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Roster Management

Once you have established any modicum of success in the majors, it can follow you around for years and years to come. Horacio Ramirez was signed by the Royals yesterday despite the fact that he's a well below replacement level pitcher. He had a couple of seasons with the Braves where he was a servicable pitcher but that ended in 2006. He was finally let go by the Mariners during Spring Training this year and now the Royals have picked him up. I don't know the Royals pitching situation but unless they are sending Ramirez to AA (with no expectation of calling him up) than they might as well light their money on fire. If they plan on calling him up, they might as well light their money on fire and shoot themselves in the foot while watching it burn -- it might hurt less than actually letting him pitch in the bigs.

I'm constantly amazed by teams that do this. Notice to any MLB team that needs a starter right now -- take a look at Jack Cassel. I should be this guy's agent at this point as often as I go out of my way to write about him. The Astros optioned him down to the minors since they think that he's not one of their best 12 pitchers -- they're probably wrong about that but I don't care to belabor the point. Cassel has made four starts since then including last night when he went 8 innings allowing 9 hits, 2ER, 5Ks and 1 walk. More importantly, he had 12 groundouts against 6 flyouts. Cassel has always had ridiculously high GO:AO ratios -- he's pushing 3:1 right now. The Astros would probably take some PTBNL for him and yet teams will sign guys like Ramirez over Cassel. Because they were in the majors previously. Stupid. Just stupid.

How does this relate to the Cardinals? Well, I'm not expecting them to try and acquire Cassel (they missed that when they let the Astros sign him for peanuts during the offseason). Instead, I want to give the Cardinals some credit and some criticism for the roster management this season.

The Cardinals recongized, relatively quickly, that Isringhausen was having problems this season. Instead of letting it drag on for months and months (see 2006), they put him on the DL with a -- sort of -- fake injury. The hand laceration isn't really the reason he's on the DL. He's on the DL because he's pitching like crap and no one is sure why. Until he gets some things straightened out, he won't be off the DL. The Cardinals deserve a lot of praise for calling up Chris Perez as rapidly as they did and for inserting Kyle McClellan into the bullpen at the beginning of the year and Mike Parisi a month later. We've watched them languish over these decisions extensively at times and they certainly could have kept someone like Cliff Politte or Kelvin Jimenez on the roster. Instead, they went with the more talented hurler and it's served them well thus far.

The depth in the minors certainly has something to do with this trend and hopefully it gives the Cardinals some confidence that if Ron Villone or Russ Springer continue to struggle, they can just pull the plug. There's still a handful of pitchers at AAA who could be major league relievers right now if called upon -- Mark Worrell and Jason Motte from the right side and Jaime Garcia from the left. That really applies to the pitching in general -- the starters like Pineiro and Lohse should realize that guys like Jaime Garcia or Mitchell Boggs aren't all that far behind. But, on balance this year, the front office deserves a lot of credit for managing their pitching corp. They stockpiled both depth and talent and it's let them weather injuries to Tyler Johnson, Brad Thompson, Mark Mulder, Russ Springer, Jason Isringhausen and Matt Clement that in past years could have undone the team.

If only I could say the same for the middle infield. A month ago, I cited my worries about the middle infield. Disregarding that not a single one of our 4 options (Ryan, Miles, Izturis and Kennedy) are hitting for power, at least they are maintaining respectable OBPs. Except for Kennedy that is. On the 25th of April, he was hitting .315/.367/.333 in 54 PAs. Since then, he's hit .203/.261/.266 bringing his overall line to .254/.310/.297. If we look at his numbers as a Cardinal during 2007 and 2008 (about 400 ABs), we can see that he's been hitting .229/.290/.292. Even if he's a good defender, he'd have to be Adam Everett good (i.e save like 40 runs a year with the glove) to be worth having around. But he's not that good defensively. Outside of the month of April in 2008, Adam Kennedy has shown that he simply can no longer hit the ball.

La Russa has taken the right first step in giving some of his at bats to Ryan and Miles at 2B but it's time to just cut bait. I know we still owe him around 5M dollars but we can owe him 5M dollars and let him post a sub-.600 OPS or we can call up someone like Joe Mather (who hit another HR tonight), pay him league minimum, and get some actual production. 5M dollars for crap of 5.4M dollars for not crap -- the team has taken the uncomfortable but necessary step when working with the bullpen and now it's time to apply the same rules to the middle infield. Don't hang on to a player for nostalgia or because you owe them money. If they aren't helping the team on the field, they don't belong on the team.

- - - - - - - - - -

It looks like the Cardinals may face Clayton Kershaw on Saturday. I hate these stupid West Coast games because they're so bloody late but I'll be staying up for that one. As a 20 year old in AA, Kershaw has been ridiculously good posting a 3:1 K rate and groundball tendencies. He's not someone that I'd relish the Cardinals facing but it should be interesting.

Tonight the Cardinals are going up against Derek Lowe. After being signed to a 36M/4Y contract in 2005, Lowe has been extremely durable and effective for the Dodgers the last three years. He's gotten somewhat overlooked given how good his numbers have been. He'll face off against Adam Wainwright who looks to right the ship after the last few outings. Wainwright claims that he hasn't been as focused lately between starts. Hopefully, he can be more like the pitcher he was in April than the one he's been in May.

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Mather’s had a good 130 PA’s after a pretty underwhelming 290 PA’s a year ago at Memphis. Yeah, I know, he had a good half season at Springfield, but he had it at the age of 24 and it followed a pretty underwhelming career to that point. He really doesn’t present an overwhelming case to be brought up ASAP and even if you dump Barton, Mather’s not going to get much playing time anyway.

It’s tough to find good middle infielders. The Cubs, for example, have been chasing after crap for years now and they’re giving playing time to Ryan Theriot and had to give a big pile of money to a utility man in Mark DeRosa. Certainly it’s pointless to do what the Cardinals are doing, since their mad scientist manager can’t somehow amalgamate the four players’ extra-base hits into one or two players. But what I take away from the middle infield mediocrity is that Pete Kozma’s value probably was underrated a year ago.

by greenback06 on May 23, 2008 8:23 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Huh?

Theriot—.324/.398/.405 with 9 SB’s and 21/17 BB/K ratio.

Derosa—.305/.403/.444 after hitting .293/.371/.420 in 2007

Those are hardly “utility” man numbers for a middle infield - I’d venture to say that they’re in the top five infields in terms of production in all of baseball, and that includes teams who are paying a lot more for league-averageness at this point. (Look at the pile of money they Yanks are spending and the production they’re getting for their buck - Jeter is headed to the “all-overpaid” list, where he should have been for a long time.)

a big pile of money to a utility man in Mark DeRosa.

$4.750 million is a “big pile”? Combined, these two are making $5,178,000 this year…when we compare that to, say, the Cardinal middle infield of Izturis and Kennedy who are making $5,350,000 combined, and that’s before all of Izturis’ incentives kick in, which would push that number over $6 million this year.

I’d take the Cubs production for their dollar over what the Cardinals are getting for theirs any day.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 23, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is it worth it

to try to get Cedeno from the Cubs somehow? Theriot is entrenched at SS. they’ve got Derosa.

Cedeno seems to have swung back to “hey, this guy is a great prospect”. He’s hitting well this year.

Probably wouldn’t work, of course.

by sdrone on May 23, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely

Although there’s no chance that they’d trade him inside the division. If I were an American League team who’s struggling at the SS position (just about every one of them), I’d be looking to pry him from the Cubs though.

