Wrong Up The Middle
by azruavatar on Apr 25, 2008 8:00 AM EDT
185 comments
The Cardinals were faced with a conundrum this past offseason with the free agency of their leadoff hitter and primary SS of the last 3 years David Eckstein. Add to that Adam Kennedy's injury plagued 2007 and it was apparent that the players the Cardinals had intended to be key everyday players last year hadn't really lived up to expectations and weren't great bets moving forward. Change was imminent.
The off season brought news of Aaron Miles being non-tendered and then re-signed and Cesar Izturis being plucked from free agency after watching his career collapse over the previous seasons. Brendan Ryan, who had filled in adequately for Eckstein, was left in the utility role again as the Cardinals attempt to see what kind of production they can squeeze out of their veterans.
So far, the returns aren't very good.
Cesar Izturis - .186/.333/.237 - 59 PAs
Adam Kennedy - .315/.367/.333 - 54 PAs
Aaron Miles - .295/.354/.318 - 44 PAs
That's the batting lines as of around 9:00pm last night for our primary middle infielders. Do you notice anything about them in particular? Their OBP is higher than their slugging in each instance. Slappy singles hitters who take a few walks creates that effect but is that maintainable moving forward.
Major League hitters need a certain level of power in order to keep pitchers honest. If they don't have it, they probably aren't going to last too long in the majors. Pitchers will start pumping fastballs down the heart of the plate and letting their defense take care of the rest. If the worst that can happen is a player gets a single, why bother finessing the situation.
Izturis can't seem to buy a hit as of late but Adam Kennedy and Aaron Miles both have respectable batting averages. You'd think I'd lay off them and pick on Izturis but you'd be wrong. Izturis is running into some BABIP bad luck so his batting average ought to regress toward the mean (think mid-.200s). The other two batters are doing something that seems uncommon -- hitting well and walking but hitting for no power. All three players appear to be on their way to at least 200PAs so let's use that as a baseline for historical comparison.
There were about 3100 player seasons from 1997-2006 of 200 or more plate appearances. Now let's start to apply some filters. There were less than 15% of those seasons where a player posted an ISO (slugging percentage minus batting average -- a better measurement of power than just SLG) less than .100. That tells us it really isn't common to see these players even survive the in the league long enough or receive enough of a role to get that many PAs. But this is the Cardinals run by Tony LaRussa and he likes to mix and match and get his bench players plenty of plate appearances. But even more uncommon is that there was less than 5% of those 3100 seasons where a player had an OBP higher than their slugging percentage. That number drops to under 4% when you combine the two filters (ISO < .100 and OBP>SLG).
So what our middle infield is doing is uncommon. I'd suspect, without looking at the list of players that it's comprised mostly of 2B, SS and catchers (Jason LaRue fits these criteria as well) but we're still talking about a small segment of the baseball community that's capable of putting up these numbers. If you look at the OPS of those players 75% (of that 4% that Kennedy and Miles currently fit into in) had an OPS under .700 -- not good. So only 1% of the players from 1997-2006 who received 200 plate appearances posted an OPS over .700, with an ISO < .100 and an on base percentage greater than their slugging.
That may seem like I've stacked the deck against our middle infield when looking at the numbers (given the number of filters I've applied) but I'm trying to point out how hard it is to have a good season when you are hitting the way Kennedy, Miles and, to a lesser extent, Izturis are hitting. We've seen some turnover in our middle infield but it's a massive weakness offensively and the few things that are going right for them now (taking walks) are, historically, unprecedented over the long term. Giving more playing time to Brendan Ryan or perhaps replacing one of Kennedy/Miles with Jarrett Hoffpauir (although he hasn't displayed the requisite power in Memphis with an ISO of .076 right now) could help but these are all marginal offensive players or marginal upgrades. The team would be wise to try and cobble together some kind of deal with their seeming excess in the outfield and on the mound to try and make a deal at either SS or 2B because things could get worse in a hurry. It's the most glaring weakness for the Cardinals right now and there doesn't appear to be any internal improvements available in the near term.
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Most Feared Hitter
Good post.
On the complete opposite end of the hitting spectrum, ESPN has a story about the “most feared hitter in baseball” as voted by the managers. Guess who?
"...but If I can do some damage and help my team win, I'm going to stay in there" -Albert
by BigMOman on Apr 25, 2008 8:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well Done
Good job, Az. You have put in numbers exactly what I’ve tried to explain to people about our middle infielders for a while now. I’ll just have to send them the link from now on.
by roarke on Apr 25, 2008 8:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The middle infield is bad?
Whoa! Who knew? Who could have predicted that? I am flabbergasted! (/sarcasm)
THT runs a weekly article called the Pujols Awards. First of all, that’s pretty darn cool. Albert is recognized as such a nice charitable guy that he gets mentioned as the role model. Secondly, this weeks article contains a nice blurb about two ex-Cards: Suppan and Percival.
by RedbirdRay on Apr 25, 2008 8:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
more SB problems?
I wonder if there are more SB problems? BigMOman’s link didn’t work right. I entered “Pujols Awards” as a link to the article I mentioned and it didn’t work either. I’ll just throw it up long style here to make sure it works:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-pujols-awards-week-16/
by RedbirdRay on Apr 25, 2008 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
giving luke scott a luis
is just wrong. Ain’t nuttin’ wrong with that..
Props for Jeff Suppan…
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree wholeheartedly
No way that Miles and Kennedy can keep up those lines. This is an area that needs to be upgraded not just for this season but the future as well.
by indakind on Apr 25, 2008 8:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is it reasonable
to think that Cesar will begin to get more luck and get his average up into the mid .200s but not maintain his walk rate, causing his OBP to fall to his career levels? Cesar with a .250 avg, .305 OBP, .320 SLG just looks inevitable. Where is CardsWin pimping Izturis now?
Something needs to be done about this. Our middle infield is so atrocious that we cannot win a division title with them. There are just too many black holes right now to support consistent offensive production. It is also crazy to me, and to many of you, why we keep signing some of these guys when we have players who can do the same thing for a fraction of the cost.
Hopefully some moves are made, roles become more clearly defined, and some deadweight is DFAed and we stop giving roster spots to stopgap players.
I am extremely encouraged about this start. It just doesn’t seem sustainable.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Apr 25, 2008 9:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Slappies
The influx of slappies to the middle infield began with David Eckstein.
David Eckstein’s ISO with the Cardinals:
2005 .294 BA / .395 SLG / .101 ISO
2006 ..292 BA / .344 SLG / .058 ISO
2007 .309 BA / .382 SLG / .073 ISO
Only one of those seasons, 2006, did Eckstein post an OBP (.350) higher than his SLG % (.344). However, Eckstein is doing the same thing in this very young season, posting a .337 OBP to top his .321 SLG through 21 games.
With Miles and Izturis, we were never going to get a +.700 OPS. Grit has never done it in a season where he had more than 9 ABs. Izturis has only done it once, in 2004, and nobody reading this needs me to tell them that this Izturis is not of the ‘04 vintage. What’s more, his BA may see an uptick, but his OBP will likely continue its precipitous fall to his career norm of .297. Cesar Izturis is the proverbial Little League No. 9 hitter where you pray for a walk or a HBP so that he doesn’t kill a rally.
For me, the jury is still out on AK, but I fear for the worst. His OPS went from .757 in ‘04 to .724 in ‘05 to .718 in ‘06. So, lets give ‘im a three-year contract. Last year, his offense fell off of a cliff, as we all know, when he posted a .572 OPS in an injury-shortened season. His walk rate, so far, is not that far off of career levels. However, his doubles are nowhere to be found. Maybe he’ll heat up with the St. Louis weather; maybe he won’t. Time will tell.
If I’d have told you that we’d have an OBP from our secondbasemen of .372, good for fifth in all of MLB, at the beginning of this season, who wouldn’t have taken it? Our OPS ranks 12th in baseball for the position, which isn’t bad, but not great. Right now, we are operating on a best-case-scenario for that platoon with the possible icing on the secondbasemen cake being AK ripping a few doubles.
As for SS, Izturis has to go. There is no reason to believe that he will do anything at the plate to warrant his being regularly pencilled in at SS. Our SS OPS is 23rd, a little bit ahead of Colorado (wonder how long that’ll last?). The Miles/Izturis cocktail there is unacceptable. Thank goodness we’ve paged Dr. Ryan.
