fickle finger cont'd
by lboros on Jun 10, 2008 8:51 AM EDT
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Printquoting derrick goold’s article in this morning’s post-dispatch:
note the information that’s missing. the article doesn’t say definitively, "the mri revealed no ligament or tendon tears" --- and goold can’t find out whether or not that’s true, because club officials aren’t talking and the medical team (per club policy) is unavailable to talk to the press. makes you wonder. wainwright did tell the post, "surgery is not looking like something that is going to be needed" --- but it’s hard to place full stock in that statement, because it’s exactly what we heard initially when mulder hit the dl in 2006 and carpenter hit it last year. in both of those cases, the club knew from the outset that surgery might be needed, but the possibility was soft-pedaled while other, less intrusive treatments were attempted. when the injuries persisted, surgery was performed as a last resort.
you don’t have to be a conspiracy theorist to suspect that the same pattern might be unfolding here. from a medical perspective, there’s nothing at all sinister about it --- every person i’ve talked to who has any degree of medical experience (and i know a bunch of those people) tells me, "you don’t cut on a guy until you’ve exhausted the other options." pretty straightforward --- but the club has a secretive streak about injuries (you don’t suppose the sunglasses-wearing manager has anything to do with that, do you?) and, consequently, a credibility gap. attempting to fill that gap, i have consulted per MDAdvice.com about finger sprains:
- Mild (Grade I)--Tearing of some ligament fibers. There is no loss of function.
- Moderate (Grade II)--Rupture of a portion of the ligament, resulting in some loss of function.
- Severe (Grade III)--Complete rupture of the ligament or complete separation of ligament from bone. There is total loss of function. A severe sprain requires surgical repair.
wainwright’s injury would seem to fall into the "moderate" category, at a minimum; he clearly has some loss of function. and we can’t rule out "severe," ie total loss of function. back to MD Advice:
- Severe pain at the time of injury.
- A feeling of popping or tearing inside a finger or fingers.
- Tenderness at the injury site.
- Swelling in the finger.
- Bruising that appears soon after injury.
wainwright spoke of a popping sensation, but has reported no severe pain or tenderness; he specifically says there is no swelling. prognosis:
- Mild sprains--2 to 6 weeks.
- Moderate sprains--6 to 8 weeks.
- Severe sprains--8 to 10 weeks
those are average healing times; the cardinals no doubt are hoping wainwright (a professional athlete under close medical scrutiny) will heal much faster. but even if he were to heal in half the time, we’d be looking at a month-long disablement --- plus a couple of rehab starts after that to get his arm back into shape. and there’s always the chance that, like the carpenter and mulder injuries, wainwright’s finger won’t respond favorably to rest/rehab, necessitating a trip to the operating room.
from everything we can piece together, i’m gonna guess that if wainwright pitches again for the cardinals before late july, we probably should consider ourselves very fortunate. medical experts, speak up --- agree? disagree?
let’s just go with that for a moment; say he’s out for 6 weeks. it'll probably be longer, but just go w/ it. heading into the year, it was generally assumed that for the cardinals to make the playoffs, they’d have to keep themselves within striking distance until carpenter returned on or about august 1, and then try to make a late-season run once he rejoined the rotation. as of this morning, they lead the wild-card race by 2.5 games over florida and 4 over milwaukee, with houston and atlanta 5.5 back and the mets 6.5 games out. thanks to that cushion, they can afford to lose some ground in the standings to most of those teams over the next 50 games --- and let’s just prepare ourselves for that, because it very well might happen --- yet still be competitive when (we hope) one or both of carp / wainwright returns. ie, they can give back 10 games to the mets without getting hopelessly buried; they can give back 8 or 9 to the braves and still have a chance to catch up. if they lose big chunks of ground to all those teams and find themselves 5th or 6th in the wild-card race by the time carp / wainwright return, then forget it; they’re probably toast. but even if wainwright’s absent for the next 50 games, they have a reasonable chance to stay within 4 or 5 games of the wild-card lead until the rotation gets healthy. given their current bulge in the standings, that doesn’t seem to be asking the impossible.
and if wainwright needs surgery? definitely a possibility; i’ll worry about that if / when it happens. for the time being, i’m neither optimistic nor pessimistic about the cards’ playoff hopes. adjusting expectations? you betcha. but my expectations have been pretty modest all along. i’m looking forward to seeing boggs tonight; the rest will come in due time.
* * * * * * *
mgl published some UZR data, and it’s pretty consistent with john dewan’s plus/minus figures. both systems have adam kennedy as one of the top 2b glovemen in the league; both place troy glaus among the league leaders at 3b, though well behind scott rolen (who, by the way, hasn’t homered in over a month; he’s stuck on 2 for the year). and both defy the perception that chris duncan is a terrible defender in left field. bernie addressed this in a blog post not long ago, sifting through the fielding metrics to argue that duncan’s glovework is at least adequate. UZR reinforces that argument, ranking duncan as the second-best left fielder in the national league, trailing only paul mcanulty of the padres. i think it’s gotta be a sample-size blip, but it’d be difficult to argue that duncan has cost the cardinals a large number of runs w/ the glove this year --- at least so far. too much evidence to the contrary.
the other interesting note in the UZR data: edmonds rates as the worst centerfielder in baseball, and eckstein is the 2nd-worst shortstop. plus/minus doesn’t rate them quite that poorly, but they’re both about 6 plays worse than the guys who replaced them (ankiel and izturis). if you want two reasons for the improved performance of the st louis pitching staff, start with the defensive upgrades at cf and ss.
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Wagonmaker and surgery
The estimates I saw were that if he has surgery he is out for 4 months. That’s basically the rest of the season, so the team has nothing to lose by sitting him for 4-6 weeks first to see if rest will do the trick. If he still has to have surgery in, say, late July, he should still be back in plenty of time for spring training next year.
I find it frustrating
that one supports this team and they don’t want/feel the need to tell people the real deal. What are the reasons for this I wonder?
It can’t be that big a competitive edge – all teams get guys hurt, and it’s the beginning of June. Do they not want to discourage future ticket sales?
Seriously – I don’t get it.
I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck
It's all right
Make yourself a Ham On Rye for lunch and remember that love-even of a ballclub-is a dog from hell.
an advantage to secrecy...
in this regard may lie in having an advantage in possible trade talk. For example, if the Cardinals were trading, say, a certain left-handed hitting 1B to SF for a young arm, then disclosing a season-ending injury to your own #1 pitcher may imply a greater (though true?) need for pitching than the Cardinals would like to expose.
SF is looking for a left-hand hitting 1B?
Who knew?
"Back in the day when I played, a pitcher had 3 pitches: a fastball, a curveball, a slider, a changeup and a good sinker pitch." - Mike Shannon
Deja Vu All Over Again
Yesterday, I must have checked the P-D and official site twenty times by lunch. I had a fever and the only prescription was the prognosis on Wagonmaker. After reading the report, it occurred to me how irrational my fever had been, especially in light of the recent history of injured Cardinals. Cloak and dagger is the name of the game when it comes to injured Redbirds, even before they refused access for the press to the club’s medical staff. The club had Wainwright refer all medical questions back to staff, but they don’t let medical staff talk to the media. It’s a vicious circle that will result in no answers, at least until Wagonmaker is back starting or until his DL stint is lengthened—and maybe not even then.
Thankfully
The kids have done a great job filling in so far. If the system was as barren as it was just a couple of years back, I don’t think we could even hope to stay competitive while Wainwright is out.
I don’t know why we even bother waiting for medical news from the Birds. It’s “needs rest”, then “DL for precaution” then “will be back in a couple of weeks” then “surgery, out for the year.”
The Cardinals are moving closer and closer to finding out whether
the Memphis Cardinals can win the wild card in the majors.