I think that he just needs to play everyday, but he’s another guy that seems to have somehow gotten into Lou’s doghouse and just isn’t going to get a shot.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 23, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would love to take a look at Ronny Cedeno....there is absolutely no reason not to deal within the division.

I do not understand that. If Cedeno’s who you want, you try to go get him. I think he’s got some untapped talent…..

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 23, 2008 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes Ronny is not a bad option..

Although it comes down to if Chicago wants to deal with the division. The ball would not be in the Cards court.

by ICbirdfan on May 23, 2008 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd think the difficulty lies in that

you have to be sure that you “win” the trade, rather than just “improving your team”. It’s more critical than when dealing with a non-rival, and of course, your rival GM also has to be sure he “wins” the trade, too, making it tough to reach an agreement.

Mo could trade Glaus for Rolen with the knowledge that if Rolen returned to all-star level, he’d be doing it in the AL, so there’d be a low probability of direct consequences. If Mo traded Rolen to MIL, as was rumored, he’d have to face the direct consequences of that for years to come.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 23, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So what? Why should you care about that? If you're concerned a player might be good enough

to come back and haunt you, maybe you shouldn’t be dealing that player. What if you trade a player to another league, and they turn right around and trade him to one of your division rivals 2 weeks later? Then you don’t get a shot at a player you wanted, and you still have to face that player. I understand it’s risky, but BOTH teams are taking a risk. To me, it’s not about “winning” the trade-it’s about getting the exact player you NEED. If I were GM, I would not hesitate to deal within the division if they had the right player for my team.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 23, 2008 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trading within the division

isn’t about simply getting “the exact player you NEED.” You also have to consider how the player you are trading away helps your division rival. For example, if the division rival is one key player away from winning the division, and your team is 3 key players away, you wouldn’t want to trade for that great middle infielder even though he’s “the exact player you NEED” because you are ensuring that you’ll lose the division. I think that’s what Sleepy’s referring to when he says you have to be sure you win the trade: how much better does your team get compared to how much better your rival gets. Obviously if a team is in a “win now” mode and the trading partner is floundering, they might not care who wins in the long run as long as they get the immediate boost, but they still have to consider the relative value to both sides.

by Ray Lankford on May 23, 2008 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

assuming Cedeno was "the right player"

If I were GM, I would not hesitate to deal within the division if they had the right player for my team.

Who would YOU trade for Ronny Cedeno?

Let’s assume adding cedeno would make our team 2.5 wins better from ‘08-12 than playing Ryan. Would you trade a guy like mather, who we don’t really “need”, but who might make the cubs 4-5 wins better per year?

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 23, 2008 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually I would make that deal.

I doubt the Cubs are ready to set Cedeno loose just yet. And the Cardinals probably aren’t ready to part with Mather just yet. There are not a whole lot of good, young middle infielders to be had in baseball right now, so yes, I would make that trade.

You do know it’s all just talk. I can’t trade anyone, and it’s against baseball’s unwritten rules-you don’t trade in your division. I just happen to think there are times it should be considered. That’s all.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 23, 2008 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's become pretty clear to me

That the biggest problem with this team is filling the hitting gaps. Miles and Ryan usually do their part to justify their existence in the line up. La Rue and Kennedy have not. Izturis was useless for the first month but has since caught on fire. (If hitting 2 singles a game is catching on fire)

I think that the team as a whole has not been hot is a sign of good things to come. My biggest worry though is La Russa’s habit of changing the line up, every single day, no matter what. I get playing the numbers and odds and histories but maybe put the best 9 out there and hope for the best?

by riotmute on May 23, 2008 8:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Lineup tinkery

While not striking the ball well at all (BA .212) and not hitting for power whatsoever (SLG .273), to say that Izturis was worthless in April is inaccurate. He did manage a .350 OBP from the #9 hole, which is Eckstein-esque. I sound like CarsWin. I was pretty excited by his .350 OBP even if I thought it was completely unsustainable. In May, he’s been very productive: .345 / .400 / .418

(God bless Dave Pinto and the Day-by-Database.)

TLR has always tinkered with the lineup. It’s his way. Last year, he led the majors in different lineups, something that he has done multiple times in his career. He switched the lineup around just as much in 2005, when we had 105 wins.

by bgh on May 23, 2008 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Keep on tinkering

I agree with bgh. I think the tinkering is helping in many ways: to find playing time for all our outfielders and to match lefty/righty, to restart hitters at #2 slot (see C. Dunc’s recent take on P-D), to keep guys sharp off the bench. I don’t disagree that a good lineup for a particular day is important (i.e. best 9), but it is also important to have a long term perspective (season-wise and beyond). I am hoping that C. Dunc gets hot (not horrible so far .265 .378 .416) , especially with interleague DH’ing, to boost his trade value. At the very least, the tinkering has provided some nice entertainment for VEB lineup guessing.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on May 23, 2008 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If anyone expects

TLR to change the way he manages at this point in his career, they will be sorely disappointed. Yes, it can, and often does, drive people batty, but that’s his way, and there are 2403 reasons wins why it’s worked so far. I’m not a blind homer or defender of his, by any means, but you know what? He knows a hell of a lot more about managing than I do, so I’ll defer to him in these matters.

If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.

by cardsrul on May 23, 2008 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

two minor points

Izturis has been productive in May but he’s not a .345 hitter so that’s really just his regression to the mean after a crappy April.

When you switch players in and out of the lineup and everyone is good (2005) it really doesn’t matter. When you do that and everyone isn’t good (2008) things can go badly.

by azruavatar on May 23, 2008 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure about badly

28-21 and 1 GB. I am not sure what you mean by going badly? Are you refering to the potential, or are you referring to something that has already happened? Isn’t the May slide more a function of the pitching than the lineup? I am too slow and am not following.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on May 23, 2008 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just mean that tinkering

when every player is a good one probably isn’t going to impact the offense. Tinkering (for the sake of tinkering) when you have good and bad players can.

by azruavatar on May 23, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for clarifying

Maybe I am too much of a homer, but I think our players in the outfield are pretty good. MIF is another thing altogether. Sigh.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on May 23, 2008 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lineup Tinkering

CBS used to list the total number of different lineups that each team had used in a season. The last time I checked (3 or 4 years ago), LaRussa was actually no more of a tinkerer than any other manager in baseball – it’s just a home fan perception. I originally looked this up as, living in Chicago, I heard Cubs fans complain non-stop about the exact same thing. “Stick with a lineup, Dusty.” (He was still the manager when I lived up there.)

I’ll take a look and see if that information is still out there.

by Robb on May 23, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Baseball-reference.com

has all that kind of stuff as well.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 23, 2008 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2008

Here’s the info on the Cardinals vs. 1st place teams so far this year, from sportsline.com (CBS). The first number is different lineups used this year, the 2nd number is the number of times the most frequent lineup has been used.

Cardinals 42 5

Red Sox 37 5
White Sox 29 13
Angels 43 3
Marlins 29 6
Cubs 30 6
Diamondbacks 37 5

Granted, this doesn’t take into consideration injuries, and it also doesn’t represent a full season, or teams currently playing badly. But if you pile up the information over more teams and more seasons, you’ll see that there really isn’t a correlation between multiple lineups and winning/losing. In fact, just based on the small list above, on the White Sox are really more consistent with their lineups than the Cardinals.

by Robb on May 23, 2008 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I remember that one of the cubs blogs actually sold "Dusty Lineup Dice"

with positions on one die and players on the other. And, of course, a “Neifi!” complete with exclamation point.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 23, 2008 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's funny

Maybe I should have phrased my thought differently. It’s not that tinkering inherently hurts the team and I don’t expect TLR to change his ways. It just seems like and many have voiced this year, that every time this team gets on a roll he finds a way to put out a weak lineup

As for Izturis in May, if he can keep this up all summer long I will be ecstatic but it won’t happen.

by riotmute on May 23, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Updated for his new team...