An infield can handle one slick-fielding slappy, but two severely disadvantage a team, particularly a National League team. We need some pop to come from one of the two slots. Right now, our best bets are (1) Ryan; and (2) AK (although not a good bet).
by bgh on Apr 25, 2008 9:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully
Tony will actually put Ryan in and not let him rot on the bench. The kid needs a chance to prove himself. Why continue to let an open wound fester in the lineup? Ryan at least has some upside while Cesar is all used up.
by RabidBuffalo on Apr 25, 2008 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post, Azruavatar ... the glaring weakness on the team is Middle Infield ...
and their production in the 7 and 9 slots are killing us … but, it was so predictable even during ST … a move needs to be made to as soon as possible to shore up these deficiencies … jeesh, Izturis is being out-hit by 66% of all PITCHERS in the league … it’s miserable …
Also, THANK YOU!, bgh, for the link to ESPN’s team stats page … I didn’t know you could split it by position, batting order, etc … a very good post …
A few thoughts on yesterday’s game …
Joel Pineiro proved two things yesterday: 1) the Cards brought him back 2 weeks early, and 2) he can still pitch … that was a gem … a FIGS score of 69 is second best of the season … only Wainwright’s 71 gem on 4/10 is better … let’s certainly hope that was a sign of things to come, and not a ‘lucky’ start … this rotation certainly needs another bolstering agent at this point … only 10 of our last 17 starts have scored FIGS of 56 or better, after the hot start … that means in the last 17 games, the staff has 10 good starts and 7 bad ones … let’s hope Piniero, who contributed 2 of those clunkers, continues adding to the right column …
Also, on Pineiro … after his highlight-reel defensive play of the year last night, and after Troy let that ball by him one or two plays later (I’m not knocking Troy … his defense has been pretty good this year, better than I hoped), do you think Joel went over to him and said, “No … you’re supposed to kick it!” ...
Isn’t it nice to have a REAL MLB shortstop playing for us again? ... how re-freshing was it to watch Brendan Ryan go 2-3 with a BB to boot after watching Ickturis’s crap the last couple of weeks? ... I know one of the hits could have been ruled an error; but, the kid just flat out makes things happen when he plays … with his speed, luck, or whatever … I absolutely love to watch him play … he brings a certain amount of energy to the game the team lacks when he’s not around … and how about the highlight-reel pick he had? ... I remember thinking “Cesar never would have come up with that one”, at the time … I hope Brendan gets A LOT of starts at SS … he is clearly the better player … I waiting now for Tony to say to a reporter, “Izturis will have to prove he can still play to re-gain his starting position on this team” ... I’m not holding my breath on that one …
Last observation … We left 23 men on base last night … because we scored 6 runs and Joel did his thing, it didn’t seem to hurt … but this is definately a trend … so far this month, we have 14 games where we have left 15 or more runners on base … in our 8 losses, we left more than 20 on three times … We are currently averaging 4.7 runs per game, but the predictors I am using say we should be averaging closer to 6.0 … I don’t know what our team average is with RISP, but it needs to improve … we’re leaving too many guys on base … azruavatar’s comments on the middle infield probably has a lot to do with it …
Now, let’s kick some Astro butt at home … bounce back tonight, Loop …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOB
Leaving runners stranded is a tremendous concern of mine. The games we lose seem to be the function of missed opportunities (rather than a lack of opportunities). Our .260 BA with RISP is middle-of-the-pack, #14 in MLB. Our Slugging with RISP is not good, .382 (#20 in MLB), which gives the Cards an ISO of .119. We have the 4th most ABs with RISP in baseball, but only the 7th most RBI. 11 of our 17 HRs have come with the bases empty.
Perhaps leveraging the early high OBP of a Kennedy in the #2 slot would create an occupied first base more often when Pujols comes up? This would also allow us to stack those holes behind Pujols with threatening lumber-Duncan, Glaus, Ankiel, Ludwick-and could help to drive up our performance with RISP and our run totals.
by bgh on Apr 25, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 ...
Thanks for the extra RISP/ISO stats, bgh … I was too lazy to look them up earlier … .260 … 14th … sounds about right … those figures need to improve and I think will improve … either by improved production from within (we have the talent to have better numbers) or by trade … I hope we improve our 2B position with some pop …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Ryan
looked good last night both at the plate and in the field. I thought he looked good in ST. In fact, I have not seen Ryan look bd since he came up last year. I think it is time to really see what level of play he is capable of sustaining.
I suspect he might be as good as anything we can trade for without giving up too much.
by ridgesee on Apr 25, 2008 9:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if he doesn't get albert killed
With those off line throws.
by Evilfrog on Apr 25, 2008 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glaus
is the one more likely to get albert hurt with one of his side armed throws. I don’t izturis has thrown that well either ..lot of low throws.
by ridgesee on Apr 25, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kennedy
already caused one collision from a bad throw for Albert this year.
by RedbirdRay on Apr 25, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thinking about the same thing yesterday.
I mentally ranked the four options as follows:
defensively: 1.Izturis 2. Ryan 3. Kennedy 4. Miles
offensively: 1. Ryan 2. Kennedy 3. Miles 4. Izturis
The conclusion I reached from this exercise was that Ryan has to start, whether at second or ss. My preference would be for Izturis at ss and Ryan at second. As bgh says above an infield can handle one slick-fielding slappy, but not two. I just feel they need + defense at ss, and that Izturis is the best of the bunch for that. Hopefully azruavatar is correct and his offense will pick up.
by vinniefromjersey on Apr 25, 2008 9:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't like platoon teams that much
I know some platooning can be effective. Casey Stengel used platooning with good effect the whole time he managed the yankees but it was mostly with power hitting outfielders and the Cards seem to be getting production from outfield mix and match now but the middle infield is going to have to be settled in somehow.
by ridgesee on Apr 25, 2008 9:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Effectivenss of Platooning
I am sure it’s been brought up before at VEB but Retrosheet has a good (but dated) article entitled “The Effectivenss of Platooning” by David Smith.
Here is the site.
He examines the “handedness advantage” derived from the direction of the breaking of the ball and the release pt. of the pitcher. The article talks a lot about switch hitting which is not too applicable to our current situation. But we do have non-switch hitting platooning with our outfield and to a lesser degree with a possible platooning infield with lefty Kennedy. It seems like TLR has put platooning to good use this season as the outfield is doing pretty well, not withstanding Ank’s mini slump.
But back to Azru’s point on wrong up the middle… Azru examined MIF independent from the rest of the lineup. So from the perspective of the overall productivity of an entire lineup, could a combination of high OBP+low ISO MIF possibly work if the SLG comes from the rest of the lineup? i.e. MIF’s get on base, and others get them home? I don’t remember anyone complaining about Eck’s low ISO when Gruds, El Hombre, and Walker were driving him home. Just a thought. I know ideally we would want high ISO everywhere.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Apr 25, 2008 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem isn't just isolated power
it’s also that these guys’ OBP is dependent on them slapping singles since their walk rates are historically mediocre/low. Thus, the OBP will regress to the mean over time, while our power hitters repeatedly get pitched around.
by silent_bob on Apr 25, 2008 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stand corrected
Agreed. I think Azru’s point is especially valid because MIF’s lack of power will affect negatively the rest of the lineup. Also the lack of speed adds to the slapping problem.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Apr 25, 2008 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's are options?
What is our options that we can do? I am hoping on the fact the Dodgers fall out of it fast and want to make some kind of trade for Rafael Furcal. SS and 2B is the positions I have no problem the Cardinals over pay for.
by FlimtotheFlam on Apr 25, 2008 9:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Furcal's contract
How many years does Furcal have left on his contract?
by roarke on Apr 25, 2008 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Furcal
The Dodgers are more likely to extend Furcal than trade him, which could open the door for a Chin-Lung Hu trade, who’s not too shabby himself.
"because at the end of the day they still are the Chicago Cubs"
by rockin the red on Apr 25, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Last Year
This is the last year of the contract and he is getting paid $13 mil
by FlimtotheFlam on Apr 25, 2008 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Options
Brent Lillibridge, Chin-Lung Hu, Jed Lowrie all come to mind… Michael Young is an option but an expensive one at that – he’s due $80 over 5 years after this season.
"because at the end of the day they still are the Chicago Cubs"
by rockin the red on Apr 25, 2008 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is,
$80 million over 5 years… sorry
"because at the end of the day they still are the Chicago Cubs"
by rockin the red on Apr 25, 2008 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Young shouldnt be an option
a not too good defensive SS who is signed to a way expensive contract for his decline years.
by FunkeeC on Apr 25, 2008 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OT but...
I was puttering around on www.hardballtimes.com today and noticed that Troy Glaus is currently 1st among all 3rd basemen in Revised Zone Rating and tied for 6th in out of zone plays, not bad for a guy who people were a little worried about defensively. Now if he can just turn a few of those doubles into dingers…
by mikedallas45 on Apr 25, 2008 9:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Also
Izturis is 2nd among SSers and Ankiel is 3rd among CFers, fun with small sample sizes!
by mikedallas45 on Apr 25, 2008 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm having fun
tracking his doubles vs the MLB record of 67. With 11 in 23 games, he’s on pace for 77.5 as of now. He’s also got 5 games in a row with at least one double, but I’m not sure how to find that record.
It’s not as fun as watching pujols chase bonds/wilson in ‘06, but it’s what we’ve got…
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice job seeing it as glass half FULL
Personally, I would be sad to see Troy break that doubles record…since it would invariably mean that, just like we’ve seen so far, most of those doubles should have been homeruns…but came up just short.
