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dump duncan?

bernie argues that the cards should send duncan to memphis. reading between the lines, i surmise that the increasingly loud jeers are weighing on duncan (way to go Best Fans); it also seems clear that he’s either not 100 pct healthy or hasn’t shaken off the bad habits he got into while trying to play through last year’s injury. the cardinals have faced a lot of left-handed pitching this month, and i wondered if perhaps duncan’s current slump (he’s got a .637 ops in may) might be nothing more than overexposure to left-handed pitching. turns out that isn’t the case; per the splits section of david pinto’s Day by Day Database, duncan has only taken 6 plate appearances against lefties this month (with 1 hit). against right-handers, he’s hitting just .216 / .298 / .353 in 51 at-bats during may.

even so, it’s only 51 at-bats; in duncan’s 54 april at-bats against right-handed pitching, he hit .333 / .464 / .500. and taking the season as a whole, he’s got an .817 ops against right-handers. joe mather has had a hot month at memphis and he’s got some potential, but i wouldn’t bet on him to come right up and post an ops much (if any) better than .817.

i’ll grant that mather might be a better player than chris duncan right at this moment, because right at this moment duncan doesn’t look like an .800 ops hitter. he has taken some awful at-bats the last couple of weeks, chasing bad pitches and failing to make consistent contact (11 whiffs in his last 36 at-bats dating back to may 14). but i think a lot of people are overreacting to the slump. he came into the month with an .839 ops for the season and an ops of roughly .870 for his career; a few bad weeks and half the fan base is ready to dump the guy. (and they chide la russa for his impatience . . . .) duncan is a homegrown, cost-controlled, productive player in his 20s --- exactly the type of commodity this organization needs. bernie argues that a trip to memphis is in duncan’s (and the franchise’s) best interest --- the best way to preserve / restore his value. it’s worth noting that duncan is 0 for 14 coming off the bench this year; in his starts, he’s got a .282 / .389 / .436 line in 2008 --- an .826 ops. so it may be that the run of left-handed pitching, combined w/ the competition for at-bats w/ ludwick ankiel and schumaker, has depressed duncan’s line; maybe the lack of playing time has hurt him. and if that’s the case, maybe he would benefit from a month’s worth of regular abs in triple A, and come back with his swing and batting eye rehabilitated.

if that’s the rationale, then i can see the sense in sending duncan down. but as a short-term gambit, i don’t see any upside in exchanging duncan for mather. st louis outfielders already have the second-best aggregate ops in baseball, .868; the average nl outfield has an ops of .778. compare that production to st louis outfields of recent vintage:

stl ofnl ofops+
2008 .868 .778 112
2007 .771 .794 97
2006 .771 .795 97
2005 .828 .796 104
2004 .853 .811 105
2003 .891 .814 109

the cardinals haven’t had an outfield this productive since albert pujols was an outfielder. not even the 2004-05 sanders-edmonds-walker outfields were as potent, in the aggregate, as the current crop. adding joe mather to the mix isn’t going to make this a higher-scoring team; the cardinals don’t need an upgrade in the outfield. they need an infielder who can add a little sock.

which brings us to troy glaus, who has escaped the abuse heaped on duncan despite a nearly identical batting line (.760 ops for glaus, vs .743 for duncan). he has stopped piling up the doubles --- only 3 this month, vs 12 in april; during may glaus has just 5 extra-base hits (vs 4 for duncan) and is slugging .390 on the season. glaus’s home/road split is no longer as glaring as it was; he’s hitting much better at home but much worse on the road. i don’t know what to make of it. glaus’s batted-ball patterns remain right in line with his career averages, and his babip is normal; if he’s doing anything differently from previous years, it’s not apparent. the only number that’s off is his strikeout rate, which is abnormally low (18 percent this year, vs 26 percent in his career); has he cut down on his swing? a while back i expressed confidence that glaus would eventually progress to the mean ; it hasn’t happened so far. i got no answers; i am open to your thoughts.

but i'm not open to the joe-mather-as-3b argument that occasionally surfaces. mather has played 3b just 24 times as a professional  --- all of those games were in A ball. his fielding percentage in those 24 games was .917. he last played 3b in 2005, and that was for 2 games. can't play the position, period.

other items:

  • the astros apparently didn’t get the memo that you don’t mess around w/ breaking pitches against brian barton, you just blow fastballs past him. all 3 of barton’s hits the last couple of nights came against off-speed stuff --- the homer on tuesday and the single vs valverde on wednesday both came against sliders, and the single against wandy last night came against what looked like a changeup; 79 mph on the gun. i’m glad barton picked up a few hits; i was worried he was gonna get buried.
  • don’t underestimate the potential significance of joel pineiro’s health problems. the cardinals are contending for only one reason --- consistent starting pitching. if the rotation starts to get patchworky, they’re likely to fall off the pace. any / all of pineiro, looper, and lohse are capable of going south in a hurry . . . . .
  • but there may be help at triple A. mitch boggs threw a complete game yesterday to run his record to 5-1, 3.17. he has yielded just 3 homers in 65.1 innings and has a 2:1 gb/fb ratio. there’s also a guy down there named reyes with a 2.04 era . . . . as a team, memphis ranks 4th in the pcl with a 4.14 era. it’s a pitcher’s park, though . . . . .
  • am i the only one who hates the 1st-inning intentional walk? the cards did it tuesday night, with an "unintentional" walk to lance berkman; the ’stros did it last night vs pujols. seems like you’re just begging to fall way behind when you hand out free baserunners in the first inning, and both teams did just that . . . .

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Comments

Display:

You make a good point about Santa

LB, can Mather back up Glaus?or is there another option (Freese?) at Memphis?

I hope TLR will stay with the Ryan/Iz2 (RH) combo. Check out Bernie’s stats on the Cards’ record when Ryan gets 4ABs!

Finally give a shout out to Yadi’s improved offense this year. Maybe not much power but improved contact and some clutch RBIs.

by gocards62 on May 29, 2008 9:31 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

re: Duncan

We both noted the pattern of busting him inside. For his career prior to this season we’re talking about a guy who posted a .952 in 314 ABs in 2006, a .834 OPS in 435 ABs in 2006. Most, if not all, of the 2007 dropoff was attributed to the hernia. But what if we’re also missing the league adjusting to him as well maked by the injury.

Remember that this is a guy who posted over a .850 OPS in the minors just once in 6 years (some partial). We we’re all shocked when he overperformed his minor league numbers (remember the cries of nepotism)—maybe this is the realization that his minor league numbers were more representative than his 850 MLB at bats (where he’s been protected from righties and put in situations to succeed).

I was one of the people who wanted him playing full-time in 2006 to see if he was capable of hitting lefties and if his true talent level was really that good. Something’s off now—whether it’s a simple slump or something more troubling remains to be seen, imo.

by azruavatar on May 29, 2008 9:34 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i'd agree, it remains to be seen

whether this is just a slump or something more. we’re still talking about a very small sample size. and we’re also not talking about a complete collapse of his game - he still hits right-handers with reasonable success.

i think the jury is out. he looks lost out there right now, but i’ve seen ankiel look just as lost — indeed, he went through exactly the same thing earlier this year, a 52-ab stretch with a .599 ops (april 10 through april 27). he played his way out of it; maybe duncan will too.

by lboros on May 29, 2008 10:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah but Ankiel was allowed to play out of his funk........

Good players will perform if given enough opportunity…...I think it will be hard for Dunc to get on a role if he can not play consistently.

by ICbirdfan on May 29, 2008 10:45 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

as far as duncan's minor-league record

mather’s was even less distinguished than duncan’s until last season. through 2006, his best OPS at any level was .817 —in 200 at-bats at class A+. last year he tore up double A for half a season (while duncan was simultaneously tearing up big-league pitching) and then mather scuffled to a .772 OPS in the 2d half against AAA pitching while duncan was scuffling (injured) against big-leaguers. mather was hurt for most of april, and duncan was hitting pretty well that month anyway. so the entire case that mather is a better hitter than duncan is based on this month -- may 2008. it seems like a very short-term-oriented argument.

by lboros on May 29, 2008 12:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow

You got everyone going today lboros. Over 100 comments before noon central time, I’m having trouble keeping up.

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on May 29, 2008 12:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ankiel is a plus centerfielder

when he’s in a funk, he’s only killing the team on one side of the ball.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 6:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

And is there a level above the “plus” label? I’m think Ankiel might be a “plus plus” CFer.

