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To contend or to contend for longer?

Bender_tiny by azruavatar on Comment 335 comments

I'm writing this a little ahead of time because I'm in the process of moving this weekend so I won't have the luxury of waiting until after the game on Thursday night.  If something tremendous -- positive or negative -- happened in last night's game, feel free to talk about it; it's not a lack of interest on my part, it's the impingement of the real world on my hobbies.

At the beginning of the season, not many people truly believed the Cardinals would be contenders in the NL Central.  PECOTA had the Cardinals coming in a distant 4th in the division with a negative run differential.  They're currently a game back of Chicago with the 5th best run differential in the NL.  I'm curious what kind of off-the-record conversations the front office had for expectations -- whether they really truly believed (or their metrics/analysis told them) that they were going to contend.  Apparently the team thought that they were close enough to contending that they didn't need a full blown rebuilding process and everyone toed the line accordingly during the offseason and Spring Training.  I would have defended them if they had gone into a rebuilding process; instead, they really are contending and regardless of whether or not they truly expected to before the season began, now would be a good time to decided if contention is enough or if they're really committed to winning the Central.

I'd be disingenuous if I claimed that I've been mulling over this idea that I'm about to present for a while.  I haven't.  A commenter (mikedallas45) asked a question in Nate Silver's chat over at BP the other day about Brian Roberts.  Nate responded that the upgrade could be sizable given the players that the Cardinals are currently using at second base.  I've made no secret of my distaste for the Cardinals primary second baseman (Aaron Miles, Adam Kennedy) in terms of what they provide on the field for the team.  Subjective opinions aside, if the Cardinals are going to upgrade the team, 2nd base is the logical place to do it and Brian Roberts would seem to be a prime target.  I can't recall a time since Larry Walker that the Cardinals made a move in season that I would perceive to have as much impact as a potential Brian Roberts trade -- but lets run the numbers to find out.

In a weekend when I wasn't moving, I'd be breaking out my spreadsheets to run wOBAs and find the averages for the league and calculating runs above average per plate appearance.  Since I don't live in that world though, I'm going to use VORP, which is handy in that the math is done for me, and while I prefer wOBA, the differences shouldn't prevent us from getting an estimate of about +/- .5 wins.  Let's assume that the acquisition of a second baseman would suddenly bring the manager and front office to their collective senses and we'd no longer need 4 middle infielders on the roster -- in fact, let's say they do away with Aaron Miles and Adam Kennedy.  I know I'm wishcasting here but what the hell.

Aaron Miles has been serviceable as a hitter this season.  I still don't like his skillset -- and once that BABIP regresses about 30 points, he's going to be about replacement level.  That said, he's contributed 2.7 runs per VORP over 113 ABs.  Extrapolate over the season and he's probably worth about 1 win with the bat assuming he maintains that.  That would easily be the best VORP he's posted but benefit of the doubt and all.  Adam Kennedy on the other hand has been his exact inverse.  He's been worth -2.5 runs over 140 ABs.  Together, they're a wash.

Defensively, Aaron Miles is about a -10 fielder (over a full season) according to the defensive metrics -- I'm looking at UZR, RZR and SFR to get an estimate.  Kennedy was beloved by the defensive metrics prior to 2006 with his defense being worth around a win all by itself. 2006 saw him tank across the board and 2007 was only marginally better.  RZR likes him so far this season but I'm more inclined to go with the previous two years worth of data.  He just had knee surgery and I just don't see his defense as a strong selling point anymore.  We'll split the difference and call him a neutral fielder.  What I'm getting at in these last two paragraphs is that Miles and Kennedy at second represent the essence of replacement level.  You should be able to go out and find some player in the minors and approximate their value on the field.  In fact, the Cardinals have such a player named Brendan Ryan but a 3-year contract and some unknown leverage have kept Kennedy and Miles on the team.

To preface the discussion of Brian Roberts, I want to say that I'm leery of 2nd baseman once they hit 30 ; it's a steep decline, on balance, after that age.  PECOTA, prior to the season, expected him to maintain his value reasonably well through age 34.  He's hitting a touch under his preseason prediction at the moment.  PECOTA pegged him at .285/.366/.440 prior to the season and he's hitting .271/.357/.427 thus far.  In 221 ABs, he's produced 12.5 runs.  He's about  30 run above replacement level offensively.  The defensive metrics are a bit mixed -- some like him as a bit above average others as a neutral fielder. 

If you take a look at the Cardinals VORP data thus far this season, Pujols and Ludwick are carrying the offense with Ankiel making a solid contribution.  Outside of those three players, there's no other standout offensive player.  The rest of the team is basically playing slightly above average offensively with no one on the roster being a tremendous dead weight.  Brian Roberts would go a long way to solving that problem.  He'd become the Cardinals 3rd or 4th best hitter and an ideal leadoff man given his OBP and speed on the base paths.  (I'm not totally discounting the value of his running skills but they pale in comparison to his offense.  He might be worth 2-3 runs on the base paths.  I'd rather just be conservative and assume he's neutral.)

It's hard to navigate the tumultuous waters of dealing with the Orioles and Peter Angelos but needless to say, a nice package of prospects would be needed.  They wouldn't be interested in Bryan Anderson but a stab in the dark would be something resembling Jaime Garcia/Anthony Reyes, Chris Duncan/Joe Mather and Jason Motte/Chris Perez.  It's a lesser package than what they got for Erik Bedard but I'd guess that the Orioles would target those players (after being told that Colby Rasmus was unavailable).  It's certainly debatable whether those prospects are worth more than Roberts over the next 5 years but Roberts almost certainly adds more marginal value to the team than losing those players/prospects would cost in 2008 alone.

Regardless of the fine details, Roberts would represent a significant upgrade on the order of 3-4 wins depending on how optimistic you're feeling.  Glancing at the standings, the teams relegated to the cellar currently don't have players that would be worth pursuing.  (If the Athletics fall out of the race, Mark Ellis is another name that would be interesting coming in around 2 wins above replacement. That could take time though where the Orioles are more like to be sellers now.)  Baltimore is the best target even if it's traditionally a difficult trading partner.  The point is that there's no time like the present to upgrade the team.  There's no great -- heck, there's not even a good -- internal solution to the middle infield and the Cardinals have the capacity to really improve the team to keep pace with the Cubs. In the end, it's less a question of if the Cardinals will contend and more one of for how long.

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UGGLA or bust.

Roberts is not worthy

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on May 30, 2008 8:10 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on May 30, 2008 8:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like Brian Roberts......

Didn’t the Cardinals try to pry Miguel Tejada away from Baltimore? I just wonder if we couldn’t put together a package for Tejada, how would we put one together for Roberts? The Cubs also have wanted him—if he is available, won’t they be back in on him too?

I just think he’s one of these guys who is “available” wink, wink, nod, just to keep the other teams calling. He will be moved only for an extreme fleece trade-which makes me think they are not dealing him at all. Better to try to get Mark Ellis. At least Mr. Beane will make a trade if you give him what he wants….....

