fists of fury
by lboros on Apr 8, 2008 8:31 AM EDT
180 comments
Q: what’s the downside of the 5-1 start? A: last night’s game thread.
the cards’ unexpectedly good start has raised everybody’s expectations, which in turn raises the piss-n-moan factor when the team turns out to be (gasp) fallible. one loss, and here come 800 comments’ worth of knee-jerk carping about how la russa and duncan are complete idiots --- as if they had nothing at all to do with the 5-1 start. or nothing to do with putting todd wellemeyer out there. he shouldn’t even be in the rotation according to a majority of this community (myself included), but i didn’t read a single comment on last night’s thread which said "maybe tony n dave made the right call on wellemeyer." i only read how those two morons were costing the team games.
but that’s the beauty of knee-jerk carping --- you’re not obliged to use fairness or logic. or maybe i should say you get to use some bizarro alternative form of fairness / logic --- the same kind my 4- and 6-year-olds invoke when they don’t get their way. here’s a textbook example of "alternative logic": for 2 solid years, whenever la russa benched duncan against a left-handed pitcher the VEB community bellowed "la russa’s an idiot! duncan’s our second-best hitter!!" last night tony had duncan in the lineup vs a left-hander . . . . . and the community bellowed "la russa’s an idiot! duncan can’t hit lefties!!"
here’s another example: tony always gets ragged on for his blind loyalty to veteran pitchers and his distrust of youngsters; i rag on him for that all the time. well, last night tony passed over his veteran setup man (franklin) and entrusted a 9th-inning tie to a rookie; when the kid lost the game, the board started piling on la russa again. one person even wrote "f**k larussa and duncan," for which he earned some polite encouragement to familiarize himself w/ the Community Guidelines.
one passage in the Community Guidelines goes like this: "there’s a difference between making a critical point and pounding your fists on the floor. if all you have to offer is the latter, do not post." there was some worthwhile, intelligent criticism on the thread last night --- the kind of discussion that makes the community strong. it’s fair to argue that brian barton had earned a 4th consecutive start, and that his absence exacerbated the cards’ vulnerability vs left-handed pitching. i agree with that argument --- last night’s lineup did not give the cards their best chance to win. but if the argument is that the lineup caused the loss, i disagree strongly; brian barton, who has 11 big-league at-bats, ain’t the sole difference between losses and wins. not yet; not singlehandedly. if you repeat that argument a couple hundred times with ever-mounting frustration and snark, it’s not an argument at all; that’s just infantile pounding of fists on the floor. the floor sustained an awful beating last night --- on april 7th. in the cards’ second loss of the season. there are probably 75 to 85 more losses left on the schedule. if last night’s thread is the standard, there’s no way the floor can survive all year. it’s gonna cave.
i’m rarely on the game threads as they unfold; i’m usually playing with my kids, brushing their teeth, and tucking ’em in bed. i come along later and read the commentary, and i am often entertained by the sharp wit and the keen observations, but some passages make me cringe. when things don't go well for the team, the herd starts looking for a scapegoat and then mercilessly pounds away. a large chunk of the community, including many of VEB's most knowledgeable and long-standing members, avoids the game threads like the plague, and i can understand why. but i think it’s a shame.
* * * * * * * *
a few notes about the ballgame itself:
- wellemeyer’s start was easily the best of his big-league career. he completed 7 innings for the first time ever, and he induced 16 swing / misses last night while walking just one man --- dominance. i haven’t looked carefully at the pitch FX data yet, but at a glance it looks like he was getting everything over --- fastball, slider, change. both the homers came on off-speed pitches --- a changeup to berkman, a hanging slider to lee.
- troy glaus made his bones last night, eh? i wouldn’t exactly say he plowed over towles on the play at the plate, but he didn’t shy away from contact either. just as impressive, imho, was his disciplined at-bat moments earlier --- he laid off a verrrry tempting 2-strike splitter, waited out valverde for a fastball and put a decent swing on it.
- one possible reason ryan franklin didn’t pitch the bottom of the 9th: the two hitters due up, lee and tejada, both have good career numbers against him --- .280 / .333 / .520 for lee (2 hr in 25 ab), and .321 / .406 / .429 for tejada.
- and a minor-league note: mitchell boggs made an impressive debut at triple A --- 6 innings, 3 hits, 1 run (unearned). jason motte pitched 1.1 innings of relief and struck out 3 guys; so far he’s struck out half the men he has faced at the triple A level, while allowing just 2 baserunners. might not be too long before we see him in st louis . . . . .
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Wow Wellemeyer
Wellemeyer's control last night was fantastic. He gave us a tremendous start. LB noted the strikeout-to-walk ratio, which is reflective of his tremendous strike-to-ball ratio. 60 strikes to 27 balls is slightly over 2-to-1. He looked great and every bit deserving of a slot in the starting rotation. Should he continue with this level of control, he will be another scrap heap notch on Walt & LaDunc's belts.
by bgh on Apr 8, 2008 8:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Was that the difference last night?
He simply had better control than usual?
I wonder why. I mean, 7 innings. WOW!
by sdrone on Apr 8, 2008 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitch Counts
Control is the issue. Fewer balls means fewer pitches, which means more effective innings.
In his first start, he threw 95 pitches in 5 innings.
Last night he threw 87 pitches in 7 innings.
by bgh on Apr 8, 2008 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't get the chance to watch last night
but I wonder if Houston was hacking. Wellemeyer has never exhibited control of his pitches but if this is some change in true talent level it would be a) completely unexpected and b) a real boost for the rotation.
by azruavatar on Apr 8, 2008 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good pitches
Welle was keeping the ball down very well as well as changing speeds. I would not say Houston was hacking. Welle just has something where his ball seems to have some late life because he always has been able to strike people out even throwing 92 MPH. I think his ball must jump a bit late on hitters. He was throwing the ball up in the zone past guys as well. He was just pitching very well and hitting his spots.
by ICbirdfan on Apr 8, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was obviously the nosebleed that kept
Welley focused. Can we designate one guy to punch Welley before every start?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Apr 8, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
First game I've watched this year
They were hacking a little but I think Wellemeyer had something to do with it. Seemed to me he was getting ahead of the hitters then getting them to chase pitches out of the zone.
Great game to watch, even if heartbreaking in the end. I love pitchers duels.
My God, Wellemeyer and pitchers duel, never thought I post that this year.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Apr 8, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the only person i noticed hacking for houston
was Hunter Pence
...just a bit outside....
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Apr 8, 2008 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Groundball outs:Flyball outs
Welle retired 11 'Stros via groundballs to 3 via the aerial batted ball.
Anyone have the first pitch strike data?
by bgh on Apr 8, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Found it
STL P-D has it at 16 first pitch strikes out of the 25 batters he faced.
by bgh on Apr 8, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like K Mac but
I get this sinking feeling that since Memphis really isn't full in their rotation, they have a few journey men filling in though, that once a rehabbing pitcher comes up K Mac may get sent to AA or AAA as a starter, with some big league experience under his belt. I was thinking that Todd W would be the first starter out but now I am not sure. Many this has become a tough competition between Thompson and Welley.
Even Tony is waiting on tonights game to decide if Pineiro will come back on Sunday or 5 days after that. All depending on how Thompson does. If he craps out, then he gets replaced if he pitches well then we get one more week of the Thompson/Welley competition.
by StLHugo on Apr 8, 2008 8:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thompson makes more sense in the bullpen
And it kind of looked like his sinker was back his last start.
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on Apr 8, 2008 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looking back on the game
The only three things you can really complain about with LaRussa last night:
1. That Kelvin Jiménez was even on the major league roster.
2. The double switch pulling Barton out and instead batting Skip.
3. Having César Izturis lead off.
Other than that, the loss falls on the players. Wellemeyer pitched a great game. If the offense can't score more than 3 runs, then everything else dosen't matter much.
LaRussa needs to figure out what he has with players like Duncan, McClellan, and Barton. His use of the first two attempted to answer that question. His use of the third did not, which is a shame.
by JMedwick on Apr 8, 2008 9:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
1.I still have no idea why Jimenez is here. What is it that he looks like he might do well?
2.The double switch really bugs me. What did Tony learn from doing that? Nothing? Usually Tony uses April to learn about the team. That would have been a perfect time to let Barton hit. Brocail has reverse splits lifetime and bla, bla. The small advantage that is assumed is outweighed by the cost of not having an extra outfielder for later, which turned out to be true.
