The Reyes Mexican Standoff
I know there are comments on this topic in the main post today but it is pretty significant news so I hope it does not offend that I started a separate post on the topic. As you probably know, Reyes made the 25 roster as a reliever:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/0CC52FE90F73636E86257418001216EB?OpenDocument
This despite Duncan correctly saying Reyes was not setup for the reliever roll. How do you think was the conversation we between MO and TLR when the decision was made to set the 25 man?
TLR: I cannot abide by stench of straight bill. Banish him to Memphis.
MO: No sir. I cannot comply with your galant wishes. Reyes is on the 25 man. You shall play him sir.
TLR: Like hell I will Junior! He can rot in the bullpen like a corpse left on the gallows.
MO: You are the manager and you decide who plays. But I as the GM decide who is on the 25 man. So there.
(MO then sticks out his tongue out at TLR.)
Reyes is absolutely unsuited to relief. All I can figure is that they are trying to trade him and his perceived value may be higher as a guy off the 25 man versus someone down on the farm.
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37 comments
Comments
Agreed
I think it's unlikely that Looper, Wellemeyer, and Thompson all succeed. I'd guess that Reyes gets a start or two while they wait for Mulder and co.
by mikeonthecards on Mar 26, 2008 3:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And I'll third that motion. We must
be confident that we are right about the limitations of some of those starters ahead of Reyes, correct? So if we are confident that we will be proven correct, we can all lower our blood pressure a little and wait for reality to cast asunder the best-laid plans of our pitching coach and manager.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Mar 26, 2008 3:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I really enojed the title of this diary.
Signatures are for Communists.
by JI on Mar 26, 2008 3:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What are the chances...
That the team tells Looper that he's hurt some time in the next 2 weeks?
Jimmy steps in to lead off the bottom half of the inning... with nobody on base... It could happen... just not tonight.
by Hollywood15 on Mar 26, 2008 4:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think he could work
in the bullpen. Add a couple MPH to the fastball knowing he doesn't have to try to go 6ip+ and then drop in his change. I'd like to see him banish the slurve (though i haven't yet seen the 2008 version; maybe it's improved).
I'd still rather see him starting.
by TICY on Mar 26, 2008 4:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, this is actually my thought too
Why can't he relieve? He's basicaly a two-pitch pitcher--I would think this would make him more effective in relief.
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mar 26, 2008 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mo has some balls
i'm just happy to see that Mo is going to do what he feels is best, even if it is against the wishes of TLR and duncan.
by dmb60614 on Mar 26, 2008 4:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Latest from Goold
According to Derrick, the Mexican standoff is not between Mo and TLR but with D. Duncan
http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/bird-land/bird-land/2008/03/barton-mcclellan-officially-on-unless/
Tony says he's fine with Reyes in the bullpen. Just a thought: make Reyes a piggyback starter for Wellmeyer and Thompson. Whenever those two pitch, you know a reliever will be needed by the 5th or before. Reyes gets 3 innings each of those starts. At least he would be able to go through his extensive pregame starting routine.
by jjray on Mar 26, 2008 5:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A Reyes-Welley tandem
actually sounds interesting to me. Let them each forget efficiency and go all-out for 4 innings each.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he'd drive down the street in his El Dorado
by SleepyCA on Mar 26, 2008 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony was just talking to Bernie on 1380 and said nothing but good things and praise about Reyes. And he said a lot too.
by Evilfrog on Mar 26, 2008 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
please expound
Evilfrog, I missed TLR on Bernie's show but I have copied some of Bernie's summary of what was said off the STLToday.com message board. Please expound on what was said about Reyes beyond the Bernie summary (if anything).
by jjray on Mar 26, 2008 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree....
As long as Reyes starts and Welly is long relieve. Why not put both players in the roles they are best suited for?
Billy Crystal is a tougher out than Izturis.
by tangledbrett on Mar 26, 2008 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reyes
I hope he can get the non-belief out of duncan and get him off his back. Whats the old guys beef anyways? has he always been down on him?
by from First to Third on Mar 26, 2008 5:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You may have heard
about a philosophical disagreement between them regarding pitching to contact? There's been some discussion of it on this blog in the past . . . .
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on Mar 26, 2008 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In Favor
Call me foolish, call me a dreamer, but I like this idea. There a chance that Reyes will fail utterly as a reliever, but, if I were him, I'd rather be on the club, than back down in Memphis.