Not that much unlike any other year
Our rotation, as of today, consists of: Blooper, El Pineiro, Lohse, The Colonel, and Mitchell Boggs (from Memphis). Our infield, as of today, consists of The Great Pujols, AK, Grit Miles, Ryan, Izturis, Glaus, and Yadi. Our outfield consists of Barton, Ankiel, Ludwick, Skippy, and Mather (from Memphis). Our ‘pen consists of Villone, Springer, Franklin, Flores, McClellan (kind of from Memphis), Perez (from Memphis), and Mark Worrell (from Memphis). All in all, I’d say that we have a fifth stop gap starter, a fourth or fifth outfielder, and two arms in the ‘pen—one of whom throws 95 mph with a nasty slider while the other has proved himself capable in his two appearances, even with the stick (whacking a homer in his first big league AB).
I’d say that, as with any season, we’ve had injuries, had to pull players up from AAA to fill holes, and that those players had proved capable of filling those holes. At least to this point. I would further put forth the idea that all of these players were deserving of a shot in the bigs.
Seems to me like it is important to remember:
A. Skippy ,Ludwick, and Boggs have been career minor leaguers
B. Barton would be in AAA if not for the fact the Rule 5 issues
C. Miles, Ryan, Izturis, Blooper and AK are all playing at a replacement level (i.e. the Cards can find basically the same player as a minor league free agents and in AAA).
D. Pineiro was sent to the minors and DFA’d last year
On that list above the only non AAA/ AAAA players I see are Pujols, Glaus, Yadi, Ankiel (and even here you could make a reasonable argument that on other teams he would still be in AAA for seasoning), and Lohse.
Boggs is 25
And was drafted in 2005. He is the first Cardinal from that draft class to make the major leagues. To characterize him as a career minor leaguer is plain wrong. Ludwick missed almost three full minor league seasons with injury. He was a 2nd round draft pick.
The whole cloak & dagger bit
over team injury issues is a tad over the top, it seems. Very Bellichek-esque. Of course, it’s not like good ole’ Doc Paletta has a fan club among Redbird rooters. I guess I am somewhat surprised that the club has not staged some sort of PR campaign to help out Paletta’s very negative public image.
Looking at WW’s situation from a different angle…if his finger does somehow heal back to 100% in a month, it is a months less wear & tear on his arm & shoulder. This could possibly be a September blessing in disguise?
Steriods is...is bad.
If memory serves
there was a big brouhaha over the off season because MLB, not just the Cardinals, had made rule changes to reduce access to teams’ medical information. Anybody remember the details? Because I don’t follow any other team nearly as closely as the Cardinals (what a thought), I don’t know whether other teams’ fans are having similar trouble getting a straight story on injuries in the gray area. If something happens that clearly shuts a guy down for a long time, the story usually comes out, but if it’s one of these “wait and see” things, maybe we’re not the only ones in this situation.
I agree that a little mid-season rest for WW is not altogether a bad thing, if he can pitch the second half and be effective. The team has significant depth in starting pitching, for the first time in a long time (and it’s good to have it because it’s being put to the test). Most of the replacements aren’t close to being on WW’s level, but they’re not so far from it as to be an embarrassment.
by StanTheManFan on Jun 10, 2008 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
More appropriate
Perhaps I shouldn’t have used “cloack & dagger.” Yes, in retrospect, “cloak and scalpel” would have been more appropriate.
please also note
that, once again, UZR rates Pujols as the best first baseman in baseball
UZR rating on Ankiel
Yes I’m ignoring the 800 lb gorilla named Wainwright’s figner….
Any where I can find the break down of everything? I was surprised not to see him in the best list.
no wonder he has a strain...
trying to support an 800 lb gorilla with one finger would be tough
boo cubs, hooray beer
CF defense
Anyone else wonder how one-time defensive studs like J’Ed or Andruw Jones turn in to such horrible outfielders? In the formaer case you can chalk it up to age and injuries, but none-the-less its such an awfuly steep decline. Has anyone ever studied correlations between age and CF defense?
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!
it's crazy.
Griffey is another example—it’s painful to watch guys who were once so smooth lumber around as if they were goofs
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Medical Staff
Why do people talk about the Med staff likes it’s the worst in baseball?
How has the Medical Staff failed? You people do realize that people are not meant to be torn apart in certain areas and resume a normal “PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL CAREER”.......
I just don’t get this whole our medical staff is hiding stuff and sucks thing? Did you ever think players don’t want you to know what is wrong with them….......
I understand what you are saying, IC...
but one of the reasons injury information is made accessible to the public, is to keep gamblers and bookmakers from having a monopoly on that data (because you KNOW they are going to find a way to get it) and thus using it to their advantage…as you probably know, the NFL seems to bend over backwards to make sure that every bump and bruise is documented.
That said, I try not to live my life obsessed with the condition of Wainwright’s finger or Wellmeyer’s elbow or any of that, but it’s kind of like all the celebrity news that we are inundated with…none of it is really our business, but people tend to think they are entitled to “inside” information when you root for a team or follow a movie star and all that.
Misdiagnoses and flawed evaluation
See:
Mulder, Mark
Clement, Matthew
Rolen, Scott (although I don’t think the staff is entirely at fault here)
Mulder, Clement, Rolen
Mulder- I guess you can say flawed evaluation, but at the same time shoulders are hard to diagnose, and they are not going to perform surgery to see what his shoulder was like prior to signing him…... Part of it falls on the player to say something just is not right and then maybe you can do a more aggressive diagnosis.
Clement- I think he was cheap and they were hoping that his shoulde would gain more strenght. He has not pitched in 2 years? I don’t think they expected Clement to be throwing 95 MPH, besides he is so cheap it’s not a big deal…. I can’t get too hung up on him, lots of teams take risks like this which are low cost possibly high one year reward.
Rolen- He did not want to have full blown surgery right away. Most athletes are not going to opt for full blown surgery if there is a chance they can rehab throgh physical therapy, Rolen rolled the dice and it did not work…...Yes it would probably been better to have surgery right away but I don’t know if it was Rolen’s desier to go under the knife at that time…...
You're wrong on Rolen
He went with Paletta’s advice to go with the labrum cleanup surgery and it didn’t work-it wasted more than 1/2 a season and Rolen never forgave the organization for that; he sought a second opinion and, although Paletta scrubbed in on the second surgery (labrum repair), Rolen made it pretty clear he didn’t want Paletta cutting on him again.
It’s fine that you aren’t too worked up about Clement, but the fact remains that the team docs evaluated him, considered his shoulder structurally sound and ready to go for spring training. It took Dave Duncan to shut ‘er down and put him through more rehab. In my opinion, that’s proof that the evaluation was not thorough enough.
Clement didn't have a new injury
The fact that Clement was shut down had nothing to do with a new injury or an undiagnosed medical condition. It had to do with ability and performance coming off of the rehab from surgery. That is more of a baseball decision in my mind. The team watched him pitch and decided to take a chance that he could become the same or close to the same as he was before surgery. There is no for a doctor to look in a shoulder and tell if he is going to redevelop arm strength or be able to hit 92 on the gun. If it was possible, I might admit a doctor is a god.
by CardFaninTTown on Jun 10, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
There are dynamic tests you can run
isokinetic strength testing, for one, is an option.
The physician has to have the forethought to order them, however.
The baseball people shouldn't sign
any pitcher coming off a medical problem without seeing him throw. He was alleged throwing with good velocity prior to the signing. All you have to do is see for yourself.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
I think the fanbase's issue with the Rolen situation:
...was that he played for a full month despite the fact that he was screaming loud enough to be heard on TV after most swings. It doesn’t take a medical professional to see that there was something wrong with him and that he had no business on a baseball field at the time.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
Well the med staff can't pull him off the field....
