TheĀ upside of upside
Anthony Reyes.
Just kidding. I'm not going to talk about Mr. Reyes today although I imagine some of you cringed a bit just now.
About a week ago, Kindred made a comment questioning the validity of the term upside and likening it to "grit". My point isn't to call out Kindred, so I hope he can forgive me for using him as an example, because the questions that he raises are worthwhile to consider. At what point does the term upside become so nebulous that we're discussing intangibles that won't ever really be resolved? Does that conversation inevitably boil down to a my-opinion-your-opinion back and forth that isn't reconcilable? I don't think there are definite answers to either of those questions but given how often I use the term upside, I wanted to flesh out the concept.
If ylwe're going to pick the word most synonymous with upside, it's probably potential. The untapped latent ability of young(er) players to rapidly improve upon their established true talent level. Something of a perfect world scenario for that player, where everything that we can reasonably expect to go right does. There are two words that I want to pick up on there to begin: young and reasonably.
Sometimes the word upside gets used during the free agent period. I'm sure I've said something to the effect of "Barry Bonds has more upside than Chris Duncan." or it's written equivalent. The more I consider what upside is, the more I've come to think that statement is wrong. Barry Bonds has an established level of true talent. We have a reasonable idea what we should expect from him as a player. There isn't any reason to expect a sudden increase in productivity (let's leave aside the steroid comments) that we would associate with a younger player's game progressing. So a more accurate comparison would be "Barry Bonds is likely to be the better player but Chris Duncan has some upside that could significantly improve upon his most likely performance."
The second word is both more important and more difficult to isolate. What can we reasonably expect to go right? Maybe it's my time at Future Redbirds that's caused me to struggle with this question for the last week but it's a beast. Is it reasonable to expect Tyler Greene to ever hit for average? For Adam Ottavino to suddenly discover a plus changeup? For Daryl Jones to convert his tools to productivity? Of course, those questions and the ambiguity of their answers are what makes prospect watching and young MLB players so interesting and so hotly debated.
For hitters, there seems to be an easier visible correlation between tools and on the field productivity. When you see a player like Daryl Jones, you notice the speed; you notice the strength. The raw athleticism that exists does make it reasonable to anticipate that he could someday just "get it" for lack of a better term and that strength could turn into homeruns. The speed could turn into stolen bases or stretching a single into a double. I use Jones as an example because he's quite possibly the best athlete in the farm system (yes, better than Rasmus) but he's worlds away from translating that into real baseball production. The point is, the upside with Jones is tremendous but the gap between what he is and what he could be is also substantial.
The flip side of that is considering the scenarios that aren't realistic expectations. It's probably not reasonable to expect someone like Chris Duncan to suddenly stop striking out. (I don't have the traditional abhorrence of strikeouts but work with me here.) He's shown that proclivity and that he can get fooled by breaking pitches at times. There isn't a reasonable explanation for why he would suddenly cut his strikeouts in half, for example. That's not a slam on Duncan, just an attempt to point out the limits of his upside. He does represent upside defensively; as he plays more games in left field there's some valid reasons to think that he could improve on his (terrible) defensive performances from the last couple.
Pitchers are another situation altogether. The addition of a new pitch can radically alter a player's game and, using an extreme example, make them a Hall of Fame pitcher (see: Sutter, Bruce). That said, it doesn't happen often. Jason Motte isn't likely to suddenly add a wicked curveball to his arsenal. I doubt we'll see Brad Thompson exhibit a plus changeup this season. When a pitcher does make the leap that way, it's fantastic but I don't consider it realistic to forecast a player adding a brand new above average pitch.
But improving on a pitch they already have, that's upside. One of my favorite new sites is Saber-scouting. Two individuals who have worked for MLB previously (one as a scout) publishing their analysis of different players and prospects. Here's a recent scouting report on Johnny Cueto, the Red's pitching prospect who has made some noise recently surpassing Homer Bailey in their depth chart. Notice that they grade out the future potential of the pitches. As pitchers get a better feel for their secondary offerings, you'd expect improvement. That's upside.
