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Wrong Up The Middle

The Cardinals were faced with a conundrum this past offseason with the free agency of their leadoff hitter and primary SS of the last 3 years David Eckstein. Add to that Adam Kennedy's injury plagued 2007 and it was apparent that the players the Cardinals had intended to be key everyday players last year hadn't really lived up to expectations and weren't great bets moving forward. Change was imminent.

The off season brought news of Aaron Miles being non-tendered and then re-signed and Cesar Izturis being plucked from free agency after watching his career collapse over the previous seasons. Brendan Ryan, who had filled in adequately for Eckstein, was left in the utility role again as the Cardinals attempt to see what kind of production they can squeeze out of their veterans.

So far, the returns aren't very good.

Cesar Izturis - .186/.333/.237 - 59 PAs

Adam Kennedy - .315/.367/.333 - 54 PAs

Aaron Miles - .295/.354/.318 - 44 PAs

That's the batting lines as of around 9:00pm last night for our primary middle infielders. Do you notice anything about them in particular? Their OBP is higher than their slugging in each instance. Slappy singles hitters who take a few walks creates that effect but is that maintainable moving forward.

Major League hitters need a certain level of power in order to keep pitchers honest. If they don't have it, they probably aren't going to last too long in the majors. Pitchers will start pumping fastballs down the heart of the plate and letting their defense take care of the rest. If the worst that can happen is a player gets a single, why bother finessing the situation.

Izturis can't seem to buy a hit as of late but Adam Kennedy and Aaron Miles both have respectable batting averages. You'd think I'd lay off them and pick on Izturis but you'd be wrong. Izturis is running into some BABIP bad luck so his batting average ought to regress toward the mean (think mid-.200s). The other two batters are doing something that seems uncommon -- hitting well and walking but hitting for no power. All three players appear to be on their way to at least 200PAs so let's use that as a baseline for historical comparison.

There were about 3100 player seasons from 1997-2006 of 200 or more plate appearances. Now let's start to apply some filters. There were less than 15% of those seasons where a player posted an ISO (slugging percentage minus batting average -- a better measurement of power than just SLG) less than .100. That tells us it really isn't common to see these players even survive the in the league long enough or receive enough of a role to get that many PAs. But this is the Cardinals run by Tony LaRussa and he likes to mix and match and get his bench players plenty of plate appearances. But even more uncommon is that there was less than 5% of those 3100 seasons where a player had an OBP higher than their slugging percentage. That number drops to under 4% when you combine the two filters (ISO < .100 and OBP>SLG).

So what our middle infield is doing is uncommon. I'd suspect, without looking at the list of players that it's comprised mostly of 2B, SS and catchers (Jason LaRue fits these criteria as well) but we're still talking about a small segment of the baseball community that's capable of putting up these numbers. If you look at the OPS of those players 75% (of that 4% that Kennedy and Miles currently fit into in) had an OPS under .700 -- not good. So only 1% of the players from 1997-2006 who received 200 plate appearances posted an OPS over .700, with an ISO < .100 and an on base percentage greater than their slugging.

That may seem like I've stacked the deck against our middle infield when looking at the numbers (given the number of filters I've applied) but I'm trying to point out how hard it is to have a good season when you are hitting the way Kennedy, Miles and, to a lesser extent, Izturis are hitting. We've seen some turnover in our middle infield but it's a massive weakness offensively and the few things that are going right for them now (taking walks) are, historically, unprecedented over the long term. Giving more playing time to Brendan Ryan or perhaps replacing one of Kennedy/Miles with Jarrett Hoffpauir (although he hasn't displayed the requisite power in Memphis with an ISO of .076 right now) could help but these are all marginal offensive players or marginal upgrades. The team would be wise to try and cobble together some kind of deal with their seeming excess in the outfield and on the mound to try and make a deal at either SS or 2B because things could get worse in a hurry. It's the most glaring weakness for the Cardinals right now and there doesn't appear to be any internal improvements available in the near term.

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Most Feared Hitter

Good post.

