What is the value of a steal?
Over this past winter I have read the Baseball Prospectus book – “Baseball Between the Numbers”. Found it to be pretty interesting overall, but one chapter in particular sparked some questions. The chapter talked about the value of the stolen base, and more or less concluded the steal has limited value. I've been stewing over this for some time now, and I thought this forum was a great place to get some answers to the questions the book has raised in my mind. I hope maybe someone can help me reconcile the numbers I've used and maybe even spark a conversation on what the value of a steal is.
The book used one of Rickey Henderson's years (I am fairly certain it was the famous 1982 season) to illustrate the point that stolen bases provide minimal value, if in fact any at all. The general rule that I've been operating under for some time has been that if you are successful 80% of the time attempting a steal you are helping your team. Venture much below that mark and you are doing your team harm. The book talks about run expectancy from taking that extra base. It's a concept that is not new to me, so I understood the rationale. I've even kinda operated on the same assumptions the book uses, but had never seen it explained quite as thoroughly. In conclusion, the book argues that Rickey Henderson stealing bases is exciting but that his value lied mostly in his ability to get on base and little in his ability to steal a base.
Though I have somewhat accepted that school of thought in theory, I have a hard time thinking about Henderson's season and believing all of that was for naught. Becoming a fan while Herzog had his team running every chance they got, and winning while doing it, makes me a little dubious also. So I decided to look at Henderson's 82' season in a different context. A context that is another piece of gospel to us aspiring sabermetricians - OPS.
I wondered what happen if we made the assumption that instead of stealing the extra base, or getting caught stealing, we instead assumed he got the same results from his work at the plate. In other words, take the times he was caught stealing and assume an out at the plate (take it off his OBP for the year), and take the times he was successful and assume a double (add it onto his SLG for the year).
In 1982, Henderson posted a line of .267/.398/.382 on 536 AB, with 130 steals in 172 attempts. The OBP was based off reaching 261 times in 656 plate appearances (when factoring Sacs, HBP, and walks). SLG was based off 205 total bases in his 536 at bats. Translates to an OPS of .780. Not bad, but far from legendary.
If we take his results on the bases, and make the assumption that he had instead achieved the same results with the stick we’d do the following with those numbers:
We’d take the 42 times caught stealing and assume and out. This would mean he, in theory, reached base 219 times in 656 appearances for a new OBP of .334.
We’d take the 130 successful attempts and assume a double. This would mean he, in theory, would have had 335 total bases in 536 at bats for a new SLG of .625.
In reality, Rickey Henderson had an OPS of .780. Making these new assumptions, which are based off his unique ability to achieve the same results in a different way, his OPS is .959. This would indicate a HOF caliber season. This is also more in line with what most of us would believe intuitively.
So this is where I need help. I have a very hard time reconciling this in my mind. It would seem to me that somewhere there is a flaw in the reasoning. Is there a gap in the belief that you need to be 80% successful in steals for it to be effective? Or is there a gap in using OPS to look at a players value? Or is the flaw in the logic I’m using to translate Henderson’s season?
Intuitively, I think that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. The steal may have been overvalued in the 80’s. Now, I tend to think it may be undervalued. Using run expectancy would suggest it is being properly valued, but my example says maybe not. I’d love to hear others thoughts on this. This site is a daily stop for me, and it’s because I respect a lot of the thoughts and viewpoints I read. I’m hoping it might be a worthy point of discussion. Or at the least somebody can tell me where I’m way out of line trying to translate things this way.
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Comments
Interesting
Very good post, but I may am not going to be able to help you with your questions. I have always been a fan of the stolen base. I have fond memories of Coleman turning a walk into a double. I also would perfer a stolen base to a bunt, or even a ground out that advances the runner.
I think therefore I would WANT to agree with your analysis and would not be objective enough.
by nybirdfan on Apr 18, 2008 6:27 PM EDT 0 recs
I am glad
that you did this – I have actually been thinking of trying to do the exact same calculations that you did for some time – just never did it. Why should a double count more than a single and a stolen base? I think you should come up with a name for this stat – give it an acronym, and try evaluating players with it.
I won’t go into the potential psychological ramifications of the stolen base (or at least the threat of it) as that is impossible to quantify. But having a man on second is clearly more valuable than a man on first – if you have someone on first who can reliably steal a base (80% seems like a fine number to me…), he should with some regularity.
by cdb on Apr 18, 2008 6:44 PM EDT 0 recs
One additional comment
I know that a portion of the value of SLG when looking at OPS comes from the ability to get a runner home from first on a double. And that is lost by getting on first and stealing second. I course there is also an increased chance of him scoring himself from second.
But in this situation we are talking about a leadoff hitter. He’s probably leading off an inning somewhere between 250-300 of those 656 appearances. In the majority of the others AB’s, he still does not have anyone on, with the bottom of the order preceding him.
So in terms of runs lost because of that exact situation, I’d imagine the number is pretty miniscule over the course of the season, regardless of batting order. Much more so for a leadoff hitter.
And of course a 1st and 3rd situation with a basestealing threat is a delicious prospect anyway. Trying to throw him out at second may come at the expense of a run anyway.
by Merry CRasmus on Apr 18, 2008 7:18 PM EDT 0 recs
affect outcome of at bat
though I don’t think it can be defined by statistics I think something can also be said for the effect a speedy baserunner has on how a pitcher pitches and how focused he is on the batter. maybe more likely to throw a fastball? maybe not, at any rate, I think this is a great post and see no flaws. kudos
by Yadi on
Apr 23, 2008 12:15 PM EDT
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The book
The key thing to consider is exactly how much moving from first to second improves a team’s scoring expectancy. I think the assumption in the chapter is that the marginal increase on scoring expectancy decreases as a man moves from first to second. This is likely how they arrive at this statement:
“The run expectancy tables from 1982 show that Henderson added an extra 22.2 runs to the A’s offense with his 130 steals. But the 42 times he was caught cost the team 20.6 runs…”
Henderson’s strategy was good for the team, where he gets thrown out 76% of the time, but not by much. Remember that merely getting on base is very important way of creating runs for your team. If he hadn’t stolen at all, the team would have fared worse, just not by much again.