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 30, 2008 8:18 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

what beane wants

like kiko calero, daric barton, and dan haren.

sigh.

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on May 30, 2008 8:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

can you imgane how good the team would be now

with Tejada? That wouldn’t even be fair.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on May 30, 2008 8:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But Tejada

is in potentially as much trouble as Bonds is with this federal steroids/perjury investigation. Add to the fact he’s three years older than originally thought, and the short term success Houston is getting with Tejada won’t be nearly as impressive two or three years from now when Miguel is actually 38, getting a big contract that is crippling the team’s ability to make any other moves, and he might not even be playing because he could be in jail or on trial, or under suspension.

Some of the best moves clubs make are the players they don’t sign, and I think in the long run this will prove to be true with Tejada.

"Is this Heaven?"
"No, it;s Iowa."
"I could've sworn it was Heaven."

by MilCardFan on May 30, 2008 5:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We just won a series in 2006

I’m not interested in sacrificing the future for the present at this point in time.

If we can do it by giving up Reyes/Duncan/Motte, I might consider it. but really only ‘cause I don’t know anything about Motte.

by sdrone on May 30, 2008 8:28 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was thinking the same..

no way I’m willing to part with Garcia and Perez….I feel these guys could both be significant contributors either this or next season. However, Reyes, Duncan/Mather, and Motte would be worth considering (I’d rather try Mather…though Duncan is struggling he’s still more proven, and shoud be able to increase his trade value).

by cardzfanbub on May 30, 2008 8:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Motte

Think of Perez type heat, but straight fastball and no true secondary pitch. He is a former catcher turned pitcher that can throw real hard, but right now he is still a “thrower” not a pitcher, probably will become a great setup man, secondary closer but right now he hasn’t matured enough for it.

by StLHugo on May 30, 2008 8:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Reyes/Duncan/Motte

If they would take that for Roberts, shouldn’t we jump at the chance?

Let me add that I have been a staunch advocate for both Reyes and Duncan on this site for quite a while, but Duncan is not that young, Reyes appears to be destined to live out his big league career in a jersey without the birds-on-bat gracing its front (so why not an AL jersey), and Motte, as StLHugo has done well in describing, is a pretty rough hurler.

by bgh on May 30, 2008 10:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

this is one of baseballs top franchises of all times, not the royals

The “sacrifice the future” ad nausea is just silly. The cards have the luxury of dumping a prospect if it will immediately give them a real shot at the WS. The cards are perennial contenders, not a 5 year plan team like Florida. Just because they won the WS in 06 doesn’t mean you’re automatically on a 5 year plan until 2011. Just ask the cubs and their 06 and 08 wins…the ones from the 1900s.

With that said, not a fucking chance I’d ship perez unless it’s for uggla :D

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on May 30, 2008 9:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Disagree

More important than our history is our payroll. Do we have the money to go after high-priced free agents? Even though the landscape of the game is shifting away from free agency, it’s still the teams with the money that are gonna be contenders year in and year out (for the most part). So while we aren’t the Royals, we also aren’t the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Cubs, Angels, etc. Don’t forget the 90s or the 70s, either. We were traditional then and went through some bad baseball.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 30, 2008 12:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: high-priced free agents

I am loathe to agree with anything Colin Cowherd says(that’s a subject for another day and website), but he said something a few days ago that I’ve been yelling from the mountaintops for a couple of years now: many of the so-called high-priced FA just don’t want to play in St. Louis. I have no idea why this is the case. Maybe it’s the team’s policy of slotting salaries for certain positions and past refusal to go beyond a certain number of years on contracts, or it’s La Russa, or the weather, or…
If you don’t believe me, name the last big-name FA this team signed; and I’m not talking about guys like Edmonds, Carpenter or Rolen, who were already with the team.

If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.

by cardsrul on May 30, 2008 4:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do we really pursue them that strongly?

We have gotten plenty of high-caliber players in, just not through free agency. The team (any team) usually gets ripped off through free-agency anyway. I don’t think this is something you should be too concerned about. I’m at work, so I can’t do the research, but let’s look at the record of teams that go out and make the big-name free agent signings. I don’t even think it’s a strategy that works well. You end up taking too much of your resources for one player.

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 30, 2008 5:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let's also remember

what a huge pain Peter Angelos is to deal with. The O’s have had trade discussions about Roberts before, and he has killed the deal each time. I agree he would be a perfect fit here, but if it gets much beyond Reyes/Duncan and a pitching prospect (other than Garcia or Perez), I’m not sure it’s worth it.

Perhaps a deal for a lesser name like Josh Barfield of the Indians? That would be less costly in terms of talent. Or maybe Jed Lowrie from the Bosox?

Nice catch Hayes, don't ever fu**in do it again - Lou Brown

by TurdFerguson on May 30, 2008 9:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So AZ, you see no internal replacement for

2B? Ryan? Hoff? I liked the Wed. DP combo of BRyan/Iz2. I’d also be willing to give Hoff a shot. If one of the OF goes to fall instructional ball to learn to play 2B, I’d be in favor too. I just don’t see trading prospects for Roberts.

by gocards62 on May 30, 2008 8:43 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

short term replacement? no, i don't.

Hoffpauir hasn’t shown the power he had in springfield last year and it’s hurting him. pitchers are beating him on the outside part of the plate and then groving fastballs and he can’t turn on them. In retrospect, I may have been too bullish on the power spike in Springfield as a sustainable skill. Brendan Ryan is probably a +1 player with the bat and glove but if he’s your primary utility guy and Brian Roberts is starting at second I think that’s pretty good arrangement.

This converting outfielders to 2nd baseman thing is a total pipe dream that got started somewhere on the internet. It’s not going to happen. Short of Kelly Johnson and Bill Hall, I can’t think of anyone who made the conversion in recent years. The Cardinals haven’t shown the propensity to try this out at any point in the minor leagues—why the heck would they try it with MLB players.

by azruavatar on May 30, 2008 9:34 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And Hall

started his MLB career as a SS, before being moved to the outfield…

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on May 30, 2008 11:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

as a fan of both teams

i don’t think this trade will benefit either team, really. first off, trading roberts would open a gaping hole at 2B for the o’s – behind b-rob, the rest of their middle infield (freddie bynum, luis hernandez, brandon fahey) is even worse than ours, and none of those guys are young enough to be considered a prospect anymore. additionally, duncan adds very little to the o’s. with the OF set in 2009 (markakis, jones, scott) and huff signed through 2009, duncan would have to fight hard for playing time. while i do think he’s a better player than huff, i have a hard time seeing him immediately slotting ahead of someone with a better career. reyes as a reclamation project, fine. motte, garcia, and perez i know very little about, but if the way they’re talked about on this site is any indication they’re probably worth too much to be traded. so perhaps if we threw a lot of these young pitchers at them we could get roberts, but i don’t see that being worth it in the long run.

