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Corrections, Retractions, and Clarifications

What an awful game last night. The offense just absolutely couldn't get anything going against Maddux, and Joel just couldn't quite hold the Padres' offense down. Of course, I suppose you just have to expect that sometimes when you're facing a Hall of Famer; comes with the territory. Still, it was frustrating to watch, especially when they failed to push across a single tally against Trevor Hoffman, who's been all too hittable this year, yet managed to set the Cards down in order. Personally, I felt bad that Maddux wasn't able to get the win. If you're going to lose the game, at least you would like to see the win go to a guy like that.

I really hope that this little cold streak of Brian Barton's doesn't land him back on the bench. I happen to be of the belief that his limited, (and all too sporadic) playing time is probably the single biggest factor in his recent struggles. Early in the year, Tony made sure that CrabMan was receiving at least fairly regular playing time, aided by the fact that the Cardinals saw quite a few lefthanded pitchers the first month. Unfortunately, though, (at least for Barton) the other outfielders have all played well enough so as to make it extremely difficult to justify sitting them down, leading to a severe downturn in the number of chances Barton has had to get in the game. The one real exception has been Duncan, who hasn't been great, but he's been adequate and, really, profiles so differently from everyone's favourite rocket scientist that it's hard to really just directly substitute one for the other. Barton right now just looks badly out of whack, not really at game speed. He looks tentative as well; he's well aware he's struggling, and isn't playing with any confidence and conviction at the moment. The only solution, in my opinion, is to let him play through it, and get back on track. Unfortunately, what will probably happen is he'll get stuck back on the bench, get three at bats in the next week and a half, and continue to struggle, thus justifying his limited playing time. La Russa is one of the best managers in baseball when it comes to getting his players in the game to keep them sharp. I think he needs to try and keep CrabMan on the field a little more regularly going forward.

But I'm not here to talk about last night's game. I'm here for something a little different.

Last Wednesday, I posted my first quarter report card for the Cardinals. The piece received nearly 300 comments, generated a ton of debate, and prompted me to think to myself, "hey, maybe I should just grade things. I wouldn't have to think of nearly as many ideas for stuff to write about, and everybody seems to have an opinion! It's all so simple!"

Of course, I'm sure that eventually, and probably sooner rather than later, you would all get tired of reading endless grades and show up at my house with pliers to damage my hands and prevent me from typing anymore. Well, ha! You can't break my hands! I don't even have hands! You know how everyone thinks that Azruavatar may be a big computer? Well, the joke's on you, folks. I'm actually the computerized one. I just happen to be an effete English computer, so it's much harder to tell. So there.

Anyway, I was reading through the discussion of my report last week, and there was a ton of great points, and then great counterpoints, and so on. And as I read, I started really considering my positions, and in some cases reconsidering them. So, I thought I would respond to some points other people made, and try to clarify some of my own.

First off, the point was raised that my grading perhaps wasn't based on proper methodology. I stated myself in the section on the starting pitching that I don't like to give out A's this early in the season. Someone quite astutely pointed out that, since the grade was based on just the first quarter of the season, there was really no reason to say I don't give out A's this early, since the grade shouldn't have anything to do with the rest of the year. And you know what? That's absolutely correct. I wasn't really applying a proper standard to my grades. Thus, I'm upgrading the mark for the Cardinal starting rotation from a B+ to an A-. The starters have given us far more than we could have expected so far, and have been by far the biggest reason why the Cards find themselves in a position of real contention. There have been a few bumps in the road, particularly by Pineiro and, lately, Lohse, so I'm not giving a straight A. So, an A- for the starters.

Someone also took exception to my grading of the catchers. I said they hadn't really contributed anything; so I gave them a C. The poster contended otherwise. Again, I think I was probably wrong.

A large part of that grade was probably based on my personal bias anyway. I happen to be one of those people who believe that catcher defense may be the single most overrated aspect of the game of baseball. I don't mean to imply that it doesn't matter at all, because it does. But I feel that the law of Diminishing Returns kicks in with a vengeance as you go up the ladder of catcher defense. An horrific catcher can, in fact, hurt you. A lot. But as you progress upwards, the difference between catchers becomes almost nil in a hurry. An average defensive catcher, in my mind, offers nearly the same benefits as a truly elite defensive catcher. I simply don't believe the running game is a nearly important enough part of the game to make a huge difference in the outcome, and I think the whole idea of a catcher 'handling' a pitching staff is largely a myth. The game plan is worked out well ahead of time, and ultimately, the pitcher has to throw what he's comfortable with. Again, a truly bad catcher who can't work with pitchers will hurt your team in a significant way; we all remember watching Einar Diaz struggle to get on the same page as his pitchers, right? But the difference between even an average guy behind the plate and the absolute elite guys is very, very small. Give me a catcher who can hit.

All that being said, Yadier does absolutely contribute outs with his arm. Trust me, I enjoy watching him gun down runners as much as the next guy; I just don't think it's quite the trump card some others do. Yadi has also hit quite well this year, by his standards. And I don't say that to denigrate him, it's just a fact. Yadi is a serviceable hitter but not a great one. By those standards, he's been very good this year.

Bottom line, I probably sold Yadi short. I panned his contributions based largely on what I would like to see from a catcher, rather than what he has actually brought to the table. I'm revising the grade upward here a full letter grade to a B.

When I spoke of the outfield, I referred to Skip Schumaker as the best surprise so far. Several people took me to task for it, claiming Ludwick should have been mentioned. Please let me clarify.

The thing is, I really like Ludwick. I do. I thought last year that he looked like he could start for the Cardinals regularly. I thought, with regular playing time, he could probably be a serviceable player. Now, of course, I never thought he would be anything like this, but it still remains to be seen how long he can keep up such a pace. He's bound to come down. Still, though, if he can avoid huge dropoffs in his power numbers, he'll still be an incredibly valuable piece.

Skip, on the other hand, I didn't see as a Major League player coming into the season. I thought he was, at best, a 5th outfielder, a guy miscast by getting so many at bats. In other words, I saw him as the Aaron Miles of the outfield.

Schumaker, though, improved his plate discipline. He improved his ability to drive the ball. In other words, he turned himself into a pretty decent Major League hitter. He's not a world beater, but I think he can be serviceable as at least a platoon player with plus defense. I didn't think he would ever end up being that good. That's why I called him the surprise so far. Ludwick has been the best outfielder, even before his recent insane binge. But I saw real talent in Ludwick. I saw serious bat speed, if nothing else. I didn't see Skip's improvement coming; it took me completely unawares. That's why he's the biggest surprise to me.

I stand by my grades of the middle infield and bullpen. Both have done their very best to mediocrify the team so far. Izturis has played nice defense, but he still sucks with the stick. The bullpen, best not to mention. Maybe the halfway grade will be better now that Chris "The Terrible" Perez is up with the big club.

Lastly, I said in my original post that I wasn't a fan of Dave Duncan. I was referring to my previously published statements, and I thought it was a fairly innocuous comment, considering I was just referring to a long held position of mine. Several people called me on it, questioning my credibility and asking just what my problem with Duncan could possibly be. Even Houstoncardinal, though he didn't disagree with me, said he wished I had backed up my comments with some reasoning. So, I thought I would do so now.

As I said before, I'm not a big fan of Dave Duncan, and there a few reasons why. First off, both he and La Russa seem to me to be overly hidebound, rigid, and dogmatic in their approaches. The real difference I've seen in Tony is that, at least in certain cases, he's been able to rise above himself and do what's best for the team, even when it goes against his own personal patterns. I don't really see Duncan doing much of the same. As Lboros pointed out in last week's comments, Duncan's staffs pretty much always rank near the top of the league in GO/AO ratio, and near the bottom of the league in K rate. Duncan has really only one blueprint for success, and anyone who struggles to adapt to his way is labeled as being hard to work with.

Second, I think Duncan's ability to spot talent is vastly overrated. Duncan tends to get tons of credit for all the reclamation projects he's successfully executed, but the guys he couldn't do anything with are largely forgotten. There have been plenty of successes, with guys like Woody Wiliams and, now, Todd Wellemeyer flourishing under Duncan's tutelage. But what about Dustin Hermanson, who Duncan never could get much out of, but who was very successful pitching for Chicago out of the bullpen, until his back began to hurt his career? Jason Marquis had one great year here and then two awful ones. Why does Duncan get all the credit for the good year, but no blame for not being able to get through to Jason the other two years? Or what about a guy like Jose Rijo in Oakland? He struggled to adapt to the philosophy there, but really took off after he left. We praise Duncan for helping out certain guys, and just ignore all the failures. Kip Wells was Duncan's dream pitcher; Duncan personally appealed to the front office to bring Wells in. We all saw Kip Wells pitch last year, right? Why couldn't Duncan work with the Kipper, since it was supposedly such a perfect fit?

Then, of course, all the pitchers who failed to excel under Duncan are branded as knuckleheads, as stubborn, as problem children. But for every Todd Wellemeyer that blossoms under Duncan, there's a Brett Tomko, whom the man just couldn't figure out. Why does Duncan get all the credit for the pitchers who have success, but the failures are all on the player alone?

Third, and most importantly, I think Duncan is a tinkerer, to a fault. There are some people who like to take things apart. My brother is one of them. When he ran away from home, at 16, he ended up buying an old Ford LTD for $200. He tore the engine apart, rebuilt it, and ended up driving the thing around for a year, until it was impounded later. (long story) Some people are great at that sort of thing. You give them an old rust bucket, they can break it down, put it back together, and end up salvaging some real value out of something that everyone else thought was just junk.

But what happens when you give one of these people a brand new Corvette? Right out of the showroom, the odometer sitting at 35 miles. Beautiful car. All you have to do is put the keys in the ignition and drive it away. Just do the standard maintenance.

But here's where Duncan can't seem to help himself. He still wants to tear it apart, despite the fact that it works just fine as it it.

Anthony Reyes is, of course, the poster boy for this situation, but I think Rick Ankiel is just as good of an example, even if very few of us remember why. Reyes's struggles are well documented on this site, with myself, and others, believing that the adjustments he tried to make, in order to fit in with a style that he simply couldn't execute, is the largest reason why he's fallen so far. But Ankiel, what about him?

When Rick Ankiel came to the big leagues, he seemed almost too good to be true. He had the power stuff, he had the breaking ball, and he had that aura of invincibility, that he would never be beaten. He should have been every pitching coaches' dream. Just give him the game plan, take a trip out to the mound to calm him down every once in a while, and mostly just stay the hell out of the way. But Duncan couldn't do that. It's been largely forgotten, with the way the story ended up going, but there was a lot of talk during Rick's rookie season about changing his mechanics. He threw slightly across his body, which, by the way, isn't at all unusual for a lefty. It wasn't seen as an injury concern, because it wasn't extreme enough that anyone really thought it would cause problems. But nonetheless, Duncan worked on altering Rick's delivery, getting him to open up earlier, getting him on more of a straight line to the plate. They worked on teaching him a sinker too. Is that a problem? Not necessarily, but I question the wisdom of trying to teach a 20 year old kid a new pitch during his rookie season, during a pennant race, while also messing with his mechanics.

Of course, we all saw how if played out. And when it came right down to it, we all said it would have happened no matter what; the kid was obviously a headcase. But I wonder if that's really true? I wonder if things would have happened the same way if, when Ankiel was standing on that mound in October of 2000, trying desperately to find some way to get back on track, he hadn't been struggling with a new delivery that he'd only been using for about three months? Matheny wasn't there to help him, true, but should Rick have been out there doing something different than he had his whole life anyway? I just question the wisdom of trying to make alterations to a kid's game in the middle of the season, in a pennant race, when the player in question is already trying to adjust to life on the road, the major league schedule, and, in Ankiel's case, a family life that was just collapsing around him. Perhaps it would have happened either way. Perhaps he is just a head case. But I wonder, if he had had the touchstone of the same delivery he had used for most of his life, would Rick have been able to get it together, to just let his body take over?

If his delivery had really been that much of a concern, it should have been addressed long before he ever got to that mound in October. The minor leagues are there for a reason. They're there for developing players, for moulding players. The major league level is nowhere to be trying to change a player's approach. The guys up here are too good. If you're not 100% prepared, they'll tear you apart. In my mind, Ankiel should never have been placed in that situation, trying to deal with a new delivery and a new pitch on top of all the pressure that anyone would feel starting game one of a playoff series. Those things should have all been worked on in the minors, or the winter, or Spring Training, or not at all. A pennant race is no place to make changes.

All right. With all of the above changes, my overall grade for the team slides up to a solid B, from a B-. I encourage all of you to continue eviscerating me further. I do so enjoy the debates.

By the way, everyone, I do sincerely apologise for the ridiculously late post. My real life, (read: work) is interfering with my writing at the moment. It shouldn't be this way going forward, but I may have to rearrange my schedule a bit for the moment. It's only temporary anyway, but still a pain in the ass. Again, I do apologise to everyone.

Farewell, friends.

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Nothing wrong with grading things

helps people like me who don’t see the Cards every day get an idea of what’s going. Grade the 5 tools of each outfielder. Grade the range of each infielder. Etc.

by sdrone on May 21, 2008 2:51 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought I was the only one that rememberd the attempts to fix Ankiel

The other one that jumps out at me was our attempts to fix Mulder. I remember reading the BP article when he first got hurt here and the comments were the injury looked recent.

Duncan’s approach tends to avoid using the lower body when throwing, prefering instead to get up high and throw the ball down. I am convinced this has led to some of the injury problems we have had as a team.

Also see the cardinal preference for more sliders and fewer changeups.

by DriverZn on May 21, 2008 3:15 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't really think we've had an abnormal number of injuries here
Duncan’s approach tends to avoid using the lower body when throwing

it was on this very blog: he didn’t change him mechanically

This isn’t right. Carpenter had about as aggressive a hip movement as you see in baseball. Before anyone brings up Reyes, it was on this very blog: he didn’t change him.

Mulder’s shoulder was already hurting when he got here, you can’t say whether Duncan changed him (I doubt it) or Mulder was forced to change himself a result of “discomfort”.

With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch

by joker24 on May 21, 2008 6:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Formatting error.......

With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch

by joker24 on May 21, 2008 6:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

agree........

I am calling bull sh** on more injuries in the STL org.

by ICbirdfan on May 21, 2008 6:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thirded...

... Oakland and the Cubs seem to win those honors. and now that Dusty’s in Cinci, we can expect all those young pitchers to have major injuries in a year or so.

by kindred on May 21, 2008 8:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know that Skip has established anything

He was hot for a couple of weeks, and has had some “clutch” hits, but his .261/.311/.333 (.644 OPS) line over the last month (4/20-5/20) does seem to me to be very “aaron miles in the outfield”-ish. His plate discipline looked good for a while there, but he’s really gone off a cliff lately (.585 OPS in may, 3 walks in 71 PA). His OPS for the season is now .738 and if he doesn’t start taking walks again, that is going to continue to plummet.

And while I’m complaining, Adam Kennedy’s slugging percentage is now less than Brendan Ryan’s batting average. With Izturis and miles somehow both putting up .700+ OPS’s, the second base depth chart needs to be revisited.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 21, 2008 3:26 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Adam Kennedy

what is the plan for this guy?

The cardinals can not continue to play him, but it’s not like there are any good young options to bring up for him. I think Iz should play SS and Ryan should play 2B like I have been saying for over a month now.

by ICbirdfan on May 21, 2008 3:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Get Barton another glove

and have Oquendo work with him on the pivot :)

by gocards62 on May 21, 2008 5:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hmmm

maybe somebody is finally listening to us, IC…

“And don’t think La Russa hasn’t noticed that the Cardinals are 8-5 in games Ryan starts.”

Please, please tell me that isn’t the way larussa makes lineup decisions…

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 21, 2008 6:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

God help us

Start Wellemeyer every time!!!!!

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 21, 2008 6:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that quote makes me nauseous

I’m opening spreadsheets for comfort.

by azruavatar on May 21, 2008 7:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think it's possible...

to still like Duncan, while admitting that he’s not perfect. He has had some wonderful successes, and I would argue a better track record than many of his contemporaries. One pitcher that (to my knowledge) hasn’t been mentioned as a success story is Chris Carpenter. Granted, the injuries may be partly due to Duncan’s tutelage, but he was(is?) one of the major league’s premier pitchers. Kip Wells and Carpenter had very comparable numbers before coming to StL. One of them failed, while the other became a Cy Young winner and contributed greatly to our ‘06 WS victory. I think it’s a case where you have to take the (sometimes very) bad with the (sometimes extremely) good.

I think this team has been better off (i.e. more wins, more postseason success) over the last decade with Duncan as pitching coach than it would have been with a “league average” pitching coach.

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 21, 2008 3:31 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rasmus

I asked this in last nights thread, but thought I’d ask it again here.

Anybody know why he hasn’t been playing much? Is he hurt? Just getting some time off after a bad start? I think he’s only seen an at bat or two in the last 4 games or so, unless I just missed him.

by SoonerfanTU on May 21, 2008 3:39 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i'm not your minor league expert around here

but i think it’s because he’s been struggling so much. coach probaly figured a few days off couldn’t hurt.

by stlcardinalsfang on May 21, 2008 3:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He started today

so far he is 0-3 with a BB 2 line drive outs and a K

I think he just sat out to get his mind off of the game for a bit.

by StLHugo on May 21, 2008 3:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not to start a massive debate

but someone posted something supposedly from his father in which his dad basically blames the organization for forcing Colby to be a ‘slap hitter’ or at the very least to only concern himself with taking the ball the other way and it has caused him to lose his swing.

by Hardcore Legend on May 21, 2008 4:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wonderful!

now we’re ruining our hitting prospects too!

by stlcardinalsfang on May 21, 2008 4:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

let's not go overboard

I love the blogs, message boards, etc. but it’s passing on unsubstantiated rumors like this that I don’t like. No one has any idea if that is what happened. And it’s Colby’s dad—-dads aren’t exactly the most objective creatures in the world.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on May 21, 2008 5:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I understand

That his father has since retracted those statements.

by indakind on May 21, 2008 4:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

From comments at FR

it sounds like his youngest son logged in with his dad’s screenname and wrote a whole ton of crazy over the weekend.

by liam on May 21, 2008 5:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Terrific post

I agree with almost everything that you said. I agree that Skip has been a pleasant surprise. I think that while he doesn’t have the most upside of the platooning outfielders, he is very capable of being a major league outfielder. I don’t know that the same can be said of Duncan anymore (I hope I’m wrong) and Barton will get his chance to prove himself but there is uncertainty there as well.

The comments on Duncan are interesting. He is praised constantly yet he does seem to avoid any flack regarding this staff. If this starting rotation ends the year mediocre, he should take some of that blame.

This team has proven it’s a lot better than advertised but it has a long way to go before I will truly believe they are contenders. Luckily, at the very least, this team is full of energy and youth and they will surprise from time to time. It’s a lot more than can be said of last year’s group

by riotmute on May 21, 2008 3:44 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm sick of the Duncan debate.

I see your points and they are valid.

All in all I’m happy with Dunc and the teams overall success. He seems to be contributing and that’s all right with me.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 21, 2008 3:56 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

to those impressive posters with an abundance of big lebowski quoting skills...

thank you. i fell asleep last night with the cardinals still ahead, and reading through the threads earlier today would have been a downer were it not also hilarious. always nice to see humor in the face of a tough loss. after all, the fan abides.

by mattybobo on May 21, 2008 4:13 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've got just one problem

Did we have to use so many cuss words?

by Andyfantastic on May 21, 2008 5:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is what happens when you [FIND] a stranger in the [ALPS]

That’s the dubbed version. Seriously.

With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch

by joker24 on May 21, 2008 6:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ahahahahh

That’s Fruiting Horrible.

Got a dirty mouth? Clean it up with orbit! WHAT THE FRENCH, TOAST?

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on May 21, 2008 6:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Speaking of participles related to journalism

Pineiro is quoted in the P-D story about last night’s game:

“Other than that I felt I had great stuff,” he said. “It’s just one of those things: One bad pitch turned the game around.”

The official website has this as the title of their story: One Bad PItch Dooms Pineiro, Cards

But, given the two walks, wasn’t it at least nine bad pitches? A single bad pitch doesn’t score three runs if eight bad pitches didn’t give Padres batters free passes and put the go-ahead run at the plate.

Luckily, TLR has it right in the P-D’s coverage:

“He made the pitcher’s cardinal sin: He walked the leadoff hitter with a two-run lead, walks the tying run and throws the ball down the middle and a guy hits a three-run homer. It’s not what he was trying to do, but you can’t get away with that in the big leagues. He had plenty of stuff. He just made a mistake and the hitter capitalized.”

by bgh on May 21, 2008 4:19 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes that was frustrating as hell....

Didn’t he walk tadahito iguchi? How do you walk him?

by ICbirdfan on May 21, 2008 4:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And if he that one pitch had been a weak grounder to short

we would have won.

There were other things leading up to that pitch that caused the damage, for sure, but he hung a breaking ball and it was crushed, which gave them the lead.

by Hardcore Legend on May 21, 2008 4:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A ball outside is potentially 1/4 of a walk

a hanging curve ball is likely a souvenir. Not that I don’t hate walks, especially leadoff walks, or can’t see your point. Still, if that hanging slider had been another ball, we probably wouldn’t be talking about the walks.

by random on May 21, 2008 5:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I kind of understand what he means.....my own son speaks in those terms......

well, he doesn’t refer to himself as “having great stuff” even when he does, he’s more modest than that. But yeah, one pitch to get that one last out that wasn’t made. A lot of pitchers talk like that….

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 21, 2008 5:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Did you see this

in today’s article about Pujols?

“I think they’re still going to be careful,” Pujols said. “It’s like I said earlier in the year: I’m here to take care of business and what I need to do, getting on base and creating some runs.”
Pujols reads Bill James, apparently.

by liam on May 21, 2008 5:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pujols tied for 2nd in league for "Runs Created"

Runs Created
Berkman-HOU 64
Jones-ATL 52
Pujols-STL 52
Uggla-FLA 47
Utley-PHI 46
Ludwick-STL 41
McLouth-PIT 41
Soto-CHC 40
Burrell-PHI 39
Holliday-COL 39

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 21, 2008 5:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tied with a guy hitting over .400

I like that we’ve got 2 guys in the top 6 of that list

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 21, 2008 6:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well said...

but i disagree about catching, esp when yadi is hitting, albeit for .265 GPA as his OBP is nearly .375. this plus the best overall defense in the game and good game calling.

otherwise, i am in step w/you baron.

by HoosierCardFan on May 21, 2008 4:41 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just wanted to voice my opinion on Barton.

I think he could be a big contributer some day, but honestly, I don’t think he’s major league caliber right now. I know he has to stick on the roster for the year, but after that, I’d be surprised if he’s with the big club in ‘09.

I agree that he needs more regular playing time, but it would be nice if he was able to get it in Memphis.

by mikeonthecards on May 21, 2008 4:47 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Barton

I too think that Barton has a very nice future. However, the Cards may well have a superior player in Mather who would really fill a need for lineup thump especially against LH pitching. It seems to me that the path of least resistance for the Cards to open up an outfield spot would be to return Barton to Cleveland (who could certainly use him) and bring up Mather.

by indakind on May 21, 2008 4:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Clarification

Just to clarify…I don’t think that this is necessarily the correct course of action. I think the correct course would be to move Duncan in a package to an AL team for prospects. However, I think that returning Barton to CLE is the easiest way for the Cards to open up opportunities in the OF.

by indakind on May 21, 2008 4:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As I was typing a response, you posted this

I was going to say the path of least resistance would be to move one of our LH OF if we need to add someone to use against LHP.

I can’t envision a Cardinals team that has both Skippy and Duncan on the roster past September 1st.

Schumaker should thank his lucky stars that Barton is going through a funk at the same time he is, or else Skippy would be hearing the boo birds from the rafters. He’s a leadoff hitter that can’t get on base.

by Hardcore Legend on May 21, 2008 4:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree

I just think that the tea leaves portend a return to CLE for Barton. It is much too easy compared to finding a trade partner.

by indakind on May 21, 2008 5:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

boos?

That seems a bit harsh for Skip. That said he has struggled recently. He needs to turn it back on a bit and start getting on base. If he can sustain a .750 OPS he is a decent/not great leadoff option.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on May 21, 2008 5:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Um, thats pretty bad for a corner OF

Funny how when Juan put up better than Skippy numbers we were all over him. But if skip does it, somhow its ok because he is gritty.

I’ll take good over gritty any day.

by DriverZn on May 21, 2008 5:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think people were pretty irrational about Juan, actually

Thye didn’t like him because he sort of looked lackadasical or something. He was neither that big of a contract or as bad as he was made out to be.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 21, 2008 5:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I didn't like him

because I was having so much fun making fun of the Cubs for signing Jacque Jones until we signed the RH version.

But he did some pretty impressive things in his career and contributed to some great Cardinal teams.

by liam on May 21, 2008 6:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the irrationality stems from first-information bias

He had a poor start his first season with us (leading my friends to nickname him “Mr. LOB”), which when combined with his perceived lack of hustle made him one of the lesser-liked cardinals.

Once he earned that nickname he never seemed to lose it. First impression can be hard to change.

"Give a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a night. Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life."

by BigMOman on May 21, 2008 6:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Disagree re the boos

STL fans (as far as I can tell) love him for his late-game heroics. He may hear the boos from the rafters of VEB, though.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 21, 2008 6:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd rather they see...

what Cleveland would accept in a trade, and then move him to AAA. We’ve got some depth in RH relief pitching…and though he’s been decent isn’t Borowski still their closer?

by cardzfanbub on May 21, 2008 4:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Relief depth?

Huh? Yes, the youngsters should be throwing more, but I don’t know that I’d describe our ‘pen in any way as deep or as having depth.

by bgh on May 21, 2008 4:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Our minor league teams

are the deepest in this very area RH relief pitching. One of the many problems with our current bullpen is our lack of utilizing the resouces that we have.

by FunkeeC on May 21, 2008 5:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not interested

I am pretty sure that CLE has stated that they are not interested in making such a swap. I think they see the same playing time issues and expect that Barton may be returned before long anyway. Furthermore, CLE has pretty serious issues with their corner outfield production. I think that makes them even less likely to want to work out a swap.

by indakind on May 21, 2008 4:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can think of a couple of veterans

on this team who aren’t major league caliber either, yet strangely they get way more PT than Barton. Let’s not give up on the kid just yet. Too much time on the bench is what’s behind his slump, I think.

by MdRedbirdFreak on May 21, 2008 5:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

who

Would that be?

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on May 21, 2008 5:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well...

Kennedy’s slump has been going on for just under 400 AB’s right now, and well over a full calander year, with the exception of 2 weeks of success at the beginning of the season.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 21, 2008 6:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Now there's a harsh piece of reality!

Two lessons fer the young ‘uns :
1.) being a middle infielder can keep you in the game
2.) avoid the uppercut swing

by random on May 21, 2008 6:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kennedy

Correct on Kennedy. I’m concerned about him too. In fact about the middle infield situation in general, at least offensively. I suspect Kennedy is about done. That swing alwasy has been a little ugly, but it used to produce decent gap power. Not anymore.

I assumed the original comment was targeted towards either Schumaker or Duncan, since they are the people that Barton is competing with. And my comment had some unneccesary snark – I can see that now. Still I think calling Duncan or Schumaker as something less than MLB caliber is selling either short. Schumaker apparently does have Aaron Miles disease, shown by his propensity for gathering a starters share of AB’s with a reserve skillset. He may be getting more AB’s than his skillset should allow, but from my perspective he is showing himself to be MLB caliber.

As a matter of fact, I think most of the fan frustration with the outfield comes from a surplus of MLB caliber OF’s, not a lack. Coupled with a increasing desire to see what Mather can do. I don’t understand why we hadn’t DL’d Ankiel by this point.

by Merry CRasmus on May 21, 2008 6:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If he's not on roster in 09

Then they need to let him go now. They must really like what they see in him to keep him around. Luna (another Rule 5 guy) took a while to contribute, I expect June/July for Barton to really shine.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 21, 2008 5:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Didn't luna spend his rule 5 year in St.L

and then go down to Memphis for a few months the next year? I think I remember that.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 21, 2008 5:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Regarding Ludwick...

As one of the posters that questioned Ludwick’s absence from your grades last week, I would like to add that I didn’t question so much that Skip was your surprise player in the bunch…but rather that Ludwick wasn’t mentioned at all and was by far outperforming most reasonable expectations.

by cardzfanbub on May 21, 2008 4:52 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Reasonable expectations?

He’s playing so far above “reasonable expectations” that the only direction he can go is down. And when that happens, look for the comments that he’s taking AB’s away from other outfielders. Abe did say it best, didn’t he….. “you can please part of the people all of the time”...... and so on.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 21, 2008 5:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There is fear in all of this tidying up

I think everyone is aware that this team is at a critical point…........... If they go down tonight, the long slide probably begins. The dodgers can be tough on a struggling team. It was so fun seeing the homers and a whopping 6 runs on Monday. .... Will ownership settle for profit like in some years past. Will they foist aging gladiators on us because of there long fat contracts. False hopes in the PT Barnum tradition. This team has a lot of Mediocre talents,(investments). The family atmosphere is nice I think…....to a point. This teams has many needs…...... the Rule 5 obligations make it impossible to carry a player with Barton’s abilities through the entire season. .... Issy must retire…..Find a second baseman that is a complete player and a pinch hit threat…....Get a backup catcher with a bat, and an arm…............. I’m liking the new pitching….who else is down there?

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on May 21, 2008 5:19 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

westcoast bird . . .

“If they go down tonight, the long slide probably begins.”

really? it all comes down to one game in the middle of may?

by lboros on May 21, 2008 8:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heh

yeah, that seemed a little too prophetic. but there’s no excuse to lose this game

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 21, 2008 8:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"impossible to carry a player with Barton’s abilities through the entire season"

The kid has speed, talent and can hit the ball with power. I think he’s worth holding on to for the year. Tony just has a slew of talented hot/cold hitters that he trying to mix and match. I can hardly wait till it comes together and they all start hitting the snot out the ball and scoring 6+ runs a game.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on May 21, 2008 5:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And we did keep

Hector Luna for an entire year.

by saladdays on May 21, 2008 5:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Being a middle infielder

worked in his favor, I’d think. I hope Barton starts hitting again, but for several weeks he’s been practically waving at fastballs as they go by. I’d hate to see him go back to Cleveland. What IS working in his favor is that 2008 is, like it or not, a rebuilding year & his roster spot isn’t going to put us into or keep us out of the playoffs. Not that I’ve given up hope :-)

BTW, what’s your handle about? A Cheer-Accident thing, maybe?

by random on May 21, 2008 5:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cheer Accident is one of my favorite bands

I just saw them not so long ago and met thym (sic?)

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 21, 2008 8:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hear Thymme is a major trip

Wonder if he still does the “hot dog!” schtick outside Wrigley Field. HIs bands have been favorites of mine for a long time, which explains the “Gumballhead” icon. C-A did an EP for a comic, which kind of strangely is now published out of Maplewood.

Hope Thymme ain’t a Cubs fan. I figure don’t ask, don’t tell.

by random on May 21, 2008 9:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no idea

he might be, or he might not like baseball. it was funny though, that guy was dating a girl a few years younger than me a couple years back (and he’s what, almost 50? heh)

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 21, 2008 9:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that band is probably the best band in chicago

they are amazing. can’t wait to hear the next thing they bust out. I’d like to hear some of the heavier noisy stuff mixed with their “pop” albums.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 21, 2008 9:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

noise = better

You got a band going now?

And more on topic: I got a feeling Brendan is going to have a good night. Glad TLR is putting in the second line this game.

by random on May 21, 2008 9:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

I’m going in too many different directions. I have alot of music projects, want to start a good live sounding one, but can’t find a reliable drummer. I have a lot of amplification and want to so something in between slower melvins stuff, grindcore, and sampling and effects based kinda avant garde thrown in. mad props to B. Ryan

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 21, 2008 9:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hot and cold

Is this another way of saying…....our boys kill them no.5 starters and rookies…....but they cool off a bit when they see a major leaguer. Mix and match is another name for ” three shells and a pea”.
There will be teams selling…....let go shopping…..... before all the starters get the ” 2 runs is enough-ities ”......... Beckett give up 4 jacks and gets the win…...11 / 8 Think Joel could have lasted with a little cushion….....how about Lohse not getting a runs till after the 6th, a few times lately.

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on May 21, 2008 5:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Last night was one game in the NL's most run-supressing park

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 21, 2008 5:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and at least they had the excuse

to lose against maddux. but it would have been nice to see them get some runs once he was out of the game. our pitching is not quite good enough to win with 2 runs

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 21, 2008 8:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, they did just take 2 out of 3 from the team that then had the AL's best record

Let’s not declare them dead based on one game.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 21, 2008 5:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

our good friend julian tavarez

was designated for assignment by the red sox, and accepted.

by longhornscardinals on May 21, 2008 5:24 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I posted about that yesterday. He agreed to accept assignment so the Sox could work out a trade for him.

That’s a very decent thing of him to do, IMO. He would easily be able to join any number of teams if he wanted to work a deal himself.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 21, 2008 5:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ah sorry,

didnt have a chance to read the entire thread yesterday. thanks for the info

by longhornscardinals on May 21, 2008 5:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It seems like I was trying to scold you......I wasn't. I'm just impressed that he did that.

He didn’t have to. It gives the team that doesn’t really want or need him leverage that a lot of players would feel like they didn’t deserve. It also preserves his current salary. And I wouldn’t be surprised if he ends up back with the Sox someday.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 21, 2008 7:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh man

Erin Andrews is in Atlanta tonight. I’ll be back in about 5 hours ;)

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 21, 2008 6:53 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ohhhhhh

erin andrews!!!!!!!!!!

you only got about 3 hours till gametime.

by stlcardinalsfang on May 21, 2008 6:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lecher

[/googles Atlanta directions & grabs keys]

by azruavatar on May 21, 2008 7:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll meet you there

I’ll be the guy standing right behind her with the camera on full zoom and video mode

[/sketchy]

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans

by Mr Redbird on May 21, 2008 7:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Creep ALERT!

Mr. Redbird is daydreaming about his long, hot night with Erin Andrews, erotically whispering in her ear the Viva el Birdos Community Guidelines, word-by-word and impressing her with his excel spreadsheets filled with useless stats from years past, until she escapes the shackles and flees captivity.

by birdman3000 on May 21, 2008 9:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dunc...

... i think you’re overstating your criticisms. the thing about Duncan is that he has taken a lot of mediocre pitchers and gotten good results out of them. some mediocre pitchers have still been mediocre with him as their coach, but he hasn’t turned pitchers who were good before they got to him into bad pitchers (hold it on the Reyes retorts for once). nor have many of Dunc’s failed projects ended up much better elsewhere.

yeah, maybe he only got on good year (really it was two: Betty had a 102 ERA+ in 2005) from Marquis, but Marquis was no better before he was in the Stl org, and has been no better since he left.

Tomko could be the exception, but Duncan only had him for one year, and 2003 was an awful year for everybody in the organization. Kile died, Buck died, Izzy was hurt, the bullpen was atrocious, etc. Hermanson was average before he joined the Cards in 01, was average with the Cards, and was average after he left the Cards until he went nutso in 2005. i’m more willing to believe that 2005 is the aberration for him, and not the rest of his career. similarly, Wells was pretty bad before he came to the Cards, and pretty bad with the Cards (although he actually did improve from 2006 to 2007, but about 10 ERA+ points, believe it or not). it remains to be seen whether he improves later in his career. Woody was worse before he came and after he left. Morris was worse after he left. Carpenter was worse before he came. Duncan did wonders for Eckersley (twice) and Stewart. he resurrected Kile’s career. Rijo only played for Dunc in his age 20 and 21 seasons, so it’s no wonder that he matured after he left. and i shouldn’t even have to mention what he did for Suppan. and then there are more minor successes like Weaver in ‘06, Piniero so far, Wellemeyer, Franklin, and Looper. and guys like Al Reyes and Ron Villone. he’s brought a lot of young pitchers up and had a lot of success with them as well. and look at the career that Izzy has had since Duncan got ahold of him.

my point is, Dunc has had a lot of success with a wide range of players, from stud prospects to castaways. but there are very, very few examples of players pitcher better once they leave the organization then they did when Duncan was coaching them. a few, perhaps, but not many. not nearly as many as those who have pitched better under him than under any other coach.

i also disagree with your statement that he has only one pitching philosophy. i don’t think that anyone can argue that Morris, Carpenter, Kile, Stewart, Eck, Izzy, and Wainwright are/were pitch-to-contact guys who avoided going after Ks. or that Duncan is forcing Wellemeyer to lay off the hard stuff in order to get ground balls. the team signed Lohse this off-season knowing that he was a flyball pitcher.

it’s just that Duncan knows that pitchers were less than superior raw stuff will have a hard time winning by trying to K everyone. so guys like Suppan and Looper, who probably can’t K anybody anyway, will do better by controlling their pitches and forcing hitters to make bad contact. it a strategy of control: limiting walks and XBHs. and for guys with below-average talent, it is a very sound philosophy. after all, this strategy has gotten many serviceable seasons from pitchers were probably wouldn’t’ve even been in the league without Duncan. his record in this regard truly is impressive.

in short, i really don’t think you’re giving the man his due.

by kindred on May 21, 2008 8:58 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

forgive all the typos...

... i hope you can understand that jumble of letters.

by kindred on May 21, 2008 9:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mike Pelfrey...

I think the Mets have broken him, just like we broke Anthony Reyes. Seems like that could be a pretty fair swap. Both players need a new organization.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on May 21, 2008 9:00 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah...

... they broke him, and Duncan broke Reyes, and the Yanks broke Kennedy and Hughes, and the Reds broke Bailey and Cueto (after his first start), and the Indians broke Cliff Lee last year, and Fausto Carmona the year before that (by putting him in the pen and letting Big Papi smack him around), and the Twins broke Liriano, etc.

or maybe these are young kids who will have some successes and some failures as they mature. or maybe their skill sets allow them to do well in the minors but not so well in the majors (like hundreds before them).

[/sarcasm]

that said, i’d take an even-up Pelfry-for-Reyes swap in a New York minute. no chance in hell that Minaya would, tho. Pelfry has an ERA+ this year of 97, at age 24. Reyes last year had an ERA+ of 73 at age 25. plus Pelfrey has more options, and Reyes has more service time (meaning, he’s cost-controlled for less time). no way they make that deal. we’d have to include some bullpen help, for starters.

by kindred on May 21, 2008 9:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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