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Around SBN: Knicks Beat Lakers With Familiar Strategy

The Messenger

What do you really say about a game like that one? Not a whole lot, that's what.

Okay, so let's review.

The largest brewery in America, a longtime St. Louis landmark, is pretty much screwed.

Our baseball team was beaten last night by eighteen runs.

The status of our ace pitcher, Chris Carpenter, is now up in the air following yet another setback.

Our young turk pitcher has a bad finger and may not be back for quite a while.

The greatest hitter in baseball, who just happens to play for the Cardinals, is out with a bad calf and is probably out until the All Star break.

Oh, and by the way, each and every last one of you are going to die someday.

Okay, any other bad news?

I hate to possibly put myself out on a limb and invite more hatred and ridicule, (thanks everyone, particularly Azruavatar, damn your black heart) but I was watching Todd Wellemeyer last night, and he doesn't look healthy to me. Obviously, his velocity was fine and his delivery looked okay, but there was one number that, to me, really stood out to me. 49. That's the number of strikes that Wellemeyer threw out of his 90 pitches on the evening. A guy coming back from an elbow injury who barely throws more than half of his pitches for strikes is a huge red flag. Elbow injuries typically manifest themselves as control issues, whereas shoulder issues tend to pop up in the gun readings. He was still throwing hard last night, but he absolutely could not get the ball down. Such a marked lack of command, after the way he had thrown for most of the year, scares the living bejesus out of me. Hopefully, it was just rust, but I worry that Wellemeyer may be throwing on borrowed time right now.

Hmm...I'm looking for good news currently, to try and offset my cavalcade of gloom this morning. Oh, my cat Tennessee doesn't have ringworm like I thought. It's just a rash. Not good enough, huh? Kay. Let's see, anything good.

Albert is going to try and make a comeback more quickly than is being predicted. So, that's pretty good, right? Of course, if he rushes back and hurts himself again, then the season really is over. So, maybe not such a good idea.

Wow, this sucks. Just about a week ago, virtually everything was looking outstanding for the Cardinals. They had a dynamite one two punch at the top of the rotation in Wainwright and Wellemeyer, an offense that was really coming around in June, and  a possible cavalry on the way. Now, not so much.

So, are we ready to write off the season? Or do we still think the Cards can hold on long enough to get their players back healthy and make a run? You have to think the Cubs are going to have to come down to earth at least a little, but they look as if they may, in fact, be nearly this good of a team. I would expect them to drop off a bit at home, but it's going to be awfully hard to catch them. Maybe the wild card? I don't necessarily see a whole lot of other teams just catching fire around the league, so the wild card could very well be an option.

So, this is my question to you. What do we do now? Should the Cardinals start looking to sell off some of their valuable veteran pieces and go into that full rebuilding mode that many of us were calling for during the offseason? The Cards have a couple of young pitchers that could probably come up and at least hold their own. Probably a little early, but we could get a look.

Or, should they try to bring in a veteran presence to try and stabilise the team? Brian Roberts still looks to be available, though I'm sure the cost would be pretty steep. I'm sure the Cards could put together a package strong enough to entice the Orioles, but would it be worth it? There are a few veteran pitchers available too, with C.C. Sabathia at the head of the list. I highly doubt the Cards could afford the package that a guy like Sabathia would cost, but there are others that they might be able to afford.

So, that's the question I have for you this morning. With how the Cardinals are standing right now, with bad news flying in from all sides, which way do you think they should go? Tear it apart, or try to buttress the walls? Or, maybe you think it's still way too premature for any of this, and they should just stand pat and see what happens?

I'm really sorry about all the gloom and doom this morning, everybody. Kind of hard to find a silver lining in this particular bank of clouds, though. So, what do we do about it?

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What you do now is

go do some yard work or something and stop thinking about the Cardinals for a few hours. What you do not do is make decisions about tearing or buttressing anything at the end of a week like that. That is a recipe for panicky, bad decisions.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 14, 2008 9:57 AM EDT reply actions  

That seems

like a good, sound approach. Still, though, I prefer to panic.

What this book presupposes is, maybe he didn't?

by the red baron on Jun 14, 2008 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

The buttressing needs to continue to be from within the organization. Way too early to be talking tearing apart! Very surprising to see you react like this over some bad news and one terrible game.

by gossard56 on Jun 14, 2008 10:00 AM EDT reply actions  

Good news

1) Well, Colby went yard again.
2) Miles did a nice reverse-Ankiel last night.

Um, yeah, that’s all I got.

by mikedallas45 on Jun 14, 2008 10:17 AM EDT reply actions  

does miles get credit for a hold?

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jun 14, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I am pretty sure

you have to be leading to get a hold, so…no.
Nice try though!

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Seeing the glass half full

I actually like what I am seeing right now, except for the injuries. I see no reason to either tear it apart or try to make a quick short term improvement. I would be really pissed if we gave away some of our top prospects just to rent Sabathia for a few weeks.

Our outfield is fine. Yadi is having a great year with the bat (remember he is suppose to be a all defense .240 hitting catcher), Glaus has been fine with the glove and his hitting is coming around. Alberts been having a fair year, not great, but I think that’s because they pitch around him so much. Only soft spot is the middle infield which is OK defensively but not contributing much offensively. Starting pitching has been in the top half of all the teams in both leagues as has the relief.

Forget about last night. Every team has a game like that once a season. Just hope you don’t have more than one. Yes we are picking up a few injuries, but every team does that. And no we aren’t going to catch the Cubs and their half billion salary. But we are still having a good year and have a very entertaining ball club.

I think management is on the right track. Churn the roster a bit. Bring up someone from Memphis every couple of weeks and see what they can and can’t do at this level. If some veterans like Kennedy don’t start hitting, dump them. Make a cost effective deal or two next month if it’s there. But don’t go to extremes. Go with the young cost controlled guys. Play moneyball. This team isn’t heading for last place like everyone predicted. Go Cards!

by O'Fallon Park on Jun 14, 2008 10:32 AM EDT reply actions  

Agree

This is a fun team to watch (last night notwithstanding). Re-assess closer to the all-star break to see how Albert, Waino, and Welly are doing, and whether we’re still sniffing the wild card spot. I don’t expect all of Izzy, Mulder, and Clement to be back and producing, but hopefully one or two of them can provide a boost to the team.

by Yellow Dog on Jun 14, 2008 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pujols might have the highest BA of his career

this year. he won’t get as many rbi’s because of being pitched around though. I’d say our MI defense is better than OK too. but yeah, I like what the management is doing, just don’t go to extremes!

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 14, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stand pat...

“momentum” is only as good as the next day’s starting pitcher… a lack of command is also a sign of a guy who hadn’t pitched in eight days. Let’s see what happens in “The Colonel’s” next start.

While the Phillies do have one helluva lineup, they ain’t as good as they looked last night, and the Cardinals ain’t as bad as they looked last night.

