making it last
by lboros on Apr 17, 2008 9:02 AM EDT
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Printlet’s start with ankiel’s 17-pitch at-bat. it was nearly as long as the brewers’ entire 9th-inning rally (19 pitches); that’s what type of an at-bat it was. the pitch-per-AB data at Baseball-Reference’s playfinder index stretch back 20 years, to 1988. in that entire span, no cardinal hitter ever took a 17-pitch at-bat. the longest lasted 15 pitches: mike deflice against bartolo colon on june 14, 1997 (he walked) and pedro guerrero against don robinson on april 25, 1989 (also walked). another 4 st louis at-bats of the last 20 years lasted 14 pitches (one of them happened last year, rolen vs jake peavy on august 8; he popped out); 7 at-bats lasted 13 pitches.
so we’re talking about an historic event here; rick’s legend grows. here’s the whole list of 13-pitches-or-more at-bats:
| date | hitter | pitcher | no pitches | outcome |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| apr 16, 2007 | ankiel | villanueva | 17 | W |
| aug 8, 2007 | rolen | peavy | 14 | popout 2b |
| april 16, 2004 | mckay | wendell | 13 | groundout 3-1 |
| june 4, 2004 | edmonds | wa miller | 13 | K looking |
| aug 22, 2004 | renteria | vogelsong | 13 | homerun |
| april 2, 2003 | renteria | rusch | 14 | K |
| aug 7, 1998 | mcgwire | da stevens | 13 | flyout cf |
| sept 23, 1998 | jordan | ra johnson | 14 | W |
| june 14, 1997 | defelice | colon | 15 | W |
| sep 13, 1997 | da bell | erdos | 13 | K |
| may 7, 1996 | clayton | delucia | 13 | flyout rf |
| sep 18, 1996 | pagnozzi | bottenfield | 13 | popout 2b |
| sep 2, 1991 | pagnozzi | ojeda | 14 | K |
| april 25, 1989 | guerrero | do robinson | 15 | W |
i love some of the matchups here. on the one hand you’ve got heavyweight collisions like rolen v peavy and jordan v big unit --- two mean, stubborn guys who’ll be damned if they’re gonna give in. edmonds v wade miller would also fall into this category --- miller was still effective in june 2004 (he got hurt later that year and has never been the same). so would guerrero vs don robinson (the latter was a 230 lb intimidator). you can easily imagine how two badass guys like this would end up in a marathon confrontation. ditto for any pair of evenly matched mediocrities like pagnozzi v bottenfield or clayton v delucia; both parties are always out there grinding away, just trying to survive. but the most intriguing at-bats to me are the mismatches. how does dave stevens (career era 6.02) hang in there for 13 pitches against mcgwire (in the midst of his 70-homer season)? and 10 of the pitches were strikes! he must’ve thrown mcgwire every pitch in his meager arsenal, to every part of the plate, yet somehow he emeged with his head still attached to his body. the mike defelice matchup itself is pretty interesting, a battle of rookies. defelice in 1997 put a .238 / .297 / .331 line; colon (who was only making his 6th big-league start at the time of this at-bat) went 4-7 that year with a 5.65 era. the following year colon was an all-star, and the year after that a top-5 vote-getter in the cy young polling; defelice never got any better than what he was in 1997.
p.s. --- does it mean anything that 4 of these 14 at-bats were taken by catchers? (superior ability to think along w/ the pitch calls and anticipate the pitch?) ok, probably not. but how does cody mckay hang for 13 pitches against any hurler? kinda weird that has at-bat took place 4 years to the day before ankiel's.
alright, enough about that. a few other thoughts this morning:
- i disagreed w/ the decision to send wainwright back out there in the 8th, and particularly the decision to let him face ryan braun as the potential tying run. adam’s location was way off that inning; he went to 3 balls on the leadoff man before retiring him, then gave up a hit and a walk; when braun stepped in wainwright was at 113 pitches for the game and 19 for the inning. fortunately, it isn’t necessary to throw braun a strike (he has 0 walks this season); he chased a fastball in off the plate and got himself out. tony must not have liked his options; mcclellan was unavailable, and apparently the overused franklin needed the night off too (at least, i never saw him warming up). that left reyes and thompson as the only options. against the top of the order, tony trusted adam more; adam justified the faith.