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on May 30, 2008 8:46 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Duncan doesn't have to play OF

He could take 1B or DH for the O’s

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 30, 2008 12:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes, i forgot about 1B

and millar. but DH is taken up by huff (unless he moves to 1B), who is signed thru ‘09.

however, the orioles are apparently going to make a big push to sign teixera this winter because he’s a local boy from annapolis (or somewhere near there). i think they’d be better off acquiring duncan in a trade, but that’s not the way that organization works, which is why they’re one of the worst in baseball.

for the record, i also think we’d need to give up a MI prospect as well to fill their hole in that area.

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on May 30, 2008 1:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let's keep in mind that the O's

idea of a first baseman is 36-y-o Kevin Millar. No way Dunc couldn’t outhit him.

I’m an O’s fan as well, and I can’t see them giving up Roberts for anything less than a haul, and even then it’ll be like pulling teeth. I’ve been on the Roberts bandwagon for a long time, but I can’t see getting him for a reasonable price.

by MdRedbirdFreak on May 30, 2008 1:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Another issue: how long to we stay w/Santa at 3B?

“If you take a look at the Cardinals VORP data thus far this season, Pujols and Ludwick are carrying the offense with Ankiel making a solid contribution. Outside of those three players, there’s no other standout offensive player. “

Totally agree. No offensive production from 3B is killing us.

by gocards62 on May 30, 2008 8:46 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What's the other option?

Because from where I sti, there really is none.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 30, 2008 8:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

good thing you're not a GM then (jk)

I’m only half kidding ;) But my point is that is the job of a good GM, finding someone and making it happen. Did you ever think Jocketty was going to pull superstars like Walker or McGwire out of his ass? I’d like to think Mo doesn’t get his info from mlbtraderumors.com.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on May 30, 2008 9:17 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You do know

that Glaus is under contract for next year as well, as he was required to pick up next year’s player option as a condition of the trade. We’re going to have to sink or swim w/ Glaus at 3rd, unless you’d like to move him to 1st.

by chuckb on May 30, 2008 10:02 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Er...

Walker and McGwire were long rumored to be dealt, as their contracts were about to be up. That was what Walt was a master of, trading for players who were about to be free agents, then giving them long deals (most of the time).

Start Ludwick

by DiscoJer on May 30, 2008 3:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good 'ol Rolen

What do you know? Looks like he’s putting it together in Toronto:

avg. .293
obp .376
slg .466
2 hr
15 xbh in 32 games.

Glaus, by comparison, is:

avg. .261
obp .370
slg .386
2 hr
18 xbh in 54 games

Rolen’s got him beat in every category. Mind you, I’m not saying I regret trading him. It’s just nice to see him performing.

I just wish Glaus would perform up to Rolen’s level. Or shucks, even up to his careers levels.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on May 30, 2008 11:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, I'll say it. I regret trading him.

I don’t care what Mr. LaRussa says about him, I like Scotty, and I always will like Scotty. The big lug also has 3 stolen bases. For a dude that isn’t fast, he sure knows how to run the bases. I hope he’s put his injuries behind him…....

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 30, 2008 11:43 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ha! What are you implying? You think it's not possible that a few of us out here actually liked Mr. Rolen and were sorry to see him go?

Ridgesee is an old guy; we old guys and gals have to stick together. You kids with the computers rule the world…...we take what we can take…...

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 30, 2008 3:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll say it, too

I was pissed when Tony was resigned because I knew it would cost us our all-star 3rd baseman.

If the choice was Tony or Scotty, I’d have chosen Scotty and a manager that doesn’t air clubhouse dirty laundry via the press on a regular basis.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on May 30, 2008 4:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

IT was wose that than that

It was
Tony, miles, skip, Pinero, Looper (starter), Springer

vs
Rolen, Ryan, Ludwick, Reyes, Worell, ...

A lot of players get the crap treatment from TLR. We are also forced to sign less talented players like Pinero and Miles because of his need for vetrans.

by DriverZn on May 30, 2008 4:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Too early to tell......

With Rolen’s bad shoulder he may get fatigured as 32 games is not that many…... Once the shoulder starts to get a bit sore he will once again have trouble catching up to high average fastballs…

I have seen him play this year but not enough to notice how well he is handling stuff above his belt.

I have actually been surprised by Glaus minus his lack of power. I like the way Glaus plays.

I liked Scott a lot when he was here but I know it was time to move on.

by ICbirdfan on May 30, 2008 12:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

zing

I guess that was one of the main reasons we traded him, yeah?

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 30, 2008 1:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, actually, it wasn't

We traded him because Tony burned the bridge and treated him like shit. With Tony’s repeated, insulting public bashings (the public doghouse seems to be a running theme for him these past few years, n’est-ce pas?), he poisoned the well and made it pretty much impossible for Scott to remain here. Once DeWitt stepped in and resigned Tony before we even had a GM picked, anyone with a brain new Scott had to be dealt.

And the broken finger from ST was a freak accident. It had nothing to do with his (apparently fully repaired) shoulder. It’s not like Scott pulled a JD Drew and sprained an eyelash or something.

It’s still too early in the season to tell how “bad” the exchange was, but Scott looks fully recovered and fully productive, whereas Glaus looks like a weaker, less-useful-across-the-board version of Rolen. But maybe Glaus can actually start producing at some point this season and help mitigate that deficit.

Personally, I’d rather have a new manager and our previous 3rd baseman.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on May 30, 2008 4:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tony has cost us a lot of players

Rolen
Haren (tony / DeWitt pushed this one)
Thompson (arguably the abusive usage last year ruined the guy)

Then there is the endless parade of gritty but untalented players taking time away from more derserving ones.
Miles, Skippy, So

by DriverZn on May 30, 2008 4:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't agree

Rolen caused the problem….

Remember the 2006 play-offs when he couldn’t hit shit and TLR used Spezio who was hitting well and Rolen cried about it

by ICbirdfan on May 30, 2008 5:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

rolen feuded with bowa in philly and i’ve read some pretty damning bad-attitude quotes from him during that era. i wasn’t there to personally witness the important conversations (or lack thereof) he had with either bowa or larussa, but i think there’s enough of an audit trail that rolen shouldn’t be eliminated as a suspect.

by astrostl on May 30, 2008 5:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree.

And I say that as someone who loved Scott and was sorry he left. But I don’t think he was an innocent victim in the situation.

by cardsgirl95 on May 30, 2008 5:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was definitely a two-way street

I never said Rolen wasn’t at least partially culpable. Personally, I think Tony’s wholly unprofessional treatment of Rolen merited some disagreement, but that wasn’t the point.

My point was that as soon as LaRussa was re-signed by DeWitt, the Rolen trade was inevitable. It had almost nothing to do with the shoulder, and had almost everything to do with Tony’s communication issues. Which is very unfortunate, since it looks like Rolen has returned to form (although he may yet fade like he did in 2006, my sense is that he’s recovered).