Larussa tried to bench him for the same reason in the 06 play-offs and Rolen threw a fit.
Still not a valid excuse
If no one had the balls to stand up to Rolen at the time…again he was screaming in pain on most swings…then that isn’t still an indictment over the handling of that?? The inmates don’t run the asylum.
I’m not necessarily one of the “the med staf sux000x lol” (the D-Backs handling of Byrnes this year was brutal: they didn’t get him an MRI because he was scared of what they’d find) but that was just terrible management top to bottom in the organization.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
It's hard in my opinion.....
Yes these guys are investments but at the same time you are trying to manage ego’s…...... See contrary to BS that some fans say about guys not playing hard and what not, these guys are driven and there is a reason they are professional athletes.
It’s hard to tell a guy especially in Rolen’s class that he needs to take a seat. Sometimes you let a guy gut it out and most will admit they need to hit the DL…
It’s just not easy at times.
Someone on another forum made a good point...
Follow any other team in baseball as closely as you follow the Cardinals. Follow them for 3 straight years, the same way you follow the Cardinals, and i’ll bet you’ll see the exact same things with any of those organizations.
boo cubs, hooray beer
If Duncan is the 2nd-best LF in the NL
then we are bearing witness to the sorriest bunch of leftfielders in a long, long time.
If the UZR ratings have Duncan as 2nd best,
something is certainly amiss with their rating system. Truthfully, anyone with a calculator and plenty of time could even make the Jeff Tabaka decision a good one.
Steriods is...is bad.
by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 10, 2008 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Have you seen Alfonso Sorrianon play? Ryan Braun? Jason Bay? Matt Holliday?
Those guys are not great LF by any means! Hell Sorriano can’t even catch the ball, yeah he can throw guys out, but who cares…... I would rather have my LF catch the ball than be able to throw guys out…
There are a lot of guys playing LF who are not that good…
The thing about Duncan is he does not look pretty at times, but he is tall standing 6’5 and throw in his arm length with a 13-14” glove and you have a long reach… I have noticed he does a nice job of catching balls that go over most LF heads due to his reach.
You sir, must see Duncan's left field play
differently that I see it. If you think Dunc is a good left fielder, well…to each his own. I admire his hustle and grit, just not his ability in the outfield. He is obviously playing out of his natural position.
Steriods is...is bad.
by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 10, 2008 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
No I don't think he is a great defender but he is not as awful as people think either.....
Trust me Mather is better than Duncan without a doubt…........
I did not say Duncan is great, but trust me he is not horseshit either..
He does make some plays other LF don’t but he screws up plays as well, it kind of balances out a bit. He is out of postion for sure but I just am not going to say he is awful.
Duncs D
Everyone thinks duncs D is so bad because it’s so ugly. He catches an easy ball behind his head or between his legs, then smashes into a wall or jams his knee into the dirt. And when he makes an error, he’ll go ahead and make 2 of em to really piss people off….
But the stats say that he catches more balls than a lot of others, and that doesnt lie.
It's not his defense that was the problem
Dunc’s lack of offense (and Mather’s hot streak) this year was the reason he was sent down.
So far I haven’t seen that Dunc has regained his stroke at Memphis.
Duncan, all righties, and positioning
Mitchel Lichtman has previously confessed that an odd preponderance of righties/lefties and the positioning of a fielder could bias his UZR rating. Does he address that is his latest measures?
Why couldn’t that be happening with Duncan? The Cardinals are notably anal on positioning and usually do it specific to what pitcher we have up. He so far has mostly always played with a right-handed starters, wouldn’t this make him play more so in the gap/down the line than other LFs depending on the handedness of the batter?
maybe a fair point
But isn’t the overall argument against Duncan playing that he is costing us runs. If he compares well against others at the same postion favorably, then he woud be worth keeping in the outfield. I know if we positioned other better OFs in the same position they might get to more balls, but then again if Duncan is hitting he might have a better stick than a lot of guys and he is most likely far cheaper. The reason I felt Duncan needed to go back to Memphis was his inability to hit consistently anymore.
by CardFaninTTown on Jun 10, 2008 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Earlier in the season
Duncan’s ABs were coming at Ludwick’s expense, which made no sense as Luddy hits both righties and lefties better than Duncan and is a better defender. If it comes down to a choice between Duncan and Skippy, then I would still choose Duncan provided he returns to a reasonable facsimile of himself at the plate.
The only way Shumaker should get playing time (if everyone is healthy and playing well) is if he could somehow manage to be significantly better defensively in CF than our other options. I don’t see that happening. He makes no sense as a corner OF.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
I'm pretty sure EVERY team is anal on positioning
(And you could easily read that statement the wrong way)
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
de lurking to say
a local sports show just had a pretty interesting interview with Dave Duncan this morning. It will be online soon on www.insidestl.com. Click the link to the morning after and then find the segment with the interview. It was pretty fascinating stuff.
mel
Ligament vs. tendon
The hand is a very intricate and complicated structure. In very simplified terms, however, the difference between a tendon tear and a ligament tear in the finger is significant.
As LBoros highlighted, the word “sprain” is basically a synonym for “tear.” It’s important to point out, though, that sprains are graded on a continuum. A mild sprain involves microtearing of collagen fibers; a moderate sprain involves moderate to significant disruption of the ligament; and a severe sprain involves significant to full tearing of the ligament.
All the speculation yesterday was based on the assumption that Wagonmaker tore (Bernie used the “rupture” term on his forum) a finger tendon. Thus the Will Carroll prediction that he could be out 4 months. The fact that Carroll also said Cardinals were contacting the Tigers about how they handled the Zumaya situation seemed ominous; whether or not that actually happened we know not.
Remember that tendons connect muscles to bone. A torn finger tendon is a much more devastating injury and surgery is a likely outcome. In addition, a clinical exam can usually rule in/out a tendon tear as specific resistance tests will either reproduce the pain or show specific weakness.
My guess is that Adam presents with a moderate to severe sprain of a ligament in the finger. The MRI confirmed it…rest is the treatment of choice here. No guarantees on his outcome of course with this conservative treatment.
So are the Cards playing poker with this? Absolutely…right or wrong, they always do. But medically speaking, they aren’t doing anything out of the ordinary here.
by silent_bob on Jun 10, 2008 11:13 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
By the way
I’m 90% sure I know the hand specialist that Paletta referred Wainwright to; he’s in the same building and he’s an excellent surgeon. I do trust his judgement.
by silent_bob on Jun 10, 2008 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
To Silent Bob
I’m a physical therapist also, I’d be happy to help right articles on various health related rehab related topics. Let me know. You can send me an email at rob@justcallrob.com if you’re interested.
Disc Dog Rob, PT
by Disc Dog Rob on Jun 10, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
SB, would you...
talk to LB about doing a Medical post weekly or monthly? Just talking about common injuries, especially those facing our pitchers.
If its something people are interested in
I’m up for doing that.
I do not feel that I’m a very talented writer, unlike LB, Red Baron, Houston, and Azru (I’m a physical therapist)...but if the masses call for it I can give it a shot…
Physical therapy
I’m a PT student in my first year at a DPT program. Cool to see another PT on VEB. Since I’m only a first year student, my “medical expertise” is more like “medical novice” but I’m in agreement with what you had to say above. You don’t happen to be a hand specialist, do you? Maybe you could work with Wagonmaker? Seriously though, I’ve wondered if the Cards have a PT on staff and why they have so many problems getting ROM back for players who have went through surgeries.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I would definitely be interested....
your medical posts are always very very interesting.
boo cubs, hooray beer
there's something like that...
over at another SBN blog, Conquest Chronicles. Paragon SC runs a series called “Injury Clinic”, usually in response to an SC football player getting injured, but its a pretty comprehensive medical explanation of the causes/symptoms/treatments associated with football injuries that you always hear about but us laymen don’t necessarily understand. its a nice addition and i think something like that for baseball would be great to have around here.
dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas
Cloak & Dagger
First off, I love this site and read it everyday. It makes living behind enemy lines in chicago a little easier when I can read about the birds on the bat by great fans who in many instances have wonderful insights. So thank you.