In one sense, we're hedging our bets. If Wally or Wonderbrad don't cut it, we've got our next best (arguably a better) alternative waiting out beyond the outfield.
While I think this clearly is a ploy to give other teams more of a look at Reyes, I really don't think more time in the minors is what Reyes needs.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on Mar 26, 2008 6:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Plus
it gives another young starter at AAA the opportunity to start instead of having someone taking up that spot in the rotation. This will help give some people a better idea of what's available on the farm, and add some experience to a young player.
by Jumsy on Mar 26, 2008 6:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
followup from Bernie
Bernie apparently just had TLR on 1380 and he gives us a summary of what was said: http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5505751#5505751
He talked about the team in general but had plenty to say about Reyes:
* On Reyes: "decision has not been made," on his status. bullpen issues are whether he can warm up fast enough, whether he can be used often.
* Reyes: "He's been talked about, touted, since Class AA. But he's still a developing pitcher."
* They asked Reyes if he wants to go to Memphis and start, or stay here and relieve... and TLR said Reyes strongly prefers to be at big-league level.
Later in the thread Bernie summarizes comments from Strauss:
"Joe Strauss is on now; he insists the front office pushed for Reyes to stay on the big-league club... and that TLR and Duncan would have preferred for him to go to Memphis. Why? Trade value, according to Joe Strauss... " Yeah, I thought trade value was the most likely reason Mo was able to force TLR to keep A. Reyes on the 25 man over the strong objections of Duncan ... and I bet TLR as well although he claims to be on the same page with the front office.
by jjray on Mar 26, 2008 6:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the trade value argument, to me, sounds like a reason to send him to Memphis
"See, we have this guy, he's totaly a starter, an dhe's totally ready to get big guys out, but we have this logjam, and are much happier having Todd Wellemeyer in the rotation, whatchya want for him?" sounds a LOT worse than
"We have this guy with a bunch of gerat potential, but we think he needs a little more seasoning at AAA in order to get in line with our organizational philsosophy. He has a great fture ahead of him"
Even if both are somwhat silly spin, I'm much more willing to believe the second
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mar 26, 2008 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see it differently
Potential buyers tell us Reyes is nothing more than a AAAA pitcher as he has yo yo'ed back and forth the last few years. We try selling them the World Series pitcher line. Arguing that Reyes is an established major leaguer carries more weight IMHO when the pitcher in fact is in the majors. If he is @ Memphis at this stage in his career, very hard to counter the AAAA argument. But really LaRussa and Duncan have publicly destroyed the image of Reyes by all this garage they spout in the paper to justify their unjustifiable decision so I think his value is probably driven down no matter where he plays.
by jjray on Mar 26, 2008 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok. Im going to be parapharsing these. Oh man Duncan made a great catch for the first out of the game. (sorry, replay on FSN.) Anyway, I wasnt taking notes so i might be a bit off on some of the comments.
On Reyes: "decision has not been made," on his status. bullpen issues are whether he can warm up fast enough, whether he can be used often.The Decision not being made was in regards to why Reyes went from being a starter, to being traded, to memphis, to bull pen. Besically he was saying the media has made those conclusions. Not the club.
As far as warming up goes. Tony said that like all starting pitchers Reyes has a routine to get ready before pitching. He said that he was it will take Reyes awhile; if ever; to be able to throw 10 pitches and be ready. So he would be used in situations where he had the inning to get warmed up. (I understood as when someone is pinch hitting or when it's clear that Welly is pitching his last inning in the 5th.)
* Reyes: "He's been talked about, touted, since Class AA. But he's still a developing pitcher."
He was talking about how some people get frustrated with Reyes when they really shouldnt. He has been in up and down in the Majors for the last 3 years making it seem like he has more experience than he does. And that people expect him to be great at this point becuase ... "He's been talked about, touted, since Class AA. But he's still a developing pitcher."
They asked Reyes if he wants to go to Memphis and start, or stay here and relieve... and TLR said Reyes strongly prefers to be at big-league level.
Pretty much cut and dry. They asked him if he wanted to go start or if he wanted to be in the Pen in the bigs. He also stated that this shows you what kind of competitor and team player he is.
On same page with TLR and Duncan: "Not a question of being on same page. It's a question of the things you need to do to be a truly successful starting pitcher." Says Reyes is improving, but still has things he needs to do better. "he isn't quite there."
Pretty much it. He says Reyes has done what the have asked him to do and has shown great improvement in all areas. Some more than others. And that he is sure he will get there with more work.