Maybe Henderson should have been more selective when he stole. Or he could have utilized his ability to gain extra bases on his teammates’ hits, which the authors of the book mention is a very valuable.
Also, a question for everyone: If some one gets picked off, thrown out, or doubled up, does that count against on base percentage? I think it maybe should as a penalty for base-running mistakes.
"The steak may be tough, but you can always slide your fork through the gravy."
by KennyWang on Apr 18, 2008 7:22 PM EDT 0 recs
So what you are saying...
(at least the way my mind took it) is that if Henderson’s SB% was up above 80%, like the original poster suggests for a reasonable %, then Henderson’s steals would have been more worth it. At the rate he stole bases, he added only 1.6 runs to the team. Had he been caught only 21 times, however, he would have lost only 10.3 runs and thus added 11.9 runs to the team.
In any case, great work by Merry CRasmus. I think this is a quintessential definition of a fanpost. Sorry for whatever I have been doing over the last couple years. :)
by stlfan on
Apr 19, 2008 8:59 AM EDT
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Out at Plate=Hit or Walk-Caught Stealing
I’d love for this to be true, so I took a primitive look at it.
The simple Runs Created- ([H+BB]*TB}/{AB+BB])- show that actual 1982 Rickey created 81.43 runs while the Adjusted Rickey created 110.98 runs. This assumes that a single/walk and a stolen base is the same as a double and that Rickey getting caught stealing is the same as Rickey making an out at the plate with no men on. Good news: a hit and a stolen base does basically mean the same thing as a double. But…an out at the plate is less costly than an out on the base paths.
The Risk?
Unfortunately, I found that losing a runner off the bases is more damaging than simply making an out. BP’s 1982 Run Expectancy Table used in the book confirms that. Starting an inning there’s an run expectancy of .47 runs; a single/walk (man on first) with no outs gives you an expectancy of .87. One out and none on gives you an expectancy of .25. While the end result is the same, an expectancy of .25 runs, the cost is much greater. Making an out on the basepaths costs .6 runs (.87-.25) and simply striking out would cost the team only .2 runs (.47-.25).
The Reward?
And the reward isn’t all that spectacular; a successful stolen base with no outs jumps the expectancy from .87 to 1.07. You’re risking .6 runs in order to gain .2 runs. To break even, you need to steal roughly 75% in 1982 (steal three bases and improve .6 runs [.2+.2+.2], compared to losing one man his .6 runs in order to break even).
Conclusion
Unless you like wind sprints, stealing bases is a worthless exercise at anything not appreciably above 75%.
What about Whiteyball?
What makes Whiteyball so amazing is that the team stole bases at an alarming success rate, but was it successful enough? 1982’s 68% hurt the team, 1985’s 77% is right around the threshold along with 1987’s 78%. Unfortunately, even 1987’s blistering 314 team stolen bases may have been just enough to break even. I guess Whitey liked to use games as conditioning practice, too.
Intuitively, this all makes sense to me. Nobody would give Mo Vaughn the green light and everyone would give Rickey the green light. The question is not whether a stolen base helps the team. It does. The question is how successful do you need to be at stealing bases in order to justify taking the risk? The numbers say to draw the line at ~75% (plus your needed incentive to run sprints), which eliminates all but a handful of contemporary base-stealers and incites Joe Morgan. Poor Joe.
by sra on Apr 18, 2008 9:21 PM EDT 0 recs
ding...
... you can’t simply compare a single+SB to a double and a caught stealing to an out at the plate. as sra pointed out above, the opportunity cost of the lost base-runner is what makes the strategy damaging except at the highest rate of success for basestealers. if you get on base and don’t attempt to steal, then you’re still on base. if you make an out at the plate, you never have the opportunity. outs on the basepaths are much more costly, and since the vast majority of players are not as good at stealing bases as Rickey Henderson, it is generally a very bad idea to attempt a lot of steals. the risk is great while the reward is so minimal as to be nearly non-existent.
now, certain situations might dictate taking the chance, because the potential reward could be great (e.g. Dave Roberts in the 2004 ALCS, although it’s still an arguable play with Papi at bat). it’s just like a late-inning squeeze play: sacrifice bunting is generally not a great idea, but in certain in-game situations it can improve your odds of victory.
by kindred on
Apr 18, 2008 9:55 PM EDT
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Run Expectancy
The principles there have always made sense to me. I’m not really arguing against run expectancy, just trying to reconcile the apparent discrepancy. Obviously I am a redblooded American like everybody, and like having steals in the game because it’s fun. But doesn’t make it a good thing necessarily. I am just having trouble reconciling the run expectancy math, which I understand (at least to some extent), with the “what if” involving OPS.
And I know my OPS assumptions can’t be perfect because more or less it serves as an indicator of run creation anyway. For example, making my asumptions, there will be a few runs lost because a runner at first may not end up scoring with a single and a steal where he likely would with a pure double.
I know it isn’t perfect, but I would think it would be considered “hand grenade” close at the least. And after reading the responses, and thinking about it further, it could be easily argued that if I am going to try to make the assumptions I am with OPS that I should be taking the 42 caught stealing attempts from both OBP and SLG, rather than just OBP. That would make the new OPS .880. Of course that would be likely selling Rickey just a little short in run creation ability, at least to my way of thinking, because you are discounting completely the ability to drive in any baserunners with any singles he hit before a failed steal attempt.
