I don't think most people question his talent, his knack for winning or even his in game play calling most of the time. While we may bitch and moan about bunting, pinch hitting, etc. I don't think it is a TLR specific thing it is more or less a topic that ever baseball fan complains about with any manager. What drives people nuts about TLR though is who he has in the lineup card and why he has them there. He seems to prefer experience over skill more than he should, while that is often a good thing you can have too much of a good thing. Overall though I like TLR and I am happy he is back but I hope he plays Ryan and Barton as much as they deserve.

This is the primary reason that I sense some disdain for Mr. LaRussa on this site. This has become more of an issue now that the Cardinals are in a rebuilding mode (whether they choose to say so or not). His preference for players with little value based on empirical analysis (read: Aaron Miles) and veterans with questionable value (e.g, Juan Gone and almost Bonds) leads to players that might have some upside not getting an appropriate trial. Depending on the state of a franchise, this wouldn't necessarily be a problem. For a team poised to make a run, a manager like Tony is fine -- but the Cardinals are not really in that position right now. A manager more willing to accept that player development is more important at this stage would be more appropriate. I doubt that would be any of the other managers you suggest either (save possibly Oquendo).

As for his micromanaging, I think that is less of an issue in this corner of the blogosphere -- it is a bigger issue in the rant-o-sphere. His methods can be questioned (e.g, batter vs. pitcher preferences based on very small samples), but those are the sort of decisions managers get paid to make. And as has been pointed out, it's hard to question his results. However, I am not aware of any empirical data to support the idea that he adds 7-15 wins per year. I think that unlikely from any manager, not just TLR.

I can't speak for everyone, but I've never felt the dislike of La Russa expressed in this forum is anything but professional.

I've never heard any personal attacks on La Russa here, even when he made the mistake of driving while intoxicated. The criticism is always baseball related.

And I don't think many anti-La Russans would argue that the man has not been a successful major league coach.

My issues with Tony (and I would say most people's issues) are what chris13, jillsinmo, and fourstick have already said: a preference for experience that can be detrimental, lack of professionality when dealing with his "problem" players, and (personally for me) his stubbornness.

I'm reminded of the episode last summer when the P-D ran the, admittedly, silly poem about how the Cubs weren't going to win the World Series. Tony used the game press conference to petulantly make a point that he wouldn't deal with any P-D reporters as punishment for the poem. When reporters like Miklasz pointed out that he should take the issue up with the editors and let the reporters do their jobs, Tony refused and maintained his stupid stonewall. I understand the point he was trying to make, but is that really the best way to do it? The whole thing seemed childish....and ironic considering how holy Tony is in baseball circles: here's a future hall of fame manager pouting like a kindergartner because somebody did something he didn't like.

Additionally, I'd like to second jillsinmo's point regarding the Mitchell Report. When Canseco's book first came out, I remember Tony defending Big Mac saying that McGwire had spent long hours in the gym building his body while Canseco was obviously on 'roids because he never put in the time....he just magically had this built frame. But, in reading the Mitchell Report, it seems clear that steroid use among players was well known to everyone in the club house....it was no secret who was using them. If that's the case, it would appear that not only did Tony look the other way when his players abused PED's, but he lied about McGwire's use when Canseco (whom I find odious) was telling the truth.

Understand, I'm not holding Tony accountable for the steroid era. I'm not saying he is any more responsible than the players who used them, the trainers who provided them, or the owners, coaches, writers, and whoever else who allowed it all to happen. What bothers me is Tony's righteous indignation about Canseco's "lies" when Tony himself was lying or, at least, not forthcoming with the truth.

All that aside, the only pertinent problem I have with Tony right now is I do not feel he is right for a team that should be in full rebuilding mode. He is not the manager who will establish what value we have in our young players so we know what value we can use in the future and what value we can trade. When Jocketty was let go, I fully expected Tony to be gone. The fact that he was brought back represents, to me, that the team is not embracing the "rebuilding" phase as fully as it should. His re-signing is a microcosm of the problems that will keep this team from being successful in the coming two or three years, imo.

