All the Young Dudes
by the red baron on May 31, 2008 11:31 AM EDT
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PrintThe storms that rolled through the area last night have left me temporarily without power. So it is that I find myself up at my parents' house, badly hungover, having taken an ice cold shower before leaving home, and cursing this inquisitorial torture device known as dial up. In short, it's been somewhat less than an ideal morning up to this point. Moving on...
The story of the night, of course, had to be the debut of Joe Mather. A fantastic diving catch to keep the Pirates off the board, another very good running catch in the same inning, and what turned out to be the difference making run in the game. Not a bad night for the kid as it turns out.
Mather's debut continues a season long trend. He becomes the sixth player to make his debut with the Cardinals this year. What's more impressive than that, though, is the amount of success that those players have had. With the exception of Rico Washington, every one of those rookies has come out and exceeded expectations. Whether Mather continues that trend or not remains to be seen, but it's certainly exciting to see so much young talent entering into the fold.
Tangential thought alert: Watching SportsCenter. Highlights of the Cubs' victory yesterday, I'm struck by two thoughts. One, I'm more than a little surprised at just how much it's pissing me off to watch highlights of Jim Edmonds in that jersey. Two, I've stayed away from most news sources to this point, and I may have to continue to do so, because I'm not going to be able to handle hearing the word 'destiny' thrown around in reference to the North Siders. It's beyond disgusting.
Second tangential thought: Highlights of the Celtics-Pistons game on now. Apparently, the Pistons decided the best way to beat the Celtics, and Paul Pierce, would be to just mug the guy nonstop. As much as we complain about the umpires in baseball, they're not even in the same class of incompetence as the referees in the NBA. I'm not a basketball fan, so I rarely have cause to notice, but every time I do watch a game, or even just a highlight reel, I invariably see several missed calls, just as a matter of course. Yikes.
Back to business. Something I found interesting, watching as the bullpenners made the game far more interesting than it should have been, is that there seems to be a growing dichotomy among our relief corps, between the veterans and the kids. It seems, at least for the moment, that the shutdown guys in the pen, the guys we want to see in the games, are all the kids, and the vets are typically the guys who we all fear seeing. Last night, we saw Villone, who did a nice job with his three pitches of the night, and Springer, who gave up a runner but got the job done, and then it got a little iffy. Flores did his usual job, recording a pair of outs but allowing two baserunners, and then Franklin, Mr. Drinking Game himself, allow the Pirates to climb back to within one before finally closing it out.
Third tangential thought: I hate John Kruk. He's now on SC, talking about the Cubs. According to him, if Kerry Wood can stay healthy, the Cubs are going to run away with the division. I have a serious problem with that. The Cubs currently carry the best record in baseball, and yet still the Cardinals are only a game and a half off the pace. How much better do you really expect the Cubs to play? Is a .750 winning percentage at home really sustainable? Oy.
In contrast to the vets, the kids have been nearly unhittable. Perez in particular has just blown the competition away every time out, and McClellan, after struggling very briefly, has come back out and dominated. Even Parisi, who we'll see make the start today, has been outstanding, with the exception of one bad curveball in Los Angeles.
So my discussion fodder today is this: how does everyone feel about the way the bullpen is currently being used and currently constructed? Are you happy with the vets in the roles they're in, or do you want to see the kids used in more late situations? Don't get me wrong, it's not as if Perez or K-Mac are being used just in mop up roles, but I'm just curious to see what everybody thinks about the relief efforts. Should things continue on the way they have been to this point, or would you prefer to see the kids move into even more prominent roles? Or, does it even matter to you? As long as the Cards win, do you care who pitches?
I'm going to program a game thread and an overflow now, as I have no idea when my power, and internet access, are going to be restored, so I'll ask if the other moderators here could keep an eye out to make sure that they launch alright later in the day. Thanks everybody, and have a nice weekend.
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Turned the game off with one out in the ninth...
now I gotta go check the box score…ughh!
As for the pen…I think it’ll take care of itself. TLR will slowly move the kids (KMac and Perez) into the primary setup and closer roles. I still think Villone and Springer are very capable pitchers…and that Franklin is serviceable. Flores is done.
A quick look at thebaseballcube.com
...shows that Flores is sporting a 7.43 K/9, which isn’t too shabby. Unfortunately for Mr. Flores, that is accompanied by a ghastly BB/9 of 6.75. Yes, that’s right: 6.75. Eeegads. His WHIP sits at an equally horrid 1.70. Somehow his ERA was in the 1.70 recently. Where are the 2004 versions of Ray King and Steve Kline when you need them?