- pujols’ catch in the 9th; whew.
- and speaking of that: was anyone warming up behind izzy? the cutter was not cutting, and his regular fastball wasn’t popping (he only threw three of those all inning). but that’s what makes izzy such an unusual closer --- he can fall back on his 3d-best pitch (curveball), which he did against weeks, to get out of trouble. there’ve been a few troubling signs out of him this spring, but at least he’s throwing strikes --- he wasn’t doing that when the hip was bothering him.
- the cardinals’ #8 hitters --- ie, pitchers and pinch-hitters --- rank 12th in the league with a .535 ops, ahead of 3 teams (sf, chicago, and atl) who use position players there. the giants’ #8 hitters have struck out more than the cardinals’ have.
- the cardinals have only reached base via error 3 times this year, tied for last (with the rockies) in the nl. whatever they’ve scored so far, they’ve scored on merit.
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I was gonna bring up Jim Kaat's at-bat
where he fouled off umpteen pitches,but that was probably more than 20 years ago.
almost 10% down
and the Cards lead the league in BA/OBP (at .277/.361) and they sit at #3 in OPS+ and walks (at 117 and 64 or 4.25 walks per game)
Some other team stats...
Larry mentioned the other day that our outfield was leading the league in OPS (.968 as of Tuesday—in his “5 Questions” answers at Brew Crew Ball).
Through yesterday, our outfield was also leading the NL in most out of zone catches (32) and in zone rating (.963). (Our infield is above average in both…..)
The youth movement in the outfield is a fun part of 2008….
9th place hitting
As a counterpart to our 8th-place hitting stats, our 9th place hitters are only managing a .534 OPS, (or one point worse than our pitchers – thanks to ww) but that ranks us as 4th in the NL.
Ironically, the copycat Brewers are getting far and away the best production, almost entirely from Jason Kendall, with a .917 OPS.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
Closer
As the announcers were musing whether Izzy might be hurt, I got to wondering who Tony would pencil in as the closer if he went on the DL. Anyone else thing they might move Reyes into that spot with the heat he was throwing last night? Or do you go to Franklin?
I think it would be Reyes
although he hasn’t been given the opportunity to throw on consecutive days though so he’d need to be weened into the spot a little bit. If not him, then McClellan.
Proud President of the Unofficial Skip Schumaker Fan Club!
(now accepting applications)
motte
I think the TLR and Dunc have enough disdain for Reyes they’d probably fight to get Motte promoted from AAA.
You all know why Mr. Reyes has been pitching?
Scouts have been around specifically to see him pitch. San Francisco, Houston, and St. Louis. Scouts stop showing up, Reyes will not be on the mound. If they think sending him down is a good idea, I’ll tell them they might as well write up his waiver papers. The more they send the message that they don’t want him, the lower the price goes.
Next time a player comes through that’s not a good fit, they should exchange it (QUIETLY) for something that fits.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Damnit, I did it again.......
I apologize to the 1,347,449 VEB folks I’v offended again….I don’t know if there is a delete post button somewhere around here. If you know about it let me know…....
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
i'm truly suprised
that the gritty eckstein isn’t on that list.
I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.
Me too
I bet he has the most 10 or 11 pitch at-bats over the last three years.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 17, 2008 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
common misconception
most long at-bats are taken by disciplined sluggers like lankford, rolen, edmonds — guys who a pitcher has to pitch carefully to. against eckstein they can just pound the strike zone. in his 3 years in st louis, he only had 9 at-bats of 10 pitches or more, and only one of 12 pitches or more.
just to finish the thought
rolen had 11 AB of 10 pitches or more during the same 3 years eckstein was here — and rolen missed the equivalent of an entire season with injuries. jim edmonds had 8 at-bats of 10 pitches or more in 2004 alone.