On the complete opposite end of the hitting spectrum, ESPN has a story about the “most feared hitter in baseball” as voted by the managers. Guess who?

"...but If I can do some damage and help my team win, I'm going to stay in there" -Albert

by BigMOman on Apr 25, 2008 8:43 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

my bad

I guess using html was a little too advanced for me!

"...but If I can do some damage and help my team win, I'm going to stay in there" -Albert

by BigMOman on Apr 25, 2008 2:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Well Done

Good job, Az. You have put in numbers exactly what I’ve tried to explain to people about our middle infielders for a while now. I’ll just have to send them the link from now on.

by roarke on Apr 25, 2008 8:46 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

The middle infield is bad?

Whoa! Who knew? Who could have predicted that? I am flabbergasted! (/sarcasm)

THT runs a weekly article called the Pujols Awards. First of all, that’s pretty darn cool. Albert is recognized as such a nice charitable guy that he gets mentioned as the role model. Secondly, this weeks article contains a nice blurb about two ex-Cards: Suppan and Percival.

by RedbirdRay on Apr 25, 2008 8:57 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

more SB problems?

I wonder if there are more SB problems? BigMOman’s link didn’t work right. I entered “Pujols Awards” as a link to the article I mentioned and it didn’t work either. I’ll just throw it up long style here to make sure it works:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-pujols-awards-week-16/

by RedbirdRay on Apr 25, 2008 8:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

giving luke scott a luis

is just wrong. Ain’t nuttin’ wrong with that..

Props for Jeff Suppan…

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 1:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Agree wholeheartedly

No way that Miles and Kennedy can keep up those lines. This is an area that needs to be upgraded not just for this season but the future as well.

by indakind on Apr 25, 2008 8:58 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Is it reasonable

to think that Cesar will begin to get more luck and get his average up into the mid .200s but not maintain his walk rate, causing his OBP to fall to his career levels? Cesar with a .250 avg, .305 OBP, .320 SLG just looks inevitable. Where is CardsWin pimping Izturis now?

Something needs to be done about this. Our middle infield is so atrocious that we cannot win a division title with them. There are just too many black holes right now to support consistent offensive production. It is also crazy to me, and to many of you, why we keep signing some of these guys when we have players who can do the same thing for a fraction of the cost.

Hopefully some moves are made, roles become more clearly defined, and some deadweight is DFAed and we stop giving roster spots to stopgap players.

I am extremely encouraged about this start. It just doesn’t seem sustainable.

"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols

by cardzfan24 on Apr 25, 2008 9:01 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Slappies

The influx of slappies to the middle infield began with David Eckstein.

David Eckstein’s ISO with the Cardinals:

2005 .294 BA / .395 SLG / .101 ISO
2006 ..292 BA / .344 SLG / .058 ISO
2007 .309 BA / .382 SLG / .073 ISO

Only one of those seasons, 2006, did Eckstein post an OBP (.350) higher than his SLG % (.344). However, Eckstein is doing the same thing in this very young season, posting a .337 OBP to top his .321 SLG through 21 games.

With Miles and Izturis, we were never going to get a +.700 OPS. Grit has never done it in a season where he had more than 9 ABs. Izturis has only done it once, in 2004, and nobody reading this needs me to tell them that this Izturis is not of the ‘04 vintage. What’s more, his BA may see an uptick, but his OBP will likely continue its precipitous fall to his career norm of .297. Cesar Izturis is the proverbial Little League No. 9 hitter where you pray for a walk or a HBP so that he doesn’t kill a rally.

For me, the jury is still out on AK, but I fear for the worst. His OPS went from .757 in ‘04 to .724 in ‘05 to .718 in ‘06. So, lets give ‘im a three-year contract. Last year, his offense fell off of a cliff, as we all know, when he posted a .572 OPS in an injury-shortened season. His walk rate, so far, is not that far off of career levels. However, his doubles are nowhere to be found. Maybe he’ll heat up with the St. Louis weather; maybe he won’t. Time will tell.

