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good discussion going over in Hardcore Legend’s FanPost about the cards’ search for a cleanup hitter --- ~50 comments and counting. a number of the commenters commended HL for the depth of the analysis, and i’d like to reinforce that. this is an example of what the FanPost section is meant for --- something that’s well thought-out and researched, and that offers a ton of meat for discussion. far too many of our FanPosts are shallow toss-offs without anything behind them --- "hey guys, what do you think of player X?" half the FanPosts currently running on the front page drew fewer than 10 comments --- ie, they didn’t generate any discussion. what’s the harm in that, you ask? dud FanPosts push other, better FanPosts --- ones that are generating discussion --- off the front page.

i’m not suggesting that every FanPost has to be as heavy-duty as HL’s --- that’s a high standard to meet. but i’d like to have more of them where the author thought his/her subject over and maybe did a little research before posting --- as opposed to just tossing something out there on a whim. FanPosts of the former type add a lot to the site; the latter just clutter it up.

bernie miklasz points out in his column this morning that the cardinal rotation started off just as hot in 2007 as it has in 2008. somebody made a similar point in one of the game threads over the weekend. i did a little addin’ up to flesh out the comparison. through 13 games:

W-L ERA IP H BB SO HR QS
2008 7-2 3.42 76.1 77 19 55  7  5
2007 4-7 3.35 80.2 71 29 50  4  9

again, we’re looking at starting pitchers only. this year’s rotation has a much better k/bb ratio (nearly 3 to 1, truly outstanding), but last year’s came out of the gate throwing more innings, allowing fewer hits and fewer homers, and --- most telling --- delivering quality starts ("QS" in the table) more reliably. (even randy keisler threw a quality start in the first 13 games of 2007.) the rotation had a much worse won-loss last year for a simple reason: the offense totaled only 42 runs in the first 13 games, vs the 60 runs the 2008 offense has backed the staff with. last year’s hitters only scored 4 or more runs in 3 of the first 13 games; this year’s team has scored 4 or more 8 times. a few more numbers, for the sabermetrically inclined:

FIP AVG OBP SLG SC WPA
2008 3.82 .265 .314 .423 53.2 +.08
2007 3.91 .243 .319 .342 53.9 +.04

"SC" stands for "game score"; the starters avg game score was slightly higher last year, and their slash lines were much, much better; FIP tilts slightly to the 2008 rotation, a reflection of its stellar k/bb ratio so far.

but that leads me to a final comparison --- a hopeful one --- and then i promise i’ll leave last year behind. the 2007 rotation had allowed a BABIP of just .276 through 13 games --- an unsustainably low figure, one that would have told us (had we checked) that the starters couldn’t go on pitching at that level; more hits were bound to start falling. (for those unfamiliar with the concept of BABIP, there are explanations here and here.) this year’s rotation has a BABIP of .303 so far, which is about an average figure. so this year’s good start rests on a firmer foundation than last year’s; it’s more squarely centered on ability than on random chance. of course, we’ve now got the lame-winged pineiro and mulder returning to duty, rendering these figures somewhat meaningless; the next 13 games will probably be more predictive of the staff’s future performance than the 13 just completed.

some thoughts about pineiro and wellemeyer after the jump.

is pineiro just rusty, or might he still be impaired? according to gameday, he didn’t throw as hard yesterday as he did last year (here i go with last year again). he threw 34 fastballs vs the giants at an average speed of 88.8 miles an hour, with a top speed of only 90 mph; in september 2007, gameday was clocking his fastball in the low 90s, averaging about 91 and getting as high as 93. before we conclude anything from this, it’s well known that the gameday readouts vary slightly from ballpark to ballpark; it’s possible the system is just a little slow at san francisco. but i doubt the effect is more than a half-mile an hour. (for some context, gameday had wellemeyer’s fastball averaging 91.8 mph in his first two starts, at stl and hou; in san fran, it averaged 91.4). so either pineiro was rushed out there before he was ready (by the cardinals? never!), or --- a worse scenario --- his shoulder is as good as it’s gonna get, in which case we shouldn’t expect him to throw it any better than he did yesterday.

