Rich Harden
I am not necessarily advocating trading for Rich Harden. In fact, I am not. However, i am curious as to what it would take for the Cardinals to acquire him. Meaning, how much do you think Billy Beane is expecting in return. For instance, could Duncan & Reyes & a B- prospect get him or would Beane start all negotiations with Rasmus? I dont know why I am curious because I dont think there is any more room in the Cardinal's trainer room for Harden.
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Rich Harden
This guy is such a marvel. He could literally, when healthy, use one pitch to get through an entire game. He is so ridiculously filthy that if he ever came to the NL and stayed healthy for the entire season, he’d win the Cy Young easy.
That said, I don’t think I’d ever deal with Billy Beane ever again.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 2:06 PM EDT 0 recs
+1
no hurlers from the beanman. they keep health issues form everyone a lot better than the birds
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!
by sportsman on
Jun 10, 2008 6:34 PM EDT
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One thing you cant fleece...
Being so shrewd and also a genuis at making one sided trades, is there a reason Mr Bean cant put a team that can win an AL crown or A WS on the field…..Acquiring pennants and WS rings looks pretty good compared to acquiring players with upside for nothing in return.
by cardschinmusic on
Jun 11, 2008 7:41 AM EDT
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he'll get it eventually
the problem with the playoffs is that, in small sample sizes, the best team is only going to win slightly more than half the time. So even if he was able to build the “best team” by being smarter than a lot of other really smart people, he’d have to make it to the playoffs a number of times to “expect” to win at least once. (not sure how to do this math off the top of my head but if you really, really care I can figure it out with some research).
But Beane is handicapped by finances; his team will almost never BE the “best team” going in to the playoffs. it’s one thing to build a team that can beat the rangers, angels and mariners (esp with bavasi at the helm) for 1/4th of what the yankees or 1/3rd of what the red sox or 1/2 of what the {tigers and angels} spend; it’s another to go into the playoffs against the red sox, yankees, AND {tigers or angels}, and have to beat them all. The odds are greatly against him.
"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton
by SleepyCA on
Jun 12, 2008 1:02 AM EDT
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Well said…he is fighting an uphill battle. Several times they’ve been a pitcher or position player short of a championship caliber team going into Sept/Oct and not been able to get one (without getting a “Beansized” fleecing in return). It works so much better when the needs are stacked in the other direction.
by cardschinmusic on
Jun 12, 2008 7:59 AM EDT
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I dunno
I’d approach it.
Billy B tends to let other GM’s screw themselves, Walt chased a work horse with Mulder and gave everything for it. Mulder was as advertised and we still took it.
By time we got him he was around 1,000 innings in workhorse like fashion.
He can’t sell Harden the same way, Harden hasn’t had the workload like Mulder did, and none of his injuries really have been detrimental to his pitching.
I’d have him come over, scruitinize the hell out of his body and make sure there isn’t anything that we can’t handle. See how he goes the rest of the year and look at signing him for a reasonable rate down the road.
The A’s have done some major cost cutting compared to last year, he’s getting $4.5M. 4.5M for someone who can’t guarantee any real innings doesn’t have leverage. But the upside is MASSIVE if harden can get reasonably healthy.
I just don’t see how a conversation isn’t warranted in fear of how Billy B. may come to the table, it’s all out there and unloading may help him as well.
Why do I want him?
Because if he can’t do 200 innings a year, I don’t care. Let’s see if he can do 70-80.
Harden would be a very, very impressive closer. Perez can setup. To me? That would rival Joba and Riv in a badass and serious way.
And one thing no one can reasonably complain about, ex-A’s over here closing, because all in all they’ve done a reasonable job.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 11, 2008 8:11 AM EDT
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interesting
haven’t thought of the potential closer angle. That would be sick, if you could figure out a way not to have to use him more than once every couple of days.
regardless, I can think of few players I would rather have start in the post-season than rich harden. If you can keep him healthy that long, you have a big advantage.
"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton
by SleepyCA on
Jun 12, 2008 1:06 AM EDT
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you could also have rotating closers
with K-Mac stepping into Perez’s setup role when Harden needs days off from closing. Talk about 3 badass options in 2 roles there
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jun 22, 2008 11:16 AM EDT
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I'll pass
We have enough pitchers in the infirmary as it is…
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on Jun 10, 2008 2:10 PM EDT 0 recs
He can be so incredible......he had a 9 pitch 3 strike out inning in his last start.