Regarding the blogger you quoted, I don't feel his points are all that valid. How does Tony winning a lot in STL entitle him to do whatever he wants now? Baseball is more and more a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately kind of sport, which it should be. When players, or coaches, are no longer relavent, they should be moved along to make room for those who can contribute. I loved Jim Edmonds and Scott Rolen, two of my favorite Cards players, but it was time for them to move on. The team is better off without them, just as I feel it would be better off without TLR.

And, I find the idea that a manager adds as much as fifteen wins a year laughable.

Brevity is not my strongsuit.

...the guy just wins."

Except when he doesn't, which has been more often than not, the last two years. And a lot of that is due to his bad decision making- giving miles PA after PA and playing encarnacion and taguchi over Duncan and ludwick last year alone (and then not recognizing duncan and ankiel's problems when they were obviously either injured or going through personal crisis) likely cost us 4-5 games in the standings, not to mention foolish things like having Kip Wells pitch the first game after the all star break. We all knew how that would go, except for Tony. Go back and read the game thread.

The way the cards handled the ankiel HGH thing was also bad, and a huge part of TLR's job- as big, imho, as deciding which LOOGY to use- is to create an environment on the team where things like 11 game losing streaks don't happen. He didn't. As bad as our team was last year, a few decisions by Tony contributed greatly to our finish as a 78 win team instead of a team challenging for a weak division.

The fact that there are definitely a lot of worse managers out there does not mean he should be given a free pass.

Has anyone seen how much he is making in relation to other managers? 2 yrs-8.5 million? Is he really worth that? Only Joe Torre makes more than 4 million/year, and his cost was driven up by getting to poorly manage the Yankees All-Star roster.

I'm sure we could have signed a manager for 2 million less, and signed another player who could have helped us win more games...

I honestly think if one of those Shakespearian writing monkeys were to manage his teams (ie, basically make moves at random), the record would be no worse.

He's also horrible with players on a personal level. He has his pets who can seemingly do no wrong, despite sucking horribly, and then players who can do no right, despite being pretty decent.

He's also clearly much too loose in the clubhouse with regards to what players do in the offtime (ie, drugs and alcohol). I don't think it's any coincidence there were two drug and alcohol related deaths on his watch. Remember Kile was found with marijuana in his system, which obviously didn't kill him, but it's also not something good for players with bad hearts.

He's bad tempered. He can't take even the lightest of criticism (which is all he's gotten from the STL media) without turning surly and churlish.

And I also have to say as a native St. Louisan, I'm more than a little offended that he doesn't like the area. While admittedly, I don't like it either, but if I were paid millions of dollars for a job there, you can bet I'd live there most of the year, along with my family. He can move somewhere nicer when he's retired

Look at the last 3 managers we have had; TLR, Joe Torre and Wittey Herzog. Most people on this board have never seen a bad manager. How many remember Verne Rapp? I, having lived a good portion of my adult life in the cities of Cleveland and Chicago have seen a lot of really bad managers and I can tell you that Tony is not one of them. No, I don't agree with everything he does, but he is more right than he is wrong and that's all you can ask for, IMO.

So, what is the problem? I think it's like the old football story that the best quarterback on the team is the one on the bench, because he isn't out there making mistakes. People think that you can pick up anyone off the street and they would be better than the current manager. Not just in St Louis, but there was the same attitudes in Cleveland and Chicago. Player hits .212. it's the manager's fault. Pitcher post's a 6.00 ERA, the manager didn't use him right.

So let's not kid ourselves. All problems are not fixed by a manager change. Changing managers will not heal Carpenter's arm. It won't make Ryan grow up any faster. Chances are it will just make things worse.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but I just don't understand it. I feel as a Cardinal fan I've been blessed not just with TLR but with the last 3 managers we've had. They don't get much better.

the notion that TLR adds "7-15 wins per season" just is not the case. A BP study a couple of years ago said that the best managers in baseball, of which LaRussa MIGHT be one, add about 5 wins per season over an average manager.