3. Izturis is just funny. tony said he put Izturis there because he was swinging a good bat vs. LHP. Isn't the same true of Barton?
by Harknights on Apr 8, 2008 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a fourth item
4. I would have to blame TLR for stating the reason Barton didn't start was that he was unfamiliar with Houston's tricky left field and he wanted him to shag a few balls there. Then what possible reason could you have for putting Uncle Rico out there with the game on the line? Didn't really make a difference, but just completely inconsistent. I know he will never come out and say it, but I wish he would just admit that he likes Duncan and Schumaker better because they are more familiar, or whatever his inscrutable logic is.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Apr 8, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not a fan of Izturis' either
but it's time we started giving him credit for his patience at the plate. He's walked 6 times in 7 games so far this year. It's early, but it's a good start and, even though he's not hitting, if he walks frequently he can help us offensively.
by chuckb on Apr 8, 2008 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not saying he should not start
Simply that he should not be a leadoff hitter.
That said, Tony might have been right to "test" Cesar and see if he can handle the leadoff spot. Better to find out such info now than in June or July.
by JMedwick on Apr 8, 2008 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Credit where credit due
He's also driving the ball pretty well—much better than I'd expected to see from him when he was signed. He had a pretty well-hit line drive last night that was fielded routinely by Pence. He's a much more impressive player than advertised... Another benefit of low expectations.
by liam on Apr 8, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
I saw that line in the stat column last night and was shocked. He now has as many BB's in 26 PA's with the cardinals as he had in 130 PA's with the Pirates last year- that is an impressive adjustment. If he keeps taking pitches like that a lot of my criticism of the deal will go away.
It would be nice to see a slugging percentage over .300, though...
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 8, 2008 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
double switch
batting barton there lets you pinch run for dunc with skip later as well. that lets skip replace dunc definsively as well.
i really wish it would have unfolded that way. it might not have made a difference but i would have like to see if skip or barton could have beat that throw to second.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
by FutureMan on Apr 8, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there's a difference between starting Duncan agqainst a lefty and
starting him against a lefty when he's returning from an injury, especially when there's viable alternatives. Give him a chance to get back into the swing of things before giving him a tough assignment.
by outraged on Apr 8, 2008 9:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In the pregame show
Tony told Shannon that the decision had to do with Duncan's record in Houston. He had great numbers in that joke of a park comming into the game.
by Evilfrog on Apr 8, 2008 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I cringe when I read the reasoning behind some of Tony's decisions
He's a good manager but small sample sizes seem to be one of his greatest foibles.
by azruavatar on Apr 8, 2008 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony manages the psychology, not the numbers
For all the emphasis that has been put on TLR and his use of statistics, I think he uses them much differently than an analyst would. I don't think he looked at Duncan's stats at Houston and compared them against that statistics of all of his other available options, and then made an educated inference that Duncan would give his team the best chance to win. That would be "analysis," and a flawed analysis at that given its small sample size, as you say.
What La Russa is looking for is comfort level, an appropriate emotional button to push. He's got a slugger who up until July of last year was perhaps this team's second-best hitter, sitting on the bench with the rest of the team skyrocketing past him out onto the field and generating a hot start. He feels he's going to need to get Duncan going as well. So he looks at Dunc's splits in Houston and uses it to justify to himself, and the clubhouse if necessary, a move that he already wanted to make.
In so doing, he gives off the appearance in the clubhouse that he isn't playing favorites, he's playing percentages. This is how he gets his bench guys 300 ABs per year, and keeps them all happy. At the same time, this is how he motivates the guys who are getting benched -- that it isn't personal, and they'll earn their PT through playing the game right.
We often forget that a baseball manager's first job is managing men. Balancing the needs and motivations of 25 men while getting the most out of them in game-breaking situations. He's got a lot of wildcards in this lineup and I think he's been pretty effective in integrating each of them in different situations, seeing how they'll react.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
by taiko on Apr 8, 2008 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
very well stated taiko
they're people, not Strat-o-Matic cards.
by lboros on Apr 8, 2008 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen. This is the element that we have
to keep in mind as we fantasy-manage the team, w/o having to look guys in the eye, keep the spirits of 25 guys upbeat, and keep them motivated all year.
We have often seen managers who "lose their clubhouse" after a few years. And TLR, despite his seemingly odd habits and decision-making, has managed to stick around a long time w/o having that problem very often. So he appears to know something about managing flesh and blood.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Apr 8, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't say that about 2007, though
I think TLR did lose the clubhouse last year. And early.
The good news is that he hasn't lost his skills in player/person management, he just lost a few individual relationships - with Rolen in particular, and Edmonds probably got worn out from the constant sniping that La Russa delivers through the press. He still hasn't come to Jesus with Anthony Reyes yet, I don't believe, but it seems that he has the other 24 guys going gangbusters for him right now.
I can understand now La Russa's seemingly incongruous early spring comments that "this is the kind of team he likes," or something to that effect. Perhaps he needed fresh blood in the clubhouse as much as the fans did.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
by taiko on Apr 8, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he manages the psychology and the numbers
Good post, taiko.
I think it's both psychology and numbers.
One thing about Tony is that when he does something that causes some to scratch their heads, he generally has a good reason.
For example, he didn't want to start Barton last night because MMP is funky, and Barton is coming from AA, AND it's opening night for Houston. So if Barton is out, it's either Skip or Duncan, and although Duncan hasn't done well against lefties, the choice of Duncan is reasonable. And there is the issue as mentioned that people complain when he doesn't face lefties and they complain when he faces lefties.
Second, there was muttering about Izturis leading off. First of all, going into last night's game Izturis had a .455 OBP, so it's not like he's been completely worthless offensively. Also, if he didn't bat first, he would have batted ninth, so the grand difference in the game is the first AB of the game. Yes, I wouldn't want to see Izturis for the year in leadoff, but for one game, it's pretty meaningless (the other choice was to flip Miles and Izturis, and people would have complained about Miles leading off too).
Third, people moaning about using McClellan. People complain that TLR doesn't use rookies (inaccurately, but they complain), and then complain when he uses rookies.
Tony's lasted 30 years in a dog-eat-dog business of managing 25 independent contractors. You don't last that long without having a pretty good idea of what you are doing.
I read Larry Dierker's autobiography and he wrote that he went with the percentages but when it was a 50/50 decision he would do what he thought the players would want to do. I imagine a lot of good managers do things that way.
As to the later comment, I don't think TLR necessarily "lost the clubhouse" last year but it's pretty clear it wasn't a happy clubhouse, for whatever reason. I think the team got the message and played hard, which is what as a fan I care about (unfortunately, all too often the starting pitching was sub-par and the chances to win regularly were minimized).
Dave
by SydneyDave on Apr 8, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love how TLR manages his bench
givng everyone a chance to prove themself. Look how bench players show up continually for him! Who could ever forget Taguchi's homerun off Wagner in the NLCS or Spezio's great clutch hitting...Vintage TLR. As great as Whitey was as a manager...this is the12th year with TLR right? ....and he gets hard hustle in April. I was just watching the Yankees and Rays this weekend and it looked like they were playing in slow motion for most of the game compared to the Cardinals...hardly anyone was running out ground balls.
mattnj
by mattnj on Apr 8, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree with your comments,
but isn't this TLR's 13th season as the Cards manager?
by cardsgirl95 on Apr 8, 2008 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's why I put a ? mark..
Being his 13th year just makes it that more impressive. Thanks for the note
mattnj
by mattnj on Apr 8, 2008 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent insight into LaRussa's management psychology, taiko
I'll add my kudos to the others for your analysis. As a consulting psychologist it has been my experience that management in any field is not just about the numbers. I agree LaRussa is very good at managing the motivation, morale, and focus of his teams.
He does seem to have some gaps in his strategy and skills, though, like any manager. He, like his players, is human, of course. His behavior toward Rolen, for example, showed part of LaRussa's hubris, his combative, intense, overly personal competitiveness. It wasn't the first time he had mishandled communication and other aspects of relationship management with a player.