Keep “grinding” each at-bat, keep throwing Strike One, and keep playing good defense… that’ll win ya a bunch of games, no matter the injury news.

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 14, 2008 10:34 AM EDT reply actions  

Whoah

It seems wayyyyy to early to write off the season now. Every team has the one night when everything goes wrong. We have been winning series after series and still can easily win this series. Thankfully, run totals don’t carry over to the next day. We just have to forget about last night, put a couple runs on the board early, and focus on now.

As for what to do at the trade deadline, getting another starting pitcher seems a bit rushed at this point in time, when we have two more pitchers on the way back who haven’t had set-backs, even though they may be long-shots. Shoring up the middle infield would be at the absolute top of my priority list. Plenty of names available when you look past the veteran status – even Ian Stewart of the Rockies could be an option as he has been working at second with Colorado so far.

"because at the end of the day they still are the Chicago Cubs"

by rockin the red on Jun 14, 2008 10:34 AM EDT reply actions  

i agree

no need for more old folks. if any trade is made to shore up the middle infield (and i agree it is our greatest weakness) it should be done looking down the road. blocked minor league guys with real good potential or young veterans should be the target since hoff et al don’t look like they are going to add any pop to the MI. the cupboard is kinda bare in the MI for the next 3 or so years (minimum), so offense from the MI is what i would try to improve. we are playing well and winning at a good rate. things just happen to be better (other worldly even) on planet cubby right now, but we should focus on continuing to build a strong young team and let this year fall where it may. no brian roberts, no ray durham, etc needed. giving up talent is the only way to get young quality players from other organizations (duh), so kinsler, uggla, or even mark ellis will require sacrifice, just gotta hope mo’s crystal ball is working properly when/if he decides to go for one of the young vet or blocked minor league guys. don’t care when he does it,but needs to be done before next year for sure.

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jun 14, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

The curse of Paletta strikes again

So this latest surgery on Carp didn’t take….boys, I gotta tell ya, I didn’t see this one coming. Who would have thunk it?

I’m sure not ready to throw in this seasons towel yet, how about you guys?

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 14, 2008 10:35 AM EDT reply actions  

Carp

He was an injury risk when the Cards got him off the scrap heap, and even when he came back and pitched well he was STILL an injury risk…..............

I can’t believe everyone around here thought Carp was going to finish out his career healthy. It’s like thinking AJ Burnett or Mark Prior would/will finish their career healthy..

I think people need to stop bringing up Carp, who cares if he comes back this year. I sure as hell would not push it. He will not contribute much in my opinion if he does come back this year….

Just wait and see with Carp, but it’s foolish to think he is going to come back and just be some stud who never will get hurt…. LOOK AT HIS HISTORY!

by ICbirdfan on Jun 14, 2008 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep, I hardly ever

agree with you on most any subject, but my friend you have nailed this one on the head.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 14, 2008 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

+1

absolutely true

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jun 14, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

This would make sense, EXCEPT

Carp’s return has been the cornerstone of the Cardinals entire strategy for the season. Remember the old question: Are we rebuilding or contending? The Cardinals’ answer to that, demonstrated by moves such as picking up Piniero, Walley, and Lohse, was that we would contend. And the rationale was that hopefully we would hang in there during the first half, and then, with Carp back, would suddenly transform into a playoff caliber team. Remember that theory? Well, it’s still the modus operandi of the 2008 Cardinals.

If we are going to abadon this strategy, then that will be a very big deal. It will mean, in particular, that we need to figure out who we will trade away this July.

The bad thing about Carp’s setback is that now we are pinning our hopes to some extent on Mulder and Clement—sucker’s bets if I ever saw one.

Oh well. We’re committed at this point. It’s too late to pursue a building strategy in earnest. But the unexpected good news is that we were much better than we thought we were to begin with.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Jun 14, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

But with this year...

I’d pin my hopes on Wagonmaker; Lohse; Pineiro, Colonel, and Looper as long as they can stay healthy. We can contend with that.

by Evilfrog on Jun 14, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we neet a bit more

I agree that we’ve done fantastic so far with this contingent. But we also have played relatively weak teams. My fear is that the NL East and the Cubs are going to beat this group down, unless we get some kind of improvement.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Jun 14, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

well

it will force us to bring up some AAA starters, which is more interesting anyway

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 14, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wellemeyer

Anytime there’s discomfort to the elbow, there’s cause for concern but I’m not really bothered by his inability to throw strikes last night. Wellemeyer’s only recently become a strike-throwing machine and so it’s not that surprising to me that, given 8 days off, he’d have some trouble throwing strikes upon his return. Hopefully, he just needed to shake loose some of the cobwebs and he’ll be ok next time out. I think it’s premature to believe that a guy who’s had trouble throwing strikes his entire career until this year is injured simply b/c he has trouble throwing strikes his first start out following injury. You may be right, but I’ll need to see more evidence than one bad start.

by chuckb on Jun 14, 2008 10:43 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

+1

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 14, 2008 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Three HR's...

I think any pitcher would be justifiably gun-shy after giving up three home-runs in a matter of minutes.

by duncans_army on Jun 14, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

he could just be out of his routine after having the time off. dude was on a roll.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 14, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's only one game and it's not like we got ripped up by the Padres bats...

The Phils got some pop in thier line-up.

Let’s see how the series goes and then we can freak out if we get shelled the next two games and the offense continues to sputter.

If it all does go to hell then I would say trade the contracts due to expire and bring up the kids and see what we have for next year.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 14, 2008 10:44 AM EDT reply actions  

No easy answer, need define goals of this team.

Not to dismiss this current team because they have been the most fun cardinal team to watch for me in recent memory. No I’m not ready to tear it down, but nor do I want to rush guys back and risk having an injury filled year next year also. I mean we are better set up to win next year as opposed to this year are we not? As a cardinal fan it is a bitter pill to watch the Cubs pull farther and farther away though. I say it’s Colby time and lets start to get some work in for the guys who are gonna play a huge role in this next cardinal generation and shed some guys are are not.

by ghostofjimlindeman on Jun 14, 2008 10:46 AM EDT reply actions  

i'd wait

the differential colby will bring to the offense relartive to what we are getting now is not likely to be very positive and could be negative. will he contribute more than ankiel or ludwick; i doubt it. more than skippy or dunc, maybe, but not likely right away. i think it is best for all concerned to wait longer, even until september, to alter the current outfield mix unless we move one of them in a trade, such as barton (or get a deal where we can send him where he needs to go, memphis).

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jun 14, 2008 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

where the heck are they going to put Colby?

it ain’t Colby time until they move some outfielders in a trade or something

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 14, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am going to reply on this to death, so don't be a hatin on me

you call up Colby and play him. You have Colby, Ludwick, and Ankiel as your starters. Contrary to popular belief, Tony will play an everyday outfield, you have to look no farther back than 2004 or 2005 to see it. Three worthy OFs are needed though. You keep Skippy and Barton on the bench or use them to give an occasional day off.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

in that case

who gets to play CF? I’d hope they would keep Ank there… but does Colby want to be moved out of center?