Here’s hoping he keeps hitting doubles, but starts replacing at least SOME of them with round-trippers one of these days…
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
by Mr Clean on Apr 25, 2008 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Josh Barfield + Brent Lillibridge = MI solved
It might not be easy to get these two, but these two would instantly take us from the worst MI in baseball to a young, athletic one with room to improve, IMO….they’ve both got good defensive skills and speed. And they can’t be any worse at the plate…..
The Braves’ pen is brutal. Maybe we can put together something of interest (Thompson + someone else?). Meanwhile, Barfield is at Triple-A for the Indians. They’re looking for OF and bullpen help (Skip + a P?). The worst these teams can say is no, right?
Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.
by TurdFerguson on Apr 25, 2008 9:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
we really match up well with the Indians
I talked about this in Harcore’s “40 acres” thread, which seems to have run its course, but with Peralta (26) and Asdrubal Cabrera (22) up the middle they are pretty much set for a while and have some very, very good MI prospects in the minors. They are desperate for relief pitching- borowski is done imo- and MLB-caliber outfielders. Adam Kennedy (88 OPS+) is currently hitting almost as well as their entire outfield (90 OPS+). Dellucci is off to a good start, but he’s 34, not as good as he has been playing, and useless against lefties, and Gutierrez/Michaels are just flat out awful. Sizemore is the only thing keeping them above water, and he is slumping so far this year.
It’s pretty ironic that we got two of our current OF surplus from them for free (ludwick, as a minor league free agent, and Barton as a rule 5). If we could turn one of our outfielders or relievers (franklin?) into one of their SS prospects, or even Peralta (obviously that would cost more) it would solve our problem in one fell swoop. Peralta needs to be moved to third eventually, but can still play SS well enough to get us through the Glaus era and give Kozma time to develop.
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we could match up with the Braves too
They’re going to be set at MI for years with Johnson and Escobar. The Braves’ top two relievers are on the DL, so they could use the help there. Duncan might interest them. He could play in LF for the rest of this season, then slide over to 1B if Big Tex leaves. Package him and a reliever and maybe we have ourselves a SS…
Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.
by TurdFerguson on Apr 25, 2008 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the STL co-ed softball Cardinals
Great post. I always think of a co-ed softball team when I watch the Cardinals bat. Everbody backs up when Pujols, Ankiel, Duncan, Glaus, and Duncan are at the plate and then they have to move way in when Miles, Izturis, Kennedy, Molina and the pitcher (except for Wagonmaker) are up. Maybe Tony should just make the lineup out alternating the men and the women! No offense to women softball players, most of them can hit it farther than I can.
It would be nice to see what Ryan could do given the opportunity to play 5-6 times per week. We can only hope that Tony feels the same way.
by lefty fan on Apr 25, 2008 9:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That...
and that fact that Duncan looks like a guy who would hang out with a can of beer in his throwing hand while playing left field…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Apr 25, 2008 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
great post...
I hope the guys upstairs are listening.
We need Ryan and his gap power.
by RedbirdAvenger on Apr 25, 2008 10:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Noodle Arm
So, is there any disagreement, after Barton’s atrocious throw last night, that LaRussa’s been justified in pulling him at around the 6th Inning? The throw was inexplicably bad, like what I see in my softball league (from the bad players, that is).
If that throw is representative of his skills, then Barton’s going to make Manny Ramirez look like a defensive wizard.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on Apr 25, 2008 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes
I suppose there are times it’s appropriate. But, the arm isn’t such an issue in left field. Also, TLR has shorted his bench to pull Barton several times when it wasn’t really that necessary. I can see a RF replacement or a 9th inning replacement. But, pulling him from left field in the 7th when we are up by 2 runs or down by 2 runs or whatever is completely unnecessary. It’s what causes pinch hitting appearances by pitchers.
If he’s so bad, he can’t man left field with a 2 run lead…he shouldn’t be on the team at all. That’s certainly not the case.
by RedbirdRay on Apr 25, 2008 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are PH appearances
by Wainwright so bad? :)
by saladdays on Apr 25, 2008 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Close Games
Of course, it’s been the close games we’re we’ve run out of bench players. Those are the games where Tony’s been most likely to start manically pushing buttons.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on Apr 25, 2008 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dissagree
Tony has been replacing him with a “better” defensive player mainly due to arm concerns. He doesn’t want him to give up runs in a close game. We now see why Tony believes that Barton can be a liability with his arm.
As for him being so bad; well; Barton says it’s not so much an issue with his arm strength. More of how he throws the ball. (to the cuttoff and not through the cut off.) And he has been working on it a lot before games. So he’ll get batter. Ideally you would want him to figure that stuff out in the minors. (he never played above double A). But we really send him down to Memphis for a month worth of coaching and every day starts.
by Evilfrog on Apr 25, 2008 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony's use pattern
is questionable.
I would also like to re-state my rationale that in LF arm strength doesn’t matter that much. A LF rarely throws a guy out tagging from 3rd. It would most likely be a play generated from a guy running second to home that requires a throw. That situation is most likely dependent on where the ball is hit and the SS will be well out in the outfield if the ball goes to the corner anyway.
Tony’s use pattern so far doesn’t really back up the close game theorey. Granted it’s a small sample size.
Barton has started 8 games so far. 7 in left, 1 in right.
He has been pulled early in 5/8 of those:
On the 4th, he was pulled after 5 innings when the Cardinals were up 5-1.
On the 5th, he was pulled after 6 when StL was up 4-1.
On the 6th, he was pulled after 4 when StL was up 2-0.
On the 17th, he was pulled after 6 when StL was up 3-0 (we then lost in extras).
On the 22nd, he was pulled after 5 when StL was down 3-4 (went 12 innings).
He has been allowed to finish 3 games:
On the 11th, the Cards were up 4-2 when his usual pull time came and went.
On the 20th, we were losing 8-0 around sub-time.
Last night, we were up 5-1 around “defense-O’clock”.
So, in the 5 games pulled…..the run differential was 2 runs or less in only 2 of them.
And, in the 3 games left in…..one of them had only a 1 run differential when sub time came around.
Doesn’t really back up the “defensive substitution” reasoning.
by RedbirdRay on Apr 25, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the one chance that I remember,
Barton threw out the runner who tried to score from 2nd.
by silent_bob on Apr 25, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he also threw a guy out at third
I can’t remember which game it was, but it was a nice throw.
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm guessing
you intended to say “we really can’t send him down to Memphis”... because the Cards literally can’t! As a “Rule 5” guy, he’s got to stay on the ML roster all season.
Barton will get plenty of work in before games; he’ll improve as the season goes along.
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on Apr 25, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes I meant we can't send him down.
And that he has to get his coaching up in the Majors.
Guess I missed the last two games when he was allowed to finish. The 4th; 5th; and 6th had more to do with it being his first major league games than the score. But it still fits the pattern of Tony wanting to ease him into playing time and having him finish most of his games by the time June rolls around.
by Evilfrog on Apr 25, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this
I don’t think his arm is weak per se, though I was one of the first one to come on here and say he had a “noodle arm” I’ve revised my estimate. i think his arm is fine, but his setup to throw is bad. He doesn’t do a good job of getting behind his throws. In warmups he can throw it on a line from RF to 3B at least as well as luddy or duncan, but when he’s digging the ball out of a corner he rushes and throws off-balance.
This is something that can be worked on and fixed. If his arm was just “weak”, it probably wouldn’t be.
Regardless, Barton should never be pinch hit for in a situation where a walk would help the team or against a pitcher like Riske, who walks a boatload. The guy has a very good eye and if you send him up to the plate and tell him to take a walk, there’s a very good chance he will.
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barton is a rookie ...
and he’s going to make rookie mistakes from time to time … getting picked off at 2nd was another case in point … Brendan Ryan’s going to make some too in the next several days … but their upsides are worth it … and you just have to live with it … I’m sure Tony will do all he can to limit their exposure … however, I say, “let’em play” ... by the way … I think Tony has molly-coddled Barton a little too much in the outfield, and made some bad replacement calls which hurt us in late-game situations … I think Barton is a little better defensively than he’s being treated … one bad throw notwithstanding …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being that was his 23rd game in the SHOW
Throws to the wrong spot and getting picked off base are part of the learning process. Not sure we’re going to see him start this weekend with the Cards facing 3 righties.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 25, 2008 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what Im saying
He is trying to learn the game at a Major Legaue level. It takes time and mistakes. While he learns we have to accept that A.) Tony is going to pull him a lot early on. And B.) He will make mistakes. He will also show why he made the team. And that is because of his speed and his bat.
by Evilfrog on Apr 25, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jose Martinez?
