Brad Thompson as a Starter
Looking at the conversation about who’s most deserving to be in the rotation between Reyes and Thompson and people citing Thompson’s overall statistics made me wonder if you took out the starts only, would he look like the better option?
Having said this, I don’t know why we can’t have both of them in there, and boot one of the other people (probably Wellemeyer in my mind, deserving of that scorn or not).
Regardless though, in looking at Brad Thompson’s overall stats and his stats as only a starter, it’s very interesting reading.
|
|
2007 Overall |
2007 Starting |
Career |
|
ERA |
4.73 |
4.66 |
4.00 |
|
K/9 |
3.69 |
3.30 |
4.26 |
|
GB/FB |
1.61 |
1.76 |
1.89 |
To start, it’s easy to see Brad Thompson’s success comes from his ability to get ground balls. When he gets more ground balls, his ERA stays low. More on this later. It’s also easy to notice that when Thompson took the starts, he looked even less to strike batters out, striking out just 3.3 batters per 9 innings.
I also split out Thompson’s quality starts vs. his other starts. In 17 starts in 2007, he had 8 quality starts. It’s not shocking to think that in quality starts his ERA is very good, while in other starts, it’s pretty bad, but here are the exact numbers:
|
|
ERA |
K/9 |
GB/FB |
|
Overall |
4.665227 |
3.304536 |
1.762376 |
|
Quality Starts |
2.470588 |
3.705882 |
2.0625 |
|
In Other Starts |
8.114754 |
2.704918 |
1.408163 |
|
In Starts with a GB/FB >2 |
2.25 |
4 |
3.2 |
The interesting things here are that in quality starts, he has a good ERA and a ground ball ratio of over 2. This led me to look at his ERA ONLY in games where he posted that 2/1 ratio, where he is obviously dominant, posting a 2.25 ERA in 6 starts (17 total starts). This is also true of Thompson when he pitched in relief in 2005 and 2006, posting GB/FB ratios of better than 2 both years and posting ERAs of 2.95 and 3.34 those two years.
Now, this isn’t the only way possible for him to have success. If you go start-by-start, you see that in late July, he posted back to back quality starts where he didn’t hit that ratio either time, and in fact, on July 22nd, he pitched 6 IP and gave up 2 ER, while getting only 9 ground balls to 8 fly balls, a very un-Thompson-like ratio. However, looking at this two starts, there is no reason to think that this is anything more than the exception that proves the rule, as he seemingly did nothing else better those two starts to compensate.
The other interesting thing about Thompson can be found on his “Splits” page on ESPN.com: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=6264
If you look at his splits, in his first 30 pitches, he tends to give up lower batting averages, but still high OBP. Later in his pitch counts, he tends to walk fewer, but the OBP stays the same, as he gives up about a .340 batting average from pitches 31-75. To give comparison, I go to everyone’s favorite whipping boy, Anthony Reyes. Reyes struggles slightly more than Thompson during his first 30 pitches, but then settles down considerably during pitches 31-75, where Thompson just switches from walks to hits.
This shows us that Thompson is consistent throughout and we really are getting the real Thompson, whereas Reyes simply needs to get his focus, control, or whatever it is he lacks in his first 30 pitches. (Of course, a secondary part of this is that he might only get PAST the first 30 pitches when he’s pitching well, but either way, it proves the same point for Reyes—that there is reason to believe he can improve considerably over last year’s numbers, whereas Thompson is likely to stay the same guy).
Reyes’s splits: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=6225
I have no hatred of Thompson or problem with him being in the rotation, as his 4.66 ERA starting for league minimum is certainly better than paying Kip Wells several million to pull an ERA of 6.27, but, Thompson’s spot in the rotation ought to be based on two things: his ability to get ground balls (his key to success, noted long before this post) and the lack of options with more upside, since he is who he is.
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I always consider usage with Thompson
I have a real hard time projecting Thompson because he's been used so erratically. It's useful to remember that he was bounced back and forth from starting to bullpen last year. Sometimes making starts on very short rest. It was really bordering on abuse IMO. The old adage is that a sinkerballer needs a tired arm to be effective, but I'd like to see some studies on that. I'm skeptical.