I’m sure that this is an unpopular statement that will be slammed by the readers here but….I don’t see the big issue with the cardinals keeping the fans in the dark about the extent of injuries until they are 100% sure on the course of action. I’m sure that they have their reasons for opperating the way that they do. Sure it’s frustrating for us fans, but they have to do what is best for the team. Maybe it’s because of trades or some other reason that they are secretive, I really don’t know. But I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and trust that they will do what’s best for the team.
by cardinal fan in chicago on Jun 10, 2008 11:18 AM EDT reply actions
you're not in a small minority
i agree with you (and oldbirdwatcher below); I’m sure many others do too. It’s usually those who are upset who want to talk about it most. I understand their point of view, I just don’t share it.
Another issue I have with these complaints is that some people usually demand information right away and complain when it doesn’t come. The reality is this injury occurred over the weekend and many medical/info staff for the Cards only started working on Monday – these people have other lives unlike us. I wish people would wait a week, see what we know, then make their assessment of the organization’s honesty/openness.
by enoscountry on Jun 10, 2008 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
doctor- patient confidentiality
I have always wondered how the Cards/ MLB (all professional sports really) deal with this in regard to giving out information about a players injury. Sometimes I am surprised at the kind of information that IS given out since it could have repercussions on a players future earnings. I would think that some players just wouldn’t want all the information put out there.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I am confused
by the angst expressed in some posts about the Cardinals’ secretiveness over Wainwright’s finger injury. I am one of those people with medical experience that LB referred to in his post. Obviously, he is correct that surgery is a last resort. The data he quoted from the medical wevbsite confirm two things: 1) Healing time varies widely at all levels of injury, and no one can predict who will be fast or slow to heal. 2) Need for surgery is also not predictable—only time can tell. So what has the team been duplicitous about? The team, nor anyone else, does not know any more about the time frame, and they have denied any imminent need for surgery without totally ruling it out. So let’s back off, hope for the best and try to prepare for whatever may happen.
by oldbirdwatcher on Jun 10, 2008 11:29 AM EDT reply actions
Secretive versus Duplicitous
I don’t think anyone was arguing that the Cardinals organization is deceitful. It’s just the constant lack of pertitent details that is vexing.
For example, the Cards announced that Wainwright suffered a “sprain to the finger.” Oooookay, but what’s the severity of the sprain? Mild? Grade II? Rupture? They also didn’t completely confirm it was a ligament versus a tendon, although “sprain” certainly implies a ligament. If it’s a major tear, they should have been able to see that in the MRI, but they don’t say whether it’s a severe tear.
They then instruct Ada…sorry, ADAM, to defer all questions to the medical staff, which has then been instructed to refuse to answer any questions.
Essentially, they are deliberately concealing information.
Now, they may indeed have a good business reason to do so, but it doesn’t make it any less frustrating for us fans that want to know, realistically, whether or not we can count on Wainwright to come back after a few weeks of rest (mild sprain), or whether we should plan on the likelihood of him getting surgery and being out for the year (severe sprain).
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Rotation and Spot Starts Next Couple of Weeks
Dave Duncan was just on 1380 here in St. Louis. He had a couple of interesting things to say about the upcoming starts and who was taking them.
- Dave didn’t sound too excited about Boggs starting tonight – not quite ready to be a major league starter
- Sounds like Garcia will get the nod for Thursday’s start. McClellan not really an option because they feel that only one or two starts were needed. Neither is Reyes for the same reason. Piniero is probably not ready to start yet because of the time off.
- Really, really encouraged about Mulder and the tweak to his motion. Feels that he took to it immediate and the results are showing immediately.
- Encouraged by Clement and his progress. Feels that he should be an option to pitch with the big club very soon.
- Had a setback last week with Carpenter and had to shut him down for a couple of days. Right now he is back to his regular program and everything is progressing.
They also asked him a bit about Chris Duncan. He was not happy about the way that the media handled him and felt they were being unfair which causes them both a bunch of problems. He would not go into it much more than that.
Nice.
Way to instill confidence in your boy there Coach. Not good to hear about Carp.
Ugh.
I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck
Boggs
You could tell that Duncan was not trying to throw him under the bus, but wanted to be honest as well. If it were me, you lie to give a vote of confidence to your player whether you believe it or not. But I don’t run a pitching staff, so until I am in his shoes…
by get up baby on Jun 10, 2008 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
You know what?
He could just say “I’m excited to see how he does.” That’s not talking him up or down. I think someone needs to pull Mr. Duncan aside and remind him these players are company assets. I am amazed that the organization hasn’t talked to him about it-and made him stop.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
When I read that part about Boggs
I said to myself “Of course he doesn’t think he’s ready…he hasn’t DECLARED him ready to be a starter” and we all know that you can’t be a successful pitcher unless you do it Dave’s way.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Boggs does do it Dave's way
Boggs is an extreme ground ball pitcher who does not post high strikeout totals. He already does do it Dave’s way. I think Dave’s worry is related to Boggs fastball command and the quality of Boggs’ secondary pitches…both of which do indeed need improvement. Boggs may very well throw a good game against CIN but Dave is right in that he is not consistent enough with the command of his stuff to be a major league pitcher yet.
The same could have been said of Wellemeyer
when they made him a starter. It’s all about paying your dues with LaDunc. That’s why Skippy was named a starting OF. That’s why Izturis was chosen over Ryan. That’s why Kelvin Jiminez keeps getting shots at the bullpen.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
is
Jiminez on the team? I swore they went with Perez, Worrell and Boggs each of the last three times they needed a pitcher but I could be wrong.
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.
They gave Jiminez the shot first
unless your memory is a little groggy.
If you don’t think they have a certain way of doing things when it comes to confusing ‘experience’ with ‘talent’ then you either are ignoring the tendencies of LaDunc or are paying attention.
Sheesh.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
My memory is groggy
they called Perez up before Jiminez, but Jiminez was given a shot before Worrell and Boggs.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Jiminez
wasn’t “given a shot”. He was called up to pitch mop up for a couple of days, and then was going to be sent back down.
nope, you were right the first time
Jimenez was called up first, in early april when Piniero was unable to pitch. He was sent down when piniero came back. Perez wasn’t given a shot until mid-may. THAT time, they picked Perez over Jimenez, but Jimenez was given the first shot.
"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton
That's right, I had completely forgot about that
if he was going to be called up for ‘mop up’ duties, why not give that shot to the more talented guys who by LaDunc’s preferences ‘need experience’ before they can be trusted?
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
they didn't want to yoyo Perez, so they called up the disposible guy
that’s showing respect for Perez
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
no disagreement with your point
but while many of us consider Jimenez “the disposable guy” I don’t think TLR/Dunc share that opinion. Their public comments about him have been very positive, unlike some others like Reyes, Boggs, etc.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
But that's speculation too
Point is, we’ll never know for sure. We might as well stop debating it now.
Wellemeyer
And if you look at Wellemeyer as a starter, he has grown into the role. Yes he probably wasn’t ready when he was thrown in there but the team had no other real options. How is that any different from the current situation with Boggs?
I don't particularly remember Dave
coming out with a critique of Looper or Wellemeyer as they converted them into starters. We were told they had ‘great’ secondary pitches and they’d make great starters. Sure, I guess that makes sense if you ignore the fact that Wellemeyer had zero control as a reliever and Braden Looper couldn’t get a left handed batter out if you gave them 2 strikes and took their bat away.