Part of LaRussa's very effective approach to getting the most from his players is what sports psychologists call "positive mental imagery", that is, envisioning the best performance one can achieve and how beneficial the outcome would be for that performance. Before the 2006 playoffs he spoke about how his club was "dangerous" and the players seemed to get a lift from that, going into the postseason with confidence and courage and determination to play a hard nine, despite having just come off a miserable, discouraging September. This year LaRussa is talking about how his team will sneak up on a lot of people and surprise them. When you see the energy and focus of the team this first seven games, it seems evident that LaRussa has succeeded in harnessing his team's motivation to support their best performance. When many were disdaining Izturis, LaRussa was building him up, and now Izturis is playing very well in the field and showing very good discipline at the plate. Likewise, LaRussa has given very positive encouragement to McClellan, Barton and Washington, and even Anthony Reyes lately, once the decision was made to keep him on the roster. Those who criticize LaRussa's ability to handle rookies and younger players might reconsider their views.
The bottom line is that LaRussa does seem to get the best from almost all of his players. Now if he could just do that with us fans on those occasions, like last night's game, when the team shows its natural fallibility, as Larry so aptly admonishes us to remember.....
by CardsWin on Apr 8, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the further insight
That's a really good observation about his early season statements, and how he uses his statements to (and through) the press to help set the tone for his team.
Just to touch on 2007 for a moment, I might have overreached by saying that he lost the clubhouse entirely. But, perhaps it would be better to say that he lost his relationship with the local media, first because of his own DUI, then the Josh Hancock scandal, then the treatment of the Pujols-Mitchell report rumors. He became really combatative and lost that channel to help deliver that positive mental imagery for the team.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
by taiko on Apr 8, 2008 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the kind of discussion ...
that makes this site entertaining. Void of the irrational anger from last night.
I would like to preface that I'm not particularly fond of many of the on-field managing decisions Mr. LaRussa makes. That being said, I have to agree with many of your points about how he handles team members. As you pointed out, I believe Mr. LaRussa looks at Mr. Duncan and Mr. Schumaker scuffling right now; and he realizes that the team is better positioned to win games with ALL of his players playing at least to their potential. I know many people have so eloquently discussed how these guys are sacks of crap, but they are 40% of this team's OF. I think it is also important to notice that perhaps sitting Mr. Barton in a game that he might struggle in defensively could be rough on his confidence, and as SydneyDave pointed out, this guy was in AA last year. In addition, being a Rule 5 guy, they can't afford for him to undergo an extensive slump. They can't just send him down when he needs more seasoning.
I just wanted to ask a quick question of the group in response to the "losing the team in 2007" comments. Do you think that perhaps the mental drain of losing Hancock, along with several veterans facing their own baseball mortality (Mr. Edmonds, Mr. Rolen, Mr. Eckstein, Mr. Encarnacion, etc.), and also including the onslaught of injuries to several key players simply wore that team down mentally? I'm not sure that Mr. LaRussa really "lost the team;" although I agree with the point that he lost some credibility with the media, the fan-base, and the players with the several personal issues that arose. I think you might have seen an old team that simply had become bitter/cynical over the course of time together. Just curious.
by etp_stl on Apr 8, 2008 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lboros,
Thank you again for offering consistent objective commentary. Fans also forget that we aren't privy to all the information. TLR and Duncan likely have to make several decisions a night based on information they only have access to. This isn't that say we should have blind loyalty to them, there is a place for constructive, well-researched and objective criticism, but I rarely find it on the game threads.
by maurerdj on Apr 8, 2008 9:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Also Wellemeyer looked very good last night. I still don't think he can be a league average starter for a season, but he seems that he has the potential to fit the swingman role better than Brad Thompson.
by maurerdj on Apr 8, 2008 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brad Thompson
to me is a capable 5th (maybe even 4th) starter, but I also think if you have other options, he might be more valuable in the pen.
by ridgesee on Apr 8, 2008 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wellemeyer
plainly has a major league stuff and last night he controlled it. He made only one mistake a flat slider to Carlos Lee. The pitch to Berkman wasn't a bad pitch, Berkman just went out and got it. With control, welle is better than league average.
by ridgesee on Apr 8, 2008 9:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What I liked about that was.
After giving up back to back home runs he comes back and strikes the next guy out. And then finishing the inning. Thats what he was missing as a started. After giving up the runs before he wasnt going into. "Ok, they got to me, now I have to get through this inning and get my guys a chance." mode.
by Evilfrog on Apr 8, 2008 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
I tend to stay away from the during-game threads--I'm too jazzed during the games to comment rationally, and I get too angry at some of the other posters. I thought that was a well-played game--Welly especially--but it just got away from them there at the end. It happens. Disappointing for sure, but that's baseball. Tonight's another night. Go get em boys!!
by rockin redbird on Apr 8, 2008 9:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
winning the game vs. winning the season
I think game threads get too focused on winning the game sometimes and not the larger picture. I've had these fights before on game threads when people complain because some stinking player gets put in during close situations.
Biggest example from last night is Ludwick. The man stunk in his first 3 ABs with 3 Ks, the last one taking all three strikes. Many, including me, did not have much love for him after that. Tony instead keeps him in let's him hit in the ninth so Ludwick can redeem himself and he ties it. Ultimately, such a terrible night is erased for Ludwick and he's on much better footing for the week ahead. TLR's decision shows a deal of confidence to Ludwick which pays off far greater than managing just to win an April game.
Of course, some of those decisions don't pay off. Skip is 0 for whatever, but Tony took a chance by putting him in to PH, if Skip got a hit that gives him a huge boost of confidence in the weeks ahead. He didn't, but it didn't put him in a worse place than he was before. Instead, it shows Skip that Tony's still thinking he has it.
you can't sneak the sun past the rooster
by enoscountry on Apr 8, 2008 9:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Forest but for the trees
Great point. Last night was 1/162 of a season, or, .6173% of a season.
by bgh on Apr 8, 2008 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
boggs...another nifty stat
15 groundball outs
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle."
by erik on Apr 8, 2008 9:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I saw him pitch in ST
He looked truly sinister. Planning on making it down to Memphis for a few games this year, hopefully he'll start one of 'em.
by liam on Apr 8, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
800 comments
Seems to be more than usual...has the traffic increased since the SB switch?
by silent_bob on Apr 8, 2008 9:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Instant updating
It is much easier to follow and comment with instant updating. So even if the traffic didn't increase that could easily explain the increase in comments.
by StLHugo on Apr 8, 2008 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lineup
I hear the frustration and the reasonable perspective on whether to scapegoat LaDuncan for last night's loss. Regardless of outcome though, I wonder about Larussa's constant lineup tinkering. I know he's been doing this for forever so in some sense it's fruitless to complain, but the downside to him playing matchups is consistency and comfort in the lineup. Maybe you guys can diabuse me of this hunch, but yesterday (before the game), I suggested to a friend that it would be good for Larussa to "lock in" the lineup below. Thoughts?
Barton/Schumaker
Ankiel
Pujols
Glaus
Duncan/Ludwick
Molina
Kennedy
Pitcher
Izturis
From the outset, I was VERY disappointed to not see Barton leading off. It's tough to swallow, but I agree with LBoros that you have to like LaDunc pitching the rookie (though I HATE NOT using your closer in those situations generally, but realize that Larussa NEVER does that), or you at least can't complain that a veteran should be in there if you dislike Larussa's penchant for relying on vets.
by DesiBird on Apr 8, 2008 9:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
TLR led MLB last year in lineups
The Cards had 150 different lineups in 162 games.
by bgh on Apr 8, 2008 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like it.
I see a lot of people begging Ankiel to hit behind Pujols, but I suspect that Rick has been seeing good pitches (and delivering on them) because he hits in front of the man. The only change I would make would be with Righthanders, maybe
Barton
Duncan
Pujols
Ankiel
Glaus
Molina
Kennedy
Pitcher
Izturis
This puts baby-D back where he was raking last year, and plays the L-R-L-R game that Tony loves. I'd call this a stopgap until Troy finds his stroke, or Duncan shows that his run of success is over.
by tinstl on Apr 8, 2008 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only issue with that lineup
Is that it puts either Duncan or Barton in RF.
by Evilfrog on Apr 8, 2008 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't think you're ever going to see Duncan and Barton in the same lineup
TLR clearly does not trust Barton's defense, and no one trusts Duncan's. Until Barton can show that he's an above average defender, it's going to be an either/or between him and Dunc.
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on Apr 8, 2008 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
Barton's defense still looks very raw to me. I think if you give him some time to polish his defense some more. Personally I think the arm thing is over rated, I rather have a guy who can go and get it rather than a guy that has a cannon and little range.
"Textbooks are Soviet propaganda" - Rev. Jerry Falwell
by elirock83 on Apr 8, 2008 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I pretty much agree with you
and I'm not saying that Barton will always not be trusted, but, as per evilfrog's comment below, it'll take time for him to gain trust.