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 14, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

If that is what would be holding it up

I am pretty sure that is the least of our concerns.
But I say Ank., saying it altough I have no idea how Ras would play in LF. Since he is supposed to be a pretty damn good defensive player though, I think he could make the move.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would like to add that the Philies have a real nice looking team

from top to bottom and really like their crusty old manager. I was hoping that our team would end up with that type of manager this offseason.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 14, 2008 10:52 AM EDT reply actions  

Can anyone answer this?

Did Springer intentionally throw at Howard? Why? Down by 17 or 18 runs, why in the hell would we throw at anyone?

by chuckb on Jun 14, 2008 10:52 AM EDT reply actions  

Threw inside, hit Howard on the thigh............

I think there was a purpose in going inside, but the purpose was to back a guy off the plate who was real hot last night and just too comfortable…....

I don’t think he hit him on purpose though. If a pitcher is really upset and really wants to hit a guy he will generally aim for the rib area.

by ICbirdfan on Jun 14, 2008 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

There is no way to know for sure

but I would say yes. Two home runs, one of which he admired a little too long, makes me think that. Plus Springer is not exactly a wild thrower. I think he precisely hit his location…..

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 14, 2008 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think not

especially since he basically said if that is the way the umpires were going to be , he might think retiring, cuz he isn’t going to quit pitching inside

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

+1

but the philly guy should have been bounced as well

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jun 14, 2008 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

As regards Welle throwing strikes

The other guys weren’t throwing strikes either. Every pitcher the Cardinals ran out there except Worrell (and Miles, if he counts as a pitcher) had a strike percentage that was well below par. Wellemeyer threw 53% of his pitches for strikes; Villone threw 55%; Springer threw 58%; Franklin (statistics-of-small-numbers alert) threw 57%. By contrast, Kendrick was well into the 60s, Condrey into the 70s.

I don’t know what to make of these number, but I’m just sayin’.

by StanTheManFan on Jun 14, 2008 10:55 AM EDT reply actions  

Of course he threw at Howard

and it was about time, and of course TLR had to grandstand. It’s old time baseball, no big deal. The Phillies sure acted like no big deal and responded the correct way by throwing behind and not hitting our batter the next inning. Messages were sent and no one got hurt.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 14, 2008 10:56 AM EDT reply actions  

agree.........Howard knew Springer was going to come inside.

Springer kept it low and thats why Howard just walked to 1B

by ICbirdfan on Jun 14, 2008 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the Phillies handled

the hit by pitch much better than the Cards did. Of course they were leading by more than two touchdowns at the time.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 14, 2008 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

maybe Greg Maddux could be had for cheap

it’s not like the Padres need an aging veteran like that, and it’d buy us some time to get the rotation back in shape.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jun 14, 2008 11:01 AM EDT reply actions  

I cannot see Maddux ever coming here. If they are calling the Padres, they should ask for

Randy Wolf. He’s younger, he’s pretty good, and he’s a lefty. But he’s someone you could try to sign for next year too.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 14, 2008 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

injuries

injuries injuries injuries injures.

Something that we do NOT need any more of at this point!

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 14, 2008 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

as for Maddux

does he ever get injured? Maybe his good luck would rub off on the team

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree on the concern about the Colonel's elbow

disagree about the panic. I still think we have to look at it like any success this year’s team has is gravy and set things up for ‘09.

RB, I think you are right on regarding Welle’s elbow and I don’t see the point in running him back out there so soon. I really don’t think there is any question that the correlation between elbow issues and control is a pretty tight one. Most guys who are tough enough to get to the bigs are not going to tell you anything is wrong with their arm unless it is fairly serious. Pitchers deal with pain on a regular basis when things are going well.

I just think they should have been more cautious with him, but I can imagine that the choice came down to pitching Welle, doing a bullpen start, or calling up Reyes. If that is true then the decision, while disappointing, is not surprising.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jun 14, 2008 11:01 AM EDT reply actions  

I am more concerned

that the Colonel’s elbow may soon be placed in the hands of good old Doc Paletta and his career could then be in jeopardy.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 14, 2008 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the real concern should be

why do the Cardinals send so many pitchers to “good old Doc Paletta”, or any other doctor, in the first place? All this whining about medical treatment is at least totally uninformed and probably baseless.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jun 14, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

True

But you also have to wonder why so many Cardinal players experience “set backs” in their rehab and require multiple DL stints and additional surgery. I’m not a doctor—not by a long shot. But I do wonder why we seem to have so much trouble getting people back healthy on their projected return dates.

by Ray Lankford on Jun 14, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rotoworld writer says

“something’s wrong with Cards medical staff” in his blurb on Carp. Duh.

I’d like to hear Bernie, Strauss, Goold, ask Mo/DeWitt some questions about rehab procedures.

I’d also like to know if the Cards are using 3-D motion analysis to check pitchers’ biomechanics. And hitters too.

by gocards62 on Jun 14, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right

I’m not throwing anyone under the bus—yet, at least. Its just weird how we have such a difficult time with things like this. I look at guys like BJ Ryan, who come back from TJ surgery on schedule and return to being effective right away and wonder, “why can’t we do that?”

There has to be an explanation for why Cardinals have such a hard time coming back from surgery. Maybe its the medical staff, maybe its the physical therapists, maybe its the coaches. It just seems like something’s not right. I would like to know why.

by Ray Lankford on Jun 14, 2008 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

My Opinion: Paletta's Ethics Are Compromised

I’m kind of going out on a limb here, but I think the problem is not that Paletta’s incompetent, but that he’s compromised his opinions to serve the interests of the team management. Essentially, I think Palletta tells the management what they want to hear far too often.

There’s nearly always uncertainty in medical opinions. But I think Paletta consistantly resolves these uncertainlies in one direction—the direction that TLR wants to hear.

It’s not like Palletta has a great track record. Why, then, do the Cards keep him on? Because he plays ball with management, that’s why.

TLR’s obsession with squeezing every ounce of value out of players is a terrific approach for winning, and for managing your way into the hall of fame. I think, however, that it is a poor strategy for managing the medical treatment of your players.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Jun 14, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe we need a new family of statistics

to track individual physicians and teams track records on both the occurrence of pitching injuries and the rehabilitation of those injuries.

I come here for insightful, fact-based opinions on the team and the game, so all this totally speculative stuff about the medical people is just not interesting to me. When Paletta operated on my son’s non-pitching shoulder he came highly recommended by specialists that I trust and acquitted himself very well. He seems to be a brilliant and caring physician. My son’s rehab went according to schedule and he had no setbacks and no after effects.