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on May 31, 2008 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
speaking of Ray King
the Astros signed him, to a minor league deal (i believe). he, as of last Thursday, is on his way to AAA Round Rock.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on May 31, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Won't happen.
I don’t think it should happen, either. It will be interesting to see how he performs when/if he comes back this year, but I think they will and should coax him along through the end of the season. I’m not saying to just stuff him back into the closer role, but they shouldn’t just cut him loose. Flores is running out of excuses, though. It’s a shame that TJ is such a knucklehead that he won’t keep himself ready to pitch.
Maybe they will find a way that Izzy can stay “hurt” until September. Then, he isn’t in the way of somebody else, and he can retire with some dignity. If they can trade him, I’d be alright with that.
Yeah...I don't see how the Cubs are running away with the division when we are right on thier tail.
"Why does he keep saying that?"
and the cubs will not have the pirates to dominate any more
later in the season. rarely does a team stay in first the majority of the season anyway. and there’s alwasy the wildcard, which I’ll be surprised if it doesn’t fall in the Central
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
If we can keep doing
what we are doing I think it is going to come down to the season series against the cubs. National media will continue to write us off while anointing Chicago because, until we prove them wrong, they will want to make themselves look smart with their preseason predictions. Its annoying.
by hoofhearted-pujols on May 31, 2008 12:22 PM EDT reply actions
hate to say it
but….
Chi-town
RS: 314 RA: 225
STL
RS: 255 RA: 225
They’ve played a pretty tough schedule as well (though that won’t stop with CWS and TB on their June interleague schedule). Also they’ve been able to sweep some series, including one against the d-backs.. (something we surprisingly haven’t done..)
yeah, their numbers are amazing
and by amazing i mean non sustainable.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
kind of like a 2004 cardinals team?
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
I love how people throw around the term "un-sustainable"
as if its fact things will change. In all actuality, everything is sustainable. Is it really hard to do? Yup. But still.
The thing to worry about with the cubs is their depth. They are the strongest team in the National League talent-wise. Their starting 8, bench, rotation and bullpen are solid. No real weaknesses. Their hitters (for the most part, ahem, Soriano) take great at-bats and are relentless scorers. If they get up on you, they don’t let off. Zero easy outs in the entire lineup. Plus, they have a TON of confidence going right now and that helps a lot.
Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)
Worry about the depth, but also worry because they don't quit. They have had some
spectacular come from behind wins; some hard fought extra inning games-won a few and lost a few, and even came back a few times after a blown save. But hey, the Cards have hung right with them. A lot can and will happen before October rolls around.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
The 2004 Cardinals
didn’t play .750 baseball the whole season. In fact, at the end of May they stood 27-23.
They are 15-6 over their last 21 games (.714). That won’t last.
by Hardcore Legend on May 31, 2008 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
It might not have to last
but there’s no reason it will not.
Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)
That's like saying
a player could hit 1.000. Sure, it’s possible but HIGHLY unlikely.
by Hardcore Legend on May 31, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
1.000 is MUCH more unlikely than .714
I completely understand your point. But, my question is, are the cubs closer to the team at home or the team on the road? I would say the team at home. While it may be unsustainable for them to play as well as they have at home, I would also claim that it is unsustainable for them to be 3 games under .500 on the road. Where does that even out? I’m not smart enough to figure it out, but it’s probably pretty good.
Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)
That reminds me of my high school physics teacher's skewed views on probability
“Everything has a 50:50 chance of occurring. Either it will, or it won’t.”
“So Mr. O’Neal, if you roll a die, what are the odds a 6 comes up?”
“50:50. Either it will be a 6 or it won’t be.”
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
Well they do have a 3B who is hitting
while ours is not. To me Glaus is becoming the key to the Cards’ season. If he starts hitting (and by extension, the team starts scoring runs), the Cardinals wil be in the race in September.
I think we are going to have to out-pitch them
unless Mather dramatically effects the offense, Ryan gets more playing time, or Glaus heats up. I don’t expect Ryan Dempster to be this good all year btw, so is the Cubs starting rotation really that much better than ours? I think our bullpens are about equal. it should be very interesting
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2008 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Bullpens aren't close
Cubs ‘pen is much better, although Cards is getting better.
Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)
Cubs pen could be considered much better if Wood pans out
But I’m not betting on it
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
If Wood pans out
The cubs bullpen blows away the Cardinals. If he doesn’t, they still have Marmol who is on his own level of filthy.
Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)
So far he's been both good and bad......who knows.
But they could move Marmol or Hendry into that role if necessary. Hendry had a rough start, but he’s been pitching well lately.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Howry?
Or Hendry, the GM?
Or am I just an idiot?
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
Oh, yeah. I mean Bobby Howry. Doh! I know Hendry is the GM....
No, sir. I am the idiot.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
so is Perez
albeit less experienced. tbd as to how that will affect his performance.
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not worried, not at all, about Mr. Perez. He's looked great.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Grammar police on myself......He has looked great. (Damn fingers)
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
I think your use of a contraction
there was correct…or at least passable.
"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver
by player2bnamedl8r on May 31, 2008 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay. I was right the first time.......I'm so worried about those things.....
Nevermind.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
it's correct
I think. I think that Perez is possibility even better than Marmol. we’ll have to see.
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
you could also ask
“based on what” from the other end. Just because Perez is a rookie doesn’t mean he isn’t just as good or better than Marmol.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Well, then I guess we could ask that question all day
If everything is subject to interpretation and relevence of one’s point of view, I guess everything then comes into question.
But, I’ll take my visual evaluation of “stuff” along with the year and a half track record of being unhittable, over a guy who has made 7 appearances againgst teams and hitters who have never faced him before.
Carlos Marmol is agruably the best relief pitcher in baseball. I’ve said it before, but to be second to him is not something bad. Heck, I could care less if Perez ever becomes better than Marmol. Almost as good is good enough for me.
Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)
I don't doubt for a minute that Perez is filthy
but he’s pitched like 6 times. Compare that to Marmol being unhittable for a year and a half.
Also, they’re sort of different pitchers. While both throw major heat, Marmol’s stuff has ridiculous movement. IMO, he’s much more shut down than Perez is. That’s not a shot at Perez. Not being quite as good as Marmol is still really good.
Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)
What this means is that...
The Cards are outperforming their Pythagorean by a game and a half.
The Flubs are underperforming by 2 full games.
Things would be a lot different if those numbers were reversed. We’d be eight out right now.
We swept the Nationals the first week of the season
And should have swept Colorado as well…damn rainouts…
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
Good pitching always beats good hitting ...Although I guess good pitching could beat okay hitting.
We can take em… Hell, we already did once this year.
Also our offense can improve and I hope it will.
I’m still forecasting 95 wins and a wild card berth with the Cubs taking the division.
"Why does he keep saying that?"
Oh, fun...
I’m going to have Mott the Hopple stuck in my head all day. Thanks, RB!
Well who the hell can see forever?
did anybody know (i didn't)
that David Bowie wrote “All the Young Dudes” ??
blank”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_the_Young_Dudes%28song%29
I actually thought it was a Bowie song
(him singing and everything) until I was about 16 or so and started diggin through my old mans vinyls.
Well who the hell can see forever?
I never knew it was anything but a David Bowie song
I only knew it from his live albums. I was totally out of the Mott the Hopple loop.
by BTown Birds fan on May 31, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh....
there were a lot of people out of the “Mott the Hoople” loop—by choice!
(Geez, now I’ve got that song in my head… E-Gad!)
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on May 31, 2008 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
And for once
I didn’t get a song stuck in my head, nice try RB.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on May 31, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Tomorrow's post is on Chris Duncan
Titled: All the Way to Memphis
by Youneverknow on May 31, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Good Idea
But for Lil Dunc I’d go with some Skynyrd.
“I’m headed down a highway got a suitcase by my side
Blue skies hangin’ over my head I got 500 miles to ride
I’m goin’ down to Memphis town to play a latenight show
I hope the people are ready there ‘cause the boys are all ready
to go.”
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on May 31, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Or "Memphis in the Meantime"
by John Hiatt.
"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver
by player2bnamedl8r on May 31, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, A John Hiatt fan.....
He should be a national treasure…....too bad most folks have never even heard of him.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
I love Hiatt too
and that’s my favorite of his songs.
I'd go with
Marc Cohn’s “Walking in Memphis”....
If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.
Your gonna be a Star...
fwiw I used to think All the Young Dudes was Bowie too.