Interesting
My guess is Fernando Vina might fall into that same common misconception category.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Apr 17, 2008 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
IT always seemed like Edmonds and Rolen
would get into a quick 0-2 hole. Edmonds would swing at the first pitch, Rolen would take the first pitch. It was interesting to watch them ‘cause they didn’t appear to even start working until it was 0-1.
I don't know about Edmonds
I seem to remember him almost always taking the first pitch as well, or at least as much as he swung. But point taken.
oners
I think eckstein has more 1 pitch at bats than anyone in baseball.
Ankiel not new to double digit ABs
A spring training game on 3/26 saw Rick take ten pitches in his first AB (Guthrie of the Orioles was the pitcher), ending in a walk. Second AB was 6 pitches ending in FO to right and third AB was 7 pitches ending in a single and run scored. We remarked about the total of 23 pitches in three ABs. The other good thing about it last night was that the crowd really appreciated the AB and let him know.
By the 13th pitch
we realized that something interesting was going on. The cheers just got louder and louder as it went. By the time Ank walked, Villanueva was at 28 pitches and NO OUTS for the inning. I was already certain it was going to be a winner. Thank you to Izzy for making the evening a little more exciting.
Does that AB qualify as a display of Plate discipline?
The nay sayers who point out Ank can’t hit fourth because of his lack of plate discipline should use that AB as an example of his potential.
"Why does he keep saying that?"
One AB
does not make him a disciplined hitter. It was a great AB, but it was just one AB. Let’s see how it goes for him.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 17, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I disagree
The kid has the quickest learning curve I have ever seen. Really how can you estimate a ceiling for him as a player?
Here's the deal, I'm the best there is, plain and simple, I mean I wake up every morning and I kiss excellence, and nobody can hang with my stuff, uh, you know I'm just a, just a big hairy American winning machine.....
P/PA
Red Blazer—I don’t want to challenge your statement but just want to raise the general question of what a 17 pitch plate appearance means and whether it says much about discipline…
A disciplined hitter:
a) Does not swing at balls
b) May take some strikes to get the “right pitch”
c) Anything else….?
To get to 17 ptiches in a PA, one has to foul off a ton of pitches (minimum = 11, right, before an outcome on the 17th pitch?). Isn’t fouling off pitches a bit of different skill than being disciplined?
In general, I find P/PA hard to interpret as an aggregated number. Some day we may have statistics breaking down P/PA by balls taken, swinging strikes, fouls, etc. Right now it’s kind of mixed up measure. When someone has a low P/PA, you’d also like to someone capture the outcome—getting hits on first pitches is fine, especially if that is the best pitch to hit, even though it does not tire out the pitcher.
A 17 pitch at bat is an amazing thing, and shows some discipline when it yields a walk. But it mainly shows an ability to “foul off” pitches, right?
The purest test of discipline is some ratio of Balls Taken/Balls Thrown, perhaps adjusted in some way for Strikes Taken/Strikes Thrown to avoid rewarding batters for standing there like a lamp post. In statistics, this like a Type I/Type II error and there is some math for this in an old field called Signal Detection Theory…..
Villanueva on the ropes in the first inning
Your post called to mind the Cardinal player who let a struggling Brewer pitcher off the hook in two consecutive games, Troy Glaus. That tells me his slump has gotten into his head. Maybe he needs a few days riding the pines to get his head cleared up.
Conventional wis-dom,
Usually is-dumb.