I understand that he’s not a slam dunk to make it to the bigs and perform well, but he’s been playing pretty well at Springfield this year. His AVG and OBP are a little low, but he’s arguably been the most productive hitter on the team so far.
by saladdays on Apr 25, 2008 10:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OK, looking closer
I wouldn’t call him the most productive, but he’s up there.
by saladdays on Apr 25, 2008 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's an interesting prospect but he's at least another year away
and perhaps longer. Personally, I’m not much of a believer. Defensively the metrics show that he’s more than adequate at SS and 2B but his offensive value is based almost solely on his ability to maintain a decent batting average since he almost never walks. He’s got some pop in his bat as well but he’s not going to be hitting more than about 10-15 HR.
I think he’s likely a utility guy but if you want a major league comparable I’d go with Juan Uribe of the White Sox. Same skillset that gets stretched a little thin as an everyday player.
by azruavatar on Apr 25, 2008 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where has the power gone?
The Cards have zero home runs for the week. The last home runs were hit by AP and Lil Dunc last Friday.
This is not a good sign. I’m concerned about the MI too, but the power outage overall is concerning.
by OCCardsFan on Apr 25, 2008 11:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You are right!
We should place Albert, Glaus, Ankiel, Duncan and Ludwick on the DL immediately!
I think they will be fine. We are averaging 5 runs a game over that small span. Pujols has walked 7 times, been HBP twice and is 10/25. Glaus is waking up.
And, Duncan homered within the last week (one week exactly!)
by RedbirdRay on Apr 25, 2008 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jayson Nix
I’m still saying that we can solve our problems at 2B by getting Jayson Nix from the Rockies. He couldn’t have possibly just forgotten how to hit at age 25.
How about this fix for both the power and MIF woes? Let Ryan start at SS, sign Barry Bonds to platoon in LF, use Duncan, Thompson, Reyes or Skippy + mid-level prospects to try and pry Brian Roberts away from Peter Angelos Cold Dead hands.
That of course will NEVER happen but it’s not fair to kill my dream of a lineup:
Roberts 2B
Barton/Ludwick RF
Pujols 1B
Bonds/Ludwick LF/CF
Glaus 3B
Ankiel/Duncan (if he is left) CF/LF
Molina C
Pitcher
Ryan SS
Start printing the playoff tickets! :D
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 25, 2008 12:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Take it to the bank!
Now we need to make sure we have the pitching to accompany it…
by saladdays on Apr 25, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way ...
I like your comments on going after Brian Roberts at 2B … if that move could be made without blowing up the team and/or farm system, I’d go for it … Hoffpauir may end up being the solution at second, but his production numbers aren’t that impressive …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Angelos loves Roberts
It would take a major deal to pry Roberts away. McPhail is trying to work out some deals with the long term in mind but Angelos will veto most. Angelos is thinking more of Wainright and others for Roberts. Rational baseball thinking is not one of Angelos’ strengths.
by ubeddie on Apr 25, 2008 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then Angelos can go *!^# himself ...
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nix
stats aren’t that great for Nix:
Two years at AAA, with 400-500 AB each year. In 2006, OPS of 0.626. Not a good hitter. 2007 – OPS of 0.788, his batting average was also 40 points higher in 2007, in part through a 0.335 BABIP, which is coincidentally (or not) about 40 points higher than his 2006 average.
I would venture to say that his offense is definitely not an upgrade over Hoff, who also has one good year. I have heard in the local media that offense has been the only thing holding Nix back, his defense is sound, and he even had Tulo lobbying for him in the spring. All for naught, I suspect he will loose his job to Barmes. But I don’t think that the Rockies are going to ship him off either, he is the backup middle infielder should anything happen to Barmes/Tulo, (Jeff Baker has played a little second, but he is a butcher defensively). I just don’t see the nix trade being that beneficial to the cards. He has really struggled against MLB pitching, and his minor league numbers don’t offer a ton of optimism that he will come out of it soon – may take a year. THat being said – if he could put of a 750-800 OPS consistently for a few years, he would be a treat to have as a second baseman.
by cdb on Apr 25, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for breaking that down
for some reason, I thought his offense had been better than that in the minor leagues.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 25, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there are few things that would make me stop being a Cardinals fan
and signing Barroids is one of them. I don’t care how good of a player he is… i have morals.
Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!
(now accepting applications)
by stltrav09 on Apr 25, 2008 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as opposed to when they got Ryan Franklin who has actually tested positive?
Bonds is hated because he’s aloof and been cast as the steroids pariah despite the fact that other players (how about Giambi) have actually been caught. It’s mind boggling to me.
by azruavatar on Apr 25, 2008 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I can totally understand stopping your allegiance to the Cards
over Bonds.
Yay! Go Rick Ankiel! Go Troy Glaus! Go Ryan Franklin! Go Ron Villone!
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 25, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't recall mentioning anything about steroids.
And although that is one of the reasons I don’t like him (I don’t care if he’s ever tested positive), it goes way beyond. He has all the characteristics that I dislike in people. I’m sure there are players on the current roster that are bigger assholes but I know about Barry because he is constantly on TV. Whether that’s fair or not I really don’t care.
I dislike the guy.. is that okay with you HL? At least I’m not hating on CURRENT players.
Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!
(now accepting applications)
by stltrav09 on Apr 25, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
you insinuate in your original post that you dislike him because you have morals. The obvious (and completely fair) implication is that people who like Bonds have no morals. So I guess I disagree with you that you simply “dislike the guy.”
I think Bonds is an asshole too, but I don’t think my personal distaste for someone is a moral issue.
by Ray Lankford on Apr 25, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok perhaps throwing the moral line out there was a bit much then.
Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!
(now accepting applications)
by stltrav09 on Apr 25, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously?! Hardcore, you're a better fan than that.
Don’t try to say that what Bonds did is the same as what Ank did. Ank was hurt. He was perscribed HGH by a DOCTOR. He took it as long as the perscription lasted, then he quit. He never took a banned substance, and he never did it illegally. He is also a pretty good teammate, and a good ballplayer that doesn’t make waves.
There is simply no comparison there. Bonds is a pariah more for his atrocious personality than for his steroids abuse. He is a sideshow that has blown up every clubhouse he has been in. Also, Bonds was taking ILLEGALLY obtained drugs without a perscription and without medical supervision. I would like to know if Glaus, Franklin, Villone, or Ankiel had to get hats or shoes 2 sizes bigger because their drug abuse had caused their skeletal structure to start growing again in their 30’s.
I agree wholeheartedly with Trav. If Bonds ever puts on a Cardinals cap, I’m done. I’ll just become a Brewers fan so I can still root against the Cubbies.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Apr 25, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fine
Bonds vs Mark McGwire.
Let the mental gymnastics of rationalization begin.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Apr 25, 2008 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beat me to the punch
but your post had a much wittier logical “SNAP”
by Ray Lankford on Apr 25, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK then.
Mark McGwire took Androstenedione. This was neither a banned baseball substance nor a perscrption drug. I worked at a gym in the late 90’s, and I will wager that most of the serious weightlifters there switched from protein supplements to Andro during the 2 or 3 years that I worked there. Hell, you could buy Andro at GNC. It was a widely marketed dietary supplement.
Anyhow, like I said, the point is that McGwire wasn’t half the asshole that Bonds is. He did not cause distracting media sideshows during the season (except for his performance on the field). Oh yeah, and he also wasn’t under FEDERAL INDICTMENT for perjury that might lead to jail time during the season. McGwire was a fine teammate and a nice person. What Bonds is doing is downright insulting us as fans. He is trying to deny that he ever used steroids wittingly. He is trying to tell us that his head and feet mysteriously grew by some supernatural force.
People screw up. I’m OK with that. Ank stopped taking the drugs. McGwire retired and admitted he took Andro. Step up and admit it, and people can move on. Just don’t insult me with your arrogance, Mr. Bonds. And PLEASE don’t play for my team.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Apr 25, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If that is what makes you feel better
by all means go with that.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Apr 25, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
-1 ...
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This argument is going no where
and I seriously doubt that anything anyone says will change your opinion—not just you, everyone has very strong feelings on the subject.
But for what its worth, you are really kidding yourself if you think McGwire only took Andro. For chrissakes he refused to answer questions regarding steroids in the Congressional hearing. I know – his constitutional right. But if I was being accused of taking steroids, and I hadn’t taken them, I would have been screaming: “I took the shit out of Andro but not Roids” instead of saying “I’m not here to talk about the past.
by Ray Lankford on Apr 25, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have a winner!!!
but you are right, this is going no where. My final word on the subject is that signing any player would not end my fanship of the Cardinals unless the guy was something more than your typical jackass. Bonds is just a jackass, guys, like a lot of MLB players, and some of the general population. He used drugs to make his muscles bigger, lied about it, etc. Like other people have said, the Cardinals have employed plenty of those guys in the past, and LaRussa has managed a ton of others.
And if you are taking a moral stand in your life, please choose something a bit more significant than Barry Bonds. That is all.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Apr 25, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I probably have WAY more important things to take a moral stand on.