"because at the end of the day they still are the Chicago Cubs"

by rockin the red on May 23, 2008 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point

Although, I’d change your parenthetical year for when everyone isn’t good to 2007. TLR had a career high for different lineups and led the league. Granted, injuries likely dictated the uptick in his mad scientist experimenting. Of course, we probably did win more games than we should have last year. (Caveat: I was in Europe for two months, only reading about our precipitous downfall and returned just in time for our last ditch run at first.)

by bgh on May 23, 2008 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don Tony's lineups

are geared to keeping everybody as “sharp” as possible; getting bench players “regular” ABs so they can perform well coming off the bench.

Having said that, Ludwick needs to play EVERY DAY until he cools off. If only Skip could play 2B! Then, you could have Duncan, Ankiel, Ludwick AND a “leadoff hitter” in your lineup… but moving Schu to the IF is highly unlikely, unless it’s done in the off-season.

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on May 23, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it is weird that they didn't think about this

Skippy did play in the IF in college. How hard would’ve it been to have him take some groundballs during spring training?

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 23, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The biggest problem

is turning the double-play; since the Cards rely on groundballers, a good “pivot” man is a must…

Fielding grounders and throwing to 1B wouldn’t be a problem… it’s receiving a throw at 2B, with a runner bearing down on you from behind your back, and making a good throw to 1B! That’s what takes time to learn.

Moving Mike Shannon from RF to 3B was a piece of cake compared to moving anybody from the outfield to 2B; too hard to do during the season, IMO.

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on May 23, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Furcal

We need to really sweep the Dodgers and hope every day they get closer to falling out of contention. Furcal is still the one player that can solve all our problems. The Dodgers are trying to sign him but he already said if is not re-signed by mid season than he is just going to wait till the off season. If there is anyone we should overpay for in a trade and resign it is Furcal. He could easily bat lead off to bat clean up.

The problem is we don’t match up well with what we have and what the Dodger need. What is half a season of Furcal worth?

P.S

Derek Lowe is sucking this season. He got rocked in last start for 7 ER in 5 IP

by FlimtotheFlam on May 23, 2008 9:12 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

To avoid the jinx

I’ll point out that he volunteered to pitch on short rest for that last start after Penny’s shoulder got tight and he couldn’t go.

by birdo rojo on May 23, 2008 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still Bad

Look at his last 4 starts not EVEN including his last one on short rest

21.1 IP 18ER 10 BB 16 K

by FlimtotheFlam on May 23, 2008 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yep

yep lowe has been crap as of late

by cd on May 23, 2008 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sinkerballers are better when they're a bit tired

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 23, 2008 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We can't afford half a season of Furcal

I just got back from LA and had been following them pretty closely while I was there. I think it will be really tough to get Furcal from them. Even though they have started to hit after languishing in the beginning of the season, they still have tons of offensive problems. Andrew Jones, Third base (even though props to Dewitt), Jeff Kent, etc… My sense is that they will hold on to Furcal unless someone wants to badly overpay which I really don’t see happening.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on May 23, 2008 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i agree that furcal is a great fit for us

but he will be a Type A free agent, so if the dodgers just let him play out his option they will get two #1 draft picks for him. that means any package the cardinals would offer will have to be at least that good — ie, they’ll have to offer two of their very best prospects (e.g., bryan anderson plus jaime garcia) for half a season of furcal. the cards can’t afford that.

by lboros on May 23, 2008 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is no way.....

The Cards would make the trade before talking to Furcal about resigning, I don’t think.

by SoonerfanTU on May 23, 2008 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but do they want to sign a 31-year-old guy

to a 5-year contract? that’s probably what it will take to get furcal; they’ll have to gamble many millions of dollars that he will stay healthy through his mid 30s. and in exchange for that privilege, they’ll have to give up at least two very good, young, cost-controlled players . . . . . i’m not sure that’s in their best interest.

by lboros on May 23, 2008 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

to follow up on myself

i’d be happy if the cards pursue furcal in the off-season as a free agent; i thought they should have pursued him in 2005-06 when he was available. but i don’t think they should give up 12 years’ worth of young talent to acquire two add’l months of furcal (ie, august/sept of 2008).

by lboros on May 23, 2008 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not convinced

he’d be worth giving up the draft picks if we signed him in the offseason.

He’d be a 36-year-old in the last year of a 5-year contract. If we could flip him after two (hopefully productive) years, it’d be great. Expecting his legs to retain their value through his age 33 season is a substantial risk.

by liam on May 23, 2008 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It would only be one pick

Type A free agents net a first or second round pick from the signing team plus a pick in the supplemental round (but not from the signing team).

What about Orlando Hudson, who is an unrestricted free agent after this year I believe? He is 30 going on 31, a plus defender, and a switch hitter, pretty similar to Furcal really. And I would think he would be cheaper to sign than Furcal simply because he is a second baseman rather than a shortstop. Kennedy shouldn’t be starting on a Major League team and the sooner he is off the roster the better. A middle infield of Ryan/Izturis and Hudson would be an upgrade.

by CURVEBALL on May 23, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Short stop prospects

There was a nice rundown of shortstop prospects yesterday by Baseball Prospectus. If you are a subscriber you can read the article.

by CURVEBALL on May 23, 2008 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

But doesn’t that change when you’re in contention for the playoffs and the entire National League is looking like a real crapshoot right now? Aside from Arizona, I don’t see a single team that the Cardinals couldn’t beat in a 5 or 7 game series if Carpenter comes back and can contribute? Even Arizona could be had if they struggle offensively like they did against the Rockies in the NLCS last year.

I think he really is a the one missing piece to this lineup that could make it lethal were he at the top of the order. If it’s possible to get him without giving up the entire farm system, and then sign him in the offseason, I think you have to look at making that deal—especially when you’re in the hunt for a World Series berth

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 23, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"if Carpenter comes back..."

Mo might be waiting to see how Carp’s rehab progresses before committing to a “Win Now” approach. Not sure the team should mortgage the future for a shot at winning without Carpenter contributing.

by ubeddie on May 23, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

I would think it might be in the Cards best interest to find a minor league MI in some organiztion who looks to be pretty good. Teams tend to hold onto those type of guys though.

by ICbirdfan on May 23, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think he'll cost quite that much

If they are comparing the haul they will get to what they can expect from the two draft picks. Garcia and Anderson are equivalent to two number one picks who pan out in the high minors; I think, given normal flame-out rates, that’s worth a bit more than two unused #1 picks.