Again, I haven’t actually heard the radio interview so maybe Dave was more glowing of Boggs than the recap above appears but it seems like he is less than confident in Boggs abilities than he was in Looper and Wellemeyer, two players half the league didn’t even want when we got them.
And how Boggs pitches tonight won’t matter. Success won’t equal more of an opportunity, we all know that.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
We know that from what?
Who came up and had success and was sent back? Reyes? Hardly. He had one nice fill in start against MIL and then a nice on against the CHISOX. Both of those situations were explicitly fill in situations. When he was given extended opportunities to prove he could make more than one quality start he failed. If there is someone else that I am missing please let me know.
Jose Rio, Thompson, Reyes, Worell
All seem to be or have been in his doghouse.
Who is Jose Rio?
Worrell was just called up. Maybe they didn’t think his funky delivery would fool major league hitters. And after a few appearances we still don’t know. Thompson has fringe average stuff. He is the definition of a bullpen swingman and has been used as such.
Jose Rijo
Oakland starter who was mistreated by LaDunc only to have him come back and dominate them in the World Series.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahh that Jose Rijo
Sorry the mispelling threw me for a loop. How did they mistreat him? If they just gave up on him too soon then that hardly makes for a unique situation. It happens all the time in baseball. Take Gavin Floyd as a recent example.
or Jason Schmidt
there are always some mistakes
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
They treated him the way they did Reyes
they took a 4 seam fastball pitcher with a plus off-speed pitch (slider) and forced him to use the 2 seam fastball, try to pitch to contact and to learn a DIFFERENT off-speed pitch and use that.
It almost ruined his career until he got to the Reds, where he was told to pitch the way he knew how no matter what happened. He turned his career around and then stuck it to LaDunc in the World Series.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Glad that makes you happy
Seems you’ll be very excited when LaRussa and Duncan call it a career. I can only hope that whoever succeeds them is close to being as successful. Maybe you are right and Reyes will flourish when he gets his chance elsewhere. I would be willing to wager with you that he will not ever post an ERA below 4.75 over a season that consists of more than 20-25 starts. Would you like to wager?
agreed
Man…Maybe Dunc has pictures of Hardcore or something :)
No, he’s not perfect but I don’t think he is as evil or awful as Hardcore makes him out to be.
Did Duncan make McClellan “earn” it? How about Wainwright? Or Tyler Johnson in 2006? Again, he and TLR have given PLENTY of young players opportunities. To say otherwise would be incorrect.
Also, can we not make such a big deal out of a radio interview that hardly any of us even heard?
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.
Our complaint is he seems to make up his mind before giving the player a chance
Worell should have been called up long before Jiminez or Parasi. He still isn’t trusted in relief situations.
Yet McClellan is. Neither have a track record to go on.
Reyes and Thompson both get the shaft from Duncan/TLR even when they do well. Looper on the other hand, endless rope.
Dontcha think
that Duncan knows a major league pitcher when he sees one? McClellan’s stuff is far superior to Jiminez, Parisi or Worrell. He got the first shot and and Duncan’s assessment has been validated. Looper’s been a better pitcher than Reyes and about equal to Thompson. But Looper is a larger investment and does not have minor league options.
Nope
I think he sees
Pitchers that get on top of pitchs VS ones that don’t
Pitchers that throw sinking pitches VS ones that don’t
Pitchers that induce contact VS ones that induce strikeouts.
Score 2 out of 3 and you are a duncan favorite. Ironically, which is why I still don’t understand there treatment of Thompson.
when
Has Reyes and Thompson gotten the shaft “even when they do well”? I don’t seem to remember them pitching well, then getting sent down, etc.
Looper is also on a longer, more expensive contract. Money does play a role in some decisions whether we like it ornot.
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.
Thompson started twice this year
and is 1-0 with a 2.53 ERA and 11 Ks in 10.67 IPs. Then kicked to the bullpen and demoted.
His career record as a starter is 7-4 with a 4.53 ERA.
Looper’s career record as a starter is 19-17 with a 4.89 ERA
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Note on Average number
I’d say Looper was at least league average for a number 5 starter. You’re number include all pitchers. Gotta compare apples with apples.
Personally, I was tired of Reyes last season. I think he got lots of opportunities to show that he was a major league pitcher. We have better options.
Disc Dog Rob, PT
by Disc Dog Rob on Jun 10, 2008 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Um, yeah
they did make Wainwright earn it on 2 different occasions. He was bumped from the rotation for Sydney Ponson to start the season, Looper was picked over him early on to be the closer when Izzy went down.
Tyler Johnson in 2006? Are you talking about the guy that was left in Memphis because Ricardo Rincon was given a shot first? And then when Tyler was called up and was clearly the better option vs LHP, Randy Flores still got more opportunities?
LaRussa and Duncan are a great group of guys to have manage your team when you need to ‘seal the deal’ on polishing off a championship caliber team. They’ll pull mostly the right levers, fix the FA vets you pick up to round out your club and won’t have to be bothered with trusting unproven commodities in big game situations.
For a team like the Cardinals, who are in transition and need to trust the younger, more talented players coming up, they need a manager that is willing to allow young players to make mistakes but also get back out there and try again.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they are smart enough to do both
But maybe I’m wrong. Seems to me like this “transition year” is going alot better than anyone could have expected. Despite the fact that the “young player haters” have allowed 8 minor leaguers to make their big league debut. Mo must have forced them. They couldn’t have agreed to those decisions.
Trusting Players?
IMHO, LaDunc have trusted their players, the young and the not so young. I recall everyone (myself included) harping on Iz2 in ST for his errors, and he turned out to be a defensive gem. I also recall us questioning the decision to start Ank in CF with CR in waiting, and I think that’s worked out alright. A lot of young birds are getting playing time this year. I think this year’s team seem even more ideal for TLR’s tweaking because the kids could be platooned. I think a record of 38 and 27 is pretty good considering all the kids that we are using. I can’t complain too much at this point seeing that we are #2 in NL.
Sorry to disagree, but I am really glad that LaDunc are coaches this year. I can’t imagine what the year would be like if the Cards blew up the team and just played AP and kids.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
hard to establish their trust
but it’s absolute once established
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
I used to think like that....
But this year has changed my mind a bit. LaRussa lobbied in the offseason for the signing of veteran players, but Mo chose to rebuild from the farm and to give the young players a shot, and Tony has done that. Most of the youngsters have been pretty productive as well. I don’t think you can discount how WW was handled considering the outcome, especially since he was invaluable in the closer’s role on the title team in ‘06. The BOB don’t win a title without him making Beltran look like frozen pizza in Game 7.
I’m tired of all the Reyes fanatics on here - he’s clearly not good enough to be more than a #5 starter at the big league level. He dominates in AAA because he can sneak his fastball by some of those hitters when it’s belt high - in the MLB those pitches get clobbered. Duncan has tried to show him that pitching down in the zone helps change hitters eye-levels and allows him to get more balls in play, thus, he doesn’t have to work as hard to get outs. The kid doesn’t listen and doesn’t have the stuff to be a dominant power pitcher in the majors…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
this is not correct at all
the fight was between Reyes and Ponson in 2006 for the 5th spot. Wainwright was told right away he made team but on the bullpen. There are tons of articles documenting this.
Looper was not chosen over Wainwright. Izzy’s last game was Sep 6, Looper had 1 9th inning save opportunity afterward (Sep 16), Waino 4.
Ricardo Rincon given a shot first? They had to considering his record the previous years and that the World Baseball Classic delayed his spring training so they weren’t able to evaluate him until later. And they moved him on the DL quickly.
When he was told that he was going to the bullpen
doesn’t really change the point at all. He was a starting pitcher that was told he was going to the bullpen so that Sir Syd could take the 5th spot in the rotation.