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on Apr 8, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony on pulling Barton
Paraphrasing here.
"Next time he'll go 7 innings. By mid season he should be in until the end of the game."
It really is just gaining the Tony's trust and learning to play defense above the double A level. Its hard because he can't get sent down to for a few weeks at triple A.
by Evilfrog on Apr 8, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw Welley
pitch last year in Pittsburgh and he was sharp. 6ips 3h's 5k's 0BB's. I thought then the guy deserved a chance to be in this years rotation. Last night was great. I do not like the stat..."quality start" but last night was certainly one. That was a classic pitchers duel.
Why don't we give credit where credit is due. Rodrquez was great last night, and deserved the win.
by nybirdfan on Apr 8, 2008 9:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ank and other stuff.
Glaus is coming around, and I really like him right behind Pujols. Ank is tearing the cover off the ball. Why look that gift horse in the mouth?
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Apr 8, 2008 9:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I was
as vocal as anybody about my dissatisfaction with Wellemeyer being in the rotation. That being said, I owe it to the man to give him the credit when he earns it.
Hell of a start, Mr. Wellemeyer. Beautiful.
I'm still not convinced he should be in there all year long; I don't think he'll keep up this level of performance. But still. Last night, Welley was amazing.
I was very disappointed to not see Barton leading off last night; I think you ride the hot hand, particularly when he has the platoon split advantage. Of course, hot streaks can end any time, and that's when you make the change. But as long as a guy keeps doing it, don't try to anticipate, just go with it.
Really, though, I understand the reasoning. I may not agree with it, but I do understand it. The only real gripe I had with the game last night was in the ninth, after Duncan was walked. I thought, at that point, that Barton should have been pinch run for Duncan. You need all the speed you can get at that point, in order to try and beat out a throw, etc. In other words, the exact thing that happened. You have a guy with average speed at best on the basepaths in a tied game in the ninth inning, who also happens to be coming back from a hamstring injury. It just seemed to me that getting the guy with the healthy wheels on the basepaths would have been the prudent move, particularly considering they play the same position.
Otherwise, I didn't really have much to say bad about the way the game was handled. It sucked, but it wasn't a bad loss, by any means. Although, it does hurt that it was Wandy F-ing Rodriguez.
Oh well. They weren't going 161-1, so why get pissed about this one?
Que sera.
by the red baron on Apr 8, 2008 9:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well Barton was burned
is the Skip AB...but that is just another example of why the Skip AB was so bad from a tactics point of view.
by Harknights on Apr 8, 2008 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
And there were no bench OF left at all, so you couldn't even get away with binch running one of the pitchers or something, lest you end the game with Rico in the outfield.
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on Apr 8, 2008 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thoughts on last night.
Overzealous fans = small price to pay for overachieving team.
I floorbang verbally during the games..... I thought the cardinals played very well last night, but Rodriguez had a fantastic curveball last night. Those two he dropped in on Pujols in the seventh. WOW.
It was sweet to hang 3 on Valverde last night. I think he reminds me too much of Zambrano. Yes sir, I don't like him. I wish we would have won the game but the birds showed grit last night in the 9th. Pujols just missed that tying home run, but Glaus and Ludwick picked him up.
One bad pitch by a rookie brings down the loss. Kid is forgiven.
Here's the deal, I'm the best there is, plain and simple, I mean I wake up every morning and I kiss excellence, and nobody can hang with my stuff, uh, you know I'm just a, just a big hairy American winning machine.....
by Schnake on Apr 8, 2008 9:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
One more thing
Ankiel did his best Edmonds impersonation in the 9th swinging through 3 high fastballs. Is this on the personality test for Redbird centerfielders?
Interviewer: so what are your feelings on high fastballs?
Rasmus: I tend to lay off them... you know wait for my pitch!
Interviewer ( to management): Kid is made for right field.
Here's the deal, I'm the best there is, plain and simple, I mean I wake up every morning and I kiss excellence, and nobody can hang with my stuff, uh, you know I'm just a, just a big hairy American winning machine.....
by Schnake on Apr 8, 2008 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree on Valverde
I didn't follow the game thread last night so I can see how eight innings of scoreless baseball will give people a lot of fodder to gripe. But in hindsight a 3-run ninth off their newly-acquired closer is almost a victory unto itself. I believe Valverde is a bit of a pinata, and with a bit of poking he'll fall apart. We did a nice job of that last night. He also won't like his new ballpark much, especially given his flyball rates.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
by taiko on Apr 8, 2008 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Think you
may be right about Valverde. That is a great analogy though - he is like a pinata, poke him with a stick and he goes to pieces.
by cardsgirl95 on Apr 8, 2008 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
valverde
i liked his little pout after they scored the first run. He just started moping around out there you could see it in his face. If he just would have let it go he probably would have gotten the save but he couldn't. Houston will be missing lidge before the end of may
"Textbooks are Soviet propaganda" - Rev. Jerry Falwell
by elirock83 on Apr 8, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lb
thanks for the mentioning the game thread. i doubt the vitriol will change much, but perhaps folks will think twice before posting. your level-headed reinforcement of guidelines far outweighs any reactionary sarcasm that i was very tempted to throw down.
I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.
by _pistol_ on Apr 8, 2008 10:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In Defense of the Gripers
Yeah, there was a lot of bellyaching going on last night, but in defense of the crabbers, that was an extremely poor line up that Tony trotted out there.
Unfortunately, this legitimate complaint snowballed, group-think took over, and the thread devolved into a mass exercise in crabbing.
Bottomline: It's tough to beat the home team on opening day.
Second bottomline: Tony La Russa and conventional wisdom--never the twain shall meet.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on Apr 8, 2008 10:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
there's nothing wrong w/ intelligently complaining
about the lineup or anything else. Some of us were criticized last week for, ironically, being too negative when we intelligently criticize the team. The stuff that doesn't help is the "F-Duncan, I hope he gets run over by a truck!" stuff. It doesn't provide any sort of insight or even a reason why the person's so angry w/ Duncan. I, for one, didn't get why people were so pissed at him b/c he didn't beat out the throw to 2nd that Tejada made such a good play on in the 9th. There was an argument to be made that he should've been pinch-run for, and there was some discussion of that, but to criticize him for not running fast enough? I didn't read anyone complaining "That damned Yadi, If he'd only hit the ball harder we'd have scored another run!"
If you want to criticize, back it up. That's what this is for. We can't have good discussions w/o some criticism, but it should be supported w/ something other than bile!
And I'm not sure I see how the lineup was so horrible. Should Barton have started? Maybe but LB's right, we've complained for 2 years that Tony doesn't give Duncan a shot against lefties. And it's certainly not the reason we lost. I argued that Tony shouldn't have pinch-hit for Barton w/ Skip after pinch-hitting WITH Barton. He burned a player unnecessarily but I really don't think it cost us the game.
by chuckb on Apr 8, 2008 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duncan
I agree, all the unfounded screaming at Duncan was silly. However, on the force out, he missed the base! It was a point I made a couple of different times. He did a hook slide like he was trying to break up a double play, rather than sliding directly into the base. He never touched the base with his foot, and instead made contact with his midsection and hand after the force was made. It's just a dumb dumb baseball play in that situation and made the call easy for the umpire. It looked like he would have been safe if had directly slid into the base.
by Pujols Shot Ya on Apr 8, 2008 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was out anyway
and even if he wasn't the ump wouldn't have called it that way. The ball beat him there. He wasn't out b/c of his slide.
by chuckb on Apr 8, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that's a reasonable argument.
I watched the replay, and it was close, but it looked like he would have beat it. Even if the ump is predisposed to call him out on that play, you can't say what the ump would or would not have done. Even if a proper slide would have only given us a small chance of getting the call, a small chance is better than no chance.
by Pujols Shot Ya on Apr 8, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Line Up
There's a common sentiment uniting the complaints about playing Duncan last night, and not playing him against lefties for the past two year. In both instanes, fans were complaining about Tony not using the "hot" batter at the time. Currently, Duncan's cold, and Bardon's doing well. So that's why people carp against Duncan now, and it's why they carped on Duncan's behalf last year.
Second, while I agree that TLR needs to "get Duncan going," I question TLR's timing. Duncan historically has struggled against lefties, so why choose a game against a lefty to "spark" Duncan. Setting a player up to fail is not good motivational practice. Given that the Cards will face a RHP tonight, why not wait one game. Playing Duncan looks like impatience.
