fickle finger cont'd
quoting derrick goold’s article in this morning’s post-dispatch:
note the information that’s missing. the article doesn’t say definitively, "the mri revealed no ligament or tendon tears" --- and goold can’t find out whether or not that’s true, because club officials aren’t talking and the medical team (per club policy) is unavailable to talk to the press. makes you wonder. wainwright did tell the post, "surgery is not looking like something that is going to be needed" --- but it’s hard to place full stock in that statement, because it’s exactly what we heard initially when mulder hit the dl in 2006 and carpenter hit it last year. in both of those cases, the club knew from the outset that surgery might be needed, but the possibility was soft-pedaled while other, less intrusive treatments were attempted. when the injuries persisted, surgery was performed as a last resort.
you don’t have to be a conspiracy theorist to suspect that the same pattern might be unfolding here. from a medical perspective, there’s nothing at all sinister about it --- every person i’ve talked to who has any degree of medical experience (and i know a bunch of those people) tells me, "you don’t cut on a guy until you’ve exhausted the other options." pretty straightforward --- but the club has a secretive streak about injuries (you don’t suppose the sunglasses-wearing manager has anything to do with that, do you?) and, consequently, a credibility gap. attempting to fill that gap, i have consulted per MDAdvice.com about finger sprains:
- Mild (Grade I)--Tearing of some ligament fibers. There is no loss of function.
- Moderate (Grade II)--Rupture of a portion of the ligament, resulting in some loss of function.
- Severe (Grade III)--Complete rupture of the ligament or complete separation of ligament from bone. There is total loss of function. A severe sprain requires surgical repair.
wainwright’s injury would seem to fall into the "moderate" category, at a minimum; he clearly has some loss of function. and we can’t rule out "severe," ie total loss of function. back to MD Advice:
- Severe pain at the time of injury.
- A feeling of popping or tearing inside a finger or fingers.
- Tenderness at the injury site.
- Swelling in the finger.
- Bruising that appears soon after injury.
wainwright spoke of a popping sensation, but has reported no severe pain or tenderness; he specifically says there is no swelling. prognosis:
- Mild sprains--2 to 6 weeks.
- Moderate sprains--6 to 8 weeks.
- Severe sprains--8 to 10 weeks
those are average healing times; the cardinals no doubt are hoping wainwright (a professional athlete under close medical scrutiny) will heal much faster. but even if he were to heal in half the time, we’d be looking at a month-long disablement --- plus a couple of rehab starts after that to get his arm back into shape. and there’s always the chance that, like the carpenter and mulder injuries, wainwright’s finger won’t respond favorably to rest/rehab, necessitating a trip to the operating room.
from everything we can piece together, i’m gonna guess that if wainwright pitches again for the cardinals before late july, we probably should consider ourselves very fortunate. medical experts, speak up --- agree? disagree?
let’s just go with that for a moment; say he’s out for 6 weeks. it'll probably be longer, but just go w/ it. heading into the year, it was generally assumed that for the cardinals to make the playoffs, they’d have to keep themselves within striking distance until carpenter returned on or about august 1, and then try to make a late-season run once he rejoined the rotation. as of this morning, they lead the wild-card race by 2.5 games over florida and 4 over milwaukee, with houston and atlanta 5.5 back and the mets 6.5 games out. thanks to that cushion, they can afford to lose some ground in the standings to most of those teams over the next 50 games --- and let’s just prepare ourselves for that, because it very well might happen --- yet still be competitive when (we hope) one or both of carp / wainwright returns. ie, they can give back 10 games to the mets without getting hopelessly buried; they can give back 8 or 9 to the braves and still have a chance to catch up. if they lose big chunks of ground to all those teams and find themselves 5th or 6th in the wild-card race by the time carp / wainwright return, then forget it; they’re probably toast. but even if wainwright’s absent for the next 50 games, they have a reasonable chance to stay within 4 or 5 games of the wild-card lead until the rotation gets healthy. given their current bulge in the standings, that doesn’t seem to be asking the impossible.
and if wainwright needs surgery? definitely a possibility; i’ll worry about that if / when it happens. for the time being, i’m neither optimistic nor pessimistic about the cards’ playoff hopes. adjusting expectations? you betcha. but my expectations have been pretty modest all along. i’m looking forward to seeing boggs tonight; the rest will come in due time.