since i’ve dragged wellemeyer into the discussion, let me turn to him for a second. yesterday houstoncardinal aptly noted that in his three 2008 starts wellemeyer has faded badly after 75 pitches. in each of his last two starts, welley yielded two homers in his final inning on the mound. i wondered whether his fastball gets appreciably slower as the game goes on. and here’s the answer, using gameday figures:

innspd
1st 92.45
2nd 91.56
3rd 91.22
4th 91.22
5th 91.29
6th+ 91.05

only 3 games, but that’s a pretty steady pattern. the 3d inning corresponds to roughly the 50-pitch mark for welley; through 50 pitches, opposing batters are hitting .161 and slugging .226 against todd. after 50 pitches they’re hitting .273 and slugging .727 against him. i’ve been surprised by wellemeyer’s performance so far this year, and as houstoncardinal notes it’s all due to strike-throwing --- when wellemeyer keeps it over the plate, he can dominate. but the jury’s still out regarding his long-term suitability for the rotation.

final thought --- i should note that only 1 of the 5 homers he’s allowed so far came off a fastball --- that was the one matt cain hit. two of the others came off changeups, and two off sliders.

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Re: Pineiro:

I believe this was a case of just starting to early. Last year I would have agreed to it. This year, Thompson was throwing good enough to afford Pineiro a second rehab start. From my understanding of Pineiro's injury, it was never something that impeded his throwing. It was a soreness affer he threw.

Re: Wellemeyer

That is really good to know that. Welly's fast ball losing nearly 1.5 mph from start to finish could very well be the reason he gets hit hard in later innings. Which is a good thing when you consider that the alterternative is just hitters getting a good look at his stuff.

I say this because that is an issue with stanima. And that should improve a little with each outing he has.

by Evilfrog on Apr 14, 2008 8:47 AM EDT   0 recs

Viva -El Pineiro

modus operandi n : an unvarying or habitual method of procedure

Did we learn nothing from Mark Mulder? Watching the game, this kept gnawing at me, and I would attempt to push it to the back of my mind. But, on an off-day (Monday no less), doing some Monday morning QB-ing seems in order. Why rush -El Pineiro back?

by bgh on Apr 14, 2008 9:04 AM EDT   0 recs

Supplement

Mulder's first 2007 start vs. Chicago:
3 IP / 7 H / 4 R / 4 ER / 1 HR / 3 BB / 58 Pitches

Mulder's second 2007 start vs. Cincy:
4 IP / 7 H / 7 R / 2 HR / 3 BB / 79 Pitches

El Pineiro's first 2008 start vs. San Fran:
3.2 IP / 10 H / 6 R / 6 ER / 0 BB / 68 Pitches

by bgh on Apr 14, 2008 9:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Mulder's velocity

LB, how did Mulder's pitch velocity compare to his pre-injury pitch velocity? Is it similar to Pineiro's fall-off?

by bgh on Apr 14, 2008 9:19 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Now, this is without looking anything up...

But if I remember correctly, Mulder's issues were well-documented before this. There was of course, the website that breaks down his mechanics in Oakland and in St. Louis and why this might be, and how it's affecting his ability to get batters out.

Having said that, I believe because Mulder's problems go back originally to the hip thing, you'd almost have to go back to Oakland to truly judge where Mulder was "pre-injury" which I believe had him hanging around in the low 90s, whereas since, I believe he'd been closer to the mid 80s. Of course, like I said, this is all from memory.

by mtalken on Apr 14, 2008 1:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

4 of Piniero's earned runs

should have been unearned, though. If Rico catches that easy 2-out ground ball, the big inning doesn't happen. And the only ball hit hard in that entire rally was the home run.

There was also a soft ground ball three feet to duncan's right that he didn't get to that should have ended the inning.

And I awoke in California, far far from Spancilhill...

by SleepyCA on Apr 14, 2008 12:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That was my thought

BGH. Why was Pinero rushed back for a San Francisco start instead of next week at home...or really, why not another AAA start. IMO Pineiro shouldn't have been throwing over 86 to 89 even if could better that. He simply hasn't thrown enough so far.

by ridgesee on Apr 14, 2008 10:21 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I said something below

on this.

First, I don't think AAA matches Spring Training in terms of preparation for game speed. Piniero's going to be rusty no matter what.