Regarding the line up, it's not merely the decision to bat Izturis lead off, nor the decision to play Duncan against a lefty, but the combination of these two that really rankles.
Tony was experimenting last night. And that's fine to a point. But too much experimentation at once looks reckless.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on Apr 8, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playing Duncan directly impacted the leadoff spot decision
Without Schumaker or Barton, he has to start somewhere. And Iz has been taking his walks this year. Regarding Duncan, he's a veteran player by now. Going hitless in one game is miniscule as far as "failure" is concerned. It may be more important to the clubhouse dynamic to send the message that Dunc is going to get his PT now that he's relatively healthy.
Just playing devil's advocate here.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
by taiko on Apr 8, 2008 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ludwick
Even if you decide you must play Duncan against the lefty, you can still bat Ludwick lead-off.
On the other hand, I'll concede here that if you follow current obp, Izturis' near .500 mark makes the lead-off decision defensible. But it's still an experiment. So play Barton and bat Izturis first. I can live with that too.
Our line up has too many holes to withstand too much experimentation. That's my point.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on Apr 8, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Need for experimentation
An opposite view, is that we need experimentation precisely because there are too many holes and we need to find out who can do what, when. Plus, this keeps players on their toes, for better or wose.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Apr 8, 2008 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
awesome user name
I loved "Rome" and Titus was the effin man
...just a bit outside....
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Apr 8, 2008 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
But I fear it was a little short sighted. Sometime in 2010, I'm sure I'll be scratching my head over it.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on Apr 8, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least "Titus Pullo" sounds cool.
"Taikonaut" was an internet blip about five years ago that caught my eye. But now... "taiko" probably sounds like a Tonka truck name or something. Oh well, it's just the internet.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
by taiko on Apr 8, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taikonauts
are what the Chinese call their astronauts, right?
"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver
by player2bnamedl8r on Apr 8, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Of course, I am neither Chinese nor an astronaut.
Acting!
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
by taiko on Apr 8, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From here...
you appeared Chinese. =)
Let me jump on the train and say that was a terrific post this morning as well. I was actually thinking about this during the game last night, and it seems to me that for all of Tony's reputation as a guy who takes and uses a lot of data, he generally bases his decisions on instinct, or feel, or whatever you want to call it.
When he first started managing, he was the one manager who was computer savvy...and now, he seems to be almost the antithesis of that, at least to me.
Anyway, thanks for the well-thought out post. It's much appreciated.
"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver
by player2bnamedl8r on Apr 8, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matchup stats
What are everyone's thoughts on TLRs dogmatic approach to playing the pitcher/hitter matchups? Not L/R matchups, but batter vs. pitcher numbers? Lichtman (co-writer of "The Book" and ex-Card employee) recently stated that batter vs. pitcher numbers have absolutely no predictive value, I assume because of sample size issues.
Maybe it's a good way to dole out playing time for everyone without upsetting people... but as a strategy to win baseball games, i dunno.
by Pujols Shot Ya on Apr 8, 2008 10:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sample Size
I agree with folks' complaints about sample size. But sample size is not the only issue. Sometimes it's a trade off between the sample size and controlling for other factors. If a player has had significant major league time, one is able to obtain a big sample size by aggregating data. But aggregation means that different factors are averaged together. I think sometimes it's a tought call between very specific information between a pitcher and a hitter versus using aggregated data of a particular hitter across multiple pitchers. Sure the two types of stat can confirm each other but what if they differ? One has to pick one or the other, right?
I'll add in my thanks to Lboros for trying to lessen the vitriol vs. LaDunc. For better or for worse, we are stuck with them, Mo, Dewallet, Iz2, ... LaDunc is trying to built up a team for 162 by giving opportunities to different players in different situations. I think players (well most players) play hard for TLR because they know he doesn't give up on them easily. We just don't have a financial luxury to discard players and then go hire a FA mercenary.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Apr 8, 2008 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sample size conundrum
I dunno...
My first response to such matchups is to roll my eyes due to the miniscule sample size and statistical irrelevance.
HOWEVER, even I find myself eagerly looking forward to watching Albert bat against Odalis Perez.
Obviously, there's a disconnect there. There are clearly going to be times (and particular matchups, apparently) when the matchup history does represent a fairly realistic expectation. But is it just random chance supporting my bias, or an emerging trend? Apparently Tony sees more predictive value in smaller datasets than most of us do.
But no matter how you slice it, a lot of us chastise Tony for his little index cards with (what we assume) are statistically insignificant matchup numbers...after which we then immediately proceed to wax poetic on how Pujols ownz Odalis Perez.
Go figure.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
by Mr Clean on Apr 8, 2008 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One matchup split that I'd be really interested in
That isn't affected by sample size issues would be:
stats vs. fastball pitchers, junkballers, etc. A batter would have to be better/worse against guys who threw a particular type of stuff, ya?
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on Apr 8, 2008 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've seen pitch FX data breaking that stuff down for hitters
but I can't remember where. . .
found it -- Josh Kalk's site
by azruavatar on Apr 8, 2008 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LB
I appreciate you getting on the game thread last night. I enjoy being on the game thread once and a while during the game but it does get out of control at times. Last night was absolutely ridiculos. I have been saying for a couple years that TLR needs to just put Dunc in against LHP and see what he has. I would like to see Dunc pile up 400 AB's against LHP before I say he can't hit them.
It seems on this board some people have pre-determined they hate TLR, D. Duncan, C. Duncan, Izturis, Miles, Welle, and Thompson for some reason.
by ICbirdfan on Apr 8, 2008 10:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Everyone always seems to have their Cardinal scapegoat
that they can yell at when the team does badly, so that they don't particularly hate the team, but cna just blame things on the scapegoat. And they don't have Juan Encarnación to push around anymore.
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on Apr 8, 2008 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my biggest problem with VEB
Here is my #1 biggest problem with VEB.
PEOPLE WHO CANT LET THINGS GO/ADMIT WHEN A GUY THEY HATE PLAYS WELL.
I am not a real big fan of Anthony Reyes, but it does not mean I cheer against him or drop F-Bombs about him when he does poorly. I also am very quick to get on here and say "Great Job Anthony" when he does well either. I do enjoy seeing Anthony prove me wrong.
I don' t think a lot of people follow my lead. For example Aaron Miles, Welle, Izturis all had key plays last night yet I did not see many people praise them. I know they are hated by many, but throw them a bone when they do well. I am sick of seeing such constant negativity about guys.
by ICbirdfan on Apr 8, 2008 10:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I agree.
However, I think you'll find, as lb said, a difference between game thread commenters and post-game commenters. It's a lot easier to be cool-headed and give praise where it's due, or reasoned criticism, after the emotion has died down.
While you're on the "let things go" soapbox, you might cut a few of those guys some slack as well. One of the things I really enjoy about this board is how relatively un-policed it is, and yet how civil the overall tone of discussion is. I feel like I'm reading an honest slice of Cards nation. Sometimes that honesty bleeds through into irrational ranting, but you don't see "trolling" here - an artificial argument that I think is relatively unique to the internet and not a function of people's true thoughts.
And now I'm rambling. Sorry.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
by taiko on Apr 8, 2008 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said, LB
I see nothing wrong in last night's loss. As the success of VEB and the Cardinals continue, you're going to have those new folks who need to get assimilated into the culture. Happens.
Hey, I'm guility of beng a prick on here too - I think a lot of people are from time to time.
My only issue with last night was why not pinch run for Dunc? He got a defensive replacement in the bottom of the inning. Oh well.
Good game though.
"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.
by bukowski on Apr 8, 2008 11:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Welle
did a great job last night. 7 K to 1 BB over seven innings, who would have predicted that?
Another item that I find encouraging - 28 RS to 18 RA. We haven't been shut-out or blown-out yet. Two losses, one by one run and the other by two runs. A solid start and a much better place to be than where we were last year at this time.
by cardsgirl95 on Apr 8, 2008 11:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mr. Molina
Being a Molina fan, I want to make sure what he is doing isnt getting over looked. He has a 6 game hit streak goin and made sure Berkman respected his arm down there at first, despite allowing the two stolen bases. Nice work Mr. Molina.
by brindled on Apr 8, 2008 11:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Also, I saw Michael Bourn's 2 SBs off Molina in the box score and thought to myself -- wow, this guy must have A+ speed. The game within the game between those two will be fun to watch this season.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
by taiko on Apr 8, 2008 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
His speed was amazing...I think he may be a little faster than Barton
by brindled on Apr 8, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bourn is faster than anyone in the league outside of Carlos Gomez...
in my opinion.