More importantly however, and I have been a TLR supporter during his tenure here. While others have criticized him for myriad reasons, I have staunchly defended him. That said, he is not the best manager for the Cards going forward. His proclivity for playing vets at the expense of young players is a problem going forward. This team needs to be in the middle of a youth movement and he just isn't the type of manager who prefers youth over vets. Others will quibble with that, but it's true.

The biggest impact, unfortunately, is LaRussa impact on the roster. Once the roster is settled, it's hard to quibble w/ playing one vet over another. We've seen his impact already in his stubborn refusal to give Brendan Ryan an opportunity at the SS job. He's bounced Anthony Reyes around w/o just letting him go out and pitch. I fear that his preference for vets will end up w/ Juan Gonzalez on the active roster at Brian Barton's expense.

Tony is a great manager -- a sure fire Hall-of-Famer but he absolutely isn't the manager the Cards need while we are in a rebuilding mode. I stridently object to the idea that Cards' fans should yield to him just b/c he won a World Series. St. Louis is not HIS town. It's not HIS dugout. Those belong to the team and the team would be better w/ a rebuilding manager than it would w/ TLR in the dugout. The 5 wins he adds this year (if that) aren't getting the Cards into the postseason.

"Tony isn't a model at developing young talent -- he jerks them around like veteran players who can handle it and doesn't understand why some of these young guys hang their heads. Players like Reyes, Hector Luna, and Brendan Ryan get jerked in and out of the lineup when what they really need is steady at-bats to help them settle in. The young players who succeed under Tony are those who are headstrong, confident, and battle tested like Pujols, Molina, Duncan, etc. Those guys also get a ton of action without much interruption to get their heads settled a bit."

That to me discribed Larussa to a tee. So what is a manager's value if he gains you 5 maximum wins and ruins several young players.

everybody thinks its only tony wanting the veterns to play. from what i've seen the front office has the same preference. you think its just tony letting izturis play? you think its just tony deciding to send rasmus down?

sure you can disagree when tony has a certain player in the lineup from day to day or the fact that tony can hold a grudge too long but placing the blame entirely on him for roster moves is very short sighted.

as far as ruining young players there wasn't much to ruin with luna. he's not even on a major league roster last time i checked and you can't blame that on larussa. reyes was given his oppurtunity to start off the year last season and sucked it up. wainright was in the arguably the same position as reyes except that he made the most of his opportunity and now he's the ace of the staff. and from everything i've read tony isn't that far off in his evaluation of ryan. plus how many times have i heard on this site that ryan is at most a backup infielder. well, that's were he is. i'm fine with letting izturis trying to capture his old ability. ryan isn't the SS of the future and whoever is at SS is only a placeholder for kozma so i say "what's the big deal?". looking back at izturis' past you can see the possiblity of him still being good.

and honestly, if the player battling for a postion and can't handle adversity what makes you think they will be a good major leaguer? you think player without mental fortitude will excel in a playoff series?

I think Tony is a fantastic manager and have thoroughly enjoyed his tenure here in Saint Louis. There is something to be said for both being able to effectively guide upper echelon teams like his in 04-05 and also getting the most out of more flawed teams like in '02, '06, and to a lesser degree, last season (they were a game out in September).

I also, however, think that some times a change of scenery is for the best, both for, in this case, the manager and the club. I'd have preferred to see Oquendo and Matheny (as a bench coach for now) get their shot; but if having one of the winning-est managers in baseball history is our biggest problem (it's not), then the club is in a great position (it too is not).

of personal levels, I still respect him as a crafty son of a bitch that can bleed an extra win every blue moon.

Having said that, I wouldn't pick this Diva up from the shoulder of the road if his car was broken down in the middle of a monsoon.

I doubt anyone other than a TLR apologist would argue any differently that TLR is a world class prick that thinks way too much of himself. That is my problem with Tony.

What? DeWitt can't afford a real major league level shortstop but will throw $8.5 large at this guy for two years? Pul-eeze.

"why no love for TLR" not "is TLR a good manager"

I'm a TLR hater, but I would not deny his baseball skills. His people skills are on par with Bobby Knight, but his baseball skills are unquestioned by most here.

Why has TLR not been using his celebrity to endorse more products in the metro area? Advertisers know that most locals think that he is a dick, that's why.