He is hurt all the time and I don’t see Mr. Beane pulling a fleece with this particular player. Need I remind you that the last time we gave up some no name minor leaguers and a solid reliever for an incredible pitcher to Mr. Beane we got severely burned. Especially after The A’s flipped ONE of the player for 6 players-2 who are in their starting rotation right now. Nope. If Billy’s giving you something, no matter how good you think it is, know that you are probably wrong. If Billy’s taking something no matter how bad you think it is, know that you are probably wrong. He rarely gets burned on deals….I’d be damn sure I had at least one CYA player in any deal with the A’s.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jun 10, 2008 2:19 PM EDT 0 recs
He has gotten burned
though. The Tim Hudson deal was one sided.
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 10, 2008 2:22 PM EDT
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You are right......but I'm pretty sure that's the one and only time he had nothing to show for a player.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 10, 2008 2:41 PM EDT
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Aside from the Giambi and Tejada non-trades
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on
Jun 10, 2008 3:01 PM EDT
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I still would not trade with him without big red lights flashing in the background.....
He has come out on top, way on top, most all of the time.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 10, 2008 3:11 PM EDT
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agreed there
especially for such for such obviously questionable goods
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on
Jun 10, 2008 3:20 PM EDT
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Giambi turned into Blanton and Jeremy Brown via the draft.
and Tejada turned into Huston Street.
Sometimes it’s better to keep a guy for a half a season and get the supplemental draft picks.
by mikev on
Jun 17, 2008 11:13 AM EDT
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Best pitcher in baseball when healthy, bar none
The thing to like about Harden: lots of injuries—none structurally damaging to his arm. So the stuff is still there. But that doesn’t mean he’s not a man of glass, and you don’t trade valuable goods for the man of glass. Because glass breaks. Shatters, even. And he has cracked, but sooner or later he might shatter and then, well, we all know what happened when Mulder shattered. You can’t pick up the pieces.
Yeah, I dragged that metaphor out too long intentionally. Heh.
Some stats:
2007-Present: 12 GS, 68.1 IP, 79 K, 2.90 ERA
2006-Present: 21 GS, 115 IP, 128 K, 3.44 ERA*
2005-Present: 40 GS, 238 IP, 242 K, 3.03 ERA
*Three scoreless relief appearances omitted.
In other words, he strikes out more than one per inning, he’s been sick nasty even in the midst of his injuries—had a bit of a down year in 2006 (4.24 ERA), but sandwiched it with displays of sickdom in 2005 and 2007 (2.53 and 2.45 ERA, respectively). His ERA is under 3.00 again this year, and anyone who has watched him will tell you that he’s a dominant force.
And I saw him throw a 91 MPH changeup once and have the hitter out on his front foot. He was pumping 100 MPH gas at the time. My jaw rested on the floor.
I’d say get him if he didn’t cost much—problem is, it’s Beane, so he will. As a result, I’m not even considering him to be an option. If he were always healthy, we wouldn’t have the prospects to fetch him. And because he’s always hurt, he’s not worth the prospects it will take.
But man, would he look good in red…
by mojowo11 on Jun 10, 2008 4:49 PM EDT 0 recs
Maybe the A's ought to just keep him.......
behold that excellence between the trips to the DL. He’s a young man…..wonder if he should just sit out a season, let everything rest and heal, and maybe his injuries will clear. He’d still have time to have a good career.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on
Jun 10, 2008 5:46 PM EDT
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I'd see what it would take....
Just depends on the price. If Billy was willing to give him up for a package of good not great Cards like: Duncan, Reyes, and Bryan Anderson, I’d think about it, but ultimately, I wouldn’t be able give up Anderson in this deal….. I just don’t think Dunc and Reyes would get it done…. And I think someone else with deeper pockets would give up more than we would be willing to….
by Lawless on Jun 10, 2008 6:05 PM EDT 0 recs
I don't know if you'd have to give him up
I mean, to entertain it a little.
Dunc’s Daddy still has ties over there and would probably be ok with his son going over there (if, as everything you hear assumes you would have to get some dad approval). Duncan with the A’s looks like something plausible.
Duncan can fill a role over there nicely going into next year assuming Thomas won’t be back (I’d say he’s only over there due to being so damn cheap, idiot Jays). Cust can DH and he can play LF (it’s not a downgrade in defense), or vise versa.
If anyone can help his lefty splits it would be the A’s.
He’s going to be reasonably cheap, which fits into the A’s small market program.
Reyes also would be reasonably cheap and does appear to have an upside as long as he’s out of the Cards uniform. It would give them a little bit of depth if anything.
For a guy that’s barely pitched the past couple of years, has injuries blocking his upsides and has a 4.5 million dollar salary to finish out the season.. those two may be enough.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 11, 2008 8:31 AM EDT
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And...