-Ogden Nash
by BrummerStealsHome on Apr 19, 2008 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
The cool thing about really
long ABs is that it almost doesn’t matter what the final outcome is. Even if Rick had watched strike 3 go by on pitch 17 he would still have done his job.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Apr 17, 2008 10:10 AM EDT reply actions
i would have thought
that more long at bats led to more success, that seems to be the most common thinking anyway. but it appears, at least for our Cardinals long at bats above that that is not the case. in that sample above we only have one hit to go along with 4 walks…
I s’pose it depends on what you consider success. I would think in battles such as those, walks would be just as rewarding
by AdjustedExpectations on Apr 17, 2008 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree completely on Wainwright
I’m starting to get a little concerned about his usage pattern. LaRussa killed Morris and Woody in 2003, the year Izzy was hurt and our bullpen was bad. He clearly doesn’t trust many out there this year and I’m afraid of the workload that’s being heaped on Wainer’s shoulders. I guess I’m more afraid that it’ll continue all season. 2 games w/ high pitch counts aren’t necessarily bad but it may reflect a pattern that he plans to use all season and could have dire consequences for Wainwright and the pitching staff as well.
Tony's in a tough spot
IMO, with the rotation. He trusts Wagonmaker and he alone to go deep into games. He’s our ace, the guy who spares the ‘pen.
Hopefully Lohse goes 7 strong tonight and with Springer coming back next week, Tony’ll have the depth he craves.
I was shocked to see Adam going back out for the 8th ...
I would have put Reyes or Thompson out there, probably Thompson (since Reyes had been used the previous night) ... that’s too many pitches this early in the season for Adam … I’m sure he wanted to go back out, but it was clearly a mistake … he was tired … we don’t need Tony to pull a Dusty Baker on us and over-use our best pitching talent … can you say Prior/Woods? ... I hope he shows more restraint on Adam and faith in his bullpen in the future …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 17, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
poor rotation planning from the brewers?
We saw neither sheets nor suppan in this series. We play them again right after our next series (against the giants, they play cinci). We should see both sups and sheets in that series. The brewers will be seeing both wainright and lohse in the next series. It seems our pitching matchups are better planned.
by Birds on the Matt on Apr 17, 2008 10:16 AM EDT reply actions
they probably weren't setting it for us
they probably want their best pitchers going against the Cubs or some team they expected to be better.
opposite of last year?
I distinctly remember going up against teams top pitching all year last year (coming off a WS win will do that to you, I’m sure). Is it possible the opposite is happening this year since everyone thought we were gonna suck? And could that be a partial explanation for our success this year?
by Birds on the Matt on Apr 17, 2008 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
next week in Milwaukee
Sheets and Suppan will pitch in Cincinnati (4/18 & 4/19), and won’t likely be available for the Cards next week, either.
by baked mcbride on Apr 17, 2008 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Along the line of catchers...
I would imagine that Ricky’s pitching experience might also help him in reading pitchers and thus gaining the advantage to keep an AB going.
On the subject of coincidences, it’s actually not an odd coincidence that McKay’s long AB was on the same date as Ank’s.
There’s a basic explanation of why here, but the short answer is that you have to think about the probability of any 2 of those 17 ABs happening on the same day, and it turns out that for any 14 baseball events, there’s just over a 40% chance that two of them happened on the same day. If we got to 16 long AB’s, it would be an odds-on bet.
by thefutureofamerica on Apr 17, 2008 10:25 AM EDT reply actions
Take it easy in the morning
Man – I’m getting a late start here and haven’t even finished my first cup of coffee.
I’ll just go ahead and agree with you rather than drying to decipher the equations!
This is the ol'
If there are 25 people in a room, what are the odds that 2 of them share a birthday. It’s about even money.
WHAT!?
Are we really discussing historic ‘lengthy at bats’ on the verge of a series sweep? This is really insightful stuff guys. Thanks.
No one talks to the pitcher if he's got a no no going.
I’m just following the same rules.
Doctor, again with this?
Look feel free to choose not to read or put up a fanpost of your own analyzing the importance of the impending early season sweep, but how about you not bash the free content that LBoros, Red Baron and Azruavatar work really hard to give us?
I wasn’t able to take in the game last night and found the analysis interesting. Especially given that Ankiel is sometimes thought of as a free swinger. I would think you can get a good “analysis” of the possibility of a sweep over at stltoday or the cardinals homesite. I, for one, come here to get an alternative and refreshing taken.
by OCCardsFan on Apr 17, 2008 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1,000,000
this is the best Cardinals site on the web, if you dont like what is being written, start your own site. and i dont mean to attack you personally but i have seen multiple comments similar to this lately. the folks that contribute to this site spend a lot of time and energy doing so, and they do it for free, at least, it doesnt cost you anything.
