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the case FOR Tony ?

I apologize if this has already been discussed to death, but as one who was on that medium-sized bandwagon (pre-season) that LaRussa was NOT the man to be in charge of  a younger, have to scrap, quasi-rebuilding team... the dude (TLR) has done pretty well.

Like most of the rest of you, I have endured my little squabbles and head-scratching re TLR from time to time.  But other than batting Kennedy (GAK) in the 3 hole the second game of that doubleheader last week... and (once again) staying with Izzy too much when there was obviously some kind of problem, he seems to be staying out of the way and not ruining things with a lot of over-managing.

Your thoughts on this?  Should we be in a semi-apologetic mode, re TLR ?

 

 

 

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Can't help but wonder

if it was Walt all that time and not Tony . . .

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 12, 2008 3:01 AM EDT   0 recs

He still is relying on more 'seasoned' players

than trusting the talent of youth.

He’s a brilliant strategist during the game. He seemingly pulls the right levers on almost every late game substitution (no, the 6th inning doesn’t count).

I think if you gave LaRussa a team of all players under the age of 25, he’d probably win 129 games. If you tied his hand on not being able to use proven commodities and instead let him micromanage the game with a whole roster full of guys that could be interchangeable, he’d probably be at his best.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 12, 2008 3:36 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

At some point experience does play a role. See the LA Dodgers...

You need some vets. We have also been fortunate that the kids coming up have a good head on thier shoulders. I would like to think part of that is knowing the heritage of the Cardinals and knowing that is how you have to play if you want to play for Don Tony.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 12, 2008 10:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

LA has too much experience?

Or too little? I’m confused.

They have their fair share of veterans:

Jeff Kent, Nomar, Juan Pierre, Andruw Jones, Gary Bennett, Rafael Furcal, Derek Lowe, Brad Penny, Jason Schmidt, Scott Proctor, Chan Ho Park, Mark Sweeney.

Now, a fair share of these veterans are on the DL…

by bgh on Jun 12, 2008 12:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That not how it is

the old guys are throwing fits because the young guys are taking their spots. The old guys ran the manager out last year, so the Dodgers in their infinite wisdom went and got a ‘players’ manager to keep the peace with the overpriced, over the hill veterans.

The Dodgers should be playing all their youth, at every position.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 12, 2008 2:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm just making judgements on what I heard.

I remember someone saying the kids are more concerned with putting up gaudy stats than winning the game which seems to be the exact opposite of our kids.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 12, 2008 6:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah

Gonzo got interviewed last year and bitched and moaned that he wasn’t playing, even though he was doing shitty and Matt Kemp and Ethier were tearing the cover off the ball. His argument was that they didn’t understand “how to win,” even though they were routinely posting 2-4’s and whatnot compared to his O-fers with the occasional solid smart baserunning play. Basically his complaint was “Dammit kid, sit there and watch me underperform you so you can learn leadership and professionalism!!!” I think that whole “wanting to win” thing is a bit overrated, considering that if you put up good numbers you’ll do more to help your team than sitting in the dugout, taking O-fers, and telling good jokes and “leading.”

LA’s struggles have a lot more to do with a lot of players playing baseball poorly than a veteran vs. kid internal struggle. Lowe and Penny have been disappointing, Furcal is injured, Kent is old, Kemp isn’t hitting home runs, Loney has come back to Earth, and Turtle, er Martin can’t do everything. Their leading home run hitter is at like 5 or something.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jun 12, 2008 7:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

except for SS

but Furcal is hurt

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 12, 2008 7:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Walt’s approach seemed to play into a comfort zone of dealing with known quantities. I think Tony liked the stableness it presented. Tony still holds onto some of those staples from the Walt era (Even this year he’s taken a while to let go of some of the vets to allow the kids in. Ludwick’s platoon after he started lighting up, Perez’s “week and a half too late” call up, Kennedy over Ryan) but he’s getting better.

My mom was a math teacher in HS for over 20 years. She was about to quit and do something else when she was offered to teach 6th grade. She loves it, completely refereshed and still to this day is going.

I liken that thought process to where Tony is now.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 12, 2008 3:43 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well

I’d have to say that Kennedy in the 3 hole was one of the more sensible things that Tony has done given the context of the situation.