Duncan is a high OBP/high SLG when healthy and hitting, and Beane covets those guys.
The problem, as I see it, is that Beane never gives anything away for free—just look at what he asked for Joe Blanton for chrissakes!!! And Blanton isn’t half the pitcher that Harden could be if he was healthy.
I would love to have him if he’s going to stay healthy, but I don’t think that it’s worth giving up more than Duncan and one farmhand to get him because we already have a MASH unit of a pitching staff as it is.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on
Jun 11, 2008 10:34 AM EDT
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could be is the key word – and he has no leverage with Harden. Harden is a heavy contract on a team that dramatically down shifted salary, he’s had two bad years they’ve been trapped with. I don’t think he’ll ask much.
I also believe a lot more in Mo from what he’s shown thus far than I don’t. Mo was very smart across all of the things he’s done so far. Walt was on a glory hunt, we lost out.
and yeah, Duncan and Reyes made sense. I wouldn’t even consider more than that.
the thing I hate about it the most is that unless we pay for a hefty club option (no buyout) that we’d inherit or it’ll be a rental that ends this year. so there would have to be some contract wrangling. Cott’s didn’t say who his agent is.
Dunc I believe would be arb eligible next year and Billy may not like it.
and no, i’m not thinking mash unit either, which is why i’ve leaned towards limited workload instead of a rotation he probably can’t hold onto.
all hypothetical of course
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 11, 2008 1:21 PM EDT
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see, I dont think Beane gives up Harden for Duncan & Reyes. I think it would take a considerable amount more.
by njnick on
Jun 11, 2008 5:00 PM EDT
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as an A's fan, I don't think we have any interest in Duncan at all
We’re very deep in OF/1B types. Travis Buck, Ryan Sweeney, and Carlos Gonzalez are all under 25 with 4+ years of team control left, and Barton will be fine at 1B along with Cust at DH for the next 3 years.
If anyone wants Harden, they’re going to have to deal in pitching and middle infield prospects.
by MrIncognito on
Jun 16, 2008 9:51 PM EDT
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+1
Another A’s fan. Pitching (its like cash- always good) and 2B/SS/3B are the positions we need. Right handed hitting would also be desired. Duncan doesn’t look like a fit for us. And Reyes would be the worst pitcher on our team. I’m sorry, but this deal is not happening.
Sure you guys don’t want Joe Blanton?
by Mark Borgschulte on
Jun 16, 2008 11:41 PM EDT
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I could see someone like Boston taking a flyer......they like "stuff" guys
they could cover his injuries, and they have more good farm hands then they have spots for…..
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jun 10, 2008 8:26 PM EDT 0 recs
Harden is a beast
...It’s wierd…He’s always been hurt, but his mechanics aren’t really bad. The only flaws I see is that his finish isn’t ideal and that he isn’t very strong with his front side, but really there are worse things than those, and I don’t think they could fully explain his myriad of injuries.
He has some of the nastiest, filthiest, dirtiest stuff on the face of the earth. If he could put together full seasons he’d be in the class of Santana and Peavy, if not higher then those two. I heard a stat that he consistently leads the league in 95+ mph fastball percentage, but I don’t know the truth to that. Still though, chedd plus wicked breaking stuff leads to some sensational results.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jun 10, 2008 9:17 PM EDT 0 recs
What about
in a class of Papelbon and Rivera instead? Harden is one of the best bulldog pitchers I’ve grown up seeing. He fears no battles and he rarely carries scars from one. he has the out pitches, he has the heat.
A while back there was a pitcher who came up from the minors screaming greatness. Played the last half of the year in the bigs with ease. No issues what so ever, tons of talent.
Then he carried injury after injury that didn’t allow him to get back into a rhythm starting. It seemed everything was against him including a cancer scare. His manager was deadset against putting him in the bullpen because that would be akin “to using a ferrari as a cab (paraphrasing, I don’t remember the exact wordage).
He was traded to the A’s. We call him Izzy. And while he’s had issues in ‘06 and the collapse earlier this year, that’s 291 saves later with an excellent save rate compared to his peers.
If you ask me, lower Harden’s workload and use his tools for the utimate bulldog role, closer. Still use Perez as a one inning guy.. let’s just make it the 8th.
Now we can shut down two innings and make the game 7 innings long. Including the fact that we no longer have the 8th inning merry go round we’re getting accustomed to.
Just a thought
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 11, 2008 8:51 AM EDT
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A valid point in some regards
But the comparisons to Rivera, Papelbon, and Izzy are severely flawed ones.