So confusing! But the bottom line to me is that I still believe Rickey doing what he did that year with solely the bat, rather than with both the bat and legs, would result in an OPS somewhere between .880-.959. And that’s pretty great. Hard to reconcile in my mind how a guy could steal bases at right around a breakeven rate as far as run expectancy, but yet have gained a minimum of 100 in OPS (apparently) had he reached the same end result with just his bat.
by Merry CRasmus on
Apr 19, 2008 2:55 AM EDT
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But...
I completely understand your point (which is how I would look at it as well). I’m not trying to say you are wrong. I’m just playing devil’s advocate here to try and look at it from another perspective:
Don’t you have to look at where you are starting, too?
If the inning starts off at a .47 run expectancy and goes up to a 1.07 with a hit and a steal of 2nd base, then you go up .6, whereas if you simply make an out, or get on and get out stealing 2nd, you go down .22. That means that if you steal 25% of the time it is worth it. It is all relative to how you look at it. Is it comparing where you start to where you end up or is it comparing where you were currently at?
Remember…Devil’s Advocate…
by stlfan on
Apr 19, 2008 9:04 AM EDT
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understand your point
I think I mentioned that the end result of a caught stealing and an out at the plate is the same (and for a double or single plus stolen base). But the cost is drastically different. I wanted to analyze the problem from 1st base. You’ve already jumped that .47 to .87 just by getting on first. Now that you’ve reached 1st base safely, what should you do? At what success rate should you generally risk that precious out and those .4 runs you’ve added? That’s the question I wanted to ask. Unlike lboros argument, which is more complete than mine by accounting for situations, I was simply wanting to know how good a base-stealer should be before giving them the green light all season long regardless of situation. (and I assumed a no on, none out scenario purely for simplicity).
For the situation analysis like lboros’ comment below, it might be more useful to know the increased probability of scoring 1 run when you successfully stole second with two outs than simply knowing that on average you’ve gone from .21 runs to .31 runs…(or the actual situational effect of a stolen base in the game logs, which I’ve just seen the red baron post now. Now I’m the unoriginal one.)
by sra on
Apr 19, 2008 9:23 AM EDT
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I have to take issue with the Whiteyball discussion.
In the Whiteyball situation, you had several factors on those teams that would change analysis.
1) You had a team with a focus that valued OBP over SLG%. Therefore, the SLG% effect had to be artificially provided.
2) You had a ballpark that was considerably larger than most, even during its time. Therefore, the ball stayed in the ballpark more often, and the effects of speed were more prevalent. The home team was able to take better advantage of this deficiency using the SB potential.
3) You had an era of baseball in which fewer runs were averaged per game. This again reduces the Run Expectancy value.
As lboros indicates below, if the overall Run Expectancy of the team is reduced during a game, an inning, or a season; then the overall prospective “opportunity cost” of the decision is affected. I would contend that the Run Expectancy values of the Cardinals during the early to mid-80s would have been significantly less than opposing teams without the running game that they executed with that “alarming” success rate.
I want to make some points that are not statistical, but as others have noted are difficult to quantify.
1) The threat of the stolen base altered baseball.
The slide-step was invented to counter Whiteyball. I contend that it has also increased the number of runs per game and inflated the ERAs of many pitchers by reducing both their velocity and command.
The pitch-out is used to defend against the running game. This is a ball to the next batter, and a wasted pitch for the pitcher. This, also, effects the overall effectiveness of the pitcher by increasing his pitch count and putting the batter in more effective counts.
This seems like a drastic over-reaction by teams and managers if their is so minimal an impact on the outcome of the game.
2) The running game increases the opportunity for opposing teams to create defensive mistakes. Catchers do not throw the ball away if no one is running. The pitcher does not throw the ball into the dugout, if there is no threat of a stolen base. The pitch-out also provides an opportunity for a ball to be thrown away.
3) As was stated below, the overall comfort of the fielders and pitcher are affected by the threat of a stolen base. It is evident to anyone that has watched baseball beyond the statistical lines of a box score, that a pitcher that is concerned with a stolen base threat on 1B often displays that concern with reduced focus and command at the plate. This provides increased potential for the batter to get on base. I know the point was offered generically below that hitters “hit worse with runners in motion.” I would like see some analysis done on a team that runs, as a rule, rather than as an exception. I would expect to see different results that would indicate that the “cost” putting runners in motion is outweighed by the “benefit” of the reduced focus by the pitcher and fielders.
As I said, these are difficult to quantify; although, if I can find the time, I will try to do some of the research I have proposed. Often, statistical analysis can provide intricate insight into the potential outcomes of given situations. Such analysis is difficult to apply to all situations while still providing the same effective insight.
by etp_stl on
Apr 19, 2008 5:26 PM EDT
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Good points
I’m glad to see others willing to bring them up. A few more non-quantifiable benifits of the stolen base threat are perhaps the most beneficial aspects of the stolen base:
1) it alters the position alignment of the infielders, especially when the threat is on first. Often you leadoff hitter, like Henderson, is a sb threat, which give a giant whole on the right side of the infield for your 2-hitter, traditionally a good contact hitter, to shoot for.