* * * * * * *
mgl published some UZR data, and it’s pretty consistent with john dewan’s plus/minus figures. both systems have adam kennedy as one of the top 2b glovemen in the league; both place troy glaus among the league leaders at 3b, though well behind scott rolen (who, by the way, hasn’t homered in over a month; he’s stuck on 2 for the year). and both defy the perception that chris duncan is a terrible defender in left field. bernie addressed this in a blog post not long ago, sifting through the fielding metrics to argue that duncan’s glovework is at least adequate. UZR reinforces that argument, ranking duncan as the second-best left fielder in the national league, trailing only paul mcanulty of the padres. i think it’s gotta be a sample-size blip, but it’d be difficult to argue that duncan has cost the cardinals a large number of runs w/ the glove this year --- at least so far. too much evidence to the contrary.
the other interesting note in the UZR data: edmonds rates as the worst centerfielder in baseball, and eckstein is the 2nd-worst shortstop. plus/minus doesn’t rate them quite that poorly, but they’re both about 6 plays worse than the guys who replaced them (ankiel and izturis). if you want two reasons for the improved performance of the st louis pitching staff, start with the defensive upgrades at cf and ss.
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Wagonmaker and surgery
The estimates I saw were that if he has surgery he is out for 4 months. That’s basically the rest of the season, so the team has nothing to lose by sitting him for 4-6 weeks first to see if rest will do the trick. If he still has to have surgery in, say, late July, he should still be back in plenty of time for spring training next year.
by mikedallas45 on Jun 10, 2008 9:00 AM EDT 0 recs
I find it frustrating
that one supports this team and they don’t want/feel the need to tell people the real deal. What are the reasons for this I wonder?
It can’t be that big a competitive edge – all teams get guys hurt, and it’s the beginning of June. Do they not want to discourage future ticket sales?
Seriously – I don’t get it.
I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck
by bukowski on Jun 10, 2008 9:09 AM EDT 0 recs
It's all right
Make yourself a Ham On Rye for lunch and remember that love-even of a ballclub-is a dog from hell.
by bgh on
Jun 10, 2008 9:16 AM EDT
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an advantage to secrecy...
in this regard may lie in having an advantage in possible trade talk. For example, if the Cardinals were trading, say, a certain left-handed hitting 1B to SF for a young arm, then disclosing a season-ending injury to your own #1 pitcher may imply a greater (though true?) need for pitching than the Cardinals would like to expose.
by redrey on
Jun 10, 2008 12:14 PM EDT
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SF is looking for a left-hand hitting 1B?
Who knew?
"Back in the day when I played, a pitcher had 3 pitches: a fastball, a curveball, a slider, a changeup and a good sinker pitch." - Mike Shannon
by nomar34 on
Jun 10, 2008 12:58 PM EDT
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Deja Vu All Over Again
Yesterday, I must have checked the P-D and official site twenty times by lunch. I had a fever and the only prescription was the prognosis on Wagonmaker. After reading the report, it occurred to me how irrational my fever had been, especially in light of the recent history of injured Cardinals. Cloak and dagger is the name of the game when it comes to injured Redbirds, even before they refused access for the press to the club’s medical staff. The club had Wainwright refer all medical questions back to staff, but they don’t let medical staff talk to the media. It’s a vicious circle that will result in no answers, at least until Wagonmaker is back starting or until his DL stint is lengthened—and maybe not even then.
by bgh on Jun 10, 2008 9:10 AM EDT 0 recs
Thankfully
The kids have done a great job filling in so far. If the system was as barren as it was just a couple of years back, I don’t think we could even hope to stay competitive while Wainwright is out.
