I repeat – NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I may be wrong , but he knows he is done . He has nothing left to prove, and he doesn’t exactly need the money.
I hope that they sign he just so he could retire with the BOB , or at least bring him back for spring training like Matheny. Now that would be my dream future manager and pitching coach tandem.

fixed . . . .

pud galvin’s a hall of famer!

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BUF/1883.shtml

Noooo way he has the quickness to play third. Then again, there’s nooooo way Aaron Miles has the arm/range to play third or short.

he also took some grounders at short; Horton said it was an exercise to “keep his hands soft,” but added, “being able to play another position always helps the club.”

Yadi probably could play 3B in a pinch; just play the position like Joe Torre did… play everybody “in”, and get what you can…

I know exactly what you are saying. If Wainer were still throwing free and easy, hell, leave him in. But he wasn’t. His fasball was clocking at something like 86mph, and he had no control with it. Once a pitcher starts to labor, that usually means his legs are pretty much shot, and once his legs are shot, he puts more stress on his arm to try to generate velocity. That is when injuries happen.

OTOH, I know where Tony was coming from. The kid had thrown a good game. It was a tie score. He is our ace (for now, anyway). Show him that you believe in him by letting him try to get a win. Tony seems to love these “statements of action”. By leaving him in there, he is trying to tell Wagonmaker that he has enough confidence in him to finish the game.

I believe that if the Cards led the game in the 8th, Waino would have not come back out for the 9th at all.

Thanks for the great outings, Adam, Kyle, and Kyle. Thanks to you guys, our aging bullpen finally got some much-needed rest.

“The problem with TLR’s assertion that you can see a pitcher getting tired is that when you see it…it’s too late.”

That is such a true statement and I have seen so many pitchers abused over the years. I mean right before my eyes watching a game, knowing it was happening. But it will continue. Often times a manager has such an over worked bull pen that he doesn’t know which way to go. A tired pitcher is the only way to go. You damage the one on the mound or you risk injuring a tired arm from the bullpen rushing to heat up and come in and throw under pressure. Bob Gibson had a great career but it should have been longer because he was one of the most abused pitchers of his time.

Often a manager just has a tendency to override a good horse. That is why I have a soft spot for pitchers. They risk so much every time they appear and I dislike umpires that squeeze the strike zone on pitchers. I favor umpires with a liberal strike zone. Makes hitters get bats off their sholders and put the ball in play. How many times do you see a hitter lay off a ball that could be called a strike and the umpire give him a break and call it a ball, only to see the hitter on the next pitch swing at the pitch a foot outside and ground weakly to 2nd base. Now I’m not saying umpiring is bad.
It is generally good, but I’m saying If I personally was a MLB umpire, word would soon get around that I was fair, but a pitcher umpire and in late inning you better get the bat off your sholder against a tired pitcher because the Pitcher is going to get the benefit of the doubt. I say this because I see umpires that do this and I think it makes for a better game.

i still liked the numbers but all the above analysis shows is that those who have pitched over 115 pitches went to the DL at sometime. We have no comparison to the group of pitchers who haven’t pitched over 115 pitches with as many appearances so it isn’t clear whether these DL rates are any quicker or worse than normal. So it’s not even a correlation or association because there’s no variance in the independent variable.

Obviously higher pitch counts relate to injuries, but the more important question is whether infrequent high pitch counts (as with Waino) are as harmful as consistent overuse (Dusty Baker). It would probably be best to compare these injury rates with those of pitchers who had as many and frequent of starts but never had high pitch counts. And then see whether pitchers who have been overused a couple of times are more likely to go to the DL and whether pitching over 115 pitches shortens the average time it takes one to get to the DL.

I’m a little confused by the TLR overuse beliefs – 3 nights in August paints Tony as someone well aware of the costs of overusing pitchers, especially compared to Baker. Maybe not someone you want to grade against, but TLR isn’t that bad.

Basically shut it down for the rest of the year and then try to get either a non-roster invite/minor league contract to get a tryout at spring training next year.

If successful, it could raise all sorts of possibilities for handling pitchers.

Although the MLB-wide trend toward youth seems to make this unlikely.

and it was a good idea in principle. LaRussa gave him the rope to finish the game. The problem came after 2 outs. He was at 109 pitches after getting the first two outs, not a particularly alarming number. If he had gotten the next guy out on 5 pitches, there wouldn’t have been much of a problem. However, Wainwright took 17 more pitches to end the inning.

The error on LaRussa’s part was not having someone up and throwing the whole inning. If Wainwright had gotten Berkman within a reasonable number of pitches, we wouldn’t probably be having this discussion.

I don’t have a problem with the 126 pitches as long as his next start is well managed. I wouldn’t even be opposed to his next start after this upcoming one being pushed back a day because of Mulder’s callup.

Gibson had twenty-eight(28!) complete games. And as someone who was in his formative(read: teen) years during the ‘60s, the only significant arm injuries that I can remember were Sandy Koufax and “Sudden” Sam McDowell. I’m sure there were more, but those are the ones that I remember off the top of my head. `

Pitching was different strategically back then-there weren’t as many max effort pitches-pitchers would more commonly throw at 80%, and rely on sight movement and command to get outs. Guys are throwing with much more aggressive stuff these days, and I’ve heard that, in addition to pitches while tired, the number of max effort pitches is strongly correlative to injury. I’ve heard Curt Schilling talk about this, where he has about five pitches that he can use in a start for when he has to get a guy out. I’ve seen Carp do the same thing—suddenly start flashing hot stuff when he’s in big trouble late in a game.