I’m eagerly looking forward to the mid-season play-by-play defensive metrics to see where he ranks. To my untrained eye which has watched every game this year (-1 Saturday: thanks FOX, you suck), he’s been a solid A/A+ on defense in center field.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on May 29, 2008 6:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

An .850 OPS

would still make him one of our 3 best OFs, though. His OBP is legit—it’s the highest of our OF’s and he has all kinds of power. .950 is probably unrealistic but I don’t think .850 is and, if I’m right, that still puts him above Skip and, possibly, Ankiel.

by chuckb on May 29, 2008 9:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He still makes for a good bat

but he’s so bad defensively, that I’m not sure an .850 OPS warrants him stumbling around in LF.

by azruavatar on May 29, 2008 10:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, No, No, Az...

Haven’t you heard?

Duncan’s one of the very best left fielders in the league according to the last couple months of popular defensive metrics.

</sarcasm>

All in all, though, I’m still inclined to let him try to work out of it. His OBP is legit, and his MLB history suggests his potent bat was, as well. This current aberration does give the appearance of a temporary funk. Hopefully. If not, it’s gonna be really hard to trade him.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on May 29, 2008 5:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Duncan get "hated on" by the fans

because he looks so unprofessional in the outfield. and then when you top that with him looking like he doesn’t know what he’s doing at the plate when he’s in a slump, it just snowballs. it seems like he’s taking the flack from the fans to heart… which means he needs to buck up and show them he can hit. you’re right, Mather wouldn’t be that significant of an upgrade imo. Plus, Duncan is already our power bat off the bench. He’s just been flat-out outplayed by the other outfielders on this team.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 29, 2008 2:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

blind man bluff

watching him the other night, pitch recognition was his problem. swing was pathetic for sure, but the pitches he did not recognize early enough was, i believe, the cause.

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you haven't grasped the situation!

by sportsman on May 29, 2008 6:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nice read

you make a great point about glaus escaping the fan abuse, i think one of the reasons duncan receives so much heat is in how he looks at he plate. his last few at bats have been very ugly, it appears he is guessing (and guessing wrong) everytime at the plate.

if the cardinals were to promote reyes because of an injury, is that his last option or would we be able to send him back down?

by truemun12 on May 29, 2008 9:34 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

his option is good all year

he can go up and down to the team’s delight

by azruavatar on May 29, 2008 9:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I read about this rule yesterday.....

Is this the way it has always been, or were some changes made to it recently?

by SoonerfanTU on May 29, 2008 9:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Always been

Options are not a limitation on how often a person can be sent down but more a limitation on how long a player can be on your 40 man roster but not be on the active roster. A player can only spend 3 years on a 40 man roster and not on a 25 man roster before he is out of options. If you spend your first year going up and down that is 1 year, but if year 2 you spend the entire time on the active roster (or DL) before going up and down again in year 3 you still have only burnt 2 option years.

by StLHugo on May 29, 2008 1:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the abuse question

i’d further suggest that while it may not be a conscious thought on the part of the abusers, the existence of mather and other outfield options in contrast to the absence of viable 3b options may play a role in the quantity of abuse as well.

by sdesserman on May 29, 2008 12:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am starting to get worried too...

... about Glaus.

I like him phisically, he’s playing pretty steady good defense, but damn he seems to melt once at the plate, and expecially with RBI opportunities. To what I can judge, he seems to be over-trying, expecially he’s not capitalizing on pitcher’s mistakes (but this is, in my opinion, an illness that the whole lineup has). I really would like to see him more relaxed.

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on May 29, 2008 9:37 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

don't know if this has been brought up

but it seems like some hitters have trouble making the change from the AL to the NL

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 29, 2008 2:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oswalt

Seems like we’ve done well against him in the past, but I may be thinking of somebody else. Anybody know our record against him, or if anybody in the lineup really tears him up?

by SoonerfanTU on May 29, 2008 9:39 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

stats vs. Oswalt

BA/OPS/SLG
Ank .400/.400/400 10 ABs
Iz2 .400/.500/.400 5
AK .375/.444/.625 8
Skip .333/.455/.333 9
LaRue .308/.419/.308 26
Albert .299/.356/.507 67
Dunc .188/.278/.438 16
Miles .143/.143/.214 14
Ryan .125/.125/.250 8
Molina .100/.100/.100 10
Ludwick .000/.000/.000 3
Glaus .000/.000/.000 5

by gocards62 on May 29, 2008 10:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wow

LaRue is batting .308 against Oswalt with 26 ABs? Holy crap!

by Evilfrog on May 29, 2008 10:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Look at the SLG...

That’s 8 for 26 with 8 singles.

by Phizzle on May 29, 2008 11:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Better than nothing

Molina hasn’t done better with only a few less ABs.

by saladdays on May 29, 2008 11:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

right.

Who cares?!? It’s LaRue. The worst hitter in Baseball.@ For him to have .308 against a pitcher like Oswalt just amazes me.

@ I don’t care if im wrong on the worst hitter in Baseball stat.

by Evilfrog on May 29, 2008 1:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LaRue used to be a decent offensive catcher

he’s fallen off a cliff as he’s aged. It’s not rare for catchers to do that.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 6:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

bat kennedy cleanup!

go cards, o's, and phillies.

...boiler up.

by moboiler on May 29, 2008 11:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe he'll get this 3rd hit of '08 tonight!

I was all ready to joke about Porn Stache when I heard he was excited that he bats well against Oswalt, because I was thinking that meant he was batting like .050 against him or something, the fact that he’s hitting .308 with 26abs really ruins all my fun :(

His porn stache is still pretty awesome though

by soty987 on May 29, 2008 7:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Guess not, on the team success part.....

Including the postseason, Oswalt is 11-5 with a 2.91 ERA in 28 career games against the Cardinals. He’s 7-0 with a 1.56 ERA in 12 outings against them – all quality starts – since Sept. 27, 2005.

by SoonerfanTU on May 29, 2008 11:32 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Larry, that's what options are for.

If you have a young guy who has shown some signs of talent but is struggling badly - and make no mistake, Dunc is struggling BADLY - it does nobody any favors to keep letting him fail. Rather, find out what’s wrong and fix it if it can be fixed, under conditions that don’t hurt the team. Short trips back to AAA happen all the time, to more “talented” players than Duncan. To me the only uncertainty is whether Dunc really has .850-OPS-level “talent” to begin with (right, AZ), and therefore whether a demotion and some instruction will actually “fix” him. But that is certainly not a reason to keep him in the Show when sound alternatives are available.

by StanTheManFan on May 29, 2008 9:41 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

sample size

i’m not convinced that duncan is “broken” so badly that he needs to go down to AAA. a month into the season he was hitting .290 with an obp above .400 and a .450ish slugging pct - figures very close to his career norms. 50 at-bats later, everybody has decided that he can’t hit. i think that’s a premature conclusion.

by lboros on May 29, 2008 10:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the downside of sending Duncan down?

I just don’t see the downside in sending C. Duncan down. A guy like Ankiel, one can argue we miss his defense. But for a one-dimensional player like Duncan, when he can’t perform that one dimension-mash right handers-houston, we got a problem. How does it harm Duncan or the team for him to go to Memphis until he against starts mashing right handers? If he needs to fix the swing due to bad habits acquired while injured last season, then going to AAA makes all the sense in the world.

The plus for the team is they get to take a look at a hot power bat from a guy who can actually play the OF (Mather).

by jjray on May 29, 2008 11:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i don't want my players thinking

that every 3-week cold spell is grounds for demotion. you gotta let guys struggle sometimes and see how they respond to the challenge. you learn about your players that way. if there are doubts about duncan, the way to answer those doubts is to keep throwing him out there and see what he does.

the same principle that applies to anthony reyes should apply to duncan. when reyes struggles, people argue (rightly) that he needs a chance to make adjustments, pitch through his mistakes, and establish himself. when he gets yanked out of the rotation after 2 or 3 bad turns, we all complain that this is no way to develop players. i feel the same way about duncan. he’s young and he’s got talent, but we’ll never find out the limits of that talent unless we’re prepared to ride out his slumps. this current slump is not that big a deal - it has lasted 57 at-bats, and his OPS is .637 in that span. i think it’s being blown out of proportion.

by lboros on May 29, 2008 11:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm with you 100% LB.

But I will say that we are not a team that is so good that we can afford a lot of that practice. We need to win.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 29, 2008 12:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think one of his main points though

is that our outfield can afford to see Duncan get his swing back

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 29, 2008 2:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At the cost of Ank, Barton, Luddy, and Schumaker getting DESERVED at-bats?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 29, 2008 2:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

who's to say when it will happen

not saying he deserves to get as much playing time as Ank and Lud either. he’s definitely at the bottom of the list, but still. not a bad #5

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 29, 2008 2:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

While slumping he is still as good as Skippy

A slumping Duncan has an ops of .743

Skppy has .740
Barton has .740

Duncan stil hits right handers ok even with the slump. Its pretty clear who should sit first vs RHP, its not Duncan.

by DriverZn on May 29, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What about defense?