I’m of the opinion that sweeping roster decisions should not be dictated by your field manager’s signing, but that’s what you get with Tony.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on May 30, 2008 5:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

glaus

yeah he’s been a slight disappointment, but when you take into account the (apparent) clubhouse harmony, the surprisingly not crappy defense, the .370 OBP, and the “clutch” stats it doesn’t look quite so bad. still hoping some of troy’s balls make it over the wall as the weather heats up…

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on May 30, 2008 8:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Anyone else think our Glaus

is the juice-less version? It’s very suspicious that a guy who once hit 47 has only 2 on May 30. Right now he should bat #2, and leave the 3,4, and 5 spots to a combo of Albert, Lud, and Ank. He could definitely stand to see better pitches in front of AP.

by vinniefromjersey on May 30, 2008 9:06 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

one of a loooong list

the majors are full of players whose stunning power a few years ago melted away when the threat of real steroid testing showed up. and i wonder how many terrific seasons in contract walk years came from PED.

batting glaus second would seem to be a good way to use his OBP, and LaRussa did say he likes some “damage” from the second spot in the order.

by madridbend on May 30, 2008 10:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, I think its the version that doesn't play in Toronto....

Toronto is a RH hitters park. Busch is not.

Start Ludwick

by DiscoJer on May 30, 2008 3:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How freaking odd.....

Rolen also has 2 home runs and an OBP in the .370’s.

by sdrone on May 30, 2008 9:17 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but he missed a month

and is slugging 100 points higher than troy.

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on May 30, 2008 10:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and is slugging 100 points higher than troy.

glaus isolated power: .386 (SLG) – .261 (BA) = .125
rolen isolated power: .466 (SLG) – .293 (BA) = .173

“slugging” is usually synonymous with “power”, but it still measures singles. if two players had equal on-base percentages and hit the ball equally hard, the one with the higher batting average would also have a higher slugging percentage.

in this case rolen is hitting the ball harder, but the ISO difference is less stark than SLG.

by astrostl on May 30, 2008 12:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

like I said too early to tell..........

Rolen’s shoulder has only been forced to play 32 games so far which is 1/5 of the season. I don’t know how his shoulder will hold up to a full season, I could see it getting fatigued and all of a sudden he can’t catch up to 89 MPH fastball’s above his belt.

I think Rolen had to be dealt for various reasons and the top one was that you just could not count on his shoulder holding up.

I like him a lot and enjoyed his style of play while in STL. I still watch him when I can.

by ICbirdfan on May 30, 2008 12:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

I don’t have time to look up the numbers but I remember him coming out and pounding the ball early last season before his numbers fell off a cliff.

by birdo rojo on May 30, 2008 1:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

with you on ISO, astro

But the reason I’m still confident Glaus will perform better is that his HR/FB rate is about 3% and I can’t imagine that continuing. I just don’t think he suddenly turned into Mark Grace on us.

by random on May 30, 2008 1:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i hope you are right

but didn’t both his home runs just barely scrape over the wall? He is a couple of average breezes away from being homerless. He just seems to have warning track power at this point in his career.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 31, 2008 1:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

actually, given his juiceless state

and where they were with Rolen, anything other than a greek tragedy at 3B constitutes a success :D

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on May 30, 2008 9:25 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

careful

his name is troy, need i remind you. you might have just jinxed the whole team. i’ll bet his middle name is agamemnon or something. and i apologize for g®eeking up the place…

by mattybobo on May 30, 2008 11:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ah ha!

edward III, a history play (possibly) by shakespeare. way better than a greek tragedy. edward overcomes impossible odds and triumphs over the french.
the french are of course a reasonable equivalent to the cubs, since they’re easy to make fun of, they complain a lot, and they haven’t really won anything in the last century or so. look for santa to have a huge moment against the small bears sometime this year.

by mattybobo on May 30, 2008 2:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A pinch runner! My kingdom for a pinch runner!

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 30, 2008 3:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

um,

I could care less, but that would be Richard, not Edward . . . .

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on May 30, 2008 4:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

dammit, you're right

I saw the III and Shakespeare, and ran with it

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 30, 2008 4:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"ran" with it

You’re killing me. Which I guess is appropriate for either.

by random on May 30, 2008 4:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"Ran"...

That would be King Lear

by mattybobo on May 30, 2008 4:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can't see the ownership approving the spending

of a bunch of new contract money on any trade possibility at this point. Before any crybabies jump my ass and call it DeWitt bashing, hold up, that is not the point that I am making. I just think that ownership has drawn the line on any new major expenditures for the remainder of this season.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on May 30, 2008 8:47 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Which as of today...

you’d have to consider a lock. If we could find a deal like the Walker trade, I’d like that…get a solid contributor with the remainder of a pricey contract for spare parts. Unfortunately I don’t see anybody out there like that…maybe Furcal or even Roberts in late July or August, but right now it’d take WAY too much to get either.

by cardzfanbub on May 30, 2008 9:13 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Put this Furcal business out of your mind.

The Dodgers are going to try to keep him. They can throw boatloads of money at him too.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 30, 2008 10:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No arguement from me there...

I was just throwing out names that fit the criteria.

by cardzfanbub on May 30, 2008 10:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

zing

now that was funny

"Textbooks are Soviet propaganda" - Rev. Jerry Falwell

by elirock83 on May 30, 2008 10:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Clement is only a Cardinal

on payday

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 31, 2008 1:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't see money...

being an issue nearly as much as prospects. If we have to pay a guy $4 – $6 million or so to spring us to the playoffs, and then collect two draft picks when he leaves as a free-agent I can see Dewitt doing just that. Guys like Garcia and Perez have too much potential (IMO) to ship away for a one year rental.

by cardzfanbub on May 30, 2008 9:16 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey, Walt would have done it.......

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 30, 2008 10:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like it

It’s no secret that a change of scenery would benefit both Reyes and the Cards. Of all our available OF, Duncan probably is the most versatile – and I say this meaning he plays multiple positions that aren’t all OF spots (LF, 1B, DH – as opposed to Skip or Ludwick who play all 3 OF and that’s primarily it). And they’ve both got ML experience. I’d prefer to lose Motte rather than Perez or Garcia. If they require a 4th player, or a 2B instead of one of the other pieces, I wouldn’t be completely against throwing in Hoff (or Miles or Kennedy, although I’m sure the O’s wouldn’t want any of that).

Acquiring Roberts would give the Cards incredible options – He can bat leadoff, he’s a switch hitter (TLR would love that), he’d help the offense and defense, we could DFA or work a trade for Kennedy and/or Miles, and Ryan could split with Iz2 while spelling Roberts every once in a while.

I would love to see this trade made – although I can’t see it happening before July. Maybe around the All Star Break.

by A1R3Z on May 30, 2008 9:31 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow, my idea started a front page post

Yay me. Another benefit for me of getting Roberts is that Tony no longer feels compelled to play Schumaker in a corner outfield spot just so we can have a “leadoff guy”. We can then trade Skip for whatever and go with a Duncan/Mather platoon instead, you likely get two lineup spot upgrades for the price of one.

by mikedallas45 on May 30, 2008 9:47 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i like the way you think, my friend...