  • Double header, so you want to keep the guys fairly stable between games
  • day game ensured a series win, which ultimately is what we’re trying to do at a microlevel
  • albert was out, so rather than shift, use the 3 hole for whomever your extra body is
  • kennedy had actually did pretty well in the two hole earlier this year under the guise of getting pitches to hit in front of Albert, so in the 3 hole would place him in front of Luddy, then Glaus who homered in the day game

Kennedy in the 3 hole sounds awful anyday, had it been me he would of been on the bench as it is. But if you’re going to play him, that was probably the best time to do so and it gave him the best chance to do something with out sending ripples across the lineup.

That aside, I think Tony has a career of communicating and getting the most out of his vets. This year having so many new faces and hungry players who are new to “the show”, instead of needing to communicate, he can just guide them on what he wants them to do. He’s a tinkerer, always has been. For the most part, it works.

If anyone is going to teach these kids to “win with what you’ve got”, it’s Tony.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 12, 2008 3:34 AM EDT   0 recs

I think he knew the criticism was being heaped on him

for the way he had treated younger players in the past. That isn’t to mean that he treated them ‘poorly’ so to speak but as Bernie has said over and over again, he wasn’t there to teach young players to play. I think he also caught a lot of flack for the way he embarrassed Brendan Ryan last year.

This year, he’s turned over a new leaf. He’s gone out of his way to compliment Brian Barton when he comes off the field after making a good play. He’s seemed to have more ‘words’ for the younger guys when he goes out to get them off the mound, which I would assume he isn’t saying “Hey, you blow kid”.

I think LaRussa is making more of an effort to help the kids along since it was probably made clear to him in the offseason that ‘this is what you get to work with, and it’s only going to get younger’.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 12, 2008 3:41 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

agreed

I think the aggressiveness in the Minors is something that really gives Tony something to believe in. Which is why I think Mo and Tony will be fine together. The system under him has changed in a way to not handcuff him with a status quo situation, but the side effect is that he can’t hold guys back or handcuff them because they don’t have a “known quantity”.

This era suits Tony’s style of managing more than the previous one, and I’m betting that he’s gradually learning that.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 12, 2008 3:50 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

When AK was slotted in the three spot, I opined that someone should send Tony

the fun video at Rivergarden for patients with dimensia. I was criticized, but I still don’t retract the thought.

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Jun 13, 2008 8:49 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

prevailing theory seems to state that lineups don’t matter all that much, but according to the book:

Your three best hitters should bat somewhere in the #1, #2 and #4 slots. Your fourth- and fifth-best hitters should occupy the #3 and #5 slots. The #1 and #2 slots will have players with more walks than those in the #4 and #5 slots. From slot #6 through #9, put the players in descending order of quality.

there’s a writeup at hardball times from 2006 on constructing lineups:

One of the problems is that teams often put their highest OBP batter in the third position, but the #3 spot is the one LEAST likely to lead off the second inning. James said it, others agreed, and The Book confirms it. In addition, The Book found that the #3 hitter has more plate appearances with two out and nobody on. So the run value of every hit (except the home run) is lower in the third position than in any other of the top five positions. That’s why they recommend putting your fifth-best hitter in the three spot.

as mentioned in the article, the book also predicts a minor gain by batting the pitcher eighth.

mitchel lichtman aka “MGL” is a co-author of the book and creator of UZR. he works for the cardinals…

by astrostl on Jun 14, 2008 6:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I will say this

If we contuine to win and continue to be one of the 3 best teams in the NL as we are right now without Pujols & Wainwright over the next month…then this will be by far the best Tony has ever managed in his career.

The next 3 weeks will not only be a big test to the team but to Tony as well. If we do end up in the playoffs Tony is the unquestionable manager of the year.