Did you see the Dodger game last Sunday? Would Skippy or Barton have let that ball drop out in LF? Probably not. But Dunc did and it cost us the game.

by jdubya on May 29, 2008 4:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He didn't "cost us the game"

yeah, he should have caught it, but letting that ball drop cost us one out and put a man on first base. It wasn’t like there were two outs and the bases loaded in a game we were winning; there was no one on base when it happened, so the damage was quite minimal when looked at rationally. Even if duncan caught that ball, we still had to score and hold the lead; our win expectancy before the “single” was just ~36% (and 28.5% after).

It took a wild pitch and a double/possible triple down the line to “lose the game”, and if juan pierre bunts for a hit instead of a failed sacrifice after the error, we still lose the game.

And besides, the only reason we were even in extra innings was because skip schumaker didn’t catch a catchable fly ball earlier in the game, allowing a run to score. That play was at least as culpable for the loss as Duncan’s misjudgment of that fly ball. That, and Skip’s 0-4 with two strikeouts and a GIDP from the leadoff spot.

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on May 29, 2008 5:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Is this really a 3 week cold spell...

or was April the illusion. Since July of last year, Duncan is being outhit by Miles. I know he was injured but if it was so bad he should have gone to the training staff and admitted he was hurting. Either way, he looks totally lost at the plate right now and with his bad defense he has become a liability. The Cards cannot give any games away this year as both the Cubs and Astros are good. I would love to see Duncan in the lineup regularly mashing RH pitching but he cannot continue to struggle to get right at the big league level.

by indakind on May 29, 2008 12:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

cold spell

The trainers said Dunc can play if he wanted last year…. He had no chance of hurting him self anymore.. They basically said it just depends on how much pain he can stomach. Dunc played as long as he could and I seem to remember him shutting it down after the zona series and when the Cards fell out of contention..

He was hurt so I don’t place much on the 2nd half stats of 2007

by ICbirdfan on May 29, 2008 12:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not sure that it's Duncan's cold spell that should send him down

But maybe its a result of Ludwick becoming a everyday player. Duncan really needs AB’s but there are not any with the big team. Send him down let him play every day in the AAA OF. Come next year the team will need him to be the best player possible, whether he’s starting or he’s traded away.

by Stan and Slaughter on May 29, 2008 12:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i agree with benching too quickly

chris has barely produced in a season plus, his only value is when he hits
evidenced by the tiffie fly ball that dropped
we have outfielders who can outperform him in any facet of the game minus power even when hes going well

id rather see his ABs go to barton due to the upgrade in D

Come on 2009!

by benstl on May 29, 2008 1:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If the Cards want to be serious about contending

in the Central or for the wild card, they can’t afford to have guys like Duncan and Kennedy get tons of playing time to try and work their way out of long slumps. We have to try and field the best team every night.
If the Cards were paying Duncan 8-10 million a season I could see playing him as much as possible because of the investment they have in him…but he is not being paid big money, so in my opinon he is replaceable at this point. Kennedy is being paid quite a bit but since he has not put up good numbers for a long period of time it is getting to the point of cutting your losses with him and finding someone else. If the Cards are in the buisness to win and to contend then they need to do what the need to do to field a better team without these guys.

by KYCards on May 29, 2008 1:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's a good thing

That we are in the middle of a rebuilding year and will be able to afford to leave guys at the AAA level to devolp instead of trading them away for a short at maybe a playoff birth.

by Evilfrog on May 29, 2008 2:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would agree with the "rebuilding year" but

since we are only a game and a half out of the Central at the end of May and at the top for the Wild Card position, I think we are getting to the point of re-thinking if this is a re-building year or not. If this team has a chance for the playoffs (which they do as of now) it might be time to re-think some things.

by KYCards on May 29, 2008 2:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

I will add in that we have some pieces of value to trade that may not hurt the team in the long run anyway.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 29, 2008 2:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fair point. Counter-points:

Point 1: We can agree that we do not wish to encourage our players to be constantly looking over their shoulders, however, this is the MLB. It’s not a developmental league. Players should be accountable. Duncan hasn’t hit for a sustained period for quite some time (stretching into last season). Yes, there was the injury but performance is performance.

Point 2: The team has to weigh cost-benefit. Any psychological benefit to one C. Duncan for giving him the long rope is outweighed by the people we are taking the ABs away from—Ludwick sat 2 out of 3 games recently. C. Duncan sucks in the field and has, in fact, hurt the team with his fielding recently. When Ankiel struggles he can still help the team in the field. Duncan is the reverse. Ergo, a slump by Duncan is more detrimental to the team and should be treated with a quicker hook than a slump by someone like Ankiel or Skip.

Point 3: C. Duncan isn’t an established play for whom a separate standard should apply. Reyes got demoted because the team lost confidence in him. Skip got demoted early last season for the same reason (it was quick hook with Skip). C. Duncan should face the same standard.

by jjray on May 29, 2008 3:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

counter-counter points

point 1 — i do think duncan’s being held accountable for his performance - he is losing playing time. he came into the season as the most experienced, best-established outfielder on the team; he now ranks 4th in at-bats among the outfielders, because other guys are playing better. accountability is being enforced. it’s up to duncan to respond to the challenge by earning his playing time back.

point 2 —i agree that ludwick should not be sitting -—not for duncan, not for ankiel, not for anybody. i’m not advocating a longer rope for duncan because of psychological factors; i’m advocating a longer rope for him because he has an established level of ability in the big leagues. the ability’s still there for 25-hr power; it’s not manifesting right now, but it hasn’t gone away.

point 3 —i hope they never jerk any player around the way they jerked around reyes -—coach’s son or not. as for schumaker, you can’t compare those situations; at the tine he got demoted last year (may 9) schumaker had an ops of .556, or 200 points below duncan’s current level, and he had barely over 100 career at-bats. duncan’s established level of ability is much higher than schumaker’s was then.

by lboros on May 29, 2008 4:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Circular logic

i do think duncan’s being held accountable for his performance – he is losing playing time. <<
lboros, I like your analysis and writing style but we’ll agree to disagree on this one. The argument is circular in my view. Duncan lost his hitting groove due to injury last season. He’s working his way through it at present. Give him time. But his playing time has been cut due to poor performance. Meaning he has even less ABs spread out over greater intervals with which to find his groove again. .... that’s not the way a hitter re-establishes what worked for him in past seasons. It’s done by playing every day. But Chris Duncan can’t play everyday on the Cardinals because he sucks right now so logic dictates his chances of recovering his form are very low and are rapidly diminishing. It’s in the best interest of the Cardinals and C. Duncan to take a turn in AAA. If he mashes down there, wonderful. Bring him right back up.

by jjray on May 29, 2008 5:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

where does it say that he can't get his stroke back playing part-time?

role players have to learn to stay sharp getting only 15 ab a week — and duncan is, and always has been, a role player since he came to the big leagues. he’s never started regularly against lhp, and he probably never will; he has always been lifted in the late innings for defensive reasons. he entered the season as a 21-ab-a-week player; now he’s a 15-ab-a-week player. if he starts to show signs of life, the abs will come.

in my mind it’s a measure of how far the cardinals have come as a team that chris duncan — regarded by many as the team’s 2d-best hitter coming into the season — is currently their 4th outfielder. he has looked very weak of late, and people are having a strong reaction to that; if he continues to look this feeble for another 50 at-bats, i might be convinced that he’s better off going to triple A to work himself out of the funk. but it still seems like a premature decision to me.

by lboros on May 29, 2008 5:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

50 ABS

OK, we’ll revisit it in a month because it might take him that long to get 50 ABs. Really, I think you’ve jumped the shark. The point is that it is much, much easier to get back into a groove and find one’s stroke playing every day as opposed to pulling splinters out of the rear end. What’s best for Duncan long-term? Go back to AAA and fix his swing. But a month of this won’t kill the Cardinals although it will be tough on C. Duncan. We’ll see how it works out.

by jjray on May 29, 2008 6:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My prediction:

0-3 with a walk and 2 Ks, then he’s pulled for a late-inning substitution in left.

Prove me wrong, Chris!

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on May 29, 2008 6:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

reguardless of who we think should play

whoever gets in there has our support…go cards

i take your signatures and use them as away messages

by ihavebadknees on May 29, 2008 7:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dunc

There are several things that Duncan does that may irritate the most loyal Card fan:

—He ALWAYS swings at the first pitch. If I were in a big slump offensively I would maybe get a few good looks out there. Make the pitcher work a little before popping out to third base.

—He is an adventure in the field. Even though his stats may be average, he just doesn’t look comfortable.

—He is taking time from other more deserving outfielders. I hate seeing Ludwick on the bench in place of Dunc.