"Back in the day when I played, a pitcher had 3 pitches: a fastball, a curveball, a slider, a changeup and a good sinker pitch." - Mike Shannon

by nomar34 on May 30, 2008 1:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You know, that's interesting

Schumaker’s and Duncan’s on base percentages are within .02 of each other.

Duncan/Mather (though I have no idea what Mather would do here)
Ankiel
Pujols
Ludwick
Glaus
Whomever…..

Interesting. I mean, if leadoff is about OBP, though I admit I like speed at the top, it’s worth thinking about.

by sdrone on May 30, 2008 2:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

sorry, my point is

not to acquire Roberts, but that maybe Skip is worth something on the market . I dunno, I’m just yapping.

by sdrone on May 30, 2008 2:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the way glaus is hitting

he looks more like a “leadoff guy” than about anyone else on the team ;)

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on May 30, 2008 2:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes he does

I’d take Glaus at leadoff if it meant that Skippy didn’t automatically get into the lineup because he is the ‘leadoff’ hitter.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on May 30, 2008 2:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sure, ok...

Swap Glaus and Dunc/Mather. I’m willing to try it.

by sdrone on May 30, 2008 2:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Like you said over 30... No

I would be extremely pissed off if we had to give that all up just for Brian Roberts. Why don’t we just make a minor league trade. Something that doesn’t if help us now but for 09. Like you know Brent Lillibridge out of Atlanta. They need pitching now that can be cost controlled for a few years, Aka Reyes. Now Lillibridge is not have the best year in AAA but still a good prospect. It would be a good flip of prospects that would help both organizations.

by FlimtotheFlam on May 30, 2008 9:51 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lillibridge

I seem to remember reading somewhere his stock is falling in Atlanta. They’re starting to view him more of a backup MIF instead of a stronghold at the SS position like they originally thought.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 30, 2008 12:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

I am in the Lillibridge, A. Cabrera, Barfield, camp. Hell, where is Jose Valentin these days? We could go with him or Bill Hall could probably be had for nothing in particular. Hall for Reyes maybe?

by Lawless on May 30, 2008 5:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+ 1/2

I would take Barfield in a heartbeat.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 30, 2008 5:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The 3 - 4 wins

is over an entire season, right? So that means, by the time the trade is made, it would be at least midseason and Roberts would be worth 1.5 – 2 wins over the course of the final 81 games. That’s not insigificant, but neither is it worth Jaime Garcia or Chris Perez either. The longer he stays in Baltimore, the more his value to the receiving team drops.

It would be a big upgrade at 2nd—the spot on the roster where we’re in most need of an upgrade, but not enough to justify 2 of our top 4 prospects.

by chuckb on May 30, 2008 10:05 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he's also signed through 2009

so it would be an upgrade for next season, too

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 30, 2008 3:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on May 30, 2008 9:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would hold off on saying we are contending.

And going on a buying rampage.

Pineiro is on the DL(maybe for only one start.), Looper’s ERA has creep to above 5, Lohse still seems to be doing what he is paid to do. But right now our starting pitching can go either way. And we might need to call up some help from Memphis. Good thing there is help in Memphis. But right now we are still walking that line of contending or rebuilding. I would hate to see us thin the ranks in Memphis for a second baseman and then have Piniero not make it back and Looper continue to struggle. You know?

by Evilfrog on May 30, 2008 10:25 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly!!!

My point yesterday…this so called “pitching surplus” that some people were saying the Cardinals had a month ago is looking less so…I think they are in contending status, but I hesitate to do anything to mess with what little safety net we have in terms of starting pitching,( that being some of the young guys at Memphis), since THAT is primarily the reason this team is where it is.

by tbell61 on May 30, 2008 10:34 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't forget......

The Cardinals have been really, really, bad at picking the right second baseman for about the last 10 years or so…...If they get Roberts, there is a good chance he could turn out to be the wrong one again…...

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 30, 2008 10:34 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah...

that would be just our luck, right?

by tbell61 on May 30, 2008 10:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Except for Grudz

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 30, 2008 10:43 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, and they let him walk.....um, I don't even remember who replaced him....

I’m pretty sure he was one of the wrong ones…

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 30, 2008 11:03 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Miles

Miles replaced him for the most part.

by StLHugo on May 30, 2008 11:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And Womack and Vina and Polanco and (kind of) Belliard

the revolving door worked really well until we let Grudz go (Although I kind of like the Luna/Miles combo in 06 until Belliard came into the proverbial fold).

Signing Kennedy to a 3 (!!) year deal really killed that momentum, though.

Well who the hell can see forever?

by Alxfritz on May 30, 2008 11:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Belliard would have been an improvement

over Kennedy last year (no duh).

Honestly, the Cardinals probably make the playoffs last year if they retain Belliard and Carpenter’s arm doesn’t fall off.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on May 30, 2008 11:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Almost as bad as the Spinal Tap drummer, no?

"Is this Heaven?"
"No, it;s Iowa."
"I could've sworn it was Heaven."

by MilCardFan on May 30, 2008 5:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

grudz’s career: .332 OBP, .105 ISO
2008 NL averages: .333 OBP, .150 ISO

i think grudz gets WAY too much credit around here.

by astrostl on May 30, 2008 12:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

OPS+ in his 2+ seasons in KC 90, 100, 95 (2008 so far).

by indakind on May 30, 2008 12:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Occupational hazard for 2Bs.

The position is a revolving door for many teams, precisely because dominant second basemen are in very short supply. Look at all the will-play-second-for-food types that moved this winter.

by StanTheManFan on May 30, 2008 11:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think they tend to take a bigger beating around the bag than is acknowledged too......

Most just don’t last long…...by the way, isn’t Tony Graffinino about through with his knee injury and ready to sign somewhere? Just tossing names out there, that’s all…...

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 30, 2008 11:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rumors abound

So rumors are starting to circulate about Mulder retiring, Mather being called up, etc.

A post at the Birdhouse (scout.com) just made me wonder if they all might be related.

Cards work out a trade with the Indians for Barton and a SP.
Barton is optioned to Memphis and Mather called up.
Jimenez is shipped back out with the new SP taking the start on Sat if he is ready.

Rumors are just that, but this could be an interesting couple of weeks if any of them have truth behind them.

by StLHugo on May 30, 2008 10:44 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ok

now you’ve just taken one rumor and lit a much bigger fire with it.

Mulder won’t retire unless there is something structurally wrong with his shoulder (requiring surgery). He said he was open to trying a new approach to pitching before shutting it down.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on May 30, 2008 11:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

in other words

he isn’t going to retire until we quit paying him

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 31, 2008 1:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cards Contenders?

Cards against teams with winning records 10-5

Cubs against teams with winning records 8-7

Cards need to improve thier record against sub-par teams and the Pirates this weekend is a good team to start with. Cards haven’t beaten this team like they have in the past, so it will be a good series facing two left-handers tonight and Saturday. Hat is off to Duncan to for the key hit last night.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 30, 2008 11:13 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You know, it's been rough for Pittsburg.......

but they have usually put a really good effort into their games-even when they lost. I would not take them lightly. Not at all…...