The easiest example of pitching upside that comes to my mind is velocity. There are certain players who because of age, build and work ethic, are expected to add velocity as they get older. High School pitchers aren't always drafted for their present velocity but for the potential that they could add another 2-3mph on top of that. Again, a reasonable expectation of latent potential which is separate from their established level of talent.
But what's the benefit of upside? We've spent all this time thinking about how to define it and what it could be, what it can't be, and what it probably shouldn't be . . . but why care? Let's consider two hypothetical players: Player A and Player B. There established talent levels would cause us to expect both of them to hit .280/.350/.475 next season and play comparable defense to one another. Player A is 32 and Player B is 22. Player B is still maturing somewhat as a hitter and even adding some muscle as he finishes growing. There's reason to believe that Player B will hit substantially better than his most likely projection but little reason to believe the same for A. Of course, you are going to pick Player B.
Consider it stacking the deck in your favor. The more upside there is present on your team, the more potential there is for you to exceed that average/no-substantial-improvement projection. (Also, we're talking talent not luck here. Luck is not a part of upside. Spikes in BABIP or other luck stats shouldn't be considered.) It's rarely as cut and dry as the Player A vs. Player B scenario above but that's the end goal. To geek out for a moment, you want to skew your probability curve toward the right. Push it so that the variables inherent in the system cause an overperformance more often than an underperformance.
Players with the most upside often have a significant risk associated with them as well. The chance that they could amount to nothing is a profound and all too often occurrence. That's your basic cost-benefit analysis. Is the probability of this player achieving his potential during the season worth the risk of the chance he doesn't? And what are the risks and rewards of each stage in between total success and total failure? Obviously those are both questions best handled on a case-by-case basis but it's important to remember that players with upside are often players with risk.
Upside is going to remain a nebulous term. Finding those players that have upside due to age, previous injury or perhaps a lack of maturity is a goal of scouts in every organization. Identifying those somewhat intangible qualities that don't appear in the box score is what nets good players at discounts. The boundaries are always going to be a little gray regarding upside but nebulous doesn't imply without any definition -- merely without a firm one. I'll probably watch myself more closely when I use the term upside. There's a meaning there and it's more specific than often portrayed.
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If it's nebulous and a matter of opinion now
teams are beginning to attempt to change that.
I think I've linked it here in the past when we were trying to hire their assistant GM; the Indians organization produces reports on every player every year (I believe) that grade the player on various "tools."
Essentially, it's an attempt to turn "upside" into a statistic that can be measured. If the scores are 1 through 5, you concentrate on the players who are 4s and 5s, 'cause they have the most potential. Get them special training, etc. Players that are 1s and 2s? Well, you gotta fill out that minor league roster anyway.....
I'm pretty sure it was an extended URL of cleveland.com, but I can't find it right now.
by sdrone on Mar 28, 2008 9:28 AM EDT 0 recs
It all about quantification
Not to go PhD on you, but I think upside is a cognitive shortcut that lets the beholder assign a compartive value to a player's ceiling. Rather than say given a pitchers skill set and repertoire (and maybe quantifying those) it lets somebody say the upside is #3 starter or rp or closer etc. So I agree with your definitions, but I also think its definition is somewhat tied to the person making the statement.
Thanks
Tony H
by Tony H on Mar 28, 2008 9:52 AM EDT 0 recs
Great post, az
I think it's important to emphasize that accurate, or at least precise, upside evaluation allows teams to find value where other teams may not.
That's why upside has become so important for a team like the Cardinals. If we're always going to be a middle of the pack team in terms of payroll (which it appears that we are) accurately predicting a player's upside is an advantage over other teams, say the Cubs, without as good of a player evaluation system.
When commenters on this blog talk about a player's upside, they're not just talking about the fact that he's young and he might get better, they're talking about a value advantage we can have over other teams.
by arch support on Mar 28, 2008 9:56 AM EDT 0 recs
PECOTA
The quantification of "upside" is one of the greatest strengths of the PECOTA system - taking into account a variety of stats, body type, (DNA?), etc. and looking for comparable players.
