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More trade talk about A. Reyes

MLBtraderumors.com said the Braves and Angels have been scouting the Cards.  It indicated that Reyes was the focal point.  Do you think Reyes is worth Lillibridge?  Mo says Reyes can be had for a top of the line prospect and another player.  Can we really expect to get that from a guy who can't seem to get it together in the rotation.  If he is destined to be a reliever then I don't think he will be worth the asking price.  What do you think?

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It's a question

of whether the Cards’ trading partner in the deal thinks Reyes can “get it together” in the rotation. With the Birds’ current starting staff pitching well, Mo can claim that Reyes isn’t in the rotation because “there’s no room”...

Ask for more than you think you can get for a guy, and you might get surprised! Mo’s under no pressure to make a deal right now; teams who need another pitcher right now might “overpay”...

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on May 3, 2008 11:06 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Do you really want to know what I think?

Since you asked, I’ll say Mr. Mozeliak is making a big mistake if he really is asking for a top prospect and another player…..the only teams that could afford to part with that would be the Angels, the Red Sox and possibly the Cleveland Indians. I don’t see that any of those teams really need him-unless the Angels are thinking of not retaining Jon Garland, and worried about the long term health of Escobar, but still, they have solutions in their own system. Ditto the Red Sox. The Indians have more lefthanders than they need, and may want to replace Byrd for 2009 and insure themselves against Westbrook’s yearly DL time. But none of those teams needs is great enough for them to make a deal where they overpay. And IMO, that’s what the Cardinals are doing.

He is making a hugh mistake here. Go read the comments about this at MLB trade rumors….....”he can’t even beat out Looper, Wellemeyer, and Piniero for a rotation spot” Fair or not to those pitchers (who have been pitching well so far) the perception of an awful lot of people is he’s crap.

I’m thinking they are going to play around with this until Reyes gets hurt, completely falls apart trying to adjust to his new role, or finally goes postal…...then they can just non tender him at the end of the season.

I said at the end of spring training, if they were not going to commit to him (and I DON’T mean being forced onto the roster by Mr. Mozeliak), that he should be moved for the first offer of a player they could use. No fleecing. Just a fair trade. They didn’t do that. Now we know why. It’s a stupid strategy, and it most likely will blow up in their face…..

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 3, 2008 11:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Mo's trade psychology

It seems that Mo is simply positioning himself as “not a pushover,” by asking for a reasonably high return on Reyes.

He doesn’t have a significant track record as a GM, and only has the one deal – Glaus for Rolen – on his resume. He should get credit for that, although it was a deal that was almost ready-made, as both were players in problem situations who happen to field the same position.

Personally, though, I think he’s making a mistake taking this hard-line stand with this particular player. It simply isn’t realistic. And it’s a very thin line between taking a prideful stance and becoming Dave Littlefield, who would alienate so many possible trade partners with unreasonable demands that he removed all of his bargaining leverage when it came time to move a guy. Then all he gets is peatuts for prime rib from a team like the Yankees.

"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz

by taiko on May 3, 2008 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely NOT the player to take a hard line on.......

Maybe he’s afraid he’ll look bad if Reyes does turn it around. And I’m one of about three people who think he will make them look bad. If they get someone good for him, well it will look like a good deal for both teams.

I’m all for asking for more than you’ll think you get; it’s silly to continue to demand it. Every single GM in baseball knows that Mr. LaRussa and Mr. Duncan do NOT want Reyes on their team. They know LaRussa is under contract for 2009, they assume Duncan will be back. Why would you pay a kings ransom when you can wait for the cheap pick up for 2009? That’s when they HAVE to move him.

The more I think about this, I just flat out think Mr. Mozeliak is playing this into a big time losing hand.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 3, 2008 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe he really likes Reyes and wants to keep him

but would be open to a trade if offered the sun and stars for him. I know it’s madness to suggest such a thing around here, but…

"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams

by Valatan on May 3, 2008 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have wondered that myself......

Someone in the organization may not want him gone. I remember a picture in spring training of Reyes talking to Mr. DeWitt…...what does Mr. DeWitt say to a young man when all winter you talk about trading him, essentially talk trash about him in the media, and he’s still here. Do you say, sorry, we’ll try to get you out of here, or sorry, some of the remarks were a little over the top, or we don’t think your good enough, or we still think you can turn it around. What does management say to the player? I mean, has Reyes ever sat down with management and said what the eff? He seems to take every step, forward and back, in stride. Should they continue to ask him to do that? Is that fair to him and everyone else in the organization-and I mean players that might be moved because of him or even with him.