I was just agreeing with Trav in his argument. I’m not making a moral judgement on what Bonds did at all. What he does is his business, until it effects his team. I think he would be a TERRIBLE signing, even if he did not use PED’s. If you do your research on him, Cardz, you will find that he really is something more than a typical jackass. I believe that some of our more statistically-oriented commenters get lost in the numbers sometimes, and forget that these are people that have to live together for the majority of their year. Bonds may very well hit several dingers, and he may walk a ton, but IMO the three-ring circus that he creates will be a HUGE drag on the rest of our somewhat inexperienced team.
BTW, and I swear I’m done after this one, Cardz, lay off the high-handed condescention. I never insinuated that I was taking a moral stand.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Apr 25, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't referring to you
with that particular part because I didn’t see you making that moral argument. I did question you losing your fanship over signing Bonds, we can just disagree on that. As far as my high-handed condescension, I am not the one who is condemning another human being that I do not know.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Apr 25, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 ...
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rick Ankiel never saw a doctor
he got a phony script from a mail-order doctor. He was busted as part of a pharmaceutical ring that involved online doctors writing scripts as part of online pharmacies distributing the stuff. Same goes for Troy.
Atleast Barry Bonds had sense enough to have the people at Balco test his blood and figure out what ratios would be safe and healthy for him.
Bonds also began taking HGH because of injuries. His first foray started because of an elbow injury and then was used because he had ZERO cartilledge left in his knee.
Listen, I think Bonds is scum but because he is somehow ‘more wrong’ than Glaus or Ankiel just doesn’t jive. If Glaus or Ankiel were making an assualt on the all-time HR record, do you think they’d be getting the free passes they have? Glaus and Ankiel got busted by the Feds and media and the baseball world noted it and moved on. Barry Bonds gets busted by the same 5 years ago and still, here we are. Lying before a grand jury is one thing. But what that has to do with baseball is beyond me.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 25, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball-wise, it would suck for the team if he got tossed in the Klink around September 15th or so.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Apr 25, 2008 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ankiel did not get busted by the feds
Ankiel did nothing illegal. It was not, and is still not, a violation of federal law for a person to take HGH . A few states have statutes against it, but Florida, where ankiel was when he accepted the shipments, is not one of those states. Ankiel’s “doctor”/pharmacy got busted, because it is illegal to prescribe HGH except in certain circumstances, and illiegal in NY only to prescribe drugs for someone without a physical exam, but Ankiel himself did nothing wrong according to the laws of the country and the laws of his state of residence.
Ankiel was the victim of a malicious smear campaign spearheaded by a company owned by the company that owns the Chicago Cubs. The individual in the Albany DA’s office who released the list of names to the media should be disbarred and/or in jail, and every member of the media who said “ankiel used illegal drugs” should be censured.
Glaus, on the other hand, DID use illegal drugs- anabolic steroid nandroline (deca-durabolin), which is illegal in both the US and Canada- and could go to federal “PMITA” prison if someone decided to prosecute him for it.
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Federal law bans the use of HGH for
non-specific uses, most notable for disease or rare medical conditions. I doubt very much Rick suffers from either.
The United States only in rare circumstances prosecutes the ‘users’ for using illegal substances. Possession, yes usually with intent to sell.
Rick’s “doctor” had his own history of, well, to be blunt, not being a very good doctor.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 25, 2008 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
Federal law bans the prescription of HGH. Not personal use. There have been several laws put before congress in the last few years that have tried to make general personal use illegal (search my previous posts for the exact statutes) but none of them passed.
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really
Can you show me where Dr. William Gogan has a history of not being a good Doctor?
by Evilfrog on Apr 25, 2008 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The $3 M he has paid in malpractice lawsuits
was the first redflag.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 25, 2008 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
$3M?
You’re going to have to supply a link for that. Because I believe you are thinking of the pharmacy that the drugs were ordered from. Dr. Gogan has had no disciplinary actions taken against him.
by Evilfrog on Apr 25, 2008 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it was just $2.7M
but it’s true.
link.
It’s also irrelevant to whether or not Ankiel did anything illegal. he didn’t, unless he sold the HGH to his teammates or something along those lines.
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well that sucks
I use ucomparehealthcare.com to investigate all the doctors I see. Can’t trust it now if it can’t pick up a $2.7 million dollar fine.
by Evilfrog on Apr 25, 2008 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rick Ankiel
Was prescribed HGH by Docotor William Gogan. An Orthopedic Surgeon in North Palm Beach. His doctor ordered the HGH from the pharmacy that was under the investagition. That doesn’t mean that all orders that the pharmacy fullfilled were illegal. There is only so many places you can get the stuff.
And it really isn’t a stretch to believe Ankiel actually went and seen a surgeon; who specializes in joint reconstruction; who lives within 15 miles from his home. And it’s not hard to believe that said surgeon would order the drugs from the closest supplier to him.
by Evilfrog on Apr 25, 2008 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
isn't that splitting hairs
it isn’t illegal to take HGH, but it is illegal to write the prescriptions? That just doesn’t make a whole helluva lot of sense. Of course this is our legal system we are talking about,so it isn’t supposed to make sense.
by mattyfrommo on Apr 25, 2008 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not illegal to write the prescriptions
if you have a histroy with working with the patient in person. The illegal part came in when people where getting the stuff from online clincs.
by Evilfrog on Apr 25, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is illegal to write a perscription for HGH use for off-label uses
those uses are dictated by Secretary of Health and Human Services. Those uses in adults are:
Accepted medical uses in adults include the treatment of the wasting syndrome of AIDS and hGH deficiency.
Maybe Rick had AIDS or a hormone deficiency. Who am I to know?
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/drugs_concern/hgh.htm
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 25, 2008 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the last paragraph
in that link spells it out. “hGH is not controlled under the Controlled Substances Act (CSA).”
The last sentence,
“In March 2007, a bill was introduced into the U.S. Senate to amend the CSA and to add hGH to schedule III.”
Is somewhat dishonest. They should also say that bill did not pass, or they should say “attempted to amend”, since it did not pass. Senator Schumer, the jerk trying to make hGH illegal, has a propaganda web page that talks about it too:
“Currently, simple possession of HGH is not a criminal offense.”
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HGH is covered under the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act
which makes the distribution or sale of it illegal for non-specific purposes.
You are right, simply possessing is not an illegal act.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 25, 2008 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this isn't totally true
A doctor can only prescribe HGH for certain medical conditions. Ankiel did not have any of these medical conditions. That much of what is being said is true, and what Dr Gogan did is certainly illegal. Dr Gogan could be prosecuted for it.
However, Ankiel’s possession of, and use of, HGH was NOT illegal. Rick Ankiel CANNOT be prosecuted for using HGH. Period. It doesn’t matter how he got the HGH, as long as he didn’t distribute it, he’s done nothing wrong.
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love Ank
I even have the T-shirt, but the legal use of HGH does not include letting baseball players use it in order to recover from an injury. Just because someone can get a prescription doesn’t mean it is legal.
by mattyfrommo on Apr 25, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wrong.
There is no federal law against the use of HGH. Some states have laws against it, but only a few, and not the one Ankiel lives in. Ankiel did nothing illegal.
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's illegal to essentially 'doctor shop' and get a perscription
for a substance under false pretenses.
Listen, I’m not trying to indict Ankiel to send him to federal prison, but it is extreme splitting of hairs to act as if Rick did nothing wrong.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 25, 2008 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you can say it was "wrong" or "immoral"
if that’s what you believe. But it wasn’t illegal, at least for Ankiel. The only one who did anything “illegal” is Gogan.
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fed Statutes
Agreed on the difference between illegal and immoral.
The relevant federal statutes are 21 U.S.C. §331 and 333. Prosecutions can be made for sale of steroids without a prescription or physician consultation, and for illegal possession, trafficking in HGH.
Also, it’s a bit dangerous to render judgment if someone has not gone through the adversarial system and had a vigorous defense. But sometimes the evidence speaks pretty loudly, cf. Clemens.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Apr 25, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what really bugs me
is that it isn’t just me defending Rick Ankiel. It’s the people in the media equating HGH with steroids, when they are very different, and calling HGH “illegal” when it isn’t. Sure, it’s splitting hairs, but I’m a libertarian by nature and it is shocking how willing people nowadays are to accept government intervention into their lives.
We did not elect the FDA. The link you provide, you quote "Secretary of Health and Human Services". Sounds very important, in a Kafka-esque kind of way, but who is that person? Did I vote for him? Why should he have the power to make decision that affect MY life?You can say “splitting hairs”, but the words that make up laws are important. The ability of the common man to KNOW what the laws say, and to have input into their construction, is important. And it’s flat out wrong to misrepresent what they say to sell newspapers, especially if it hurts someone who didn’t break the law.
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
My post did not mean that I thought Ank was guilty of anything illegal. I was trying to say just the opposite.
Anyway, I totally agree with you on the undesirability of media citing unnames sources that leak confidential doctor-patient information. I asked Roger Cossak (ESPN legal analysist) last year about this, but he seems to be ok with leaks.