Still, even if the cost winds up being even one of those two guys, that’s too expensive for a half-year rental—it’s not as if this team is just missing one final piece to be a strong WS contender

by tdawg on May 23, 2008 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem is there no one else

Look at this of 09 Free Agents of SS and 2B

Second basemen
Ray Durham (37)
Mark Ellis (32)
Marcus Giles (31)
Mark Grudzielanek (39)
Orlando Hudson (31)
Tadahito Iguchi (34)
Jeff Kent (41)
Felipe Lopez (29)
Mark Loretta (37)
Aaron Miles (32)
Jose Valentin (39)

Shortstops
Orlando Cabrera (34)
David Eckstein (34)
Adam Everett (32)
Rafael Furcal (31)
Cristian Guzman (31)
Cesar Izturis (29)
Felipe Lopez (29)
Edgar Renteria (33) – $11MM club option for ‘09 with a $3MM buyout
Juan Uribe (30)
Omar Vizquel (42) – $5.2MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.3MM buyout

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/2009-mlb-free-a.html

by FlimtotheFlam on May 23, 2008 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Orlando Hudson would be a great pick-up for a 2 year contract or so.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 23, 2008 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no chance will he get only 2 years

he’ll likely get 5

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on May 23, 2008 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that...

and he’s probably going to be re-signed by Arizona before the end of the year.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 23, 2008 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We all know Aaron Miles isn't a free agent

He’s coming back baby.

With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch

by joker24 on May 23, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That made me laugh

So very true.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on May 23, 2008 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If there is anyone we should overpay for in a trade and resign it is Furcal. He could easily bat lead off to bat clean up.

2007 – .270/.333/.355

career – .287/.352/.412

30 years old. overpay? bat cleanup? i’m open-minded, but i’d need an explanation.

he off to a hot start in 2008, but he’s also got a .386 BABIP vs a .299 eBABIP.

by astrostl on May 23, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I wouldn’t be opposed at shooting for a trade for Hu if Furcal resigns, though. He looked really bad in his short time this year, so he might come cheap. Of course he might also BE really bad.

Wonder what the Brewers would take for Bill Hall? He was a tremendous defensive SS IIRC, and then for some reason they started moving him around and he’s been not-so-good. He makes 6.8M in 2009, and $8.4M in 2010 w/$9.25M team option for 2011, and they don’t really have a position for him.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 23, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

interesting

Hall was #1 in the ML at SS by a considerable margin by PMR, but ranked very low by RZR. So it’s probably not a great idea to try him there again, since he was bad enough to be moved off the position by people who see him every day.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 23, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

defensive metric

I was reading Bernie’s post over at the stltoday defending Duncan, the younger’s defensive abilities in left field. It got me thinking. I don’t have a great understanding of the defensive metrics, but it seems like the most frequently used are based on some sort of ‘zone’ system that grades the defense based on where the ball is hit in relation to where the outfielder is. Now my question is, do these defensive metrics actually look at where the outfielder was playing just before that pitch, or is there an ‘average’ position for left fielders to play? I ask becuase if zones are defined only by where the average outfielder plays, than a well-studies coaching staff that positions their outfielders correctly could largely inflate the ratings of players using ‘zone’ based systems. That is, a defense will look better if properly poitioned by the coaching staff than the players ability warrants.

by cdb on May 23, 2008 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

PMR is the one I understand best

It doesn’t work by zones so much, but by splitting the field up into vectors directed from home and fanning out across the field of play.

Then you measure how frequently balls hit along those vectors and at what distance and ball-in-play type (ground…fly) are caught by the player manning such and such a position. For individual players, you compare the (smoothed, I imagine) frequency at getting to balls along those vectors to the MLB average.

So player positioning could artificially inflate a player’s defensive ability as measured by PMR, but could also hurt it. I’d guess that it evens out over the course of a season. It would be interesting and useful to develop a similar system that gives a general picture of a player’s range by comparing how far he’s reliably able to make plays from where he’s initially positioned to where the play is made.

by liam on May 23, 2008 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

even out

I don’t think it would even out – and that is why I asked. If it did even out than the positioning is really pointless – the benefit of positioning is gone. And clearly some hitters have tendencies which are somewhat predictable (somewhat) – and that should be (and is) taken advantage of.

I do think that these defensive metrics should take into account the starting position of the fielder to be reliable. Easily said – hard to do…..

by cdb on May 23, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hard to do

yeah, starting position isn’t recorded anywhere right now. That pitch f/x article mentioned below hints that MLB is planning on instituting something similar that’ll measure more events in the years to come.

We live in interesting times.

by liam on May 23, 2008 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but deciding where to stand on the field

is a big part of “playing the position”. Ask Belliard how good he’d be at second if he lined up where Miles or kennedy lines up. it’s all about making the plays, catching the balls, making the outs. The guy who makes the most outs is the better fielder.

Izturis LOOKS better than ryan at short because he’s very good at going to his right, but not as good at going to his left, so he lines up deeper in the hole than Ryan at short. because of this, he makes some very flashy plays to the right. Though h JJ hardy. (the Dewan fielding bible stats available at “bill james online” actually break this down into “plays made/not made to left” ve “plays made/not made to right”)

Ryan, OTOH, doesn’t make as many flashy plays, but a higher percentage of the balls hit towards short get fielded when he is there.

Which one is a better fielder? Watching on TV, you’d say Iz2, because he’s always ranging way over, backhanding and throwing across the diamond. But if Ryan had been in the game, the out would have likely have still been made; it just wouldn’t have impressed us. But over the course of a season, more outs would be probably be made with Ryan than with Izturis (although izturis is still very, very good, better than any other full time starter in the league).

RZR does try to account for this with the “out of zone” numbers; a player who doesn’t make 20 “in the zone” outs but makes 20 “out of zone” outs is as valuable as a guy who makes all of his “in the zone” outs but no out of zone outs. However, it’s pretty tough to make up for poor positioning by making ooz outs, since guys produce at least some “out of zone” outs no matter where they line up.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 23, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

should be

“though he’s still much better at going to his left than a guy like JJ Hardy”. Not sure what happened there.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 23, 2008 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nobody plays deeper than Dunc

saw him play vs. the Nats in RFK. Duncan was about two steps from the warning track. Coincidentally, A. Soriano played about the same depth. I would say neither will be GG any time soon.

by gocards62 on May 23, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OTOH

duncan catches more than his share of fly balls to left field- he’s one of the best LF’s in the NL- while soriano does not, going by RZR.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 23, 2008 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder if Duncan is actually improving

or if we are seeing a small sample size thing? His RZR last year was only .781. It would be a tremendous improvement to go from there to the current .936. I am not that familiar with OF OOZ numbers, but I would say he is pretty good on OOZ as he does run pretty well for a big guy.

If he maintains his RZR pace I guess I will have take back all (or at least most) of the awful things I have said about his defense.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 23, 2008 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but he played half of last year hurt

I saw hima couple of times in September and he could hardly run at all.

I wish they had a day-by-day database for things like that. it would be useful to see when the balls he missed occurred.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 23, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zone Rating

I don’t understand zone ratings etc. well either, but it seems to me that they must be based on a set area where a certain fielder is supposed to make plays. I always hear complaints that Skip is playing way off the line, so he may have a lot of balls that fall well out of his range but within the standard corner outfielder zone thus degrading his rating. This may be an unfair knock on his record because positioning likely comes from the bench.

On the other hand, positioning away from your traditional zone should be reflected in an increase in out of zone plays. Maybe it levels out in the overall metric?

by ZiggyG on May 23, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just don't get how you really get accurate defensive stats

Heck errors are even off these days. They just tend to give guys hits anymore because then no one gets penalized for a bad play. It’s turning into slowpitch softball where everything is a hit.

by ICbirdfan on May 23, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i disagree

i think the attempts to find an objective way to rate defense are the way to go.

by FunkeeC on May 23, 2008 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree

I think that the naked eye overvalues smoothness and fluidness and the occasional great play. You need to have some kind of numbers to get a feel on a guys consistency and range.