If I’d have told you that we’d have an OBP from our secondbasemen of .372, good for fifth in all of MLB, at the beginning of this season, who wouldn’t have taken it? Our OPS ranks 12th in baseball for the position, which isn’t bad, but not great. Right now, we are operating on a best-case-scenario for that platoon with the possible icing on the secondbasemen cake being AK ripping a few doubles.

As for SS, Izturis has to go. There is no reason to believe that he will do anything at the plate to warrant his being regularly pencilled in at SS. Our SS OPS is 23rd, a little bit ahead of Colorado (wonder how long that’ll last?). The Miles/Izturis cocktail there is unacceptable. Thank goodness we’ve paged Dr. Ryan.

An infield can handle one slick-fielding slappy, but two severely disadvantage a team, particularly a National League team. We need some pop to come from one of the two slots. Right now, our best bets are (1) Ryan; and (2) AK (although not a good bet).

by bgh on Apr 25, 2008 9:04 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Hopefully

Tony will actually put Ryan in and not let him rot on the bench. The kid needs a chance to prove himself. Why continue to let an open wound fester in the lineup? Ryan at least has some upside while Cesar is all used up.

by RabidBuffalo on Apr 25, 2008 9:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Great post, Azruavatar ... the glaring weakness on the team is Middle Infield ...

and their production in the 7 and 9 slots are killing us … but, it was so predictable even during ST … a move needs to be made to as soon as possible to shore up these deficiencies … jeesh, Izturis is being out-hit by 66% of all PITCHERS in the league … it’s miserable …

Also, THANK YOU!, bgh, for the link to ESPN’s team stats page … I didn’t know you could split it by position, batting order, etc … a very good post …

A few thoughts on yesterday’s game …

Joel Pineiro proved two things yesterday: 1) the Cards brought him back 2 weeks early, and 2) he can still pitch … that was a gem … a FIGS score of 69 is second best of the season … only Wainwright’s 71 gem on 4/10 is better … let’s certainly hope that was a sign of things to come, and not a ‘lucky’ start … this rotation certainly needs another bolstering agent at this point … only 10 of our last 17 starts have scored FIGS of 56 or better, after the hot start … that means in the last 17 games, the staff has 10 good starts and 7 bad ones … let’s hope Piniero, who contributed 2 of those clunkers, continues adding to the right column …

Also, on Pineiro … after his highlight-reel defensive play of the year last night, and after Troy let that ball by him one or two plays later (I’m not knocking Troy … his defense has been pretty good this year, better than I hoped), do you think Joel went over to him and said, “No … you’re supposed to kick it!” ...

Isn’t it nice to have a REAL MLB shortstop playing for us again? ... how re-freshing was it to watch Brendan Ryan go 2-3 with a BB to boot after watching Ickturis’s crap the last couple of weeks? ... I know one of the hits could have been ruled an error; but, the kid just flat out makes things happen when he plays … with his speed, luck, or whatever … I absolutely love to watch him play … he brings a certain amount of energy to the game the team lacks when he’s not around … and how about the highlight-reel pick he had? ... I remember thinking “Cesar never would have come up with that one”, at the time … I hope Brendan gets A LOT of starts at SS … he is clearly the better player … I waiting now for Tony to say to a reporter, “Izturis will have to prove he can still play to re-gain his starting position on this team” ... I’m not holding my breath on that one …

Last observation … We left 23 men on base last night … because we scored 6 runs and Joel did his thing, it didn’t seem to hurt … but this is definately a trend … so far this month, we have 14 games where we have left 15 or more runners on base … in our 8 losses, we left more than 20 on three times … We are currently averaging 4.7 runs per game, but the predictors I am using say we should be averaging closer to 6.0 … I don’t know what our team average is with RISP, but it needs to improve … we’re leaving too many guys on base … azruavatar’s comments on the middle infield probably has a lot to do with it …

Now, let’s kick some Astro butt at home … bounce back tonight, Loop …

Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...

by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 1:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

LOB

Leaving runners stranded is a tremendous concern of mine. The games we lose seem to be the function of missed opportunities (rather than a lack of opportunities). Our .260 BA with RISP is middle-of-the-pack, #14 in MLB. Our Slugging with RISP is not good, .382 (#20 in MLB), which gives the Cards an ISO of .119. We have the 4th most ABs with RISP in baseball, but only the 7th most RBI. 11 of our 17 HRs have come with the bases empty.