Izzy, at least partially, made the change because he wasn’t succeeding as a starter. His rookie year was nifty (1995 – 2.83 ERA), but after that he posted ERAs of 4.77, 7.58, 4.73, and 6.51 in New York. He was traded to Oakland, made into a closer, and was an instant hit.
Rivera also failed as a starter - 10 starts, 5.51 ERA in his rookie year. The next year he spent in the bullpen (not closing) and posted a 2.09 ERA. His third year he found himself closing, saving 43 games, and posting a 1.88 ERA. He’s also more naturally suited for the role, seeing as how he’s basically a two-pitch pitcher. Harden throws a fastball (maybe two), a slider, a change, and a split. (Interesting note: FanGraphs is showing 13% of his pitches this year as “unidentified” - I wonder what the deal is with that?)
Papelbon was also considered a starter, but was forced into the bullpen by the pressing need for a closer after Foulke’s mysterious collapse. I don’t think anyone ever really thought he couldn’t start, and they almost moved him to the rotation at the beginning of last year. He was like Wainwright—a young stud filling in for a while in the pen. Wainwright made the transition to starter when Izzy returned, while Paps never needed to switch back due to a glut of starting pitching and a lack of a returning closer.
Unlike all these guys, Harden has shown that he’s a premiere starting pitcher when he can stay healthy. Might a move to the pen be better for his arm? Sure, I guess, maybe. But it would be an enormous waste on the level of making Santana a closer or Peavy a closer.
I say keep him starting, but be careful with him. Keep his pitch counts low. Give him extra rest when you can. Do everything you can to keep him healthy, even if it means only getting 150 innings out of him—but you simply don’t move a dominant starting pitcher to a relief role. 150 innings of a sub-3.00 ERA are way more useful than any closer.
by mojowo11 on
Jun 11, 2008 10:49 AM EDT
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Well, Izzy in 96’ was similar to Izzy in ‘06, anyways..
If we can get some starting innings out of him, great… seriously.
But I think we agree more than not, just different angles.
I think he may be a failed starter already. Not on any performance metric, but physically.
150 innings is what you laid out, well he hasn’t done that since ‘04 and hasn’t came close in the past two years (and may just challenge that this year barring anymore injuries)
at the end of the day we have 162*9 (1458 i believe) innings that need to be covered by pitching, or what’s possible to be covered.
With his stuff he very well could be an accomplished closer. It would also get past his fail point. His physical issues by easing the workload. He’d still take on 70’ish innings, but it’s a complicated 70’ish innings.
Either way I’m fine with, but the baby him along thing scares me as with all things medical and Cards, we’ve seen that play out badly as of late.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 11, 2008 1:14 PM EDT
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Yeah
I’m just saying that the thing that tends to push people to the bullpen isn’t health, it’s performance. It’s not unheard of, I guess, what with Kerry Wood closing for the Cubs these days—but Wood lost a lot of his stuff to injury, whereas Harden is as good as ever. You just can’t waste Harden’s ability in the pen. It would be a travesty.
Harden would probably be the best closer in the game if they went that way, seeing as how he’s already arguably the best starter. But as someone who thinks that closers are hugely overrated (even guys like David Weathers can get saves), I can’t help thinking it would be a ridiculous waste. I also think Harden will, at some point, stay healthy. It’s not like he’s dealing with compounding arm issues like the Woods and Priors of this generation, just nagging stuff (minor strains in shoulder and obliques)—with the exception of the elbow strain to the UCL, from which he seems to have recovered fully.
And for what it’s worth, there are probably more than 162*9 innings to cover, given all the pesky extra inning games, unofficial rainouts (though those don’t count, I guess), and the possibility of a one-game playoff. Maybe not, though, given the away games where don’t have to pitch the bottom of the ninth. Hard to know. Hmm.
Whatever. I think you’re right, we mostly agree. You just seem to value the closer’s job more highly than I do—after all, look at Franklin. He’s just a mediocre reliever and he’s getting it done, isn’t he?
by mojowo11 on
Jun 11, 2008 2:11 PM EDT
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162*9 seemed close considering away wins would cancel out most of the extras
We do mostly agree, and I’m not really wanting to slot him in closer without any recourse.
If he can handle the workload as a starter great, if not let’s not play the medical minefield and try and keep him there. Get him healthy and transform him.