The problem is that it is way more difficult to quantify fielding stats where chances are less numerous and less homogeneous than batting and pitching.

by ZiggyG on May 23, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree with your

disagreement, in the case of some observers. I’ll agree with you about “naked eye” views for most people including myself. But I think certain people, e.g., some former players and hopefully a good number of scouts, can take those things into account and can see which guys are good defenders and which are not. In our concern about eliminating bias due to subjectivity, I think we are taking things a little too far when it comes to defense.

by MdRedbirdFreak on May 23, 2008 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

who are these 'some observers'

would these be the same people who vote on the gold gloves? the same former players and managers who get on tv or radio and continue to pass on the same stereotypes and mythology that they were taught. Objective measurements will always be a better way to measure performance. The problem is that finding objective measures for defense is still evolving and we are caught in the middle trying to weigh our current measures with older school ways of identifying good defense.

by FunkeeC on May 23, 2008 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know who these "some observers" are.

But surely you would not claim that there are no coaches, players, scouts, etc., who are able to recognize good defensive play without being unduly influenced by irrelevancies like “smoothness”? Take, for instance, range. Player A wows the fans because he dives for balls all the time, though most people don’t realize he must dive because his range is poor, while Player B does not have to dive so much because his range is so much greater. That insight ain’t rocket science, and I’m sure the smarter baseball men have recognized it for a century.

And yes, there are also a lot of fools in baseball who have fundamental misunderstandings.

by MdRedbirdFreak on May 23, 2008 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What do you think

of Tango’s defensive project?

Would you expect the aggregate fan opinion to accurately measure a player’s defensive ability?

by liam on May 23, 2008 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

with the more advanced fielding systems

it doesn’t matter whether it was called an error or not.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 23, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's a question based on Dewan

I know it reviews what an OF should catch in zone and out of zone. But, does it take into account a shifting zone? My point being, Chris may be catch alot of balls ‘out of zone’ for a LF because Dave and TLR have him lining up in the LCF gap. It makes it impossible for him to get to anything hit to his right and impossible for him to get to anything he would have to come in on but if a ball is hit into that gap, he’ll get it every time because he is deep enough and shifted over enough.

Would that be considered ‘in zone’ or is the shift still considered ‘OOZ’?

by Hardcore Legend on May 23, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you mean RZR

Anyway, I’ve noticed Skip not catching the fly balls by lining up shallow and towards CF, and that is captured in his lower RZR rating, but I haven’t noticed this with Duncan. If anything, Duncan seems to play deep and towards the corner, causing him to not get to some shallow fly balls.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 23, 2008 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it would be out of zone

they don’t make any considerations for positioning beyond the handedness of the batter in some cases.

Zone ratings record where the ball is fielded on the field (regardless of whether it’s caught or not. Then it takes percentages of balls caught in different zones and “asks” whether the player should or should not have been expected to make that play based on averages by other players at that position.

by azruavatar on May 23, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What do you mean by "wheather it's caught or not"?

So if a SS dives and knocks a ball down it counts as fielded?

This stuff is confusing to me!

What’s the current best metric in your opinion? Or is it one of those things where you just have to look at a few metrics to fully analyze someone’s D?

by ICbirdfan on May 23, 2008 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if he gets the out

it counts. if he doesn’t get the out, it doesn’t. it doesn’t matter if it goes between his legs or if he lines up in the shift and makes a tremendous diving catch on a ball hit the other way but can’t throw him out.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 23, 2008 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the way azu made it sound

Was it counted if a SS made a diving stop in the hole but couldn’t throw the runner out it counted. I guess the fielder did get to the ball but he did not complete the play by missing the out.

by ICbirdfan on May 23, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

just thought i'd say this whole converstation is fascinating for me

although the only true knowledge i think i’ve gained is a better appreciation for how difficult it truly is to quantify defense.
as a result i will flee from what is difficult and choose the much easier path of denial. from now on, as far as i’m concerned, the only stats that matter when it comes to defense are errors, fielding percentage, wins, era, and runs batted in!

by mattybobo on May 23, 2008 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

apologies for not being clear

the player only gets credit for the play if an out is recorded. If Chris Duncan watches a ball smack him square in the face but fails to throw the runner out, he doesn’t get credit for that play.

Obviously, I’m grossly oversimplfying things here - UZR, for example, has all sorts of qualifiers in it i.e. ball type, difficulty of play, speed of fielder, etc. - but that’s the basic concept of zone metrics. PMR (which liam cited above) is a very similar concept but uses vectors rather than zones.

by azruavatar on May 23, 2008 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this

is exactly the question I was trying to ask. Alot of the positioning is based on hitter tendencies – and these are not memorized by the outfielders (though some may be), but called in from the bench. It seems that a good dataset on these tendencies might mask defensive shortcomings.

by cdb on May 23, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Greg Rybarcyzk that runs hit tracker

did a presentation where you could track fielders starting position and basically make a grid of the field to gather more data. Frankly, I think that sounds like an incredible idea and I think it could be a huge step forward for defensive metrics—it would go a long way toward solving your, very legitimate, concerns.

by azruavatar on May 23, 2008 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can Mather play middle infield?

by scfalcon on May 23, 2008 9:19 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Middle Infield

No but he came up as a corner infielder who was converted to OF. At present, B. Ryan is on the roster in the backup corner IF slot last held by Scott Sp. I guess the thinking would be you release Kennedy, move Ryan over to 2nd w/ Miles as the spare MI then Joe Mather comes up at the backup corner IF/ OF. I’ve never seen Mather play the infield so I’ll leave it for someone else to comment whether he can hold his own at 3rd.

by jjray on May 23, 2008 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Joe

Wasn’t he drafted as a SS? Looks like he played a little there in rookie ball. he played a significant amount at 3rd though.

by Carps on May 23, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He hasn't played infield for 2 years

except for a couple of games at 1B. Has only played 1B as an infileder since 2004. I thought he was a converted catcher?

Must have a good arm, 8 assists and 3 DP’s this year already, playing right field.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 23, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Joe Mather

So there’s tales of him starting as a catcher, a SS, a 3B, and converted into the outfield? Is he the Chuck Norris of our team?

“One game he was pitching a perfect game when a crazed fan came out and cut his throwing arm off with a machete. He stayed in the game and completed the perfect game with his non-throwing arm, before going to the hospital and having his other arm reattached.”

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 23, 2008 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was wrong about the catcher part

Motte was the former catcher. And yes, Mather was drafted as a SS in 2001, 3rd round

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 23, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

See, here's the difference between

your pretty good prospect and your superstar. Pujols would have finished the game, driven in the GW run with a one-armed home run, and then reattached his arm HIMSELF.

by MdRedbirdFreak on May 23, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

pujols did hit a one-arm homerun

a year or two ago in coors field. he basically reached for it and it bounced off the top of the wall for a homer. kind of cheating since i (5’6”, ~140 lbs) could probably hit a homerun in coors field if i got a little luck, but still.
anybody else remember this to back me up?

by mattybobo on May 23, 2008 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe he re-attached his arm too..

and that’s why he has elbow problems.

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 23, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He would have also shunned using a bat.

He would have hit the homerun by swinging his severed arm with his good one.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 23, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did you know? stat of the day

Cards are 2-12 when behind after six innings.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 23, 2008 10:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I would need a comparison...

What is the average for the NL/MLB? How many teams have better/worse records? this number is bad, but it also makes sense… you lose when you’re down late in the game.