Really. It's easy to look at snips of the conversation and say Tony is "trashing" Reyes in the public. But if you listen to what is said and the tone is said, (keep in mind that a lot of questions are set up questions.), Tony was saying nothing but praise to Reyes.
Also. I forget where I read it (either DG or Leech). But Tony said that Reyes is one of those spots where him and Duncan don't see eye to eye.
by Evilfrog on Mar 26, 2008 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
damning with faint praise
Your explanation of the quotes, and the quotes themselves, are a different tune than that which Tony has sung recently. And that D. Duncan sings. They trash his stuff, his command, his approach. Here is a pitcher who has been in the majors long enough that he should be out of options but for some quirk in the rules. Still developing? We heard the same thing about Danny Haren before they shipped his gifted arm to Oakland. He developed quite nicely there. Yes, I know Reyes is not Haren but Haren got the Reyes treatment nonetheless.
Bottom line: we have a huge gapping oozing hole in our rotation. Here is the best young starting pitcher in our organization with ML experience who is just about out of options but LaRussa and Duncan say he is not ready. Case closed. There is no other time for Reyes. If not now, the obvious answer is never in a Cardinals uniform. Their actions say Reyes sucks. They've trashed the kid by implication. I wish Anthony Reyes well while in the uniform of another team except on days when he is pitching against the Cards.
by jjray on Mar 26, 2008 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just profoundly disagree with your final statement
We've been hearing for 3 years now that Reyes is not suited for relief. This is why he's never been tried there. Perhaps it's true but isn't it time we try and see what, if anything, we can get out of Anthony? What is there to lose? Tony isn't going to start him, though he should b/c god knows he's better than Thompson and Wellemeyer, but it makes absolutely no sense to send him back to Memphis to start again. He's dominated AAA and there's nothing left for him to prove.
What's the point in returning him to Memphis? He would just end up blocking one of the other starters we have coming up through the system. I realize that no one, as yet, has stated he might make a pretty good reliever though no one has stated why that's the case either. It may turn out to be true but, if we're not going to put him in the rotation, it's in our interest to at least find out if he might be able to make himself into a decent reliever. Again, what do we have to lose by trying it? God knows he'll be better than Jimenez!
by chuckb on Mar 26, 2008 9:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the argument about warming up just seems kinda stupid
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mar 26, 2008 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wellemeier
Maybe, since Wellemeier isn't a true starter, has issues with control, and runs up huge pitch counts relative to his innings pitched, they are anticipating him again injuring himself trying to be a starter. So, they are keeping Reyes around in case they are forced to use him as a last ditch solution in the rotation.
by bgh on Mar 26, 2008 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If that's the logic
then it really makes no sense to do things the way they are--just put reyes in the rotation and Hindenburg in the bullpen
"You say the world has lost it's love. I say embrace what it's made of" - Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mar 27, 2008 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A reliever?
Didn't the club use Reyes as a reliever at times late last season? Or am I mis-remembering? Although it seems like his exposure as a reliever was somewhat limited, doesn't it at least give us some indication of what he might be able to do in that role?
by 82Special on Mar 26, 2008 11:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There is a serious matter that should be pointed out
in that this marks the second time that LaRussa and Duncan have disagreed with each other over using a pitcher (well, in a important matter that is).
The previous is the Dan Haren situation, which is well documented. When you now think about how Duncan wanted Mulder instead of Haren and then look at how much time Duncan has spent in 'remolding' Mulder's mechanics, putting his fingerprints all over his career, you have to wonder if it is an ego thing.
Which brings us to Reyes. Duncan wanted Reyes to buy into his philosophy of 'pitch to contact down in the zone'. What this neglects is Duncan's other two philosophies which are good physical training (ARey with SWAT in the offseason) and challenging hitters with YOUR pitch (Reyes throwing 4 seamer up in zone). Duncan 'rebuilt' Todd Wellemeyer, believing he had fixed his control and stamina problems. He will ride that horse until it's 3 days dead. Again, you have to wonder if it's ego.
There have only been 3 other young pitchers come out of the Cardinals system the last 4 years: Adam Wainwright, Brad Thompson and Jason Marquis. Jason Marquis has become a headcase. Was he that way when he got here? Did Duncan's constant tinkering drive him that way? Wainwright attributes his success to two men: Chris Carpenter and Jason Isringhausen. Not his pitching coach. Not his pitching coaches philosophies. These two veteran pitchers teaching him what to do a) in difficult situations and b) to prepare himself to start.