Second, you start him now his second start is also against lowly SF - a team we can beat more than likely. You wait a week or two and he faces the Cubs, Brewers, Astros, Reds, and away at COL for his second and third start - not pleasant places to break in and losses that could hurt us in the division standings.

by enoscountry on Apr 14, 2008 10:36 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It's not a question of intensity, it's a question of readiness--whether or not Pineiro's shoulder is up to throwing big league innings both in terms of rehab and stamina. Gradually building stamina in the minor leagues, similar to Spring Training, rather than baptism by Major League fire, seems to make the most sense. Plus, it would seem that a true competitor would be less apt to ease into things than to go all out for the win.

Responding to your second point, all losses hurt us in division standings. Those against division foes more than those against non-division foes. Both the Cubs and Brewers won on Sunday. We lost--splitting a series with the lowly Giants. This is a game that Pineiro did not have to start and looked unready for, which begs the question: Why did he start yesterday?

by bgh on Apr 14, 2008 12:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Because Joel and the Memphis staff

convinced LaDuncan he was "good to go"... quoting Joe Strauss' article:

Joel Pineiro arrived at Houston's Minute Maid Park on Wednesday insisting to manager Tony La Russa and pitching coach Dave Duncan that there was more reason for him to begin his major-league season than to make a second rehab start at some minor-league outpost.

Pineiro's six innings Tuesday for Class AAA Memphis had gone well, he said. The right shoulder that curtailed his spring training was fine. He had recovered quickly. Just give him the ball.

A further quote:

He threw a minor-league game in spring training and appeared again in extended spring before starting at New Orleans. Duncan initially suggested the possibility of Pineiro making at least two rehab starts but last Tuesday's line, reports from the Memphis coaching staff and Pineiro's lobbying proved persuasive.

"I though he'd be sharper than that, otherwise I wouldn't have pitched him," La Russa said. "But I've seen other pitchers go out there on a particular day and have location problems."

He didn't pitch well, but given the information they had, I can't fault either Tony or Duncan for pitching Piniero yesterday.

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Apr 14, 2008 12:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He essentially missed Spring Training

He made one appearance, then went to the DL. Cardinal starters made five or six appearances in Spring Training this year, easing their way into pitching form. He made three appearances coming off of injury. I don't see any reason not to make him take another minor league start. It's symptomatic of a "rush" mentality with injured players that has come back to bite us more than once. To me, Pineiro did not look ready to pitch in the big leagues on Sunday.

What's more, it is not the pitcher's decision to make. Of course, he is going to say he is ready to go. It's the manager's job to step back and look at the long-term, something that TLR should be embarassed about not doing with Mark Mulder. Another rehab start does not hurt a thing and is probably in both the club's and El Pineiro's best interests. He is, after all a 2-year, $18M investment.

by bgh on Apr 14, 2008 12:45 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

losses against in-division rivals

cost us a certain 1 game deficit to them in standings. Loses against out-of-division foes cost us .6 games in the standings if you assume the end-of-season division winner has a .6 winning percentage.

by enoscountry on Apr 14, 2008 1:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks

...all losses hurt us in division standings. Those against division foes more than those against non-division foes.

Now, that is exactly how much. I'd have said, one game vs. one-half of a game in the standings.

by bgh on Apr 14, 2008 3:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

PInata

Throwing Pineiro against SF's AAA offense in that spacious park was not the worst of all ideas, IMO. Unfortunately, Pineiro was more a Pinata after his first time through the order. His velocity was OK--probably off peak by 1-2 MPH. My impression was that he simply was wild in the zone. It would not have mattered where he pitched his first game back.

by Hungry Jack on Apr 14, 2008 2:29 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

When, as opposed to where

That was kind of my point: give him another minor league start to build stamina and refine mechanics.

by bgh on Apr 14, 2008 3:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He was also a victim of suspect defense

I was at the game, and it seemed that there were at least 2 different occasions where Rico and Miles let him down... (and my husband and I mentioned more than once how much we miss Rolens defense... ah well, it is what it is)

When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say?

by RosevilleRedbird on Apr 14, 2008 3:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Even if Rolen were still on the Cards,

you'd still be missing his defense. He hasn't played an out this regular season b/c he is on the DL...again.

by bgh on Apr 14, 2008 4:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You can't assume he'd break his finger

in Cardinals camp.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 14, 2008 4:59 PM EDT to parent up   1 recs

You can't assume he wouldn't either

With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch

by joker24 on Apr 14, 2008 5:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Really?