I was like, Mott the who…?ple
If you are in St. Louis check out my band, Griffin and the Gargoyles
(formerly Gargoyle Reign, Gargoyle Lounge)
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
:-D
by jealousblues on May 31, 2008 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
crap
“your going to be a star”
only works if its right after “all the way to Memphis”
If you are in St. Louis check out my band, Griffin and the Gargoyles
(formerly Gargoyle Reign, Gargoyle Lounge)
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
:-D
by jealousblues on May 31, 2008 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Or "I've Been To Memphis"
by Lyle Lovett (and his Large Band)
by BTown Birds fan on May 31, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Cards Fan on the Northside
So I’m an avid Cards fan living on the Northside of Chicago. Like most Cards fans, I have a strong dislike for the Cubs. Went to the Cubs game yesterday actually, and even though I was cheering for the Rockies, it was cool to see Jimmy Edmonds have a good game. I don’t really care that he picked up with the Cubs. I hope he has enough success to stay with them. I’d like to see him finish the year with a contender.
That being said, up here in Chicago, most Cubs fans completely dismiss the legitamacy of the Cards this year, which I love. It’s looking as if we are only going to get better this year as our staff continues to get healthy and the young bullpen studs continue to improve and gain more prominent roles as you pointed out. Being on the Northside, nothing would please me more than seeing the Cards celebrate an NL Championship at Wrigley Field, utterly destroying the Cubs “season of destiny.” Tell me you wouldnt all love to see that?
oh hell yeah
that would be awesome. yeah, I’m surprised by the aura of dismissal that many cubs fans have towards the cardinals team. like just because the cardinals couldn’t beat them last year (despite a season full of drama that would render most teams in last or near last place) and the cubs won the division last year, all the sudden they are the “team to beat”. yeah right. seems like a little selective memory is being employed.
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
oh yeah
Remember when Harry Carey called Tom Pagnozzi “Panozzo” every single game the cards played against the cubs? it was as if he had a very good faulty memory.
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2008 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Caray's memory stood in inverse ratio to the innings and the amount of cool, refreshing beverages he consumed over the course of the game.
A long tim ago when Sunday double headers were the rule, Caray would broadcast part of the second game from the bleachers. Classics – Caray was calling a game only he could see. He’d pass the microphone to characters in the bleachers wtih whom he made lasting Budfriendships. Wonder if anyone has tapes of some of those games?
Yeah
Facts are stupid to them, they just get in the way of the truth or something.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on May 31, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
According to gmLI (game leverage index)...
Here’s a descending list (in descending order) of how TLR uses our pen:
FYI, FanGraphs explains leverage index here
Izzy 1.76
Franklin 1.74
McClellan 1.64
Flores 1.38
Villone 1.19
Perez .97
Springer .83
Parisi .62
Oh, and by the way...
Kudos for the Mott the Hoople reference…
maybe the Cards should pick up on that song and start playing it at the park as a theme instead of that song from the Six Flags commercial. I cringe a little inside every time that song starts blaring.
Why the Edmonds hate?
It isn’t like the Cards offered him megabucks to stay but he mugwumped to the hated rival with both middle fingers extended. Historically, when the team has dismissed much-loved stars (Pendleton, etc.) who’d have been happy to continue with the team, they’ve been treated well when they come back. It’s only the ones who leave with a (bleep)-you attitude that get ripped, and for the attitude, they deserve it.
Personally, I’m happy to see Jed have one last bout of personal success. I just wish it was in a losing cause more often … but patience, it will be.
Agree
I wish him the best. I suspect for some people it’s just hard to reconcile Jedmonds in a Cubs uniform.
I watched the video of his two-run double yesterday. Rockies centerfielder shaded over to left, even against a righthander. Interesting that they didn’t think he’d get around on a pitch.
by Youneverknow on May 31, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Likewise
I wish Jimmy Baseball no ill.
It’s a business for him, and this may be his last shot. Sucks that he ended up with the Cubs, but he did go to San Diego first.
He’ll get a rousing ovation from me when the little bears visit Busch next. I’ll just cheer even louder when we then get him out…
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Every time I see Jimmy Baseball,
I want to shout, “You’re out of uniform, soldier!”
He just looks so… wrong... in that Cubbie Blue!
Hey, people will still pay one to play; make ‘em tear the uniform off ya! I dunno how much “gas” is left in JEd’s tank, but I don’t wish him ill. The Cubs, on the other hand….
Jes’ wait until they face some adversity and the “100-years” question starts popping up more frequently; can this group handle that particular pressure?
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on May 31, 2008 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
as for the bullpen
I think that not only are McClellan and Perez more excited to watch, they are also better pitchers than anyone in the bullpen. can’t wait to see them migrated towards the end of the game relief roles. very nice one-two there.
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2008 12:52 PM EDT reply actions
in terms of stuff
I sure do prefer McClellan’s slider over Franklin’s & Perez’ fastball over Isringhausen’s, though I’m still worried about McClellan catching too much plate & Perez too little.
In the end, that doesn’t matter (IMO) because if this isn’t going to be the year for the young, then when will it be?
Pen
Honestly, I don’t know what else could really be done at this point. Springer, Franklin, and Villone are serviceable arms and still seem capable of filling roles out there. Personally, I would like to see Perez as the closer until they figure out what to do with Izzy, but Franklin has done fine out there. As long as this group doesn’t start shooting the team in the foot again I think it will be okay.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on May 31, 2008 1:25 PM EDT reply actions
Franklin is fine
except in the last 2 games he let the other team nearly comeback and tie or defeat us
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
which is a heckuva lot better than Izzy was doing.
If he starts blowing games then we can be concerned
"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."
That's about right
Franklin has been perfectly fine except for these last two appearances.
His OPS allowed is only .678, and although his walks are up a touch, he’s not letting too many guys on base. Unless these last two appearances continue and he starts to completely unravel, Franklin probably shouldn’t be the focus of our bullpen concerns right now.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
re: our bullpen
I’d still like to see us make a run at Brian Fuentes. I agree with your points about most of our pitchers, but it’d be nice to have a veteran guy in there that we CAN trust. I’d much rather have Fuentes as one of our lefties than Villone, and I don’t think we would cost an absolute ton.
On with the (good) youth movement!
the problem I see with Fuentes
is that he would probably have to become out closer. I think he is a FA after this year and as a guy who can close should command a lot of money.
So he either becomes the closer (and Perez the set up), or we end up paying him a lot for set up or whatever.
If you are in St. Louis check out my band, Griffin and the Gargoyles
(formerly Gargoyle Reign, Gargoyle Lounge)
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
:-D
by jealousblues on May 31, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Disagree...
If he is traded, I think you’ll see teams (in contention) go after him to shore up a weak back-end of their bullpen. Teams like the Yankees, now that Joba has been shifted to the rotation, or even Boston, where the bullpen is under-performing outside of Papelbon and Okajima.
(Yes, of course these teams are usually in the discussion w/ every above-average player who may be available, but I believe i was reading Jayson Stark the other day and he mentioned that the Yanks are definitely interested in Fuentes, but that the Rockies want a “high up-side young arm” for him.) Clearly, he will not be taking over Mo Rivera’s role if they acquire him.
I think that
I don't think that...
A team MUST offer him the closer spot. Nor do I think we need him in StL with all of the potential arms we have on the farm to come out of the bullpen. The team shouldn’t give up a “high up-side arm” to rent Fuentes for a few months.
Why not?
If the Cards find themselves in contention down the stretch and can shore up their bullpen for the rest of the year with a proven closer/reliever, why would they chose to go with a rookie who’s just getting his first work above AAA?
Down the stretch, I’d rather have a known commodity than potential.
Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)
Yes, of course you'd rather have a known commodity...
But,
1. It’s the end of the second month of the season, and we have zero clue where this team will be even in August, yet alone the end of September; and
2. Again, the Rockies aren’t just going to give him away. Who can we offer them for him? Reyes? I doubt they’ll take a flier on him at Coors.
Garcia? Are you really willing to part with him for a 2 month rental?
-If we can move Bryan Anderson, that would be a different story, but I thought this team way trying to rebuild depth in the system and not give it away for 32 year old veterans, giving us 20-25 IP on the season.
I'm not saying we have the pieces to acquire him
In all honesty, I don’t think we do. But you said you’d rather have the potential arms over someone who is a 2 month rental and i disagree.
And yes, it is only the end of May, but Fuentes isn’t available right now either. No one is. But, like I said “down the stretch”. Which means late in the season IF we are in contention. In that situation, I would take Fuentes over any of our AAA guys.
Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)
Fair...