And, if I remember correctly, Reyes was bumped from the rotation because he had a bad start late in the spring.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
enos, that's not true
not taking sides in the overall debate, but reyes was shipped out pretty early in ST 2006 - had a bad spring and was cut well before the staff trimmed down to 15 or so pitchers. wainer and ponson fought it out for the 5th slot, and after wainer “lost” he got thrown into a competition for the bullpen with josh hancock, jeff nelson, and somebody else whose name escapes me at the moment. hancock and wainer made the team.
I distinctly remember Reyes vs. Ponson
as the debate mostly discussed here link
The March 13 spring training had them each pitch 4 innings back-to-back and was called on ESPN as a competition for the 5th spot.
Thompson has/had better numbers than looper
But there is a world apart in how those two are treated by the team. They are basically similar pitchers.
Looper also has a heftier paycheck
The team has a much larger investment in him and needs it to pay off to balance the economics of the team. Also, Thompson has minor league options, Looper does not. These are realities. Thompson’s slightly better numbers do not mean that he can displace Looper. It is simply economic reality. You said it yourself…”They are basically similar pitchers” But Looper’s contract investment and major league status put him in front.
Or looking at it a different way.
If they are similar you try to trade looper and backfill him with thompson and save money for another player.
A team needs to play its best players, period.
The emotional attachments of the manager and coach should not factor in.
And Looper has no future with this team
so in a transitional year, why not use the pitchers that are on the same level as he is but need their future with the club to be better understood?
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Looper
Looper’s role on this team is important. He gives you reliable league average innings. He is also durable. To the Cardinals he has legitimate value. On the trade market he has very marginal value. I would think that the recent rash of pitching injuries would illustrate Looper’s value to you.
How is Looper suddenly durable?
A guy who in 2005 had shoulder surgery and in 2007 had to hit the DL after being converted to a starter is now durable?
I also wasn’t aware that 5.00-ish ERA and an ERA+ in the mid-80s was now league average.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know if I'd call him league average.
Not to quibble, but this year he’s posting a 4.86 ERA (league average 4.18) and last year he posted a 4.94 ERA. Opponents are hitting .308 off him this year and he’s got a robust 1.53 WHIP.
by Ray Lankford on Jun 10, 2008 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I stand corrected
Looper has indeed been below league average. I still think he is durable and an asset to the staff as currently constituted. If we could find a taker for him I wouldn’t mind seeing his spot go to Thompson. I can certainly see why they have made the decisions they have made.
So below average is ok
As long as the pitcher gets on top of pitches, throws sinkers, listens to Dave?
I think you just made our point.
Not what I said
Thompson and Reyes are both below average as well. Only they have substantially less dollars invested in them and both have minor league options. I said I could understand their decisions based on the above stated factors. I said nothing about throwing sinkers. That is your red herring not mine!
a minor pedantism
but league average starter ERA in the NL in ‘07 was 4.64, not 4.17. Looper was still “below average” for a starter, when you include the last 5 starts where he was pitching while hurt (while having thrown twice the innings he’s ever thrown before) because Reyes and Wells had failed so badly, but he was “above average” for his first 25 (of 27) starts last year.
This year I’m afraid he’s having hangover effects from that… hope that isn’t true, but it sure seems like it. Still, he’s given us the chance to win in 11 of 13 starts…
"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton
Not uncommon
Again the rosy predictions about Carp being ready in July are best-case scenario and are not likely to happen. These things happen and rushing him is a bad idea.
I believe the setback he is talking about
was one that was discussed weeks ago. He had some swelling or something of the sort but went back to his program and everything has been fine since.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Someone mentioned Belichek earlier
I think we need to remember he is one of Tony’s best friends. He’s famous for misdirection and trying to mess with opponents’ heads. I’m guessing they probably exchange ideas on strategy.
For all we know Dave could have said something to Boggs before he went on warning him that he was going to throw him under the bus in hopes that Cinci would become overconfident.
I’m not saying that’s exactly what happened – but just wanted to point out there’s likely lots of stuff that happens behind the scenes we don’t (and shouldn’t) know about .
Yeah, because 1380's signal goes all the way to Cinncinnati.........
Yeah, it’s a game of reverse psychology. I think Mr. Duncan’s head is so big he has trouble getting a hat on it….....
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
agreed
But in a way. I highly doubt Mitchell Boggs was listening to the Dave Duncan interview today. I think people are really overreacting here. So Duncan doesn’t think Mitchell Boggs is ready to be an everyday starter in the majors? Wow. Newsflash. I’m pretty sure most of Cardinal Nation feels the same way.
I doubt Duncan is worried whether Boggs heard the radio interview or not.
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.
beanocook.....I agree with you
How is saying his off speed stuff is not MLB ready much of an insult….....
So you want DD to blow smoke up everyone’s ass people? Oh wait we had people bitching earlier becaue they think the Cards blow smoke up peoples ass…....
I swear some people just bitch to bitch….....
I love this place.
In the same thread we have people calling out the Cardinals for not being truthfull(WW finger) and calling them out for being Honest. (Boggs.)
I don't think it will boost the confidence
of Wainer’s finger if they say it is OK. MIGHT boost the confidence of a pitcher if public statements are more positive.
I think all the pre-season talk about Boggs was that he profiled as a reliever any way so it is not a big deal. I just think managers/pitching coaches should always say good things about their players publicly unless they think the effort isn’t there.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
You've consistently been a pretty aggressive defender
of LaDunc, and that’s fine. Everyone has their own opinion.
No one says that Dave has to blow smoke up anyone’s ass. Nor does he have to lie. But if he can be encouraged by Mulder’s new mechanics or Clement getting his brains beat in during his last rehab start, why does he feel the need to ‘caution’ us against Boggs as a MLB starter?
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Partially because the plan, according to all, is that Boggs is going back down
this is an emergency spot start, and he ideally would need more seasoning
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
That's disappointing
because if he is sent down, he won’t be able to fill back in should they need another start next week.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
its tough
to take a guy’s comments seriously when he resorts to name calling and silly nicknames. So because I don’t bash Dave Duncan at every opportunity it makes me a defender or does it make me fair?
On the extreme end of things I would say you certainly fall on one end when it comes to Dave Duncan. I don’t love everything Duncan does but I don’t feel I need to call him names or ridicule him in every single post I make. If that makes me a “defender” then so be it.
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.
I assume you mean in other instances
and not the ‘LaDunc’ abbreviation of Team LaRussa and Duncan.
Correct?
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
yes
No offense personally, I just see that kind of moniker as silly. They aren’t one in the same. I also think the nickname is used in a derogatory way which kinda seems childish—but to each their own.
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.
It's pretty hard to argue that they aren't linked at the hip
after being together for over 20 years.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I still think Mr. Duncan has no business saying it on a radio show.
I know Mr. Duncan’s not worried about it. He doesn’t have to be. There is no one in the organization that will tell him to stop.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Nor should he stop
Duncan’s blunt assessments are part of what makes him a successful pitching coach. Just because Reyes couldn’t handle it doesn’t make it wrong. I think Reyes’ mental weakness is the main reason he consistently fails at the major league level. Now maybe he will go elsewhere and be coddled like he wants to be and maybe he will have some success. But I doubt it.
So he should talk abaout every pitcher's flaws on a radio show?
You really think that’s better than just sitting down and telling the pitcher?
Sorry, I think you are wrong.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Agree to disagree then
Because I like the fact that Duncan is candid. Again, if he (pitchers) can’t handle criticism in any forum then they have no business in the major leagues.
Oh, and I don't say it because I don't think the players can't take it.