I don’t know why we even bother waiting for medical news from the Birds. It’s “needs rest”, then “DL for precaution” then “will be back in a couple of weeks” then “surgery, out for the year.”
by Cardinal70 on Jun 10, 2008 9:12 AM EDT 0 recs
The Cardinals are moving closer and closer to finding out whether
the Memphis Cardinals can win the wild card in the majors.
by JMedwick on Jun 10, 2008 9:16 AM EDT 0 recs
Not that much unlike any other year
Our rotation, as of today, consists of: Blooper, El Pineiro, Lohse, The Colonel, and Mitchell Boggs (from Memphis). Our infield, as of today, consists of The Great Pujols, AK, Grit Miles, Ryan, Izturis, Glaus, and Yadi. Our outfield consists of Barton, Ankiel, Ludwick, Skippy, and Mather (from Memphis). Our ‘pen consists of Villone, Springer, Franklin, Flores, McClellan (kind of from Memphis), Perez (from Memphis), and Mark Worrell (from Memphis). All in all, I’d say that we have a fifth stop gap starter, a fourth or fifth outfielder, and two arms in the ‘pen—one of whom throws 95 mph with a nasty slider while the other has proved himself capable in his two appearances, even with the stick (whacking a homer in his first big league AB).
I’d say that, as with any season, we’ve had injuries, had to pull players up from AAA to fill holes, and that those players had proved capable of filling those holes. At least to this point. I would further put forth the idea that all of these players were deserving of a shot in the bigs.
by bgh on
Jun 10, 2008 9:25 AM EDT
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Seems to me like it is important to remember:
A. Skippy ,Ludwick, and Boggs have been career minor leaguers
B. Barton would be in AAA if not for the fact the Rule 5 issues
C. Miles, Ryan, Izturis, Blooper and AK are all playing at a replacement level (i.e. the Cards can find basically the same player as a minor league free agents and in AAA).
D. Pineiro was sent to the minors and DFA’d last year
On that list above the only non AAA/ AAAA players I see are Pujols, Glaus, Yadi, Ankiel (and even here you could make a reasonable argument that on other teams he would still be in AAA for seasoning), and Lohse.
by JMedwick on
Jun 10, 2008 10:10 AM EDT
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Boggs is 25
And was drafted in 2005. He is the first Cardinal from that draft class to make the major leagues. To characterize him as a career minor leaguer is plain wrong. Ludwick missed almost three full minor league seasons with injury. He was a 2nd round draft pick.
by indakind on
Jun 10, 2008 10:17 AM EDT
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calling Boggs a career minor leaguer is completely unfair
boo cubs, hooray beer
by Raconteur on
Jun 10, 2008 12:53 PM EDT
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The whole cloak & dagger bit
over team injury issues is a tad over the top, it seems. Very Bellichek-esque. Of course, it’s not like good ole’ Doc Paletta has a fan club among Redbird rooters. I guess I am somewhat surprised that the club has not staged some sort of PR campaign to help out Paletta’s very negative public image.
Looking at WW’s situation from a different angle…if his finger does somehow heal back to 100% in a month, it is a months less wear & tear on his arm & shoulder. This could possibly be a September blessing in disguise?
Steriods is...is bad.
by Handsome Jimmy on Jun 10, 2008 9:23 AM EDT 0 recs
If memory serves
there was a big brouhaha over the off season because MLB, not just the Cardinals, had made rule changes to reduce access to teams’ medical information. Anybody remember the details? Because I don’t follow any other team nearly as closely as the Cardinals (what a thought), I don’t know whether other teams’ fans are having similar trouble getting a straight story on injuries in the gray area. If something happens that clearly shuts a guy down for a long time, the story usually comes out, but if it’s one of these “wait and see” things, maybe we’re not the only ones in this situation.