Perhaps leveraging the early high OBP of a Kennedy in the #2 slot would create an occupied first base more often when Pujols comes up? This would also allow us to stack those holes behind Pujols with threatening lumber-Duncan, Glaus, Ankiel, Ludwick-and could help to drive up our performance with RISP and our run totals.

by bgh on Apr 25, 2008 3:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

+1 ...

Thanks for the extra RISP/ISO stats, bgh … I was too lazy to look them up earlier … .260 … 14th … sounds about right … those figures need to improve and I think will improve … either by improved production from within (we have the talent to have better numbers) or by trade … I hope we improve our 2B position with some pop …

Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...

by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 6:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I thought Ryan

looked good last night both at the plate and in the field. I thought he looked good in ST. In fact, I have not seen Ryan look bd since he came up last year. I think it is time to really see what level of play he is capable of sustaining.
I suspect he might be as good as anything we can trade for without giving up too much.

by ridgesee on Apr 25, 2008 9:14 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Glaus

is the one more likely to get albert hurt with one of his side armed throws. I don’t izturis has thrown that well either ..lot of low throws.

by ridgesee on Apr 25, 2008 11:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Kennedy

already caused one collision from a bad throw for Albert this year.

by RedbirdRay on Apr 25, 2008 11:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Thinking about the same thing yesterday.

I mentally ranked the four options as follows:
defensively: 1.Izturis 2. Ryan 3. Kennedy 4. Miles
offensively: 1. Ryan 2. Kennedy 3. Miles 4. Izturis
The conclusion I reached from this exercise was that Ryan has to start, whether at second or ss. My preference would be for Izturis at ss and Ryan at second. As bgh says above an infield can handle one slick-fielding slappy, but not two. I just feel they need + defense at ss, and that Izturis is the best of the bunch for that. Hopefully azruavatar is correct and his offense will pick up.

by vinniefromjersey on Apr 25, 2008 9:20 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

I don't like platoon teams that much

I know some platooning can be effective. Casey Stengel used platooning with good effect the whole time he managed the yankees but it was mostly with power hitting outfielders and the Cards seem to be getting production from outfield mix and match now but the middle infield is going to have to be settled in somehow.

by ridgesee on Apr 25, 2008 9:26 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Effectivenss of Platooning

I am sure it’s been brought up before at VEB but Retrosheet has a good (but dated) article entitled “The Effectivenss of Platooning” by David Smith.

Here is the site.

He examines the “handedness advantage” derived from the direction of the breaking of the ball and the release pt. of the pitcher. The article talks a lot about switch hitting which is not too applicable to our current situation. But we do have non-switch hitting platooning with our outfield and to a lesser degree with a possible platooning infield with lefty Kennedy. It seems like TLR has put platooning to good use this season as the outfield is doing pretty well, not withstanding Ank’s mini slump.

But back to Azru’s point on wrong up the middle… Azru examined MIF independent from the rest of the lineup. So from the perspective of the overall productivity of an entire lineup, could a combination of high OBP+low ISO MIF possibly work if the SLG comes from the rest of the lineup? i.e. MIF’s get on base, and others get them home? I don’t remember anyone complaining about Eck’s low ISO when Gruds, El Hombre, and Walker were driving him home. Just a thought. I know ideally we would want high ISO everywhere.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Apr 25, 2008 11:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

The problem isn't just isolated power

it’s also that these guys’ OBP is dependent on them slapping singles since their walk rates are historically mediocre/low. Thus, the OBP will regress to the mean over time, while our power hitters repeatedly get pitched around.

by silent_bob on Apr 25, 2008 12:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Stand corrected

Agreed. I think Azru’s point is especially valid because MIF’s lack of power will affect negatively the rest of the lineup. Also the lack of speed adds to the slapping problem.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Apr 25, 2008 12:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

What's are options?