It's easy to think we see potential with the naked eye - great "tools", jumps in stats out of context, but very hard to make an objective evaluation. However, if 9 out of 10 guys who fit this profile became productive big leaguers, there is tangible upside there.
by bgodar on Mar 28, 2008 10:10 AM EDT 0 recs
Let's combine these two debates
and discuss the upside for Reyes. ;-)
Just kidding, all.....put down your blunt objects.
Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.
by cardsfanindenver on Mar 28, 2008 10:16 AM EDT 0 recs
Making that statement
shows that you like to "play with risk" as oppposed to a "player with risk" like AZ is talking about.
by cardsgirl95 on
Mar 28, 2008 11:05 AM EDT
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;-)
Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.
by cardsfanindenver on
Mar 28, 2008 11:22 AM EDT
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The PETCOTA system
along with other complex systems do have good value in making judgements on a players potential but in a lot of cases like Reyes case, the more simple SWAG method is often more accurate.
by ridgesee on Mar 28, 2008 10:26 AM EDT 0 recs
More on risk, please
Azru, you mentioned briefly the risk factor near the end of your post. Could you (or someone else) expand on that? I don't think it goes without saying that younger players with more upside also have more risk.
Taking your A and B example, it seems to me that the 32-year-old player A carries a higher injury risk than player B. Wouldn't it be pretty rare that player B's production would fall dramatically?
In other words, why do you think players with more upside usually carry more risk?
by blehmann on Mar 28, 2008 10:36 AM EDT 0 recs
It's not just injury risk
Perhaps it's risk for time spending trying to bring the "potential" talent to a real skill that helps the team. Time wasted from failures means maybe another player doesn't get the help he needs.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on
Mar 28, 2008 10:48 AM EDT
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The conventional wisdom
is often that the uber-athletic toolsy young players have tremendous upside but also a great deal of risk. Daryl Jones, again, serves as a great example of this. He's got all the physical gifts to become a great player but there's some transition from physical prowess to actual baseball skills that he hasn't been able to make yet. This is often the case with those types of players. If things go right for them, they can go very very right. But when they go wrong they go very very wrong. Kip Wells is another example of someone who is regarded as having great stuff but for whatever reason, he's amounted to little more than a replacement level starter (if that).
There's certainly risk associated with an older player and it's not my intention to down play that but there's a long list of highly regarded players who just never manage to put it together at all.
by azruavatar on
Mar 28, 2008 10:53 AM EDT
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So in other words...
what you're saying with risk is not that there's a good chance productivity will decline, but rather that the risk is that they won't fulfill their potential?
If so, I completely agree - the list of players who never attained the potential attributed them is long. But in that case, the case of the A and B players really presents no (or little) risk for the upside player, since the risk you mention is only the risk that he doesn't improve as hoped. But he'd still remain just as good as player A.
by blehmann on
Mar 28, 2008 11:00 AM EDT
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right
that was an example heavily biased in player B's favor to illustrate the point.
by azruavatar on
Mar 28, 2008 12:06 PM EDT
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I'm not sure I'd call that "risk"
To me, "risk" involves the likelihood that the cost is greater than the benefit. With someone like Daryl Jones, who's hugely toolsy but hasn't yet put it all together, there's a great likelihood that he'll never put it all together but not much risk as the Cards don't have that much invested in him. He was a top-5 (rounds) draft pick but it's not like he's making millions of dollars or blocking other prospects in the system. The cost of him not making it just isn't that great.
I think a better term for what you're describing is "variance." It is the range of his possible performance. Jones might become an all-star if he can put those tools together or he might flame out and go back to a college football scholarship. His range of performance, from best case scenario to worse case scenario, is very expansive. That doesn't mean that the team's risk associated w/ his performance or with keeping him on a roster right now is very high. It just means there is a great variance between his best case performance and his worst case performance.