I agree that a little mid-season rest for WW is not altogether a bad thing, if he can pitch the second half and be effective. The team has significant depth in starting pitching, for the first time in a long time (and it’s good to have it because it’s being put to the test). Most of the replacements aren’t close to being on WW’s level, but they’re not so far from it as to be an embarrassment.
by StanTheManFan on
Jun 10, 2008 9:38 AM EDT
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More appropriate
Perhaps I shouldn’t have used “cloack & dagger.” Yes, in retrospect, “cloak and scalpel” would have been more appropriate.
by bgh on
Jun 10, 2008 9:55 AM EDT
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please also note
that, once again, UZR rates Pujols as the best first baseman in baseball
by tdawg on Jun 10, 2008 9:36 AM EDT 0 recs
as if there was any doubt?
nice to have stats back up what we already know.
by sdesserman on
Jun 10, 2008 9:48 AM EDT
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UZR rating on Ankiel
Yes I’m ignoring the 800 lb gorilla named Wainwright’s figner….
Any where I can find the break down of everything? I was surprised not to see him in the best list.
by Evilfrog on Jun 10, 2008 10:04 AM EDT 0 recs
no wonder he has a strain...
trying to support an 800 lb gorilla with one finger would be tough
boo cubs, hooray beer
by Raconteur on
Jun 10, 2008 12:54 PM EDT
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CF defense
Anyone else wonder how one-time defensive studs like J’Ed or Andruw Jones turn in to such horrible outfielders? In the formaer case you can chalk it up to age and injuries, but none-the-less its such an awfuly steep decline. Has anyone ever studied correlations between age and CF defense?
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!
by Zubin on Jun 10, 2008 10:09 AM EDT 0 recs
it's crazy.
Griffey is another example—it’s painful to watch guys who were once so smooth lumber around as if they were goofs
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on
Jun 10, 2008 2:38 PM EDT
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Medical Staff
Why do people talk about the Med staff likes it’s the worst in baseball?
How has the Medical Staff failed? You people do realize that people are not meant to be torn apart in certain areas and resume a normal “PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL CAREER”.......
I just don’t get this whole our medical staff is hiding stuff and sucks thing? Did you ever think players don’t want you to know what is wrong with them….......
by ICbirdfan on Jun 10, 2008 10:21 AM EDT 0 recs
I understand what you are saying, IC...
but one of the reasons injury information is made accessible to the public, is to keep gamblers and bookmakers from having a monopoly on that data (because you KNOW they are going to find a way to get it) and thus using it to their advantage…as you probably know, the NFL seems to bend over backwards to make sure that every bump and bruise is documented.
That said, I try not to live my life obsessed with the condition of Wainwright’s finger or Wellmeyer’s elbow or any of that, but it’s kind of like all the celebrity news that we are inundated with…none of it is really our business, but people tend to think they are entitled to “inside” information when you root for a team or follow a movie star and all that.
by tbell61 on
Jun 10, 2008 10:34 AM EDT
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Misdiagnoses and flawed evaluation
See:
Mulder, Mark
Clement, Matthew
Rolen, Scott (although I don’t think the staff is entirely at fault here)
by silent_bob on
Jun 10, 2008 10:36 AM EDT
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Mulder, Clement, Rolen
Mulder- I guess you can say flawed evaluation, but at the same time shoulders are hard to diagnose, and they are not going to perform surgery to see what his shoulder was like prior to signing him…... Part of it falls on the player to say something just is not right and then maybe you can do a more aggressive diagnosis.
Clement- I think he was cheap and they were hoping that his shoulde would gain more strenght. He has not pitched in 2 years? I don’t think they expected Clement to be throwing 95 MPH, besides he is so cheap it’s not a big deal…. I can’t get too hung up on him, lots of teams take risks like this which are low cost possibly high one year reward.
Rolen- He did not want to have full blown surgery right away. Most athletes are not going to opt for full blown surgery if there is a chance they can rehab throgh physical therapy, Rolen rolled the dice and it did not work…...Yes it would probably been better to have surgery right away but I don’t know if it was Rolen’s desier to go under the knife at that time…...
by ICbirdfan on
Jun 10, 2008 10:56 AM EDT
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You're wrong on Rolen
He went with Paletta’s advice to go with the labrum cleanup surgery and it didn’t work-it wasted more than 1/2 a season and Rolen never forgave the organization for that; he sought a second opinion and, although Paletta scrubbed in on the second surgery (labrum repair), Rolen made it pretty clear he didn’t want Paletta cutting on him again.