I think it is just a risk of the business when part of your strategy to contain cost is to get recycled pitchers from the scrap heap that is compounded by over a decade of poor player development.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jun 14, 2008 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well to be fair

Mulder is not a “recycled pitcher from the scrap heap” and the Cardinals had nothing to do with his development. Dude was a stud. Now, you can say, “maybe someone should have noticed differences in his delivery.” Fair enough. But I’ve got to think that the medical staff has a hand in that analysis. Or what about Rolen? He played here for years before any problems arose. Definitely not a scrap-heaper. Already an established major leaguer, so no prob. with the Cards development. I’m just saying . . .

I’m sure Paletta’s a fine surgeon. I’m glad your son’s surgery went well, and I can appreciate the fact that Paletta comes highly recommended. But I just don’t think you can ignore the possibility that something is going on and hold the Cardinals because of their player strategy. That seems way too conclusory . . . especially for someone who finds “totally speculative stuff” uninteresting.

by Ray Lankford on Jun 14, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

We can all evaluate

player’s past performance and future potential by watching them play and evaluating the various statistical measures. We have no data (that I am aware of) on pitcher injuries, doctor’s success, rehab strategies, etc. that would allow us to compare various MLB teams. So what basically happens is we have guys get hurt, they don’t recover as well as we like, we get pissed off, and we want to blame somebody.

So we get totally unsubstantiated rants that question the competency and ethics of people they do not know, have never seen perform, and have absolutely no back up. I just don’t think that advances anybody’s understanding of the game or improves the community environment.

I doubt any of us really know who was involved in the evaluation of Mark Mulder prior to the trade or what evaluation was actually done. I have no idea what dynamic exists between Paletta and the training staff. I don’t know whether Mulder has followed his training regimen precisely – I think he pretty much said he pushed too hard after the first surgery.

I also think players deserve some of the blame for believing they can play injured and are just as guilty of delaying surgical options as team management and the medical staff.

Finally, I don’t “hold the Cardinals soley (sic) responsible because of their player strategy.” I believe what I said was that having chronically injured pitchers is sympomatic of “recycled pitchers from the scrap heap.” Whether Mulder was damaged goods or not when we traded for him, he certainly was on the scrap heap when we signed him to essentially a two-year contract.

As far as Rolen goes, who knows? The freakish nature of his original shoulder injury makes you wonder about the original strength/stability of the joint. It isn’t like he exactly set the world on fire after Kremchek operated on him either as he has 3 HRs in 179 PAs this year in a RH hitter friendly park.

I understand that people have a right to their opinions, I just believe you need some sort of tangible information if you are going to question a person’s competency and/or ethics.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jun 14, 2008 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not questioning compentency or ethics

Just resuls. Why they aren’t there, I don’t know. Maybe its the management’s fault. Maybe the players. Maybe the medical staff. I don’t fucking know. Questioning isn’t accusing. My “rant” was no more unsubstantiated than yours. Chill out.

by Ray Lankford on Jun 14, 2008 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW

the rant I was referring to was not your post, but the one I originally commented on.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jun 15, 2008 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

I just hope the team thinks it is gravy too

I would hate for them to mortgage the future in an attempt to make up for all these injuries. Please, please do not make any major trades before APu or WW come back.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

so on top of that whole crapfest last night

Goold reports Mather and Worrell are being optioned out today.
I can see optioning Worrell out, just to get a fresh arm up (and it can’t be Jiminez, so yay!), but if Mather is sent down and Colby is not called up, I might be so pissed I won’t watch the game today.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 11:04 AM EDT reply actions  

The Mather option was a suprise

to me, not on board that option at all.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 14, 2008 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mather needs to play

so I don’t have a problem w/ him being sent down. He’s not playing in St. Louis. I just wonder who’ll replace him. And for that matter, who’s gonna replace Worrell? Is it Motte’s turn?

by chuckb on Jun 14, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Izzy replacing Worrell, maybe?

Still not sure who the replacement for Mather is. It might make sense to bring up Josh Phelps (even though he’s unimpressive at Memphis) and let Mather get some time at first base.

by StanTheManFan on Jun 14, 2008 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

duh!

Yeah, you’re probably right. Don’t know why I forgot about him.

by chuckb on Jun 14, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, I hope it is NOT Phelps.

Two reasons. One, he’s really just a replacement-level guy, hot or not. Two and more worrisome, the whole reason they signed him was as insurance in case AP was down for a long time—another “break glass in case of emergency” guy. If they break the glass, I don’t like the implications.

HC, your Barden idea sounds better to me.

by StanTheManFan on Jun 14, 2008 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd rather see Barden too.

I’m not really a fan of Josh Phelps. He’s too streaky…..but I think it will be Phelps.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 14, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

he's definitely NOT a replacement level hitter

he’s a very good hitter. He has an .820 OPS over almost 1500 career MLB plate appearances. But he’s dreadful defensively.

The Barden for Kennedy swap needs to be made, though.

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 14, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

hell yes

If Kennedy can’t even get steady ABs agaisnt lefties, do we have hope the writing is on the wall?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

.820 OPS

is not all that far above replacement level at first base. It’s somewhere between “replacement level” and “league average,” which isn’t the same thing. League average in the NL this year for first basemen is .273/.361/.477, per Baseball Prospectus. If he was hitting like that and coming up to play catcher (.260/.332/.399) or 2B (.267/.335/.414), I’d say do it in an instant. Those aren’t where he’s going to play.

by StanTheManFan on Jun 14, 2008 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

good hitter, replacement hitter, whatever

if Phelps gets called up and gets a lot of playing time at 1B, i am going to have to make sure I keep quite the stock of Frankins on hand.
That is not a good defensive player. Duncan and Phelps at first base, that is some kind of scary defense. We might be complaining about missing APu’s glove more than his bat!

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

"league average" is very valuable

much more valuable than replacement level. Replacement level is defined as “70 points below the league average for a given position”, and 2008 MLB average OPS for a 1B is .800 (DH is .746), and in 2007 it was .821 (DH was .801). That would make replacement level at 1B somewhere between .730 and .751. Phelps is much better than that. Mo did a great job of bringing a guy with that level of ability into the organization.

I don’t know why I’m even arguing this, except that the guy can swing the bat and I think it’s unfair to disparage the one part of the game he can do well. And we aren’t talking about replacing Pujols or giving him a long-term deal. We’re talking about replacing Duncan or Mather, who ARE playing below replacement level right now, for a month or so.

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 14, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Houston.......

Do you agree with me in that Mather will be sent down but STL will not bring up an OF….

Ankiel CF, Lud RF, Skip/Barton LF

There is no need for another OF, the cards have too damb many…

by ICbirdfan on Jun 14, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

it'll probably be Phelps

though he does nothing for me. I guess it could be Barden—he could play some 3B if Glaus is called upon to play 1B. I could even see Haerther or Stavinoha but my $’s on Phelps.

by chuckb on Jun 14, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

go along

with asking glaus to spend time at first and taking a look at another infielder.

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jun 14, 2008 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I started out thinking of Barden @ SS since that is where he is playing in Memphis but,

Maybe DFA Kennedy and bringing up Barden for 2B would be helpful. His bat is weak for 3B but might play well at 2B/SS and of course he can problem play 3B better than both Miles and Ryan.