I know that it might not seem important the leaking of prescription information of ballplayers because they are public figures. But they too have a family and loved ones and could really be hurt by a leak of info.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Apr 25, 2008 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow, weird bug
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never started this out saying what Rick did was illegal, immoral or
wrong. I said that he was “busted” by the Feds, by busted I meant “outed”, like if you got busted by your parents when you were a teenager for having sex in the backyard.
You aren’t going to jail but you’ve been found out.
I did, then, go on to say that it was illegal to use HGH, which is false in Florida but I also said that there is very rarely in investigation into the drug usage. If there was, they would have investigated on whether Rick had actually used the substance ONLY in Florida, or if he had taken his 12 month supply with him to other states while trying to comeback to the Cardinals, states which it would have been illegal to use it.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 25, 2008 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HL
when you posted you popular “40 acres post” I accused you doing the whole long post just to get a thread started to sign Bonds.But nobody picked up on your first selection of Bonds to solve all our problems but me. You were greatly offended by my accusation Now I know I was right.
by ridgesee on Apr 25, 2008 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're full of shit
I told you that a long time ago but you keep on beating this drum. That post was done in order of availibility. Free Agents, soon to be free agents, low value trades, then the big fish.
Carl Crawford would be my pick for finding a cleanup hitter, if you actually cared to know.
I can carry on two intelligent lines of thought. I’m not solely about cheerleading for one player over and over again.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 26, 2008 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can't prove it by me
and I.m not an asshole that goes around beating up Cardinal players to try to make a point.
by ridgesee on Apr 26, 2008 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moral outrage
There are a lot of reasons to not be in favor of signing Barry Bonds that have nothing to do with some sort of moral outrage about his use of performance enhancing drugs. His age & accompanying limited availability, his defense, contract, the resultant roster crunch (could be good and/or bad), his personality, the media storm, etc.
I know he does plenty of things that end up on the PRO side of the ledger, but I don’t think they are strong enough to escape the gravity well of his CONS.
That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.
by Solanus on Apr 25, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bonds is not very likeable
irrespective of his steroid use. i wouldn’t want him on the team either.
by lboros on Apr 25, 2008 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't WANT him on the team either
I would take him though. Bonds hitting behind Pujols makes me drool at the kind of season Albert would have,
I think Bonds is an ass, but I can deal with that. If he ends up being a cancer, just release him.
I just tend to agree with Hardcore, it would be worth the risk.
by mattyfrommo on Apr 25, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never forget
People went to JAIL because of Barry Bonds.
It is not just that he is a lying, selfish jerk and bad for the clubhouse
He is bad for everyone in the stadium and bad for baseball.
this is just something that can not be said about anyone else that used ‘roids.
by leftcoastfan on Apr 25, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
People didn't go to jail because of Bonds
they went to jail because of their own involvement with illegal activity, stuff that began long before Bonds ever considered getting on the juice. Hyperbole does not help a situation like this.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Apr 25, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
forgot to add "Yet"
Clemons is still under investigation as is Tejada.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 25, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clemens
in my opinion, is far, far worse than Bonds. Clemens flat out went to Congress and probably lied. Right out in the open, in front of the entire freaking planet, he went on one of the biggest stages possible IN THE WORLD and is now being investigated for perjury himself. That is degrees worse than Bonds, again, in my opinion, a guy who seemingly attempts to hide his arrogance in smaller circles around him.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Apr 25, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree he isn't likeable
but he has always been that way. He has always been a jerk, selfish, and arrogant. He has also always been able to contribute to a winning team. I think MLB players, for the most part, handle themselves in a professional manner and could handle the person that is Barry Bonds. As long as he hits, I want him in the lineup.
As long as the contract doesn’t allow Bonds to pull his prima donna crap, like 8 lockers and whatnot, I am fine with it.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
by cardzfan24 on Apr 25, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sniffing the Bonds glue again ...
are we Hardcore …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another "WOW" Pujols batting stat
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
14 5 8 2 0 2 2 1 0 0 571 .600 1.143 1.743
Above is what he has done when leading off an inning this year.
Bat him leadoff? j/k
Sorry I can’t get the numbers lined up.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 25, 2008 12:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Joel P
by the way as was debated in last nights thread…his web Gem was #1…
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Apr 25, 2008 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
3rd webgem of the week
for the Cards.
Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!
(now accepting applications)
by stltrav09 on Apr 25, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Imagine
Just think of how a:
3B brendan Ryan
SS Izturis/Miles
2B Kennedy/Miles
Will look when Troy needs a day off. Man, not a lot of pop.
How well do Kennedy/Ryan need to hit to help support a weak hitting Izturis and Miles? I figure Kennedy and Ryan have the most offensive potential, not that they are going be hitting 8 HR
by ICbirdfan on Apr 25, 2008 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Speezio really hurt the Cards
for the lack of “pop” on the bench, espeacially for 3b relief. His late departure didn’t give the Cards a chance to find a real replacement.
Glad Ryan is back.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 25, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe that Joe Mather can be the Spiezio type, playing both the corner infield and corner outfield spots. Brendan has to play every day at short, he brings a lot to the table and should thrive in that 9 hole. Kennedy and Miles is a stopgap til Hoffpauir is ready (September). It will be Hoffpauir and Kennedy next year. Izturis has gotta go away, peferably back to the Cubs
The only one who liked the Cardinals so much he became a St. Louis Cardinals football fan.
by coachnick39 on Apr 25, 2008 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hoff is playing 2b
And he still needs another year to bone up on his defence. As for Mather, I like him too but want to see what he’s like after he comes back from his injury.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 25, 2008 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I meant that it will be Hoff and AK platooning at 2B next year with Brendan playing SS. As long as nothing is too bad with Mather’s injury, I think that he will have a solid season and give us a lot of extra pop and versatility
The only one who liked the Cardinals so much he became a St. Louis Cardinals football fan.
by coachnick39 on Apr 25, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok, gotcha
Freese is good in Memphis, but I wouldn’t mind if the Cards could trade for Ian Stewart in the Rockies AAA team. He plays 3b and some at 2nd. Wouldn’t mind having him on our bench.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 25, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Freese has some pop
but I don’t know how ready he will be next year. I think that we have traded away a few nice parts here and there, so I wouldn’t mind seeing us try to develop and keep our guys. Mather was drafted as a SS, so he has infield hands. He even took ground balls at 3B this spring…not a bad option to be a backup until he cracks the outfield. We lose Kennedy and Glaus after next year if I am correct and by that time Freese should be good to go. Lets get the farm system stockpiled again.
The only one who liked the Cardinals so much he became a St. Louis Cardinals football fan.
by coachnick39 on Apr 25, 2008 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't mean to trade our farm...
We have some veterans to trade and Stewart is stuck because the Rockies have 3b and 2b pretty sewn up for a couple of years….. just thinking….. I like our prospects just fine. It’s because of this board that I’m now paying more attention to not only our farm system, but to other teams as well.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 25, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't trying to come down on the Stewart idea
I actually think its a really good one, who do we trade? I mean is he good enough to warrant a Thompson, or do we trade an outfielder? The versatility he would bring is good, and welcome over Izturis and Miles.
The only one who liked the Cardinals so much he became a St. Louis Cardinals football fan.
by coachnick39 on Apr 25, 2008 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's one of their top prospects
So Thompson, maybe Duncan and/or another pitcher (since I’m dreaming…Looper). Oh well. Should be a fun few years watching the young ones come up to the SHOW.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 25, 2008 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just leery
of trading Duncan. When he is right, he is a left handed hitter with 30 homer potential that no longer kills us in the outfield. Remember, the first half of the season last year Lil Dunc was probably our most consistent hitter. Maybe a Thompson, Looper and Stavinoha deal?
The only one who liked the Cardinals so much he became a St. Louis Cardinals football fan.
by coachnick39 on Apr 25, 2008 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
rockies
don’t need a left fielder with average (at best) defense when they have Matt Holliday out there. I don’t think Dunc can be an everyday center fielder (already occupied by their leadoff hitter – Taveras) or right (Brad Hawpe is offensively similar to Dunc and better defensively). They do need bullpen help though I think – many blown leads this year. I don’t know if bullpen help will be enough for Stewart though – if the Rockies don’t pick it up by the ASB, we will probably start to hear the Helton trade rumors starting again, and Stewert would make a pretty good first baseman.
by cdb on Apr 25, 2008 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I’m not for trading anyone just yet, not enough season to give up on guys with potential. Izturis and Miles on the other hand…
The only one who liked the Cardinals so much he became a St. Louis Cardinals football fan.
by coachnick39 on Apr 25, 2008 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I only thought of Duncan
so that Rockies can replace LH power (Stewart) with Duncan. Duncan can replace Helton at 1st better than Stewart whom I believe only played 3b and a little bit of 2nd.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 25, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duncan's ceiling is higher
than Ludwick’s and he’s younger than Ludwick so I think that we should trade Ludwick of any of the outfielders. Get what we can while there is value. I don’t believe he’s in the long term plans.