It’s fine that you aren’t too worked up about Clement, but the fact remains that the team docs evaluated him, considered his shoulder structurally sound and ready to go for spring training. It took Dave Duncan to shut ‘er down and put him through more rehab. In my opinion, that’s proof that the evaluation was not thorough enough.
by silent_bob on
Jun 10, 2008 11:26 AM EDT
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Clement didn't have a new injury
The fact that Clement was shut down had nothing to do with a new injury or an undiagnosed medical condition. It had to do with ability and performance coming off of the rehab from surgery. That is more of a baseball decision in my mind. The team watched him pitch and decided to take a chance that he could become the same or close to the same as he was before surgery. There is no for a doctor to look in a shoulder and tell if he is going to redevelop arm strength or be able to hit 92 on the gun. If it was possible, I might admit a doctor is a god.
by CardFaninTTown on
Jun 10, 2008 12:13 PM EDT
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There are dynamic tests you can run
isokinetic strength testing, for one, is an option.
The physician has to have the forethought to order them, however.
by silent_bob on
Jun 10, 2008 12:16 PM EDT
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The baseball people shouldn't sign
any pitcher coming off a medical problem without seeing him throw. He was alleged throwing with good velocity prior to the signing. All you have to do is see for yourself.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Jun 10, 2008 5:39 PM EDT
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I think the fanbase's issue with the Rolen situation:
...was that he played for a full month despite the fact that he was screaming loud enough to be heard on TV after most swings. It doesn’t take a medical professional to see that there was something wrong with him and that he had no business on a baseball field at the time.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
by joker24 on
Jun 10, 2008 1:40 PM EDT
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Well the med staff can't pull him off the field....
Larussa tried to bench him for the same reason in the 06 play-offs and Rolen threw a fit.
by ICbirdfan on
Jun 10, 2008 1:42 PM EDT
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Still not a valid excuse
If no one had the balls to stand up to Rolen at the time…again he was screaming in pain on most swings…then that isn’t still an indictment over the handling of that?? The inmates don’t run the asylum.
I’m not necessarily one of the “the med staf sux000x lol” (the D-Backs handling of Byrnes this year was brutal: they didn’t get him an MRI because he was scared of what they’d find) but that was just terrible management top to bottom in the organization.
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
by joker24 on
Jun 10, 2008 1:46 PM EDT
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It's hard in my opinion.....
Yes these guys are investments but at the same time you are trying to manage ego’s…...... See contrary to BS that some fans say about guys not playing hard and what not, these guys are driven and there is a reason they are professional athletes.
It’s hard to tell a guy especially in Rolen’s class that he needs to take a seat. Sometimes you let a guy gut it out and most will admit they need to hit the DL…
It’s just not easy at times.
by ICbirdfan on
Jun 10, 2008 1:53 PM EDT
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Someone on another forum made a good point...
Follow any other team in baseball as closely as you follow the Cardinals. Follow them for 3 straight years, the same way you follow the Cardinals, and i’ll bet you’ll see the exact same things with any of those organizations.
boo cubs, hooray beer
by Raconteur on
Jun 10, 2008 12:55 PM EDT
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If Duncan is the 2nd-best LF in the NL
then we are bearing witness to the sorriest bunch of leftfielders in a long, long time.
by Youneverknow on Jun 10, 2008 10:26 AM EDT 0 recs
If the UZR ratings have Duncan as 2nd best,
something is certainly amiss with their rating system. Truthfully, anyone with a calculator and plenty of time could even make the Jeff Tabaka decision a good one.