I don’t want to bash Duncan – I wish him the best and hope he can get things back together. He may be a better fit in the AL, though.

by BB20 on May 29, 2008 9:41 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

Probably the most annoying thing he does…

"because at the end of the day they still are the Chicago Cubs"

by rockin the red on May 29, 2008 11:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK who cares about the tobacco......

Carp chews
Ank chews
Dunc Chews
Lud chews
Frankling Chews
Tyler Johnson Chews
Glaus Chews
Lohse Chews

Come one a lot of the Cards chew…..Hell I have not even named all the chewers.

by ICbirdfan on May 29, 2008 11:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't forget Dunc's dad.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 29, 2008 11:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh yes senior likes his tobacco.......

I don’t really care if players chew to be honest. Ludwick quite possibly has larger dips than Duncan does… Wow Luddy’s lip is out there some games.

by ICbirdfan on May 29, 2008 11:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was brought up

and I think it’s annoying. I’m not holding it against Duncan. Didn’t mean to upset anyone.

"because at the end of the day they still are the Chicago Cubs"

by rockin the red on May 29, 2008 11:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Now there are chewers

and there are chewers and Duncan is a messy chewer.

by ridgesee on May 29, 2008 11:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He chews about as gracefully as he plays.

Do you think he broke a lot of dishes and spilled a lot of milk as a child?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 29, 2008 12:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Looking on the bright side . ..

as a kid he probably never ripped the wings from a fly – because he could not catch one.

by akaitori on May 29, 2008 3:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

http://www.instantrimshot.com/

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on May 29, 2008 5:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure Ank is chewing sunflower seeds and not tobacco

not that it particularly matters.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 6:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And gum

I’m pretty sure Ank doesn’t chew the backy. I think that’s gum.

(Side note: was it Ank that blew the bubble once right when fielding a ball? I know someone on our team did…)

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on May 29, 2008 6:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe we are looking at it wrong?

If we have a pretty solid outfield besides for Dunc, then what is wrong with a bench player with a little pop? So he isn’t a career everyday player, who cares!! Neither was eduardo perez, but Tony found a way to use him. Maybe what Duncan should be focusing on is how to be prepared to pinch hit, and fill in on starters off days. Sending him down for Mather only creates a problem for our other outfielders. If you bring Mather up you have to play him. who do you sit then? I think we needed one of the 5 outfielders to be less productive, so we don’t have to rotate 5 guys in and out.

Thoughts?

by hoofhearted-pujols on May 29, 2008 12:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

I’m liking him as a power bat fill in guy off the bench, to complement the speedy Barton. I think that it’s clear that the main problems are hoping the starting pitching keeps it up (and alleviating that with bringing up guys from Memphis in a timely manner) and of course, the middle infield issue, which I think can be alleviated by playing Ryan at either SS or 2B depending on if Izturis is playing or not.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 29, 2008 2:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I, too, hate the 1st inning intentional walk

I don’t care how well Berkman or Pujols is hitting. It’s a recipe for disaster. It’s interesting to note that both teams who offered up the walks gave up big first innings and lost the game. It’s not the only reason but you’re staring straight in the face of a crooked number and both teams obliged.

As for Mather/Duncan, I, too, see no point in bringing up Mather to have him get 10 PA’s per week. He may as well stay at AAA and play every day. There’s no reason to get impatient w/ him and he’s not a 3B and he’s not a 2B. 1B—yes. Corner OF, I think so but nowhere else.

I think Duncan’s problem, as much as anything, has been the lack of consistent PA’s. The other OF’s have been playing so well, and he’s limited in that he can’t really play vs. lefties, that his PA’s have been very sporadic. I’ll go back to what I offered up a few weeks ago re: the current OF. I think the regular OF should be Duncan, Ankiel, and Ludwick. Skip and Barton should be the 4th and 5th OF’s, respectively. Skip’s done well so far but the other 3 offer more offensively than Skip. Additionally, many have suggested trading Duncan but there’s no way the team can trade him the way he’s playing right now. A demotion to AAA won’t increase his value and it won’t help the team—at least not in the short run. If it takes playing everyday at Memphis to get his rhythm and confidence back, then so be it but I think he should be playing pretty much every day w/ the big club.

by chuckb on May 29, 2008 9:49 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hate walking the bases loaded in ANY situation.

It puts way too much pressure on the pitcher to throw strikes, and the hitter knows he is going to see a healthy diet of fastballs.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 29, 2008 10:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

especially

when there were no outs, if there had been 2 outs, i could have understood it a little more

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on May 29, 2008 12:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not to mention that I think that there is hardly a thing more encouraging to a team's offense

than walking in a run. I’m still waiting for the IBB Pujols to score a run play. It will elate me.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 6:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The question shouldn't be Mather for Duncan, IMO

It should be Mather for Skip. Skip simply doesn’t have the ability to hit enough to justify regular occupation of a corner outfield spot on a decent team. As long as we have one everyday lefty-hitting center fielder with the big club already and another one due to arrive by next year, then Skip is a poor fit for this roster. If you trade Skip for whatever you can get then you can have an outfield of Ankiel, Ludwick, and a Mather/Duncan platoon. You then have to decide what you are going to do at leadoff, maybe you just live with Ryan there until a better solution can be found. I just can’t believe that playing Skip in a corner most of the time just because you have to have a leadoff hitter when his best-case OPS over a full season is probably .775 or so is the optimal solution.

by mikedallas45 on May 29, 2008 9:51 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

am I the only one that thinks Skip would be a decent fit for the Marlins

while Cameron Maybin gets some seasoning and then as a reaosnable backup afterward.

by azruavatar on May 29, 2008 10:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe

Right now they’re running Jacque Jones out there against righties, not pretty.

by mikedallas45 on May 29, 2008 10:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What's wrong with Skip?

When’s the last time the Cards had a leadoff guy post 100 runs? I think Vina was close a couple of times. Skip fits well into that leadoff role. It’s just that he takes up a spot in the field that would normally be held by a power guy. If he was a middle infielder we would be singing praises.

by BB20 on May 29, 2008 10:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but he's not a middle infielder

and how many runs he scores isn’t a good indicator of his value.

by azruavatar on May 29, 2008 10:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

or if he were the centerfielder

which he might be for some other team.

Bottom line is that Skip is establishing himself as a major leaguer—a centerfielder with a .350 OBP is good enough to help a lot of teams. But he unquestionably will be redundant for THIS team once Rasmus makes his way up. Skip at some point probably gets dealt, and I don’t mind Moz holding his fire until he can cut a good dea.

by DCGreg on May 29, 2008 11:03 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You would think that Skip, Duncan and Reyes

would be a pretty damn attractive package for some team looking to unload a good but not awesome veteran before his walk year.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 6:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But we have a new GM

Thats not quite as vet happy as the old one. We need a 2b or SS that can hit. Whatever the trade, thats what we need in return.

by DriverZn on May 29, 2008 6:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I understand

What I’m essentially saying is this could be the starting offer for some vet 2B/SS in their walk year. You’d probably need to sub one of those three for a real prospect to get a real MI that can hit, like Brian Roberts or whatever, but that could at least be the general idea.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 7:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The justification is moot

if you have a power hitting center fielder.

sure, the generalization is that you want power from the corners – but that assumes you’re not getting power from the center fielder.

by sdrone on May 29, 2008 10:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I believe the word you are looking for there is "mute".

:)

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 29, 2008 10:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was a tongue-in-cheek reference.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 29, 2008 11:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is the most dumbest thread ever

nailed it!

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 29, 2008 12:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

stupidest

discussion ever, irregardless of it’s hilarity

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 29, 2008 12:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is MY stomping grounds people

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on May 29, 2008 1:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

my apologies

:-)

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 29, 2008 1:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

U don no wat u got in2 lolz

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on May 29, 2008 1:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You dubbed one “the dumbest” on Sunday or Sat only a few days back…which one IS now the dumbest. I remember this one diary that would be in the running…..; )

by cardschinmusic on May 30, 2008 2:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I disagree

Getting above-average production from your CF is no reason to settle for below-average production from your RF, IF there is a better option available. I think that Mather/Duncan will give you much better offense than Skip, granted you take a defensive hit but you need a lot o defense to make up for an .100-.150 difference in OPS.

by mikedallas45 on May 29, 2008 11:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think the argument boils down to a lineup construction issue.

Skip fits a more tradional lineup, which begs for speed and OPB from the leadoff spot. Duncan provides the OBP, but Skip provides the speed, while playing much better defense. Duncan, OTOH, provides for a more powerful lineup that really hearkens back to the A’s of a few years ago. Lots of walks followed (hopefully) by lots of 3-run homers.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 29, 2008 11:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In practical terms, I believe you are correct

Mo probably just can’t sell Tony on the idea of doing without Skip since we don’t have a very good leadoff option at SS or 2B. That’s why I’m coming around on the idea of going after Brian Roberts if we stay in contention, you could bat him leadoff and then let the bashing begin.

by mikedallas45 on May 29, 2008 11:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Skip has 4 SB's

that puts him tied for 37th in the NL behind such notables as Jayson Werth and Eugenio Velez and tied w/ noted burners Cesar Izturis and Adam Kennedy. Skip has very little value as a basestealer. He has some defensive value over Duncan, but not enough to make up for the power difference, when Dunc’s hitting homers.

by chuckb on May 29, 2008 11:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But he is faster.