I’m sure they can. They don’t need anyone to baby them. That is not my point at all. My point is that I don’t think they should have to. They are adults, they are orginizational property, and human beings too. That needs to be shown respect IMO.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Respect is earned
Not given. When they are successful they will receive respect. I think you are asking for them to be babied. Honest assessments are how players improve. I am sure that Duncan says the exact same thing to Boggs’ face.
When did McClellan do the earning?
Its the random, like some, dislike some, that really irritates me about duncan. Its as if he watches a pitcher once and decides what his carrer should be.
McClellan earned it
This spring and early season when he came in and got tough outs. He did it all through spring in every situation they put him in and carried right over into the season.
I am talking about common human decency here, courtesy, respect everyone should be given.
You have to “earn” the right to be talked to and about respectfully? Huh? Seriously? Being a living, breathing, human being means nothing…....wow. Just wow.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Its a different world pro athletes live in
They live a public life and are handsomely compensated for it. It is one of the tradeoffs that come with the job. Public criticism is expected in their job.
I'm speechless.........
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
I'll agree with that to a certain extent
But I think the point people are trying to make (including myself) is that Duncan’s interview quip is more a matter of tact than anything else. A rookie pitcher preparing for his first MLB start (I believe—def. his first start this year) does not need to hear “he’s not MLB ready” from his own pitching coach just before his start.
Now, I haven’t heard the interview so I have no idea if this is being blown out of proportion (it probably is). Its just a matter of confidence, really. Pitching coaches help the pitchers, right? Then I’d rather see him help Boggs by encouraging him instead of pointing out his flaws, that’s all.
by Ray Lankford on Jun 10, 2008 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Or...
Maybe Dunc feels he’s overconfident coming in and is giving him a reason to go out there with a “I’ll stick it up Dunc’s ass” mentality. I certainly don’t think that is out of the question do you?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
who
was disrespected? It seems we’ve gone off on a tangent here that isn’t related to the original post.
Saying Mitchell Boggs isn’t quite ready for a major league rotation isn’t ‘disrespecting” him.
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.
I listen to 670 the score which is a Chicago station
Don Cooper ( a very good pitching coach, not well publicized but good) will discuss a flaw his pithcer is having on the air…. Just like Dunc, it’s not like they pick the guy apart for 10 minutes but most people know the issue the guy is having it’s not not its a secret.
Keep in mind that Cooper occasionally makes something up
He seems really good at dealing with the media.
Managing ballplayers isn't that different
from managing regular people. A competent manager always praises publicly and criticizes privately.
I wonder how TLR would handle it if MO went on the radio and said, “I really don’t understand the substitution pattern Tony used last night. I think he may have lost a little bit of his edge”?
I think TLR/Dunc have been much more aggressive about denigrating players since they won the World Series. It’s kind of like they are thinking, “our place is secure now, screw ‘em if they don’t like what we say.”
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jun 10, 2008 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I doubt Dave is worried about whether he heard it
or not.
Remember, what negative things are said in the media is only unfair if it is about your son.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
1380's broadcast likely doesn't, but the "Listen Live" button on their website does.
Not disagreeing the Dave’s head is a bit large – but just putting out that there may be other things going on that than what is said on the surface.
there is a thing called internet radio
on the interwebs
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 10, 2008 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, at night
it’s not at all out of the question for an AM station in St. Louis to reach Cinci. I live in Tennessee and picked up a Reds game on Cinci radio the other day.
....not 1380
at night 1380 has to lower their signal strength, not sure of the FCC regulation but their signal goes to crap around 5pm every day, can’t even get it good in IL much less OH.
Or maybe
Duncan is just telling it like it is. These young men are not babies. They are playing a hard game at the highest level. If their psyches are so fragile that they cannot handle blunt assessment or criticism then they have no business being on the mound in a major league game in front of thousands of fans and millions of tv viewers.
Agree
I did not hear the interview? but I read a summary and it looked like all Dunc said was Boggs off-speed stuff is not quite MLB ready, but he off sets it with a good fastball with good movement.
How in the hell is that such a bad statement?? Please someone who reads into every single word spoken by Duncan fill me in because I guess I am not smart enough to understand what he said that is causing such a discussion??? Please
I imagine it is because
we all haven’t read the entire transcript and are going off of this statement by the OP:
not quite ready to be a major league starter
Which if Dave said that, coupled with the fact that the organization is actually starting him today in the major leagues look stupid.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I see it this way...
He is major league ready with is FB movement and good velocity but he does not quite have the consistent off speed stuff which is the diff between AAA and MLB baseball, not to say he can’t have good consistent off speed stuff tonight… Which he very well may and his combo of good off speed stuff along with his already good FB will make him a good MLB pitcher… It’s just depnedent on his ability to be consistent….
Reyes is a perect example… He can pitch at the MLB level but just has not been consistent enough to stick and be a good MLB starter….
It’s not a good or bad thing as I see it…...All of these guys have talent the only question is can they be consistent
my only complaint is that he's liklely to go back down
and he could quite likley suceed with one plus pitch over 1 or 2 starts
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Agreed
“If they would remain consistent, everything else would fall into place. A consistent consistency is the most difficult part of being consistent.”
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
I've always thought Mark DeRosa was a great hitter
well, not great but really good. Great hitters like DeRosa just struggle when they don’t have a position to play. I’ve always thought so since Bobby Cox told me.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
He would be a nice piece to have, wouldn't he?
He’s been quite valuable to the Cubs these past two years…..
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Consistent does mean something in this context
just because you can throw a good curve or two in practice does not mean that you can rely upon it in a game, if you don’t have a reasonable expectation of throwing it for a strike
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
that's what I was thinking
why believe what he is saying in the press?
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 10, 2008 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Garcia on three days rest
Really? This is the best option?
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on Jun 10, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Here we go again...
Another false start regarding Mulder…round and round we go…somebody let me know when he’s back on the roster, okay?
Garcia, huh?...hmmmmm. It is encouraging that they are being realistic about Piniero…I never thought that starting him w/o a rehab start was a good idea…that’s what happened last time, right?
The part about Garcia/Reyes doesn't make sense.
If all you need is somebody for 1-2 starts, Reyes is obviously the better choice, as he is already on the 40-man and could pitch on full rest.
by mikedallas45 on Jun 10, 2008 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe the Garcia bit is a red herring
Maybe it is Reyes or someone else. Reds can spend more time looking at Garcia scouting reports when actually it may be someone from AA. Who knows?
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jun 10, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
1-2 starts from a guy who isn’t on the 40 man roster and would have to go on 3 days rest is not the ideal situation. Reyes makes much more sense to everyone except Tony and Duncan. I have to say that I’m excited about seeing Garcia get his shot but wish that he could at least be going on 4 days rest.
I don't envy any pitcher making his first big league start in.......
Cinci or Houston…. both parks can be a bit crazy.
I'm strugg-a-ling
Anyone know where I can find three year park factors just for home runs?
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
I find one years only....guess I'll have to actually do work and import it to excel
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
actually
try this:
http://fantasy411.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/03/mlb_park_factor.html
"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton
Link to interview with Dave Duncan
New to this posting stuff, but if you all want to the interview – you can hear it here
It is Segment 8. I hope I didn’t stir up to much wrong information because I was working during the interview. Hope my info is at least half right!
I think tonight we might just see a slugfest
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 10, 2008 2:59 PM EDT reply actions
You think that little of Homer Bailey?
He only gave up 2 ER (5 total) to one of the best offenses in baseball (the Phillies) last time out.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
4 BB 1 SO 1 HR
Not too far out of line with the past month at AAA too. So no, not really.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
I don't know.....it actually might be better to walk a Phillie than let him hit......they are monster mashers,
especially at Bailey’s home park.
Really, don’t know what to expect. Maybe a little better control this time out, maybe not…..maybe he’ll be hittable, or maybe he’ll wrack up the strike outs.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
And I'm not advocating walks.