Steriods is...is bad.
by Handsome Jimmy on
Jun 10, 2008 10:31 AM EDT
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Have you seen Alfonso Sorrianon play? Ryan Braun? Jason Bay? Matt Holliday?
Those guys are not great LF by any means! Hell Sorriano can’t even catch the ball, yeah he can throw guys out, but who cares…... I would rather have my LF catch the ball than be able to throw guys out…
There are a lot of guys playing LF who are not that good…
The thing about Duncan is he does not look pretty at times, but he is tall standing 6’5 and throw in his arm length with a 13-14” glove and you have a long reach… I have noticed he does a nice job of catching balls that go over most LF heads due to his reach.
by ICbirdfan on
Jun 10, 2008 10:33 AM EDT
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Matt Holliday is a poor LF?
When did that happen?
by silent_bob on
Jun 10, 2008 10:36 AM EDT
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You sir, must see Duncan's left field play
differently that I see it. If you think Dunc is a good left fielder, well…to each his own. I admire his hustle and grit, just not his ability in the outfield. He is obviously playing out of his natural position.
Steriods is...is bad.
by Handsome Jimmy on
Jun 10, 2008 10:58 AM EDT
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No I don't think he is a great defender but he is not as awful as people think either.....
Trust me Mather is better than Duncan without a doubt…........
I did not say Duncan is great, but trust me he is not horseshit either..
He does make some plays other LF don’t but he screws up plays as well, it kind of balances out a bit. He is out of postion for sure but I just am not going to say he is awful.
by ICbirdfan on
Jun 10, 2008 11:07 AM EDT
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Duncs D
Everyone thinks duncs D is so bad because it’s so ugly. He catches an easy ball behind his head or between his legs, then smashes into a wall or jams his knee into the dirt. And when he makes an error, he’ll go ahead and make 2 of em to really piss people off….
But the stats say that he catches more balls than a lot of others, and that doesnt lie.
by cd on
Jun 10, 2008 11:41 AM EDT
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It's not his defense that was the problem
Dunc’s lack of offense (and Mather’s hot streak) this year was the reason he was sent down.
So far I haven’t seen that Dunc has regained his stroke at Memphis.
by gocards62 on
Jun 10, 2008 12:37 PM EDT
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Duncan, all righties, and positioning
Mitchel Lichtman has previously confessed that an odd preponderance of righties/lefties and the positioning of a fielder could bias his UZR rating. Does he address that is his latest measures?
Why couldn’t that be happening with Duncan? The Cardinals are notably anal on positioning and usually do it specific to what pitcher we have up. He so far has mostly always played with a right-handed starters, wouldn’t this make him play more so in the gap/down the line than other LFs depending on the handedness of the batter?
by enoscountry on Jun 10, 2008 10:49 AM EDT 0 recs
maybe a fair point
But isn’t the overall argument against Duncan playing that he is costing us runs. If he compares well against others at the same postion favorably, then he woud be worth keeping in the outfield. I know if we positioned other better OFs in the same position they might get to more balls, but then again if Duncan is hitting he might have a better stick than a lot of guys and he is most likely far cheaper. The reason I felt Duncan needed to go back to Memphis was his inability to hit consistently anymore.
by CardFaninTTown on
Jun 10, 2008 12:21 PM EDT
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Earlier in the season
Duncan’s ABs were coming at Ludwick’s expense, which made no sense as Luddy hits both righties and lefties better than Duncan and is a better defender. If it comes down to a choice between Duncan and Skippy, then I would still choose Duncan provided he returns to a reasonable facsimile of himself at the plate.
The only way Shumaker should get playing time (if everyone is healthy and playing well) is if he could somehow manage to be significantly better defensively in CF than our other options. I don’t see that happening. He makes no sense as a corner OF.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on
Jun 10, 2008 5:45 PM EDT
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I'm pretty sure EVERY team is anal on positioning
(And you could easily read that statement the wrong way)
"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA
by joker24 on
Jun 10, 2008 1:48 PM EDT
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de lurking to say
a local sports show just had a pretty interesting interview with Dave Duncan this morning. It will be online soon on www.insidestl.com. Click the link to the morning after and then find the segment with the interview. It was pretty fascinating stuff.
mel
by mel1975 on Jun 10, 2008 10:54 AM EDT 0 recs
Ligament vs. tendon
The hand is a very intricate and complicated structure. In very simplified terms, however, the difference between a tendon tear and a ligament tear in the finger is significant.