You are nitpicking now. LaRussa does not want to steal and open 1b with Pujols in the hole. But there is no way you honestly believe that CDunc can run as fast as Skippy.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 29, 2008 12:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wouldn't be so sure of that...

Eckstreem. Duncan’s pretty large and lumbery, but he covers some serious ground.

by cardzfanbub on May 29, 2008 1:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

unless

its a lazy fly ball to left.

j/k

I really do want to see him get turned around. I’d rather see it done in AAA though.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on May 29, 2008 2:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would certainly hate to be in his way.

Him running into someone may result in a pile of arms, legs, and chewing tobacco flying in every direction!

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 29, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and don't forget the horrible pseudo-neckbeard

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 6:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is the manager as much as anything thoug

Tony doesn’t use the straight steal very much at all, and he’s been using it less over the years, at least to my naked eye.

The Cardinals were 28th in SB and 14th in CS in 2007 (that percentage is so horrible, a lot of those must be failed hit and runs)
25th and 21st in 2006 and
14th and 14th in 2005

They did well in 2004 back when they still had Tony Womack batting leadoff, but I think Tony’s loathe to do a straight steal without someone with spectacular speed and an ability to get a jump, like Womack or the Rickey.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 6:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can also solve this problem

by setting up the outfield as Lud – Skip – Rick from left to right. There – now you’re getting your power from the corners.

I guess my point is that our issues aren’t in the outfield, and sending Duncan down/bringing Mather up doesn’t solve anyhing. Would it make our outfield offensive stats even better? Possibly. ONLY possibly – we don’t know how Mather will hit in the majors. But it doesn’t solve any problem. There’s no problem to solve.

maybe we need a late innings offensive replacement for Rick?

by sdrone on May 29, 2008 11:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What's wrong with...

Getting power from all 3 outfield spots, if it’s available? That’s helps to make up for the offensive black holes we have at 2B and SS. It’s not a matter of solving a problem, it’s a matter of scoring as many runs as possible given the options we have available, which is a good thing, right?

by mikedallas45 on May 29, 2008 11:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Barton?

what about the Cardinaut? we still have to find PT for him.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on May 29, 2008 11:43 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

professor dreadsocks

is not too worried about playing time, because he is well aware that time is just one of up to 11 possible dimensions which may exist in our universe. as long as he can exploit at least 7-8 of the remaining ones he should be fine.

by mattybobo on May 29, 2008 1:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In my book,

he’s completely free to hit the ball so hard that it reaches energies that would make the ball in flight a test of string theory.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 6:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Duncan should get ABs at Skip's expense, not Luddy's

I thinkn the fan abuse would be much less if Duncan wasn’t taking ABs away from Ludwick. Sorry Skip, but getting ABs for Duncan is more important than your meager contribution.

I would be happy with Ryan, Miles or Izturis batting first if that means Ludwick plays everyday. I think this nonsense about Ludwick getting “over exposed” is just a bunch of crap.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 29, 2008 12:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Iz2 as leadoff...

may not be too bad an idea for this team. He is still sporting a .359 OBP and has been a successful basestealer for what it’s worth.

by cardzfanbub on May 29, 2008 1:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Duncan Option

I’ve got $20 Duncan asks to see the trainer before heading to AAA if that’s what happens. He’ll get checked out and hope for the DL so he can get his major league pay while taking a sabatical. Just saying, I’m not so sure a demotion will necessarily result in immediate work on his swing at AAA.

by jomfa on May 29, 2008 10:06 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Doesn't he get the major league pay anyway?

I thought everyone on the 40-man roster (which he will stay on while at AAA) got payed major league salary.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 29, 2008 10:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Super2

Even if his pay is the same while in AAA, service time is important. Time spent on the DL counts as ML service time.

by jjray on May 29, 2008 11:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

so does time in the minors, if you are on the 40-man roster.

I have been led to believe that time on the 40-man roster is what matters for MLB service time, no matter if you are playing in AAA or at The Show.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 29, 2008 12:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No

No major league pay and no service time:

http://groups.msn.com/BaseballForum/mlbgeneraltransactionrules.msnw

—-——-
Also, despite it being a major league contract, the minimum for players on the 40-man roster and not the 25-man roster is $37,000 plus collective cost of living increases since 1999.

...

Service time is accrued for every day spent in the majors. If a player spends 20 days or less of the season on optional assignment, the player is given service time for the entire season. This is to prevent various shenanigans if calling up a player at the end of April to buy an extra year of rights.
—-—-
-—-—

by mikedallas45 on May 29, 2008 1:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wish he would go on the dl w/

an “injury”, a la izzy, and take a trip out to Big Mac land for some hitting lessons.

"Back in the day when I played, a pitcher had 3 pitches: a fastball, a curveball, a slider, a changeup and a good sinker pitch." - Mike Shannon

by nomar34 on May 29, 2008 12:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

where is the downside?

it’s the most productive outfield st louis has had in years. i don’t understand the dissatisfaction.

by lboros on May 29, 2008 10:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is it really though?

I know Jimmy Edmonds trended down the past few years, but Duncan was a little better, and Juan put up decent numbers. Taguchi was at least as good as Barton/Skip, right?

Just thinking out loud here.

by SoonerfanTU on May 29, 2008 10:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

see the table in the post above

it’s only 2 months, but based on the current ###s they are producing more than any stl outfield since 2003

by lboros on May 29, 2008 10:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

I am very impressed by our outfield. don’t understand all the negativity

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 29, 2008 2:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The dissatisfaction is with Duncan

and it’s perfectly understandable. He hasn’t hit lefthanders and now he looks just as bad against righthanders. If he isn’t contributing with his bat, he isn’t contributing at all. In fact he’s hurting the team not only with the at bats he gives away but with his atrocious defense, as exemplified by that disastrous double switch in Los Angeles. He needs at bats to straighten himself out, but he’s been so bad the team can’t afford to let him have them. That’s what options are for: let him take his swings at Memphis for a while, and let’s see what Mather can do. Why should Mather be blocked by Duncan? Mather is even more “cost-controlled” than Duncan, and Duncan is hardly so well-established that he should be immune from the Memphis shuttle. Has there ever been a worse full-count hitter than Duncan, by the way? He’s pretty good at working the count to 3-2, but then you can be virtually certain that he’ll chase or take strike three.
I also have to question Larry’s assumption that Mather can’t fill in at third. Leaving aside the obvious rejoinder that he can certainly do it better than Duncan in any case, I find it hard to believe that he has played only 24 games at third in the minors. Do those figures include short-season ball, where I seem to recall third was where he mainly played?

by Mike G on May 29, 2008 11:45 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you're right about mather's playing 3b in short-season ball

checking a 2nd source (baseballcube) i learn that mather did play 107 games at 3b in rookie ball in 2001-02. but his fielding percentage was below .900 - which explains why they stopped playing him at 3b. he couldn’t handle the position, so they moved him to a less demanding spot on the diamond.

if we do want mather to play 3d base, then the place for him to (re-)learn the position would be triple A, not in the big leagues.

by lboros on May 29, 2008 12:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As well as Mather is hitting, shouldn't

we be talking about Barden as a call-up, given the MI and 3B offensive problems?

by MdRedbirdFreak on May 29, 2008 12:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A big Wrong On 3-2 Counts

This year, Duncan has had 21 PAs will full counts.

He’s walked 12 times, struck out 6 times, and is 1-3 in the other three PAs, with the 1 being a HR.

So while his BA with a 3-2 count is .111, his OBP is .619 and his SLG is .444, for a 1.053 OPS.

While we’re at it, he has 22 PAs where he made contact on the first pitch (out of 146 total PAs, or 15% of the time); he’s 4 for 21 (the other PA was a sac fly). As a team, the Cards make contact on a first pitch 12.6% of the time, so Duncan is slightly higher than the team (if Duncan contacted the first pitch at the team average, he’d have 18 PAs with first swing contact, or 4 less).

In 2007 he was 16 for 50 swinging at the first pitch (.320), and 22 for 44 (.500) swinging at the first pitch in 2006.

So the 2008 issue is in line with his other issues; he just isn’t hitting as he had in the past.

Dave

by SydneyDave on May 29, 2008 4:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

That should be 21 PAs WITH full counts.

By the way, Ludwick has 18 PAs with full counts. Ludwick has 6 SOs and 6 BBs and is 1 for 12, so he has a .083 BA and a .389 OBP.