I could be wrong...
But I read that as sarcasm and a way to bring up the sweep into the conversation. Maybe not…I dunno.
I might have thought that too
except as I recall the good doctor also made similar comments on Monday that there was no preview for the upcoming big series with the Brewers.
+1
This is a good example of what a lot of us have been debating furiously.
Does Rick have the plate discipline to hit fourth. We all know he has the power.
"Why does he keep saying that?"
Gonz...
No knock on you my brother, but the randomness of the conversation on this site is what has me coming back. the 17 pitch at bat was the leading conversation I had with my friends, aside from us getting the win. Anyway, The official Cardinals Website and Post Dispatch both have stories on us going for the sweep.
Here's the deal, I'm the best there is, plain and simple, I mean I wake up every morning and I kiss excellence, and nobody can hang with my stuff, uh, you know I'm just a, just a big hairy American winning machine.....
seriously
if the posts don’t interest you, don’t read them. This site has a very large and seemingly growing following, and I’d wager the large majority of us are amazed by the constant stream of original insights. If it’s not for you, go elsewhere, but don’t take up space complaining you don’t like the topic.
YES
The kid has the quickest learning curve I have ever seen. Really how can you estimate a ceiling for him as a player?
Here's the deal, I'm the best there is, plain and simple, I mean I wake up every morning and I kiss excellence, and nobody can hang with my stuff, uh, you know I'm just a, just a big hairy American winning machine.....
this was supposed to be posted on ankiel and his plate discipline
disregard this…..
I put it up top where it is supposed to be
Here's the deal, I'm the best there is, plain and simple, I mean I wake up every morning and I kiss excellence, and nobody can hang with my stuff, uh, you know I'm just a, just a big hairy American winning machine.....
Hey..
C’est la vie. I thought others might agree. I guess not. But if you ask me, Ankiel was just trying to get more camera time.
If you're a troll
then you are the oddest one I have come across yet.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
are you just trolling?
This sort of historical reference and trivia is the essence of many baseball fans. It’s the reason that baseball-reference, the baseball cube, and the like have been so successful.
Look around, trivia isn’t the only thing being discussed here. Feel free to start your own thread. If it’s interesting, you’ll get a good discussion going.
I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.
Just ignore
He is feeding off the fact that so many people are replying. It’s his version of “camera time.”
"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop
by OKCardsfan on Apr 17, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bullpen in the Nineth...
There was NO ONE up and throwing in the bullpen in the ninth inning. Even after Isringhausen was on the ropes, everyone was sitting on their hands. I remarked to my buddy that Izzy was going to finish the 9th inning, regardless of whether it was a save, or a tie, or down by 4 runs.
I hate when LaRussa stops managing after the closer comes in.
Maybe Tony did it right?
By having no one up in the pen, Tony was saying to Izzy…”It’s all on you, WE have faith in your ability”.
Not sure if last week when Izzy blew a save, did they have Reyes warming up behind him? Mind games, sure…. But he got it right.
It’s another W.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 17, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd be interested in seeing that broken down
Under what circumstances has Tony pulled his closer and whether it’s actually different from how other managers roll.
Of course, we’re only allowed to talk about the potential series sweep so we’ll have to leave that for an off-day not preceding a series against a division rival or the bedwetters will get in a snit.
Sometimes
The reasonable idea is to be in a position to fix the mess you’ve made for yourself.
In an odd sort of way it was kind of reassuring to me. Even if Izzy has junk, he’s still accomplishing. Still early days yet and he doesn’t have many innings in.
by AdjustedExpectations on Apr 17, 2008 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Todays lineups
Per the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel:
2B Rickie Weeks
SS J.J. Hardy
LF Ryan Braun
1B Prince Fielder
RF Corey Hart
CF Gabe Gross
C Mike Rivera
3B Craig Counsell
LHP Manny Parra
LF Brian Barton
CF Rick Ankiel
1B Albert Pujols
3B Troy Glaus
RF Ryan Ludwick
C Yadier Molina
2B Aaron Miles
RHP Kyle Lohse
SS Cesar Izturis
Duncan has been hot!