I'll add that everyone's worst case scenario is the same -- at least w/ minor league prospects. They all flame out and never amount to anything and get released. The reason Jones' variance is so great is b/c he has such great tools. The variance of someone w/ lesser tools wouldn't necessarily be so great.
by houstoncardinal on
Mar 28, 2008 11:06 AM EDT
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I agree HC...
but, I don't think the term risk is really used with guys who don't ask for/receive huge signing bonuses or aren't near the major-league level. DJ is a guy who has only been associated with risk when someone has said there is no risk associated with him (to this point). Risk comes with guys like Kyle Russell and Porcello...or guys like ARey and Brian Barton. Guys who have shown potential to be better than average major leaguers but you play/pay them a bunch of money at the RISK that they won't be.
Thanks for the highlight moments 15 and 27!!!
by cardzfanbub on
Mar 28, 2008 11:24 AM EDT
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Houstoncardinal
I disagree slightly that there isn't an element of risk involved in the dicussion regarding players like Jones. Drafting a player in the top 5 involves an oppotunity cost from the lost opportunity to draft a different player. I do agree that the use of variance is a needed component of the discussion.
by Tony H on
Mar 28, 2008 11:28 AM EDT
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but the risk is relatively small
remember, he was picked in the first 5 rounds, not the first 5 picks in the draft. I'll grant you that the risk goes up the higher the person was selected in the draft.
by houstoncardinal on
Mar 28, 2008 12:04 PM EDT
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if you wanted to label it variance
I wouldn't necessarily quibble with that. Jones is a riskier player relative to a draft pick that has a higher floor but lower ceiling. The overall risk to the organization may not be huge but the probability he reaches potential is also very low. So you have a high probability of no reward and a small probability of great reward. It's a balancing act between the two. Part of this conversation plays into drafting philosophy as an organization, as well.
by azruavatar on
Mar 28, 2008 12:15 PM EDT
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OK, maybe I misunderstood your point
I guess your point was that toolsy players like Jones have greater risk than people like Kozma, for example -- higher floors, lower ceilings. I'll definitely agree with that. There's greater risk largely b/c of the greater variance. I guess my comparison was more w/ toolsy young players vs vets -- or young players in general vs vets. There's very little risk for a team who's unlikely to win its division in playing younger guys but much more risk in signing, acquiring, and playing vets -- generally speaking. For teams like the Mets, Phils, Cubs, or others, there may be more risk w/ the young guys b/c they stand to lose much more.
by houstoncardinal on
Mar 28, 2008 12:32 PM EDT
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Excellent point.
I think that you identify the fun of being a GM. Identifying where your team is on the sliding scale between rebuilding and contending. Having major league players with large variances in potential is most likely seen as less risky when you are in a rebuilding phase (much as the Cards are); however, when retooling from 2003 to 2004, it would have been extremely risky to dump productive veterans with a much more predictable variance for prospects given that they were clearly in a contending mode.
I think that is the issue when you talk about how LaRussa/Duncan look at the roster, because they are looking at the most effective way to contend right now. That's why it was good to see Mo stand up for the organization and indicate that they are in a rebuilding mode.
by etp_stl on
Mar 28, 2008 1:18 PM EDT
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This is why I sorta cring when people say
Haren's treatment = Reyes' treatment. The team was in such a radically different situation in 2004 than it is today. It's way less unfair to bitch about Tony not giving the rook a chance in that situation, as that team was so good that anything less than a world series would have been a disappointment. It makes much more sense to go with the players whose performance you can predict in that situation.
Now, however, what the hell is there to lose by not playing Reyes?
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on
Mar 28, 2008 2:57 PM EDT
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Absolutely.
I don't remember the excessive complaints about Haren being shipped out when we thought Mulder would be Mulder. I'm sure there were those that were tepid on the trade, but the overall feeling seemed to be that Mulder was going to put us over the top. Most were predicting Haren to be a middle to bottom of the rotation starter. His "upside" has been reached in spades.
by etp_stl on
Mar 28, 2008 3:01 PM EDT
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There were loud detractors
BP predicted that Haren would outperform Mulder in his first year post trade. He did.