So, for this year at least, there is at least one worse full count hitter than Duncan—the guy that everyone keeps saying should be playing instead of him.

Dave

by SydneyDave on May 29, 2008 4:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

is Dave Duncan

from Sydney? ;-)

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 29, 2008 4:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The downside is that when one of those

5 productive guys goes into a slump, you can’t afford to give him PT to “play through it.” I think there is a cost involved when you waste the services of a player that’s good enough to be a regular or semiregular by keeping him on the pine all the time. And because our MI (and lately 3B) is so anemic, you can’t afford to do anything but put the best guys in the OF every day. Consequently Dunc sits and rusts and his trade value (which is really what should be uppermost in the Cardinals’ minds, IMHO) can only suffer.

by MdRedbirdFreak on May 29, 2008 12:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Which is the real problem for Mo

I believe Mo (based upon his chat at the P-D) is looking at a possible trade involving Duncan. But, like Reyes, if he isn’t playing, and playing well, the Cardinals would be selling low. It’s a conundrum for both LaRussa and the front office.

by Red in Chicago on May 29, 2008 2:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would say something that my mother used to say.....

“You made your bed, no go lie in it.”

I’m tired of having to comment on this situation….I know, I need to stop. Part of the reason they will never get anything for Reyes is their own unprofessionalism …..he is forever in the buy low catagory. They need to look for, and accept, someone’s own failed prospect/failed pitcher that might benefit from a change of scenery. There are plenty of players like that out there-you just have to look for them….....

Mr. LaRussa said last off season he did not want Chris Duncan traded. Do you think Mr. Mozeliak is willing to trade a player Mr. LaRussa doesn’t want traded? I don’t…..

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 29, 2008 5:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll even give you an example here

Matt Chico for Reyes. Aaron Heilman for Reyes. Zach Duke for Reyes. Deals like that could possibly help both the team and the player. No one ever listens to me though…..

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 29, 2008 6:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But Reyes is rebuilding his value in AAA

far more than he possibly could out of the bullpen in St. Louis (especially given the way he was playing). Perhaps they don’t want to run the risk of him having one bad start at the MLB level, so they are waiting for a time that they can call him up to stay, rather than sending him up and down I-55 over and over again. Unless Piñeiro goes down for something more long term, or Looper starts to get shelled more often, there really isn’t a place for him in the rotation right now, especially if they’re planning on reinserting Carp there at the ASB.

So perhaps it’s most prudent to leave him in Memphis, where he’s pitching well, and to allow him to get his confidence back.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 7:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not sure if they can insert Carp into the rotation at the ASB

We’re only like a month and a half away from it. I haven’t heard anything about him throwing off of a mound or anything like that. Seems to me that it’s a longshot for Carp to come back this season, as much as I hate to say it…

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 29, 2008 7:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're probably right

But that’s what they’re sayin’, and if that’s their plan, regardless of whether it’s realistic or not, there’s no room for Reyes in the St. Louis rotation right now (unless they trade Looper, Lohse or Piñeiro)

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 7:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

carp's in jupiter, FL

He threw to hitters on Monday and is reported to be “about a month away” from starting his rehab assignment (which would put it around the end of June). So he could theoretically make it back by the ASB, though end of July is a better guess. Assuming he doesn’t have a “setback” ;)

link

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on May 29, 2008 7:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I had not heard that

I’ll believe it when I see it though

Why hasn’t more been made of his progress? I hadn’t heard anything.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 29, 2008 7:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

mo said, in one of his chats,

that he was afraid it would jinx him if he talked about it, or something along those lines ;)

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on May 29, 2008 7:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Duncan, Skip. Mather, Barton

outfield matter is too confusing for my feeble mind to conjure up a solution for. (hope ending the sentence in a preposition doesn’t upset the English geeks here)

Two things that do bother me though that might evolve into a problem :One is Ankiel’s love for a high fastball, which he can’t hit. If you get 2 strikes on him’ you don’t have to throw another strike, just feed him a fastball about sholder high and he will go for it. The other: Glaus throws everything from third base side armed, often with a fade toward the first base line. I am afraid he is going to get Pujols hurt. Nobody else has commented on this, but I just don’t like Glaus’ arm.

by ridgesee on May 29, 2008 10:29 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

prepositions are not words you should end sentences with

n/m

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 29, 2008 10:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

correction:

“for the problem” There I gave you an object and threw in an adjective to modify it. OK

by ridgesee on May 29, 2008 10:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That

is the kind of hairsplitting up with which I cannot put!

by Upset on May 29, 2008 11:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm glad

somebody got it. A poor sense of humor is the kind of stuff I can’t put up with.

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 29, 2008 12:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Somewhere, crying Yoda is….

by cardschinmusic on May 30, 2008 2:30 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

to foolishly split infinitives is your future.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 7:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What about Garcia for a couple of starts?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 29, 2008 10:45 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Garcia

He’s got the potential to be a 2-3 starter down the road, I don’t want him getting the Reyes treatment of getting jerked up and down between Memphis and Stl all the time. Once he comes up, I want him to stay up, don’t mess with his head. He could also probably do with some more time at AAA, he has what, 4 AAA starts so far?

by mikedallas45 on May 29, 2008 10:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I see your point.

But, we can’t get gunshy just because of one failed experiment. Garcia is a different person than ARey. As an aside, it didn’t seem to bother Clayton Kershaw to get called up and make a spot start.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 29, 2008 10:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Was Haren or Thompson treated better?

For whatever reason TLR / Duncan make up their mind about a pitcher very quickly and after that point there doesn’t appear to be a way to change it.

by DriverZn on May 29, 2008 2:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All 3 got the shaft

But Wainwright, McClellan, and Jimenez seem to get all the rope in the world.

Wainwright showed he is a good pitcher, but he struggled in the first part of 07.

Haren, never really struggled and came up big in the playoffs when he had chances.

Jiminez, WTF?

by DriverZn on May 29, 2008 2:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wainwright isn't really analogous to anyone else

He got a lot of rope in the first half of ‘07 because he saved the flippin World flipping Series. He showed more balls in the entire playoffs than nearly anyone else in recent memory. It’s not a surprise they didn’t mess with him when he was still functional and making the transition back to starting. He earned his rope.

Jimenez, who knows, he’s definitively not good yet keeps getting chances.

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on May 29, 2008 3:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So a save is more important than winning game 1?

Its not like Reyes or Haren came up short in the playoffs either.

by DriverZn on May 29, 2008 3:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Carp was hurt too................

Wainer had to pitch there were not really anyother options….

I don’t get what you are arguing?

by ICbirdfan on May 29, 2008 4:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Reyes

Was given 20 starts in 07.

by Evilfrog on May 29, 2008 5:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Reyes struggled through 90% of that year

Wainwright didn’t.

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on May 29, 2008 5:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Very true

Do people rally need to make Reyes- Wainwright comparisons? I like Reyes, but c’mon.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 29, 2008 6:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think people just remember when

they were both in Memphis, and Reyes was considered the better prospect. It may still come true. Players fortunes rise and ebb a lot, like when Carp was considered the better prospect than Halliday, and then Halliday became a world beater, and THEN carp became a world beater in STL, and then carp got hurt.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 7:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That kinda makes sense

go on with the comparisons. I won’t argue

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 29, 2008 7:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Or Duncan leaves after 08

And we can start giving “funky” pithers like Worell or Reyes a chance to pitch their game.

by DriverZn on May 29, 2008 7:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

my prediction

is TLR/Dunc stay right where they are for at least five more years. He won’t talk about it, but my completely uninformed opinion is that he wants to pass John McGraw on the wins list.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 29, 2008 7:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if that happens

how long does luhnow stay in possession of full head of hair?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 29, 2008 7:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's a different situation if you're telling the guy he's getting a cup of coffee

while a MLB starter is hurt. What can be demoralizing is if you are told you’re up to stay, and then get randomly sent down (especially if you see multiple Marquis explosions with your bare eyes).

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 7:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Will Carroll reported in 2004

that glaus has a torn/frayed labrum in his shoulder, which may explain why he throws like he does. AFAIK he never had it operated on.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2100895/

Scary bit:
Last year, Dodgers slugger Shawn Green lost a significant amount of power because of a severe labrum tear.

Of course, the year after this was written, glaus hit 37 home runs, and then 38 in ‘06. But you have to wonder if he aggravated it in spring trainign or something…

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on May 29, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Edmonds did the same damn thing

I distinctly remember Zambronehead K-ing Jed on three face high fastballs.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 7:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, it will get more interesting...

Wait until Rasmus and Mather enter the outfield fray, we will.

Maybe we can field a second St Louis Cardinals (intramural?) baseball team that will play the Royals, Indians and Pirates on off days for a case of beer.