Or is it someone else they are trying to trade and using Reyes as the phone call bait?

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 3, 2008 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gosh, I knew if I started posted on this topic I wouldn't stop.

I’ve been so good lately.

One last point: They should just stop the talk about trading him right now. They look and sound foolish, IMO. Let us know when you trade him. Otherwise, we see him here. Stop the talk.

I have always admired how Mr. Reyes has handled his ups and downs with extreme professionalism. Now, I would like to request the whole Cardinal orginization respect that side of him and respond in kind by behaving in a professional manner towards him.

Part of the mess they are in, and it mostly happened before Mr. Mozeliak took over, is the comments they made about their unhappiness with Reyes, and LaRussa was quoted last year saying bluntly, “He’s not a major league pitcher.” I don’t care how upset they were with him, that is a total lack of professionalism, and one of the worst kind of quotes to have out there. You all have heard of search engines, no? He will never get a top prospect in a trade. Never.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 3, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All due respect Jill

but I don’t understand how the Cards ‘look and sound foolish.” Maybe we think they are asking a little too much for Reyes . . . what’s wrong with that? The only thing that matters, as Old Goaler correctly pointed out, is how the Cards’ trading partner feels about Reyes. If people are interested in Reyes, and think they can get the most out of his talents, then great—they’ll have to pay for it though. Everyone in baseball knows that A.Ray has fallen out of favor with the coaching staff. I doubt that the speculation surrounding a trade is informing any GM that A.Ray is available. Besides, who’s to say that the Cards are fueling this talk anyway? It could be that other teams are the ones talking about a Reyes trade, in which case it wouldn’t be the Cards looking and sounding foolish, IMO.

I love Reyes too, and I wish he could just go out and do his thing. I also agree that he has taken everything in stride. I guess I just don’t see how the Cards are doing anything foolish with their current approach.

by Ray Lankford on May 4, 2008 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, with all due respect to you, sir....

I do think they look foolish. They say he’s available so:

Phillies send scouts to three different cities.
No deal.

Ten teams send scouts to spring training.
No deal.

He’s available at the winter meetings; several teams inquire.
No deal.

Padres try to acquire him in a deal.
No deal.

Phillies offer Michael Bourn.
No deal.

Pirates offer Craig Wilson. (Walt ALMOST does this deal.)
No deal.

I do not know for a fact that the Tigers want him. But since they once drafted him, I would not be at all surprised if they have inquired about him too.

I have a problem with them telling teams he’s available and then not making him available. I have a problem with the human side of it as well. Mr. Reyes is a human being, and my perception of him is that he’s quite a decent one. I just don’t think it’s right that this goes on day after day, month after month, and year after year. They have been supposedly trading him since mid-2005. He can read, you know. It must be a wonderful feeling to show up everyday wondering if this is the day. Everyday! And now that it’s turned into ‘we don’t really want you, but we will only trade you if we can fleece someone’ it’s even worse .

Maybe the Cardinals aren’t fueling the rumors-but it’s out there. It’s looking like the GM is crying wolf…....or worse, doesn’t KNOW what he’s doing, doesn’t know what he wants, or doesn’t know what he’s dealing. A top prospect AND another piece? Indeed. When they determined he didn’t fit their needs, and that was a long time ago, he should have been quietly traded for a player who does meet their needs. They blew it and Mr. Mozeliak is making it worse.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 4, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well said Jill

JMo is a new GM. He has to establish his credentials as a reliable actor in the trade market, otherwise, as you say, teams will blow JMo off for crying wolf. If Reyes is “available” then JMo has to listen to realistic offers for the guy. I don’t mind hard negotiating. But look at A. Reyes ML stats. Sure, the Cards will keep pointing to his minor league stats to say that these reflect his true potential … but young Mr. Reyes has 219 innings in the show with a career 5.41 ERA and 1.36 WHIP. On paper, he looks like a cheap replacement level pitcher, nothing more. The only thing in the ML stats pointing to the unrealized promise is 168 Ks v. 84 BB. Two to one, Ks to BBs is better than replacement level. What is the value of a cheap 4/5 starter? Either make a deal or pull Reyes off the market AND put him into the rotation. Either the Cards commit to ARay or they should punt. The guy’s highest value is as a starter. Realize it.

by jjray on May 4, 2008 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, thanks Mr. jjray.......