He also wouldn’t complain about being a utility guy like AK.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 14, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can stand behind that

of all the moves they have made this year (and there have been A LOT of good ones) that might just be the best one yet

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed on the need to play Mather

most every day. I think that he is the better option at 1st than CDunc and that adds more value to the team with his outfield play. Others may see it differently, mainly TLR.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 14, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think Mather has looked good but has not produced much.......

Dunc was brough down due to poor POP…...........

Duncan OPS/SLG/OBP= .713/.367/.346
Mather OPS/SLG/OBP= .649/.343/.341

by ICbirdfan on Jun 14, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mather never got a real chance to get in a groove

so let him go back down unless given that chance

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, we knew that would happen with Mather though.

He just was not going to play every day when Skippy can play aginst RH pitching….

Heck Duncan never really got full playing time to get in a grove either, it’s just the fact about platooning at times.

by ICbirdfan on Jun 14, 2008 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I hate this explanation

This is Kennedy’s defense too. AK says he’s poor batting is due to his erratic playing time.

And the answer is: you play well first, and then you get regular playing time. That’s how ludwick did it. That’s how Ankiel did it. Hell, that’s how Pujols did it originally.

This stuff about not having a groove, though, is just sour grapes. You can’t say mather wasn’t given his chances. They sent the pitching coach’s son down to AAA for Christ’s sake. He just didn’t show enough to justify having 6 fracking outfielders!

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Jun 14, 2008 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is some truth behind sporadic PT

But in Kennedy’s case there’s no excuse for .155/.211/.155 in 76 PAs. Mather is at least in the realm of being a major league player…and going from an everyday player to not contributes in that to some degree I’d imagine.

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on Jun 14, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

All I am saying

is that 35 at bats is not enough to judge if he is worth being in the big leagues or not. I hope he gets another call up soon, otherwise he is better of getting the regulat at bats in the minors.
What I really don’t understand is not using him at 1B while Pujols is out.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think there can really be any explanation of

Duncan playing first base over Mather that isn’t primarily nepotism. If they really wanted to help the kid they would have given him enough time at Memphis to truly straighten things out. Ditto if they want to raise his trade value.

Of course, if he is traded during TLR’s tenure I will expect it is a sign of the end of the world.

The smart move wouuld have been to play Mather everyday until Dunc found some success. Then you take the pressure off Dunc and you find out what you have in Mather. Since returning, in 13 PAs, Dunc has two singles and a walk for a line of .167/.231/.167. Pretty sure Mather could do that.

Just don’t see any objective baseball reasons for Duncan being brought back so soon.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jun 14, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's a tough comparison to make

since Mather is brand spanking new and Kennedy is an old man

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 14, 2008 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree , Mather needs to play

I don’t understand why he hasn’t been playing much lately. I still think the time is now for Colby to come up and and outfield of Colby, Ank, and Luddy get the majority of playing time. That is probably what is best for this teams offense. I like Skip and Barton, but they have nowhere near the firepower Rasmus brings. Someone needs to help offset the loss of APu, and I like giving the playing time to Colby over going out and trading for someone.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Off topic just a bit but

isn’t it great to actually be able to throw around names of our AA and AAA teams that have the skill sets to be a contributor to the big league club instead of hoping for some pie-in-the-sky deadline trade because our minor leagues are bare of major league talent? What a nice turn around for the origination.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 14, 2008 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

+11

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jun 14, 2008 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Potentially add a 2 pitchers???

I’m thinking we may bring 2 pitchers up and sacrifice a bat. Given Wagonmaker is out we don’t have a real innings eater placing a large load on the bullpen for the next couple of weeks. Tony may have to give up a bench guy.

by birdo rojo on Jun 14, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

that I can agree with

otherwise I will stand by my Colby or pissed off theme

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

What a stupid fucking move

so what, both McGwire boys continue to get playing time they shouldn’t now? Duncan still can’t hit and now Skippy is bumped up in the rotation of OF, when he is probably the worst defensive OF we have this side of Duncan.

After May saw us make such great personnel moves and really embrace talent over entitlement, it’s like we are going back to ‘LaRussa’s’ guys just because.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not even close

C’mon Hardcore, it’s not even close.

Skip has OBP .372, SLG .430 AVG. .305
while Mr. Mather has OBP .341 SLG .343 AVG .229

Getting outslugged by Skip Schumaker is the very definition of not hitting well enough to stick. So what’s the argument—Keep Mather to play defense. Who is he? So Taguchi?

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Jun 14, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

small sample sizes

you can’t compare stats like that, the ABs are nowhere near one another.

223 to 35, c’mon

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

In 35 at-bats?

Well, if you are going to use a sample size like that, let’s look at Skippy’s first 35 ABs this season:

AVG .250 OBP .341 SLG .361

Not that much different.

Mather has a higher upside Skippy, and what makes this move even worse is that it means that Skippy becomes the everyday LF going into inter leagueplay. He shouldn’t be the everyday ANYTHING. He has shown that he is a much better player coming off the bench or PH.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mather
June .394 .407 .259

Skip
June .450 .639 .389

That’s 36 ABs to 27 from the same time period. Apples to Apples.

I ever grant you your point that Mather has higher upside. But his upside is all in the future where as Skip is producing at his highest possible potential right now.

So Mather goes down, and Skip plays.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Jun 14, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are still comparing a guys first 35 ABs

to another guys probably best month…when he has been used sparingly and not been overexposed.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2008 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Upside is beginning to become a four letter word for me...

Upside is potential. Not actual talent. When he reaches his upside then I would take him over Schu.

But Schumacher is doing his job which is getting on base and playing above average defense. Why would you mess with that in my mind he has proven he is a big league player.

I believe in time Mather will to but Skip has not come even close to earning a demotion. Send down Duncan.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 14, 2008 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

If they would have sent down Duncan instead

this would all be a moot point.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sheesh.....

You are SO far off base, it’s not even funny.

by SoonerfanTU on Jun 14, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

enlighten us

how is he so far off base? If you are going to call someone out, back it up please

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

Izzy
Duncan
Skippy returns from the bench abyss

Duncan gets installed as the everyday 1B for some reason when Pujols goes down and Mather doesn’t get another start.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2008 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

HUH?

Izzy is ready. Skip plays against righties. Nothing has changed.

by SoonerfanTU on Jun 14, 2008 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I take the stand-pat view.

Remember that this team would still win the wild card if the season ended today. Remember also that some of the key components of that success - and make no mistake, that’s a success - will be coming off the DL relatively soon, unless their injuries are more severe than they are thought to be. None of that says “blow it up” to me.