Rasmus, Mather and Barton will start in the OF with Stavinoha in reserve. Then Freese, Barden, Phelps and Hoff on the IF (with an occassional start by AA Jose Martinez to spell the struggling Hoff) Anderson behind the plate with Garcia, Boggs, Reyes and Worrell sharing all pitching duties….let Salas and Gregerson set up Motte?

by cardschinmusic on May 30, 2008 3:16 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The concerns about Duncan notwithstanding...

I’m more concerned about the starting pitching holding up…Larry is right when he says that SP is the number one reason this team is in contention, and almost none of us saw this (better starting pitching) coming. If Pineiro is out for awhile, I don’t know if there is any help on the way anytime soon, unless you want to dance with Reyes again. If we don’t have to throw somebody like Boggs into the fire right now, I’d rather not…let’s give him and the others just a little bit more time at AAA.

by tbell61 on May 29, 2008 10:29 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mather's splits

I had thought that one advantage of a Duncan-for-Mather swap is that the team is too heavy with lefties in the outfield. Bringing up Mather would give TLR more punch when the team faces a southpaw. And while I still think that’s the case, check out Mather’s Ludwick-like splits this year, per minorleaguesplits.com:

vs. LH .303/.425/.545 (33 AB)
vs. RH .324/.425/.716 (74 AB)

by DCGreg on May 29, 2008 10:36 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

small sample size

Unfortunately minorleaguesplits doesn’t have their pre-2008 data back up yet, but PECOTA thinks that Mather has a pretty much normal platoon split for a righty.

by mikedallas45 on May 29, 2008 10:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

that’s part of why I still think it’s the case that Mather would be at least a short-term improvement over Duncan—Mather would clearly be an upgrade against lefties. I’m having trouble calling up the PECOTA forecast. If you have it handy, I’d be interested to see it.

by DCGreg on May 29, 2008 10:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

PECOTA

They had him at .246/.315/.412, but that was before he started beating up AAA this year. Right now his Memphis numbers this season translate to a major league equivalent of .283/.365/.594, and that’s with a BABIP of only .290, so he hasn’t been especially lucky. As for platoon splits, PECOTA thinks that his BA will be .021 better against lefties, OBP is .029 better, and SLG is .044 better.

by mikedallas45 on May 29, 2008 10:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

addition by subtraction (hit the wrong key)

if he goes down it means regular time for Ludwick and extra PA’s for Skip and Barton, both of whom right now are producing more offensively and defensively than Duncan. Yesterday I posted my usual Duncan/Reyes message under the FanPost about his OPS. Basically, they’ve ruined his value. I believe he is not a plus majorleaguer, and should have been dealt after the 2006 season along with Reyes. Now we’re stuck with both.

As far as Glaus goes, we may be seeing the juice-less version, which may be why Toronto dealt him. Two homeruns at the end of May for a guy who is a regular in the 4 or 5 hole and once hit 47? Something wrong with that picture. Wasn’t this one of the major offensive problems in 2007? Production from the 4 and 5 hitters?

by vinniefromjersey on May 29, 2008 11:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There is something to be said for Mather's athletic ability over

Duncan’s. When Duncan is on, he makes up for his oaf-ish qualities on the bases and in the OF because he is driving in runs. Mather is a much better athlete, ignoring his hot hitting right now. Mather can bunt for a hit. He can steal a base. He takes much better routes in the OF and has a better arm.

As far as the Best Fans bit, you could tell that FSN Midwest got the memo on Monday. They were told to tell the fans not to want to call up Mather (Al did his traditional “young players suck” routing), they were told to feel bad about Russ Springer being taken out of his 7th inning role (even though Mac and Parisi have been better), to think that the only reason Kennedy is struggling is because he is hitting into ‘bad luck’, and that they should get really excited because TLR has already proclaimed Izzy the closer once he comes off the DL.

by Hardcore Legend on May 29, 2008 11:20 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Damn Al

That’s a bunch of bullshit

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 29, 2008 11:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Heard all that crap

and it drove me bananas. Kennedy “hitting” into bad luck. You have to hit the ball not swing & miss or roll over it to be considered hitting into bad luck. Springer is enough of a pro to take the ball whenever Tony wants to give it to him. He was ridden too hard early this year after barely pitching in the spring. HL – don’t forget just how good Springer was last year. Also, I think it is a mistake to have a bullpen full of only young relievers…Springer is a good influence out there. As to Izzy…well we can only hope that sanity somehow prevails. He does not deserve to be back in this ‘pen. Look how well the pen has pitched since his absence. Roles are now defined and leads are being kept.

by indakind on May 29, 2008 12:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Izzy needs 8

more saves for 300. Why not, if he is HEALTHY, let him out there to try for a three run save or something where a walk wont kill you. heres the segway (sp?): TLR MUST pull him if he issues anything other than an out. plain and simple.

yet, this is TLR, and Izzy will probably be given a 3 mile leash.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on May 29, 2008 2:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Player before the team

Izzy’s “milestone” is putting the player before the team. I like Izzy and thank him for being a very good closer for many years but if I was the manager I’ll be damned if I would put a player’s milestone in front of my team winning. Sending Izzy out to close games does just that. I sincerely hope that Izzy never pitches again. I am sorry that he might not reach a career milestone but he has already lost enough games for this team. Furthermore, his return upsets the applecart. The bullpen has well defined roles as is on a roll. If I were MO I would not allow an Izzy return to upset that balance.

by indakind on May 29, 2008 3:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hence

why I put in there:

let him out there to try for a three run save or something where a walk wont kill you. heres the segway (sp?): TLR MUST pull him if he issues anything other than an out. plain and simple.

I didnt mean for it to sound like I wanted a player above the team.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on May 29, 2008 3:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the last bit shouldnt be in the quote box

do I have to close quote after I input the quote?

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on May 29, 2008 3:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Except

that he already proved he could blow those also. There is no way you can put your closer into only safe situations. That would be a total waste of a roster spot just to get Izzy his milestone, ergo, putting the player in front of the team.

by indakind on May 29, 2008 4:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The real sad thing is that we can say Kennedy hasn't been getting unlucky

.290 BABIP while sporting a .580 OPS…...YIIIKES.

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on May 29, 2008 1:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No one has been more critical of Duncan than myself

I know on the open threads during the game I left the heat of the moment get to me and for that I apologize. At the same time I also will critisize consistant bad play. Whether he’s coming off an injury or not Duncan is not getting the job done. This is magnified by the play and ability of the other fielders. His mistakes are not errors that are easily hidden and thier are times where he flat out cost us games in the field. He is a huge liabilty in the field. When your dealing with a pitching staff that is average and some could argue over achieving you can’t put them in a situation where there pitching out of trouble caused by errors or trouble that a faster more athletic outfielder could contain.

Part of Duncans problem are not created by him. This is a different conversation if this team is 8 games under .500 and not 8 games over. Also, the fact of having talent knocking at the door doesn’t help the fact that fans are more likely to want to change horses in mid-stream. He is also saddled with the wieght of being the coaches son and crys of nepatism. I feel he goes out and gives an honest effort everytime he plays. Sometime this isn’t enough.

Alot of people like to point to the sports hernia Duncan had operated on last season. If this is the case he should be sent to AAA to get his swing back. His power is not there and now he’s in a slump. TLR has said since spring training nobodys job is safe everyone has to fight for a spot. Well this season I haven’t seen much that shows me that Duncan has earned the right to be run out there on a consistant basis.

As far as Santa and AK they may not be hitting very well but they are contributing in the field. I still think Glaus is going to shorten his swing and get into form. AK I see no chance of that happening.

by poohrat on May 29, 2008 11:55 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

He is pressing at the plate and failing on the field. Tony has asked him to do something, play outfield, that he doesn’t do well and his failure in left has created him worrying about what his fielding is costing the team and I have no doubt that is effecting his hitting. The crowd has turned against him, as of last night. and duncan doesn’t need they added mental pressure of winning back the crowd.
He should be sent to the minors to lessen the pressure of failing that is crushing him.
If and when he returns he should be a back up first baseman.

by leftcoastfan on May 29, 2008 1:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

but think that we should keep him around as the 5th outfielder/backup 1st baseman

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 29, 2008 2:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

him being the 5th OF/1b

isnt really helping him get his swing, or fielding, back now. I dont see it helping him, in a diminshed role in the future. I dont see how sending him down for everyday play would hurt him.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on May 29, 2008 2:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well

it probably wouldn’t hurt, but I don’t see it happening. there’s not enough reason to just now.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 29, 2008 3:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the best fans in baseball

are starting to boo him. I cannot imagine that helps his confidence when the HOME freaking fans are chiding him with boos. Yeah, hes a ML player, but hes a human.