I was against the trade since it was pure reactionary. The "we need an ace" thinking. The sad part was we lost because we stopped hitting, not because the pitching imploded.
Ironically the short sighted need for "an ace" then has caused our pitching to implode now.
by DriverZn on
Mar 28, 2008 3:09 PM EDT
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Dave Duncan was also against trading Haren for Mulder
by Evilfrog on
Mar 28, 2008 3:18 PM EDT
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Yep
He was for the trade if it was Marquis instead of Haren. That would've been a steal.
by liam on
Mar 28, 2008 3:20 PM EDT
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One very loud detractor
was Brian Gunn, coming out of retirement to write this piece.
(Although I'm convinced Mulder will contribute significantly this year.)
by liam on
Mar 28, 2008 3:20 PM EDT
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Ironically,
he references Reyes as the other top pitching prospect in that article. Wouldn't it have been different now if Reyes had gone instead of Haren?
by etp_stl on
Mar 28, 2008 3:23 PM EDT
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I'm not really talking about the trade
so much as a lot of the commentary I've seen around here recently about how Tony never realy gave Haren a chance to succeed in StL, and hated him and shipped him out, just like what's going to happen to Reyes. And I just think that's a really unfair comparison, because the 2008 Cardinals are decidedly not the 2004 Cardinals.
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on
Mar 28, 2008 3:25 PM EDT
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Was there the ...
same sentiment about Haren? I don't remember it at the time, and I guess I haven't seen that said over the last few days. He does, to some extent, indicate the TLR/Jockety preference for proven commodities vs. upside players. But, as you stated, that was a decidedly different time with different circumstances.
by etp_stl on
Mar 28, 2008 3:34 PM EDT
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I don't remember one
It seems like this is a retroactive sentiment. But then again, in those days, I was spending more time on the official board than anything, and we all know what kind of stupidity goes on there. It was only around the 2004 postseason that I started reading actual cardblogs regularly. But I really don't remember this gigantic outcy about Haren getting the shaft, just perhaps some arguing that he should have had a WS start after his great relief appearance in game one.
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on
Mar 28, 2008 3:37 PM EDT
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Confidence interval and variance vs. "risk"
There is no rational basis for concluding that a player has more risk of falling short of expectations solely because he has more talent. The determining factors for projecting the risk of failure are the sample size for the evaluative data and the variance in that set of data.
For example, Albert Pujols had a much higher ceiling as a rookie than Aaron Miles. That did not make Pujols a greater risk of falling short of his expected performance (the median expectation in the range of possibilities). Assuming both players had the same sample size of minor league play for projecting their major league performance AND the variance in the historical data was equal, then the projection of their most likely (median) performance would be equally likely to happen, and the projection of best and worst outcomes for their performance would be equally wide. But the lower end of the range for Pujols' performance would still be higher than the higher range for Miles' performance. Thus, Pujols and Miles would have an EQUAL "risk" of falling short of their median expected performance, yet it one could predict with confidence that even in that outcome Pujols would still perform at a higher level.
If, however, a player shows high degree of variation (variance) in past performance, then the range of likely possibilities is broadened. If Joe Mather, for example, has a higher variance than Cody Haether, we can be more confident in our projections for Cody, REGARDLESS of whether Mather has more or less skill than Haether.
by CardsWin on
Mar 28, 2008 3:50 PM EDT
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Of course, the main determinant of a players' floor is injury risk
becaue an injured player has zero production, which will drag down any average in a hurry.
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on
Mar 28, 2008 3:55 PM EDT
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perspective
I think there is a difference between a pujols and a miles in most cases, and it has everything to do with cost. This cost can be in dollars or in lost opportunity. In dollars, if a Pujols goes bust you are out 10 million, whereas a busted Miles only costs 2. Not most of the time the best players are drafted early - you chose Pujols so my arguements is a little weak, but most times highly talented players of pujols caliber are scooped up early in the draft - an second round draft pick is a more risky draft pick than a 22nd round draft pick - it costs more to sign the 2nd rounder, the risk of not being able to sign them is higher and more costly if it falls through (loss of a second round player in the coming years), and if a second rounder flames out, that decision costs you more in productivity than a 22nd round flame out - just because more second rounders should succeed at the major league level than 22nd rounders. Risk isn't just about success and failure, but in investment.