The only one who liked the Cardinals so much he became a St. Louis Cardinals football fan.
by coachnick39 on Apr 25, 2008 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Rockies view Stewart
as a future stud, their Evan Longoria, if you will. He may not be that good, but that’s how he’s viewed here. There is no way they would trade him for bullpen help only.
Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.
by TurdFerguson on Apr 25, 2008 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, its having Miles on the roster that kills us
without miles, we could have Ryan and, for example, Mather.
by FunkeeC on Apr 25, 2008 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miles at least gets the ball to roll slowly into the outfield to get on base a little. If Izturis could get a few hits every month I would agree, but until then, I’d rather have Miles filling in for Kennedy than Izturis. I wouldn’t mind them both going away though.
The only one who liked the Cardinals so much he became a St. Louis Cardinals football fan.
by coachnick39 on Apr 25, 2008 1:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Brendan
Ryan is clearly the middle infielder with the best potential. And I am pretty sure he’s just the best we have, period. At least in terms of providing immediate help. Kinda of low bar to jump over though.
Which leads me to my only concern…
If I am to take the rumblings about his cockiness and abrasive clubhouse personality seriously, and I probably should given his history, then the worst thing for his ego would be to compete against these guys. If it’s truly a part of his personality that everybody has been working on, the worst thing about this is that he has nobody around him to look up to. No mentor. And that could just serve to fuel the fire if there is indeed an issue there.
So it might be something worth noting, but still real glad to see him up. I really hope he runs with the opportunity he’s given here. Because the ceilings for the other guys are well established, and modest. Ryan can and should be better. Possibly an average middle infielder. Sounds like a backhanded compliment, but replacing bad with average gives about the same benefit as replacing average with very good. Ryan could help this team out a ton – there is that potential.
by Merry CRasmus on Apr 25, 2008 2:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
I hadn’t heard about Ryan’s personality problems, but it definitely fits with LaRussa’s complaints about Ryan playing young. Given the energy that the young guys have been providing, I’d hate to see a bad element depress that.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on Apr 25, 2008 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to clarify
This is based on mostly rumblings. There’s been some things in writing regarding frictions between some of the veterans and Brendan last year. Honestly I don’t know what exactly to make of all of it, when there was an segment of the veterans that were clearly not being the least bit professional in how they conducted themselves off the field. Maybe there needed to be some conflict there.
Goold alluded to his quirky behavior several times in his blogs. Supposedly they had Springer following him around in spring to sort of, ahem, show him the ropes. Or babysit, depending on how you want to spin. Plus he got kicked off his college team a few times.
So I guess at the least Brendan is kinda a strange cat. Probably needs a little more guidance than the average guy. Doesn’t necessarily make him a complete trainwreck in the clubhouse though. People also say he’s been working on how he handles himself. I do like the all out approach on the field.
My main point is that a young brash infielder who may have a little too much cockiness isn’t best served being taught needed lessons while competing for time with this crew. Kind of the catch 22 of the deal. The competition stinks, but yet he’d be well served to have a model for him to follow.
But overall I like him, and am glad he has made it up, and hope he strings a bunch more games like he did last night. That should make Tony’s decisions real easy, as far as middle infield.
by Merry CRasmus on Apr 25, 2008 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dan, Al, and Shannon make him sound more like the cocky kid type like you are talking about Crasmus.
Anyone else remember the guys talking about how Edmonds liked to pick on him? I remember a story about him getting his uniform frozen because he showed up late for a game.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Apr 25, 2008 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Irony in Edmonds
It’s a bit ironic that JEd was the one picking on BR. I think one of the reasons the Angels parted with JEd so easily was that he was reportedly bad in the clubhouse. Long before the deal, there were always rumors that JEd was going to be traded. I remember Angels fans being really pissed at the trade because JEd never appeared to be a jerk to the fans, maybe he was a bit flashy in the field.
I wonder if the frozen uniform is just part of rookie hazing like Dodger’s Chan Ho Park’s suit being cut apart. But let’s hope that if there was something there last year that it dissappeared with the departure of our vets (JEd, GB, Spiez and Rolen). I can’t imagine Eck and Gooch being annoyed at BR.
Speaking of JEd and totally going on a tangent… Some at VEB have suggested a total blow up of the team in re-building and playing lot’s of young ‘ems. My fear is that a lack of veteran leadership on the team will hamper the development of young players. When I think back of 90’s Angels teams with some really good young players who came up together: JEd, Garret Anderson, Tim Salmon, J.T. Snow, Percival… It took them a loooong time before the team got good. So my take is that a good mixture of young and old is a better strategy for building young ‘ems. So it would worry me if our position players consisted of only three vets: 5, Yadi (quasi-vet) and Glaus. I am in no way defending Iz2, AK and Miles being on the team. Sigh…
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Apr 25, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+++++1 ....
this team need to retain veteran leadership … going young is a very good strategy … keep costs down and leverage rookie/near-rookie explosiveness … but you are ALWAYS going to need guys like Pujols, Glaus, Springer, Carpenter around to ‘ground’ the younger players … an appropriate mix is needed … and I think we have it (excluding a couple anyway, like Ickturis and Miles) ...
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again ...
who gives a SH*T about personality problems … this is MLB … as long as the guy is not a club house cancer, or causing disturbances to the team off the field, there is no issue … I’ve never heard anything like that … when you hear the guy talk (or anyone else, for that matter), it’s just the opposite … the guy is just a rookie … he’s got quirks … Dizzy Dean did too … and he ended up contributing quite a bit … guys have ADD … everyone is not a rocket scientist … who cares … just shut up, and let the kid play …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 ...
No one is saying Ryan is the second coming … he is league average or maybe/probably a little better … but don’t dangle Ickturis in front of us … he can’t out hit most pitchers … he is not a CARDINAL quality SS …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thinking a little outside the box
We all have noticed that there is a great lack of production coming from the 6-9 slots in the order. Instead of changing, the personal… lets change where they are hitting.
Skip – RF
Kennedy – 2B
5 – 1B
Dunc – LF
Glaus – 3B
Rick – CF
Yadi – C
Pitcher
Ryan – SS
There are a few things you want to keep the consistent, but let us be honest, there is not much reason to keep power in the 2 slot, if there is a lack of power elsewhere. Kennedy has been able to get on base pretty well this season so far, he will see more pitches to hit with “5” behind him. The big thing we want out of the 2 slot is to be on base for “5”. Duncan is hitting better than Rick right now so Dunc gets clean up. Rick is a better hitter than Yadi so the 6 hole is already better. Yadi has to play so you put him in front of the pitcher (nowhere else to hit him). Ryan, hopefully, gives us a better “second leadoff man” then Izturis did.
A couple of things this does not solve:
1. The legiondary black hole of our clean up spot (no matter who is there, they don’t hit).
and
2. facing lefties (Kennedy and Duncan don’t play against lefties). Maybe Ryan goes to 2 and Miles takes 9, Rick goes to 4 and Ludwick gets the 6
by Stan and Slaughter on Apr 25, 2008 2:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thinking the same
about clogging first base for Albert. Using last night’s lineup for lefties you could put Barton was in the #4 slot and Ludwick in #6. Puts speed on in front of Glaus’ double and might diminish dp possibilities if the opponents choose to put Albert on first.
by ubeddie on Apr 25, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know if it was on purpose...
but spelling “legendary” “legiondary” was pretty funny… a “legion” of cleanup hitters.
"...but If I can do some damage and help my team win, I'm going to stay in there" -Albert
by BigMOman on Apr 25, 2008 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After doing a little study on The Importance of Batting Orders recently ...
I’m not sure it would help … however … it sounds logical … and I’d be willing to try it … and, it sounds like a line-up Tony will get around to trying … I think he’ll do ANYTHING rather than move Albert out of #3 and putting Glaus in #2 … so, we may very well see your line-up before long … I’d be interested in seeing what it produces …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
phantom double play
Goold has a nice article on the phantom double play from Wednesday’s game, where Reyes threw the ball to an empty second base, preventing what could have been a double play and leading to a three run inning. Sounds like all parties interviewed point the finger at Anthony, though all understand that there were many other oppotunities to win that game.
by cdb on Apr 25, 2008 2:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thought it was all three of them
at fault. First is Reyes for not checking to see whom would be covering. Then Miles/Kennedy for not checking with each other AND with Reyes. The two veteran infielders should know better than what they showed on that play. That said, it’s over and done with…. you could go crazy with “what ifs” in this game.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 25, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 ...
I thought it was all their faults … it was a complete mis-play … it happened … it’s over … move on … last word … it was Miles who wasn’t on second when he should have been … but, he was definately moving there … Anthony should have thrown it to him anyway … they would have at least got the lead runner … but again, in the final analysis … they all screwed up …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent analysis, AZ. Given that, despite the Cardinals’ fast start, this is a rebuilding year (though the Cardinals won’t admit it), it does not seem likely that they will trade for a veteran middle infielder. I hope they don’t actually (even though I wanted them to keep Renterria and Grudzielanek but that’s an old story and that was when the Cardinals were strong contenders).