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on May 29, 2008 3:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

when Cardinals fans are booing someone on their team, something is up

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 29, 2008 5:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

or izzy is pitching

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on May 29, 2008 6:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How can

you be a buyer and a seller at the same time and at the same position? Because according to MLBTR that’s our left field situation. If all those guys are on the market Lil Dunc isn’t going to fetch much.

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on May 29, 2008 12:17 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't get why

we’re listed as one of the top 3 teams looking for a left fielder. That seems quite the opposite of the actual situation. We could use pretty much anything but a left fielder.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on May 29, 2008 12:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've never understood the first inning intentional walk.

And on another note, don’t forget that Pineiro already took a ride on the DL train once this year. My question is why hasn’t Thompson been a possible solution to take over his role? He did a solid job for us as a starter in the beginning of the year. Is he hurt? I haven’t been following his AAA progress.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on May 29, 2008 12:22 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

DL

He never hit AAA he went on the DL instead, hasn’t been seen since, can’t get a straight answer from anyone on where he is.

by StLHugo on May 29, 2008 2:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kennedy's comments to DGoold

I wonder if there will be any repercussions on Kennedy’s pout about playing time in the P-D today? He was quoted as saying, “(TLR) is not going to play me everyday. I was hitting good and he didn’t. It’s not going to happen.” I am probably making too much of this, but anybody who sucks as bad as he does should keep his mouth shut.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 29, 2008 12:31 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

saw that too

he really makes it sounds as though he has been slighted, cheated, bamboozled, and is demanding a trade…... said something to the effect of “hopefully I will get that chance somewhere” referring to playing everyday…. fast track to the doghouse….. of course maybe he is trying to piss off management enough to get himself cut. Trade is unlikely….

by cdb on May 29, 2008 12:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lower numbers than Kennedy

among position players on our roster:

Average: LaRue
On-Base Pct.: no one
Slugging: LaRue

I think he should be thankful he’s getting any opportunity at all.

by salvomania on May 29, 2008 12:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he actually took ground balls at 2B and SS

in spring training, and looked pretty good. He’s no aaron miles, mind you, but few men are…

"the hardest decision to make is to do nothing; there is a terrible temptation to interfere." -gen patton

by SleepyCA on May 29, 2008 2:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

aaron miles is no man

aaron miles is a machine

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 29, 2008 6:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Poor Adam

I guess when he says he was hitting good, he’s referring to his mighty April line of .313/.364/.357, supported by a totally unsustainable BABIP of .373. One decent month out of 8 with the team, surely an extension is in order.

by mikedallas45 on May 29, 2008 12:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know right?

He made a few good plays in the field too. But he knew coming in that he wasn’t going to be sent out there day in and out even if he isn’t producing like he was last year.

by Evilfrog on May 29, 2008 3:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here we go again...

A player dissatisfied with his playing time/handling by the manager and the manager twisting the knife in the player’s back. I’m tired of this shit.

If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.

by cardsrul on May 29, 2008 1:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't understand Mr. Kennedy-he hasn't hit well except, well, April something.. I do know that Mr. LaRussa has to have at least one player

he publicly criticizes at all times. Last week it was Joel Piniero. Who is it this week? I haven’t been watching FSN. I just can’t. Al and Dan make my stomach turn….....they’re good about telling us who we aren’t supposed to like.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 29, 2008 1:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If he's so unhappy he can tear up his contract, I'm sure the Cards won't mind...

"Regression to the mean is so much more fun to watch when it’s a Cub who is regressing." SleepyCA

by joker24 on May 29, 2008 1:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Was that Jockerty (spelling?) deal?

We can’t blame MO for the AK deal, just have to bear with it for a while till trades are made (not saying trade AK, but who knows…. another Freese type of player for a veteran sounds OK to me).

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 29, 2008 2:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

freese type

no way AK fetches even a decent prospect in trade – he has no value right now….

by cdb on May 29, 2008 2:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I may have to add "no value right now"

to my already “small sample size” drinking game. Many franklins have been emptied lately…. thanks to all of you….hic!
(pardon me)

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 29, 2008 2:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jock signed him........

I was not aware of this board at the time, but the first question I asked myself is…..

Why does STL think they need a 2B who was wearing a knee brace while playing on the Angels? Also I also wondered why they wanted an older 2B who looked slow and had his glory years playing for the 2002 WS LA Angels…......

Signing Kennedy made absolutley no sense to me at the time. It sucks my hunch was correct

by ICbirdfan on May 29, 2008 2:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

after seeing that

I think we have found the weakest link

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 29, 2008 2:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The collateral damage

from the Duncan debacle is mounting. There comes a point when a biased opinion from an emotionally involved coach becomes, “bad coaching for everyone involved”. The result is a loser, which Tony becomes seriously and directly responsible for…..................
I feel to protect Tony and Dave, a good GM just steps in a resolves the conflict in full public view…......... The ugly side of this obvious solution is that it reveals the true fears of both coaches…...... if when send him out of our protection, he won’t make it back…...... That is a very common occurrence in little league and other father -son related sports endeavors. Lets put this behind us Mr. M…...
A side note…...... Ankiel has a history…...if his course is not more carefully watched, he could go mental again, which would be a great loss to this organization and it fans…...enough said.

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on May 29, 2008 12:35 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Golly hardcore

would you like me to tell you how the story ends, too? I only write here for the privilege of the few who might understand. That would include you. Examine your feeling. The victim here is Chris Duncan. He will probably do fine on another team. He is a big boy. I don’t have a history with this team. I’m telling you what I see. Collateral damage…..........

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on May 29, 2008 3:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Reyes

will he see more time with the big club? i have to wonder if he will, he does so well in AAA that i dont think they’ll want to risk his trade value by bringing him up. at this point, he probably wants to stay in AAA also, dominate that league, and be moved to another team. and at this point, and because im a big fan of his, i sort of hope that scenario plays out, both for him and the Cards, id just like to see what he could do elsewhere at this point…

by UNCDubya on May 29, 2008 12:45 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

reyes

isn’t pitching that much better right now than he was against MLB hitters. Yes his ERA is lower, but his WHIP is 1.47 in his four minor league starts this year. His AAA WHIP from 2005 to 2007 were 1.08, 0.96, and 0.98. His MLB WHIPs were 1.38, 1.4, and 1.39 in 2006 to 2008. His numbers in AAA this year look much like his MLB numbers from the past three years, not like his AAA numbers that caught everyone’s attention. And in only of his AAA starts did he post a game WHIP less than 1, his most recent.

I still have some hope that he can recover his talent and pitch to his potential, but so far his numbers aren’t as great as one would hope. On a positive note, his strikeouts are up – 19 in 17.2 innings.

by cdb on May 29, 2008 1:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you may be right

but he has only made a few starts down there this year and has improved significantly each start. i’m half heartedly looking for stats to back up this claim (while at work) but i’d be willing to bet that a similar scenario has occurred with each demotion to AAA, and by that i mean, starting out rough and making marked improvement.

by UNCDubya on May 29, 2008 1:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd still like to see him brought up instead of jiminez

and let parisi remain in the bullpen. but then again, maybe it’s “too soon” to bring him up again

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 29, 2008 2:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He has done a much better job of pitching out of jams....which means he's pitching out of the stretch..

Which has been a problem for him in the past-the WHIP #’s might not look good on paper, but being able to get out of jams is a real confidence boost for a pitcher. So he has been making that one pitch he really had to make to shut the other side down. If he continues on with those WHIP numbers, I would worry, but not just yet. He just hit the 90 pitch count last time out (89, actually) so he is still being stretched out.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 29, 2008 2:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If he can get ouf of Jams it will help him a ton!

That was his biggest problem last year. Instead of a 1 run inning he would turn an inning into a 4 run inning basically taking the team out of it right away…

by ICbirdfan on May 29, 2008 2:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

jill

I do hope that you are right and he is improving. I would love to see him excel as everyone thought he would (and I would love to see it happen while he wears the BOB).

by cdb on May 29, 2008 2:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

27 baserunners-15 hits, 11 BB, 1HBP

4 runs scored. Yes, he’s stranding runners. The walk totals are ugly, but he’s improved that a little each time out, so I expect that won’t be a problem for long. If it doesn’t , he’s got a whole other problem to work out. He won’t be back here. He can’t wear the BOB while Mr. LaRussa and Mr. Duncan are here. They have made that clear—Mr. Mozeliak needs to just make the best trade he can. There is no reason to keep him in AAA for 4 years. None…..

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 29, 2008 3:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Except that he fell apart at the MLB level and needs to straighten out his game

and is showing progress so far. He’s stabilizing and returning to normal at Memphis. To me, that seems to indicate that sending him to Memphis was the right decision.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 29, 2008 7:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I still hope Duncan moves on when his contract is up

And we get a new pitching coach next year. That would chan