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 30, 2008 11:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's because many of the Cubs best players are former Pirates......

they know the secrets, and want to get back at them. Heck, if you just hit it on the ground, there is a good chance no one but LaRoche and Wilson can catch it…....just drop some well placed ground balls and run like the wind….

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 30, 2008 11:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pirates/Cubs

They have played 12 games together already (Pirates won only 3). Cards 2-3 against Pirates.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 30, 2008 11:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Weird

Pirates/Cards games this year….. the winner wins by 3+ runs each game.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 30, 2008 11:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

too legit, too legit to quit

that’s an amazing statistic, and should make people realize that this team IS a legitimate contender

apologies for bringing the Hammer into this.

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 30, 2008 11:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you do what you wanna do, say what you wanna say

live how you wanna live, play how you wanna play

e'rebuilding mang

by nycbirdo on May 30, 2008 3:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Cubs have got to pray just to make it today

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 30, 2008 3:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

4 of our 5 series against teams with winning records have been at home

I believe the Cubs are actually 11-7 against teams with winning records, having 3 series at home and 3 on the road

Just sayin’...

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 30, 2008 12:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Never mind that, you were right re: the Cubs

I thought the Dodgers were above .500, my bad!

Then change that to 2 home series and 3 road series for the cubs against +.500 teams

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 30, 2008 12:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and we're 6-3 against the Astros

and they’re playing over their heads right now.

by chuckb on May 30, 2008 2:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Very true

3 series victories (all 2-1) including the home-opening series for the Astros

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 30, 2008 2:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

a win's a win

and I’d rather be beating the good teams (and consequently forcing them down in the standings) than beating the bad ones.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 30, 2008 3:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The MooCow...

...has been saying this all year long: Reyes & Duncan and SOMEONE for Roberts. Motte would be fair; Perez would not. They cud plug in Reyes into their starting rotation,a nd work the Dunkster into their line-up; Motte might need some moore cowditioning, but I’d expect him up by September at the latest. Meanwhile, we’d get Roberts for at least 3 years. This is a moore than fir trade; I just don’t know if that is enough for Angelos. Remember this though: this trade not only helps the Cards, it also hurts the Cubs. Roberts on the Cubs would be a dark day for the Cards; his power would return in tiny Wrigley. And his real speed would make the Baby Bears a serious threat. It’s them or us, potentially. I say take the leap now and see what they say.

:=8)

"We're against society, authority, and anything else that ends in y"
- Johnny Rotten

by The MooCow on May 30, 2008 11:50 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I udderly agree, Mr. MooCow........

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 30, 2008 11:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oo that's punny

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 30, 2008 12:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm still ruminating...

but think I’d prefer to put money into the farm system rather than spend on a not-so-young 2nd baseman. And I just know you’re into the farm, MooCow.

by random on May 30, 2008 1:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

see above

for my thoughts on duncan, but i really don’t think the o’s will trade roberts without at least one middle infielder in return. brandon fahey, luis hernandez, and freddy bynum are not major league quality players – but bynum is already the starting SS! – and it’s not like they’ve got anyone in the pipeline either. look at this list:

http://www.minorleagueball.com/story/2008/1/6/183015/4468

not a single middle infielder in the bunch. we’d probably have to give up ryan, hoff, or maybe even kozma. however, i have a feeling that roberts isn’t going anywhere unless some team completely overpays – and if that happens, i hope it is the cubs.

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on May 30, 2008 2:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Give them AK?

Throw in AK and cover most of his salary. Not fun from a check book standpoint , but we’ve got the money and it would allow them to at least field a team.

by birdo rojo on May 30, 2008 4:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just tjinking

With Perez pitching as well as he has, who will go down when Izzy comes back? I know Jeminez is up, but will go back when Pinero comes back. If Parisi has a good start tomorrow, it will add to the question.

by ridgesee on May 30, 2008 12:16 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Definetly think trading Perez would be a huge mistake...

Only 63 more wins to go.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 30, 2008 12:36 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Roberts No, Uggla Yes

Is it really worth it for the Cardinals to trade that kind of talent for a 2B on the wrong side of 30? The only way I would part with those prospects is for Dan Uggla. Yes, I understand the concerns with his glove, but he has improved slightly this season and he can’t be too much worse than Miles. Not to mention hes a young guy who can absolutely rake. I know the Marlins have not made any moves as far as looking to lock him up long term and he would be an excellent pickup who could help the team both now and in the long run.

by stl522 on May 30, 2008 12:57 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One big difference

compared to the Mulder fiasco is that it is now possible to trade from strength and depth at the same time. AZ’s analysis is interesting in that it shows that a trade package could be assembled using guys who would still have rough equivalents in the system or on the big team. That wasn’t the case in the Mulder deal. (Of course, the proposed package might not be sufficient to get Roberts, either.)

by StanTheManFan on May 30, 2008 1:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Uggla = disaster with our groundball staff

this team cannot afford a subpar defensive 2b or ss. If those guys aren’t scooping up grounders and turning dps, we’re in trouble.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 30, 2008 3:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but is Uggla much worse defensivley than miles

If he is…yeah, that is a disaster

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 30, 2008 6:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes, much worse

though he seems to be a bit better this year, he was actually worse than Biggio defensively last year.

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on May 30, 2008 6:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on May 30, 2008 9:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Anyone think we could land Matt Holliday for prospects other than Rasmus/Garcia/Perez

with a mix of spare parts?

Duncan, Reyes, Thompson, Schumacher,Motte, Jiminez for Holliday?

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 30, 2008 12:58 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rox

I doubt they would have significant interest in Rasmus or Perez from a needs standpoint. Dexter Fowler is their CF of the future, and Casey Weathers is their closer of the future. With regards to starting pitching, that should be of most interest to them.

by Recon on May 30, 2008 2:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

clarification

Understood. I think Rasmus and Perez would normally be the top trade targets of any team looking to trade with StL. So making them untouchable would halt most trade talks. In the case of Colorado, our top prospects match positions/roles with their top prospects. So I think there’s better chances of working something out with Colorado than with most teams.

by Recon on May 30, 2008 3:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

why trade for an OF?

That’s the one part of the team that’s working

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 30, 2008 3:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

or should I say one of the parts of the team that's working well

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 30, 2008 3:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree.

But if you could consolidate some potential into a proven MVP candidate then I would do that long as you can sign him although I worry he might dip off a bit not playing half his games in Colorado.

Just a thought.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 30, 2008 5:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ronny Cedeno?

Probably unlikely either team would trade within the division, but Ronny Cedeno just isn’t getting any ABs behind DeRosa this year (and rightfully so I suppose with DeRosa hitting 308/400/453). I wonder if we’d have a shot at him. Cedeno is hitting well in 93 PAs this year (321/402/444), and it would seem the Cubs want more options in the outfield as they actually thought JEd would give them some value. Options in the outfield…that’s what we have, right?