2) a threat to steal second usually gives a high percentage of fastballs to the hitter. Again, with the leadoff man on first, you two hitter is going to get a lot of fastballs for strikes (to protect against the sb and to avoid walking a second man on in front of the 3-hitter). Fastballs in the zone should help you 2-hitter get more hits and x-base hits, creating more runs and more men on base for your 3 hitter. If the pitcher refuses to throw a high percentage of fastballs in that situation, a good base stealer should take second like it was handed to him.
by fltfire on
Apr 19, 2008 6:02 PM EDT
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rebuttal
First, I love Whiteyball. I opened my original post saying I hoped artificially jacking up SLG worked. Moving on,
1. Whiteyball teams had great OBP. My point is that stealing bases at less than ~75% takes away the benefits of that OBP. Further, OBP is somewhere between 3-4 times more valuable than SLG. So why risk $3 to gain $1? It’s worth it at certain success rates and in certain situations.
2. With all due respect, this seems to be a logical misstep. Ballpark is big, and the grass short; therefore stealing bases is more valuable. Speed was no doubt useful. The outfielders could track down more flyballs or line drives in the gaps and Ozzie’s range I’m sure was excellent. But those would come through in defensive metrics (or the general impression that these clubs were superior fielding clubs). Maybe they could tag up with more frequency on fly-outs. I don’t know. These don’t seem ballpark specific to me.
3. I don’t understand your point here. I used a 1982 Run Expectancy Table, that should account for the overall runs scored per game in 1982.
Your less quantifiable points could be brought to light by the red baron’s idea of looking at the game logs to find out exactly what happened when someone stole a base. I think there’s merit to these arguments, but until hard data supports these baseball truisms, it’s definitely possible that they’re myths.
by sra on
Apr 19, 2008 7:54 PM EDT
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Good rebuttal.
I was not questioning your love for Whiteyball, but more challenging the points.
1) My assertion would be that even a great OBP with limited SLG requires consistent alignment of batters reaching base. Having a good to great OBP still requires that players put together their 2 out of 5 times OB together. The odds are greater, but it still requires a greater percentage of luck. That luck is increased if that single is hit with the runner standing at 2B or 3B, and fewer hits are required to be strung together.
2) I didn’t feel as good about this one by the end, as it is more a general speed advantage than specifically a SB advantage. Point given to you, clearly.
3) Perhaps, I simply should do my homework before challenging this point. I will look into it better, and see if there is any reason for me to disagree here. Sorry for the premature point.
It will be interesting to see if there is a way to quantify these other points. I believe few people will be willing to do that extensive of research without some sort of funding. With all due respect, though, the slide-step was specifically created in response to the high stolen base rates. My contentions about pitching definitely need to be substantiated, though. There is also little logical argument that can be made that stealing bases increases the opportunity for teams to make fielding errors. This is no different from saying that putting the ball in play provides an increased opportunity for getting on-base. Neither indicates an assuredy, but both provide a significantly greater statistical advantage.
by etp_stl on
Apr 19, 2008 8:17 PM EDT
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point, counterpoint
i didn’t know about the slide step, and that’s clearly managers and players adjusting to the stolen base. i would like to know if there was an adverse affect on pitchers’ performance using the slide step compared to before using it, and if it actually cut down on stolen base success enough to be worth the sacrificed performance, if any, at the plate.
i understand your OBP point better now, i think, and i agree. there’s little chance of even vince coleman scoring from first on a single or walk. the whiteyball birds needed to be in scoring position more than most teams because of that. if that’s what you’re saying, i get it. i just think that they may have tried a little too hard to get into scoring position, and that wasted potential runs.
these whiteyball teams are a fascinating case study. i think we have moneyball before there was a moneyball. whitey found great pitching (some things are never undervalued), and coupled it with light hitting positions players with blah averages who could play great defense (undervalued), get on base (undervalued) and steal bases (for the sake of argument, undervalued). that makes for a cheaply constructed contender. and it worked.
tangent: does this make yadi’s ability to cut down base-stealers or to pick guys off at first even more valuable than we thought?
by sra on
Apr 19, 2008 11:25 PM EDT
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Yadi
I don’t think his arm is undervalued by more traditional baseball enthusiasts. The saber crowd and the more modern baseball aficionados most definitely undervalue his arm. He is a game changer behind the plate.
by fltfire on
Apr 20, 2008 5:41 AM EDT
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Great discussion.
I enjoy going against some of the moneyball concepts, and trying to find fallacies in them. I can’t say that I have definitely done that here, but I fear that the statistical analysis is making the game/GMs too robotic.
That said, I agree with your point about how whiteyball may have been a similar concept. I know that Whitey’s statements on the topic indicated that his team building was a reaction to the ballpark he played in. He specifically designed a team that would take advantage of the spacious dimensions with speed, OBP, defense, and pitching to contact. He didn’t have to have the fascination with groundball pitching that Duncan has, as the ballpark would contain most flyballs (same advantage the Astros used to have). As he said, he would have loved to have a big HR hitting team; but it just wasn’t going to work out that way in the old Busch.
I think Molina is extremely valuable regardless of either way of looking at the game. If we both agree that having a baserunner taken off of the bases is more damaging than other outs, than he can drastically affect an opposing team’s ability to score. If we both agree that a greater percentage of success stealing bases results in less opportunity cost for stealing, then he again is able to lower that percentage of success. His pick-offs at 1B shorten the leads of runners which also may result in fewer runners taking 3B or scoring on a base hit.
Thanks for the challenge.
by etp_stl on
Apr 20, 2008 8:42 AM EDT
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enjoyed it, too
I understand your fears about using only numbers. I agree, but I know that a lot of my emotions are irrational. Therefore, I want to use those numbers to justify (or check) my emotions, such as loving Whiteyball. On a whole, I think they justify Whiteyball. Maybe the club tried to steal a few more bases than they should have, but these were still pretty successful clubs. Three pennants and one title is a pretty good run.