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 23, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ask and here you go... not so bad, but wish it was better

Picking only NL teams with winning records

Record win behind after 6 innings

Cubs 3-15
Astros 7-18
Marlins 5-15
Braves 3-17
Phillies 8-17
D-Backs 4-14
Dodgers 2-17

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 23, 2008 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Looks good to me

Of NL teams with winning records, we’ve been behind after 6 innings the fewest times at 14. Tied for second are the Cubs and Snakes.

That impresses me.

by liam on May 23, 2008 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

to say another stat (useless?)

Runs scored by Cards in 6th and 7th combined = 32

Cubs 63
Astros 37
Marlins 54
Braves 57
Phillies 58
D-Backs 57
Dodgers 57

Dodgers score mostly in 1st and 7th inning (just something to watch for this weekend)

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 23, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That frustrates me

It just shows how many games we’ve lost in the last three innings compared to the other top line NL teams

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 23, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so...

Win percentage (games under .500)
Dodgers .105 (-15)
Braves .150 (-14)
Cubs .167 (-12)
Astros .280 (-11)
Cardinals .142 (-10)
D-Backs .222 (-10)
Marlins .250 (-10)
Phillies .320 (-9)

Phillies clearly the best at coming back…
What about records when AHEAD after 6? Tied? etc. That would be a better indication of things within a team’s (read: bullpen) control.

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 23, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

working hard here

Record when leading after 6 innings

Cubs 25-1
Astros 17-4
Marlins 18-2
Braves 21-2
Phillies 17-1
D-Backs 23-4
Dodgers 16-1
Cards 23-7

Record when tied after 6 innings

Cubs 0-3
Astros 3-0
Marlins 4-2
Braves 2-2
Phillies 2-4
D-Backs 1-1
Dodgers 7-3
Cards 3-2

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 23, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Our revamped 'pen should help that that stat some.

We have the worst record on the list, I see.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on May 23, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Most losses, yes

but Astros are worse percentage wise.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 23, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

More PA's for Aaron Miles?

Say it isn’t so, AZ! You’ve come full circle! (but I agree on Kennedy; it’s time.)

I will also add that any and all discussions of NOT bringing back Miles were premised on the notion that Kennedy would be on the roster all season. Miles is not good, but he’s better than Kennedy and I see no indication that Kennedy will improve. It’s a waste of a roster spot to have both on the roster and Miles is better. It’s time to say goodbye.

by chuckb on May 23, 2008 10:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

it hurts but

Hoffpauir isn’t really performing well enough at AAA for me to argue for him—although I think he could still be useful for a few years. I’d certainly prefer Ryan’s defense and speed at second over Miles but so long as it isn’t Kennedy, it’s the right decision.

by azruavatar on May 23, 2008 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agreee

After watching spring training and the early part of the season I could not believe people said Kennedy looked good. I had said he looks awful and I don’t care what his average is because it is clear he has zero and I mean zero pop. He just rolls over the ball and in spring training and early in the season his rolling grounders just found holes. I can’t believe how fast he fell, I think it is time to cut bait with Kennedy.

I think that Iz should play SS and Ryan should play 2B and Miles can be the back up player.

by ICbirdfan on May 23, 2008 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My own feelings with Kennedy

...Mirror yours. Dan and Al spent the entire first part of the season practically giddy over Kennedy’s results, never once mentioning that he was still a hacker who still did nothing but beat the ball into the dirt. He’s still doing that, and go figure his numbers have tumbled again.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on May 23, 2008 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What would you think

of picking up Marcus Giles?

He’s looked terrible the last two seasons: I thought his 2006 problems were caused by being miscast as a leadoff hitter. His 2007 season can’t be blamed on Petco, as his road line wasn’t anything to click your heels together over.

But he hit well in spring training this year, has home run power, won’t cost much, and would be more sutied to platoon with Miles than Kennedy—since Miles hits RHP better.

If Mo decides to DFA Kennedy, he’d need to bring in someone. I’d be pretty pleased with a few weeks of Miles at 2nd, Mather up, and Giles getting his game together at AAA.

by liam on May 23, 2008 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Couldn't hurt right?

Kennedy just doesn’t serve any function on this team right now. He’s a sunk cost. If they wanted to bring in Giles, I’d probably cut D’Angelo Jimenez lose too so Hoffpauir and/or Freese don’t lose time to a pair of old washed up reclamation projects.

by azruavatar on May 23, 2008 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

your post underscores

the biggest anomaly of this roster: Why in the word does a team need four middle infielders?

by DCGreg on May 23, 2008 10:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

because we don't need 6 outfielders

We have a solid first baseman and third baseman.

The question is really “why can’t we have 4 better middle infielders who can hit for power?”

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 23, 2008 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, because

middle infielders who can hit for power are hard to find as so much of this thread shows.

The point is that there’s no need for four middle infielders, so it makes sense to drop one and add an outfielder with some pop (i.e., Mather).

by DCGreg on May 23, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is enough battle

here on this board for the 5 outfielders as it is (and the Cards have their hands full trying to get AB’s for each of them now), and if you throw in Mather…..sigh….. you just will not have enough AB’s to keep them all fresh. Mather is being groomed as a outfielder, not 2B or SS or even 3B. I’d rather move Duncan (via trade or Memphis) to bring up Mather then having 6 outfielders.
I agree power off the bench is non-existant….. but I think a few more weeks will see that will change once the Cards see if they are contenders or pretenders.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 23, 2008 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Most NL teams

find it necessary to carry 6 infielders, particularly if - as is true for the Cardinals - none of the outfielders or catchers can play IF positions other than first base. It’s an interesting exercise to look through the way other NL teams approach roster construction. There are considerable team-to-team variations. Ours is remarkably main-stream; some only carry 3 nominal outfielders, although they have infielders and catchers who can roam the pasture in an emergency.

I wouldn’t want to cut back on the number of IFs carried, exactly because there are no strong hitters in the crowd. The need to get a pinch hitter in there to exploit platoon swings is particularly great if the guy you/re pinch-hitting for is a bad hitter to begin with (which describes our IF situation), but at the same time, you can’t do it in a way that leaves you without anyone able to play the IF positions. At times like this, having a Spiezio or Marrero or other super-sub has its value. However, we ain’t got one, nor are any looming in the minors. Lacking that, the 6-IF approach looks necessary to me.

by StanTheManFan on May 23, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Middle infield seems to be

the only tru weak link right now. Well, and the shaky bullpen, but I agree that the kids in the ‘pen are doing very well so far.

I wonder if some of the pitching and outfield talent might be packaged for an impact bat middle infielde. Who that would be, I have no idea.

"Is this Heaven?"
"No, it;s Iowa."
"I could've sworn it was Heaven."

by MilCardFan on May 23, 2008 10:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

As Az mentioned in his post today

We have a great bullpen. It’s just (almost) all in Memphis.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 23, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would be willing to bet

that Kennedy has a hang nail or foot fungus or some “injury” as bad as Izzy’s. If they don’t have the nerver to DFA him then they could at least disable him so they can see what Mather can do with big league pitching.

That way if Mather is just so-so and they can’t find him enough ABs they can just reactivate Kennedy and send Mather back down without the stigma of having “failed”.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 23, 2008 10:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Foot fungus?

I like it. That would be a good one. Perhaps he could fall asleep in a tanning bed and give himself a severe sunburn, forcing him out of the lineup for awhile.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on May 23, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's the kind of thing that can happen

on an off day in southern california… fall asleep on the beach, wake up in intensive care.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 23, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I once...