My only gripe with Tony this year has been his stubbornness with putting Izzy and C. Duncan in games they shouldn’t be in. But that’s Tony’s loyality with these guys and even though I may not like it at times…it can be understood.

by KYCards on Jun 12, 2008 3:55 AM EDT   0 recs

yeah

I was thinking about that the other day. You want to get all riled up when it comes to what Tony is doing, but then when after the game he presents his argument, you walk away “I don’t like it, but I understand”. He’s not Dusty Baker by any means, he may seem insane with a decision, but the aftertaste usually slides under “reasonable approach”

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 12, 2008 4:01 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Tony is in somewhat of a bad spot with Chris Duncan

because I’m sure Tony loves Chris and has known him his whole life and of course his best friend is Dave Duncan. This is why Chris will be given every chance to have a spot on the team even if he doesn’t deserve it. It’s also why Tony barks at the St. Louis media when they were calling for Chris to be sent down. This has put Tony in a real tough position. I do admire Tony for having loyality to his longtime friend..but if Chris contiunes to struggle at some point Tony is going to have to do what is in the team’s best interest.

This is why kids of coaches or managers shouldn’t be on the same team…to avoid this type of situation.

by KYCards on Jun 12, 2008 4:10 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Chris did reward Tony with some good numbers over the past two years, and Chris while not the most fluid has busted his ass on his defensive side. At least in the context of right now Chris is able to get on base. Something Kennedy is a far cry from.

I do think there is some loyalty concerns, but I also think there’s a hint of a kid who can and has shown to be able to belt the ball, but can’t find his swing.

I agree on the “friends of the family/family” and coaches scenario, not because it has been proven to be divisive, but because it makes the fan base points moot.

And Tony protects a lot of his guys, I wish he’d do it more on the field and less in the post game conferences. But I’m glad he does.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 12, 2008 4:22 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

To Add

I am a proponent of Chris being in the Minors and not back and forth. But I don’t think the minors is even going to work for Chris.

If it were me, I’d give Chris some bogus DL scenario for a couple/three weeks and send him down to Florida. Then I’d fly McGuire over to one on one with him.

If Mark can help Skip over the phone, being the slap stick that he is, imagine how a one on one scenario would go with a guy who has some legit power. When Albert comes back, keep Mather up for a while and do that with Chris. Chris does have upside, regardless of who daddy is.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on Jun 12, 2008 4:29 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

Bring in McGwire!

"Back in the day when I played, a pitcher had 3 pitches: a fastball, a curveball, a slider, a changeup and a good sinker pitch." - Mike Shannon

by nomar34 on Jun 12, 2008 9:02 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hear, hear! Let's not needle the Roidbirds!

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Jun 13, 2008 8:52 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

a manager should be fired if he consistently makes decisions that he knows to be against the team’s best interest in the short, medium, and long term. i don’t believe that larussa is doing this with duncan, but i’m surprised that those who do aren’t calling for his head.

by astrostl on Jun 14, 2008 6:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

if we outperform without pujols & wainwright i’ll personally credit the team, discredit their opponents, and/or chalk it up to variance before laying it at tony’s feet. the manager is in there, but i’d be pleased with anyone that knows how to manage personalities and makes reasonable decisions.

by astrostl on Jun 14, 2008 6:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree with this

“Then I’d fly McGuire over to one on one with him.”

I don’t think Hal McRae knows how to fix Chris…Chris loves McGwire and has had success after he has worked with McGwire. I would think Tony could even get Mark to come to St. Louis for a few days to work with Chris…but we all know Mark doesn’t want any member of the media to see him and I guess it would be too big of a distraction if Big Mac came to a series at Busch because we all know the ESPNs of the World would flock there if they found out. So sending Chris to Mark is a “unknown place” would be a great idea.

by KYCards on Jun 12, 2008 4:37 AM EDT   0 recs

I'm one of those who was upset about

DeWitt bringing Tony back. And he still drives me insane at least 3 times a week. But sometimes we don’t appreciate what we have. I recently had the thoroughly depressing experience of going to Camden Yards, where O’s fans were clearly in the minority, and watch the local nine get pummelled, as usual, by the Red Sox, and have to take the shit from the rabid Boston fans surrounding me. Now I can handle that, except that I also had to watch the O’s mail in another sloppy, lazy, brain-dead performance. The kind of performance TLR would never allow his team to get away with. So I’ll tip my cap to Tony’s relentlessness; I wish there were more managers with that approach.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 12, 2008 9:15 AM EDT   0 recs