Just mentioning that as something to be taken in consideration for this discussion. Reyes vs. Thompson is something I have a tough time having a strong opinion on, though I'm inclined to give Reyes the first shot. Of course it sounds like the Cards are going the other way.
So many unknowns. A big factor to me is that we don't know how many starts we are talking about here. We may be talking about as few as 3 starts. Of course considering how fragile the arms of Mulder and Clement are, it might also be a fairly regular spot.
Thompson could be a decent part of the bullpen. I'd say Reyes is much dicier in that role. And Thompson might have to be sent to the bullpen in a few weeks anyway. I'm inclined to give Reyes the ball and hope everything pans out and, as a result, you can give Thompson a regular role in the bullpen this year.
I seem to recall. . .
that at one point last year he was used both as a regular starter and as a reliever between starts which seemed to really end his effectiveness as either.
Granted last year the bullpen was in dire straits at times, but I would ardently hope that if Thompson does start the year in the rotation he is treated as a starter and not used in the pen at the same time.
Granted
you gotta remember that his first two years here he had a much better defense behind him to field the grounders, and he had a rookie luck of hitters not getting a good read on him his first year in the bigs (why he had a ERA under 3). this year is much more iffy.
I'd say if we can trade reyes for some upside high A, AA starting pitchers from a club with a good farm system it'll benefit reyes, since he seems like one of the few pitchers that duncan can't seem to help (like marquis and wells were.
And the fact that in the minors reyes pitched up in the zone which is how he got so good in our minors, then coming to the bigs duncan wants him to pitch down in the zone, reyes wasn't used to it and struggled.
Cardwash - Cardinal, Washington fan (Washington???? Yeah, I know)
The fact that Reyes is a Stike out...
and Thompson is a sinker baller. Should, imo, give Reyes the edge. Because with the downgrade in Defense at 3rd; and Izturis stinking it up at short stop ;you would expect Thompsons ERA to raise a little bit from just that. Of course, if Izturis plays like he did yesturday its a wash. But im not holding my breathe here.
wait...
... the IF defense was pretty atrocious last year as well. someone on this board ran the numbers at some point, and the StL defense was near the bottom of MLB. if Kennedy can hit enough to stay on the field, and if Miles doesn't play SS at all, then the IF defense should be much better this year; not worse.
Reyes gets more Ks, yes. but he also gives up a lot more fly-balls. the OF defense will give Ankiel, Duncan, and (probably) Barton a ton of innings. we could have the worst OF defense in the league this year, depending on how well Ankiel does and how much Barton plays. in any case, the OF defense will almost surely be worse than the IF defense. this would seemingly give the edge to Thompson over Reyes.
Sinkerballers
For various reasons, most of which I agree with, this organization LOVES sinkerball pitchers.
Thompson fits that profile while Reyes doesn't.
If Wonderbrad bombs...
today against the Twins, and Reyes shines in his next start does it change anything? As stubborn as TLR and Duncan are I doubt it...but IMO it should. Neither one has done anything spectacular this Spring to seperate himself from the other.
Thanks for the highlight moments 15 and 27!!!
I'll say it one more time
In order for Reyes to make the starting rotation (and stay there), he has to beat out the No. 3 starter, Looper. No. 4 & 5 starters will move to the bullpen when Pineiro and Clement come back and it does Reyes no good to start 2 or 3 games in STL and then get moved down to Memphis because he is not a relief guy.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Mar 24, 2008 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Thompson's only made a handful of starts in his career
so drawing any sort of conclusion from the data one way or another is subject to a lot of noise however...
his has nearly a 1:1 k/BB ratio a starter and he gives up a shit ton of hits
Looking at this small set of data, plus watching him pitch, my knee jerk reaction is that he'll suck worse than Looper. I think Thompson is a perfect middle relief guy, a guy who can eat up a few innings after Pineiro/Wellemeyer/Looper/Reyes/Clement/Mulder gets their ass(es) kicked (seriously this could be the worst rotation in the majors), and give the team a chance to mount a come back.
He's had success there, and I think he should stay in that role.
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