Why set him for Barton? Is Duncan in Tony’s doghouse?
Im just kidding. Im not going to get a chase to watch or listen to the game. And will barely be able to follow it on game day. To much going on at work. I hate afternoon games durring the week.
your high school english teacher
just rolled her eyes.
I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.
Ludwick's hotter
3 HRs in his last 3 games and Tony sits him 2 days in a row. I’m not complaining either way – Tony’s got his work cut out for him with this outfield.
by enoscountry on Apr 17, 2008 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
The answer is obviously that Para is a LHP ...
Barton has a .400/.429/.600/1.029 line and has to start sometime … it’s optimal to play him against a lefty … he’s started every game against LHP so far, so you shouldn’t be too surprised … I don’t think we’ll miss too much having him in there over Duncan … Barton’s numbers are better …
Duncan definately is not in any dog house … his .310/.417/.483/.900 numbers are much better than the average NL starting Left Fielder … I’m sure Tony is in love with him for it … but he can’t hit lefties all that well …
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 17, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Yost gives Kendall the day off
and changes to batting his pitcher 9th….interesting…
"Ninety percent I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey.
The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
- Phillies pitcher Tug McGraw, on his plans for his $75,000 salary
It's interesting to note the CHANGES in the Brewers lineup today ...
2B Rickie Weeks
SS J.J. Hardy
LF Ryan Braun
1B Prince Fielder
RF Corey Hart
CF Gabe Gross
C Mike Rivera
3B Craig Counsell
LHP Manny Parra
Kapler still out with shoulder injury
Pitcher bats 9th
JJ Hardy from 7th slot to 2nd.
Gross from 2nd to 6th
Hall out, Counsell in and batting 8th
Kendall out, Rivera in and batting 7th
Counsell has good numbers .vs Lohse; Rivera’s had mild success …
Go get’em Kyle! ...
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 17, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Another tidbit worth mentioning
A lot of the reason for their success with copy catting the crazy 8 is because Kendall and what he’s done. Hart, batting 6th has done quite well up to this series thus far.
Folks, they’re 1 for 15 in this series thus far. 1 hit, 1 RBI, 3 Ks
As far as I’m concerned that’s commendable on its own.
by AdjustedExpectations on Apr 17, 2008 11:53 AM EDT reply actions
Have we scored them all on our own merit?
We’ve gotten on base on our own but haven’t we scored on a few wild pitches/passed balls?
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 17, 2008 11:59 AM EDT reply actions
VEB for lunch
There was a time in my business career when my weekday lunch focus was on business, clients, deals, women, food and being seen at the right restaurant. While I still am forced to occasionally bear such burdens, my highly preferred method of lunchology these days is a closed door, blackberry and phone turned off, a simple private meal and VEB reading all to myself.
So, to the well intentioned IT professional at SB Nation who chose the noon hour to take the site down for even brief maintenance
DO NOT EVER DO THAT AGAIN
Thank you. You may continue your discussions.
they need to change the lobby card there
that was what they call “unscheduled” maintenance — ie, a server crashed or something and they had to scramble to get it back up. that’s probably a preprogrammed placeholder, but it’s confusing — i’ll send a note to the team.
no problem - thanks
more jesting than aggravation…......have actually been very pleasantly surprised with the mostly seamless transition to our new home
13 more
Saves till Izzy lands on the 300 club
Can you name the other 6 players who wore the Cards uniform sometime in their career who are in that club?