Finally, we come to the other starter: Brad Thompson. Thompson does everything Duncan wants. He throws his sinker religiously. He keeps the ball down. He stays in the rotation.
It appears Mo put his foot down today and LaRussa was inclined to follow because he probably was leaning towards Reyes anyways. Duncan's ego, such as it is, may be a serious issue here.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Mar 27, 2008 1:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I thought Duncan wanted to keep Haren?
I can't find the reference to back that up, but my impression was that Duncan didn't want to trade Haren.
by wildman on Mar 27, 2008 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are right, I was wrong
"Well, (pitching coach) Dave Duncan and I have been together a long time and been friends for a long time, and it’s probably the closest we’ve ever come to having a disruptive relationship, because he was very adamant that Dan be a part of St. Louis’ future.
Please disregard my entire position on the matter. It holds no weight now.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Mar 27, 2008 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marquis was already a mess when he got here.
He was considered a headcase by the braves staff before we got him. No knock on Ducan there.
To me Duncan just seems like a one trick pony. He seems to want to work with pitchers that have first failed in some way. If the pitcher was first good then there is nothing for him to do so he needs a problem to fix.
Pitchers all seem to lose velocity when they become a cardinal. They seem to improve control. Their strikeout rates decline. Their walk rates decline. They all need a new "arm slot".
The problem with Reyes and Duncan is Reyes mechanics don't work with Duncan's aproach and neither of them know how to adjust to the situation. Reyes tried to do what Duncan wanted last year, it failed in a big way.
Now there is potential upside here. Duncan doesn't try to "fix" relivers in the same way he does starters. Pitch counts are not a concern so he doesn't preach the same things. Its possible he will wash his hands of Reyes and then we will see if the real Reyes is a success or failure.
by DriverZn on Mar 27, 2008 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marquis did not
come out of the Cardinal system. He came from the Braves along with Wainwright in the J.D. Drew deal, but, unlike Wainwright, he never spent a day as a minor leaguer in the Cardinal system.
by Mike G on Mar 27, 2008 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I am aware of that
but Marquis was only 25 when he got to St. Louis and had only started roughly 40 MLB games. Dave Duncan had a huge hand in shaping who Marquis was as a pitcher.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS
by Hardcore Legend on Mar 27, 2008 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strauss article this morning
It seems whatever LaRussa said on the radio yesterday to Bernie was smoke. He argued to get Reyes sent to Memphis. Mo said "NO". Good for you Mo. LaRussa, in telling Strauss the matter is still "unresolved", obviously is attempting to go over Mozeliak's head on this one. I think he is arguing his case directly to Papa Dewitt. I agree with Larry's assessment that this a huge deal.
Funny thing from Strauss article. Tony's quote framing the situation is almost exactly my tongue in cheek dialogue written above in this diary yesterday.
"The decision of who gets in uniform is ultimately placed with the front office and/or ownership. * * * But once you get them, the decision how to play them is mine and the coaches'. ... That's how it works."
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/C45A5B820FCC81028625741900121881?OpenDocument
Elbirdos is right. This fight over Reyes has escalated into a fight for the soul of the Cardinal organization. Does LaRussa control the 25 man roster from the dugout or does the GM who has a longer range vision than the next 3 game series. It's a huge battle and my prayers are with Mozeliak. MO is our boy!
by jjray on Mar 27, 2008 10:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
and DG's article's seem to Counterdict Strauss.
Dave Duncan has been resistant to that notion; La Russa and general manager John Mozeliak are open to the idea. La Russa hinted as much when he said this morning: "Dave and I don’t agree on everything. … It is still fluid."
He’s had a strong spring," La Russa said. "It is legitimate to talk about him being an innings guy in the ‘pen (vs.) the benefits of having him take the ball every five days (in Memphis). What benefits him? And, what benefits us?"
http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/bird-land/bird-land/2008/03/barton-mcclellan-officially-on-unless/
Blah blah soul blah.
And it's obvoius that it is still unresolved. Strauss went from reporting that Reyes was going to be traded; to starting in Memphis; to the bull pen in lass than 24 hours. That sounds like an unresolved issue to me.
It's not a bad thing to have Coaches and Management disagree on sometimes. It's actually a really good thing. As long as it doesn't spill over into other bussiness.
by Evilfrog on Mar 27, 2008 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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