Enjoyed it. Thanks.
by sra on
Apr 20, 2008 9:19 AM EDT
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The Whiteyball era
is talked about a lot here, but it was really the Dodgers of the ‘60 with Maury Wills and Willie Davis that brought back the art of base stealing and they used it to great effect. They were just like the Cards of the 80’s, good pitching, very little power but they won with speed and defense. Whitey’s teams were almost a replica of the Dodger ‘60s teams and they made it work also.
Also, don’t overlook the Cardinals teams that won in the ‘60s (64, 67,68 69 teams). The Cards could not have won without Brock and his threat of base stealing. Those teams didn’t have much more power than the ‘80s teams. Henderson’s record setting year is not a good example to use in my opinion. He was just running for records and the A’s just didn’t use it for it’s greatest advantage.
I think it is the threat of stealing that has more impact than the actual stealing itself. For example in the game yesterday Lincecum shut the Cards down because Cards got leadof man on base 4 times only to be wiped out by double play. Had the lead off man been Brock instead of Shumaker, Brock would have “rattled” the young pitcher into a blow up in at least one of the occassions. The Dodger and Cardinals teams of the “60s would have found a way to win that game in all probability. How do you measure the threat and effect by stats?
by ridgesee on
Apr 20, 2008 10:57 AM EDT
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Excellent examples.
I was clearly negligent in limiting the discussion to Whiteyball. Obviously, the era including both Wills and Brock were influential to the uses of speed in the 80s.
How could we meause the effects? This is an excellent question. Here are some items that might be able to shed some light on the topic. I have no idea if they are currently recorded, or if the historical data exists to try.
1) Measure the number of pitch-outs, throws to 1B, or step-to-3B-throw-to-1B.
2) Cross that information with number of pitches per batter, number of balls thrown during that AB, and BABIP of the batters with a stolen base threat on 1B.
3) Add information based on number of wild pitches, passed balls, and throwing errors on catchers and pitchers in these circumstances.
What do you guys think? By the way, I wanted to commend Merry CRasmus on the initial topic. It is a great discussion topic, and maybe if we can find a way to quantify the effects of individual situations, we can further identify the true value of the SB in baseball.
by etp_stl on
Apr 20, 2008 11:33 AM EDT
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I don't think OPS is the best way to look at it
Yes, OPS is a very fine tool to measure the offensive capabilities of a player, but digging into the formulae of OBP and SLG will show you why you had such a large spike in OPS.
The formula for OBP is: (H+BB+HBP)/(AB+H+BB+HBP)
The formul for SLG is: TB/AB
What does this mean? OBP and SLG are both essentially percentage measures. They rely heavily on what is in the denominator of the equation. If OBP and SLG had demoninators that were equal, then this could be a useful measure of the value of a steal. However, since the denominator for OBP will be larger tan the denominator, the effect of taking one unit out of the numerator of each will be different.
In Rickey Henderson’s 1982 season, which you cited, he had 536 AB, 143 H, 116 BB, and 2 HBP. Using these numbers, the denominator for OBP will add up to 797 while the denominator for SLG will only be 536. That means, that for every SB adding essentally one base to the numerator of SLG, you will increase his SLG by 0.00187. On the other hand, for every CS subtracting essentially one base from the numerator of OBP, you will decrease his OBP by only 0.00125.
This means that a SB is worth about 1.5 more bases (earned) than a CS is worth (lost) under this circumstance, which is against the spirit of the argument.
I applaud your efforts, however, and if I knew more about sabermetrics (I’m just getting used to OPS and WPA myself) I would suggest a better metric to try and value a steal. Thanks for all the work and insight!
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on Apr 19, 2008 1:54 AM EDT 0 recs
Terrible mistake
I misquoted the formula for OBP, it should read:
(H+BB+HBP)/(AB+BB+SF+HBP)
This gives Rickey Henderson a denominator of 656 (which you mentioned in your post! I need an edit button) instead. With the updated calculations, a CS detracts 0.00152 from his OBP, meaning now that a SB is worth about 1.23 more bases (earned) than a CS is worth (lost) which is still a large enough difference to cause the spike.
I apologize for the error!!
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
Track 'em Tigers - An SB Nation Blog for Auburn Tigers fans
by Mr Redbird on
Apr 19, 2008 2:01 AM EDT
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War Damn Eagle
I definitely need to check out that blog Mr. Redbird!
Personally, I think you should consider changing your auto-sig to “Cardinal fan in the heart of Rasmus country!”
by Merry CRasmus on
Apr 19, 2008 1:03 PM EDT
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Stealing bases doesn't win games.
The Cardinals don’t steal bases and win, have won for a number of years including the playoffs.
The Mets steal a crap-ton of bases and where have they gone?
I believe the Giants do too.
by bornin82 on Apr 19, 2008 2:27 AM EDT 0 recs
That doesn't really make sense.
By your logic, one could look at any team in the 1980s and say, “They didn’t hit many homeruns, and they won. Home runs don’t win games.”
There are lots of ways to build a winning team. Some of those ways probably include the element of speed. Not sure exactly where you’re going with your idea there.
All your failures are just training grounds.
by the red baron on
Apr 19, 2008 9:23 AM EDT
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Also
when you face good pitching, power is the first thing that will run off and leave you hanging. Speed won’t. If used right it can really upset a good pitchers motion. Once a player gets a reputation of running and stealing, aka Wills, Brock, Henderson, Coleman etc. it is all powerful in close games, especially in late innings when a pitcher is tireing, he doesn’t feel like a bunch of hard throws just to keep a runner close. To have a successful running attack at least half of steal attempts should actually be hit and run plays. The hitter, if it is a good pitch should try to hit it, if it is ball, swing at it but not to hit it, just make a wild swing to interfere with the catcher’s throw. That’s how Cards played it with Brock and he still broke the steal record.
by ridgesee on
Apr 20, 2008 6:10 PM EDT
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I respectfully disagree...
I saw how Lou Brock “commanded” the game simply by taking his lead off first… with 938 steals against 307 caught stealing, his success rate was just over 75% for his career.
The Whiteyball teams ran at every opportunity because their home ballpark rewarded speed and discouraged home runs! (The CF fence was still 414 feet away at the time; Astroturf allowed grounders to zip through the infield.) The ‘82 team stole 200 bases and was caught 91 times. According to the ‘82 “run expectancy” quoted above, the Cards’ 69% success rate should have cost the team runs!
But if those Birds hadn’t run… then just where would the offense have come from? They only hit 67 home runs as a team! (George Hendrick, with 19, and Darrell Porter, with 12, were the only Cards in double figures in home runs.) Hendrick led the team in slugging percentage at .450… leadoff man Lonnie Smith was second at .434, thanks to his 35 doubles and eight triples!
That team led the league in OBP, at .333, and was dead last in homers… and won the World Series.
The stolen base may be an inefficient way to score runs in 2008... homer-friendly ballparks and the attention paid to stopping the running game (slide-steps by pitchers, “holding the ball”, etc.) increase the “opportunity cost” of a caught-stealing, and put more pressure on the success rate. But the Mets choked the NL East last year because they couldn’t get enough people out down the stretch… not because they stole bases.
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on
Apr 19, 2008 11:51 AM EDT
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Great debate raging
I have really enjoyed the arguments on both sides and I believe there are valid points to make. Numbers can too often be made to lie. To me there are circumstances where stolen bases are necessary to generate runs(I wonder if there woulldn’t be a different run expectancy for the individual teams and ballparks, i.e. are SBs more valuable in big parks or with slap-hitting teams) . While reading the first post my first reaction was to question whether there was a different outcome depending on the slg% for the team. Those 80s Cards teams did not hit for power. To me, they needed SBs to help generate runs more than todays teams which are so loaded with power. Now, when many teams have double digit HR guys from top to bottom it would seem Sbs are worth less.
I suspect that if you can adjust your strategy to fit the talent on your team and the situation involved, the numbers would prove SBs generate more runs even at slightly lower success rates in certain circumstances.
For this years Cards, it would be less important to steal bases ahead of Pujols for a multitude of reasons. However, assuming two outs and Schumaker on first with Barton at the plate, why not try and pick up a base and score on a single. I would guess the numbers prove better in that situation. Also, at the bottom of the order there hasn’t been much power and those guys have to put several hits/walks together to score runs. Would SBs benefit them more, even at slightly lower success rates?
Very interesting.
by CardFaninTTown on
Apr 25, 2008 1:35 PM EDT
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The factors are many more
A sb threat puts pressure on the defense, and can put defenders off optimal position to cover for a steal attempt. Moreover, the pitcher is not comfortable and will not throw certain pitches. If you can exploit this situation with the hitters following the basestealer, then the results can be much better than what expected. Then you have to add the errors eventually done by defenders. In my opinion the evaluation of a sb worthyness should be done analysing run scoring expectancy only of plays involving steal attempts, to corectly include these factors, but I have the impression that the data to do it is not available to everyone..
I agree that reaching base + sb is not equivalent to a double, because you can’t advance to 2nd if someone is already there.
GO CARDS!!!
by SuperSeve on Apr 19, 2008 5:34 AM EDT 0 recs
good discussion
i think we’re all ignoring the situational element. the reason CSs are so deadly is because they kill big innings — you not only lose a baserunner, you lose one of your 3 outs for that inning, so it vastly decreases your chances of putting 3 or 4 runs on the board.
but there are times when the chances of a big inning are already low. with 2 outs and a man on 1st base, you’re not likely to score 3 to 4 runs anyway, so the cost of a CS is low — go ahead and try to steal. likewise, if you have the weak part of the lineup coming up, or a very good pitcher on the mound, the chances of a big inning are also lower than normal — so the cost of a CS is lower, too, and therefore the relative value of an SB might be higher.
that’s the major weakness of run-expectancy studies in general —they assume a one-size-fits-all run expectancy. but we’d all agree that all man-on-first, one-out situations are NOT created equal. the run expectancy is much higher if the man on first is brian barton and the next 3 hitters are duncan, pujols and ankiel, than if the man on first is adam kennedy and the next three hitters are braden looper, cesar izturis, and skip schumaker. in the first situation, you don’t want to steal -—there’s too good a chance of a big inning. in the second situation, what the hell - the odds of a big inning are pretty low anyway, so take a risk.
by lboros on Apr 19, 2008 8:50 AM EDT 0 recs
Hmm...
I posted before I saw that you essentially already said a bunch of the stuff that I said, Lb. I feel very unoriginal now.
All your failures are just training grounds.
by the red baron on
Apr 19, 2008 9:21 AM EDT
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I've wondered about that...
Could there be a type of leverage in basestealing similar to what is used for studying relief usage? I.E. the studies that have us grit our teeth because Flores pitches with the game on the line regularly.
Honestly it’s darn tough to comprehend doing it. Because where relief situations are able to be pooled by inning and run differential (and able to get large pools of data), the decision whether stealing is a good idea is based on so many variables.
Of course what you say is true. It’s just darn hard to pool sitations together in any meaningful way for an effective study. It would be interesting to get an idea of how much a particular situation moves that breakeven number up or down. I suspect there is a good bit of deviation from that break even point from situation to situation.
And what you are saying about situation by lineup begs another question. Should the leadoff man prototype be an on base machine that doesn’t present a basestealing threat? Thinking Wade Boggs as the ideal prototype here.