What is our options that we can do? I am hoping on the fact the Dodgers fall out of it fast and want to make some kind of trade for Rafael Furcal. SS and 2B is the positions I have no problem the Cardinals over pay for.

by FlimtotheFlam on Apr 25, 2008 9:29 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Furcal's contract

How many years does Furcal have left on his contract?

by roarke on Apr 25, 2008 9:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Furcal

The Dodgers are more likely to extend Furcal than trade him, which could open the door for a Chin-Lung Hu trade, who’s not too shabby himself.

"because at the end of the day they still are the Chicago Cubs"

by rockin the red on Apr 25, 2008 11:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Last Year

This is the last year of the contract and he is getting paid $13 mil

by FlimtotheFlam on Apr 25, 2008 9:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Options

Brent Lillibridge, Chin-Lung Hu, Jed Lowrie all come to mind… Michael Young is an option but an expensive one at that – he’s due $80 over 5 years after this season.

"because at the end of the day they still are the Chicago Cubs"

by rockin the red on Apr 25, 2008 11:23 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

that is,

$80 million over 5 years… sorry

"because at the end of the day they still are the Chicago Cubs"

by rockin the red on Apr 25, 2008 11:23 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Young shouldnt be an option

a not too good defensive SS who is signed to a way expensive contract for his decline years.

by FunkeeC on Apr 25, 2008 12:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

OT but...

I was puttering around on www.hardballtimes.com today and noticed that Troy Glaus is currently 1st among all 3rd basemen in Revised Zone Rating and tied for 6th in out of zone plays, not bad for a guy who people were a little worried about defensively. Now if he can just turn a few of those doubles into dingers…

by mikedallas45 on Apr 25, 2008 9:37 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Also

Izturis is 2nd among SSers and Ankiel is 3rd among CFers, fun with small sample sizes!

by mikedallas45 on Apr 25, 2008 9:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I'm having fun

tracking his doubles vs the MLB record of 67. With 11 in 23 games, he’s on pace for 77.5 as of now. He’s also got 5 games in a row with at least one double, but I’m not sure how to find that record.

It’s not as fun as watching pujols chase bonds/wilson in ‘06, but it’s what we’ve got…

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Nice job seeing it as glass half FULL

Personally, I would be sad to see Troy break that doubles record…since it would invariably mean that, just like we’ve seen so far, most of those doubles should have been homeruns…but came up just short.

Here’s hoping he keeps hitting doubles, but starts replacing at least SOME of them with round-trippers one of these days…

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Apr 25, 2008 4:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Josh Barfield + Brent Lillibridge = MI solved

It might not be easy to get these two, but these two would instantly take us from the worst MI in baseball to a young, athletic one with room to improve, IMO….they’ve both got good defensive skills and speed. And they can’t be any worse at the plate…..

The Braves’ pen is brutal. Maybe we can put together something of interest (Thompson + someone else?). Meanwhile, Barfield is at Triple-A for the Indians. They’re looking for OF and bullpen help (Skip + a P?). The worst these teams can say is no, right?

Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.

by cardsfanindenver on Apr 25, 2008 9:48 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

we really match up well with the Indians

I talked about this in Harcore’s “40 acres” thread, which seems to have run its course, but with Peralta (26) and Asdrubal Cabrera (22) up the middle they are pretty much set for a while and have some very, very good MI prospects in the minors. They are desperate for relief pitching- borowski is done imo- and MLB-caliber outfielders. Adam Kennedy (88 OPS+) is currently hitting almost as well as their entire outfield (90 OPS+). Dellucci is off to a good start, but he’s 34, not as good as he has been playing, and useless against lefties, and Gutierrez/Michaels are just flat out awful. Sizemore is the only thing keeping them above water, and he is slumping so far this year.