...just a bit outside....
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Apr 8, 2008 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welle & Jimenez
Have C- baserunner holding skills.
Both stolen bases seemed to be huge jumps on the pitcher.
by RedbirdRay on Apr 8, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One of Bourn's steals
was off Jiminez; Yadi didn't even attempt a throw. Bourn got a good jump against Wellemeyer and Yadi's throw tailed on him a bit. You're right, though... the kid can freakin' fly...
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on Apr 8, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barton didn't start
because TLR wanted him to have more than one pre-game "shag" session in that cluster(bleep) LF in Houston. (Sorry, forget where I saw that... might have been Bird Land.) Makes sense to me; why put the rook in a situation that doesn't lend itself to success?
The Barton/Skip switch was standard RH/LH advantage; you can argue that move either way, but it's a bit of a nit-pick.
With a righthander (Shawn Chacon) on the mound tonight, I bet we'll see Skip leading off and playing RF with either Duncan or Ankiel in the 2-hole.
Lord, I hate Enron Field...
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on Apr 8, 2008 11:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll echo that
The Juice Box has to be the worst park in baseball. I wish someone would derail that stupid train.
They had the roof open for the opening ceremonies with the skydivers coming down then close it at game time, WHY!!!! I'm a couple of hours north of Houston but it was really nice last night. No rain mid 70's. What, did the Secret Service tell them to do it because of George and Barb?
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Apr 8, 2008 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Open/Close atmosphere
I have been to a LOT of Astros games being that I live about 30 mins. from MM Park, and to me, it seems that the atmosphere is different with the roof closed. The "fans" seem to be more alive with the roof closed. I'm not sure why exactly. My susupicion though, is the air quality that surround Houston. It leaves a LOT to be desired. It may be, "the worst park in baseball", but you wont find a bad seat in the place.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Apr 8, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh
I only have been to one game there, but the roof was closed and the atmosphere felt really dank and depressing. Whatever benefits there might have been from running the weak AC, I think were lost in terms of the feel for the game.
It wasn't exactly a playoff atmosphere, though. I could see how a noisy crowd could have made a big difference.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
by taiko on Apr 8, 2008 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That place is absurd with the roof closed and the crowd pumped
That crowd has made my ears ring before with the roof closed.
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on Apr 8, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I was at a game with the roof closed; Cards/Stros
Top nine, Cards down by two, runners 1 and 2, The Mang up. Lidge on the mound.
Strike one: looking... place is busting at the seems
Strike two: foul ball... even more excitement
Strike three: swinging... my goodness, I could hadly hear myself say to my buddy (stros fan), good game.
It is a distinct difference with the roof closed, as opposed to open. Go to a game there when they are playing a rival and have won a couple recently.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Apr 8, 2008 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've never been
Plan on doing so soon. My brother lives in Houston and been to a few games there. He says the same thing, not a bad seat in the house. Well, I guess maybe sitting on that stupid train would be a bad seat.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Apr 8, 2008 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It really is a very good place to see a game
And the other fans are qire respectful, at least under normal circumstances. Though it seemed like the place was taken over by Cardinals fans last time I went.
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on Apr 8, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to check out the park
Last year I went to Houston for a wedding, and the Astros came to St Louis.
The same summer I went to Chicago to take the Bar Exam, and the Cubs went to St Louis.
Baseball gods were not smiling on me.
by mwinf12 on Apr 8, 2008 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate MM too
Everytime I see a home run go into the Crawford Boxes or see one sneek over the short porch in right all I can think of is circus music. I am still waiting for the day when all the umpires pile out of some impossibly small car or they install a moat in centerfield. The whole "ballpark" is a collection of gimmicks.
by indakind on Apr 8, 2008 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lee
I like the fat Carlos Lee in LF! Berkman aint too far behind him according to the artists rendition.
Nice work Alxfritz!
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Apr 8, 2008 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome rendition
I am sure that Drayton McClane is pondering whether to add the ferris wheel at the All-Star break this year or in the offseason.
by indakind on Apr 8, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duncan's slide
I didn't get to watch the game last night, but I saw some of the highlights on Sportscenter. One possibility that I don't think I've read on here is that maybe Duncan took a wide path to the base anticipating the ball getting through and going first to third on the single. When he saw that Tejada made the play, he either a) was too shocked to make a good slide (or whatever, he's a pro ballplayer, this one is probably bogus) or b) didn't have a good angle to get back to slide.
Could be completely wrong here, just a couple of thoughts.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on Apr 8, 2008 11:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
that is a good point
pretty much explains it.
As good sportsmen we really should be giving credit to Tejada rather than piling on Duncan, anyway...
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 8, 2008 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Little off topic Mr. Redbird...
Lived in Auburn for a few years.... Loved the town, especially on gamedays. Will definitely check out your Auburn blog & War Eagle!
by Merry CRasmus on Apr 8, 2008 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
for acknowledging last night's game thread. I was really disappointed that I was viewed as the "bad guy" for calling out overly negative posters.
I live in Chicagoland and get enough of that BS here. VEB is my sanctuary, but lately I hate what it becomes during gametime.
Ok Skippy... you're starting. Now START HITTING!
by stltrav09 on Apr 8, 2008 11:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I overreacted a bit on the game thread last night
but I still do not find Chris Duncan to be a good ballplayer at all. I'd love for him to prove me wrong, but ever since his hot start last year, he has crashed down to earth hard.
I really hope Kyle McClellan isn't shellshocked after last night, I still think he's a good pitcher and don't want one bad night turning him into Brad Lidge
...just a bit outside....
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Apr 8, 2008 11:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh and the National Title game last night
was about as frustrating as the Cardinals game. Damn you Memphis and your inability to hit free throws, damn you!
...just a bit outside....
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Apr 8, 2008 12:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
NCAA
I was just glad to see two midwest teams fighting it out for the championship...no ACC, SEC, Big East, or Pac-10 teams makes me happy! Take that Dickie V!!!!
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Apr 8, 2008 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Memphis
fans might be a little pissed calling them Midwest. It's definitely a southern town. I hear you though, nice to see some fresh blood
by eglasier on Apr 8, 2008 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Memphis is more midwest than, say, Atlanta or Birmingham, but it's still definitely a southern town. It's a pretty cool place, though.
It has always been huge Cardinals country, but I was very depressed to see some of my young cousins from there wearing Braves stuff. I've been told that the Braves have made inroads among the fans since the 90s. I'd still call it a Cardinal town, though.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on Apr 8, 2008 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welly actually threw some decent offspeed pitches.
Where did they come from? I think he pitched very well last night (obv) against what I believe to be one of the better lineups in the national league (although Pence is totally lost out there ATM).
I was pretty angry Duncan was in the lineup last night. I won't blame the loss on that decision because it's not like anyone else was getting to Wandy, but I wonder how many games we'll be cost by decisions like that over the course of the season. I'll give Wandy and the Astros some credit, but the fact remains that we weren't didn't put out the lineup with the best chance to win.
I think I'll have to get over it though because I have to accept the fact that LaRussa thinks Duncan is more than a platoon player and I don't. I also think that for what Duncan is, we have a better Duncan in Ludwick. He's an RBI machine who can't really hit lefties too well also. he also plays (much) better D.
by TheBirds on Apr 8, 2008 12:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I said a couple days ago at the end of the game thread
http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2008/4/5/389860/overflow-game-thread#
That I thought the tenor of the game threads had changed. They were almost 'too optimistic' and I was afraid that when this team hit a snag, the fallout would be brutal.
Last night was a pretty good example of that.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 8, 2008 12:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i'm glad i stayed away last night
sounds like i didn't miss anything but a bunch of garbage. this place is not a garbage dump. we aren't flub or red sox fans. we are Cardinals fans. start acting like it people. this team is going to break our hearts & give us unspeakable joy all season long. get used to it. there will be bad games, and there will be amazing games. don't overreact one way or another.
it's freaking April 8th. they've played 7 games. chill out.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson
by gdm426 on Apr 8, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what about the pen?
If Jimenez is ???, why keep him? I know he'll move to Memphis when Pineiro returns? Is Thompson leaving the rotation then?