We can't assume he wouldn't suffer the same freak accident if he were located on a different field with a different team?

Are you arguing that the Fates exist and they conspired to break Rolen's finger this spring and therefore he couldn't have avoided it? That's a rather interesting position to try to take.

I would argue that the very nature of a freak accident is that it is not predictable and that we most certainly CAN assume it wouldn't have happened if even the tiniest of variables were different. I would even hazard a guess that MIT Mathematician and Meteorologist Edward Norton Lorenz would also tend to agree it would be incredibly unlikely, since his theories state that "small changes in initial conditions produce large changes in the long-term outcome."

Even if we ignore chaos theory and use a simple probabilistic model, how often do third basemen practicing routine drills fracture their finger and have a nail ripped off? Are you claiming this is a regular occurrence and therefore should be readily expected?

Sorry, but your argument smacks of spite rather than cogent thought. You're much better off sticking to the slightly more defensible position of "well, even if he WERE here and healthy he would still suck" sort of thing.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Apr 14, 2008 6:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You missed the boat on that one

I'm saying we can't assume he wouldn't have had that or any other freak injury...or some other non-freak injury from having continued to play in the spring training games e.g. shoulder tightening up, hammy pull whatever....you can't assume he would be healthy and to say "oh well he would be playing if he was on the Cardinals and not the Jays because that was one crazy injury" is at best improper. This guy isn't exactly the model of durability the past 3 years and that shoulder appeared to be pretty much shot.

Regardless, it's just dumb to bring up Rolen period anymore. He's not on the team. He will not be on the team. His status is irrelevant to the current Cardinals' situation.

With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch

by joker24 on Apr 14, 2008 6:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It is kind of telling

that Edmonds and Rolen both landed on the DL during ST. Of course it's random. Of course those specific injuries wouldn't have happened if they were with us. But, knowing those two, something else would've happened instead.

Either way, no point worrying about it. Rolen's gone; Glaus is here. Rolen's hurt; Glaus isn't. The ridiculous feud with LaRussa is over.

by spants on Apr 14, 2008 6:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Glaus hasn't been rolen

but he's been a solid defensive 3B. After last night's game, why can't we wax poetic about what would have happened if Glaus was playing?

"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams

by Valatan on Apr 14, 2008 6:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

AAA start

wouldn't be that much different then facing the Giants, would it?

by RedbirdRay on Apr 14, 2008 9:12 AM EDT   0 recs

No, not really

but aren't we going after wins not losses at the ML level and isn't it best to make sure you have best possible option on the mound...especially when you have other options.

by ridgesee on Apr 14, 2008 10:32 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Musings

Wellemeyer is a max-effort guy. Don't expect alot of stamina from a guy like that. He will go back to the bullpen when the other starters get healthy.

Aren't all of you glad we didn't waste a ton of money on Andruw Jones?

I am still not sure what the rush was to get Piniero back in there. Many of us said this before he pitched. He could have used a couple more rehab starts. Thompson was pitching fine.

I am a big fan of Ludwick and want to see him everyday. Duncan's hitting is coming around, but Ludwick is the better all-around player.

Do any of you think it was a coincidence that Duncan played first and batted in the middle of the order against the Giants Sunday??? Maybe they would trade us that Bowker dude that killed us all weekend.

Skippy just keeps plugging away. We all want to replace him, but he just does all the little things so well. I am really becoming a fan of Brian Barton. The speed, the plate discipline, the gap power, the enthusiasm...watching that guy go home to 3rd is almost McGee-esque.

The umpire cost the Cards that game on Sunday, if the Cards miss the playoffs by one game, I suggest we mail 1 million copies of those poor strike 3 calls on Duncan and Ludwick to that guy's house.

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Apr 14, 2008 9:14 AM EDT   0 recs

Andruw Jones.

Yes. Yes I am. Though man...We would have six OFs!