It took me about 3,477,498 posts to make the same point.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 4, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sorry

... but I had not read your posts below before making mine. It appears I plagiarized your points. I’m sure we’re not the only two people on this site who prefer the Cards either commit to Anthony as a starter or trade him. Motte and/or Perez can give us what were getting from Anthony out of the pen.

by jjray on May 4, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I assumed that you had read my points. No offense taken.

I thought you just agreed with me!

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 4, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Looks like

they committed to letting him start by sending him down to Memphis.

by ubeddie on May 4, 2008 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess I just disagree with your premise

that making someone “available” and then trying to get the best deal possible by rejecting deals makes MO look foolish. You have a problem with MO “telling teams he’s available and then not making him available.” I don’t think that’s happening. Maybe he hasn’t been offered anything good. Bourn and Wilson? That’s exactly what we need - two outfielders who are worse than the 5 we already have. I think MO has a duty to get the best possible return for A.Ray - if he doesn’t think Michael Bourn or Craig Wilson is a good return, then he has a duty to reject the deal, all foolish appearances aside.

A.Ray does seem like a great guy. He really does. But he’s also a major league baseball player, and major league baseball players get traded, hear criticism, and are aware of speculation surrounding their trade status.

I see no reason why we are in any rush to trade him—as you point out, if we aren’t getting offers that meet our needs (and Bourn and Wilson certainly don’t) then why in the world would we rush to trade him?

by Ray Lankford on May 4, 2008 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because they keep telling other major league teams he is available.

Teams show up. If he’s not available you are LYING if you say he is. He’s a new GM. Great way to start, out no? Make sure no one believes a word you say.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 4, 2008 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's what I don't understand

Is it hard to believe that he IS actually available, but that no one has offered a good deal yet? Just because MO rejects a trade offer doesn’t mean A.Ray isn’t available. Maybe it means IT WAS JUST A SHITTY OFFER.

by Ray Lankford on May 4, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So what. They see him as a shitty player.

I say trade him for the first shitty player you’ll use…......

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 4, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

when

when will they use a player worse than the ones they have? I agree with most of your premise – Reyes should be used in his primary role (starter) or traded. But you are losing me here. Reyes has value – you know this, I know this, Mo knows this. I know that you do not think he is a shitty player – not with all the defense of him that you have posted here in the last few years. You want him traded for dirt just so he has a chance to prove the management wrong. This will never happen – Mo would not be doing his job if he were to give Reyes away.

by cdb on May 4, 2008 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fine

and you can say that, but if we haven’t been offered “a shitty player we’ll use,” then your beef with the organization just doesn’t make any sense.

To say that rejecting deals for A.Ray is tantamount to lying is just plain ridiculous. I like A.Ray too. I have a healthy skepticism for the organization’s public statements on things. But I just don’t see what you are upset about here.

by Ray Lankford on May 4, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

First off, I don't think he's a shitty player. I was trying to make fund of Mr.Lankford's statement of a shitty offer.

Reyes only value is a trade chip, and they refuse to cash it, and it makes me mad. Because if they are not going to use him in their starting rotation, he’s worth nothing to them. Anyone could come up from Memphis and pitch from the pen, probably better than Reyes. My point is how can they turn around and say he’s so valuable we have to fleece you when their own actions say we don’t think much of this guy?

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 4, 2008 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

problem

The problem as I see it is that there is a disagreement between Mo and the front office and the LaDunc over the potential for Reyes. Dunc can’t stand him and Tony is using him as a mop-up pitcher for the most part. But Mo thinks he is of value. So we get mixed messages. When you say ‘they’ you are referring to two divergent points of view. Unfortunately Reyes is stuck in the middle. If Mo was in fact a puppet, Reyes would be gone. If Tony was a puppet of the front office, Reyes would be starting for the Cards. Unfortuantely for Anthony, Mo and Tony are both strong enough to stand up for what they beleive in. We can be dissappointed that Reyes is in this situation, but the team would be worse of if either the FO or the field managers were spineless.

by cdb on May 4, 2008 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, he's been demoted.