by cdb on
Mar 28, 2008 4:20 PM EDT
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Perhaps that wasn't clear
I didn't mean to imply that more talent is directly proportional to the risk. But often, especially with prospects, the very raw athletes offer very high rewards attached to very high risks. Certainly the probability of return on talent players varies though.
by azruavatar on
Mar 28, 2008 6:21 PM EDT
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I don't think that's what AZ does
he's talking about Daryl Jones -- a toolsy player who was drafted for his tools, not his performance. Throughout his 3-4 years in the minors, his performance has been poor, to say the least. There've been flashes of his tools but he has performed miserably. It's not too much of a stretch to say that it's unlikely he'll reach his potential. Albert's performance was star-like from about the moment he took the field as a minor leaguer. You can't fairly compare Albert's minor league performance to that of Daryl Jones. Jones is unlikely to reach his potential b/c he has shown very little of his potential to this point as a pro, not b/c his ceiling is so high.
by houstoncardinal on
Mar 28, 2008 6:25 PM EDT
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Projecting based on raw talent versus developed skills
I agree, AZ, that in the case of D. Jones the confidence interval is very wide, because Jones is so low on the skill development curve that it makes for a very wide range of possible outcomes in any projection of his potential skill level, ultimately. So, in that sense, the risk that he will fall far short of his potential is very real.
And I agree with houstoncardinal, too, that Pujols is a rare exception in terms of talent and in terms of how far his skills were developed before he reached the major leagues. The range of possible performance for him was much narrower than the range for D. Jones now. So, yes, there is a much higher risk that Jones will fall far short of his potential.
Investing in player development is a lot like investing in stock. The conservative approach is to go for lower risk with lower potential value (Kozma). The bold (growth) strategy is to go for higher risk with higher potential rewards (Porcello). How much risk one takes on in stocks and in players depends on how much one can withstand losses. The Cardinals in last summer's draft must have felt that with such little capital already secured (minor league prospects) that a rapid growth strategy (Porcello) meant too much risk of ending up with nothing for a large investment ($10M) versus 10 or more cheaper alternatives (Kozma, Mortenson, et. al.) at the same total cost, with the probability that at least a couple or more would actually be able to contribute eventually at the ML level. It's a boring strategy, but it's wise, I think. Once the Cards are overstocked with valuable prospects, they can take more chances on high reward / high risk types like Porcello, because they can afford the failure of those chances, just as someone who has enough in his or her retirement accounts to retire securely can be more comfortable gambling a responsible fraction of assets on high growth / high risk investments, in hopes of striking gold....
by CardsWin on
Mar 28, 2008 8:10 PM EDT
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Skip Bayless....
picked the Cardinals to win the NL Central. I don't know if that makes me happy or sad.
...just a bit outside....
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Mar 28, 2008 12:10 PM EDT 0 recs
Why did he go and do that for?
I don't think the Cards are as bad as most so-called experts say they are, but I don't know about winning the Central. Bayless could look like a fool or a freaking genius. Let's hope for a future membership for him to join Mensa.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on
Mar 28, 2008 12:22 PM EDT
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that doesn't surprise me a whole lot
he probably picked us 3rd the year after we won 105 games.
by houstoncardinal on
Mar 28, 2008 12:27 PM EDT
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Where do you find that?
I'd love to see his rationale, but I can't find the article linked anywhere on the espn MLB page.
Here it shows the predictions of five ESPN analysts for the Cards and they say 4th, 5th, and [gulp] 6th.
by blehmann on
Mar 28, 2008 12:36 PM EDT
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its called TV
maybe you've heard of it?
:)
...just a bit outside....
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on
Mar 28, 2008 12:40 PM EDT
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it's funny
how TV used to actually matter. Nowadays, if you can't link to it, it's almost like it didn't happen.
"I'll believe it when I see it on youtube..."