Any chance that skippy can play second?

by Evilfrog on Apr 14, 2008 9:21 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm glad you said that Elvis

the two third strikes called on Duncan and Ludwick in the 9th weren't even close enough to be given. There were several others also.

by ridgesee on Apr 14, 2008 10:38 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Skippy playing 2nd

strange.. I have had that same thought. He started as a SS. I bet if the Cards didn't have Kennedy on contract for 2 more years, that conversion would have been attempted this ST.

by ridgesee on Apr 14, 2008 10:43 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i forgot that

i wouldn't be against him at short although iz2 has been a suprise. Well maybe not a suprise, but workable.

"Textbooks are Soviet propaganda" - Rev. Jerry Falwell

by elirock83 on Apr 14, 2008 12:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

edit myself

i mean in a blow out or next spring

"Textbooks are Soviet propaganda" - Rev. Jerry Falwell

by elirock83 on Apr 14, 2008 12:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You have a point about the umpiring...

but (sigh) umpires miss calls; balls take bad hops; Murphy's Law applies. Let it go, and move on (a philosophy better suited to players than to fans... we can mutter into our beverages about that rotten so-and-so all we want!)

It looked like somebody had run a "live" electrical wire through the entire Cards' dugout on the first "Strike Three"... Everybody on the bench was up and hollerin'! Oh, well...

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Apr 14, 2008 12:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Chemistry

You got to like the early year energy this team has. Youth movement? Veteran leadership? Combo of course.

I like it a lot.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 14, 2008 1:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Climate

I'm going to argue that the competitive climate of the Cards - young guys fighting for a spot well into the regular season, well-traveled vets out to prove they can hack it in high-profile positions, etc. - has a bit more to do with the on field performance than whether or not these guys like each other.

In the end, these guys are professionals. I would think that they would take an opportunity to prove themselves over someone they'd like to have a beer with any day. Though I think we can all agree that, for whatever reason, you have to love what you see on the field from our Redbirds right now.

+1 on the youth movement/vet leadership combo. I like the balance of where the performances are coming from on this year's team.

"Well, folks, this game began as a tiny worm and is blossoming into a large cobra." - Mike "The Moon Man" Shannon

by Tudor's Electric Fan on Apr 14, 2008 2:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm with you 100%

This team may not continue on this path of success consistently, but they have proven that they will be awfully fun to watch. They are definately a max-effort team that really squeezes every little drop of production out of what they have.

To those of us here that were fans of blowing up the entire team (I believe there were even threads regarding the trade of Pujols) so we can dedicate ourselves to the youth movement fully, I say with the utmost respect, "PEESHAW!"

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Apr 14, 2008 4:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes, and I think when all is said

and done, in some ways this is the kind of year that TLR really revels in. For all of the tactical innovations (or "bizarro moves," depending on your perspective) that TLR has brought to MLB, the thing that has really carried him to such a long career is his intensity and hard-driving motivational approach. It ain't tactics that make his teams such hard-driving units, it's emotion and motivation. And a team with spotty talent that is given little chance to compete ... that's a challenge to Tony's honor, and must be responded to forcefully.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Apr 14, 2008 4:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Also, OL Goaler

if Duncan and Ludwick had have swung and missed those 2 strike pitches, a lot of us would yelled, "he swings at too many bad pitches, swung at ball four, a walk is as good as hit, shouldn't swung." Which does prove that umpires do have an influence and put pressure on hitters in 2 strike situations

by ridgesee on Apr 14, 2008 2:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I know I would have

Been all over Duncan if he would have swung at that pitch.

by Evilfrog on Apr 14, 2008 2:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

but they didn't swing

Which was the right thing to do. Bad habits to be "thinking" about what the umpire "might" do. It's either a decent pitch to hit or not. They made the right choice. "Let it go" seems to be the right attitude about this. Let it go.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Apr 14, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Reminds me of a good article I reread on Greg Maddux

earlier this morning

"Maddux, who grew up in Las Vegas, is a formidable poker player. Amarillo Slim, former winner of the World Series of Poker, once said: "The results of one particular game doesn't mean a damn thing, and that's why one of my mantras has always been 'decisions, not results.' Do the right thing enough times and the results will take care of themselves in the long run." Maddux has had a long run pitching the way Slim played. But all runs end, so this year pay particular attention to the most artistic pitcher of the lively-ball era."

