on him
im looking for exceptions to the body type rule
and im large, so im not picking on fat people
by some of the threads its my job to defend them
but guys like sid fernandez, fernando valuenzuela, bartolo colon…....they fell apart when age and weight became a factor
maybe theres a good example of a rotund large pitcher with longevity
a fastball power pitcher who held up
help me out
Come on 2009!
I just think we all have to agree
didn’t we learn a lesson last time out best prospects were traded for a pitcher closing in on 30?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Sabathia's body doesn't compare to anyone.
Quoting Bill James in 2008 BJ Handbook
“I have to tell you, as a baseball fan, I absolutely adore C.C. Sabathia. I always have.”
“It is a sacriledge to compare C.C. Sabathia to any other pitcher. He is totally unique. For one thing, although listed weights of baseball players are so bogus that it’s hard to see the point of listing them, C.C. has to be the heaviest player in major league history. He’s huge – 6’7” and has an aircraft carrier frame supporting large piles of necessary & unnecessary flesh, all fo this adorned with comic little ears that stick out from his face as if the Lord couldn’t find a flat place to put them.”
He also goes on to say that Sabathia is balanced & graceful & an outstanding pitcher who has steadily gotten better.
The guys mentioned above (Fernando, Fernandez, Colon) are all short, so they don’t really count here.
As far as durability goes, Sabathia has made at least 30 starts 6 times in his 7 years in the majors. For comparison, Bedard & Burnett have only made 30 starts in a year once apiece..
Boomer.
it's also been shown,
in more than one study, that overweight pitchers age much better than skinny pitchers, and are generally able to carry a heavier workload over multiple seasons. CC’s weight is actually a positive thing, from a health perspective. No one has figured out why yet, afaik, but that’s just how it seems to be.
Disliking “fat” players because it seems intuitive that they will have “problems” is a primo case of berra’s “what you know that isn’t so”.
That said, trading Colby for CC would be insane. Jon Jay or Stavinoha or one of our other OF’s, maybe. Skip schumaker and mike parisi? Sure. Maybe even Schu and Boggs, with reyes thrown in. but NOT colby OR anderson, and certainly not both.
"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton
usually a bigger frame
means more endurance. simple.
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 15, 2008 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
bigger frame
does not mean overweight
bigger frame isnt the same as a man who is overweight
putting constant strain on his knees and joints
and has thrown all the innings he has
theres always an exception to the rule, but the rule is what you need to pay attention to
especially when it would be a 100 million dollar plus investment
and again, i would fit way more in CCs catagorie than wainwright
so im not picking on him
Come on 2009!
is this guy
actually that overweight? let’s see his body fat percentage compared to other players before we talk about his supposed obesity. besides, we may not even sign him after the rental (I wouldn’t mind 2 first round picks, maybe we could actually get a new middle infield)
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 15, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
pitchers don't usually have problems
with knee injuries, though, at least not career- or season-ending problems. They have problems with elbow injuries, shoulder injuries, etc.
If having a “larger frame”/carrying extra pounds allows a pitcher to throw the ball while putting less stress on the elbow/shoulder etc (and I don’t know that it does, I’m just speculating) then it makes sense that larger pitchers would last longer.
Of course it could also be that there is a sample bias because larger pitchers potentially have a harder time making it due to scouts not liking their bodies, and that the ones who do make it are a more elite group than what you’d find in skinny pitchers, or something. There are always caveats you can add.
"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton
Question.
Why the insistence that the Cardinals don’t trade Rasmus and/or Anderson?
Just wondering.
Boomer.
They are viewed as future
“core” players, around whom you build around, much like the MV3. Rasmus is the next Edmonds. I don’t think Anderson is a future core player, with Molina already designated as the future catcher. But he is a fairly rare commodity in that he is a catcher who can hit for average and some power.
If we trade Rasmus and can’t re-sign Ankiel, what then?
by Red in Chicago on Jun 15, 2008 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't understand the general willingness
of the community to trade Anderson. If he can continue to progress it would be a great thing to have him and Yadi on the same team. In spite of Yadi’s best offensive year so far, his splits against RHP are only .270/.309/.319. Meanwhile he has been ripping LHPs to the tune of .365/.459/.524.
It would take a lot for me to trade a LH-hitting catcher who is hitting .330 at AAA at 21 years old. Yadi’s career high in games played is only 129. I would love to have a capable cost-controlled platoon option.
All that being said, I am willing to trade just about anybody for the right deal, but I think Anderson is an elite prospect and should only be dealt if the deal is very, very good.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
because
a low first round pick has a small percentage chance of being a pro player. Colby and Bryan at this point have a fairly high chance of being elite MLB players. Both are much, much better players than what you could reasonably expect to get out of a draft pick in the 16-60 overall range. Even the “sure thing” picks (1-10) only have a small chance of being as good as these two project to be.
I’m not a real Rasmus fan, and I’d have no problem trading him for the right target- say, Lincecum, or Cain, etc. At the deadline last year, I might have even made the trade for Sabathia. In the off-season, I might have traded him for Bedard, and had I any inkling that Volquez would do what he’s done, I’d have made that trade in a heartbeat. But I think either one of our elite prospects is too much to give up for just 2 months of any pitcher.