They no longer want him. I have been saying all along if your not going to use him, what value is he to you? Mr. Mozeliak is a coward IMO for doing this to this young man. A COWARD!

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 4, 2008 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

irrational

You are being irrational now. You claim to have the interest of the young man in mind and feel that he is getting the shaft, and then turn around and start calling the GM names? based on what? blind speculation? Unless you know something that none of us know – and I mean know, not feel, then I cannot take your arguments seriously

by cdb on May 5, 2008 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You don't have to take me, my arguments,

my points seriously. You’re a living breathing, human being too. Sorry if I offend….I do think the gm is being a coward. I really do. It’s easy to just push him down to Memphis. Out of sight, out of mind, now he doesn’t have to think about a DECISION. I think that’s a cowardly thing to do.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 5, 2008 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the decision is to put him where he won't hurt the MLB

club, and where he can get his act together to the point where he will either be ready to contribute to the St. Louis Cardinals, or have a worthwhile amount of trade value again. He obviously isn’t fitting in the bullpen, and given that the rotation is actually successful this season, he hardly merits bumping anyone out of the rotation as of right now. And his trade value is nil.

He needs to go to Memphis and prove that he can get batters out and prevent home runs again.

"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams

by Valatan on May 5, 2008 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My last post on the matter

You can’t simply say “trade him” without taking into account what they’ve been offered. Its a two way street. To the extent they haven’t been offered anything of value, “they” aren’t sending mixed messages; “they” are just waiting for the right offer, which doesn’t necessarily mean they are trying to fleece their trading partner. Part of the problem with this argument is that outside of the two examples you gave (Bourn, Wilson), we don’t have the foggiest idea what has been on the table. You can’t be mad at the Cards for refusing to “cash the Reyes trade chip” without knowing what they’ve been offered. Seriously, what the fuck are the Cardinals going to do with another outfielder thats no better than the 5 we already have? I can’t share your outrage until I hear that we actually rejected a trade that would be marginally useful.

by Ray Lankford on May 4, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

He’s probably saying Top Prospect and another player because he wouldn’t mind keeping Reyes, and if no one can meet that, then Mo is fine with keeping him around. Of course, if someone does offer a top prospect and another player, it’d be hard for him not to take it.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on May 3, 2008 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It also depends on what Mo plans to do with Duncan.

Perhaps he thinks like I do that if Duncan isn’t renewed next year that perhaps Reyes would turn it around with a new coach.

by DriverZn on May 3, 2008 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OMG! That, sir, would never happen. Would it?

Well, you know Brian Roberts is available too….......maybe that’s Reyes

I mean, pitch to contact is wonderful and all, but I would like some power pitchers too. It breaks things up a bit when you have a 4 game series.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 3, 2008 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No need to trade

him for anything right now so I don’t believe the trade needs to be forced to happen right now. As much as some won’t like it, Reyes can be optioned this year. And you never know if LaRussa will stick around next year to go through another “lame duck” year like last year.

As far as all the talk , the media is out there 24/7 now and needs to report something to fill space. Do you want Mo quoted as saying please take this guy off our hands? Mo has to start negotiations high and his position will be “reported”. Don’t forget also that there are 29 GM’s who are competing against each other in presenting trade offers.

by ubeddie on May 3, 2008 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then maybe Mr. Mozeliak can just come out and say "We have decided to keep Mr. Reyes"

Scouts that want to see him will just show up anyway. GM’s that might want him will call anyway. If holding on to him for a better deal, or see if he can improve any here is what they are doing then he is officially not on the market, right? Just say it. When you change your mind, tell us then..

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 4, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but

do you really think anyone would beleive him if he said that? Particularly how we, as fans, hear the news: if it is said to the media it can be viewed by anyone with an ounce of skepticism as posturing.

by cdb on May 4, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's better than to keep saying he's being traded, letting scouts and GM's make offers, and then not trading him.

Is that going to help in cultivate trust from the other GM’s? I think not…....