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he'd drive down the street in his El Dorado
by SleepyCA on
Mar 28, 2008 1:41 PM EDT
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You're right...
I don't think of ESPN as a sports channel but as a website. It also doesn't help that I don't get the channel. :(
by blehmann on
Mar 28, 2008 1:51 PM EDT
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I read that ESPN prediction site
Maybe their W-L predictions are close, but their analysis is waaaaay off.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
by Mr Redbird on
Mar 28, 2008 12:56 PM EDT
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they are rank amateurs
http://vegaswatch.net/2008/03/tim-kurkjian-and-buster-olney-are.html
as this article shows, the ESPN analysts don't even go to the trouble of having their predictions balance out to an average of 81 wins per team. every win is also a loss; the MLB-wide won-loss record has to be .500. but kurkjian and stark think MLB will play .506 ball this year . . . . . pretty sloppy.
by lboros on
Mar 28, 2008 2:21 PM EDT
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That's hilarious
Still hard to comprehend that Keith Law was denied a BBWAA vote...
by liam on
Mar 28, 2008 3:38 PM EDT
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I only looked at their W-L for STL
That's really funny (and pathetic) that baseball is going to be more winning this season than ever. I can't believe they get paid that kind of money.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
by Mr Redbird on
Mar 28, 2008 3:46 PM EDT
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espn
he said it on first take or first and ten today
by barry whiteteeth on
Mar 28, 2008 6:50 PM EDT
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Bayless is a dolt
I think it's a toss-up between him and Stephen A. Smith for who is the most worthless "pundit" ESPN trots out on a regular basis. I'm going to take his pick of us as a death blow. Kind of like when Lee Corso picks your team on College Gameday, there's no worse omen.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country
by Mr Redbird on
Mar 28, 2008 12:50 PM EDT
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I think Bayless goes for the shock value over substance
Even though he's from Oklahoma (I believe he wrote for a paper here), I do not care for his views on most sports issues.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on
Mar 28, 2008 1:00 PM EDT
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+1
I agree with that. He just tries to spark a debate for the sake of sparking a debate. It was pretty sad watching him get outmaneuvered by the unintelligent but shit-ass goofy Woody Paige.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on
Mar 28, 2008 9:54 PM EDT
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That's tough
I've actually thought about this for a non-trivial amount of time. Stephen A. Smith is definitely an idiot, and so is Skip Bayless, but I also think Dick Vitale is a complete moron. (note the bold "A" -- I had to type it like Mr. Smith pronounces it) I think its hilarious to watch "Dicky V's" March Madness predictions -- top seeds all the time. If I'm not mistaken, his "upset" pick was a 9 over an 8 this year. He's just such a buffoon that sometimes people don't notice that he never has any substance to his analysis.
The best ESPN pundit? I think that's a toss up between Harold Reynolds and Jay Bilas.
by Ray Lankford on
Mar 28, 2008 1:54 PM EDT
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Reynolds
HR used to get ripped up pretty good by the firejoemorgan crew, for reasons that were perfectly defensible. However, when he talked about stuff like turning double plays, groundball footwork, swing mechanics, etc. he was actually pretty good. I miss the days when Baseball Tonight had half-tolerable commentators.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on
Mar 28, 2008 9:52 PM EDT
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bayless
i will start by saying i am not really a fan, but what he said was what i think a lot of people here may be thinking; he basically said he thinks the cubs and brewers would be fighting it out early, but that the cards would sneak in late after getting mulder and carp back, and would at that time have the best pitching; i am not sure, but i believe he may have qualified it by saying the pitching coming back and contributing would HAVE to happen for his pick to be right
Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.
by bigcardsfan5 on
Mar 28, 2008 2:12 PM EDT
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I guess it's theoretically possible if 2005 Mulder shows up again
if Hindenburg hurts himself, and gets replaced by a suddenly consistent Anthony Reyes, and then Carpenter comes back in full Cy Young form after the all star break, all while Pujols and Glaus avoid injury, and Ankiel builds on last year, and Izturis' second half of spring training is more indicative than his first half was.