I guess using physical limitations as a performance metric so to speak.
and Franklin has always been decent his leverage doesn’t contain inherited runners, or is played as a matchup
But yeah, he’s a guy who could do every 5th game 6/7 innings. But if he can’t, there’s a perfect place for him, that fits his skillset and workload limitations
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 11, 2008 2:59 PM EDT
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Papelbon
They were going to move Paps to the rotation before last season, but he had had so much success as a closer that they just decided not to mess with it. Plus, he really only throws two pitches, albeit two extremely good ones.
I agree with you on Harden though. I think it’s worth it to try to squeeze 100-150 innings out of the guy. His track record almost guarantees that those innings will be superb, so why not just bite the bullet and make sure you’ve got an insurance policy. Moving him to the pen would have to be a last ditch effort, and it’s no guarantee that that will cure your arm troubles anyway considering the stresses bullpen life can have on one’s health.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on
Jun 11, 2008 7:53 PM EDT
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Heck no.
Last time we traded the A’s for a pitcher, we lost Haren and got the best pitcher ever Mulder. Remind me how that worked out…
Prospects are good. Especially when they aren't rushed.
by CraveCase on Jun 11, 2008 12:29 PM EDT 0 recs
so..
with a new GM we only have an open table for teams that the old GM got him self screwed with glory hunting?
Keep in mind the main “sting”, of mulder ended up being compounded when he was resigned without throwing a ball post surg
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 11, 2008 12:56 PM EDT
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old GM didn't get himself*
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 11, 2008 1:01 PM EDT
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Agree/Disagree
I agree that trading with Oakland is okay, at the right price. Thing is, Beane always sets a high price. So I wouldn’t count on it being worth it.
The second part I disgaree with—the main sting of the Mulder trade has been not having Haren. Not having Mulder has been rough, but with the young, durable, cheap Haren out there playing ace for the A’s/D-Backs, that’s clearly the worst part.
Not having Barton hurts a little, too.
by mojowo11 on
Jun 11, 2008 2:13 PM EDT
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yeah, I’m typing in between meetings and the like, so I’m doing it quick as opposed to clear.
The trade was bad enough, Walt glory hunting is my opinion.
Then he resigned the fool, there’s the sting. Why do I approach it as the sting? Because we’re dealing with it now.
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 11, 2008 2:52 PM EDT
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Allen Craig
Seems like the A’s could use him. Not a lot of 3B prospects in their system, Chavez is really a shell of his old self, and Craig seems like the kind of offensive prospect they like. I think I’d deal Craig, Reyes, and Duncan for Rich Harden, esp. if we got a minor leaguer back as insurance. Maybe the injured De Los Santos, whose price has got to have been lowered by the recent TJ surgery? Or maybe James Simmons, who seems like a Cards kind of pitcher?
by siddfynch on Jun 12, 2008 3:29 AM EDT 0 recs
when you think about 3 prospects you may look into take his option year. Otherwise it’s really, really expensive for a rental. and his option year isn’t cheap
I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang
by AdjustedExpectations on
Jun 12, 2008 4:09 AM EDT
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Good point
I’m assuming we’d want his option year. Even so, all the more reason to ask for a prospect back, albeit one not rated as highly as Craig.
by siddfynch on
Jun 12, 2008 11:26 AM EDT
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A note on Harden from an A's fan
Interesting thing about Harden:
he is sticking to the fastball and straight (or in his case, falls off the table) change. Almost no splitters, curve-balls, or sliders. This may have something to do with his improved health. However, since he is pitching so well, you really hear almost nothing about it. His change up is so good that I’ve seen a number of announcers mistake it for a split-fingered fastball.
He has also lost about 3 mph, in the average, off of his fastball. He is doing really well at using this zone to change the speed on the pitch intentionally, and throwing 95+ when he needs to.
Both of these moves seem to be compensating for, or caused by his previous injuries. He cut the curveball after the elbow problem in 06, and drastically reduced the splitter this year. Part of the A’s organizational strategy in the lower minor leagues is to push the change-up, as it puts the least strain on a pitchers arm of the various off-speed pitches. It is interesting to see that same strategy reflected in the team’s most talented major league pitcher.
Despite this news, no pitching coach I’ve known has much of a problem with Harden’s motion. Playing up the role of the change up, and learning to pitch smarter may have been the trick to staying healthy Rich has been looking for. The only thing holding up a trade are:
1. The A’s are hardly out of contention in the AL.
2. Harden goes up in value every start he makes, in terms of
a. likelihood to start in the World Series for the receiving team, and
b. haul the A’s can get in return.
Harden has expressed an interest in playing in NY.
by Mark Borgschulte on Jun 19, 2008 4:45 PM EDT 0 recs