At the same time, this organization finally has a plan. There are finally enough potential contributors in the farm system to build a future around. Compromising a long-term plan for short-term kluges is exactly what got the farm system stripped bare 8 to 10 years ago, and it has taken a long time to recover from that.

by StanTheManFan on Jun 14, 2008 11:08 AM EDT reply actions  

Yep

Let’s see where we are in a week or so. Regardless, I really hope they don’t trade off a bunch of our youngsters to rent some old vets, no matter who they are. This was predicted to be a “lost” season from the start., and its been a whole lot more entertaining than I thought already. Keep the focus—the Cubs will take a dump at some point, whether it’s during the season or, like last year, in post-season. In fact, I enjoy seeing my Cubfan friends broken by post-season chokes even more than crappy full seasons. Let’s just keep things together for ‘09. Remember, we’re only two years out from a World Championship. No need to freak and do something stupid.

by rockin redbird on Jun 14, 2008 11:16 AM EDT reply actions  

Speaking of the Cubs......

Per MLBtraderumors they are “reconsidering” trying to acquire A. J. Burnett. If they did that, and managed to keep him on the mound, well, I think things would look even better for them…...

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 14, 2008 11:20 AM EDT reply actions  

Well

that’s a nice knee-jerk reaction after he made them look silly for 5 innings last night….

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jun 14, 2008 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Facts

If Lohse doesn’t get Howard and Uttley off the dish…....he will get shredded too. Springer at least tried. Wellenmeyer wasn’t throwing strike…...because they were hitting then out of the damn yard. Kendrick didn’t have to throw stikes because the cards swing at shit…....Ankiel should watch Uttley bat….....if the pitcher give you a single pitch, you hit a single….. if he gives you a opposite field double opportunity…...you hit the double…......if he throws you a dick high fastball down the center…....you crush it!!!!!!!!!!!! I’m tired of seeing Glaus and Ludwick look at pitches on the outer third…....because they’re waiting for a mistake inside….....sober up…..............on a positive note, both Albert and Wainwright will be back at on their first eligible day…...............also, bumping Lohse back a day gives him the pleasure of opening in Boston, and give Welly the KC game….a now defunct All Star politics manipulation…............Good news is, if Lohse can beat the Philles and Boston, he goes. An unlikely scenario I must admit….............Eaton today is very vulnerable, but it will take at least 6 runs from the boys

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on Jun 14, 2008 11:26 AM EDT reply actions  

Eaton has strung together a few good starts.

You are right, he’s due for stringing together a few crappy starts. That’s pretty much been his whole career…... I marvel at his pitching line last year. How he was able to manage a .500 W-L record with his craptastic peripherals is a sin against the baseball gods…....

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 14, 2008 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

why isn't miles

In the starting rotation yet?

by Evilfrog on Jun 14, 2008 11:29 AM EDT reply actions  

if he only had a knuckleball

he could be the poor man’s version of Wakefield

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think

that taking the last two games of this series against the Phillies is well within our reach. And this years’s team has shown the ability to shake off a bad showing the previous night and come out ready to kick butt the following day. They can do it against the Phillies too.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 14, 2008 11:30 AM EDT reply actions  

For what it's worth...

Carp’s surgery is obviously different, and I’m certainly no professional athlete. But, back in February, I had arthroscopic surgery on a major joint…my knee. Since that time, I have experienced 3 distinct set-backs where I had major pain and had to reach for my crutches again so I could walk. I even was using weight training and physical therapy, and they still happened. I think that these post-surgery set-backs are just part of the recovery process for some people. Thus, I’m not too surprised or upset that Carp’s rehab isn’t pristine right now.

by Big Rev on Jun 14, 2008 12:39 PM EDT reply actions  

+1

I too got a knee scoped this spring, and had problems with pain and instability beyond what the (very good) surgeon said to expect—but it did resolve eventually. It just required patience that I didn’t really want to have while the knee was hurting. Human bodies aren’t machines, and sometimes patience is required.

Does this mean that Carp is NOT screwed? No. We don’t know yet whether he’s screwed or not. Patience…

by StanTheManFan on Jun 14, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Karma

Its the Cubs year sadly, but the baseball gods have given us a taste of what a great team we will be next year. Carp and Mulder back. Ludwick the new Rolen. Ankiel the new Edmunds. Perez the new Izzy. Albert the old Albert. Lots of depth.

Colby

Having said that, they are the Cubs…... and with some luck we might sneak into wildcard.

by The Duke on Jun 14, 2008 12:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Ludwick is hitting way better than Rolen, Duke

but you’re right, 2009 is shaping up to be a very cool team

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 14, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ludwick hopefully makes a run

like the Scott Rolen 1998-2004 version

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd put long odds on all that happening

I’m not convinced that Mulder will ever make another pitch in MLB. Carp might not either.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 14, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

shush your mouth

Although I agree with you on Mulder, I am not going to give up on Carp yet

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

start?

thinking mulder back as starter or reliever? i’d say good chance he replaces flores or villone when he comes up, and it is looking like that is how things will go

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on Jun 15, 2008 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nothing has changed

they should have sold parts like Lohse, Duncan, Reyes, Izzy, and Skippy off at the trade deadline anyways. This just should harden the teams resolve to do so.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2008 12:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Trade all the players HL hates!

Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!

I don't care about your fantasy team.

by stltrav09 on Jun 14, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

Not like those guys have alot of value, outside of Lohse, right now anyways.

by SoonerfanTU on Jun 14, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

to some extent HL is right

Of course keeping Lohse is he continues pitching well is the one exception now that the rotation has started breaking down. Maybe Izzy regains his form (we still need a closer, even though I want it to be Perez).

Otherwise, does anybody really seeing Duncan, Reyes, or Skip having a future as a starter in this orginization? If you can good good prospects or package them for an impact player you HAVE to do that.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

However

You don’t trade them for a box of rocks simply because the luster has worn off. If you don’t get value FOR the traded person, you should not make the trade. The problem with trading any of the above is that it would be very difficult to get value for them at this time. That’s partly because, with the exception of Schu, they’ve been playing so poorly as to undermine the value that they previously appeared to have. It’s also because no other team is ready - yet - to trade their own commodities with value, and you have to have a willing trade partner. And finally, there are a relatively limited number of things we need right now, and they don’t match up well with the trade bait that might be out there.

Again: patience.

by StanTheManFan on Jun 14, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

so you are saying outside of skippy

that they are playing like a box of rocks

so trading a box of rocks for another box of rocks is quite the perfect analogy. Some other team’s box of rocks might fit in good here, while our’s might fit in well there.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is a fair point.....

Other folks might just see a shiny rock where you see one that should be skipped into the pond. Parts and pieces fit together differently for different teams…....

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 14, 2008 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

You miss the point.

If you trade Duncan NOW, all you get for him is a box of rocks, and that is not a trade worth making. That is a trade you make when his perceived value has risen from its current all-time low—if it ever does (and if it never does, there’s always unconditional release…). The same is basically true of Reyes; although there may be more teams that would take a flyer on him, his stock is about as low right now as it’s been in years.