...read an article about all of the goofy injuries that occured during Ripken’s 2,632 games streak. The tanning bed one was my favorite, with Sammy Sosa’s torn-back-muscle-while-sneezing injury in second. Coming in third was a story about one guy who missed a few games after being scratched in the eye with a feather from a pillow.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on May 23, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not during the streak

but Zumaya’s guitar hero injury is a modern classic.

And Zambrano’s arm injury from text-messaging his brother or whatever too much is hilarious.

by liam on May 23, 2008 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lol w/ Zumaya and Guitar Hero

He’s also been quite unfortunate…he also had a box fall on his arm while moving stuff at his parents’ house as well as torn some ligaments in his finger from gripping the ball too tightly or something wierd like that. The last two aren’t funny, but the Guitar Hero one is quite hilarious.

Here are some more odd/funny ones:
  • Wade Boggs sprained his back while puting on his boots.
  • Bret Barberie rubbed chili juice in his eye.
  • Paul Molitor dislocated a finger puting it in someone else’s glove.
  • Griffey Junior pinched a nut when his cup slipped (that sounds ridiculously painful BTW)
  • Steve Sparks disclocated a shoulder trying to rip a phonebook in half.
  • Glenallen Hill dreamt that spiders were devouring him, jumped off his bed, fell through a glass table, and crawled through the shards of glass. That’s REALLY wierd.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on May 23, 2008 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget

Clint Barmes falling down a flight of stairs while carrying a slab of deer he’d gotten from Todd Helton.

by liam on May 23, 2008 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Josias Manzanilla

took a line drive off the gonads while pitching for Seattle and had to have testicle surgery as he WAS NOT WEARING A CUP.

I made sure all my youth baseball teams got the Josias Manzanilla speech every spring along with the obligatory cup check.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 23, 2008 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Although

Wearing a cup is apparently dangerous too, given the Griffey injury.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on May 24, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd love to see a package for a MI

but I don’t think Duncan is movable at this point…in terms of our outfield talent, teams would more interested in Studwick or Ankiel…maybe even Barton if he were freed up. If Mather continues to rake, he could be a part of a deal, perhaps, too (and don’t forget, even with his struggles, everyone would want Colby). Garcia would have to be in there as a lynchpin.

I keep hoping the Cards will make a deal with Cleveland so they can option Barton and then bring up Mather…would be interesting to see what TLR would do with the lineup then…Ank, Glaus and Mather behind Pujols and Studdy leading off against lefties?? Hmm…just like hairless pets…weird.

by jim of beam on May 23, 2008 11:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That would be a bad idea

if Barton is replaced by Mather, all that means is Mather will get 200 ABs this season.

by Hardcore Legend on May 23, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Skippy @ SS

Skippy started out his professional career as a SS then was converted to OF. Man, I wish Skippy still was a SS. I wonder if there is any chance he could be converted back to SS in winter ball. We know he has a cannon for an arm. I’m sure he’s got range. But there is that little problem of fielding ground balls. Anybody out there actually see Skip play SS in the minors?

by jjray on May 23, 2008 12:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm a big fan of this option

convert skip back to middle infielder. but as someone mentioned earlier, they should have been trying that out in spring training. not a big fan of bringing up mather yet, since there’s an OF glut (maybe some kind of trade will change this)

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 23, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would like to see them try Barton out at 2B.

I think he is athletic enough and has the smarts to play 2B. Maybe he gets bored standing in the outfield. His bat would definetly be a plus plus at 2B.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 23, 2008 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe he gets bored?

Am I missing something in these games that somehow Barton is a bad defender or is it just a continuing of the myth? He’s made 1 bad throw (the throw in Pittsburgh) and that’s it. Everything else he has done well with.

by Hardcore Legend on May 23, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not a bad defender

just no way to tell anyway (too small sample size)

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 23, 2008 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Spectrum, baby, spectrum

Maybe there was a reason Skip, and Mather, and all these other guys we talk about moving around the diamond were moved in the first place. Maybe that reason is because they were no good at their original position. Or maybe their hitting took off once they were freed from that position and moved to an easier one.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on May 23, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where did this come from?

Somebody look through the box scores from Skip’s senior season at UCSB and point to a game where he didn’t play CF.

He never played a game in the infield his pro rookie season.

Or the next year.

Nobody saw him play SS in the minors because he never did! Not one solitary inning.

Lots of very talented baseball players were pitcher/shortstops in HS and converted to their natural positions once they joined teams with other very talented players. Skip Schumaker’s a very good defensive outfielder.

by liam on May 23, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Great post

The Skip to 2nd stuff is farcical.

The reason guys play OF is because they generally can’t play somewhere else. If Skip could play 2B and hit like he has, we would have been in the big leagues three or four years ago. He doesn’t play second base because HE CAN’T PLAY SECOND BASE.

(Read JSL Live for Strauss’ putdown of this one).

And one other thing; virtually every player drafted was a SS, CF, C, or pitcher, especially from HS. If you aren’t good enough to play SS at high school (unless left handed), you aren’t good enough to be drafted, period.

Dave

by SydneyDave on May 23, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you guys are no fun.

let us dream!

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 23, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hey dude

antying is possible

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 23, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes

ant ying is possible

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 23, 2008 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is ant ying

from China?

Made several typos myself today….. spoiled by spellcheck I guess (or just to freaking lazy to check before I post)

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 23, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's because

I’m used to the live game thread and you try to post as fast as possible to avoid the thing moving on you when new posts come in. that and I’m at work so I gotsta be stealthy

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 23, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Different direction...

I’m also willing to stay up to watch Kershaw pitch. That guy has one of the dirtiest deuces I’ve seen, right up there with Ankiel’s back in the day, and he has done nothing but shred the minor leagues as a 20 year old kid. The Dodgers have themselves a pretty good bunch of young talent with him, Kemp, Loney, Ethier, Martin, DeWitt (from Sikeston), and LaRoche. Exciting time to be a Dodger fan.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on May 23, 2008 12:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The first two conjuncts

of your second sentence were just filthy, man.

by liam on May 23, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget Hu

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 23, 2008 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And there are many more...

Hu, Guo, Broxton, Billingsley, McDonald, DeJesus, WIthrow, Meloan etc…
... and there are more.
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on May 23, 2008 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I posted this at the beginning of the season

that our middle infield would be the biggest problem: especially when starting izturis and kennedy. if we avoid that combination, I think it will work out a little better

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 23, 2008 1:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm curious what our record is with that lineup?

Vs Izturis/Miles, Izturis/Ryan, Ryan/Miles, etc etc…

by paposse on May 23, 2008 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hmmm

I’m curious too. but lazy :)

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 23, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think I got it right

for SS/2B combo

Izturis/Miles = 4-6

Izturis/Ryan = has not happed yet

Ryan/Miles = 5-0

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 23, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Play Ryan/Miles!!

Let’s see… we’re 28-21, which means we could still finish 141-21 with this combo!! Well, I’ll be realistic and say 135-27, since we’d have to give one of them a day off every now and then.

I love small sample sizes.

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 23, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't realize...

that Iz2 and Ryan hadn’t started the same game yet. I would think that would be our best lineup option overall…particularly defensively. So we’re 9-6 without Kennedy and 19-15 with him…hmph…what about:

Miles/Kennedy – this should only happen in extreme situations!!!
Iz2/Kennedy
Ryan/Kennedy

by cardzfanbub on May 23, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not unless we want a repeat

of the SF game last yr. Three errors in one inning :((

by gocards62 on May 23, 2008 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know I saw a game this year with Ryan/Izturis combo

I don’t remember when it was but I do remember seeing them start together. It was only a couple of weeks ago. I wish I could remember which game it was.

by indakind on May 23, 2008 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Found it

Game 30 5/2 against the Cubs. Cards won 5-3 on Schumaker’s 11th inning walk-off. I know why I remember…I was at that game. Also happened in Game 42 a 5-1 win over PIT with Wellemeyer on the mound. Thus with Ryan at 2B and Izturis at SS the Cards are 2-0.

by indakind on May 23, 2008 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was doing the same thing you did

They played together the next day, too.

And on May 8th, it was an infield, right to left, of Pujols – Kennedy – Izturis – Ryan

by liam on May 23, 2008 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd like to more of the ryan/miles combo

and try out the izturis/ryan too.
oh yeah, the ryan/miles combo fits nicely with the ops post

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 23, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Itz2/Ryan 2-2

May 2 W, May 3 L, May 13 L, May 14 W

by ubeddie on May 23, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oops

Just posted above that they were 2-0 with this combo but I missed two games b/c I was only looking for Ryan in the 9 spot.

by indakind on May 23, 2008 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Izturis/Ryan did happen

sorry for the misinformation

2-2 is their record together

going blind looking at all the stats

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 23, 2008 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Izturis / Ryan would be the best combination in my opinion

Izturis at SS, Ryan at 2b.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on May 23, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wainwright's wicked curve

Apologies if this has been discussed before…maybe I missed it. There is an article in today’s WSJ about pitch f/x (subs. only) http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121149546083915647.html?mod=at_leisure_main_reviews_days_only

One of the highlights of the article, other than a good explanation of how this was put into place was this quote about Wainwright’s curve:


Pitch f/x starts baseball down the path of learning how players do things—which batter hits the ball the hardest, which shortstop has the quickest reflexes, what pitcher has the nastiest slider. It showed, for instance, that St. Louis Cardinals pitcher Adam Wainwright had one of baseball’s most violent curve balls in 2007, with up to nine inches of vertical drop and more than seven inches of horizontal movement. Perhaps consequently, Mr. Wainwright had an unusually high rate of swings-and-misses against his curve (38% versus a league average of a little more than 25%), according to a sampling of data by Harry Pavlidis, a baseball analyst who writes a prominent blog about the Chicago Cubs.

"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~8-year-old Greg

by ChiTown CardFan on May 23, 2008 2:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

wow

didn’t realize Wainer had the best curve! I knew it was good, but not quite that good. really wish I could watch tonight’s game (if I’m even still at home by the time it starts)

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 23, 2008 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent article.

Thanks for pointing it out.

by liam on May 23, 2008 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carlos Beltran agrees ;)

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 23, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Blocked Prospects

Looking at next years pitiful MI free agents doesn’t it only make sense to make a trade with someone that has a blocked prospect at 2B or SS?

Someone like Brent Lillibridge in the Braves organization

by FlimtotheFlam on May 23, 2008 2:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Horacio Ramirez: three words

Minor. League. Contract.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 23, 2008 3:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

4 words

Still Not Worth It

by azruavatar on May 23, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's pretty ridiculous

He’s a very cheap project signed to a non-guranteed contract. Every organization has guys like this in their system, including the Cardinals.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 23, 2008 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

John Wasdin

Enough said.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on May 23, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

At least

they didn’t give up Rafael Soriano for him. (Who should be back soon).

by liam on May 23, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

gotta agree w/ NYRoyal

not worth it? Where’s the risk in the minor league contract? Azru, i think you’re just being contrary.

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on May 23, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ramirez

He’s as likely to benefit the Royals organization as Mike Maroth was, and I wouldn’t expect him to stick around any longer.

No risk, sure, but if he contributes anything more than poor innings in Omaha I’ll eat some more of my hat.

by liam on May 23, 2008 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cardinals to miss Kershaw

Most likely he would pitch at Wrigley or Shea if need be. Check out this link.
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on May 23, 2008 4:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The Cardinals Organization has made a few

“pointless” pickups the past few years that have paid off—Wellemeyer being the best current example

Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!
(now accepting applications)

PUT SKIP ON THE BALLOT!!!

by stltrav09 on May 23, 2008 4:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

But he didn't really block anyone

other than the ‘Hated One’ as far as young pitchers. And the Cardinals were contending. I hope the Royals aren’t harboring delusions of contending this year.

by Hardcore Legend on May 23, 2008 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True

but it’s low risk.. and as long as he’s in AA he’s not really blocking anyone that’s part of the plans of the immediate future.

Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!
(now accepting applications)

PUT SKIP ON THE BALLOT!!!

by stltrav09 on May 23, 2008 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting threads on MIFs

Anyone care to speculate on the time table for Peter Kozma? Springfield this year? Others in the system? Barden at Memphis in Kennedy is dispatched?

by akaitori on May 23, 2008 5:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Kozma will probably see Palm Beach later this year

Springfield is a stretch. ETA of late 2010 is optimistic but not unreasonable. More likely mid-2011 at age 23 or so.

by azruavatar on May 23, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll speculate on anything

Kozma will move up before May’s over and finish 2008 at Palm Beach, go to the AFL, and begin 2009 at Springfield if he continues to bat well.

I don’t see Barden coming up until rosters expand unless Glaus is injured. He’s out of options and it sure looks like he’s gotten his swing back to where it was in his legit prospect days.

Waiting to see a little more out of Jose Martinez, who I thought belonged at AAA instead of AA this year. I imagine he’ll be promoted once Dan Nelson comes off the DL (don’t know what the timetable is on that), and that’ll most likely coincide with D’Angelo being released. Looking forward to a mix of Hoff, Martinez, and Barden working the middle infield in Memphis through the summer.

by liam on May 23, 2008 5:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Oops

meant to attach this to akaitori’s MIF speculation.

by liam on May 23, 2008 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

your non reply to this

got me. That’s what I get for not reading ahead one comment.

Also, I kind of miss the times when one poor commenter would get 50 reply to this comments back.

by azruavatar on May 23, 2008 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols' MASSIVE San Diego HR really went....

405’

Yep, Bird Land today talks about the guy at Hittracker.com that looks for true distance of home runs. His “bomb” really only went 405’ based on speed off the bat, angle, time in the air, and where it hit the building (356’ from home plate).

by StLHugo on May 23, 2008 6:34 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Definitely, and 405 isn't that surprising

You get the most bat-speed when you’re pulling to the “power alley”...hence the name. But clearing the fence by 75 feet gets the job done…9/11 home runs are out in all 30 parks…imagine what he’d be doing in a homer box like Cincinatti.

With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch

by joker24 on May 23, 2008 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey Pirates, have some pride

Good God, they are losing to the Cubs YET AGAIN. That’ll be what, 1-9? And it’s not like they’ve just got their skull pounded in either. They’ve GIVEN games away (remember Bautista’s late game bunt?).

Maybe the Pirates announcers are right, Pittsburgh really does belong in the NL East. They say it’s because of the timezone. I say it’s because they seem to giving games and players to the Cubs the last half decade.

by Hardcore Legend on May 23, 2008 7:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Tonight's game on MLB.TV

Looking forward to hearing Vin Scully call the game. Always try my best to catch at least a little bit of Dodger home games on MLB.TV.

by lightbulb on May 23, 2008 7:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I had completely forgotten about that!

Really looking forward to the game now!!

Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!
(now accepting applications)

PUT SKIP ON THE BALLOT!!!

by stltrav09 on May 23, 2008 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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