Well who the hell can see forever?

by Alxfritz on Apr 15, 2008 1:46 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That umpire's bad call on Ludwick

took us from a 20% chance to win the game down to a 4% chance, according to the win expectancy calculator. That's a significant decrease on a missed call.

by tinstl on Apr 14, 2008 9:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pineiro

I didn't think Joel was that bad yesterday . . . if he lets the grounder go through instead of trying to kick save it, the big inning ends before all the big damage. or if rico makes the play at third . . . then the inning is much less big. if Pineiro had pitched five innings and given up 3 runs, we would have counted that as a decent first start and return after rehab.

who will be the new MV3?

by sprfldcard on Apr 14, 2008 9:28 AM EDT   0 recs

I didnt get to see the game

And only got to hear a little bit on the radio. Running around all day and visting family. (who were watching Star Wars instead of the Cardinals!). That's my disclaimer.

But I did catch the Bowker homerun on the radio. From what Rooney was saying that was a good pitch. I little low and a little instead. Right where Yadi wanted it. More of result of not knowing how to pitch a new guy than a mistake.

by Evilfrog on Apr 14, 2008 9:31 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It was a fastball

belt-high on the inner half. It should have been hit hard and it was. Surely Yadi didn't want it there. He wanted it in off the plate but it tailed back over the inner half -- a definite hitter's pitch.

by houstoncardinal on Apr 14, 2008 11:31 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pinerio

got a bad break on a ball that Washington should have made for the 3rd out. He kinda' fell apart after that. I also wondered with today off, really was it necessary to rest Pujols and Glaus. The Cards should have gone after this game.

by ridgesee on Apr 14, 2008 10:46 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I believe

Tony has stated that Pujols will be getting a few days off right before an off day. To give him two days rest. They might have been looking ahead to the Brewers too.

by Evilfrog on Apr 14, 2008 11:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That makes sense, evilfrog

and I.m sure Pujols would have said no I want to play if he didn't feel like he needed the extra day. Pujols just seems to be that kind of guy.

by ridgesee on Apr 14, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Would it be possible

For Welley to hold something back in the early going? throw morw braking stuff in the early innings.or take something off the fastball? Then when the 6th rolls around and the hitters are seeing him for the third time he has a little something he can ADD to the fastball. I am caertainly no pitching coach and my question is sincere not retorical.
Lets give Pinerio another start and see. That's been my big suggestion about everything this year. Lets wait and see!

by nybirdfan on Apr 14, 2008 9:30 AM EDT   0 recs

I don't think that's the most effective strategy ...

Let Welly go all out for 5 innings ... then replace him with another starter (Reyes or Thompson) for 2-3 innings before he fades ...

Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...

by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 14, 2008 9:38 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

OR...

Let Welly go all out for 2-3 innings but more frequently...as a reliever.

Being a starter really doesn't seem to suit him (assuming, of course, that there are other equally effective arms available that CAN go 6+ innings without having the wheels fall off). I appreciate his efforts in his few starts, but a consistent "5 inning starter" should really be a setup guy or emergency/long reliever.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Apr 14, 2008 3:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If he continues to throw strikes with his velocity, will he not look like a good setup man?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Apr 14, 2008 4:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Absolutely

I think Welly would make an excellent 7th-8th inning guy if his current level of control holds and he continues to miss bats. He could be this year's Springer PLUS Franklin, which would be nice. I suppose if they put Thompson into the long reliever role, that would be the next logical spot for Welly.

However, it's probably still a little too early to tell whether or not he's really turned a corner with regard to his location/control or if he is simply overperforming.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Apr 14, 2008 5:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pineiro goes from 4 starter to 7 starter ...

I was afraid the 2nd phase starters would come in and louse things up, and that's what happened ... Our starters had a great thing going, and Pineiro comes in and adds a full run to our starters ERA ... I'd give him one more chance, then swap him out with Thompson, who clearly seems to be a better pitcher ...

Wellemeyer is good for 5, sometimes 6 innings ... every start he makes needs to be seen by Tony as a tandem start ... put him on a 5-6 inning limit, or 70-75 pitch count limit, and them put Reyes or Thompson/Pineiro in there after him for 2-3 more ... both Thompson and Pineiro (from what I saw yesterday) should be treated the same way ... We should be making tandem starts with these three pitchers ...

Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...

by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 14, 2008 9:35 AM EDT   0 recs

With ARey and Thompson...

now in the bullpen, this makes for a pretty decent idea. You don't have to necessarily limit the guys to so many pitches/innings, but when they start to falter have Thompson and or ARey getting ready. I'm thinking Wellemeyer/Thompson and Piniero/Reyes. Making sure Reyes and Thompson are rested enough to go 3+ innings.

by cardzfanbub on Apr 14, 2008 9:47 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I remember reading that TLR tried something like this in Oakland

Except it was two guys going 3-4 innings

With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch

by joker24 on Apr 14, 2008 10:05 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

After one start he has loused things up

how is Pineiro that much worse than what Thompson was in Houston? The only difference I can find is that the rocket shots off of Thompson found people's gloves, where as Pineiro's found open space.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 14, 2008 11:13 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

pineiro's hits

alot of them weren't hard hit in SF's big inning, just little bloops. Thompson could have got rocked in houston but he had a lil more luck

"Textbooks are Soviet propaganda" - Rev. Jerry Falwell

by elirock83 on Apr 14, 2008 12:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Telling stuff on Wellemeyer

it's interesting that he's given up 2 HR's he's given up have been on changeups -- his 3rd best pitch. That's the one he's going to have to improve if he's going to make it as a starter.

I said yesterday that, if his problems resulted from tiring and lack of stamina, that could probably be improved upon. Throughout the course of the season, throwing moer pitches will do that. If his problems are that his 3rd pitch just isn't good enough or that hitters getting their 3rd look at him are able to tee-off, that's a much bigger issue.

LB's data isn't conclusive either way. The fastball data suggests he is tiring and that, perhaps by throwing more, his stamina might be increased, thus making the fastball faster in the later innings. However, if his changeup is the problem, and the fact that 4 of his 5 homers have come on pitches OTHER than his fastball, these may indicate problems that stamina can't fix -- a poor 3rd pitch or the ability of hitters to make adjustments the 3rd time through. I suppose time will tell.

by houstoncardinal on Apr 14, 2008 10:12 AM EDT   0 recs

The first thing that goes

when a pitcher starts to tire is location. I think the common trait on all five HRs is he left the pitch in the middle of the plate. I don't think it is a loss of velocity issue at all. The biggest dropoff is from the first inning to the second inning and he is only .5mph slower in the 6th+ than in the 2nd.

Just need a quicker hook with him unless he can develop more stamina.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Apr 14, 2008 11:06 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If hitters are figuring out your 3rd best pitch

the 3rd time through, wouldn't it be wise for your pitching coach/catcher to realize that and have you go those final 25 pitches (75+) just as a fastball/slider guy? I would think that if you are going to get beat when tired out there, get beat with your best pitches.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 14, 2008 11:15 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

On Pineiro and the Schedule

He may have come up too early but I think it's clear that Tony wanted him to get a couple starts in against teams that aren't in our division.

He comes up now his first 2 starts are against the young SF team (he faces them again this weekend at home). You wait a week or two and he ends up facing the Brewers, Reds, Astros, or Flubs in his first couple starts.

I'd have it this way where we give Pineiro a chance to get up to game speed against the poor SF team rather than a team we might need to beat within the division.

by enoscountry on Apr 14, 2008 10:32 AM EDT   0 recs

Excellent point ...

I didn't realize that ... Tony that crafty thinker ... if Pineiro can't get it done in a second start against this hapless SF team, then he definately belongs in the pen ... otherwise MIL, CIN, HOU, CHI will eat him alive ...

Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...

by Cardinals4Ever on Apr 14, 2008 10:48 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

El Pineiro is coming off of an injury, don't forget

If he is physically not read to pitch in the big leagues, then strategy means very little.

by bgh on Apr 14, 2008 12:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

FanPosts suggestion

Is there any chance the system could be modified so that a FanPost gets bumped/kicked to the top of the page every time a comment is made?

by bailorg on Apr 14, 2008 10:40 AM EDT   0 recs