Honestly, I don’t trust much what the front office says. See Mulder. See Clement. See Rolen. See Eckstein. Lots of disinformation, IMO.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 4, 2008 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

keep in mind

I think it is important to keep in mind that we know very little of what is actually being discussed between professional ball clubs. Probably many of the rumors that we hear in the media about this team or that being interested are accurate, many are probably completely wrong. We have no idea what sort of dynamic there is between say the braves and Mo when discussing Reyes. We here from one reporter that Mo is asking for the moon, and that many view his requests as too high. Those comments could have come VERY early in the negotiating process, and are likely missing counter offers and negotiations. I am sure that Mo has a very good idea of what Reyes is worth, as far as performance and potential, and will attempt to broker a deal that he thinks will benefit the cardinals in the long run. That is his job. I am sure that he also is familiar with the personal side of the coin. He put Reyes on the ML roster – and that is what Reyes wanted – not what LaDuncan wanted. You may be skeptical of his motives, and with some reason, but when presented with two options: send him to AAA to be a starter again, or to be a releiver in the ML, both Reyes and Mo wanted the same thing… big league club. Reyes is still has promise, and promise has value. Mo is rightfully trying to get the best deal for the club.

by cdb on May 4, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure he's trying to do the right thing.

But he’s not. He sending scouts on wild goose chases; he’s asking for way too much according to Jayson Stark a top prospect and another piece. All for a player that they don’t want…..I happen to think Reyes is a tough dude, and will hold up through whatever they put him through. But I still think it’s wrong to put him through it.

Mr. Mozeliak wanted Reyes here to show he controlled the roster. I do not think they have ever had this particular players best interest at heart. So I guess they can try to say he’s valuable, when every action they have ever taken says the opposite. He hasn’t played particularly well here. So what’s the big deal? What’s with the high demands? It shows indecision and a club lacking direction IMO.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 4, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

to a point

I agree to a point. I think that Mo was trying to take control of the roster. And quite frankly, he is supposed to have control of the roster, so he is doing his job. Did he have Reyes best interest in mind? Not likely, but Reyes seemed genuinely happy to be on the roster as a releiver rather than as a starter in Memphis. I to realize that we are dealing with humans here, but it is Mo’s job to have the organization in mind when he makes decisions.

Stark reported that Mo want’s too much in return for reyes. My point was that we have no idea whether Mo countered with another offer. We have no idea whether these mystery GMs that Stark talked to are trying to use the media to leverage their trade offer. We really don’t have any idea whether what stark reports is accurate – though he seems to be one of the better baseball journalists out there – so I will give him the benefit of the doubt here. I think you are being a little hasty to downplay Mo’s abilities here. Mo should no give away Reyes – you seem to think that he should be given away for peanuts. That will not happen as long he has value – real or perceived – it matters little what his history is as long as someone thinks he still possesses the magical ‘upside’. And if there are in fact ten teams willing to take a look at him as a few teams that liked what they saw – that means Mo has leverage and can ask for a little more.

But I still say that it is most imporatant to realize that we know VERY LITTLE of what is actually being said in front offices around the majors about Reyes. 99% of the discussions between organizations will never make it to us. We should therefore not jump to conclusions on subjects such as these. I know you care about Reyes the human, and I cannot fault you for that. But Mo takes a beating frequently in the press too. There are MANY victims in baseball – Reyes may be one of them, but he is still one of many. Izzy is getting booed again, LaRussa is constantly second guessed, Duncan Sr. is considered a fossil, how must Miles feel when he reads VEB vitriol? And this is a short list just of our favorite team – who are generally treated well compared to others around the country.

by cdb on May 4, 2008 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure Reyes was really happy to learn he beat out the great Kelvin Jimenez. And that Duncan and LaRussa preferred Jimenez to him.

I have no doubt he’d rather be in ML instead of back in Memphis.

Peanuts, popcorn, a fringe minor leaguer, a fringe major leaguer. It makes no difference. They don’t want him. What the hell difference does it make what they get? I say just get a player you can use. I maintain any player you will use is worth a player you won’t.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 4, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

don't forget

Edmonds for Freese, which was a tremendous trade for us.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 3, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i hope that isn't sarcastic...

... because it really was a great trade.

by kindred on May 3, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Why don't we get glausy eyed and put back some franklin's....

by punksoulbrutha on May 3, 2008 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no sarcasm

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 5, 2008 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes +!

If Edmonds was here there would be no Barton and JimmE would be eating up too much playing time and Schu would be on the bench…. Jim was the one who requested the trade. So maybe he gets the credit for it not Mo!

by nybirdfan on May 4, 2008 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just hope he gets better in time with the left splits. Man that’s all we need, another guy with issues hitting lefties.