Freebie : The obvious Lee Smith.
by AdjustedExpectations on Apr 17, 2008 12:19 PM EDT reply actions
attempt
Tom Henke
Dennis Eckersley
Rollie Fingers
Bruce Sutter
Todd Worrell (this CANNOT be right…but it seems to make sense to me)
...and I got nothing after this.
checks baseball-reference.com
by mattisnotfrench on Apr 17, 2008 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
whoops
Totally forgot Troy Percival (325). Todd Worrell finished with 256. I forgot to list Lee Smith since it was already given away.
by mattisnotfrench on Apr 17, 2008 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Ol’e Looper is just outside of the top 100 with 105 saves.
by AdjustedExpectations on Apr 17, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Wasn't Rollie a Cards
for two whole days in the off season, then traded? Does that count?
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 17, 2008 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I would assume
God…imagine THAT bullpen.
by mattisnotfrench on Apr 17, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
non save relievers
I was thinking of the best Stl relievers who rarely appeared in save situations – I suppose Ken Dayley would top that list
"wore the Cards uniform"
Wondered if Rollie even got measured?
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 17, 2008 12:34 PM EDT reply actions
To be fair
I was thinking that Izzy is the 6th and typo’ed it in there. If Fingers is counted as a 6th it was a mere technicality that I wasn’t thinking. Completely forgot he was with us.. and no, I don’t think he had the chance to get measured.
by AdjustedExpectations on Apr 17, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember when the Cards got him
I was excited…. then deflated days later….. oh well, what could have been.
per baseball-reference.com
December 8, 1980: Traded by the San Diego Padres with a player to be named later, Bob Shirley, and Gene Tenace to the St. Louis Cardinals for Terry Kennedy, Steve Swisher, Mike Phillips, John Littlefield, John Urrea, Kim Seaman, and Al Olmsted. The San Diego Padres sent Bob Geren (December 10, 1980) to the St. Louis Cardinals to complete the trade.
December 12, 1980: Traded by the St. Louis Cardinals with Ted Simmons and Pete Vuckovich to the Milwaukee Brewers for Sixto Lezcano, David Green, Lary Sorensen, and Dave LaPoint.
Bad trade for Cards to the Brew Crew?
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 17, 2008 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Good trade...
Simmons and Vuckovich both only had one or two decent years after the trade, and neither were able to return any value beyond that for the Brewers..
But the swag we got from the Brewers, while not overwhelming, was eventually swapped for key parts of the ‘80s pennant winners: Lezcano in the Ozzie Smith deal; Green and LaPoint in the Jack Clark trade; and Sorensen in the Lonnie Smith deal.
Littlefield, Urrea, Seaman and Olmsted
With these 4 pitchers, I always envisioned Whitey on the phone to Trader Jack saying, “You want a reliever? Hell, I’ll give you 4 of them”.
Went to Brew Crew Ball
just to see their take on the series but didn’t make it very far because of a link on the main post to an interview with Tim Marchman. Lets just say he has a fairly low opinion of Mr. LaRussa.
ST: Whom do you find more obnoxious: Curt Schilling, Alex Rodriquez or Tony LaRussa?TM: LaRussa is well beyond obnoxious. His lack of contrition for falling asleep while driving because he was drunk is fucking appalling. As far as I’m concerned, that’s no different than spraying a machine gun into a crowd of random people and then saying you don’t see what the problem was because after all no one got hit. That he then tried to bully St. Louis reporters into not asking hard questions after one of his players killed himself driving drunk is absolutely beyond belief. If you can explain to me why Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens are villains while this guy is considered respectable, I’d absolutely love to hear it.
Wow, I wonder when he’ll tell us what he really thinks.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Apr 17, 2008 1:02 PM EDT reply actions
I agree with Marchman
..Tony is embarrassing at times, and can be an ugly face for Cardinal baseball.
And that has nothing to do with his managing——I just wish he was less of a lightining rod.
While his tone is over the top
his overall point is well taken. I can’t say I disagree.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
Screw Tim Marchman ...
Tony’s a great manager and we’re lucky to have him … who give a crap what Marchman thinks about anything? ...
Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 17, 2008 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Regardless of how good a manager he is..