I think AReyes is always the better option than Jimenez.
by gocards62 on Apr 8, 2008 12:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Enjoy the pre & post game comments & analysis
But for the game thread, what the heck does anyone care about how your 'fantasy' baseball team fared, e.g. 'well we lost, but at least I had Miguel Tejada on my fantasy team'. Have fun with it privately by all means, but it is utterly superfluous to the discussion at hand.
Other mysteries remain. TL
by BKKCard on Apr 8, 2008 1:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
At least they're being optimistic.
Rasmus or bust.
by Zoop on Apr 8, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry!
In case you didn't see it in the previous thread, oops. Slip of the tongue that was meant to be lighthearted (I only get "fired up" in October on plays that make or break ball games) but due to the Internet, you couldn't tell my casual tone. While what I said should've sounded like dry humor came off with me with a torch in one hand and PCP in the other. Either way, it was still against the TOS, and I still man up to being wrong.
I *can* still make comparisons to Duncan and fast food combo meals, though, right? Because if not, I don't feel like living, let alone posting here. WE NEED JUSTICE!
Rasmus or bust.
by Zoop on Apr 8, 2008 1:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My 2 Cents worth...
What is the deal with Barton's defense, raw or not he has speed and it looks like he can hit a little bit.... Is it really all that important when he's playing? He can make an error in the first six innings as easily as he can in the last three... and error's an error, unless we're winning and you want to help insure our "great bullpen" has winning defense behind it I really think Barton should be playing the whole game until he plays his way out of it...
by redbirddude on Apr 8, 2008 1:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
For the record
I saw him fielding in BP one day and he REALLY gets to the ball in a jiffy. He even flashed the leather a couple of times for it to be simple old batting practice. I think it's a hollow excuse. From what I saw, he can't be bad. Average, maybe, but below average? I don't think his speed allows it.
Rasmus or bust.
by Zoop on Apr 8, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strauss on XM
Joe Strauss made an interesting point on XM just now.
Cardinals have a bunch of home games and a good schedule in April and May as the time when Pineiro, Mulder, and Clement get off the DL. We could perceivably have a good record and deal our starting pitching away from a strong position.
My thought is that it may be too soon (let alone wishful thinking), May isn't exactly a hot trading time. Still, we might be able to get some young talent in exchange for Looper or others.
you can't sneak the sun past the rooster
by enoscountry on Apr 8, 2008 2:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My 2 cents
Yes, last night was a frustrating loss because of the issues that so many here have already raised. But, to be honest, I'm simply not as angry, nor was I during the game, as many seem to be. And I think that's because of the fact that I simply do not have high expectations this year. Heading into the season, I'll be honest, I told myself the only time I'll expect to win is when Wainwright takes the mound. Other than that, I expect the worse (probably due to the fact that all my favorite teams, especially the Miami Dolphins and NJ Nets, have made me jaded.
If this was a critical game in August or September (or a playoff game), then yes, I'd be just as angry and frustrated as some of you seem to be. But we're 5-2 and I don't think many, if any, thought we'd be 5-2 in our first 7. And keep in mind that we still have a chance to win the series and take all 3 of our first series of the '08 season.
Oh, and just out of curiosity, what do you all think the Cards should do as guys like Piniero, Mulder, and Carp return from injury IF (and it's a big if) guys like Looper, Wellemeyer, and Thompson continue this strong start? Granted, it's a good problem to have. But if you ask me, if all 3 continue to pitch well, I'd say moving Looper back to the pen is the best idea because he has the least upside and has ample experience out of the pen.
by Matty I on Apr 8, 2008 2:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My guess
1. When Piniero returns, Jimenez will be sent down, and either Wellemeyer or Thompson sent to the 'pen. Not Loop, though.
2. When Mulder returns, Reyes gets sent down, and the other of Walle or Thompson exits the rotation.
3. Clement will never return. I don't see him ever getting his velocity back.
4. Carp will bump Loop out. So I'd predict the following rotation:
Carp
Wagonmaker
Mulder
Piniero
Lohse
The pen will consist of Izzy, Looper, Wellemeyer, Thompson, Springer, Vallone, and Flores. If Kinny returns, maybe Springer gets bounced.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on Apr 8, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No TJ or Franklin?
Where do you think they will end up? Franklin might have some trade value and I'm sure the Cards will want to hang on to TJ one way or another.
We have a potentially good problem in having too many pitchers. That's why I've been saying since ST that this team just needs to hang around until the big boys come back.
Ok Skippy... you're starting. Now START HITTING!
by stltrav09 on Apr 8, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Johnson
For some reason, I'm not optimistic about his return. Can't say why. Just a feeling.
Hopefully, I'm wrong, and he'll bump either Villone or Flores. I don't especially care which.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on Apr 8, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with all but #2
2. McClellan might get sent down before Reyes. And depending on how everyone is pitching. Mulder might start in the bullpen.
by Evilfrog on Apr 8, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Small samples, optimism, and pessimism
Another way to keep from swinging too wildly between optimism and pessimism is to look at team stats to see where we might be headed in the future--what's sustainable? What's likely to regress? What do less noisy stats (e.g., FIP) look like?
Here's some interesting stats from the team stats page at Hardball Times:
Pitching
Team ERA is 2.32 but our FIP is 4.16, near the current NL average. If that's what we regress to, I'll take it.
The LOB% is 90%, which is high and has to come down.
K/G of 7.2 looks higher than the Cardinals have produced in recent years (about 6 Ks per game last year); not sure if that can stick. Other pitching numbers look sustainable.
HR/Fly is 27%, which is very high, and will come down (there are debates about groundball oriented staffs perhaps having higher HR rates, but this rate is 2.5 times the current league average.) Cardinal IF/Fly is 43%, which is bizarrely high (league average is 15%) and will come down. Not sure what to make of these two stats, assuming they are not typos. Together, they suggest that Cardinal outfielders haven't had many flyballs to catch yet (which tempers the Fielding numbers below). The overall flyball rate (31%) isn't too different from NL average, and is what you'd expect given a groundball staff (49% GB rate currently) and a 20% LD rate--thus, the strange flyball outcomes are not due to some ridiculously small sample of flyballs compared to other NL teams. (I acknowledge that all samples are small this time of year....)
Batting
The team BA/RSP, as others have noted, is low at .212 and should tick up.
Our OBP has been surprising, which has been driven by walk rates, not hitting (our current BA is sustainable; current BABIP is only a little above league average). Not sure what numbers to look at to see if the walk rate is sustainable. Obviously, some individual players are much higher than career norms(e.g., Izturis).
Fielding
The Cardinal outfield zone rating (RZR) is 1.000 with 21 out of zone outs (OOZ). This is the best outfield performance in the NL. Nice to have some data to back up what many sensed from a younger, more athletic outfield. And Colby hasn't arrived yet.
by ncgostl on Apr 8, 2008 3:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd actually expect this team to exceed it's FIP by a bunch
All the gnashing about Duncan aside, we have a plus defender at every other position, aside from perhaps 2B. Defensively, the Rolen-to-Glaus dropoff is more than counteracted by Eck-to-Izturis. A younger, quicker outfield has certainly seemed pleasing to my eyes, too so far.
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on Apr 8, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to say that that team ERA won't go up
but I think the effect that good team defense has on the guys on the mound sometimes goes understated. I kinda always thought that some of the 'Duncan effect' was attributable to consistently good to great defense in St. Louis.
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on Apr 8, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On a positive note...
This team showed some true spirit in the 9th. I thought Cooper's decision to take Rodriguez out with only 90 pitches was the opening that the Cards needed and they came through if it weren't for the bullpen giving up the HR's. Glaus really showed me something last night. I knew he'd get the bat going, but man he's a gamer. That "slide" may have been uglier than hell, but it got the job done. His defense has impressed me thusfar as well. I think Thompson is going to respond well knowing that he's probably the one to drop to the bullpen when Pineiro returns. I see a Wellemeyer-like performance from Thompson tonight. I really hope to see Barton in the line-up, but I'm guessing it'll be Skip. I'm predicting the Cards' bats to continue the momentum they had late in the 9th inning last night.
...basically.
by Epic on Apr 8, 2008 3:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if we're facing a righty...
I'd be shocked to not see Duncan in the lineup again.
...just a bit outside....
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Apr 8, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wellemeyer
I like how you predict Thompson to have a "Wellemeyer-like" performance. Haven't heard that much before, but hope it continues!!
by soccerfreak on Apr 8, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course...