As LBoros highlighted, the word “sprain” is basically a synonym for “tear.” It’s important to point out, though, that sprains are graded on a continuum. A mild sprain involves microtearing of collagen fibers; a moderate sprain involves moderate to significant disruption of the ligament; and a severe sprain involves significant to full tearing of the ligament.
All the speculation yesterday was based on the assumption that Wagonmaker tore (Bernie used the “rupture” term on his forum) a finger tendon. Thus the Will Carroll prediction that he could be out 4 months. The fact that Carroll also said Cardinals were contacting the Tigers about how they handled the Zumaya situation seemed ominous; whether or not that actually happened we know not.
Remember that tendons connect muscles to bone. A torn finger tendon is a much more devastating injury and surgery is a likely outcome. In addition, a clinical exam can usually rule in/out a tendon tear as specific resistance tests will either reproduce the pain or show specific weakness.
My guess is that Adam presents with a moderate to severe sprain of a ligament in the finger. The MRI confirmed it…rest is the treatment of choice here. No guarantees on his outcome of course with this conservative treatment.
So are the Cards playing poker with this? Absolutely…right or wrong, they always do. But medically speaking, they aren’t doing anything out of the ordinary here.
by silent_bob on Jun 10, 2008 11:13 AM EDT 1 recs
By the way
I’m 90% sure I know the hand specialist that Paletta referred Wainwright to; he’s in the same building and he’s an excellent surgeon. I do trust his judgement.
by silent_bob on
Jun 10, 2008 11:16 AM EDT
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To Silent Bob
I’m a physical therapist also, I’d be happy to help right articles on various health related rehab related topics. Let me know. You can send me an email at rob@justcallrob.com if you’re interested.
Disc Dog Rob, PT
by Disc Dog Rob on
Jun 10, 2008 2:20 PM EDT
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SB, would you...
talk to LB about doing a Medical post weekly or monthly? Just talking about common injuries, especially those facing our pitchers.
by StLHugo on
Jun 10, 2008 11:49 AM EDT
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If its something people are interested in
I’m up for doing that.
I do not feel that I’m a very talented writer, unlike LB, Red Baron, Houston, and Azru (I’m a physical therapist)...but if the masses call for it I can give it a shot…
by silent_bob on
Jun 10, 2008 12:00 PM EDT
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Physical therapy
I’m a PT student in my first year at a DPT program. Cool to see another PT on VEB. Since I’m only a first year student, my “medical expertise” is more like “medical novice” but I’m in agreement with what you had to say above. You don’t happen to be a hand specialist, do you? Maybe you could work with Wagonmaker? Seriously though, I’ve wondered if the Cards have a PT on staff and why they have so many problems getting ROM back for players who have went through surgeries.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on
Jun 10, 2008 12:51 PM EDT
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I would definitely be interested....
your medical posts are always very very interesting.
boo cubs, hooray beer
by Raconteur on
Jun 10, 2008 12:57 PM EDT
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piling on here
I’m always very interested in your take on the medical stuff, SB.
by DCGreg on
Jun 10, 2008 2:31 PM EDT
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there's something like that...
over at another SBN blog, Conquest Chronicles. Paragon SC runs a series called “Injury Clinic”, usually in response to an SC football player getting injured, but its a pretty comprehensive medical explanation of the causes/symptoms/treatments associated with football injuries that you always hear about but us laymen don’t necessarily understand. its a nice addition and i think something like that for baseball would be great to have around here.
dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas
by Neth on
Jun 10, 2008 12:16 PM EDT
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Cloak & Dagger
First off, I love this site and read it everyday. It makes living behind enemy lines in chicago a little easier when I can read about the birds on the bat by great fans who in many instances have wonderful insights. So thank you.