I've always

been a TLR apologist. He maddens me often, but I always believe deep down he has a plan-and that plan generally has a way of working out. He’s relentless, and I like that. Looking around the rest of the league, who else would anybody want to be managing this team right now? Many a manager would have been in full-choke mode from the beginning of this season (not to mention last year). Lou Piniella, for instance, got a half-billion dollar team handed to him, and they’re still not running away with anything. Tony has done more with less the last couple of years than any other skipper. It’s time to give Tony some props-he’s earned them.

by rockin redbird on Jun 12, 2008 10:35 AM EDT   0 recs

They would be running away with it

If it weren’t for the Cardinals :)

But they do have the best record in baseball right now

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on Jun 12, 2008 12:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I hate being a Cubs apologist, but....

No, I mean, I REALLY hate being a Cubs apologist, but on that point, I think the fact that the Cubs aren’t running away with this division is certainly not a knock on Piniella, but rather just a testament to how well TLR has the Cardinals playing right now.

The Cubs, as Mr Redbird said before me, do have the best record in baseball, and seem to find a way to win games in all different fashions. Piniella’s certainly doing a fabulous job, but you’re still right in the fact that TLR is doing almost as much as Piniella with far less in the way of known commodities in his lineup.

by mtalken on Jun 12, 2008 5:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Exactly

The Flubs have the best record in baseball, while the Cards have the 3rd highest number of wins in the NL. I don’t think the Flubbies can win EVERY game. I’ll just say that it isn’t the Comedy Central anymore.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jun 12, 2008 7:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

after today's game

it actually does look like they can win every game

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 12, 2008 7:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll tell you what...

...and this makes me sick saying this, very, very, very, superduper black plague sick…but the Cubs have a pretty damn good squad. Marmol and Wood make games seven innings long, and they have some guys who can flat out rake. Soto has been amazing and Ryan Theriot, of all people, is OBPing at a .400 clip. In an odd sort of factoid, Derrek Lee’s OBP is a rather pedestrian .339 right now, which surprises me personally. If they get any pitching at all from their starters they’ll be the team to beat in the NL…I’m pretty sure I just vomited in my mouth a little, or maybe a lot.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jun 12, 2008 7:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah...

My comments weren’t a slam on Lou—he’s doing a fine job with a great squad. Which, in my opinion, isn’t really worth that much praise. All that can really be said is that he’s not overmanaging a bunch of great players. However, I wonder how it would all shake out if he were managing the Birds right now and Tony was at the helm of the Blueboys. I have a feeling Chicago would be a good ten games or more up on everybody if that were the case.

by rockin redbird on Jun 12, 2008 8:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

if the cubs were +10 or more games they would be at a minimum .782 win percentage.

by astrostl on Jun 14, 2008 6:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yup X 10

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Jun 13, 2008 8:53 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Piniella is the reason they are playing so well.

Someone needs to kidnap him or send a fake letter to Zambrano saying Lou is sleeping with his girl and let Big Z take care of the rest.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jun 13, 2008 9:53 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Tony is the man

My friends and I frequently discuss our favorite Cardinals are. I’ll be sitting at a bar or at someone’s house watching the game and out of nowhere someone will say, “Quick, name your favorite Cardinal.” The question gets many responses. Some say Pujols without hesitation. I also hear a lot of Yadis and Wainers.

I always have a different answer though. I always say Tony. Tony is my favorite Cardinal. I mean we’re talking about one the best managers of all time. I mean in the history of baseball, Tony LaRussa has the 3rd most wins….........3rd!! This guy is very unappreciated. I don’t think negative comments about this kind of guy are a luxury we can afford. I just revel in the fact that we have one of the best managers every managing one of the best players ever.

Every year I think that Tony is deserving of manager of the year but it often eludes him. Look at this year for example. Where were the Cardinals picked to finish? 4th….5th? Not with Tony though. He does more with minimal talent than any manager ever.

I’m only 23 so Tony is the only manager I’ve really known. I remember the ass end of the Torre era but the Birds were terrible back then.

I just think that Tony is the best Manager in baseball and he deserves an incredible amount of credit again this year. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, “The season we lose Tony LaRussa is the season we stop becoming a contender for years to come. He makes this team win when everyone else has counted us out.

"And that's a winner. A World Series winner for the Cardinals."

by Bird Watcher on Jun 12, 2008 12:04 PM EDT   0 recs

Good post in favor of TLR; that said, when Herzog was managing, the world learned of "Whitey Ball"

That term became emblematic of manufactured runs, speed, defense and finesse. Don’t see anyone pushing “Tony Ball”. What would that term connote?

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Jun 13, 2008 8:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

the White Rat

is my all time favorite manager, with TLR being second

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 13, 2008 3:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

and

I will always remember one amazing factoid: in 1982, the Cardinals won the NL and the whirl serious… and yet they were DEAD LAST in home runs in the MAJORS.
Whitey-ball, indeed!

by the Tewk on Jun 13, 2008 4:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

true, but the 1982 cards were also 1st in OBP and 2nd in defensive efficiency rating.

by astrostl on Jun 14, 2008 6:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pretty much inventing the use

of the modern bullpen among other things.

Well who the hell can see forever?

by Alxfritz on Jun 13, 2008 4:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Who else besides?

For me, it comes to this: Who else besides TLR would your rather have managing your baseball team that can get the results (wins) that he does? Anyone, currently managing or not managing, anywhere. Who else would be better? There are maybe a few names that MIGHT be an improvement, and a few more names because you like someone else or don’t like TLR, but who else is there that could do a better job with the Cardinals? I think this season, you’d have to honestly say that maybe one or two others could do as well, but no one could do any better.

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

by palampe on Jun 12, 2008 1:49 PM EDT   0 recs

The only other guy I'd want

would Be Bobby Cox.

Well who the hell can see forever?

by Alxfritz on Jun 12, 2008 5:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

LaRussa

I’ve always enjoyed having LaRussa sitting in the dugout for my squad. He’s very clever in-game wise, he does his homework, and truly understands the ins-and-outs of the game. Hey, and he’s not Dusty Baker. Although LaRussa did use the word “base-clogger,” which is problematic.

Anyway, I’m now going to pile on Baker. He’s had Adam Dunn and Edwin Encarnacion lay down sac bunts in late inning situations, even those guys are, well, good at hitting baseballs a long way, and not at bunting. Then, when Encarnacion hit a bomb, he told the media that he couldn’t let Encarnacion swing away there, but hoped he would foul two off so he could hit an 0-2 home run to win the game. WTF? He also told the media that he didn’t like Joey Votto and Dunn’s approaches at the plate, and wanted them to swing more. Votto was one of the top IF prospects in baseball going into this season, and is off to a pretty good start, but yeah he should just hack away like Corey Patterson, who was so good at hitting baseballs. And Dunn’s issue isn’t his approach, it’s the holes in his swing. He crushes “his” pitches, and knows it, so he waits for them. Usually it leads to him not getting out, but Dusty’s right…He’d be better off swinging away and making more outs and hitting fewer bombs and getting on base less, like Corey Patterson.

So anyway, yeah, LaRussa isn’t him. Cool.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jun 12, 2008 7:11 PM EDT   0 recs

Tony Larussa

deserves a TON of credit. last year, he almost had that team back into the thick of things (until the media extravaganza around Ankiel ruined it). And this year, he has been giving everyone playing time, and being ultra creative with everything. You gotta like this guy, even though you can easily say “Why?” a million times over the season with his novel approach.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 12, 2008 7:22 PM EDT   0 recs

Spot on, Cards Fan

Recall the doom and despair that accompanied the team with its roster out of the spring.? That this club is faring so well despite injuries and playing (almost) unknowns in key positions is remarkable. Perhaps shout out “ARF” for TLR.

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Jun 13, 2008 9:00 AM EDT   0 recs

that style of managing almost guarantees good team chemistry

I know it’s an intangible, but if you don’t have a lot of superstars on your team, you need that to be competitive. hell, I’d say that it’s even more important than having great players on your team (unless you’re the BoSox, their ‘04 team was just ridiculous, and now with Papelbohn, crazy). Anyway, the shuffling of players is kind of annoying and a little bit hard to follow, but it does seem to work quite well. I knew we had a chance at the beginning of the season to get into the playoffs despite all the ?s just having one of the winningest managers in MLB history

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 13, 2008 3:45 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

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