And would the ideal spot for a speed demon be the 6 or 7 spot? Where they could leverage their greatest strength in an area where their tool could be used in an ideal situation? Where squeezing one run out is the goal?
by Merry CRasmus on
Apr 19, 2008 1:16 PM EDT
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combining Tango's leverage index with a run expectancy matrix
sounds like what you are looking for. I think it’s been done before but I can’t find anything after a cursory search. The principle is simple though—higher leverage situations would have a lower break even point since there’s (often) a lot more to be gained by plating a single run.
by azruavatar on
Apr 19, 2008 7:05 PM EDT
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playing devil's advocate myself
having done no math to back this up, but wouldn’t there be a lot more to lose from giving up a baserunner at that point, as well?
The question is how it balances out. I’m sure there have been studies about this, but it is so hard to find anything in the sabermetrics world… i can’t even find what I’m looking for half the time on BP or THT, and I usually know the authors name and the subject.
We really need some kind of “lexis-nexis” system for sabermetric research. any random dude should be able to query “base stealing leverage index” and get 30 or 40 results.
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on
Apr 19, 2008 8:03 PM EDT
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that's actually a really good idea. . .
the lexis-nexus thing that is. I’m going to have to think on that for a bit. . . . .
by azruavatar on
Apr 19, 2008 9:37 PM EDT
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It would be quite easy to copy what physics does
with www.arxiv.org. It’s more a matter of setting it up and getting everyone to use it.
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on
Apr 21, 2008 11:59 AM EDT
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It would be soooo useful though to have something along those lines
I’m just not familiar enough with Webpage design (and I’m not sure I have the initiative) to do something like that so much as run it blog style and just begin collecting and cataloging. . .
I’m still mulling some ideas but gosh I would love something like that.
by azruavatar on
Apr 21, 2008 12:52 PM EDT
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Higher leverage situations
From what I’m gathering, if a manager is optimizing the situations that runners are going, then it may not be quite as simple as BP makes it seem.
Now Rickey Henderson is not a good example in this case, because if you are going 172 times in one season then you aren’t concerning yourself with little details like leverage. But stepping away from that and looking at the environment today…
I’ll just make an assumption that the breakeven point overall for a season is 75%. In reality, as I understand it, that means that there a series of scenarios that each have their own breakeven rate. At the end of the season, all these series of individual events that have their own required rate of success are weighted averaged to a total of 75%. But that doesn’t mean that if you can only be 65% successful you should never steal. There may have been any number (5,10, 20, etc) of times during the season where the situation calls for taking the chance if you can succeed at some rate less than 65% even.
I don’t know how much these rates would move. I would suspect quite a bit in some cases. You can think of some no brainer situations where you should not run. If you are down several in the later innings with big bats behind you, you might need something like 90% success or more to make it a net win to try. Of course having situations that would deviate from the mean on that extreme means there are situations that deviate from the mean on the other as well.
Going back to the arbitrary 75% break-even mark. If a manager avoids running in the obvious low leverage situations, and focuses on taking risks where the payoff is better than average (less than 75%), then he could be doing his team a service even without reaching 75%. If you’re a guy that can succeed 80% of the time maybe there are 150 times a year where the situation calls for going. If you can make it 75% of the time maybe it gets reduced to 100 times. And maybe there are even a handful of times that you could send a guy that would be successful 60%. Just throwing hypothetical numbers there. Not sure exactly how it would all stack up.
It’s kinda drifted away from my original OPS line of thinking and that’s good, because I think this probably has more meat now. I’ve never really thought about it quite this way – the discussion has been helpful to me. It does seem quite possible that a baserunner could venture below the overall breakeven point (per run expectancy), and still be doing his team a service. Simply by choosing spots where the situation allows a success rate lower than the average situation would. .
by Merry CRasmus on
Apr 20, 2008 3:35 AM EDT
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Situations
Your point is valid. In fact, it’s often my point. It seems to me that so much of these debates is fueled by historical run expectancy in gerneralized situations (e.g. man on second and one out). It’s not that I think that information isn’t useful, it most definitely is, but I don’t think that kind of information is specific enough to lead to conclusions like stolen bases hurt the team or sac bunts are bad.
So much more goes into situational analysis than how many are on and how many are out (I know that’s an oversimplification, but it’s merely to illustrate my point). In deciding whether or not to steal a manager would take into account numerous things like: who’s pitching, how he’s pitching that particular day, what pitches he throws and how often, the count, how often he throws what pitches in that count, his time to the plate, the inning, the catcher, his time to release, his arm strength, the opposing manager and his predispositions, your own team and how they get runs, who’s on base, who is at the plate, who’s on deck, subsequent hitters, who’s on the bench, how those hitters fair against the pitcher, who’s in the bullpen, the score, the opposing team and how they create runs, your pitcher, how he’s pitching that day, who’s in your bullpen, etc. (I could go on, but hopefully I’ve made my point)
Either directly or indirectly all those things matter in any given situation which effect the benefit/risk analysis that must be done in deciding whether or not to steal in a particular situation. The same thing is true for sac bunts.
Run expectancy is simply too generalized to make the broad strategic decisions they imply, which so many seem to treat as the new gospel truth.
by fltfire on
Apr 19, 2008 6:28 PM EDT
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Interesting...
and a really great post.
I find the question of the value of stolen bases a very difficult one. I understand the formulae, and I credit their accuracy from a strictly mathematical perspective. I think, though, that a stolen base doesn’t quite benefit fully from that sort of analysis.
I think, and this is just me sort of blue skying, that the only way to truly understand the overall value of a stolen base would be to actually go through all the game logs, for an entire season, and determine how often a steal helps to create an additional run. To me, a stolen base is such a situational element that unless you look at it on a case by case basis specifically, a strictly percentage based formula is going to fall short.
I agree with your hypothesis, by the way, i.e. that the stolen base is probably undervalued today. I simply think that the current analytical methods we have tend to fall a bit short of optimal when talking about a play that doesn’t always contribute equally to the outcome of the game.
All your failures are just training grounds.
by the red baron on Apr 19, 2008 9:20 AM EDT 0 recs
David Eckstein and the Angels WS team
remember every game that season how the announcers would talk about the “pesky” Eckstein when he was on the basepaths? They suggested that it demoralized and distracted pitchers. Even though a base stealer may get picked off or thrown out stealing, it can benefit the team by causing the pitcher to not concentrate on getting the batter out and in turn cause him to make mistakes. So if Skip is on base posing a threat and the pitcher makes a mistake to Albert then I say it is good for the team.
I'm looking for the next Bobby Bonilla?
by showmejoe on Apr 19, 2008 9:53 AM EDT 0 recs
Different Way
Interesting stuff and I agree that intuitively it feels like high success rates are value-add, but the problem with these analyses to me is that it we still don’t know if the A’s were better or worse off. The BP analysis says he was about breakeven—hard to believe. I tend to think that he gave them a HOF year and had to dramatically increase their wins total.
As many have mentioned, the nature of a running team is that the facts on the field change. In the 80’s, pitchers routinely threw tens of throws to first to hold coleman/mcgee. In theory this should tire them out. Defensive positioning changes with a man on second and a man on first. Pitchers hurry their pitches when a fast runner is on. Outfielders cheat in a few steps to make a play at third on a single. On second the pitcher is having to decipher hidden signs from catcher and on and on. As others have said, the game situation (number of outs, time in the game, etc) should also change the equation.
I would think a more interesting way to look at the value would be to regress teams with high stolen base totals against runs scored versus teams with low stolen base totals and see if their is a statistical increase in runs scored for running teams. This might not show the value of a stolen base, but it might show if running generally results in higher runs scored across a wide sample size. Or even perhaps look at SB% versus runs scored and see if their is a breakeven point.
I have no math skills so don’t know how to do this, but I think this type of approach would get you closer to is a it good for a team or not.
by The Duke on Apr 19, 2008 12:00 PM EDT 0 recs
Somebody who's better w/ online baseball stats . . .
Wouldn’t one of the otherwise-intangible effects of the SB threat (pulling defenders out of position) be shown by an improved BABIP of the batters behind the SB threat? That is, wouldn’t Willie McGee, say, have gotten more singles through the defense when Vince Coleman got on and has to be held at first by the first baseman? I think BABIP would show that.
by tom s. on Apr 19, 2008 12:21 PM EDT 0 recs
Hitters hit worse when a man is in motion...
With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch
by joker24 on
Apr 19, 2008 1:21 PM EDT
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but those numbers always take into account
both SB attempts and Hit and Runs. players forced into a hit and run situation by their managers shouldn’t be considered; that is a different topic, since the idea isn’t to steal second but rather to avoid the double play/end up 1st and 3rd on a single. It’s more akin to a sacrifice bunt with upside than “hitting when the runner is trying to steal”. On that same note, failed hit-and-runs should be recorded as such by scorers. Iz2 shouldn’t be held accountable for being caught stealing when schumaker swings and misses at ball 4 because TLR told him he HAD to run on that pitch.
Giving up a strike (or two) on an SB attempt is a very real penalty that should be considered, however, as is the benefit of receiving the free “ball” on a pitchout. Both are hard to measure though. How do you look at historical stats and recognize which hitters, and when, took a pitch to allow a guy to steal who didn’t steal?
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on
Apr 19, 2008 8:15 PM EDT
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Interesting Stats Regarding Perhaps the Lack of Value of a Steal
I heard Bud Black asked in the preseason whether he thought the Padres would be able to do a better job of holding runners and throwing out would-be stealers because they were so bad last year. He replied something to the effect of “well we gave up the most steals in the league, but the fewest runs, so no I’m not too worried.”
I did a quick check on baseball reference:
The Pads catching tandem last year of Bard, Barrett, Bowen and LaForrest allowed a whopping total of 189 SBs last year and caught only 20.
Yet they led the league in ERA and RA with a 3.7 ERA and 666 runs.
Conversely the Cards catchers allowed 58 SBs and caught 34 stealing. Yet the Cards pitchers had an ERA of 4.65 and allowed 829 runs to score.
I know this is very anecdotal and could also be related to that big park, but it is interesting nonetheless as it relates to this discussion. Obviously there are many factors that go into how many runs a team gives up, but those Pads catchers were pretty abysmal last year.
by OCCardsFan on Apr 19, 2008 7:21 PM EDT 0 recs
we'd have to move the walls back ~50 feet
to have the same intrinsic run-prevention advantage that pitchers in SD have. Although you’d think in a lower run-scoring environment, the value of a stolen base would increase.
SD also missed the playoffs by one game… ‘d be interested in seeing whether a free stolen base at any point in 2007 cost them a game. I’m sure it did, given the numbers you’ve posted.
And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...
by SleepyCA on
Apr 19, 2008 8:07 PM EDT
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Totally agree
And I didn’t mean to make them a direct comparison but rather wanted the Cards numbers just to put the Padres terrible numbers in context. I just really found it interesting that the Padres essentially gave up a crapload of SBs but were able to minimize the damage from this.
On the other hand, I recently heard Jimmy Edmonds (“Edwards”) interviewed and he said that he didn’t think playing in Petco was that different than playing in Busch III, because both are really hard to hit home runs. Again, I know this is not objective data. Just throwing it out there.