It’s pretty ironic that we got two of our current OF surplus from them for free (ludwick, as a minor league free agent, and Barton as a rule 5). If we could turn one of our outfielders or relievers (franklin?) into one of their SS prospects, or even Peralta (obviously that would cost more) it would solve our problem in one fell swoop. Peralta needs to be moved to third eventually, but can still play SS well enough to get us through the Glaus era and give Kozma time to develop.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 2:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

we could match up with the Braves too

They’re going to be set at MI for years with Johnson and Escobar. The Braves’ top two relievers are on the DL, so they could use the help there. Duncan might interest them. He could play in LF for the rest of this season, then slide over to 1B if Big Tex leaves. Package him and a reliever and maybe we have ourselves a SS…

Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.

by cardsfanindenver on Apr 25, 2008 2:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

the STL co-ed softball Cardinals

Great post. I always think of a co-ed softball team when I watch the Cardinals bat. Everbody backs up when Pujols, Ankiel, Duncan, Glaus, and Duncan are at the plate and then they have to move way in when Miles, Izturis, Kennedy, Molina and the pitcher (except for Wagonmaker) are up. Maybe Tony should just make the lineup out alternating the men and the women! No offense to women softball players, most of them can hit it farther than I can.

It would be nice to see what Ryan could do given the opportunity to play 5-6 times per week. We can only hope that Tony feels the same way.

by lefty fan on Apr 25, 2008 9:51 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

That...

and that fact that Duncan looks like a guy who would hang out with a can of beer in his throwing hand while playing left field…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Apr 25, 2008 10:23 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

great post...

I hope the guys upstairs are listening.

We need Ryan and his gap power.

by RedbirdAvenger on Apr 25, 2008 10:25 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Noodle Arm

So, is there any disagreement, after Barton’s atrocious throw last night, that LaRussa’s been justified in pulling him at around the 6th Inning? The throw was inexplicably bad, like what I see in my softball league (from the bad players, that is).

If that throw is representative of his skills, then Barton’s going to make Manny Ramirez look like a defensive wizard.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Apr 25, 2008 10:37 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Yes

I suppose there are times it’s appropriate. But, the arm isn’t such an issue in left field. Also, TLR has shorted his bench to pull Barton several times when it wasn’t really that necessary. I can see a RF replacement or a 9th inning replacement. But, pulling him from left field in the 7th when we are up by 2 runs or down by 2 runs or whatever is completely unnecessary. It’s what causes pinch hitting appearances by pitchers.

If he’s so bad, he can’t man left field with a 2 run lead…he shouldn’t be on the team at all. That’s certainly not the case.

by RedbirdRay on Apr 25, 2008 10:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Close Games

Of course, it’s been the close games we’re we’ve run out of bench players. Those are the games where Tony’s been most likely to start manically pushing buttons.

So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)

by Titus Pullo on Apr 25, 2008 10:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I dissagree

Tony has been replacing him with a “better” defensive player mainly due to arm concerns. He doesn’t want him to give up runs in a close game. We now see why Tony believes that Barton can be a liability with his arm.

As for him being so bad; well; Barton says it’s not so much an issue with his arm strength. More of how he throws the ball. (to the cuttoff and not through the cut off.) And he has been working on it a lot before games. So he’ll get batter. Ideally you would want him to figure that stuff out in the minors. (he never played above double A). But we really send him down to Memphis for a month worth of coaching and every day starts.

by Evilfrog on Apr 25, 2008 10:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Tony's use pattern

is questionable.

I would also like to re-state my rationale that in LF arm strength doesn’t matter that much. A LF rarely throws a guy out tagging from 3rd. It would most likely be a play generated from a guy running second to home that requires a throw. That situation is most likely dependent on where the ball is hit and the SS will be well out in the outfield if the ball goes to the corner anyway.

Tony’s use pattern so far doesn’t really back up the close game theorey. Granted it’s a small sample size.