I think the most realistic possibility is that the Cards will trade in July before the deadline, for one or more high quality middle infield prospects who are near ML ready. By July the Cards should have a surplus in the bullpen, when J. Kinney and T. Johnson and others are healthy and Perez or Motte or Politte or others are ready for promotion.
There’s also a chance the Cards will have surplus starting pitching after Carp returns (though he may go to the pen, like Matt Morris did when he returned from injury): if Mulder (if he’s effective) or Clement (looking more and more like a bust) perform effectively, then the Cards will have Wainwright, Lohse, Pineiro, Mulder (or Clement), and Carpenter, plus Looper, Wellemeyer, and Thompson. McClellan could be moved into a starting role, too.
Another possibility is for the Cards to go all out in their rebuilding by being alert for any chance to trade Kennedy to a contender desperate for MI help because of an injury (the only hope for trading Adam, given his contract). Or trade Glaus to a contender and bring up Freese. Trade Glaus and Kennedy both and bring up Barden as well as Freese to see what they can do, along with Brendan Ryan. Izturis is still only 28, while Miles and Kennedy are over 30. Maybe Izturis will end up replacing Miles as the whipping boy for those who miss the glory days of supersubs like Jose Oquendo and Placido Polanco….
In any case, I don’t think we’ll see any big improvement in the middle infield before July, if then.
by CardsWin on Apr 25, 2008 3:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree ...
if this is a re-building team, then it’s a re-building+ team … or, re-building with a chance … we just have too many weapons … yeah, their young … yeah, their unproven … but this is a GOOD team … I don’t know if we’ll win the division … the Cubs are good too … but this team WILL compete … I can see moves made to improve the team in May/June … and, I can see, if all things go well, the pitching really solidifying in an August time frame … our offense is potentiallly good enough, and our pitching is potentially good enough, to keep us in the thing until then … call me optomistic; but, I think this is NOT a rebuilding year, and the team will contend …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a firm belief
That you should not have anyone on the roster that can’t be counted on to get at least a sacrifice fly. There are two in the MIF. That, in my book, is unacceptable.
by mattyfrommo on Apr 25, 2008 4:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Anyone got free time on their hands?
I was thinking about it during my morning drive and LaRussa seems to like ‘damage’ from his #2 slot in the order. However, there have been a few times this year with Barton and Skippy starting that TLR has had to implement a more traditional ‘dual speed’ in the first two slots in front of Pujols. Alternately, with his Crazy 8s lineup, that gives 3 burners in front of Pu.
My point is, what effect does this have on the teams offense to have a more ‘traditionally’ constructed lineup?
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 25, 2008 4:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
woo
yeah, tough call. I personally would like to see the more 80’s style speed in front of Pu, but it could be a nostalgic factor. It is really difficult to criticize larussa because he seems to pull off a lot of things despite being unconventional in many ways. But with the pitcher in the 8 spot, I don’t see much reason to have pop ahead of Pujols. Or maybe that’s his reasoning, since there will be two relatively good on base guys already before the #2 spot in the lineup. my feeling is that LaRussa is having the time of his life with this team since there’s so many possibilities.
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 25, 2008 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thought this was interesting...
...and did a little quick and dirty research on it. Basically I looked at a sampling of the best offenses over the last fifty years and then studied the batting orders. Probably too small of a sample size (I looked at 22 offenses evenly spaced from 1956 to 2006 that led their league in Road Runs per Game) but I think that conventional wisdom probably holds. With a few notable exceptions like Steve Finley (96 Pads) Felipe Alou (66 Braves) and A-Rod (96 Mariners) the 1 and 2 spots in the order did not feature bangers. Usually at least one of the two spots had somebody with over the league average in OBP, and often both did. Additionally, I noticed that while having a really fast guy could help, it was not a prerequisite. The biggest thing I noticed was that since the 60 ’s, the best offense have a lot better hitters at the top of the lineup. The best offenses then were built around power in the middle of the order and the 1, 2 and 8 spots were usually bad hitters that could field well or run really fast. Now the best lineups are much more likely to have two guys that get on base and run a little bit in front of the mashers. Coming back to the discussion at hand, I think the best idea for this team is to put OBP guys (Barton is my fave for this, don’t really know who else on the team could fit the bill) in front of Albert and bunch some more power behind him. So maybe Stan and Slaughter’s idea above has some merit in regards to dropping Ank in the order a little bit.
by moser34 on Apr 25, 2008 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Line-up for tonight
1. Skip Schumaker, RF
2. Rick Ankiel, CF
3. Albert Pujols, 1B
4. Chris Duncan, LF
5. Troy Glaus, 3B
6. Adam Kennedy, 2B
7. Yadier Molina, C
8. Braden Looper, P
9. Bredan Ryan, SS
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 25, 2008 5:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I like this lineup a lot
Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!
(now accepting applications)
by stltrav09 on Apr 25, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't...
Putting a guy with a .315 or so OBP in the #2 hole doesn’t make sense, especially when you have one of the best hitters in baseball hitting #3.
I think they should bench Ankiel for a while, let Ludwick play. He’s got an OBP of close to .500 vs righties. Maybe it’s just a hot streak or what, but wait until he cools down to sit him (and while he has cooled down of late, it’s been againest lefties, really)
Start Ludwick vs righties (maybe this will work)
by DiscoJer on Apr 25, 2008 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel will probably come around ...
I think it’s OK to put him out there yet … he’s hitting the ball hard, just not getting them to fall … he’s too valuable to scrub yet … and unfortuneately, Ludwick’s not on fire anymore right now … I like them both, but I at least see starting Ank right now … if he continues to slump, Tony will switch them out …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Home/Away splits
for Ankiel are much more favorable at Busch. (Small sample size warning….)
BA / OBP / SLG / OPS
Home – .293 .341 .585 .926
Away – .189 .286 .324 .610
2007 data as well
Home – .328 .373 .623 .996
Away – .261 .303 .486 .790
by ubeddie on Apr 25, 2008 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 ... I like this line-up ...
go do some damage …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would like to see
Ankiel and Kennedy flipped though as someone mentioned earlier. It might be a good change… Ankiel might just pop out of the slump if he sees a different spot and Kennedy will probably get better pitches to hit. just glad to see Brendan Ryan back in the magical #9 slot
Ankiel is Jesus!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 25, 2008 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im stuck at work
Because or DNS server broke. A vender emailed us saying he has 4 box tickets to game if we want them. This sucks
Good line up though.
by Evilfrog on Apr 25, 2008 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Troy Glaus has a .920 OPS and 2 HR's against Chicon ...
maybe tonight will be the night for #1 … don’t know about you, but I’m getting tired of waiting for that monkey to come off his back … Pujols and Duncan has hit homers of this guy and have good numbers … even Kennedy has banged him up a little … so, let’s see how it goes …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even better than our lineup
is the fact that Houston has Kaz Matsui and Erstad hitting 1 and 2. Nothing like giving Looper a head start to the game.
by FunkeeC on Apr 25, 2008 6:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They both have good numbers against Looper in EXTREMELY small sample sizes ...
so, I’m with you … I think it will work against them … let’s just hope we see the 3-0 Looper tonight, not the 3-1 version … Loop needs to get consistent …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, What is the solution?
I have thought the thing to do is wait and see. On the 12th I wrote a fanpost on this subject. There are options of course, but I said lets wait. At the time Kennedy and Miles were both in the low .200’s in batting ave. The rest of their stats were just as bad. Well, Ryan has only had two games now so, I guess we still have to wait. On thing for sure I can no longer defend Miles. I only really stuck up for him cause I felt he was getting more than his fair share of crap. Now I think he is just too week, and needs to be replaced. Hoff is not tearing things up in AAA either. He did impress a lot of people last year. What if he was just a flash in the pan? I did not expect him the be a starter, but I did think he could take Miles’ spot. I am beginning to wonder. So how about Ryan Rayburn in Detroit? I know he has played a lot of outfield lately, but he has played 2B and 3B. He has some pop, and I think would be more versitile on the bench then Miles. Does anybody else perfer him over Miles? I also don’t think he would be very expensive. Lets asume for a moment that Ryan starts a few more games at SS and earns the starting job. What to do about Cesar? I don’t think this team can afford to carry an all glove no stick back up. The Cards will need some one who can pinch hit, play SS, and 3B, and start now and then. Brandon Wood is some one I have been excited about for a year or two now. He can’t seam to make the Angels 25 man roster, but seams to have what we need. I guess the question is what do we have that the Angels need? So I guess I am saying we keep AK and Ryan as starters, let Miles and Izturis go, and trade for Ryan Rayburn and Brandon Wood to fill roles ont he bench.
by nybirdfan on Apr 26, 2008 8:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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