But it’s not unreasonable to think that Bailey was being careful, and just ended up being a little too careful to this difficult line up..
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Bailey is no stranger to walking people
Career minor league BB/9 = 4.12
Career major league BB/9 = 5.53
Hey, Cardinals....look at that....make this young work for you.....
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
I didn't even check who was pitching for the Reds
I just felt like throwing out a ridiculous prediction, TLR gut-style
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 10, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
amendment to drinking game tonight
finish your drink if Adam Dunn squares up to bunt
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Has anything been added to the game
about if Molina actually calls for a breaking pitch when Perez pitches?
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
predictions for a Wainer comeback?
I know this might seem like a jinx to some, but post your Wagonmaker return dates
I’ll go with August 1st. any ideas?
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 10, 2008 4:02 PM EDT reply actions
Early April 2009
And I’m not sure that would necessarily be a bad thing. I want him to be 100% next year and the years after that. I’d prefer they not rush him back.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
I would imagine that even if he needs surgery
(unless they wait 2 months to give him the surgery coughcarpentercough) he will be pitching out of the bullpen in late September. They will want to get him some work and if he has the surgery and returns, they will more than likely use him in September to see if he could possibly start again if we make the playoffs.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
if best case with surgery is that late
why not put it off and see if rest will work? Reward: get him back in a couplea weeks. Risk: lose some relief appearances in September?
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
I didn't say a few weeks
I said 8 weeks, actually.
And we know so little about how severe the sprain is that it’s hard to know what would be best. Rest and rehab is always the first choice, of course.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
yes
we’re just guessing here.
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 10, 2008 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe I'm basing it off of past SP in the org. who rushed back only to be shut down
But I am pleading with the organization (well pleading on a blog hoping the organization might possibly read). DO NOT rush him back. He is far too valuable to the mid-to-long term of this franchise to risk him further injuring himself by rushing him back. Chris Carpenter hasn’t pitched a major league game since April 2007. Mark Mulder hasn’t pitched an effective game since May 2007 (IIRC). We don’t need our young stud #2 to suffer the same fate.
I know, I know, elbows and shoulders are completely different than fingers. But I’m very cautious and worried about this situation.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
seems like that might be a little bit unrealistic
unless it’s a severe sprain, then that would be pretty logical. I have a gut feeling since it happened that it’s not that bad a sprain. but I don’t think it would be a bad thing either if he was out for the year and had to give full attention to recovering if needed.
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 10, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure it's so unrealistic
We’ll wait and see. I’d rather him wait until next season and come back as the pitcher he’s been the past year or so than come back ineffective and then further injure the finger. But we’ll see. I’d love nothing more than to be pleasantly surprised.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
DFA Adam Kennedy!
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
Hrmmm.
I’ll go with him starting on August 5th.
And then he’ll be scheduled for surgery two weeks later. Sound familiar?
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Good at Home and Away
Has anyone discussed before that the Cardinals are one of only three teams right now who have a winning record on the road? Well, apparently we are.
Somehow, that makes the team seem even more legit.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
SI, etc. are all starting to discuss
some of the wacky facts about 2008 baseball.
Agreed.
Are we too legit to quit, though?
Good question...
I’m not sure we can blow millions supporting our entourage full of dancers in parachute pants and then become a minister….
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
we may be
I just hope we keep on not knowing defeat and keep on crushing the strong and percolating the weak
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
probably because we're always guessing who is starting
who will play where, etc. Keeps the guys on their toes
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 10, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
i just can't shake this feeling that we are royally screwed
now 4 of our best (gotta count mildew) starters on are on the DL. plus IZZY, Puppy Kicker & TJ. enough is enough with the ptiching injuries already. they have 10 pitchers on the DL for pete’s sake. good greif.
how can the Cards over come this? the only way i see them treading water is if the O just goes bat crap crazy & starts scoring 10 runs a game. and that means Troy, LUD & Rick need to step up their game big time. Albert is really not going to get any thing to hit now. if he thought he was getting pitched around before, he’s really going to get pissed off now. i fully expect him to get the Bonds treatment wtih every at bat.
can those 3 do it? starting tonight, we’ll soon find out.
heal quickly pitchers.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Not all losses are losses
In some of those cases its addition by subtraction
Izzy -> Prez = no real change (possibly a small upgrade)
Pinereo -> Boggs = Probably no real loss and possibly an upgrade again.
Mulder? He is doing what we expected, staying hurt.
Wainwright -> Garcia = Ouch, ok this one hurts.
TJ -> Villone = wash
Thompson -> Worell = upgrade
Wellemeer -> ? = ? Lets hope its not serious.
good point
with Wainer out, Wellemeyer’s health and continued effectiveness will be huge
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 10, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
And Wellemeyer's success
is something Dave Duncan deserves heaps and heaps of praise. Fixing broken pitchers with talent is what Dave does amazingly well.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
lol.
Remember in sprint training when we were all wondering what Wellemeyer was even doing in the rotation.
And now he is our hope…
Last year I pushed him as the high risk/ high upside option
And got laughed at for it. He could as easily washed out but we got lucky and got what we needed. Sometimes when you roll the dice you do get lucky.
and sometimes you get unlucky (see DL)
That’s what’s gonna happen. For ever Wellemeyer or Carpenter, we’re gonna have a few Bloopers or Kippers or Ponsons or Clements. Geez, some people here always talk about getting high-profile players through trades, and look how that turned out for us (Mulder) and SF (Zito).
I, for one, like the Cardinals approach to rotation by reclamation projects. You get some great stories out of it.
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
I thought Looper was doing a good job
As a 5th place starter. It wouldn’t work with both him and Wellemeyer pitching like a 5th starter. But the way Welly has pitched has made it where I do not mind the Cardinals sending Looper out every 5th day.
I still think
that the Barry Zito deal is one of Billy Beane’s all time greatest hits (along with turning a washed up Mulder into Haren, Calero, and Barton, DOH!!!). You get the other team in your geographic location to insanely overpay for a pitcher by talking up how you’d love to sign him, he’s worth $120 million a year, but the club can’t afford him, blah blah blah, then having their payroll tied up by a guy who can’t get anyone out, ensuring better attendance for Oakland.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I Mark-Mulder's-shoulder-severely doubt Zito has even the slightest effect on Oakland attendance
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
I did not laugh at you..........
I thought he had really good stuff, my only question was how many innings could he handle.
I thought on last years team Kip Wells and Welle had probably had the best stuff….....But stuff can only take you so far as Kipper showed.
Mo on 1380 - from Bernie
He’s on with us now on 1380…
Pineiro threw a bullpen today in Cincy and came out of it well and so he’s set to go Thursday.
Wellemeyer set for Saturday.
Clement rehab start on Friday…
Mulder threw today, felt stronger, and will be sent out on another rehab assignment…
Izzy throws rehab assignment tomorrow night, and then throw a side session in STL over the weekend… and then a decision will be made if they send him back to continue the rehab, or put him on the 25-man roster.
As for Waino … several MRIs… reveals no tear… sprain is the diagnosis… will take time…they will monitor and learn more…
About McClellan, Moz prefers to keep him in bullpen; the starting thing would be a last resort thing for this season.
-B
____
boo cubs, hooray beer
Insidestl.com recap
”.Mitchell Boggs is not where you would like him to be He has some refining to do with his off-speed pitches. However, he has an above average fastball with some movement on it. Right now, he will pitch tonight and probably on the 15th against Philadelphia…..”
And that's a fine statement by Duncan
as I said, he may have been more glowing than the original recap. What he said in your recap is honest, saying he ‘wasn’t ready to be a MLB starter’ was more backhanded.
Clearly Dave didn’t say that.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2008 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
How dare the pitching coach
want pitchers to improve!! And to even say so, the gall!
Well who the hell can see forever?
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