But he’s a great ‘10 prospect as the contract with Glaus wains.

And when you add the two trades together with the money involved we ended up out with almost a mil in cash on top of someone who’s setting in for a gold glove defense and marching on the doubles record, and a 3rd base prospect should something happen.

Two excellent trades.

And while not a trade, the approach to Lohse had to be commended.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on May 4, 2008 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

peatuts = peanuts

heheh. “Peatuts.” sounds dirty.

"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz

by taiko on May 3, 2008 11:38 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Reyes

I think while TLR is around, Reyes will never get a chance. His style of pitching conflicts with the TLR/Duncan philosophy, and I don’t really see him succeeding under this coaching staff, so we might as well trade him for at least one good prospect. If we do trade him though, we have a very strong possibility of another Dan Haren situation on our hands.

"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it."- Rogers Hornsby

by redbirds8233 on May 3, 2008 2:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm not so sure..

There is a very strong possibility of another Dan Haren situation…maybe a very slight possibility. I’m thinking more a MARK CLARK situation. anyone remember him? he went 3-10 as a 24 year old in the early ‘90s and we traded him for Mark Whiten. He had a couple of good seasons for the Indians and Mets and finished his career 74-71 with a 4.61 era

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on May 3, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, if he's Mark Clark, that's still a valuable piece to the back end of someone's rotation.

Or maybe somewhere in between Haren and Clark. Or maybe he’ll be like Jose Rios-burn very brightly for a relatively short time. Or complete washout. Who knows?

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 3, 2008 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know...

i’m just saying theres a huge differance between trading a future ace and trading a future “maybe” back of the rotation starter.

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on May 3, 2008 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jill

I asked you a week or so ago who you would trade Reyes for. I know you really like the him, and I respect that, but I wouldn’t mind seeing him leave. I believe you said ask for Escabar and if we ended up with Lillibridge you would be ok with it. We seam to have plenty of young pitching coming along so we could afford to move him for a young long term solution to the middle infield. Have you changed your mind about moving Reyes?
Lillibridge is not off to a great start, and even though his glove is not as strong as Lillibridge’s I have been more interested in Brandon Wood. Anyway what say you?

by nybirdfan on May 4, 2008 8:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do like him. I accept that he has to leave.

Mr. Mozeliak is using him in a power play with field management. I think it’s terribly unfair. Time for him to cry uncle, and just do a deal. He should be traded for ANYONE that they will use. Anyone. Before he gets hurt. Before he completely comes apart. He escaped through sheer guts yesterday with big assists from the outfielders, and a couple of key strike outs.
I don’t think this bullpen thing is going to go well in the long run.

Actually, I have said they should have traded him when he didn’t make the rotation out of spring training. I said commit to him or trade him now. I don’t consider Mozeliak forcing him onto the roster (instead of Jimenez, who field managemnt wanted) as “commitment.” He is not a valuable commodity because they have never treated him as one. Mo can posture all he wants about a top prospect and another piece-they will never get that. Anyone they can use. That’s their deal.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 4, 2008 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe Mo

can find a Gm whose convinced its all La Duncs fault like alot on here…then maybe they will overpay.

If reyes fails its La dunc if he suceeds its becaus ehe got back to doing it his way…I’m nto a pithing coach but watched him struggle today and his last time out i believe got the first two then gave up a 2 run dong..he’s consistently inconsistent at the big league level..

you could always hang on to him and if La dunc leaves at the end of the season then see what happens

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on May 3, 2008 11:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I try to stay away from Reyes topics

but at this point, I don’t see why you trade him or shop him unless you can identify a serious need the team has currently and can find someone suited to fill that need. and right now, I doubt that there’s any chance of that happening. Reyes already has a role now with the team and I don’t really see the need to move him. his trade value can’t be all that high, and he’s got a role now, so just leave him alone for now. who knows what will happen in the future? but for now, I doubt they’re going to miss out on the deal of the century if they stick with him.