I meant a wellemeyer-like performance ala last night. In comparison, Thompson and Welly are in the same boat battling for that 5 spot in the rotation for when Pineiro returns (which hopefully will be by next weekend's set against SF). I really have a good feeling about tonight.
...basically.
by Epic on Apr 8, 2008 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont understand this point
"here’s a textbook example of "alternative logic": for 2 solid years, whenever la russa benched duncan against a left-handed pitcher the VEB community bellowed "la russa’s an idiot! duncan’s our second-best hitter!!" last night tony had duncan in the lineup vs a left-hander . . . . . and the community bellowed "la russa’s an idiot! duncan can’t hit lefties!!""
I hear this complaint all too often, but I really do think there are two different factions of fans on issues like this, then when someone makes a compliaint like the quote above both sides get lumped together so its a "cant win" for managment. but you have to expect that people in a large pool are going to have differing opinions on things.
Unless there are obvious examples of the same people flip flopping
by jealousblues on Apr 8, 2008 4:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
While I would like to see once and for all
whether Duncan can hit lefties, or at least walk against them, I still don't get replacing a hot hand (Barton) with Duncan. Let him get back on track against a few righties and then slide him in against lefties. I don't think there was anything to prove to the fans or the clubhouse as anyone who doubts TLRs support of Duncan hasn't been paying attention. He has actually gotten quite a few at-bats against LHPs for no better than he has fared.
The net is that Duncan needs to play against LHPs to prove he is an everyday player. Platoon players with average to below average defensive skills just aren't very valuable.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Apr 8, 2008 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giving Tony credit for Wellemeyer's performance...
is like giving someone credit for becoming a millionaire by playing the lottery.
by DiscoJer on Apr 8, 2008 4:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Someone mentioned Kinney
Anyone know an update on his condition?
by sdrone on Apr 8, 2008 4:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Kinny has suffered some kind of minor setback
can't remember what though.
by ridgesee on Apr 8, 2008 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tonights Lineup is up...
Schumaker and Duncan are at the corners, Larue in for Molina
...just a bit outside....
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Apr 8, 2008 4:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
corners = outfield corners
...just a bit outside....
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Apr 8, 2008 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a nice corner OF
a combined 1 for 22 on the young season.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 8, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
prediction
duncan home run on a chacon hanging slider.
by cdb on Apr 8, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
There were a few of those nice green triangles (sliders) left hanging up there in the fastball range. Let's hope that number grows tonight!
by birdo rojo on Apr 8, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I went the Astro's blog
to get a sample of their take on last night's game and one guy posted this question, "Is Valverde Spanish for Lidge?" Kinda' struck me as funny after Valverde's little meltdown.
by ridgesee on Apr 8, 2008 4:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I have to say
When the Wellemeyer-to-the-rotation thing happened in the first place, all I could thing about was possibly the greatest Onion article in history. I guess the Fusion thing worked out OK too...
With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch
by joker24 on Apr 8, 2008 5:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Rebuttal
That one is pretty good. But this is the single greatest Onion article of all time:
National Funk Congress Deadlocked on Get Up/Get Down Issue
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
by taiko on Apr 8, 2008 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frankly, the in-game thread isn't why I come here.
I know many people enjoy that, and that' s fine. It's just not the way I choose to follow the game, when I'm not listening on XM...it's too difficult to follow and figure out what is going on.
For me, VEB shows it's strength when you have a nice combo of the sabrmetric folks dazzling us with numbers and the non-numerical people like me chipping in by just being fans...not name calling, not insulting, not screaming or flaming, just loving your team and being vocal about it.
I see nothing wrong about being joyful about our good start...obviously, we have a LONG way to go, and I'm not about to order my playoff tickets in April. I'll keep things in perspective, but I'd much rather be 5-2 than 2-5 and looking bad, like many of the "experts" and the "insiders" predicted. And that ain't all bad!!
by tbell61 on Apr 8, 2008 5:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Line up tonight
schumaker 9
duncan 7
pujols 3
ankiel 8
glaus 5
kennedy 4
larue 2
thompson 1
izturis 6
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 8, 2008 5:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can live with that
Hopefully having Ank in the 4 hole gets Albert some pitches to drive.
by Matty I on Apr 8, 2008 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just think, if our lineup was:
Renteria
Polanco
Sheffield
Ordonez
Cabrera
Guillen
Rodriguez
Jones
Inge
We could be 0-7...
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 8, 2008 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's really unbelievable
Count me among those that believed (and really still believe) that that lineup is a murderer's row.
by OCCardsFan on Apr 8, 2008 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they certainly should be
and will be, eventually, I'm sure. it's a long, long season...
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 8, 2008 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They're lineup won't be the problem by the end of the year
Willis is toast, Bonderman has looked toast results wise, Rogers is 43, and Robertson is OK. Even Verlander has gotten lit but he's too nasty to struggle for too long IMO. Not to mention Zumaya is out for awhile and it's a big ? if he returns effective, Rodney wants surgery, and Jones has a significant chance of crashing.
With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch
by joker24 on Apr 8, 2008 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Detroit
I completely agree. Their pitching staff is what might end up doing them in in the long haul. Zumaya is, in my opinion, the only plus guy they have in that 'pen, and the rotation is questionable. Verlander is great, and while Bonderman has struggled at times...he's legit. I really have a feeling that Willis needs surgery or something...he just hasn't been able to put up consistant numbers in the past 2+ seasons. But he's still young....unlike Rogers, who is showing his age more and more.
If anything, I thought the Tigers would get off to a hot start and fade a little in the second half. An 0-7 start is tough to turn around for anyone...even a modern day murderer's row.
...basically.
by Epic on Apr 8, 2008 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bonderman had a 7.38 2nd half ERA last year
Had an elbow strain or something and was pitching through it. K, BB and HR rates all went sour...bad news. 2 walks 2 bombs 1 strikeout in 6 innings isn't encouraging either.
With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch
by joker24 on Apr 8, 2008 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adam Kennedy, #6 hitter
He is hitting better this season, though, so I guess that's ok. It's just funny to think of.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on Apr 8, 2008 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's added a lot of stability to the lineup really so far being a legitimate hitter
Ankiel's explosion has added a lot of electricity.
With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch
by joker24 on Apr 8, 2008 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a marathon
This is the beauty of baseball. There are 162 games. Of course we want them to win every time out. But that never happens. It's a game where on any one night a hitter with a OPS of .975 can go 0-3 against a pitcher with a whip of 1.6. Baseball's greatness is in it's slow moving nature. The story of the season comes slowly too, almost like a puzzle. You get hints and clues here and there. The overall picture rarely becomes clear until August or even September.
That's why I don't see the need to live and die with each game in baseball. In football, sure! A loss or 2 could literally be the season. Baseball seasons have an ebb and flow that forces you to roll with the punches a little bit. Football is an 1:30 action movie. Baseball is a 1,000 page novel.
Baseball gives a lot more room for debates on strategies too. That's part of the lure also. I love this site because there is a lot of great debate and ideas that bubble up here. We all have our thoughts about what should be done differently, and like to use any evidence on the field that supports our views.
But I can appreciate what Larry is saying here. It's a fine line. Debating what should be done with facts is great reading. Emotional kneejerk rants based simply off a days bad results aren't. Not getting preachy because if someone mentions Aaron Miles to me, I can get as irrational as anyone. I have to curb it myself.
But it's useful to remember that baseball is a game where the right move might not work for you 65% of the time, where the wrong move won't work 70%. The truth comes out by razor thin margins gained or lost over months and months of games. It makes it great fun to discuss and watch, but also means that one nights results never provide any definitive answers or support for theories.
by Merry CRasmus on Apr 8, 2008 7:01 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
very well said
uh,,,um,,,so is there going to be a game thread tonight? i could be around for a while if there is.
don't look now, but the Royals are taking it to the Yankees.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Apr 8, 2008 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that last night's game thread was overzealous, in part, because so many people are picking this team to end up in 4th, 5th or 6th. I really don't see that happening. I think we will be absolutely, positively better than last year. no question. also, with this new team full of fresh guys, I think they need to have a more regular lineup than the usual LaRussa Shuffle. but that said, Tony's one of the game's greatest manager's of all time and I shouldn't criticize. and they all better get used to it...
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 8, 2008 8:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Kennedy did his best to sell that play
It looks like Tony wanted to leave Reyes in so took his chances.
Westcoastbirdwatcher
by westcoastbirdwatcher on Apr 8, 2008 10:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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