I’m sure that this is an unpopular statement that will be slammed by the readers here but….I don’t see the big issue with the cardinals keeping the fans in the dark about the extent of injuries until they are 100% sure on the course of action. I’m sure that they have their reasons for opperating the way that they do. Sure it’s frustrating for us fans, but they have to do what is best for the team. Maybe it’s because of trades or some other reason that they are secretive, I really don’t know. But I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and trust that they will do what’s best for the team.
by cardinal fan in chicago on Jun 10, 2008 11:18 AM EDT 0 recs
you're not in a small minority
i agree with you (and oldbirdwatcher below); I’m sure many others do too. It’s usually those who are upset who want to talk about it most. I understand their point of view, I just don’t share it.
Another issue I have with these complaints is that some people usually demand information right away and complain when it doesn’t come. The reality is this injury occurred over the weekend and many medical/info staff for the Cards only started working on Monday – these people have other lives unlike us. I wish people would wait a week, see what we know, then make their assessment of the organization’s honesty/openness.
by enoscountry on
Jun 10, 2008 11:31 AM EDT
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doctor- patient confidentiality
I have always wondered how the Cards/ MLB (all professional sports really) deal with this in regard to giving out information about a players injury. Sometimes I am surprised at the kind of information that IS given out since it could have repercussions on a players future earnings. I would think that some players just wouldn’t want all the information put out there.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on
Jun 10, 2008 6:46 PM EDT
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I am confused
by the angst expressed in some posts about the Cardinals’ secretiveness over Wainwright’s finger injury. I am one of those people with medical experience that LB referred to in his post. Obviously, he is correct that surgery is a last resort. The data he quoted from the medical wevbsite confirm two things: 1) Healing time varies widely at all levels of injury, and no one can predict who will be fast or slow to heal. 2) Need for surgery is also not predictable—only time can tell. So what has the team been duplicitous about? The team, nor anyone else, does not know any more about the time frame, and they have denied any imminent need for surgery without totally ruling it out. So let’s back off, hope for the best and try to prepare for whatever may happen.
by oldbirdwatcher on Jun 10, 2008 11:29 AM EDT 0 recs
Secretive versus Duplicitous
I don’t think anyone was arguing that the Cardinals organization is deceitful. It’s just the constant lack of pertitent details that is vexing.
For example, the Cards announced that Wainwright suffered a “sprain to the finger.” Oooookay, but what’s the severity of the sprain? Mild? Grade II? Rupture? They also didn’t completely confirm it was a ligament versus a tendon, although “sprain” certainly implies a ligament. If it’s a major tear, they should have been able to see that in the MRI, but they don’t say whether it’s a severe tear.
They then instruct Ada…sorry, ADAM, to defer all questions to the medical staff, which has then been instructed to refuse to answer any questions.
Essentially, they are deliberately concealing information.
Now, they may indeed have a good business reason to do so, but it doesn’t make it any less frustrating for us fans that want to know, realistically, whether or not we can count on Wainwright to come back after a few weeks of rest (mild sprain), or whether we should plan on the likelihood of him getting surgery and being out for the year (severe sprain).
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
by Mr Clean on
Jun 10, 2008 4:06 PM EDT
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Rotation and Spot Starts Next Couple of Weeks
Dave Duncan was just on 1380 here in St. Louis. He had a couple of interesting things to say about the upcoming starts and who was taking them.
- Dave didn’t sound too excited about Boggs starting tonight – not quite ready to be a major league starter
- Sounds like Garcia will get the nod for Thursday’s start. McClellan not really an option because they feel that only one or two starts were needed. Neither is Reyes for the same reason. Piniero is probably not ready to start yet because of the time off.
- Really, really encouraged about Mulder and the tweak to his motion. Feels that he took to it immediate and the results are showing immediately.
- Encouraged by Clement and his progress. Feels that he shoul