Timing is everything. If Dunc’s OPS is a mere 30 points higher a month from now, his trade value will have risen considerably, and if it’s 50 points higher, it will have risen dramatically. If it’s the same as now, or worse, no harm is done by waiting, because you’re not going to get less for him later—you can’t get less later than now.

All of this, incidentally, is also one reason for letting him play first while AP is out: his trade value isn’t gonna be enhanced by sitting on the bench or wandering aimlessly at Memphis.

by StanTheManFan on Jun 14, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would agree with you

except for the point being that while him playing at first base while Albert is out does increase his trade value, it is a kick to the groin for the teams offense.
So you wait for them to come back to what they may never be again at the expense of other players? I believe Duncan should have had to prove he can hit again before he is put back on the active roster. Moving him and Skippy opens up a roster place for COLBY FREAKIN RASMUS.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wasn't Ludwick a rock in somebody's box?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jun 14, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

hitting the nail on the head

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

only problem is

who is going to give us something good for those guys?

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 14, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

a package of those players should get us something back

pitchers are always valued.
Plus I don’t always have to play by the rules

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Except that I don't hate Lohse, Reyes or Izzy

and I don’t even HATE Duncan or Skippy.

Duncan and Skippy are blocking people like Mather and Rasmus. Izzy is blocking guys like Worrell, Salas, Motte and is a FA at the end of this season. Reyes will never be given another shot in St. Louis, I’m afraid.

These players will bring back SOMETHING and they will free up opportunity for the players with talent playing at the lower levels.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2008 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

nah

I liked it much better last year when it was all gloom and doom too*

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve seen nothing of Mather that makes me think he’ll ever be a full time player, nor have I seen anything that says he is “ready” for the bigs.

Salas, Motte, and Worrell aren’t ready. You really want to argue that?

by SoonerfanTU on Jun 14, 2008 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

what trade deadline?

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 14, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

you said

they should have traded those guys by the trade deadline… I thought the deadline was later in the season. that’s all.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 14, 2008 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Past tense on thought

future tense on action.

Their mindset should not have changed. Their mindset should have always been to move these parts to a) continue the rebuilding, b) to refill the farm system, c) get value in 2009 for players who won’t be here.

If we could get David Freese for the charred remains of Jim Edmonds, I have to imagine we can get something for Duncan, Izzy, Lohse and Reyes.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

my thoughts

the prospect of a brewery sale doesn’t really bug me, and it seems kinda funny to see a republican governor expressing interest in a government blockade on free market activity. i don’t mean to open a big can of worms on that, but there it is.

i wasn’t depressed by the blowout, and i enjoyed several parts of it. the standing ovation for so taguchi was great, the ejection hijinx were interesting, and i always get a kick out of watching a position player pitch. i don’t think springer threw intentionally, and should not have been warned but not ejected. it just doesn’t make sense to me that we’d want to burn through another bullpen arm just to send a pointless message. i also think that the phillies’ pitcher should have been instantly ejected after the trigger-happy precedent was set.

i’m not doom and gloom about any of it, really. albert has been on shaky physical footing for a while. i didn’t necessarily expect to see carpenter this year. i think wellemeyer has shown marked improvement, but that was good fortune. didn’t expect anything out of mulder. clement seemed iffy too, but i’ll call that a disappointment so far. the only thing that’s even surprising to me, and thus annoying, is wainwright going down. i still see that as an opportunity to see stuff like jaime or a converted mcclellan, though.

i wouldn’t be in favor of making any hasty decisions, and i don’t think a “veteran presence” will stablize the team, or even that the team on a whole requires stabilization. i’d like to see a better middle infield, but wouldn’t literally bet the farm on it at this point. i think we’re in an arguably enviable position by being in wildcard contention at this stage of the year and an ability to flip switches that could propel us into player development or playoff contention. as a cardinal fan, there’s still a lot to love. even in this state, if you want to call it that, i like this year much better than the last.

by astrostl on Jun 14, 2008 1:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Everybody that's in competition with us lost last night

Cubs
Marlins
Brewers
Astros
Dodgers

The Braves won, but I haven’t seen anything out of them that suggests they’ll push toward the playoffs this season. Especially with all the injury troubles they’re starting to have.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 14, 2008 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, it looks like I might actually get to watch this afternoon's game on Fox

since the scrubs are playing already and the ChiSox are playing tonight. I’m pretty damn excited about that, kind of tired to listening to games on the radio

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 14, 2008 1:42 PM EDT reply actions  

I have DirecTv

and it’s on station #32. that’d be awesome if you could tell me, cuz it will change my afternoon plans

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 14, 2008 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eckstein just hurt us again

His error just led to 4 unearned Cubs runs against Halladay.

by birdo rojo on Jun 14, 2008 1:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Renteria would have had it!

Oh, sorry. Force of habit.

Well who the hell can see forever?

by Alxfritz on Jun 14, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

i really thought that when Eckstein was let go

his defense would stop hurting this club.
To quote a great pitcher:

“Argh!”

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

man

hallady vs marquis, you’d think the Jays would be the favorites (if they managed to score a run).

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 14, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cards Medical Staff

I LOL’d, how about you? Funny joke, tell it at Christmas parties.

Miles in '08

by Zoop on Jun 14, 2008 2:00 PM EDT reply actions  

The latest Bird Land

I think that maybe DG misquoted APu. He obviously should have put it down as “What can you say, mang? Everything happens for a reason”

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 2:08 PM EDT reply actions  

No Colby; It'll be two pitchers...

Izzy has been activated and Reyes has been recalled. I’m sure that lifts morale in the clubhouse after a crushing defeat yesterday. On the other hand, if Izzy comes out and dominates, it really could.

Meanwhile, Reyes continues to get jerked around.

Today might be interesting…. and not necessarily in a bad way; but maybe.

by AndyB83 on Jun 14, 2008 2:39 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't understand.

People bitch when Reyes starts for the Cardinals.

People bitch when Reyes is a reliever for the Cardinals.

People bitch when Reyes gets sent down to Memphis to start.

People bitch when he doesn’t get recalled to the Majors.

People bitch when he does get recalled to the Majors.

Anyway, Go get ‘em kid.

by Evilfrog on Jun 14, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

And now...

... people are bitching about all the bitching.

by punditmoi on Jun 14, 2008 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's been happening for some time

though, principally, I agree w/ Evilfrog on this one

by chuckb on Jun 14, 2008 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just for the record...

No bitching from me… just an observation. I am in favor of Anthony Reyes; but I think we are kidding ourselves if we believe either of these promotions are out of trust; they’re out of necessity.

When (not if) Reyes gets out of STL, I’ll still be rooting for him… as long as he isn’t a Cub. Exhibit A: Jim Edmonds… but he redeemed himself a little by texting the Hungarian while a Cubs game was being played. Classic Jim, man.