People pitch about today’s staters being pampered, but back then it was basically the survival of the fittest – those starters who didn’t have freak arms were out of baseball after a few years. If you just look at lists of the starters of a team from year to year, you’ll see a lot of new names every few years.

Let me borrow a post from PD, from a user named nighthawk, who mentions some prominent ones from the 60s that got hurt

—-—
Sandy Koufax routinely pitch 300+ innings a year. Guess how many games he pitch after the age of 30? Zero.

Juan Marichal was done as an effective pitcher at the age of 33. Guess why?

Luis Tiant built up to 258 and 249 innings at age 27 and 28….then proceeded to pitch 92 and 72 innings the following two years. Guess why?

Gaylord Perry’s brother Jim pitched 261 and 223 innings in 1960 and 1961. He would not pitch 200+ innings for the next eight years. Guess why?

Dean Chance average about 12 complete games and 250+ innings for six years in the 1960s—winning the Cy Young award in 1964. Guess why he pitch no games after the age of 30?

Fritz Peterson averaged about 250 innings a year in the late 1960s and early 1970s. He never pitched 200 innings after the age of 30. Guess why?

Bill Singer pitched 204 innings at the age of 23, 256 innings at the age of 24 and then 315 innings at the age of 25. Then he pitch 106 innings at the age of 26. Guess why? He managed to get up to 315 innings again two years later and then toss only 108 innings the following year. Guess why?

Sam McDowell had a blazing fastball and racked up a lot innings in the 1960s and pitch 305 innings in 1970. He was done as an effect pitcher by the age of 30. Guess why?

Mel Stottlemeyer was good for 250 to 300 innings a year in the 1960s. He was done as an effect pitcher at the age of 31. Guess why?

Denny McClain pitched 336 innings in 1968 and 325 innings in 1969. He was done as an effective starterat the age of 26. Guess why?

Don Drysdale had four 300+ inning campaigns in the 1960s. He was done as a pitcher at the age of 31. Guess why?

Jim Maloney had four years of 10+ complete games to go with four 200+ strikeout seasons. He was done as an effective pitcher at the age of 29. Guess why?

been a certain amount of pitchers fall by the wayside from arm problems ever since I can remember going back to late 40,s. certainly no more than today and maybe even less. The pitching in the early 50,s was in general as week as pitching is today. There were a number of hard throwers, Don Newcombe, Allie Reynolds, Bob Feller, Bob Lemon, Robin Roberts etc. but most teams had a hard time scraping together four adequate starters, therefore good pitchers were heavily over worked and did not last long. Most teams had 1 or 2 pitchers with close or over 300 innings.
Then in the late 50’s for some reason a number of strong armed pitchers came along and dominated the game. This lasted to the mid 70’s. This led to the mound being lowered after Gibson’s big year because the powers that be wanted more offense in the game.

You have got to think that that has hurt the pitchers because up till then everybody used a four man rotation and nobody seemed to have trouble pitching every forth day and being effective. Now only the best can pitch much over 200 innings and using a five man rotation.
( and arm injuries are just or slightly more frequent) I for one would like to see the mound go back to it’s origional height.

if we could bring him back for one game at home. Give him the start and let the fans show him how much they appreciate what he did for the team.

Of course he’d go seven strong and we’d end up signing him and regretting it, but…

Ryan, Izturis, Kennedy and Miles are all going to get playing time and be subbed into and out of the lineup, according to Tony’s tea leaves.

But on days when Glaus sits, Tony has to play Izturis, right?

the return of Walt and Dusty Baker to St. Louis and it should be an eventful series.

I hope we get good starts from Pinero & Looper, because we are going to be facing two tough starters in Cueto and Harang. But Arroyo has been really bad this year I think we can hammer him. I’m curious to see how we do against Cueto “The strike out machine”.

Pineiro/Looper is exactly what is going to crush this team over the long haul. Well, that and Ludwick/Ankiel regressing…. But there’s something that can be done for our starting pitching: Jaime Garcia. Get him up here! Then send him to Memphis if/when Mulder or Carpenter come back. He won’t gain super-2 and he won’t be “rushed”. Hell, they’re destroying is arm at Springfield anyway. Might as well put that to good use with the big league squad.

and made me realize how potentially dangerous their lineup is. I sort of wrote them off.

Will get his starts. But Tony seems high on Ryan snice he has been back.

this is a big week!

btw, what does Brian Barton have to do to get some playing time?

Luddy leading off?

Izturis of course.

should post that in the clubhouse

Outstanding!

And I’m pretty sure it was really written by an Astros fan, too! <smirk>

if we lose Wainwright’s arm all because TLR wants to develop his attitude and leadership skills, then who do we have left to take over?

I’m still learning, but I think it’s a little dangerous to let Wainwright pitch that often while he’s tired.