But...
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on
Mar 28, 2008 3:02 PM EDT
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The critical question, the one on everyone's tongues, however is:
Where does John Kruk have us?
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on
Mar 28, 2008 2:59 PM EDT
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That's why this year is such an opportunity
There are clearly significant holes to be filled, and the financial realities are that we weren't going to be a big player in free agency to fill them.
Personally I was kinda hoping we'd use this offseason to throw the kids right into the mix so we can make more informed evaluations as to which are more likely to live up to their upside in future years. Particularly in the field. Not as much so with pitching simply because I think our best pitching prospects are a little further away.
What happened in actuality as far as I can tell, is a more balanced approach. In some cases youth and upside won out (McClellan, Barton). In others they continue the rummage sale shopping (Izturis, Miles, etc). It's a step in the right direction I think, so overall I'll take it but I do think we could look to give more kids their opportunity.
I like Rasmus, but it's become a given that he'll be able to help at some point. I don't mind a year of seasoning with him. But I hope that guys like Ryan, Hoffpauir, Mather, Perez get extended time over the course of the season. Not that I think any are sure things. To Azru's point, many with youth on their side never do make additional progress. I think putting them into the fire this year, helps make more informed decisions in 09', when we will have enough idle cash to be a player in free agency. I'd like to be able to make some determinations as to where we might need to overpay for talent, and more importantly where we will not.
And who knows, they might be better this year than our more veteran options anyway.
by Merry CRasmus on Mar 28, 2008 12:35 PM EDT 0 recs
Let's not forget just how L-O-N-G a ML season is.
The face of this franchise could very well be quite different by September. For a team in this spot, it's almost like the whole season is spring training. If a couple of our youngbloods put in a good showing in the first half of the season, it builds a case for giving MORE young guys a chance. My greatest fear is not that we will finish 4th, it's that our young players will demonstrate that they are not ML-ready yet.
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Mar 28, 2008 1:39 PM EDT
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Amen..MRFreak read my kind
one way or another (and I hope for the better) the roster will be very different in Aug/Sept than the queasy 25 we trot out this week.
Polyanna-like, I have great hopes for Clement, Mulder and Carpenter; and one or two of the "kids" (I don't know which one) will become this year's Chris Duncan, and Rasmus will be this year's Ankiel come August.
MY biggest fears are people like Pujols (health), Ankiel (flash in the pan?) and Yadi (that boy always scares me).
Make note: I expect nothing but disaster from the middle infield (at least in the first half) so anything we get there at all will be a plus.
And to tweak Freak's biggest fear... with me it's not so much that the kids will prove un-worthy as it is they won't be given the chance. If we are 5 games out by August 1, I hope management doesn't bring in the Miguel Cairo's of this world. I'm still cleaning up my vomit from that move last year.
p.s. I am in the Tony should have been replaced camp.
by the Tewk on
Mar 28, 2008 2:55 PM EDT
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We are essentially of one mind ... except
re the starting pitching. I expect poor years from all of our "suspect" starters (i.e., most of them), and a bad W-L record as a result. However, I expect the 2008 offense will be surprisingly robust.
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Mar 28, 2008 3:50 PM EDT
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I'm not forming any lasting judgements yet,,,,
Not that anyone cares what I think anyway. Agree that things can change dramatically over the months.
My original comment was more based that I find it interesting that you could make both a case for or against youth/upside being central to Mo's overall philosophy this year. On one hand you have McClellan and Barton. On the other you have the middle infield.
Overall, I'd say I am cautiously optimistic. A lot could change by June/July. If we're giving struggling veterans that have a potential replacement in the system a long leash, I'll be disappointed. If we pull the trigger and give the AAA prospects a shot quickly, overall I'll be pleased. Irrespective of the wins and losses.
by Merry CRasmus on
Mar 28, 2008 3:57 PM EDT
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great post az
no time to chat right now, but i wanted to give you your due props
by effin fisk on Mar 28, 2008 1:16 PM EDT 0 recs
Az, ...
this was