Anyways, you wouldn’t want to wear out Miles’ arm, would you? Whoops. Just kidding.

by AndyB83 on Jun 14, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does anyone else think

Tony should have let AK pitch last night? That should be one of his roles on the roster.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

well he is the hitting version of a loogy

I can see why he would think he was the pitching version too

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

"hitting version of a loogy"

Especially since when he goes to bat, he usually makes One Out (or two!)

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 14, 2008 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

next time i post a lineup with him in it

that is his new nickname

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

and Jimmy texting Al

give me hope for him being a saboteur after all. this recent hot streak is just to throw the cubs off

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Honestly

I see this recent “hot streak” as a guarantee that Jim Edmonds will be a cub for a LONG time. He was about a milimeter from being released before he majically started hitting. The longer he’s a cub the better.

by Tackle Box on Jun 14, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Would be good for him.

But it would depend on who is staying before I say it would be good for us.

by Evilfrog on Jun 14, 2008 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

they have this prospect in high A

he looks like he might have a future ahead of him.
I will love him just for the name

Bring on Antonio

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

By the way...

Reyes in AAA: 3.28 ERA in 35.2 IP with 31 K’s against 14 BB’s… BABIP was .333; FIP was 3.72; GB% was 50

It’s been 26 games since Izzy’s taken the ball in the bigs. (Really? That long?)

by AndyB83 on Jun 14, 2008 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Reyes out of the pen?

I thought the point was to have him back as a starter.

I think I know where this is headed. Mather sent down with Worrell for 2 pitchers, Wellemeyer misses next start with elbow injury, Mather able to be recalled back to the MLB.

Cause otherwise, we’ve got a problem going into interleague play sending down bats that can’t be called back up.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2008 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like where I see it heading better

Reyes called up for a couple days to stabilize th bullpen
Reyes sent back down when interleague starts, Colby called up!

A man can have hope, right?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm telling you, keep watching......

I still think Reyes leaves with the Phillies. Sunday.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 14, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am with you jill

that still opens up a olace for Colby, plus we get the bastardo

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know.

I do know they have a long standing genuine interest in Reyes….....now would be a good time for them…get him into their system, have him ready to take over for the next starter that goes down. Moyer is 45; Hamels is a delicate Fabarge Egg, Eaton is erratic…..Reyes would only need to be mediocre to be good enough on their team…...
They do have a few lower minor pitching prospects and whoever is being blocked by both Utley/Rollins Bastardo, ha! I’d buy that jersey…...

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 14, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think maybe MLB

would try to make him change his name before he got called up

that would be the best seliing jersey ever!

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

They gave up on Gavin Floyd......the White Sox could have.

He sure had an ugly year last year. But they stuck with him, and look at him now…..some pitchers (catchers too) just take longer to figure it out. Reyes has had one year of starting spread over two seasons. Write him off if you want. But there’s a very long list of pitchers, some great, some good, and some just useful that took 1, 2, or even 3 seasons before they figured it out. Who knows if the Phillies get anything out of him-the coach is named Dubee. Gotta be an easy dude to work with with a name like that…....

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jun 14, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

the phuture phillies website

is nowhere near as awesome as Future Redbirds

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

That would be neat...but I think I am more inclined to agree with Hard Core and since there is

no news of this anywhere on the post dispatch I fear the next headline is Col down and Reyes up to fill his spot…

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 14, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Colby's not coming up

nor should he.

He wouldn’t play everyday here in St. Louis so he should stay at Memphis for the time being.

There’s absolutely no reason for him to come up and play twice a week. He, like Mather, needs to play so for right now, he belongs at Memphis.

by chuckb on Jun 14, 2008 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

My theory is

if he was to come up, they would know they would have to play him everyday. That way we could get away from the rotating outfield

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ballsy title for the post today RB

didn’t they used to kill the messenger for bad news?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 2:43 PM EDT reply actions  

yeah, i say shoot the messenger

blow the hole damn team up & wait for 09

but i’m crabby from lack of sleep, so my opinion really shouldn’t be listened to today.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jun 14, 2008 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

You say we're all gonna die one day

But Azru won’t die, he’ll just be replaced by up-to-date machinery

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 14, 2008 3:00 PM EDT reply actions  

isnt Azru

just a spambot that rebelled against his programming ala Kryten?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Indeed

That doesn’t mean he won’t be replaced by something faster and better ;)

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 14, 2008 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

And also

Hooray! Fox picked up the Cardinals today for me! :)

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 14, 2008 3:01 PM EDT reply actions  

up your's

F’ing ohio kicks me in the ass once again

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jun 14, 2008 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heh

Because Georgia is definitely Phillies/Cardinals territory?

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 14, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

"I"M IN GEORGIA"

that’s a line from the comic ron white. makes me laugh every time.

i’m surprised you don’t get the Braves vs Angels. kudos on your good luck this afternoon my good man..

i refuse to watch the red sox vs reds. i just won’t do it.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jun 14, 2008 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think Fox is showing Braves/Angels

It just said Sox/Reds, Cards/Phils, or Dodgers/Tigers

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 14, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

dodgers vs tigers?

yeah, that’ll be a ratings bananza.**

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jun 14, 2008 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Grrr

Just a walk and a Rolen Grand Slam. Thats all I want right now.

by Evilfrog on Jun 14, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

at the rate he's going

his arm will fall off in late July. Although he seems to be one of those “rubber arm” guys.

Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!

I don't care about your fantasy team.

by stltrav09 on Jun 14, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

but if he doesn’t get hurt, he’ll deserve some MVP votes…

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 14, 2008 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

BTW

If i was a cubs fan, I’d be furious that they brought him into a 6-0 ball game, bases loaded or not.

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on Jun 14, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

any reasonable Cub fan

would be worried that he’ll have arm troubles.

Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!

I don't care about your fantasy team.

by stltrav09 on Jun 14, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Screw you Zelasko

I better not be getting red sox -reds

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jun 14, 2008 3:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh wow

As if Kevin Kennedy wasn’t incompetent enough, they brought in Rob Dibble!

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 14, 2008 3:32 PM EDT reply actions  

I liked that with an OF

of All-Stars that include a light hitting high OBP guy, a guy with a broken hand and an ancient wonder, he took time to argue against the NL’s triple crown threat at 1B.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good news

They announcer just said that Tony will have the team ready to Rock-and-Roll. And that the Phillies shouldn’t expect the Keg party to continue.

Doesn’t Buck work for Fox? Couldn’t we have got him for this game?

by Evilfrog on Jun 14, 2008 3:52 PM EDT reply actions  

bench

With the Mather demotion, the bench now consists of Barton, Larue and two MI’s.
I can’t wait for the Looper pinch hitting opportunities in early innings.
I believe those who say Stavinoha isn’t a good choice, but why is that the case again?

by greenwichvillagecard on Jun 14, 2008 3:53 PM EDT reply actions  

What is up with the Post shouldn't they have a spot up on the roster change???

Also …No game thread?

On top of that MLB.COM teases me by putting up a t.v. link only to tell me it’s blacked out.

I’m getting Surly.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 14, 2008 3:57 PM EDT reply actions  

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