I have a love/hate relationship with the Cardinals' middle relief corps.

by madding on May 4, 2008 5:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

could it be possible

to trade Reyes with a player to be named later? Just for illustration purposes lets say we trade Reyes and a PNL for Brandon Wood. Once Reyes clears the 25 man roster (Wood would be assigned to AAA) Mulder gets activated and he is the PNL and gets moved to the Angles. Is that Possible? Not the trade exactly but the tatic?

by nybirdfan on May 4, 2008 9:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Reyes and Mulder package

Actually, I like your thinking nybirdfan. Anybody who wants Reyes for prospects has to also take on the short term albatross that is Mulder’s contract. Mulder is another pile of poo our buddy uncle Walt left behind for JMo to clean up. It’s entirely possible that sometime next season Mulder will turn things around. In the interim, he’ll have lost 15 games. The Cards can’t endure that. Dump Mulder. If it take Reyes to dump Mulder, I’m fine with that.

by jjray on May 4, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

at this point

if Parisi does get called up, I think it is fine if we trade Reyes FOR a player to be named later. If he isn’t going to be used up here , there rally isn’t any use in sending him back to Memphis. He has proven he can handle that level.

"He was trying to hit a three run homer with the bases empty. To my knowledge, no one in the history of the game has ever done that. But it could happen someday. You never know in this world of baseball." The Moonman

by mattyfrommo on May 4, 2008 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's already there. But I guess it's more fun for the organization to punt.

To keep up the charade that you’re really high on this player, that we just can’t part with him, well, because we don’t have to. I am really, really disappointed in Mr. Mozeliak for not taking care of this.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 5, 2008 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here’s how I look at the Reyes situation. Take it as you will.

I have a ‘57 Ford Fairlane 500 sitting under a tarp all winter. I start it once a week. Every year when winter is done I remove the tarp and I take it to get washed and cleaned out and then it sits in the driveway. I barely touch it, it’s primered, so it doesn’t have an impressive paint job, and the chrome is borderline perfect.

Every year I get 10-12 offers ranging from 500 to 2,500 when it comes in plain view. From an outside appearance it’s a car that never gets used, isn’t polished up. Sometimes it’s someone new, sometimes it’s the same Joe, regardless I’m clearly not going to.

The car very well could be gorgeous in someone else’s driveway, or it could be blue with pink polka dots – I don’t know. I don’t have to get rid of it, I could invest more into it, I may end up in a bind where I actually need it. It has value to me, even if it sits 355 days a year.

Reyes, to me is no different than the above scenario.
No one in Memphis has peaked yet. All of them can benefit from more innings at work. I’m not saying there’s not a few who you’d like to see have a chance, I’m just saying that Memphis provides growth for everyone Reyes could be blocking. As of right now, there’s no opportunity cost.

Even more so when you consider the effective outings that our staff is providing. When you have 3 innings or less of chances for relief, bringing up someone from Memphis to ride pine makes little to no sense at this moment. Let them get innings in and develop, it’s what Memphis is there for.

Even with the chances he’s not making it count. If there is contention that he needs a chance, it’s a false point. He has almost 14 innings of work thus far. The innings avail is widely spread out, actually. Izzy with 13ish, Franklin with 15, K-Mac with 16. Villone with 12.3. He’s getting work, it’s not like he’s sitting and doing nothing.

And in that work.. he’s put up 8 runs on 16 hits with an era over 5. Compare that to the ten runs combined from Villone, Flores, K-Mac and Franklin in over 50 innings of work. He’s not performing, but we still need an innings eater to protect the bullpen when the starter can’t perform. He’s filling that role.

As far as the trade, it’s a lot like my ‘57. When there’s something reasonable, we trade. It’s not just us, but there’s been scout talk that it could be the difference in approaches that goes against his mechanical grain. Everything about Reyes is publically known, so it’s not going to be something that will burn future trade talks. You want to take a chance on him, offer something on value. Right now he’s providing a role that no one else has to. If you want to make a package deal that to get Reyes then that’s fine as well. Irregardless, we don’t need to trade him, there’s no reason to.

If anyone wants to play the role of for the players interest needs to keep that in mind when Lohse looks for a sizeable contract here in the future. I don’t think he’ll sit there and look for the teams interest/investment. he’s out for him. Berating a team for doing the same isn’t making sense.

Reyes is quickly becoming the urban legend under the arches. All of this (not here particularly, but in general) for a guy who’s had one reasonable AAA and two reasonable post seaosn starts, sigh. I’d rather put my attention to Flores in Memphis, who’s absolutely ripping through the innings he’s in, and if it wasn’t for a solo hr, he’d be sporting a 0 era in 15 innings of relief.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on May 4, 2008 10:23 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

this is exactly right.