Barton has started 8 games so far. 7 in left, 1 in right.

He has been pulled early in 5/8 of those:
On the 4th, he was pulled after 5 innings when the Cardinals were up 5-1.
On the 5th, he was pulled after 6 when StL was up 4-1.
On the 6th, he was pulled after 4 when StL was up 2-0.
On the 17th, he was pulled after 6 when StL was up 3-0 (we then lost in extras).
On the 22nd, he was pulled after 5 when StL was down 3-4 (went 12 innings).

He has been allowed to finish 3 games:
On the 11th, the Cards were up 4-2 when his usual pull time came and went.
On the 20th, we were losing 8-0 around sub-time.
Last night, we were up 5-1 around “defense-O’clock”.

So, in the 5 games pulled…..the run differential was 2 runs or less in only 2 of them.
And, in the 3 games left in…..one of them had only a 1 run differential when sub time came around.

Doesn’t really back up the “defensive substitution” reasoning.

by RedbirdRay on Apr 25, 2008 11:34 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

In the one chance that I remember,

Barton threw out the runner who tried to score from 2nd.

by silent_bob on Apr 25, 2008 12:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

he also threw a guy out at third

I can’t remember which game it was, but it was a nice throw.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 1:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I'm guessing

you intended to say “we really can’t send him down to Memphis”... because the Cards literally can’t! As a “Rule 5” guy, he’s got to stay on the ML roster all season.

Barton will get plenty of work in before games; he’ll improve as the season goes along.

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Apr 25, 2008 11:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

yes I meant we can't send him down.

And that he has to get his coaching up in the Majors.

Guess I missed the last two games when he was allowed to finish. The 4th; 5th; and 6th had more to do with it being his first major league games than the score. But it still fits the pattern of Tony wanting to ease him into playing time and having him finish most of his games by the time June rolls around.

by Evilfrog on Apr 25, 2008 11:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I agree with this

I don’t think his arm is weak per se, though I was one of the first one to come on here and say he had a “noodle arm” I’ve revised my estimate. i think his arm is fine, but his setup to throw is bad. He doesn’t do a good job of getting behind his throws. In warmups he can throw it on a line from RF to 3B at least as well as luddy or duncan, but when he’s digging the ball out of a corner he rushes and throws off-balance.

This is something that can be worked on and fixed. If his arm was just “weak”, it probably wouldn’t be.

Regardless, Barton should never be pinch hit for in a situation where a walk would help the team or against a pitcher like Riske, who walks a boatload. The guy has a very good eye and if you send him up to the plate and tell him to take a walk, there’s a very good chance he will.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on Apr 25, 2008 1:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Barton is a rookie ...

and he’s going to make rookie mistakes from time to time … getting picked off at 2nd was another case in point … Brendan Ryan’s going to make some too in the next several days … but their upsides are worth it … and you just have to live with it … I’m sure Tony will do all he can to limit their exposure … however, I say, “let’em play” ... by the way … I think Tony has molly-coddled Barton a little too much in the outfield, and made some bad replacement calls which hurt us in late-game situations … I think Barton is a little better defensively than he’s being treated … one bad throw notwithstanding …

Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...

by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 25, 2008 1:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Being that was his 23rd game in the SHOW

Throws to the wrong spot and getting picked off base are part of the learning process. Not sure we’re going to see him start this weekend with the Cards facing 3 righties.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 25, 2008 1:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

That's what Im saying

He is trying to learn the game at a Major Legaue level. It takes time and mistakes. While he learns we have to accept that A.) Tony is going to pull him a lot early on. And B.) He will make mistakes. He will also show why he made the team. And that is because of his speed and his bat.

by Evilfrog on Apr 25, 2008 1:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Jose Martinez?

I understand that he’s not a slam dunk to make it to the bigs and perform well, but he’s been playing pretty well at Springfield this year. His AVG and OBP are a little low, but he’s arguably been the most productive hitter on the team so far.

by saladdays on Apr 25, 2008 10:45 AM EDT