...don’t you think Tony should be a classy and honorable figure as he guides one of sports’ greatest and proudest franchises?
Would you feel the same way about Tony if he got hammered and plowed his car into a kid delivering newspapers at 5am, and then suggested that it wouldn’t have happened if the kid’s bike had a better reflector?
At some point in life character counts, beyond wins and losses.
I don’t know TLR personally and he may be a great guy, but a lot of what he says and does in public is ugly and undignified, in my opinion.
A bit over the top
The point is that he didn’t hurt anyone. Unless you are a Mormon and don’t drink, just about everybody has got behind the wheel at some time in their life when they probably shouldn’t be there. I know I have once or twice. I made it home safe, but something could have happened. Does that mean we all have bad character? Everyone makes mistakes. I think bad character is that you keep repeating them.
by O'Fallon Park on Apr 17, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow
Unless you are a Mormon and don’t drink, just about everybody has got behind the wheel at some time in their life when they probably shouldn’t be there.
I disagree completely. That is wrong on so many levels.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
+1
salvomania
And do the rest of you guys notice that Marchman doesn’t say a thing about TLR’s managing skill? He is talking about very specific episodes when Tony was being an idiot and how his arrogance led him to act in those situations. That is a perfectly legitimate criticism.
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
agree
TLR made a bad decision last year and it just seemed it made him superdefensive. He was just an ass hole last year. Note I think he is a great manager but he is still a complete rectum along with a lot of guys.
The Hancock thing was over the top, with TLR threatning media with a Fungo about asking qeustions about Hancock.
Hancock was wrong for getting behind the wheel and I am glad he did not kill anyone eles besides himself. It would be a true tadgedy if he killed the poor tow truck driver trying to earn a living.
Disagree with Marchman's Comments
I think the TLR drunk driving incident was very bad, and I am in no way condoning it. He should get everything that FL law could throw at him.
But technically, spraying a machine gun into a crowd is reckless disregard for the value of human life and drunk driving is negligence (breaching standard of care). If a homicide results, then the former probably will get you murder while the later is involuntary or negligent manslaughter. Regardless, the mens rea (or mental state) of the two is very different.
Lachman said, " His lack of contrition for falling asleep while driving because he was drunk is fucking appalling."
Here is mlb’s write up about TLR’s lack of contrition:
Not long after the game, La Russa addressed reporters and apologized for the incident.
“Last night’s situation is the opposite of feeling good. It was an embarrassment, so I apologize to anyone that’s close to me, members of the Cardinals organization, our fans. I regret it. I take responsibility, and I’m not sure there’s anything else I can say.”
According to the police news release, the manager “was cooperative throughout the investigation.”
I don’t think Lachman’s comment on TLR was very fair-minded.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Apr 17, 2008 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Prince Fielder
will never hit an inside the park home run again.
Here's the deal, I'm the best there is, plain and simple, I mean I wake up every morning and I kiss excellence, and nobody can hang with my stuff, uh, you know I'm just a, just a big hairy American winning machine.....
great statisitics
wow, what a relevant set of statistics you have posted in the last couple of days. if Coover had seen these, he never would have written ‘the universl baseball assn,etc’
in 1948, musial led the national league in hitting, hits, singles, doubles triples rbi’s, and finished second to mize and kiner (i think) by one home run. that, my boy, is a statistic to conjure with!
posting a comment is much too difficult for me so i probably wont write again. i’ll bet you will be inconsolable.
miguel gonzales, (going thru a series of signs)
p.s. my memory tells me (probably wrong) that luke appling had a longer at-bat by a couple,in the late thirties or early forties).
Huh?
"I believe he’s been reincarnated, that he played before, in the twenties and thirties, and he’s back to prove something." - Former teammate Mark McGwire about Albert Pujols
EVIDENT THE WASH!!
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
this is his SECOND tommy john surgery
good stuff as always—but remember he already had a previous TJ, in 2003. From what I’ve read, I’m pretty sure that, on the whole, performance outcomes after SECOND tjs are generally much worse than firsts.
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