And i know how you feel about the fairlane- I’ve got an old ford bronco, that I WILL someday fix up, that the GF despises and insists I get rid of. But why would I get rid of it? I’ve put more into it than I’d get back and someday, if things go right, it could make me very happy.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 5, 2008 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

california dreaming

reyes+mulder+izturis = Kahill Greene

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on May 4, 2008 2:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Does anyone think

the prospect that Mo is looking for is Hu from the Dodgers and the other player is Laroche?

by Jumsy on May 4, 2008 6:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hu would be great

Andy LaRoche would be asking for quite a lot

"because at the end of the day they still are the Chicago Cubs"

by rockin the red on May 4, 2008 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought Mo was insane

for holding out and demanding as much as he did before trading Rolen. That worked out pretty well and now I trust he knows what he’s doing with Mr. Reyes. We’ll see when the trigger is pulled, which seems to be just a matter of time now.

by capn crunch on May 5, 2008 12:24 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Exactly....

....trading a player just to trade him is the worst thing you can do for your organization (witness Keith Hernandez for Neil Allen), and ultimately, that’s Mo’s ultimate responsiblity-not the player. In his first two trades, Mo was patient and worked out a fair deal-getting an under-rated 3B prospect for a broken-down Edmonds with limited trade partners, and getting a solid veteran 3B in exchange for the disgrunted, oft-injured Rolan. Both could have been salary dumps; yet, Mo managed to get value in return. Rushing a deal-like the aforementioned Bourne offer-is not the way to run a ballclub. Waiting for the right deal is.

Reyes still has value to the organization, otherwise, he won’t have pitched 13 innings as a reliever in the first month of the season. That’s better than getting a player back who doesn’t fulfill a need in this organization.

by Forsch31 on May 5, 2008 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i dunno

they could have traded Reyes for Bourne and flipped him for Lidge ;-)

by jealousblues on May 5, 2008 5:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, it's pretty one-sided, in favor of the Phils

Any time I can trade a fourth outfielder with only one legitimate tool (speed) for a bona fide closer, I’d do it in a heartbeat. Granted, Houston is starting Bourn, but mostly because they don’t have a better player to force him to the bench.

Sorry, a little off topic. Trade Reyes! Or don’t!

"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz

by taiko on May 5, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the Phillies got the better of the deal too. But I also think they wanted Bourn for speed and defense.

They sure got that…......So maybe it wasn’t a fair trade, but both sides still got what they wanted.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 5, 2008 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rolen and Glaus was a different kind of deal.

Both teams were looking to get rid of player with a high salary that they weren’t interested in going forward with. If Glaus isn’t out there, Rolen would have been much more difficult to move.
I understand about not rushing a deal, but Reyes has been on the market since the winter meetings, and teams have been interested, so what or who are they waiting for? It’s time to go get the right deal. Don’t wait for it-go out and get it-because waiting isn’t risk free either. If he gets hurt, it’s over. Interested teams may find other solutions. I think it’s best to just get everyone to their new team as soon as possible.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 5, 2008 6:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For all you know

teams have been looking around, wanting to vulture him for a low-A prospect, and aren’t really interested in paying any higher than that. They get all the news reports we do. And there are soem indications that the organization IS committed to him, no matter how many nasty words one has to say about TLR and Duncan

"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams

by Valatan on May 5, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Something we're ignoring here is that that market for pitchers is dynamic;

maybe moreso than markets for position players. Simply because pitchers get hurt and take DL stints much more regularly and for longer stints than position players.

Mo and the rest of management may not be being coy - they may be waiting for a team to have half their pitching staff dry up. Which only happens in the regular season. Not saying I see Reyes going to the Yanks, but the Yankees would not have given two buckets of spit for a pitching prospect in March. I’m sure they’re much more interested in pitchers now that Kennedy is in AAA and Hughes is injured/ineffective. Same thing is true with a lot of teams, including potential trade partners - Atlanta has had several pitchers go on the DL.

Mo may also have been waiting to see how OUR staff did. If Lohse had turned into Kip Wells Redux, the need for Reyes might have been more acute.

I don’t think it makes sense to say that making a trade for Reyes in September is the same as one in March is the same as one in May.

by tom s. on May 5, 2008 2:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

These Reyes threads

get kind of creepy.

Well who the hell can see forever?

by Alxfritz on May 6, 2008 2:27 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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