So, assuming that both teams WOULD consider trading with each other at all, what would it take to get Ronny Cedeno? Duncan for Cedeno straight up? I’d say the Cards would be getting the better of the deal right now, but if Duncan were to start hitting again, the trade might get a little more balanced. Baseball Prospectus’s MORP projection projects both Duncan and Cedeno at similar valuations for this year ($6 million) and over the next few years.

by lightbulb on May 30, 2008 1:11 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey, I posted about Cedeno a few days back! I wish the Cubs would let him go.....

I happen to think he’s poised to break out-all he needs is some consistent time in the field. The Cubs would not be so stupid as to let this kid go, would they?

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 30, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Probably not

Unless they think their French Connection of Theriot and Fontenot a good one for the future.

by lightbulb on May 30, 2008 3:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The French Connection guys are useful players; I don't see either one of them as the key

player to get to the next level. I don’t know if Cedeno is either. I just think he’s got a chance to be a better all around player in the long run.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 30, 2008 3:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

see my comment above for other cubs/french connections

also, there’s the Marquis du Jason, and the musketeer Aramis (ramirez). they also previously employed juan pierre and jacque jones, no?

by mattybobo on May 30, 2008 3:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought Jason Marquis was a Jewish boy from New York. Seriously.

Now you’re telling me he’s French? Might explain why teams get confused and think he’s really good pitcher, when he’s really only a really good #4-5 guy on your staff…....

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 30, 2008 3:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He is a Jew from New York

But Marquis is a French name (title?)...Ryan Theriot and Mike Fontenot are from the Gulf Coast, too…it’s just those names…

I’m not really from Ireland, though my last name is ;)

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 30, 2008 3:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's not poised to break out

he IS breaking out. Lou is just sticking with Theriot for now. Cedeno seems to have figured out how to hit, and Cubs fans are clamoring for him ‘cause he seems to have more power than Theriot and is a better defensive shortstop.

by sdrone on May 30, 2008 4:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

MAJOR PROPS!

Duncan can go down and work on his swing and now we have another power bat in our lineup!

Like the article says, if Duncan gets going he is a big asset to this team. But right now he is hurting the team.

Wow.. excellent news!

Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!

I don't care about your fantasy team.

by stltrav09 on May 30, 2008 1:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, it's the right move

and from the article:

And by the way, I think it’s important for everyone to know that Tony La Russa supports this, and thinks it’s the right move. Those who would assume that this is something being done against his will would be wrong. Tony is on board.

Some of the folks crying “nepotism” owe LaRussa an apology.

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on May 30, 2008 1:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also

Cards face lefties 5 of the next 6 games.

by indakind on May 30, 2008 1:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it all works out really well

Duncan got to play one more game in the Majors before he goes down. He does well, gets a confidence boost, and now gets to play everyday (albeit in the minors, but his sluggin is way down)

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 30, 2008 2:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

pay attention hard- core

stop washing so much

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on May 30, 2008 3:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cards facing LH Pitching

3 of 4 next games and more next week, so AB’s for Duncan will be too scarce for him to get out of his funk.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 30, 2008 1:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Didn't stop to think about that angle

You’re right – even if you feel it’s just your typical slump for Duncan, as I still do, it makes a lot of sense to let him work it out in Memphis because of the matchup edge Mather gives against all the lefties coming up.

by Merry CRasmus on May 30, 2008 3:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow is right

I am in shock right now. Mouth is wide open.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 30, 2008 2:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

sweet

I’m a big fan of working on this team internally rather than a trade. unless Moz figures out a good trade to make (maybe one-up Jocketty)

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 30, 2008 2:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mather up, dunc down

per Bernie on 1380

Well who the hell can see forever?

by Alxfritz on May 30, 2008 1:57 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wish Chris the best and short stint in Memphis

Although advocating for the move, I take no pleasure in it. As a fan, we want to see all of our boys succeed. But he’ll play everyday in AAA and that’s what Chris needs at present. Let’s hope he mashes in AAA forcing the team to recall him.

by jjray on May 30, 2008 2:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's a fine sentiment

and a positive attitude. I’m pretty selfish, though, and am hoping he stays down long enough for me to see him launch a few out of the park when the Redbirds come to Round Rock in June. :-)

by random on May 30, 2008 2:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I either wish him a short stay

or that Mather does so well there’s no chance to swap them back. Maybe I’m an asshole for saying this, but as long as we have good power-production from that roster spot I don’t care if it comes from Duncan or Mather.

by Ray Lankford on May 30, 2008 2:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

could not agree more

If Mather gets hot and stays hot, and Duncan does the same down there, the Cards have some serious trade chips.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 30, 2008 6:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Will TLR

go with all RH batting outfielders tonight? Barton LF, Ludwick CF and Mather RF?

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 30, 2008 2:21 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Doubt it

My guess:

Mather LF/RF
Ankiel CF
Ludwick RF/LF

I don’t know enough about Mather to know if he’s the better fielder than Ludwick, so I don’t know how that outfield would set up

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 30, 2008 2:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Barton not playing

Then does he have Ryan bat first?

Ryan
Mather
Pujols
Ludwick
Glaus
Ankiel
Molina
P
Izturis

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 30, 2008 2:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

all of a sudden

that looks like a pretty strong lineup.

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on May 30, 2008 2:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah

but how often will we actually see that lineup? Only if Kennedy gets DL’d.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on May 30, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree

This Mather call up is nice and all but we need to figure out a way to get Kennedy out of the picture…....I don’t want Tony to even have the option of playing him.

by ICbirdfan on May 30, 2008 2:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

is it so hard to just say “you’re fired, adam”

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 30, 2008 2:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think TLR would

be delighted to be rid of AK. I’ll bet the real obstacle here is ownership’s unwillingness to bail on his contract.

by MdRedbirdFreak on May 30, 2008 3:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would actually think it's the other way around

Even after Kennedy bitched in the P-D yesterday, TLR responded by saying he had “great respect” for AK. Just cut the bum!

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 30, 2008 3:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't forget TLR's January comments

about his dissappointment with Kennedy not attending the Fanfest especially after AK’s 2007 performance. I don’t recall the exact quote but I believe TLR said his patience would be short with AK if the performance on the field wasn’t there.

by ubeddie on May 30, 2008 5:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I almost forgot about that

You have to think AK’s string is getting mighty frayed

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 30, 2008 6:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

that lineup looks pretty wicked

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 30, 2008 2:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

now I gotta watch tonight!!!

I want to see this Mather guy in action, I did not see him play in ST as only about 4 games were on TV.

How is the weather in the Lou? any rain delay chances?

by ICbirdfan on May 30, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/hourbyhour/STL:9

isolated t-storms -> scattered strong storms -> scattered t-storms

by astrostl on May 30, 2008 2:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Per NOAA

This Afternoon: A 50 percent chance of showers and thunderstorms after 3pm. Some storms could be severe, with large hail and damaging winds. Partly cloudy, with a high near 88. South wind around 17 mph, with gusts as high as 24 mph.

Tonight: Showers and thunderstorms likely, mainly before 1am. Some storms could be severe, with large hail and damaging winds. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 68. West wind between 7 and 13 mph. Chance of precipitation is 70%.