"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton
Again....
Wasn’t Rasmus a low-first round pick (25th overall, if I recall)?
Wasn’t Anderson a 4th round pick (140th overall)?
Assuming the Cardinals wouldn’t re-sign Sabathia, is it reasonable to assume that where the organization succeeded in identifying players like Rasmus & Anderson before, they could have a decent chance of doing the same thing again with 3 selections in the top 50?
I agree with you that players with their potential shouldn’t be traded for anything but elite talent (as your suggestions of Cain / Lincecum make clear). I just think that Sabathia is not only better than Cain / Lincecum, he’s arguably the best starting pitcher in baseball.
That would certainly help the club now.
Boomer.
yes, they were, but
We also had several other picks in the same range or higher that didn’t turn out.
"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton
Twelve years of players > 3 months
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
If he thinks it would take
Rasmus and Anderson to land C.C. then the cubs have no shot at getting him.
nfw
NEVER trade a front line everyday player for any pitcher! i think both rasmus and anderson are those kind of players. if i was running the tribe, though, i’d do it in a heartbeat.
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!
Teams situation after 70 games
Let’s not lose sight of the team stats which determine playoff participation
– tied for 2nd best record in NL (with Philly)
– 2nd best road record in NL (behind Philly)
– Four game lead in Wild Card
– only two teams within 6 games of Wild Card (FLA & MIL)
This is a great position to be in with 92 games to play. Keep doing what has worked (starting pitching and defense) and focus on fixing what is broken (bullpen support).
I believe Tony and Duncan will remember Sept/Oct 06 and start to use the rookies more as the vets wear down. I believe a Rasmus would result in more OF playing time problems. As HC has said, OF isn’t the problem.
AJ Burnett
Well, the website that functions as a Cub fan fantasy clearinghouse is at it again, trying to stoke a trade for AJ Burnett.
Today, he evidently told a reporter the Cubs were okay in his book, or something like that, and everyone’s atwitter over the news. Does anyone else agree that Burnett would look a lot better in Cardinal red? Much more sensible than Sabathia. I just don’t know what it would cost to get him.
by Red in Chicago on Jun 15, 2008 12:38 PM EDT reply actions
This could work
I’d much rather have CC, but not sure if I like the price we’d have to pay. I think AJ could be had for less.
That being said; I think we should really wait a week or so and see what shakes out. How is Welly’s elbow? How is Wainwright’s finger healing? Does Carp need the nerve transposed? Is Mulder really throwing in the 90’s?
We’ll have a better idea of those answers in the next week or so and those answers will have a very significant impact on whether or not we need some help.
Hoping we get him
I have always hoped the Cardinals end up signing him again, I was hoping he is a FA next year when he will have a lot money to play with
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 15, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Too Soon on Rasmus
Obviously we don’t need another OF, but the bigger reason I see to not call him up is that he JUST started hitting well. It was only a couple weeks ago that he couldn’t hit the ball off a tee if I remember correctly. Let the kid stay down there and prove he pulled his act together and that this isn’t some short lived thing.
There is no harm in letting him stay at AAA until the rosters expand, or calling him up sooner if we end up with an opening on the roster because RB wrote another article on who’s going to get hurt. (I kid! I kid!)
And The Dream (like that? I just made it up as his new nickname) is doing really well in CF so far, and we’ve always known that he’s REALLY streaky, so if he’s slumping now he’ll make up for it later on. No biggie.
LaPlatoon
Another entry into the imaginary VEB glossary, along with Franklins.
Dr. James Andrews is basically the creme de la creme when it comes to sports medicine. Everybody who’s anybody that needs a surgical fix (or even just an opinion) goes to him. I’m really glad to hear that’s where Carp is headed, and I fully trust whatever opinion Andrews gives him.
And also a very happy Father’s Day to you as well, hc!
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
my question is
why didn’t Carp have Andrews do the first surgery? He has always been noted as the best for that type of injury. Why would you want anyone else cutting on your elbow?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 15, 2008 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
why anyone would let
paletta touch them after the disasters this team is seeing is beyond me
Come on 2009!
LaPlatoon
I almost didn’t use the word b/c I think, generally, platoons are good if used properly and I think, despite my problems w/ some of Tony’s decisions, that he does a pretty good job w/ the platoons. So my use of that term sounds derisive, though it probably shouldn’t be. Thanks for the Father’s Day wishes.
Andrews is for elbows
Yocum is for shoulders.
Neither is a name you ever want to hear your pitcher connected with.
Yeah, you're right about that
Maybe “really glad” isn’t how I should have put it. But I know he knows what he’s talking about, and whatever he says I will trust.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
I am not a big fan of platoons
and not a big TLR fan. But I do agree that TLR uses the platoon better than most.
Steriods is...is bad.
Not a big fan of platoons?
Not a big fan of using the natural split of handedness to maximize your hitters’ ability?
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
Platoons
have been berra, berra good to the ‘08 Cardinals so far, I’d say.
"Well, folks, this game began as a tiny worm and is blossoming into a large cobra." - Mike "The Moon Man" Shannon
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jun 15, 2008 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Clement
According to the linked boxscore, Clement had 3 K’s, 0 BB’s.

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