But, firstly, there are a bunch of guys available now or will be shortly. Check mlbtraderumors.com.
Second, like I said, I think Fuentes is good. Despite this, even IF we are in contention down the stretch, this team needs to use it’s assets to acquire a middle infield bat.
Look at 2006: We rode a young ADAM, Flores, Josh Kinney, Tyler Johnson, et al. to a title. With Parisi, Perez, Motte, Garcia and all the other young arms in the ‘pen, I truly can’t understand giving up any of our arms for a reliever. Yes, the bullpen has been a little taxed as of late, but as we have both acknowledged, it is early, and the team is 1.5 back.
Rumors
just because there are rumors (or even teams talking) doesn’t mean players are available. You won’t see trades for at least a month to a month and a half. No one is available right now unless that player is DFA’d and I think we’ve seen enough of those pickups the past two seasons to understand the ability level of those players.
Middle infield, solidify the bullpen, maybe another starter, leadoff hitter? There’s quite a few spots this team could use an upgrade.
But, dj bure, you are correct. it is still early and a lot can (and will) happen.
Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)
Dj Bure?
Well certainly, these are rumors. I mean…aren’t all “trades” just rumors until the team (or ESPN) makes an announcement. I refuse to believe that a trade could not happen today.
In fact, there have been a handful of trades that have already taken place this season. (I think Paul DePodesta talked about one on his blog…yup, here: http://itmightbedangerous.blogspot.com/2008/05/baek-for-wells.html).
I do agree with you that the trading will be more profound after the Draft.
Yeah, DJ Bure
That’s your married name, correct?
Okay, okay. Someone might get traded today. But it’s not going to be anyone of any significance to a playoff team like a proven closer.
Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)
Like say ...
Adam Wainwright, Josh Kinney, or Tyler Johnson? Those unknown commodities seemed to work out ok in ‘06. I’m not saying that wasn’t an aberation, but I don’t think your point is 100% accurate based on recent history. I would take McClellan over Springer right now any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
thats maybe what teams will want to do
But I doubt thats what Fuentes wants to do.
I garentee he wasnts to close, for the challange, and the respect…and he will stand to make much more closing career wise than mid rotation.
Look at Percival? He wanted to close and got a job, after years of injury and being as old as he was (and having basically taken a year or two off)
If you are in St. Louis check out my band, Griffin and the Gargoyles
(formerly Gargoyle Reign, Gargoyle Lounge)
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
:-D
Fuentes has handled various roles with the team.....
They move him for awhile when he hits a bad stretch, then move him back when the other guy (Corpas?) hits a bad stretch. Fuentes is a good pitcher, but a bit inconsistent from time to time. I would have no problem with him being added to the staff. I see him as a guy you can use wherever you want.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Yes,
I agree that Fuentes is versatile. I’m not arguing he isn’t a good pitcher. He has a career K/9 of nearly 10, a BB/9 under 4, and a WHIP under 1.25.
My only questions would be what “high up-side arm” do we: (a) have to trade CO; that (b) doesn’t make this team worse next year after the Fuentes-rental period is over?
Not sure about the bullpen
The biggest issues with bullpen usage aren’t age-related, but skill related. Flores should not be expected to pitch a full inning. i still trust franklin and springer more than Lil’Mac or Parisi, though springer shouldn’t be used 2 days out of 3 anymore. perez is just plain filthy, though, and can and will be used in higher leverage situations I’m sure.
OT: wonder how much of the cubs success at home is the ridiculously early start times they seem to have about half the time? I didn’t check the schedule, but it seems like I am constantly checking fangraphs on my lunch break and seeing one game in progress- the cubs, at home- and it’s in the third or 4th inning.
OT2: the rockies really suck.
"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton
Actually, many around here in Chicago blame the early starts
for past cub lack of success. Day games are hotter and players have to wake up early in the morning as opposed to other teams who play the majority of their games at night.
Here’s the thing though. The cubs don’t really play a lot of day games anymore. I think they’re just ahead of the Cardinals now and that just changed. The Cards actually played more day games than the cubs through the first month or so.
But, they’ve had their day games reduced every year (at the request of the team and the ire of the neighborhood) and don’t really have that many more than most teams.
Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)
Even if they did play a lot more day games that seems like a
strange explanation for their lack of success. The other team has to get up just as early for those games, and presumably the Cubs would be more accustomed to the early starts and the heat than their opponents.
by BTown Birds fan on May 31, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, the other team has to play at the same time
But if you factor in the amout of times the cubs have to do it (or HAD to do it in past seasons), it takes a toll on the team as a whole. Playing day games is more taxing than playing night games (sun and hotter temperatures).
Of course, this isn’t much of an issue since they’ve reduced their day games and espn keeps switching their sunday games to Sunday Night Baseball.
Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)
The away records are a sign of hope
The cubs are 10-13 while the cardinals are 13-12. First off, neither of these totals are very high so you can’t really seriously project anything. Both teams have played relatively few road games and once more start happening this could be where we show our edge. The cubs aren’t anything special away from home, which is what killed the Brew Crew last year.
Also, maybe Dempster will break down eventually. I just have a hard time believing he’s a sub 4 ERA starting pitcher.
+2
Both of those are good points. Since all the other ballparks are not very similar to Wrigley, and it is obvious they are playing above their abilities at home (which still means they are a good team), they should probably be about a .500 team on the road.
Don’t expect Dempster to be near this good all season long.
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2008 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Kruky love
Methinks you have to give Kruk some credit on that comment. Our Cardinals seem to be playing well over their heads while Chicago easily projects to 90-95 wins… Basically while our Birdos can keep pace and could win the division, the Cubs seem to be the only team able to “run away” with the division. Kruky called it as he saw it and you have to give the man credit—even if it isn’t a complement for the el birdos.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!
A big factor factor for the Cubs success is
that they paid big money for impact players and their investments are paying off this season. All of their big money players are healthy and are helping them.
The crazy thing is the Cards have so much sunk costs and big salaries that are not paying off for the team right now it is amazing they are where they are right now.
Carpenter : $10,500,000
Izzy: $8,000,000
Mulder: $7,000,000
Encarnacion: $6,500,000
The Cubs are getting the most for their money right now…could you imagine how good we could be if Mulder & Carpenter were healthy and we were able to trade Izzy & Juan (before he got hurt) last year to clear some money off the books to spend for this season.
Ugh, Don't go bringing that up.....
I will never be mad about paying Juan not to play. He sure can’t help that.
Mr. Mulder was a big gamble that didn’t pay off.
We may still get something out of Carpenter and Izzy this season.
We are spending a lot on players that can’t play though….
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Not the point I was trying to make.
Juan’s sunk cost is horrible luck and not his or the team’s fault. Not blaming Juan for anything.
Carpenter was also bad luck… but it was a mistake for Walt to give him a big extention when he did. He had a whole year to work something out but jumped the gun…and yes he might still help this season.
Izzy was earning his contract earlier this season…now not so much. That’s the bad thing about back loaded contracts for veterans.
Mulder…would rather not get into this.
The point was that the Cubs are getting the most bang for their buck right now. You think they would be in first place or contending if they had so much money wrapped in players that are not contributing be it bad luck with injuries or bad gambles like we have?
The Cubs have also avoided massive injury
over the last two seasons. If they were to lose Ramirez/Zambrano for most of the season (ala 2007 Cardinals) they would be in 3rd place.
They have been blessed with health (sans Soriano’s 15 day league injuries) and it has helped them stay in first place.
by Hardcore Legend on May 31, 2008 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Hardcore hits it on the head
The lack of injuries the past two seasons is the number 1 factor in their success. They have a great team, but if those guys aren’t playing, then it changes everything.
and I have to end this post now since I have to change the channel because the cubs are playing that damn song.
Formerly Big Red (victim of the SBNation upgrade)
Yeah the injury bug
is probably the only way the Cubs are going to slow down this season. And it would have to be to key guys like Zambrano and Lee. They have showed they can still win without Soriano and Ramirez for strectches last year. But loosing Big Z and or Lee would be a big blow in my opinion.
The very forces
that carried the Cubs to victory, will defeat them. If we play them tough, something good will come of it. June will tell.
I don’t think Izzy will be back…......unless he can contribute. Its all about his sense of honor. I’m starting to appreciate Tony’s team concept, a little bit.
If Duncan does surface out of AAA, it will be the end to the Barton experiment…not the Mather exploration. Marketing…..... Its unlikely that the GM will be turning down any offers concerning Duncan.
The Bull-Pen problems will correct them selfs this month, for good or bad…
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on May 31, 2008 3:14 PM EDT reply actions
Question
Is your day job writing those pithy prognostications the rest of us find inside fortune cookies?
The verve with which you make your out-of-the-blue predictions amuses me.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Amusement
is sometimes a sign of the learning process, overcoming the limitations of ego…... Confucius
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on May 31, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Confucius say
Baby in back seat of car do not cause accident. But accident in back seat of car do cause baby.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
Ok guys I hate to ask this here...
But I have a fantasy baseball question.
the only reason I do ask here is because it involves Ludwick.
Im thinking about trading him for Marcum (he has been the pitching version of Ludwick this year) http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7661
right now I have these spots to play, OF, OF, OF Util
and I have these players: Beltran, Ichiro, Dunn, Pence, Hart, Ludwick, Thome
so I have a bit of a log jam.
But its hard to trade away Luddy. what do you guys think?
If you are in St. Louis check out my band, Griffin and the Gargoyles
(formerly Gargoyle Reign, Gargoyle Lounge)
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
:-D
the risk is
just like you said, Marcum is Luddy, only a pitcher. I actually have both on my team. Which is good right now, but one of the two probably won’t sustain it all year, heck both might not. Marcum isn’t on a very good offensive team, so that hurts the chances of getting wins. i would stick with Luddy or try to get a pitcher for him who has a little better track record.
by hoofhearted-pujols on May 31, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Not a Luddy believer...
At this point, he is out-performing his 90th percentile PECOTA forecast, and if he keeps this up, he’ll be worth nearly 5 wins above replacement.
If Marcum out-performs his PECOTA (which he is currently doing), he’ll be worth around 5.5 wins above replacement.
Taken together w/ the log-jam you have at OF/Util (and depending on your other pitchers which you did not list), I would personally take the deal most likely.
Hope there was something useful in there.
As far as him being "hard to trade" for you...
To me, you can’t show any loyalty to any player or team for fantasy purposes. You have to be willing to make a deal or cut ties without hesitation to win.
yeah, I know
we are basically “owning”/gambling on sets of random numbers…
that said if Marcum tanks, Id have to cringe a lil tiny piece every time I say Luddy hit a HR (well, not really. But you know what i mean)
If you are in St. Louis check out my band, Griffin and the Gargoyles
(formerly Gargoyle Reign, Gargoyle Lounge)
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
:-D
A little life left in Colorado
2-out solo HR against Marmol; now 5-4….
by BTown Birds fan on May 31, 2008 3:49 PM EDT reply actions
Well the Cubs are going on the road this week
which you would think would cool them off but they are playing the Padres and Dodgers both teams that struggle to score so it may not be such a good thing.
The bullpen.
One of the problems with rooting for a team that’s performing way better than anybody predicted is that it’s hard to have a contrary opinion of how things are being run. I’ve always known that TLR is, in the end, a very good manager but his style and stubbornnes have always annoyed me. But I tell you he and the front office prepared this team to play and they have been all I could ask for since the middle of spring training. Sooo…. I’m not going to be presumptuous about how the relievers should be used. They are doing just fine right now being shifted between roles. If anything I would do even more of the same. If anyone, say Ryan Franklin, is annointed or even understood to be the de facto closer it sets up a psychological domino reaction if that person fails. If Perez or Mclellan really do have the ability to close that will naturally come out with the current pattern of use. Let’s not monkey with what’s working.
I agree. Getting rid of Izzy seems to have been the only crucial move.
by hannah_in_va on May 31, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Adding Parisi
gave LaRussa a reliever he would actually use, as opposed to Reyes.
by Hardcore Legend on May 31, 2008 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
are you really surprised at the lack of respect?
for the entire 30 years i’ve been alive, the Cards are always disrespected by the national media & the flubs are always talked like they are the second coming of Christ. it’s always been like this, and it always will be. for what ever reason, the entire country embraces those north side losers. i don’t get it. i just don’t understand why you would pull for a loosing team year after year after year after year after year after year after, you get the point.
the only exception was the second half of 2004. the Cards were on to big of a roll for the media & general public to ignore.
any way, i agree with most this can’t last. remember how just two weeks ago the DBacks were being talked about running away from the rest of the NL? and looked what happened to them?
never forget this. the baseball season is a marathon, not a sprint.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Media matters . . .
St. Louis seems to be a media leper colony. Cards not helped by the decision to jettison KMOX. When St. Louis is mentioned nationally, there is the obligatory reference to the bowling museum and the departure of the Hawks with the attendant racial implications.
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