Saturday: A 20 percent chance of showers and thunderstorms after 8am. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 86. West wind between 8 and 10 mph.

Saturday Night: Mostly cloudy, with a low around 64. West wind between 3 and 6 mph.

Sunday: Partly sunny, with a high near 86. West wind between 3 and 8 mph.

Sunday Night: Partly cloudy, with a low around 66.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 30, 2008 2:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well I'll be damned...

the team management might finally be coming out of it’s organizational slumber. Props to our GM.

Steriods is...is bad.

by Handsome Jimmy on May 30, 2008 2:23 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like that Bernie said LaRussa was 'on board' with this

of course he is. Just like he was on board with other things that he was told were going to happen no matter what.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on May 30, 2008 2:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For the record

Tony WAS on board with the sun rising today. Thought it was a good call, actually.

by Ray Lankford on May 30, 2008 2:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Been there, heard that

Yeah, he was on board moving Reyes to the Bullpen. Hope this works a whole lot better.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 30, 2008 2:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if MO keeps telling him what to do

i seriously wonder if he’ll be the manager next season? he does not like being told what to do.

any way, good for MO. i just hope the move we all have wanted to happen works out for every one.

meaning, DUNK gets healthy & finds his power.

and joey bombs comes up & lives up to his name.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on May 30, 2008 3:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Joey Bombs in a good way

Looks great HL…. quick post. Impressed.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 30, 2008 2:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is he gonna be #21?

The last #21 that I can remember was Betty…unless someone had it last year

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 30, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Somewhere, a single tear is running down Tino Martinez's eye

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 30, 2008 3:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Somewhere, a single tear is running down Mr Redbird's eye

Because he was just reminded that Tino Martinez was a player for the Cardinals one season

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 30, 2008 3:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

damn...

why’d you guys have to remind me

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on May 30, 2008 3:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it was only one?

I could have swore it was two. No wonder that was one LONG season.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 30, 2008 6:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was two

I tried so hard to forget about him, the memory is a bit fuzzy…

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 30, 2008 6:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

served him right

for wearing Curt Flood’s number. But that’s just my bitter, tear-stained opinion.

by random on May 30, 2008 3:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's a good thing they didn't have the internets back then.......that trade broke my heart for years.

Mr. Flood’s plight after everything was settled for him broke my heart even more…...RIP, Mr. Flood.

If you all think I’m bad now, I know I would have been worse then. I just know it…...

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 30, 2008 3:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I remember there used to be a theory that Curt Flood's departure

cursed the number 21, and all the players that wore it would be a disaster for the Cardinals. I don’t remember if anyone wore 21 in the 80s, though

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 30, 2008 6:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bake McBride

Had a decent enough stint in it

Well who the hell can see forever?

by Alxfritz on May 30, 2008 7:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

is it just me

or does Joe Mather sound like a Hall of Famer name?

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 30, 2008 3:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe...sounds like Joe Morgan?

He’ll only be like Joe if he’s…wait for it…consistent.

by lightbulb on May 30, 2008 3:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But having another consistent bat in the lineup

doesn’t make you a great team. There are no great teams anymore. You have to be consistent with your starting pitching, hitting and fielding. Consistent starting pitching is important for winning in today’s game, but hitters have to consetrate (intended) so that they can help the team win. Each team has plusses and minuses and being consistent helps the plusses and minuses match up so the team can win. I am in the hall of fame because I was a consistent second baseman on a great team.

Ok, I’m done being Joe Morgan now.

by Ray Lankford on May 30, 2008 4:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I haven't really seen Mather play

I haven’t done any of his games yet so I can’t really comment on him.

by Merry CRasmus on May 30, 2008 4:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Though I know

that Joe Mather is no Gary Sheffield.

by lightbulb on May 30, 2008 4:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If we find out Mather thinks

that Billy Beane wrote Moneyball, that’s a damned good omen.

by MdRedbirdFreak on May 30, 2008 5:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't think

Mather will wear #21 because LaRue is wearing it this season. Unless he would like to swap out his number for Joey Bombs.

by cardsgirl95 on May 30, 2008 3:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that just proves

the cursing of 21 continues

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 30, 2008 6:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For those Reyes lovers out there....

Looks like a good matchup tonight : Anthony Reyes Vs. Rich Hill.

I really hope this Duncan down and Mather up thing is true. We’ve seen this work in the past with names such as Todd Zeile, Brian Jordan, and JD Drew….no reason to not give it a try.

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on May 30, 2008 2:43 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't do much?

Hill was pretty darn good for a crappy 5th starter last year.

Then he just lost it in spring training. Dunno why. If that 69 mph curveball is floating in but outside, his 89 mph fastball is useless.

by sdrone on May 30, 2008 4:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

3-0 Rockies

Rox put runners on the corners then got 2 unproductive outs. Just when it looked like the Cubs were going to escape the inning, Helton launched one into the bleachers.

Side note… Edmonds starting in CF today. I think this may be his last shot…

Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!

I don't care about your fantasy team.

by stltrav09 on May 30, 2008 2:55 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

4 ER for Lilly in the 1st

I love it. This only means, of course, that the Cubs will roar back and win 9-4, scoring all of their runs in the 7th, 8th, and 9th, and with 2 out

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 30, 2008 3:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I see a 12-14 game

just don’t know who wins it. Winds in STL we’ll be up tonight due to storms.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 30, 2008 3:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not only that

but the Rockies will leave the bases loaded with no outs in the 4th, 5th, 7th and 9th.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on May 30, 2008 3:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No kidding Hardcore

did you see the Dodgers play the Cubbies?

The Dodgers did the same thing loading bases and not scoring a few times.

by ICbirdfan on May 30, 2008 3:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You Called it!

But it was worse than what you said it would be…..9-10.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 30, 2008 5:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It would be funny

If it weren’t true….

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 30, 2008 5:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have heard

Jimmy has said he looks forward to spending some time with his kids.
Just do it Jimmy.
We can forget this little episode ever happened.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 30, 2008 6:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

say cubbies

want someone named skip for derosa?

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 30, 2008 2:56 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

aaron crow

just showed again why he won’t be available at 13. 3-hit CG shutout of ole miss, 10 K. mizzou will likely play miami for a chance to advance out of the regionals.

e'rebuilding mang

by nycbirdo on May 30, 2008 3:08 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I never understand why people keep saying that

It isn’t that they don’t like strikeout pitchers. They just don’t like strikeout pitchers that live UP in the zone.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 30, 2008 6:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

even that would be fine

it’s when they get KILLED up in the zone that they become unattractive ;)

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on May 30, 2008 6:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would love to see anywhere Duncan actually said that.

I have never heard him say, up in the zone is ok as long as the pither is effective. Every time I have seem him talk about pitching up and getting outs it was followed by “was lucky”.

by DriverZn on May 30, 2008 7:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

and I think Mr Perez can do fine if he wantsto live up in the zone

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 30, 2008 7:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs