Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: NHL Free Agency Coverage: NHL Rumors, NHL Signings & Trades


First Quarter Report Card

Howdy, you all.

I had such a good response to my report card for John Mozeliak's first offseason, including the man himself bringing it up in a chat, I thought I would do it again.  This time, I'm going to do the team as a whole for the first quarter of the season, and I don't have a clever, contrived lead in.  Sorry. 

Anyway, let's dive right in, shall we?  The less said about last night's debacle, the better. So, without further ado,

Star-divide

We'll break it down by groups of positions. That should be fairly easy to get a hold on.

Starting Pitching

Overall grade: B+

I only give this a B+ because I hesitate to give out A's, particularly this early in the season. However, so far, the starters have done as good a job as anyone could have possibly expected. Hell, they've far outperformed what I expected, with the exception of Wainwright.

The biggest surprise of the rotation, for me, has got to be Todd Wellemeyer. He's shown us far more than I think we had any right to expect. He's been just as tough to hit as he's been for most of his career, but he's finally begun to get a handle on his walks and pitch counts. In his first season beginning in the rotation, Wellemeyer has looked far more comfortable, and far more confident, than I believe we ever saw him as a reliever, either here or in Chicago.

The disappointments? Well, there haven't really been any to this point, except for the fact that the cavalry does not appear to be coming, at least not anytime soon. Clement is looking more and more like he's just toast, and Muldoo has been up and down in his attempts to return to the big leagues, to say the least. Still, it's hard to complain when two of the pitchers you expected to be in the front half of the rotation haven't thrown a pitch for the Cards this season, and nobody really seems to care.

Bullpen

Overall grade:D+

This has been a definite sore spot for the team, especially lately. The relief corps appeared to be pretty solid early, but have revealed themselves to be the weakest link in this team as the season has continued.

I'm not sure the bullpen has been bad enough to merit a D grade on it's own, but this was supposed to be the strongest part of the team! Remember back during the offseason, and even into Spring Training, when we all thought the team would probably suck, but the bullpen would be really good? Well, so far, it's been very nearly the exact opposite of that, with the bullpen actually dragging down the team's record. If not for some very painful bullpen episodes, the Cardinals could very well be looking at anywhere from 3-7 more wins this season, and a substantial cushion over the Chicago bunch.

The biggest positive has got to be Kyle McClellan. He came into camp with almost zero chance of making the team, and is now, just about two months later, being touted by many fans as the best candidate to replace Izzy. K-Mac certainly has the stuff, and he's shown some real mental toughness already this young season. He'll have his ups and downs, to be sure; after all, he is a 23 year old rookie, but the future looks very bright for McClellan, wherever he ends up pitching.

The disappointment? That's not really a tough question; it's obviously the performance of Izzy so far. But a dishonourable mention also has to go to the left side of the bullpen. Flores has been pretty much crap, there's a very real chance we won't see Tyler Johnson this year, and Ron Villone... Well, Villone's been pretty solid overall, but he's come up small for the Cards the last couple of times out, and those have been games the team could ill afford to let slip away. The lefties have not been good.

Outfield

Overall grade: B

A very solid group this year. I don't think any of us thought we would see this level of production from our flycatchers this year; it's been the most pleasant surprise of the season for me. You know things are going pretty well when you clamour for a given player to get more playing time, but then can't come up with a good way to get that playing time for him without taking out another player who deserves it just as much.

Best so far? Skip Schumaker. I know, we all love the Ricker, and that's fantastic. But we all knew how talented Ankiel was coming in. There was some doubt, of course, as to whether he would manage to maintain any kind of consistency, or if he would just be horribly exposed, but we all knew the potential was there. The improvement that Skip has shown has really, to me at least, come almost out of nowhere. The plate discipline, the increased ability to drive the ball, and the continued excellent defense have moved Schumaker from the level of fifth outfielder/ defensive specialist into the realm of pretty solid leadoff man. He may not be the leadoff hitter on a championship club, but he's a serviceable, dependable leadoff hitter.

The disappointment, again here, is pretty obvious. Chris Duncan has been far less than we though he would be this year. He's still getting on base at a nice clip, due to his solid plate discipline, but his ability to actually make things happen by swinging the bat has virtually disappeared. His power stroke still hasn't come back, even when he seems to be completely healthy, and he's obviously a minus in the field. Duncan is the least complete player the Cardinals have in the outfield, and the one dimension he formally could be counted on to provide just hasn't been in extant. He has shown at least minor signs of life lately, so that's encouraging, but to this point, Duncan has been very disappointing.

Corner Infield

Overall grade: B

This one is really a tale of two players. Albert, obviously, is still the biggest asset the Cardinals have. He's probably the best player in the National League, even if he does occasionally drive us all crazy with his baserunning antics. He's reached base in every game he's played this year; it's tough to perform much better than that.

Troy Glaus, on the other hand, has been mildly disappointing, at least in one regard. The power definitely hasn't been there yet, and it's been pretty glaring, considering that power is the most striking part of Santa's game, at least in an ordinary year. He has, however, been a pleasant surprise with the glove, showing much better defensive prowess than what I had expected coming into the season. Glaus drags the grade down a bit here, but not a ton. His bat has underperformed, his glove has overperformed. I expect the power to be there, but I will admit to being a little impatient to see it show up.

Middle Infield

Overall grade: D+

Now this is a group that's a little less enjoyable to rate. The Cardinals, on balance, have one of the weakest middle infields in all of baseball. There's an almost complete lack of pop in these bats; in fact, the bats themselves are so weak they're almost not there.

Adam Kennedy has shown at least a pulse this year, hitting for a decent average and playing solid average defense, but he still mostly hit ground balls to the right side. They're slightly firmer ground balls this year than last, but grounders to the right, all the same.

Cesar Izturis actually helps the grade here slightly, as his defense has been as good as advertised, and his plate discipline has been better than what we've seen in the past. He's still an awful hitter, but he's done his part getting on base and has been a definite upgrade in the field over what the Cardinals have had the last couple of years. Overall, he definitely hasn't been great, but we shouldn't have expected more than what we're currently getting from him. Not a terrible signing, although I do think that Brendan Ryan could do mostly the same job much more cheaply.

Speaking of Mr. Ryan, he's probably been the brightest spot in the MI to me. He brings tremendous energy, he's hit well, he probably has more pop than any of the other guys here, and his defense is a plus. He does still have an occasional mental lapse, but he seems to have calmed down a bit since he's been here. Overall, I like the kid, and I would like to see him play more. Unfortunately, I kind of doubt that's going to happen.

Aaron Miles rounds out this rather unimpressive group. Miles has done exactly what he always does. He hits for a nice average, with no power and no walks. He has limited offensive value, and is on the team mostly for his versatility. The problem with that, of course, is that he's not really that versatile. He plays second base well enough, but doesn't really have the physical tools to play short or third base. As long as Miles is here, I'll probably say the same thing about him. He's fine as the 25th man, but he's really miscast getting 400 at bats. Sunrise, sunset.

Catcher

Overall grade: C

The catcher position hasn't really added much, nor detracted, from the team this year, in my opinion. Yadier has made some of his standard highlight reel throws, and has swung the bat pretty well, but he is what he is. I think there are better uses of resources than to carry a catcher who really only offers a glove, but that's my personal crusade, and I don't expect many to agree with me. Yadi has saved a few runs with his arm, and he's probably cost a few with the stick. Still, the Cardinals could do much worse.

Jason LaRue, on the other hand, really only has his mullet and his facial hair going for him. Since he's not riding a Harley up to the plate, he doesn't bring a whole lot of value, entertainment or otherwise. He has a nice arm as a backup, and doesn't seem to actively irritate the pitchers the way Einar Diaz used to. Still, when you find yourself looking back on the offensive play of Gary Bennett with nostalgia, something isn't right.

The catching corps is what it is. Neither of these guys kill the team, and Yadi's probably a small plus. But the Cardinals don't have an impact talent here, and that's why their grade sits squarely in the middle.

Managing

Overall grade: B

Sigh. Here's my chance to really stick it to Tony, and I can't bring myself to do it. Sure, there are plenty of things he does that still want to make me run my head through a wall, but I just can complain about the job he's done this year. Tony has this team believing that they should be good, and that's a pretty impressive achievment in and of itself. This is a team that isn't loaded with talent, and yet they've played solid baseball so far. They've done most of the little things right, and that's why they find themselves five games over, when I didn't think they would get over .500 for more than a day or two at a time this whole season.

I'm also including the coaching here, which I think has really been exemplary. I'm not a fan of Dave Duncan, by any means, but this pitching staff, composed almost entirely of castoffs and question marks, has been surprisingly solid. I have to give the man props for that.

On the offensive side of things, while the hitters haven't been great, the overall approach they've taken to most at bats has been. This team may not have the talent of the 2004-2005 clubs, but they have the same patient, tenacious approach that was a large part of what made those teams so tough to play. Like I said, the hitters themselves may not be All Stars in many cases, but the coaching staff has made these guys into tough outs.

Overall Team Grade: B-

I would like to just give this team a B, as I think they've played very well to this point, and have probably overachieved. I have to take them down just a peg from that, though, because there have been some troubling patterns early as well. They leave far too many men on base, the bullpen has hurt the team in the standing, and the starting pitchers are showing signs of coming back down to earth. This team has performed quite well, but it's not all sweetness and light. I think a B- is just about right for this group.

Where this team goes from here is tough to really see. There are obviously some areas that can be improved, and what can be done to shore up those weaknesses will largely determine the direction our Birds head in. I have a feeling the roster may look a fair bit different even by the time I do a midseason card; this team is definitely still a fascinating study in the way a roster can evolve when a team is in transition. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing where the season takes us, even when it's frustrating. 

Okay, gang. That's my quarterly report. Feel free to discuss. (Otherwise, the site really doesn't have much of a point, now does it?)

0 recs | Comment 287 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

I don't get it.....

I’m not a fan of Dave Duncan, by any means

To me, you lose credibility when you make a statement like that. You don’t have to agree with everything he does, you don’t have to think that he is “versatile” in his handling of pitchers, but the guy is likely to go down as one of the best 5 pitching coaches in the history of the game, if not THE best.

Some of our fans that “hate” on TLR and Duncan are going to be unpleasantly surprised when we have a new staff take over.

by SoonerfanTU on May 14, 2008 9:26 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To follow up on this.....

I’d say the number of pitchers Duncan has helped improve/succeed probably outnumbers the cases such as “Reyes” by at least 5-1. Pretty solid.

by SoonerfanTU on May 14, 2008 9:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you posted this while mine was posted. So I guess you can nevermind my post as I agree on this point obviously

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on May 14, 2008 9:34 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

duncan has plusses and minuses, like any coach

i’m not a huge fan of the guy either - and i say that will full acknowledgment of the guy’s successes. he’s had his share, but he’s also had plenty of failures. i don’t like his style.

by lboros on May 14, 2008 10:01 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can handle that

Always going to be plus and minuses, and the minuses will add up with years growing in quantity. I’m just going into this year knowing if we have any chance at all, and if this starting core holds up, he’ll be one of the main ones to thank, at least from a coaching standpoint.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on May 14, 2008 10:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree on a point or two of that.

I don’t have any issues with the fan or not a fan comment because at the end of the day the post is going to be opinionated, it’s a report card (recalls Mrs. Page having a bad opinion of his handwriting :)).

But I do see Duncan generally getting a lot of flack over Reyes like issues when he’s had a ton of success stories. At the end of the day I’ll trade a few ‘reyes’ issues over some loopers, welly’s, wainos and the like.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on May 14, 2008 9:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

on duncan...

I think there’s more to it than just Duncan getting a lot of flack over Reyes alone.

It seems to me that while it’s very true he’s made a career out of great success stories, he’s also had some not so great stories very recently. Coming to mind just off the top are Jason Marquis, Kip Wells, and then yes, Anthony Reyes – in back to back years no less, and there are probably others. I’m very aware that not everyone will gel with the man, but it just seems to me that the recent pattern of at least 1 pitcher per year the last couple of years is troubling. It makes him look kind of stubborn and cantankerous.

As Larry said above, he’s got his plusses and minuses – heck, he’s human just like the rest of us. But if he’s truly taken the attitude of “my way or the highway” – well, that’s just not good leadership and not good coaching.

by A1R3Z on May 14, 2008 10:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

in general to everything you typed. I don’t necessarily agree with the Jason, Wells addition as I seen them more as “failed experiments” over “phenoms ruined by duncan”, and even if you look into the Reyes situation there seems to be more to the eye, outside influences and the like.

But one thing about it, if he is getting cancerous in his old age, you know that he’s getting closer and closer to being gone. If not at the end of this year, most likely the end of next when Tony’s tenure is coming to a close.

I’m ready for some new blood for pitching coach, but I’m glad that the new blood didn’t have to go through a baptism of fire with the core we have now. If that makes sense

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on May 14, 2008 10:27 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Didn't Marquis.....

Have a really good year under Duncan in STL, or did I dream that?

by SoonerfanTU on May 14, 2008 10:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He did

but he also had an incomprehensibly bad year as well.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 10:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seems to be the story of Marquis career.................

Lou Pinella absolutely hates the guys and the Cubs would trade him if his contract were not so awful.

by ICbirdfan on May 14, 2008 10:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he had a good year...

a mediocre year, and a bad year…i would say it evens out to a league average pitcher…cant really complain about that…although i will always complain about Marquis

"Back in the day when I played, a pitcher had 3 pitches: a fastball, a curveball, a slider, a changeup and a good sinker pitch." - Mike Shannon

by nomar34 on May 14, 2008 12:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Marquis still sucks. Wells still sucks and sucked before Dunc saw him...

Reyes just doesn’t fit.

However the COL is looking good and so is Piniero and Loop. Lohse was okay for awhile.

Dunc seems to do a great job with pitchers that listen and are willing to take direction. The stubborn ones like Reyes and Marquis, not so sure abou Wells, seem to get nowhere. Thus they created thier own failures.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 14, 2008 10:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+6

perfectly typed.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on May 14, 2008 10:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but Red Blazer, what you're basically saying

is that duncan is infallible. you’re saying that all pitchers who listen to duncan succeed, and all those who ignore him fail — is that really true? duncan is never wrong? that’s what dave probably thinks. he has a one-size-fits-all formula for success; it has worked for him more often than it has failed him, and he believes in it, so he sticks to it. but that doesn’t mean it’s an infallible formula. it doesn’t work for everybody.

on balance he’s a good pitching coach, but he only works well with certain types of pitchers. i wish he had a broader range.

by lboros on May 14, 2008 12:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it also assumes

that when a pitcher succeeds, it’s b/c of Duncan and when he fails, it’s all the pitcher’s fault. That’s a tremendous fallacy.

by chuckb on May 14, 2008 12:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Completely agree with HC and lboros

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 12:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that is true...

but when a pitcher fails most people blame duncan and that is not always the case, as well.

"Back in the day when I played, a pitcher had 3 pitches: a fastball, a curveball, a slider, a changeup and a good sinker pitch." - Mike Shannon

by nomar34 on May 14, 2008 12:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

???

No, when pitchers fail, THEY get booed. The vast majority of fans would blame the player for shortcomings and not a coach, even one as well regarded as Duncan.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 12:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nobody blamed duncan for kip wells' failure

or jorge sosa, or jason marquis, or dustin hermanson or brett tomko or mike maroth.

to me, the frustration lies in the types of pitchers the cardinals won’t even consider. they never looked at ted lilly because he pitches up in the zone — not dave’s type of pitcher, so the cards wouldn’t even consider him. but they were hot in pursuit of miguel batista . . . . . that’s what is frustrating about dave duncan.

by lboros on May 14, 2008 12:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

agree completely

That’s the biggest complaint I have about Duncan and the Cards, is that they won’t even bother going after pitchers who could possibly help them because they don’t fit the particular Duncan mold. It speaks volumes – it says to the baseball community (free agency, other teams) that if you’re a pitcher who doesn’t fit our style (groundball, pitch to contact), then don’t come knocking. It says that we’re only interested in hiring those pitchers who will make our pitching coach look like a mastermind. I could go on…

Yes it’s true that if Dave Duncan is your pitching coach, than you need to supply him with the tools he needs to help the team succeed. And in this case he goes with what’s worked for him in the past. However, by passing up pitchers who are potentially more talented just because they don’t fit his mold, that’s doing the team and the fans a disservice. That’s just not good leadership. A good coach and leader can take what he or she knows and help apply it to ANYONE. Find a way to gel the ideas to the player. You take that more talented pitcher who doesn’t exactly fit your mold, and find a way to take the tools he has, take the experience and knowledge you have, and then find a way to get the best results using a combination of the two. That’s what a coach’s job is – to get the best out of your players, period, no matter who they are or what they bring to the table. And that’s not what Dave Duncan does, to a fault.

Is he a good coach? Overall, yes, he’s very good at what he does. But if what he does is limiting the team’s choices… well, which would you rather – pick a nice, fresh, ripe apple out of the barrel? Or weed through a whole container of rotten ones to find the one with the least bruises and worms? The best of the downtrodden is not necessarily the best of everyone available.

by A1R3Z on May 14, 2008 1:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

colonel wellemeyer was acquired to pitch in relief

he was a waiver-wire claim who was picked up with no risk, who became an emergency starter because everybody else failed.

don’t get me wrong, i’m not knocking wellemeyer; he’s great. but it’s not as if duncan identified him and said, “there’s our next starting pitcher.” wellemeyer was a hard thrower who the cards thought could shore up the bullpen.

kudos to duncan for salvaging welley’s career —- he deserves all the credit in the world for that. nobody else in baseball thought this guy was worth anything. but it doesn’t speak to the issue we are addressing above. wellemeyer was brought here to pitch in relief, not to start.

by lboros on May 14, 2008 1:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They did scout and try to sign Burnett

who doesn’t fit the stererotypical Duncan mold. I do understand your point, but sometimes, I wonder if this argument is a bit overstated.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 14, 2008 1:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll give you that one...

To quote LB – “one size fits most” is probably a more accurate description of Duncan’s tutelage.

And while I agree – they did try to go after Burnett – I’ve always wondered about how much. Case in point – He signed for 5 years 55 million. If I remember correctly, Jocketty was given the go ahead to go 5 guaranteed years to match, and instead went with some sort of team option 5th year – which brought the money total to above the Jays total (60 or so?), but only 4 years (40-some odd million) guaranteed. If you want him that badly, and have the OK from the owner to spend, why not just do it? Maybe it was just as simple as a business decision – I don’t know… I’m sure I don’t know all the specifics. I’ve just always wondered.

by A1R3Z on May 14, 2008 2:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and now that I'm finished with my tangent

because the details of the Burnett offer wasn’t really the argument…

I do concede that you are correct. They did go after Burnett, and he doesn’t fit the Duncan mold. “One size fits most” is probably the best way to describe it.

by A1R3Z on May 14, 2008 2:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I should also note

that Carp really wasn’t much of a GB pitcher in Toronto, and the team placed a lot of confidence in him before he even threw a pitch for the Cardinals

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 14, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And even less durable.....

Regarding Burnett, that still was a bad contract in retrospect. He’s only thrown 300 innings the previous two years at a 117 ERA+ and that’s with Toronto’s defense being among the best in Ieague and he’s struggling so far this year. Not to mention if he actually does turn it around this year he’s out of there before they’ve done anything with him anyway in all likelihood.

With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch

by joker24 on May 14, 2008 6:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lilly

This one galls me a little bit. The fact that the guy got in a fight with his manager might have had something to do with it, don’t you think? I mean we’re talking about a guy who, on national TV no less, took his glove off on the mound and spiked it after giving up a home run (which hadn’t happened yet as of the 07 offseason, but still). It’s not a little bit possible that they didn’t take him on because he’s a raging psycho who wanted a boat load of money? They were looking at Batista b/c they needed a durable back-end guy for cheap, which is what he is. I don’t think Lilly is so much better than Batista that it justifies his baggage and his contract.

Johan Santana pitches up in the zone too. I doubt Duncan would pass on him if he became available to the Cardinals by some divine miracle.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on May 14, 2008 1:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I believe Gibbons is the Toronto manager

and he also got in Shea Hillebrand’s face that year as well. Seems that maybe he is the problem. Lilly is surely not a saint, but really who gives a rip? He is an effective pitcher, one that was off limits to us because of the philosophy of the pitching coach.

Busch III’s ability to supress HRs almost certainly would have played into Lilly’s strengths as well. It galls me that we weren’t in on the convo, this guy is a legit pitcher, not just some back-end, inning eater guy.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 1:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A lilly

is a delicate flower.

by liam on May 14, 2008 1:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fantastic!!

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 1:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would agree

...that Gibbons surely had something to do with it. He’s clearly a bit of a raging psycho as well. But the old saying is that it takes two to tango. Lilly obviously had something to do with that as well. Further evidence that Lilly is clearly off in the head came last year in the NLCS when he gave up a bomb and took his glove off and spiked it on national TV. Not even Zambrano has any thing done that. That was arguably one of the most cry-baby, unprofessional things I’ve ever seen on the mound by any pitcher ever. It was right up there with Clemens’s little bat chunk thing in the 2000 WS.

Look at Lilly’s numbers before he signed with the Cubbies, and you’ll see he sat at about 7.5 K/9 and 3.5 BB/9. He had posted an ERA as high as 5+ as recently as two years previous. And this was a guy asking for 10 million per? The Cards weren’t giving Suppan that, a guy who had recently helped pitched the team to a WS ring. Add it all together and I’m ok with the FO not taking a large risk on a solid, not spectacular pitcher with questionable makeup.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on May 14, 2008 2:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but sidney ponson, who punched a judge,

was somebody they were happy to work with.

by lboros on May 14, 2008 1:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and Ryan Franklin, after the steroid allegations

not to mention that Tony wanted to go sign everyone’s favorite happy songbird cheerleader, Barry Bonds.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 14, 2008 1:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Completely different

Neither Ponson nor Franklin were going to command multi-year contracts at roughly 10 million annually. If Ponson had hauled off and punched LaRussa they could have just dumped him and lost a negligible amount, whereas Lilly would still be owed a significant chunk of change.

Bonds is, at worst, the 4th best player that ever lived. If LaRussa hadn’t been at least curious about him I’d doubt his sanity. Once again, a little bit different.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on May 14, 2008 2:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but they were prepared to give miguel batista

$8m a year for 3 years — not quite as big a commitment as lilly, but still a major commitment. batista’s numbers were inferior to lilly’s, but he keeps the ball down and lilly doesn’t.

by lboros on May 14, 2008 2:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I honestly can't say I thought Lilly was a good option

Looking at it now he looks like he may have been at a fair price, but he still has to finish this year and pitch next year.

I am not saying you only like Lilly after a good last year by any means lboros, because I am sure you looked at his stats and took into account pitching in the AL East.

by ICbirdfan on May 14, 2008 2:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wonder how much Lilly's baggage had to do with a no go.

Obviously if you have a player as good as Bonds you just deal with baggage but Ted Lilly is not that good of a player that makes teams say we can live with his side antics….....

This is privy info and you know all teams do back ground checks and what not prior to signing guys

by ICbirdfan on May 14, 2008 2:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not only is that a maddening trait

but it makes it easier for the opposition if they face the same type of pitcher every night. When you see 89mph with a sinker every night it is easier to make adjustments.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 14, 2008 2:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We have some variance

Some guys can run the sinker up to 91 while others only hit 87 with their sinkers.

Some throw more sliders while some throw more curves.

But we don’t needs no stinking changeups or 4 seamers. Its sad when you think neither Tom Glavine or John Tudor would have been able to work with the current pitching coach.

by DriverZn on May 14, 2008 3:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Or Johan Santana....

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on May 14, 2008 5:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oh come on now

let’s not be ridiculous.

Anthony Reyes != Johan Santana.

by Jhusk on May 14, 2008 7:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

unless it's reyes

Then everytime he does good It’s A big fuck you to Duncan. But anything he get’s hit hard it’s because Duncan messed him up.

by Evilfrog on May 14, 2008 12:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Again, not true

tons of people on this site trash Reyes for his crappy performances.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 12:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tons of people on this site

trash Reyes for his crappy performances.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 12:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

second verse,

same as the first. lol

C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!

by yer dog first on May 14, 2008 12:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

50/50 not really worth rehasing either......

This site is 50% DD fault and 50% Reyes fault…...

by ICbirdfan on May 14, 2008 12:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rick Ankiel

is a delicate flower.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 1:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pitching philosophy

For whatever reason, when the discussion revolves around the philosophy of the team’s coaching staff people have very strong opinions.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 1:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thats because

people in stl are for some reason really hard on coaches anymore. its weird, because we are generally considered soft about sports

If you are in St. Louis check out my band, Griffin and the Gargoyles
(formerly Gargoyle Reign, Gargoyle Lounge)

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles

:-D

by jealousblues on May 14, 2008 2:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think its an easy way to express frustration about the team

without having to cheer against/be mad at the players

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 14, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Does Duncan really have a one size fits all strategy?

He doesn’t seem to be pushing the groundball thing with Wellemeyer and Lohse. He was happy to let Stottlemeyer throw hard and get his strikeouts. Same with Alan Benes (not that that’s necessarily a success story, but still…) and Ankiel the pitcher. Duncan LOVED Woody, and he was a flyball pitcher.

Now it’s true that he pushes an ingame strategy that deemphasizes going for strikeouts aggressively, and I think he’s probably pushed an approach on Reyes that probably wasn’t appropriate for him, but I think it’s probably unfair to call his approach ‘one size fits all’

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 14, 2008 12:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you're right, "one-size-fits-all" is probably too strong

but “one-size-fits-most” probably isn’t. dave duncan pitching staffs have the same characteristics year in and year out. almost without exception, they are in the bottom 1/4 of the league strikeouts and the top 1/4 in groundballs — no matter who the personnel are. that’s partly because he selects the personnel who are predisposed to execute his game plan, and partly because he imposes the same game plan on (almost) every pitcher.

it’s interesting how a very innocent comment by red baron (“i’m not a big fan of dave duncan”) has inspired such a large discussion, eh?

by lboros on May 14, 2008 1:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's fair enough

and part of me wonders if it’s just a way that the team has tried to assemble a competitive roster from junk while saving up for Rolen/Pujols type megadeals—sign cheap-o groundball junkballers, have them backed up by no-hit, good glove infielders, hope that the infielders can make the groundballers salveagable, and use the rest of the cash you’ve saved to sign high priced megastars who you hope can carry the team. It’ll be interesting to see if Mozilak will continue the strategy.

And yes, the intensity of this discussion is very interesting, especially considering that not only was the comment pretty innocent, but it wasn’t soemthing that he even went out of his way to highlight in the paragraph.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 14, 2008 1:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think it is great to have a pitching coach who gets his guys prepared

of course, there is always a “but”. I have heard a number of pitchers say that Dunc gets them better prepared from a strategy perspective than any other previous coach. However, there is more to being a pitching coach than strategy. There is conditioning, there is mechanics, and there is what I would call, for lack of a better term, pitcher development.

To me, pitcher development means helping a guy to either refine his existing repertoire or add new pitches to it. I am not saying Dunc does not do this, I just never hear it being discussed. Not to get everyone excited, but a prime example of this is Anthony Reyes. I think he is the perfect candidate for learning a new pitch, particularly a splitter. Look what it did for Schilling’s career. It is the perfect complement for a guy who has a good, high fastball. To cite an example closer to home, Andy Benes prolonged his career by learning a splitter. That pitch was not taught to him by Dave Duncan, but by Chuck Finley.

I don’t see how a guy who has never pitched could excel at understanding how to condition a pitcher or how to properly develop a pitcher’s stuff. Maybe it could be done, but it seems counterintuitive to me. I can’t think of a single example of a hitting coach who never hit.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 14, 2008 5:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Duncan

Does not matter at all that he did not pitch at this stage of his career. I would say if it were his first or second year coaching it would be an point of concern for me or anyone he was teaching.

He has been around a lot of very good and great pitchers in his time and has picked their brain enough to pick up things. I would also bet he did some pitching at the HS level and it’s not like he has never been on a mound or anything. I think considering Dunc was not a great player he picked a lot of people’s brain’s and knows quite a bit about pitching, devloping a pitcher, and knowing how pitchers think despite never toeing the rubber at the MLB level.

by ICbirdfan on May 14, 2008 5:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"Does not matter at all that he did not pitch..."

is a pretty bold statement. I wonder what all the other pitching coaches who actually pitched would say about that? I am not saying it is some sort of fatal flaw or anything, but to completely dismiss the experiences of men who actually made their living pitching seems a little extreme.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 14, 2008 7:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's what the 2 seamer was supposed to be

Duncan was sure he wasn’t going to have long term success in the majors with his then current repitoire, and the two seamer was supposed to be the way to fix that. But then it didn’t work. But yeah, I thought that a splitter would be good.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 14, 2008 6:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i understand

from reading Neyer, mayo, etc, that the splitter is only a good pitch if you have certain physiological features, like really large hands and an over-the-top delivery. From reading Neyer’s description of a good splitter-ball-pitcher, Reyes did not seem like the type.

but I threw my arm out in grade school and dunno nothing ‘bout pitching, other than what I’ve read in “the big book”... etc, so i only mention this because I myself wondered for a while why Reyes didn’t try a splitter. he may have been incapable of throwing the pitch (none of us can know for sure, though it’s a question I’d ask elder Dunc if I ever came across him drunk at a bar).

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 15, 2008 3:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can see your point LB.

No one is infalliable.

I’m sure he makes mistakes.

But sometimes the most succesful people are succesful because they stick to what works and are disciplined enough to stay with that method through good times and bad times knowing that the good will far out weigh the bad.

So,I would put Dunc up near the top as far as succesful pithcing coaches go. Honestsly though there are only a few pitching coaches I can name so maybe I am not educated enough on this subject matter to give an objective view.

Most likely though if Dunc doesn’t start to evolve and use the methods that are being provided to him via the new pitching philosophy at the lower levels he will fall behind and probably be let go ala Jocketty. But that’s just my opinion.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 14, 2008 2:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The problem with saying Wells sucked

is that Duncan wanted him specifically. Wells was flat out a Duncan guy, which makes his atrocious stint here a stain on Duncan’s recent record. There is no way around it.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 10:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just because Dunc saw he had talent and wanted him to succeed

doesn’t mean that Wells should have succeeded. If wanting something got results then I would be loaded and have a houseful of scantily clad women with a garage full of sports cars and season tickets with my own private jet to fly around the country and follow every cards game.

Wells didn’t execute. When he did he succeeded.

Wells fault not Duncs.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 14, 2008 10:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seems to me

that Duncan is incapable of failing then….if a pitcher succeeds it is Duncan that made him and if he fails then the pitchers failed to execute the perfect strategy of the master.

It just doesn’t add up. Duncan wanted Wells because he thought he could make him effective. Wells never became effective. This means that Duncan was incorrect. You say that Wells failed because he didn’t execute, but this is true of ALL pitchers. Duncan’s job is to put pitchers in a position to execute their pitches and gameplan more effectively. Duncan did not do that with Wells.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 10:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wells has to execute. He couldn't. He either caught to much plate or missed the plate.

Now he is Colorados problem. They can’t fix him either.

I think Dunc does make mistakes but so does everyone else. I just think he makes less mistakes than most.

Kind of like Albert being a great hitter doesn’t mean that every pitch is a hit or a homerun but he does puts himself in position so that the odds are in his favor.

Maybe Dunc like the odds of Wells succeeding when leveraging them against a 1 year contract. Also maybe that is the best he was allowed to get with the money alotted to him.

Dunc reminds me of that single mother of four who only has $10 a night to feed her family. She makes a cheap dinner of mac and cheese but it’s a damn good mac and cheese that keeps you from starving.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 14, 2008 3:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's not the saem thing, though

he specifically scouted Wells, thinking that Wells would be able to suceed under him. Duncan doesn’t just ask for guys at random, thinking that he can ‘fix’ anyone.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 14, 2008 12:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can help you out with them

scantily clad women if you ever get ‘em Red Blazer

by ridgesee on May 14, 2008 4:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A Stain? It was a 1 yr contract, right?

The Cards did not give up prospects or sign Wells to a multi year contract. It was a gamble that didnt pay off – I have no problem with that.

by njnick on May 14, 2008 10:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"I'm also including the coaching here, which I think has really been exemplary."

That is the statement preceding the quote you chose. Props was given. A tad odd to single out this one line when the overall tone of the grading of the coaching staff was positive.

Just saying.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 9:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fair enough.....

I just don’t understand the constant criticism and angst that is shown for TLR and Duncan.

by SoonerfanTU on May 14, 2008 10:03 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And that is a fair opinion

TLR and Duncan obviously have a track record of success. To me, the question isn’t if they are smart baseball men, it is if their current methodology is going to be successful or not. I believe both coaches could stand to re-evaluate how they are approaching forming and utilizing the talent of this particular squad.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 10:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Huh

Aren’t we performing better than nearly anybody thought we would?

by SoonerfanTU on May 14, 2008 10:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Recently

we have been performing exactly how people thought we would.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 10:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thank Izzy for that to some extenet.

He trashed morale pretty good before he finally hung up his closers role.

Seems like after the last one he blew all the air came out of the tires on the bus we call victory.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 14, 2008 10:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Based on the past week

Those with the First Month Soft, reality check forthcoming may have valid points

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on May 14, 2008 10:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A person isn't credible

when they have an opinion that differs from yours? Is that really what you meant to imply here?

by chuckb on May 14, 2008 9:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not at all.....

I just find it hard to find someone credible, when they are obviously letting some kind of personal dislike for someone cloud their judgment over said person’s business accomplishments.

As Cardinal fans, shouldn’t results be (as far as on the field evaluation goes) the only thing that matters when analyzing a pitching coach? Doesn’t matter how he gets the results, or that he works better with a specific type of pitcher, results are results are results. And Duncan is top 5 all time. To say you aren’t a fan of his, when he is bringing LARGE success to your team, is silly. To suggest we’d be better if we had another pitching coach is silly. To suggest we aren’t going to miss TLR and Duncan when they are gone, is again, silly.

That is what I was implying.

by SoonerfanTU on May 14, 2008 10:02 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the problem is

that you say things like “he’s bringing LARGE success” to the team as if it’s an absolute fact and that people are “silly” if they don’t agree w/ your OPINION that Duncan’s bringing LARGE SUCCESS to the team. It’s silly to suggest that another pitching coach might be better than Duncan? It’s silly to suggest that, say, Leo Mazzone might do a better job? Or Larry Rothschild? Or Bud Black? These are all worthy of discussion. It’s not silly to disagree with you or anyone else.

These things you say are all your opinion, and it’s no better or worse than anyone else’s, including RB’s. Now, I would have preferred he support his statement by saying why he’s no fan of Dave Duncan. OTOH, that wasn’t really the point of the post. I would have also preferred you back up your very strong OPINION of Duncan w/ some facts supporting your conclusion that he is among the “top 5 all time.”

by chuckb on May 14, 2008 10:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And the reality

is that the season is merely 25% completed. There is a long way to go, and the end of the season just may reveal that this past month’s starting pitching was simply a good start. To crown the coaching staff as having done an excellent job this year is a bit premature.

Last year’s start was good for the rotation as well, they put up good numbers. Time will tell if the ending of the story will be different.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 10:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bottom line is that Dunc has been a part of our huge success over the years.

Matheny won a gold glove and Yadi was robbed of one as well.

Dunc taught both of them to handle pitchers. He also keeps our staff supplied with proffesional pitchers wether or not they dominate and he does it with bullpen guys and castoffs. Not everyone will be Johan Santana but they can be a Jeff Suppan if they just listen to Dunc and work hard.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 14, 2008 10:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heh

Matheny was a 29-year-old veteran when he signed with the Cards—I think he already knew how to “handle pitchers.”

“Not everyone will be Johan Santana but they can be a Jeff Suppan if they just listen to Dunc and work hard.”

Then sign me up! I could use the cash. But seriously, regarding Suppan—he benefited a lot from the defense playing behind him in St. Louis. You’ve got a pretty romanticized vision of Duncan, it seems.

by jdub176 on May 14, 2008 1:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So he peaked at 29 and never learned anything more at the time we signed him?

He must have constantly been in a state of decline from day 1.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 14, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

what?

That’s not what I said at all, and I don’t know how you could possibly misconstrue it that way. In fact, I’m not sure what you’re even trying to say.

I was just pointing out that he wasn’t a spring chicken when he signed with the Cards. You were insinuating that Duncan taught Matheny everything he knows about handling pitchers. Maybe that’s somewhat true for Molina, who was 21 when he started with the Cards. But Matheny? No.

by jdub176 on May 14, 2008 3:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know more misconstrued what you said than you did what I said...

You can’t tell me that Matheny didn’t learn something from Dunc.

I never said he taught him everything which is how you took it I said he taught him how to handle pitchers.

Maybe I should have said he helped him improve how he handles pitchers.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 14, 2008 3:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

your quote

“Dunc taught both of them to handle pitchers.”

That wasn’t the clearest statement, but OK, I’m sure that Duncan, as a former catcher, helped Mike Matheny become a better catcher. I’m just saying Matheny wasn’t an empty slate. I definitely wasn’t saying that he didn’t learn anything while he was a Cardinal, or that he peaked when he was 29.

by jdub176 on May 14, 2008 3:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know you didn't mean he peaked at 29 I was just pointing out

that he improved over the time he was here in St. Louis.

I like Dunc and think he does a good job.

I know he isn’t the end all be all of pitching gurus but he is succesful at his job.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 14, 2008 3:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

all righty

seems like we’ve come to a diplomatic conclusion.

by jdub176 on May 14, 2008 5:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Me neither....

I can’t stand LaRussa/Duncan haters. I’m used to people hating on LaRussa, but Duncan? Oh yeah, it’s because LaRussa haters automatically hate Duncan if they hate LaRussa. What in the world has Duncan done wrong? All he has done is a good job.

by Cubs Suck on May 14, 2008 9:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like the report card idea.

I know you said you don’t like to give out As this early in the season, but if the report card is just for the first quarter, I don’t see how the starting rotation doesn’t get one. Don’t the Cardinal starters have the second most wins, and the second lowest ERA in the NL? And look at the names that are doing it.

Also, please explain why you think the left side of the bullpen has been bad. I don’t see it. Sure, counting last night, each of them had a bad night, but overall, I think they’ve been pretty good.

by mikeonthecards on May 14, 2008 9:32 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Right on

Flores hasn’t been crap, he’s carrying a decent era in quite a few trips. Now I know, I know he’s allowed some runners inherited. But at least he’s not giving up XBH like candy at the drugstore.

Villone hasn’t been that bad, though I’ll claim short term memory loss.

And frankly, you can’t overlook what Franklin as done so far this year. He’s probably the closest as in playing proximity to the issues with closer and he continued to give the ball to Izzy while holding the score doing so. Not to discourage K-Mac and the promise he’s shown, but you can’t discount what Franklin has brought to the table

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on May 14, 2008 9:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If memory serves me correctly

I think last night was Villone’s only bad outing.

by mikeonthecards on May 14, 2008 9:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He wasn’t all that sharp in our only win against the Brew this last time out.
Gave a perfect pitch to Prince for a HR, a couple walks, another hit. Could have been more runs but there was a caught stealing which saved one.

But before then he was automatic, so I don’t hold either against him (which is why I’ll note short term memory loss)

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on May 14, 2008 10:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

tough grader

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on May 14, 2008 11:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cardinal relievers by WXRL

Franklin 1.348
McClellan 1.102
Reyes 0.202
Springer 0.193
Parisi 0.169
Flores -0.014
Villone -0.175
Thompson -0.399
Izzy -1.868

0 is replacement level, which is something approaching crap. While Izzy is the one that sticks out like a sore thumb here and could probably use a DL trip and rehab stint to get straightened out, I wouldn’t be opposed to dropping one of the LOOGYs to give Perez a shot.

by mikedallas45 on May 14, 2008 12:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is a very accurate account of the team thus far. But does it seem to anyone else there has been a high amount of errors committed by the cards so far. I know some of them can be chalked up as growing pains. Heres to a report card of an A+ for the 2nd quarter.

by at3kevin on May 14, 2008 9:41 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd say the Catchers are a B/B-

My rationale.

Troy has been very cold with the bat outside of 10 days in this quarter. If he’s going to weigh down the corners in the smallest degree. Then LaRue coming in when Molina needs a day off/hissy shouldn’t weigh down what he’s done thus far. His average is up and he’s making better and in general smarter contact, he’s doing what he can with the arm, and while Glaus gains points with the glove, I don’t see LaRue losing anything with his.

And to be fair, I know saying anything negativish towards Albert is a no-no around these parts. But in reality ever since the 2 hole has been less “pop”, more scrap, he’s had a ton of chances with 1, 2 or even 3 on and been induced to grounders or even K’s. And he’s not just had one bad day on the basepaths, but I’d hazard to guess he’s had ten outs on them this year. It all adds up.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on May 14, 2008 9:43 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Based on his track record

wouldn’t you say this is an aberration? It seems to me that Albert is still getting the job done in some big ways, although he has certainly come up short in others. He is but a man.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 9:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh, No Doubt

it’s an aberration, Albert of all people can spoil you when it comes to spoiled chances, he’s probably pressing, and I’m sure he’s trying to punish the walks by overly aggressive base running. Don’t think for a second I think he’s a failure because of the issues at hand. I’m just going by the first quarter.

At the end of the day this team has no choice but to play smart baseball. We have to play to the fundamental core, we don’t have a chance without it.

I’m not saying he, or his game is flawed. Just stating facts, and the issues at hand. His UIBB/IBB rates have went down because the bases have had people on, now we’ll wait for him to unload.

But the report card essentially went the direction of an A for first, lowered to a B because of adding Glaus, and well. I can’t give an A to multiple baserunning gaffs. Even if you disregard the production from clogged bases the past 10 games or so

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on May 14, 2008 9:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

An extremely fair and valid point

I agree, if this team is going to continue to contend then they must be near perfect in the controllable parts of the game. Fundamental baserunning and probably some more patience in key ABs with RISP would go a long way in that.

It seems that the team adjusts when men are on base and their normal, disciplined approach gives way to a more nervous style of hitting that ends up stranding runners. Hopefully our OBP stays strong and our “situational hitting” or whatever you want to call it improves.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 10:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Now THAT'S some tough grading

“I can’t give an A to multiple baserunning gaffs.”

Really?

El Hombre is hitting a stratospheric .348/.503/.600 for a 1.103 OPS.

He has 40 walks to 14 SO.

He plays gold glove defense.

Hell, he’s even 2/3 in stolen bases.

You don’t think that deserves an A?

Granted, he’s made some baserunning gaffes. No argument there. I think he’s overly aggressive, as well, and it’s cost us several unnecessary outs. But his aggressive baserunning also won us that game in COL. When you have a 1.103 OPS and gold glove D, you have more than enough outs saved over the typical player to counter the few that he’s given up on the basepaths from being overly aggressive. If anything, it should really only take him from an A+ down to an A.

And Troy definitely gets a C in my book. B+ for defense, but a D for his poor .237 average and .382 SLG (.740 OPS). Hopefully that’ll pick up.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on May 14, 2008 3:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

report card

I really am not suprised by the pitching we have gotten from the five starters. I saw Welley pitch last year in Pittsburgh and when I got back home I wrote how he deserved a spot in the rotation. Pineiro too was some one I thought was going to be ok and I liked the signing. Looper I had my concerns about. His age was on and his ablity to go deep into games worried me. So I am happy there.
The outfield also is no suprise to me. Again I saw the Schu, Rick, Luddy outfield in Pittsburgh and was gunho for them this year! Many times I have said how good and improved this outfield will be this year.
The middle infield I thought was going to be very scary, so I am very happy with what we have seen so far. I would say more of a c-. The bull pen has been a huge dissapiontment. We certainly would have a comfortable early lead in the division if it were not for the the pitching out of the pen. So much so that I think we may have to change focus some what. A middle infield bat would still be nice, but fixing the pen is more important.

by nybirdfan on May 14, 2008 10:11 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would have to disagree with the middle infield

I would go with a C. Kennedy is improved. Izturis defense has been a plus and with his current walk rate it’s not that bad. Miles is still Miles, and somehow comes through when we need him. Ryan gets a pass from me because he hasn’t been in enough games to really grade.

You are not going to get great power numbers from your middle infield. (obvouisly there are some examples.) This group is servicable with good defense. So im going to go with a C.

by Evilfrog on May 14, 2008 10:27 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmmm...

Are you sure you’re not grading on a curve based upon expectations?

Last I saw, our MI corp, as an aggregate, has one of the lowest OPSes in all of baseball for middle infielders. They certainly field well, but I think they’re costing us a lot more runs at the plate than they are saving us in the field when compared to an average MI.

Personally, I agree with the D+. We desperately need some changes in the MI.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on May 14, 2008 3:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Red Barron

Good job on the report card and I can not disagree too much.

I had been saying all off season how bad the middle infield is. In my opinion here is our best middle infield

Izturis SS
Ryan 2B

I don’t care what Adam Kennedy’s BA is, because if you just watch games Izturis has been hitting the ball harder then Kennedy in my opinion. I really like Izturis at SS, and I think Ryan needs more time at 2B and Miles will just have to lose PT or be a late game replacement. I an not going to hate on Miles because he has a bunch of big hits for the Cards this year, ie.. starting an inning off or driving in a key run. Miles is very good at what he does if he is not put out there 3-4 times a week

by ICbirdfan on May 14, 2008 10:27 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

a few comments

good, fair report card: bullpen probably wouldn’t have broken down as much if Card hitters were not struggling so much to score runs. Inability to score runs often leads to a breakdown of pen. Forget Isturis, let him play, he is as good as Dal Maxvill was on both offense and defense and the Cards went to WS 3 times with Maxvill.
Look for other places to improve offense. I would like to see the Izturis, Ryan combo that ICbirdfan proposed tried. Miles or Kennedy could go, my choice would be Kennedy go. (Kennedy plays nowhere but 2nd) I would fill the spot with someone that can play 3rd and hit with some power. I think before the season is over Glaus is going to need some relief. Might me just me but he seems to be playing a little older than his age: a little tired. Mather, maybe a choice.
If the hitting continues to struggle, stranding runners in late innings as it has lately, the bullpen will not probably come around. You need at least a good relaxing 8 to 3, 9 to 5 win a week for the pitching to survive and the Cards are not getting it.

by ridgesee on May 14, 2008 11:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Glaus does not look healthy....... He had that Plantar problem and had surgery?

He is going to need extended time off as the season goes on. Brendan Ryan should not be playing 3B as the Cards can not afford to have Ryan, Izturis, and Kennedy or Miles in the line up at the same time. That is just zero pop.

Glaus just starts to look more and more gimpy as series go deeper. Ridgessee is correct I believe in that STL needs a back up who can provide some pop when Glaus is not in.

by ICbirdfan on May 14, 2008 11:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ryan v. Kennedy

While I’m not convinced that Ryan represents a definitive improvement over Kennedy, he’s earned his right to sub AK for now, i.e. equal OBP with more upside power. Certainly, he seems capable of matching Kennedy’s production at a lower cost.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on May 14, 2008 11:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Throwing strikes

Wellemeyer is throwing 65% strikes this year, way above career norm of 61%, and still only 27% of those strikes are actually being put in play…slightly below career i.e. lots more pitches are hitting the mitt/foul than usual. I’m inclined to believe we’re seeing a real change and not a mirage: he looks like a legit #2.

With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch

by joker24 on May 14, 2008 10:44 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Can't Say...

...I agree with you here. Welly has been a pleasant surprise, but a legit #2??? No: he’s gone from a bullpen mop-up to 5th starter because he earned it well enough, and he’s pitched as good as a middle of the rotation guy, a #4 or #3 at best. Right now I see him as a solid #4. We have 4 MOR (Middle of Rotation) guys on staff with him, Looper, Pinero, and Lohse; Wainy is the de facto ace, but to me he is the real #2 guy behind Carp. The hope is that Carp will come back and be that ace, or that he is at least as good as a #2, and Wainy improves to be a #1. I think Wainy needs to win about 17 before he becomes that ace that a championship club needs. in a perfect world Carp comes back as good as ever and we have 2 Top of the Rotation guys to lead the 3 MORs. I believe, in fact, that our rotation, barirng injury or further melt-downs, is kind of set: Thompson is in AAA, along with Reyes who odd on will be gone soon; Clement isn’t expected back any time soon, ditto Mulder. Carp should take the place of whoever isn’t performing by August. To me this is a pretty solid pitching rotation, without the sort of noodle-arms that make up most clubs’ 5th starters, or even some of their 4th. If we keep this rotation intact and can stay close, getting Carp back for the end of the season could really make this a dangerous rotation to face in September and beyond.
But we HAVE to sort out our bullpen problems, and that is where some of the kids can come into play. K Mac is good, but I want to see him out there moore. I believe Izzy will re-take his role as closer, but I think we need a secondary closer, someone who might take Izzy’s place every 3rd or 4th save opportunity, both to save Izzy;s arm and as a safety blanket so Izzy doesn’t feel its all on him. That cud be Ryan, or K Mac, or even Chris Perez. I like the Perez option to get him primed as a possible closer in future, and to see what he has. But if Perez comes up someone has to go – to me that would be Springer, who has not cowtributed mooch, and who is older. Maybe Loop can go back to take the role of the long man since he is so versatile. But we do need to sort out the pen asap.

"We're against society, authority, and anything else that ends in y"
- Johnny Rotten

by The MooCow on May 14, 2008 12:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ummm

So far he’s got a 3.56 ERA, striking out 7.88 per 9 with career low 3.00 BB/9 good for a 2.68 K/BB while.

FIP at 3.95 with reasonable HR/FB%/LD%/LOB%. Opponents hitting .233 .296 .409. The pitch by pitch strike data shows real improvement. Still averaging 92.0 on the fastball (best among Cardinals starters) and he’s locating it.

He’s only throwing 6 innings a start and only went 5 IP twice but when he’s been in, he’s been very good. He’s pitching like a #2 so far this year there’s not really much debating that. Whether he can continue it might be in the air, but every statistical measure I know to look at isn’t saying luck at all so far.

With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch

by joker24 on May 14, 2008 12:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh I Agree...

..... that he’s doing well, far better than anyone would have expected, I’m just not ready to assign him the #2 slot in this rotation – maybe if he cowtinues at this pace and wins 15 games for us. Frankly, I hope he does become an established #2, that only makes our team stronger. I’m just saying it’s too early for me to give him moore accolades than saying he established himself as a strong MOR candidate. I hope he gets moore run support soon.

:=8)

"We're against society, authority, and anything else that ends in y"
- Johnny Rotten

by The MooCow on May 14, 2008 12:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

MooCow is right...
2 starters can generally pitch into the 7th inning once every 2 or 3 starts. Everytime he gets into the seventh I get the sinking feeling he’s about to blow 6 innings of solid work because he’s tired and needs to come out.

Welley hits 100 pitches in the 5th and 6th innings nearly every start, and that’s with him throwing 65% of his pitches for strikes. He doesn’t get any easy outs early in the count, so that limits his usefulness because he’s not economical at getting people out.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 14, 2008 12:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Concur

BUT…I think you could argue that his only current deficiency is not consistently getting to the 7th inning.

Also, he HAS pitched 7.0 innings twice so far in 8 starts. Here’s his distribution:
 <5 IP – NONE
 5.0 IP – only twice
 6.0 IP – 4x
 7.0 IP – twice
 >7 IP – NONE

With a 3.56 ERA, 41 hits in 48.0 innings, a 2.6:1 SO:BB ratio, and a 1.19 WHIP, I’ll gladly take that all season.

If he could regularly start getting that 1 additional inning per start due to increased efficiency, I think you can definitely argue for the #2 label.

Personally, I’m not entirely convinced his current performance will continue without some regression, but it’s certainly a very welcome surprise. I’d be delighted if he could continue his current performance, even if he doesn’t usually make it past the 6th.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on May 14, 2008 4:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like the Col alot.

He reminds me of Santana in respect to his ability to stike hitters out with the Fastball/Changeup combo.

He looks like a power pitcher and throws like one too.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on May 14, 2008 10:48 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Slightly Off Topic

But before I actually concentrate on some work…

We have got to stop the bleeding. Irregardless if we gain another power presence in the lineup, we as a team are going to have more games with a 1, 2 or even 3 run differential than we are with 4+. It’s clear it’s going to be that way. But our bullpen is a clear liability. And it doesn’t look to get better. If they settle down and don’t become headcases they’re still looking at a heavy workload. We don’t have pitchers who pitch deep.

We’ve got to use Memphis where it makes sense and start injecting some fresh and eager arms. There’s several options abound down there that could use a little time being called up

In another words, we are always going to be in a situation where we are bullpen liable. Only one of our starters doesn’t become a 6th inning liability on a regular basis.

If this year were truly an experimental year, I’d pull up a couple of the better starters from Memphis and start doing a 2 by 4 platoon with a loogy, a long reliever, a couple setups/shut down pitchers, and a closer.

To me we’d get:
  • the best 4-5 innings out of looper, welly, lohse and pin instead of the 5 innings and then nail biting
  • we’d get waino under a situation where his workload is going to be less stressed but see him a few games more.
  • we’d get to start developing on a MLB level some of our promising Memphis boys, and we’d have a natural showcase of our talent for trade prospects and know what we need going into ‘09
  • we’d be less dependent on the bullpen
  • we’d remove some opportunity costs in AAA for anyone needing some promoted workload
  • we’d be in a situation where Carp would slide back into a role where he’s not needed as a starter but get reasonable work

would we have depth for such a thing? barely.
would it clean up some of the roster issues that could present later in the year? possible
would we rely on our weakest link as much? I wouldn’t think so
would we ever do it? not a chance.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on May 14, 2008 10:53 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good Post

AE. there will probably be some raids made on Memphis pitching before this year is over.

by ridgesee on May 14, 2008 11:30 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Problems with this strategy.

(list)
1. The Cardinals only have 1 pitcher on the current starting staff locked up past 2009. Certainly the club is not going to replace Looper, Piniero, Lohse, and Wellemeyer all with free agent talent if they leave, so the starters at Memphis are going to be replacing some of these guys.
2. If you start pulling guys up from Memphis to pitch long relief instead of getting starts, they don’t get to work on pitching into the 6th and 7th innings, which they will have to do when they are starting in the big leagues.
3. Bringing up Motte and Perez right now puts a ton of pressure on them to perform immediately because of the defectiveness of the current pen. As we saw with Ankiel, sometimes you can destroy a pitchers confidence so much by putting them in a bad situation that they never fully reach their potential.
4. I don’t see how this makes us less dependant on the bullpen—it seems to me it makes the whole pitching staff revolve around the bullpen. With this set-up you’d have 3 pitchers available each game to cover, but they then wouldn’t be available for a couple of days after that. Without carrying 14 pitchers, I don’t see how this works without burying the bullpen arms when a starter can’t get out of the 3rd inning.

I can see some value to it, but I think it hurts the long term strategy of player development, which is what everyone was clamoring about prior to this year. You don’t scrap the whole plan because the current club is playing well.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 14, 2008 12:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Way after the fact

But I was thinking about the 8 “starters” being

well, looper, pin, welly, lohse, waino, parisi and two other starters from memphis.

Reyes can be back in the discussion for all that matters. If everyone else on shared starts, then it couldn’t hurt his trade value but going up. and he’s getting enough work to where he may be reasonably effective.

You can pick and part from the one, two inning needs from the relief core, you can even use the DL/Memphis to your advantage to try to keep arms fresh should something go awry.

As far as your list, I’ll address point by point.

1.) Yes, we don’t have anyone tied up. Carp and Waino post ‘09, probably one more out of the current staff will be there as well. However, this allows us to get some big league innings under the belt and see what we have post ‘09. Furthermore, there’s not a pressure to go 6-7 as realistically 4 will do just fine from the younger core, the older core could handle a 5 inning stretch.

2.) If you look at our current staff then the argument for “having stamina through the career” falls apart with our bullpen to starter setup. These guys would be getting more than a couple of innings of work and would be in a dual starter role. Stamina can be addressed in spring training and development heading into the next season where this approach wouldn’t factor.

3.) My memphis digging resolves around starters at its heart, so it doesn’t really apply. A lot were clamoring for Perez to come in and close, so that kinda goes face to face on the pressure concerns. However, my concept does look at Garcia, or a couple of the other starters getting into this rotation. I’m not a fan of dodging bringing up talent in the fear of the Rick situation. Collapses like that are once in a generation, not every day.

4.) It makes us less dependant as we technically by pitch count and innings can go a whole game on two pitchers without needing a pen per se. Waino can go 5 and Looper can go 4, or however they’re matched up. If we do get into a situation where we need relief, it won’t be on a massive set of innings (crushed in 3 innnings so now we need a whole 6 innings of relief) as we’ll have the second starter coming in anyways,so why not in the fourth which should be able to pitch in the 8th and then the closer can take over.

By design, it should remove a lot of need in the ‘pen. And during the odd times where we need to have it, we can always 15 day DL, or use memphis and option down someone to bring in a fresh arm. The bullpen won’t carry all of these guys as it is, so rotating them out won’t be that bad of an idea.

Techincally I’m not scraping anything, I’m bringing a couple more pitchers who will play longer than 3-6 outs, secondly it should show us some of the progress of the pitchers we have and open up more opportunity costs, not have less. Which is the system we have now, as the “if X player comes back” arguments show.

I use statistics much as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – as support rather than illumination. - Andrew Lang

by AdjustedExpectations on May 15, 2008 12:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yadi

I didn’t like the comments on Yadi.

To the Barron’s credit, he did say that “many people won’t agree with me”. I guess I’m one of them.

And correct me if I am wrong, but doesn’t Yadi have pretty good numbers in “clutch” situations? He seems to be improving as a hitter…remember Yadi was rushed through the minors because of his defense. I just think his bat needed time to develop.

To me having a high quality glove who is deadly throwing runners out and picking off first AND controlling the pitching staff is a HUGE “resource”.

You may give Molina a “C”, but I put if we made Yadi available we’d have 29 teams calling Mo with pretty damn good offers.

by jeffrw on May 14, 2008 10:57 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

Everyone has love for Mike Matheny it seems, and Yadi is currently outperfoming even Matheny’s best 6 week stretch at the dish and behind it.

IMO, any offense they get from him is a plus, because his defensive prowess and handling of pitchers saves the Cardinals a ton of runs over a long season. Regardless of what defensive metrics say (hardly and exact science), it’s obvious that the team is not the same defensively when he is out of the game.

Now he’s hitting near .300, hitting over .350 with RISP, has had innumberable clutch hits in the past two years, is the best defensive catcher in baseball, bar none, and he gets a C? To me he’s at least a B and probably a B+. I wouldn’t sacrifice his defensive abilities for a catcher who has a .800 OPS, hits 20 homersm, and is below average defensively—especially with the current pitching staff.

There are only 6 current catchers OPSing above .800: Soto, McCann, Martin, Mauer, Pierzinski, V. Martinez. Yadi is at .724 and 6th in the NL. I’ll take that from a superior defensive player any day.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 14, 2008 11:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would like

compliment Molina more on his defense because he blocks balls so well and throws so great but I just can’t get used to all that jumping around behind the plate and I wonder if it is not effecting some of the pitchers, but they are afraid to complain because Molina is such a La Russa, Duncan and Pujols favorite.Last night, I don’t see how Franklin could not be thrown off by how Molina was setting up on one particular LH batter. (I don’t recall who) but he was almost hidden from view behind the batter. I see no good reason for this and Franklin did end up walking the batter.
I know this is going to draw a lot of ire from some Molina fans, but if he could hit, I would just as soon see La Rue behind the plate. I like the way he sets up, just like Bench did and all the good catchers I can remember. Honestly if 29 other teams want him and somebody is will to give up good value for him, I would consider trading him.

by ridgesee on May 14, 2008 12:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Franklin

Has a really hard time getting the ball in on batters, which is what they were trying to do in that at-bat: Get the ball in on the hands and force a weak groundout. If you look at where the infield was set-up, this was the exact gameplan (I believe this was LaRoche you’re talking about). Yadi is overcompensating by setting up way inside—he does this with pitchers that have trouble hitting locations like Franklin and Wellemeyer.

You’ll notice that he doesn’t do this much with pitchers who know the gameplan and follow it like WW and Carp. He basically sets up just like every other catcher with those guys.

We should bench or trade a guy who’s hitting .280, throwing out 55% of basestealers, and handling the 3rd best starting staff in the NL for someone who, you think, sets up behind the plate like everyone else and is average to below average in every other aspect of the game? I don’t see how you can even make this argument.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 14, 2008 12:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well now don't put words in my mouth

Fourstick, I said nothing about benching Molina and I didn’t say I wanted to trade him: only that if he was so in demand by 29 other clubs and someone would give up good value to help fill a greater need: you know like a good pitcher, then I would consider (did you get the word consider fourstick) trading him. In other words, I don’t consider him untouchable down the road. Now we don’t have a replacement ready.
You write well but you don’t read too good, I don’t need you to throw his stats at me. I know them.
Even with the reasoning you gave for his extensive movements, I still don’t like it and don’t see it as a solution to the problem and I still wonder if it is not a handicap to certain pitchers, especially young pitchers not used to it. Besides I think, hitters can feel, sense, hear and see out of their perphial vision what is happening when you go to molina’s extreme. That is just my opinion and it might not be a problem, as I said I just find it hard to get used too and adds nothing IMO.

by ridgesee on May 14, 2008 1:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i definitely agree with the movement thing

I think that the other day, when Cameron hit a double off of a good 0-2 inside pitch, he KNEW an inside pitch was coming. The MIL announcers even commented on it. And I think it was because Yadi hopped inside.

As a hitter, you can sense movement like that- catchers equipment is noisy- and that has to hurt the pitcher since it’s harder to hit a moving target. Even when he hits his location the pitch will be less effective because the batter knows which side of the plate it’s going to be on.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 14, 2008 1:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

SleepyCa

you are wise for you years.

by ridgesee on May 14, 2008 1:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And

don’t you think the word is going to get around the league to listen out for Molina back there he tell you where the pitch is going to be…could already be a well kept secret.

by ridgesee on May 14, 2008 2:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

catchers setting up

their movement can always be felt/detected/seen. Runners can signal the batter inside or out very easily if the catcher sets up too early and/or the batter can glance back ever so briefly, usually without getting caught, if the catcher sets up too early. Of course seeting up late has dissadvantages too, as you point out.

I’ve had different coaches tell me to take different approaches and I’ve had some pitchers tell me I was setting up too late for them and others tell me I was setting up too early. I think you have to balance what you think the batter is doing and what the pitcher wants and what you/the manager’s philosophy is on the subject. Personally I’ve always thought setting up as late as possible without disrupting the pitcher is preferrable. Often I would jump to location during a pitchers delivery, like Yadi does at times unless a specific pitcher asked me not too.

You may disagree, but most catchers, ex-cathcers and catching coaches I discussed this with have agreed with that approach. Either way you go, you risk giving away location to the batter, but generally the thought I’ve been taught is that it’s more difficult to adjust essentially on sound/sense just as the pitch is about to be released than be able to look back or be signalled the location several seconds before the pitch is released.

by fltfire on May 14, 2008 6:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've never been a catcher

so you are probably right about when to move etc, but I’ve never seen anyone move as much as yadi does. He sets up WAY outside or WAY inside more than anyone else I can remember seeing.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 14, 2008 6:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

setting up off the plate

ridgesee brings this up too below. I didn’t see the at bat in question, but certainly catchers set up off the plate and position their body to try to extend the strike zone. I think Yadi is great at doing so.

ridgesee mentions a foot inside or out – clearly that’s not extending the zone. But, perhaps their scouting report showed the batter in question chases, or they were pitching around the batter. May point is that if Yadi is setting up that far inside or out, clearly they are not trying to throw a strike – the target is out there, so why should he be closer. In fact, that sort of call may have even come from the bench.

by fltfire on May 14, 2008 9:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I read just fine thanks....
but if he could hit, I would just as soon see La Rue behind the plate.

That certainly sounds like you’d bench Yadi for a Larue who could hit—not sure how anyone’s reading skill could construe otherwise. Maybe you should be more careful with how you word things so you don’t “get taken out of context”. You leave me no choice but to throw stats at you, because Larue clearly isn’t a better catcher, but because he “sets up well”, in your opinion, you’d rather see him back there? That makes no sense.

BTW rigdsee, it certainly seems to me that you don’t understand catching - Yadi’s one of the best receivers I’ve seen in recent years. Matheny also set up late, similar to what Yadi does - I wonder where he picked up this trait. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it isn’t effective—and he’s catching a top 5 starting staff. It’s hard to argue with those results.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 14, 2008 8:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fourstick

just finished watching tonights game and loved the way Molina caught. less jumping around, worked Wellemeyer well. No complaint, don’t want him traded, Ok if I think La Rue is smooth catcher also. Liked him when he was with Cincy and could hit a little.Think he has worked Cards pitchers good so far this year, great backup catcher. Shame he is not hitting more. Throws good, not Molina but adequate.

Molina’s constant jumping around at times annoys me, especially late in games, key spots, relief pitchers trying to throw strikes, don’t think it is necessary, don’t think it helps, might hurt some pitchers, think it has cost us a game or two.Most teams catchers are not as active as Molina, yet still win. Has baseball been in the dark for over a hundred years and it took this long for Molina to show the world how it done. Duncan obviously doesn’t see a problem with it and allows it and he does for sure know more than me, but I remember Duncan well as a catcher and he didn’t do that. I thought Duncan was a smooth catcher, what
baseball people used to refer to as a “rocking chair catcher”
Is Molina such a “sacred cow” to you that he is above any critisizm and does this satisfy your prickly little ass….....just kidding fourstick

by ridgesee on May 15, 2008 12:01 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

molina's set-ups

I didn’t see the at bat you are talking about and every pitcher is different – they may all react differently to different set-ups. But as I’ve said before on here, as long-time catcher, I think that molina is the best reciever I’ve seen behind the plate (though certainly not the best blocker). He catches every ball effortlessly a frames balls without the quick jerky movement that looses strike calls. It would be impossible to calculate, but from a former catcher’s perspective, he gets his pitcher’s more strike calls with his frames (and that includes his positioning) than anyone else in the game.

by fltfire on May 14, 2008 5:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The last thing a pitcher should see

as he releases the ball is the catchers mit and if it is a foot off the plate that, to me is not good. When Pena was traded to the Cards he started jumping around like Molina and Torre put a stop to that shit.
I was a catcher in HS, American Legion and semi-pro and I was taught to be late and coy with my movements. Molina jumps around like a horse behind the plate and sometimes jumps out even before the pitcher goes into windup. He is the most extreme I have ever seen and I just see need of it. I like Molina otherwise.

by ridgesee on May 14, 2008 8:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wow

now you’re just making things up…

Molina jumps around like a horse behind the plate

That’s just a bit overdramatic don’t you think?

Dave Duncan was a pretty good catcher in his day, I’m sure that he’d correct things if he felt something was wrong with the way Yadi is receiving the ball—lets just leave it up to the professionals eh?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 14, 2008 8:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

horse jumping behind the plate

that would have to be one tiny horse

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 14, 2008 9:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yadi's movements

I haven’t watched as many games this year as I’d have liked to, but in years past I haven’t had the same impression in terms of jumping around like a horse with any frequency.

Outside of setting up – i.e. when he recieves the ball – I think Molina is the smoothest catcher I’ve seen.

by fltfire on May 14, 2008 9:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not so fast my friend

B-R shows Yadi’s 2008 BA RISP at .226 with a .258 SLG with a “late and close” line of .200/.273/.250. His 2007 BA RISP line was .239/.333/.304. You have to go all the way back to 2005 to find a good RISP line for him of .330/.369/.430. In 2007 he did have a good “late and close” line of .353/.414/.451.

Not trying to bash Yadi, but I think the folks that get on him for his lack of offensive production have a good point. I like his overall development as a hitter, but the notion that he has been a clutch performer is something of a stretch. Given his abysmal lack of speed he needs to hit more doubles and maybe even hit double figures in HRs to be adequate.

I want to believe the argument about how many runs he saves by his handling of pitchers, but if that is really true then I cringe to imagine how awful the pitching staff could have been last year. Undeniable that he stifles the running game, but a poor hitting catcher is clearly a burden on a team with one of the least productive middle infields in baseball.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 15, 2008 1:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree...

.... Yadi has really improved his hitting, and is one of the premier catchers int he game, both in his defensive capabilities and in controlling the game. And he has great attitude and hustle. I give him a B+ and cownt him as one of the big pluses our club has.

"We're against society, authority, and anything else that ends in y"
- Johnny Rotten

by The MooCow on May 14, 2008 12:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To play devils advocate....the problem is we already have too many weak or empty hitters

and it makes Molina look like a liability.

We have Skip, Izturis, Molina, Kennedy, Miles, Ryan who basically can hit for average and no power.

Now out of those Molina is the best hitter and brings the most to the table on D.

but you can only have so many of those guys.

the difference is we have a guy in the minors who catches and hits.
If we are going to let the middle IF continue to stink they are going ot have to get hitteres somewhere or we are going to have automatic outs.

yadi can hit but he is slow, and shows very little power.
Yeah, he shuts down the running game and thats neat and a plus but its not like its the 80s and everyone is trying to make runs stealing either.

then again he is one of my favorite players for all the other things he brings…

though having a catcher who can really hit (with some speed) is tempting.
Then again Anderson might be one of those guys who just hit for average. i dont know.

If you are in St. Louis check out my band, Griffin and the Gargoyles
(formerly Gargoyle Reign, Gargoyle Lounge)

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com
www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles

:-D

by jealousblues on May 14, 2008 3:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

don't really disagree

but Molina is the best defender among such players and also the best hitter. Furthermore, catcher is (again, remember this is a catcher speaking) the position that has far and away more influence on the game (other than pitcher). That is why guys like Mathney can still be assets to a team. Yadi is a better hitter than Matheny ever was and is still getting better. One the whole, he is the best defensive player in the game and arguably the best in several generations (I think only pudge in his prime could argue otherwise).

Anderson has only been in AAA for a few weeks. He looks promising, but to say he's unproven is an understatement. I have not seen him play, so I don't know about his defense, though I've heard mixed reviews. An offensive catcher can go a long way to make up for average, below average, or severally below average defense (see Mike Piazza). We have a proven commodity in Molina, who should be a prennial golden glove winner and (in my opinion) will be an all-star in the future.

With such a proven commodity at such an important pposition, it makes more sense to me to try and package anderson to get a similarly promising player at a position we need help at (see middle infield).

by fltfire on May 14, 2008 5:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

quote box

don’t know how that happened – wasn’t a quote and it was meant to continue, “unproven is an understatement”

by fltfire on May 14, 2008 5:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

According to the numbers -

Yadi’s hitting only .228 with RISP, and has amassed a mere 12 ribs. Hardly clutch.

by Urban Pawnee on May 14, 2008 4:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

grade cards

If I am little Skip Schumaker or Todd Wellemeyer, I sure am pissed that I’m taking my progress report home to mommy without an ‘A’—just because the teacher “doesn’t give them out this early”! It’s like the ol’ how good are you on a scale of 4 to 7 test!

i’m just a kool-aid guzzler, and i’ll certainly need to adjust my own expectations at some point, but this team clearly has some ‘A’ components thus far, IMO.

by baw on May 14, 2008 11:02 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A little ass-kissy with Duncan, aren't we?

No reason to bash baron over your personal opinions. Well said, baron, I agree with practically everything you’ve stated. If not for K-Mac, I’d give the bullpen an F—they’ve failed, after all.

Rasmus or bust.

by Zoop on May 14, 2008 11:18 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes and No

I agree with RIDGESEE in that the pen starts to look worse when you play a ton of close games like STL has since they can’t blow anyone out. Factor that in with pitchers not going deep and you start to get exposed over time.

by ICbirdfan on May 14, 2008 11:22 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fewer HRs = High LOB = losses

Glaus isn’t hitting HRs like expected. The middle infield is girly weak and can only be counted on for singles and OBP. Behind the plate, Molina is who he is and LaRue is an offensive black hole. Mr. Pujols isn’t getting to see many pitches to drive and hit HRs because no one else in the line-up is a predicatably strong slugger. Much has been made of the offensive production of the outfield. Yes, higher than expected BA and OBP are to be praised, but there’s so little PREDICTACBLE slugging power there that the team is suffering. Ankiels is streaky; Barton doesn’t hit HRs; Duncan (Halloween scary in the field) is an offensive melt-down from where we’d hoped he be; Shumaker is an on-base guy; Only Ludwick is a consistent HR threat. I know that the outfield is sort of bright spot thus far, but honestly, the Cardinals have declined in efficient/timely slugging from all three OF positions. This team doesn’t have the speed to play small-ball and win with efficiency and there are no upgrades to be had at middle infield. I know the outfield seems crowded and of low concern, but trades/upgrades must be made in the OF for the team to compete.

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

by palampe on May 14, 2008 11:32 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Time...

....to bench Duncan and go with Ankiel, Schumaker, and Ludwick.

"We're against society, authority, and anything else that ends in y"
- Johnny Rotten

by The MooCow on May 14, 2008 12:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

really?

Is it just me or does Schumaker turn outs into singles, and singles into doubles a lot. Every time a ball is hit to the field he is playing in it always seems like you are just waiting for him to come into frame and he just never does.

If Duncan was playing left field on those playes he would be stumbling into the frame. Make and make an akward play. I just seems like he always drifts thwards center field. I know; people will say it’s positioning; but none of the other outfielders seem to consently have this issue.

by Evilfrog on May 14, 2008 12:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've really wondered about that too

Why the fuck does Skip play so far towards center? Seems like he’s the only one who does it—I don’t recall anyone else playing that far over. Positioning, I understand. What I don’t understand is why we have two speedy guys bunched up in right center and center, (Ankiel and Schu) when they both have above average range, IMO.

by Ray Lankford on May 14, 2008 12:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I brought this up a week ago

It does seem to almost always be Shumaker but I was reminded that positioning came from the bench, so I dropped Shumaker in my next complaint the other day.. If you will think back to earlier in the season it was only happening when Schumaker shifted to left field in the later innings that he would play toward center, Then Schumaker started playing more toward center in RF.That is another little mystery to me and it is biting the team without a doubt. Maybe Fourstick knows: help us out Fourstick, I respect your opinions.

by ridgesee on May 14, 2008 1:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ok Grand Wizard...

Positioning does come from the bench—it actually comes off of Duncan’s pitching cards for each hitter. You don’t see this from the dugout because each player is giving a scouting report before each game and it’s gone over before each series as to how they are going to play certain hitters.

You’ll notice that TLR and Dunc don’t go with traditional “no doubles” defense in the late innings and will usually go off their scouting reports more often than not.

As someone who played so much baseball, ridgesee, I figured you’d have known this. Don’t patronize someone because they don’t agree with your opinions. You want to start basing things on fact than start backing them up with facts. It’s called debate silly!

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 14, 2008 8:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Three Nights

This was actually covered very well in Bissinger’s book, and also is covered in the TLR section of Men at Work by George Will. If you don’t believe me, do some reading.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 14, 2008 8:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Without having time to do

research on it, I think you’re onto something here. The power in the outfield is fine, but if it’s a collection of solo HRs it’s not helping all that much. I want to see more from Ank & Luddy with the sacks jammed.

by MdRedbirdFreak on May 14, 2008 2:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The way that Tony uses the bull pen

while maybe realistic, makes it see very fragile and old. I would never have sent Lohse out in the Seventh inning last night, with the way the scoring evolved. The perception that the bullpen needed to be “saved” came back to haunt. Taking a left handed specialist and say, “this is you inning”, didn’t feel right. Springer and Izzy are good, but old and fragile, Kyle is in need of protection, might need him tomorrow…Parisi is young, may need a long man tomorrow…...Flores has scuffled a bit lately. A guy gives a quality start, pitch count in the 90s, and he still looks like your best solution. Lohse , Wainwright, Pienero all should be protected in that situation. If Izzy is out, put him on the 15day and get some young power arms up here. We are lucky to have the starting rotation providing so many opportunities to win. The bubble is about to pop I think,,,,,,,I don’t even want to talk about “situational hitting”.......I watch a lot of baseball…..this team has one professional hitter…...period..

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on May 14, 2008 11:59 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

agree with your comments re tony's management last night

he stayed with lohse too long, and for no apparent reason; very costly mistake. but i can’t agree with the last comment. i’ve watched a lot of baseball too in my 45 years; troy glaus is a professional hitter. ryan ludwick looks like a hitter to me. the jury is still out on ankiel, but he’s slugging .500 and has nearly as many walks as strikeouts — looks like a hitter. if they didn’t have offensive zeroes at 2b and ss, this would be a very good lineup.

by lboros on May 14, 2008 12:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I, too, was with WCBW

until the last sentence…that boggles my mind.

by silent_bob on May 14, 2008 12:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pittsburg play a double hitter

the night before…........young pitcher, bases loaded, bottom of the ninth, facing number 4. You don’t swing at the first pitch…..........with ONE exception…....He gives you a perfect pitch to do the right thing with…......which is hit a single and go home. The kid makes a pitchers pitch at the bottom of the zone, since he is a rookie, he probably doesn’t get the call, and then try take it deep and left, where it did not want to go. If your playing on a good college team, your going to be riding pine for a month for that idiotic blunder…...................Pirates in the seventh….....Lohse makes a good pitch…...hitter is looking away, nice long extend cut, (Ankiel can’t do this) gets the outside four inches and drives it opo….......nice hitting…......second guy comes up, he is going to hit behind the runner at all costs, (Ludwig and Glaus can’t) takes another good pitch, inside out , and gets great contact, all the write things to produce a sac fly or a ground ball were done…oh neat a double. To good at bats…................If Ludwig want to go yard …3-1 2-2 2-3 All good counts to get a pitch up where you can drive it…........ first pitch…....brain fart…. or rookie bizzareo.

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on May 14, 2008 3:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he probably should have took a pitch

but with the way Beethoven has been hitting, I am willing to give him a few passes. Hell, you learn as you go. This team is without a doubt in need of learning a few things, that happens in a youth movement.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 14, 2008 6:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

of course

I never made it to the majors as a hitter. He liked the pitch, that is all you can really ask for

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 14, 2008 6:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I posted some stuff on this yesterday...

Ankiel takes some pretty bad AB’s in key situations - look at his numbers in the 7th inning on this season: .136/.240/.273 Clutch situations - here’s his Late&Close numbers: .182/.280/.318.

Now, I can’t prove that clutch hitting is a scientific fact, but taking good at-bats in those situations sure helps, and managers are figuring out that they can get Rick out situationally by throwing pitches off the plate and letting him fish for them. He was the first guy to face Mota the other night out of the pen and Mota threw him one strike in the entire at-bat. Ankiel swung through a 3-1 pitch that was 6-8 inches off the plate and through a 3-2 pitch that was in nearly the same spot.

I think that Glaus understands how to work counts and Ludwick is taking a lot more pitches lately on his hot streak. Molina, Pujols, and Schumaker have by far the best at-bats situationally - consequently they are also guys who produce better in the clutch and in key situations when the game is close. The key word that WCBW used was “situational” - this has everything to do with how batters approach the situation when they come to the plate.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 14, 2008 12:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

late innings

I’d like to raise the small sample size red flag on Ankiel’s late inning stats. He’s had 50 PA’s after the 7th inning – his BABIP is .129. In 2007, his late inning and clutch stats were right in line with his stats for the season as a whole, albeit with a small sample size. I guess the jury’s still out.

by jdub176 on May 14, 2008 1:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm just looking

at what I’ve seen with my own eyes. The stats seem to back me up so far this year. I agree that it’s a small sample size, but when he’s swinging at pitches out of the zone (and this is far from the only case so far this year, I could come up with a few more as well) I don’t see those numbers improving. I just don’t think that he can continue to approach at-bats like that and see any success—he’s a pretty patient hitter most of the time, it’s just in certain situations that he starts hacking.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 14, 2008 8:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you can't see his numbers improving...

..even though his BABIP after the 7th is .129?

by jdub176 on May 14, 2008 9:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ankiel

does have a tendency to be over anxious in key spots and that is a fact. I for one am willing to give him more time though. When I see him fail, I just remind myself of what few bats he does have as a hitter. Even Pujols is getting a little anxious and trying to do too much because of the low production around him and I would certainly hate to see him get messed up. I would like for Ankiel to be able to spend some time in the 6th spot with a little less pressure.

by ridgesee on May 14, 2008 1:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rick Ankiel

is a delicate flower.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on May 14, 2008 1:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i have always wondered...

if the pressure to be “clutch” is great for some guys and just terrible for others? i tend to believe that if a hitter is healthy and has a good approach at the plate, he will hit with fairly predictable results to his skill level. maybe with some streaks and slumps of course. but the idea of clutchiness seems to me to encourage players to alter their approach in clutchy situations. i hate to sound like joe morgan, but wouldn’t most hitters be better off if they tried to remain as consistent as possible with their hitting (assuming they aren’t in need of some obvious improvement)? i feel like if a good hitter just tries to do what he always does regardless of who’s on base or how many outs there are, positive results will follow enough times. maybe i’m trying to say that anything “clutch” a hitter produces beyond his normal rate is a bonus, and that non-clutch players might be suffering from trying to be clutch.
but i’m not even sure i believe in clutchitude, which joe morgan clearly does.

by mattybobo on May 14, 2008 2:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Still not sold on ludwick...

He has certainly been doing tremendously this year, but he has to prove that he can keep it up for a longer period of time. Last year, he had an OBP of .339, which was a pretty lowly career high, and he had 72 strikeouts in only 339 plate appearances, which is about 1K for every 4.7 PA’s. Once again, his numbers are much better this year, but he has to show us it isn’t just a hot streak.

"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it."- Rogers Hornsby

by redbirds8233 on May 14, 2008 5:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So give us a benchmark

at which you’re “sold.” How many plate appearances of pounding the ball will get you to that point? (I’m not trying to break your balls, but when you make that comment you should offer a goal for the guy to shoot at.)

by MdRedbirdFreak on May 14, 2008 5:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm just saying...

there is a difference between a truly good hitter, and a mediocre hitter having a hot streak. Remember Chris Shelton? He had 10 home runs in April, and then didn’t even match that total for the rest of the season. I’m not saying Ludwick won’t be a great hitter, he very well could be, but he also needs more than a good month and a half to prove that. If he can keep up his current pace until the all-star break, then I will be “sold” on him as a good hitter.

"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it."- Rogers Hornsby

by redbirds8233 on May 14, 2008 6:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Love it, RB!!!

One question…

How can you not mention Ludwick’s name in your progress report?

Tied for the team lead in HR’s
Playing excellent defense
batting line of .336/.410/.701

It’s obviously early…but he’s off to an MVP type start, and he was supposed to be a 4th outfielder.

by cardzfanbub on May 14, 2008 12:09 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he's just made at him

For swinging at the first pitch lastnight with bases loaded and two outs in the 9th in a tie game.

Or maybe he isn’t. But I am.

by Evilfrog on May 14, 2008 12:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah you can see my thought above on that choice by Ludwick.........

Just plain stupid AB by Lud…. Oh well, that’s baseball.

My biggest complaint was it appeard to be a bit down and looked to be a pitchers pitch. If it was groved I guess I would not care as much, however I would like to see Lud work the count a bit as all the pressure is on the pitcher in that situation.

by ICbirdfan on May 14, 2008 12:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was a terrible AB but...

it’s what Ludwick has done all year, he is a first pitch hacker. I don’t know how to find the stats, but i’d imagine he’s swung at the first pitch in greater than 70% of his at bats.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on May 14, 2008 12:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

unfortunately, he hasn't

He’s only swung at the first pitch 13 times out of 122 PA’s. Or rather, he’s only put the first pitch in play 13 times; I’m sure he’s fouled some off or swung and missed a couple. Anyway, in those 13 times, he has 3 home runs, 7 hits, and a .538/.538/1.462 line (yes, a 2.000 OPS!).

He can swing at the first pitch any time he wants, in my book.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 14, 2008 12:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Right

I don’t really get that upset about first-pitch swings unless its against a new pitcher. People only bitch about first-pitch swings when the result wasn’t good. I remember Luddy lacing some low balls into gaps before, so I don’t really care if he swung at one a couple inches below his knees. It just burns because it didn’t turn out differently.

by Ray Lankford on May 14, 2008 12:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i dont mind him swinging at the first pitch

I just don’t really think that situation called for it. Salas was on the ropes, and their is the added pressure of pitching with the bases loaded in a “run scores – game over” situation that can cause inexperienced pitchers to lose the zone. A walk would’ve been just as good as a hit there, so he should’ve tried to work the count. That’s just my opinion though.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on May 14, 2008 1:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly

I normally dont agree with Ranconteur. Nor do I normally get upset at a FPS. But when a walk wins it the same as a hit. And the guy has walked 3 batters already in the inning.. Well, I would have liked it if Ludwick would have spent a little bit more time there.

by Evilfrog on May 14, 2008 1:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with the premise

I’d rather he take a strike there too.

But let’s remember Salas intentionally walked Schu. He basically intentionally walked Pujols. His control may not have been as off as the stats might indicate there though.

But like I said, I agree – I hate not taking a pitch there.

by Merry CRasmus on May 14, 2008 3:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For what it's worth...

in today’s P-D story, Ludwick said:

Ludwick said, “It was right where I was looking. Down where I like it. I couldn’t have asked for a better pitch I just didn’t get the job done, that’s all there is to it. It’s frustrating.”

Sounds like he got the pitch he wanted; just missed it… that’s baseball!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on May 14, 2008 1:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hate baseball

It’s okay. I still love studwick; glovewick, and thudwick; Just not a fan of popupwick.

by Evilfrog on May 14, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not swinging at the 1st pitch just because is little league

these are big boys and they have an eye on a pitch they can drive, as lud already said the pitch was perfect.

If hitting a baseball so easy the homerun derby would never end and batting practice would be a homerun derby itself….but it’s not. Even with the ball coming in with no movement belt high, middle of the plate in the 80s isn’t going to get hit well 100% of the time…more like 40%-50% of the time and you even know it’s coming.

Don’t believe me go to the batting cage today.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on May 14, 2008 3:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, that was a bit strange

Without Luddy, this team is probably tied for last place.

I also don’t get how come Skip is called the “Best so far”, with a .765 OPS, which is well below Juan Encarnacion-level performance and not acceptable out of even a very good defensive corner OF (which, with all the extra bases he’s given up lately, I’m not sure he is, no matter where the positioning orders come from) while Duncan has a .768 OPS and is “the disappointment.”

In my mind, that can only be because Duncan has the potential to do a whole lot more, and Skip is playing at or above his potential offensively. It’s like comparing an honors student to a stoner type, seeing they both got the same grade on a test, and giving one a C and the other an A because you expected less out of the stoner.

It’s definitely fair, imho, to say that Duncan has disappointed, because he has. But it’s not fair or accurate to say that Skip has been good. He’s had some good moments, and is a fun player to watch because of his hustle and grit, but he is costing Duncan and Ludwick playing time and he is standing between Joe Mather and St Louis, right now.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 14, 2008 12:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed...

But Duncan can’t lead off, which you aren’t factoring in to that equation. This is the only reason the Skip keeps getting PT in the outfield: The Cardinals don’t have a middle infielder that’s an effective leadoff person.

I posted a few days back that I’d like to see this lineup trotted out there against RH starters just to see what happens:

1. Kennedy 2B
2. Ludwick/Duncan OF
3. Pujols 1B
4. Ludwick Duncan OF
5. Glaus 3B
6. Ankiel OF
7. Molina C
8. Pitcher
9. Izturis/Ryan SS

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 14, 2008 1:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why can't duncan lead off?

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 14, 2008 1:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

why not?

its not like the cardinals USE speed at the top of the lineup.

by longhornscardinals on May 14, 2008 2:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

BTW i like your lineup, wasn't trying to dismiss it

though I would do a Ryan/Kennedy platoon in the leadoff spot, and Ankiel 5th, but that is semantics. It is definitely a waste of a corner outfielder to use skip as an everyday player because you “need a leadoff man”.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 14, 2008 1:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Looking at it now...

I would too…Ryan would leadoff against lefties and Kennedy against righties. I think they just swap the 9 and 1 spots though—I’d much rather see Ryan in the lineup than Izturis. I actually think that Ludwick makes the best 2 hole hitter, and with Duncan in the cleanup spot you get the RLRL in the 3-4-5-6 that TLR loves so much situationally in the late innings.

I’m working on doing some lineup analysis with the current season and comparing it to career numbers to see what the best lineup would be with the players that we have. It’s just taking forever, but I can say that the lineup above, with the current statistics, is a top 3 lineup with Pujols batting third, which he will always do.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on May 14, 2008 9:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Because Juan Encarncion did not have the grit factor....................................

That is a great analogy, Skip is overperforming and who knows if he can keep it up.

This team has a bunch of unknows at this point.

by ICbirdfan on May 14, 2008 2:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My favorite part of the post:
Jason LaRue, on the other hand, really only has his mullet and his facial hair going for him. Since he’s not riding a Harley up to the plate, he doesn’t bring a whole lot of value, entertainment or otherwise.

Golden!

Can’t really explain why I’m focusing on the backup catcher portion of the post, since it was a good post overall.

by silent_bob on May 14, 2008 12:14 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

my opinions

pretty good post, but the first thing I thought of was that Ludwick has been an even more pleasant surprise in the outfield than Skip. But Ankiel’s great defense in center has been the most interesting thing in the outfield I think. The outfield has the potential to be the main strength on this team though, but not everything is clicking yet. I think that will be relieved with some more experience and getting used to each other’s counterparts in the outfield. Obviously, Chris Duncan is the drag here.

As for Dave Duncan and TLR, I think that they are both very effective still, but that perhaps someone else could do a better job with this team. I’ve always loved/hated D. Duncan, because he is without a doubt one of the most effective pitching coaches of all time, but have always thought his pitch to groundball philosophy was a bit too stodgy and unadaptable, as a few have mentioned. But overall, they could be much much worse (and the team wouldn’t be a contender this year without them methinks). Just think how many times the pitcher in the 8th spot has produced a game making rbi so far…

I thought you were a bit hard on the catcher spot, Yadier Molina can stop more than a few runs just by blocking the ball from a wild pitch, he handles the pitchers well and seems to keep their head in the game, and can both throw out runners and pick people off with ease. His hitting seems to be slowly improving every year. Can’t think of many or even a few catchers better than him. Obviously LaRue will drag down this grade quite a bit though with his non-hitting.

Also, the middle infield has been pretty solid so far, if lacking in offense. Hopefully this will relieved by continued improvement by Kennedy, more playing time for Brendan Ryan, or some sort of trade…

The bullpen though, lately, has been truly horrifying. And the starting pitching seems as if it could go south at any time. I expect this to be an evolving cast year long.

Albert is Abert Pujols, a legend who is just in the middle of his career. Hopefully he’ll get a few more chances to hit and chill out a bit on his intermittent overanxiousness. Troy Glaus, when and if he gets his home run stroke back, will be a pleasant surprise. His defense mainly being the biggest gift from Santa this year.

All in all, very entertaining team, already a few unforgettable games so far (never forget that game where Ankiel makes both of those throws, that was classic). I think once this team gels a bit more (especially the hitting and the RISP issue, and the outfield being able to lock in), they have the potential to be pretty dangerous.

Ankiel is Jesus!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 14, 2008 2:06 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

interesting chat with Mo today at STLToday:

link

Of note: It’s not prudent to trade pitching (reyes) at this time, he expects to see Perez “get his opportunity soon”, Ank is FA after ‘09, Abbamondi and Girsch “keep tabs on” VEB and forward him excerpts, and- get this- we are prepared to go above slot to get the best player available in the draft(!)

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 14, 2008 2:34 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

did Mo do that chat on a blackberry?

He’s a very intelligent guy but his spelling was pretty awful.

boo cubs, hooray beer

by Raconteur on May 14, 2008 3:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wonder

if he was using speech recognition software as sometimes the wrong word was used, but spelled correctly

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 15, 2008 1:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So wait, which is it?

He told chatters last week that Ank was under team control for the next 5 years. Now it’s only these two?

Are you sure you aren’t confusing him with Duncan? Duncan will reach Super-2 status next year.

by Hardcore Legend on May 14, 2008 3:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't remember that

I remember in the last chat Mo saying that Ankiel was arbitration-eligible after this season.

by liam on May 14, 2008 3:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

IIRC he calls his a "five year guy"

at some point. As in, he’s been under control for five years, we got him for one more.

Maybe that’s where the confusion lies?

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on May 14, 2008 3:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Glad to see

the questions were a bit more reserved and purposeful this time.

by liam on May 14, 2008 3:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

edmonds to cubs?

noises have been made in the comment log and beyond, but why aren’t we blogging it yet? rumor has it that jimmy could be a cub after tonight’s game vs. the pads…

http://blogs.suntimes.com/cubs/2008/05/latest_on_edmonds.html

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/948313,CST-SPT-deluca14.article

by gashousegangup on May 14, 2008 3:22 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Man...I respect Towers for this

I would LOVE to see this kind of quote from Mo:

“If we would have been 21-12, we probably could have stuck with him a little longer,” Towers said. “But the way we’re playing, we had to make some changes. With him only being on a one-year contract and not being in our future plans, we felt Jody Gerut and Scott Hairston deserve an opportunity.” [emphasis mine]
Mo, can we please do the same with a couple of our “clunker” 1-year contract guys and bring up some of our potential from the minors before we fall below .500? [cough cough Middle Infield cough]

Pleeeeeease?

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on May 14, 2008 4:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who do we have in the minors that we could use in the MI?

If you were using this as an argument to drop, say, Springer, and bring in Chris Perez, I’d understand, but it’s not like Hoffpauir will really be any better than Miles, as he’s hitting .276/.333/.375 in Memphis, in contrast to miles hitting .388/.345/.315 in the majors

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 14, 2008 4:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bullpen is a better place to start.

As much as I would like to see Miles and Izz2 gone, we don’t have as big of upgrades there as Perez/Motte

by DriverZn on May 14, 2008 4:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs