What to think of Mark Mulder?

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 15, 2008 11:26 PM EDT

"It is invariably saddening to look through new eyes at things upon which you have expended your own powers of adjustment."

As the winter turns to spring, we find ourselves again on the 'Mark Mulder Arm Reattachment' watch. Some will say, "I've given up on expecting anything from Mark Mulder" others will believe that he is a wild card that could make this team a contender.

I find it dubious that anyone can 'not care', not because of a belief that Mark Mulder can be a savior or anything like that but anyone who has been a fan of this team longer than 5 years has to appreciate what this team has invested in the left arm of Mark. He's cost them over $24 M. He cost them an average reliever and a first basemen that hasn't really found health or playing time yet. He cost them this generations Carlton for Wise swap. He was relied upon to be the 'Ace' when it was thought Carpenter was a very good #2 starter. He was relied upon to provid the Cardinals with a Top 3 (Carpenter, Mulder, Morris) in 2005 to rival what they had seen from the Red Sox in 2004 (Schilling, Pedro, Lowe). They counted on him to keep the season alive against Roy Oswalt after Pujols had blasted Brad Lidge's ego into the stratosphere.

If you don't care what Mark Mulder can do for this club, I have to ask "WHY!?!?!". They've invested too much and come too far to be flippant about it.

Which brings me to rash of "good news" the Cardinals have been dropping on us of late.

Mark Mulder (January 21 - stlcardinals.com)

"Even when I played catch [before the last operation] it felt funny," Mulder said Monday at the Cardinals annual Winter Warm-Up. "Just playing catch. Where you're landing is different. I'm playing catch now, and it feels completely normal. I think the whole mechanics thing is kind of blown out of proportion, because if your arm is working right, everything else is fine.

Derrick Goold (February 29 - Post Dispatch)

Mark Mulder increased the intensity of his bullpen sessions with a 45-pitch outing Thursday that left teammates and coaches impressed. He was only droll. "Compared to what they've had to watch the last couple years," the lefty said, "a lot of things would look good."

George Paletta (March 5 - MLB.com)

"If he continues to progress the way he has, which is a fairly straight line and a very steady forward progression, by the time we break camp, [his status] should be a baseball decision [as opposed to a medical decision]," Paletta said.

Dave Duncan (March 15 - Post Dispatch)

"The way he's throwing you can start seeing an end to his rehab and a beginning to getting him ready to pitch," pitching coach Dave Duncan said.

Derrick Goold (March 15 - Post Dispatch)

The lefty, coming off his second shoulder surgery in as many seasons, no longer has a drag in his delivery and looks far smoother from windup to throw.

Duncan said his delivery is the best it's been since Mulder came to the Cardinals in a trade before the 2005 season.

So, with all those carefully crafted quotes creating mild optimism that Mark Mulder might be the pitcher he was in 2003, heck most would settle for 2005, Two questions must be answered:

1) Mark Mulder's arm may be reattached (finally) and his mechanics may be fixed (if they were really broken), but does that mean he can actually be the successful pitcher he once was or just a healthy pitcher who can eat innings with very little positive from it.

2) What is the timetable now? Is it still May 1? Is it sooner? With Mark down in Florida or in AAA, who takes the training wheels off? Does Mark take 2 good starts and pronounce himself in 'fighting shape' and show up in the rotation in April? Does the organization start him on a more excellerate program that has him getting some relief work in ST games before the Cardinals break camp?

What's your take on the Mulder situation?

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Comments

hope for the worst

then, for once, we can only be pleasantly surprised

8/13/79- Lou Brock 3000 hits

by lb3000 on Mar 16, 2008 12:04 AM EDT 0 recs

Great post

I'm guilty of being one of those people that say "I've given up on expecting anything from Mark Mulder." But you're right. Why?

I guess my take is this: His timetable shouldn't be rushed (not that it has been by any means). Now that the team has several available arms, Mulder should be able to continue to take it slow. Once he begins to start games on a rehab assignment, it will certainly take more than two to get his stamina up. I'd say let them get Clement and Pineiro in St. Louis before Mulder.

I still don't expect him to be the pitcher he was in '03, or in '05 for that matter. I'm not sure how you can be injured or out of whack for so long without consequence. I'd be pleased to get league average stuff from him.

by mikeonthecards on Mar 16, 2008 12:05 AM EDT 1 recs

I agree

Aim for something like May 1st and see how it goes.

by chicagocardfan on Mar 16, 2008 12:15 AM EDT up 0 recs

Pat Hentgen

At age 32, Hentgen lost the good part of 2 seasons with Tommy John surgery. During those two years, he pitching in 13 games, went 2-7 with a 4.59 ERA. He was able to return in 2003, make 22 starts with a 7-8 record and 4.09 ERA. The year after that, he was quickly out of baseball at age 35.

Tommy John is nothing like the massive shoulder surgeries Mark has had, though, and age has to be a considerable factor. Something else to consider is Mulder is left handed, which tends to allow average pitchers to stick around a tad longer.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 16, 2008 12:30 AM EDT up 0 recs

a positve answer to your question

I know this is a few days late, but you asked how someone could be injured or out of whack for so long and then come back? Well, what about Chris Carpenter. He missed over half of 02 after being ineffective, all of 03 and came back better than ever. That was after surgeory for a torn labrum. Now I know Mulder's shoulder problems are bad, and the poor return from the first operation casts doubt over everything, but it is possible to return and to return strong from this injury.

by stickman179 on Mar 18, 2008 2:12 PM EDT up 0 recs

Hopeful

i am hopeful, but we have sort of been down this road before. I really hope his arm/shoulder is recovered to the point that he does start with the Cards this year (May?) and adds some much needed value and innings for the 2008 season.
Is it possible to be hopeful and doubtful at the same time?

When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say?

by RosevilleRedbird on Mar 16, 2008 12:25 AM EDT 0 recs

Mulder optimism

On Q1:
Maybe there's reason for Mulder's optimism on mechanics. W/o pain & w/ confidence, his tempo may pick up to where it was in Oakland. Driving more off the mound (though he always was tall & fall) might just quicken his delivery enough that he doesn't have time for the arm hitch & the rest of the flopping arm action he ended up with. Still, best case to me is Innings eater.

On Q2:
W/ Lohse on board, I don't think management will be as tempted bring Mulder back before May. Too little to gain, I think.

Nice mustache there, Hardcore!

by random on Mar 16, 2008 12:40 AM EDT 0 recs

You've got to play with what you brought

We can all wish for his recovery, but at what cost. Does a warm fuzzy feeling go along way against Teschera or Soriono? If they didn't owe him money would he be in camp? Some pitchers have success because of an unusual delivery, (Liriano}, and when it breaks down, trouble ahead. I've been watching Santana since he was rule five. He has lost 2 or 3 mph lately and appears to be releasing a little earlier. He is protecting something. Hammel of the Phillies won't make 15 starts this year...betcha.... The hype is about getting value for what management has spent. Hot dogs and beer. That hill is a tough place to make a living. Mulder might feel like a million bucks. ..........do you want a millon dollar talent on the mound is the question. He needs to feel like 10 mill I would guess.

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on Mar 16, 2008 12:46 AM EDT 0 recs

Crash Davis?

Is that you?

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 16, 2008 12:54 AM EDT up 0 recs

I once

saw him read a book without pictures once...

"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver

by player2bnamedl8r on Mar 16, 2008 11:57 AM EDT up 0 recs

Oh my God,

he hit the bull.

by Jhusk on Mar 18, 2008 11:33 PM EDT up 0 recs

Uhhh

Teschera? Really?? Not to be too condescending as the spelling police but at least make an effort...at least Soriono was in the vicinity...

And Liriano's delivery isn't really unusual at all, it's almost identical to Santana's except he got his elbow higher and was more vertical at scap-loading (if that's what you're talking about then I apologize). Regardless it had almost nothing to do with his success: 3 plus-plus pitches did. The dude threw 98 with a wipeout slider that he could shape and a near-Santanaesque changeup from the left side.

With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch

by joker24 on Mar 16, 2008 10:50 AM EDT up 0 recs

thanks joker, please include correct spelling's next time.

I can learn. Thanks for making my points for me. When they did Liriano's elbow, they said that the tendon looked like it had been abused for a long time. I watched Muldur with the A's for a few years. That arm angle is great while it lasts. The Giants are sure enjoying Zito's breaking ball. If he had a 90mph slider like Liriano, he could spend at least two of those 7 years on the bench.

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on Mar 16, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up 0 recs

There's no way

#1. It wasn't even a consensus opinion that Liriano needed TJ in the first place.
#2. Liriano had been a pitcher for 4 years before he needed TJ. I doubt it had been abused for a long time.
#3. The point still remains that it wasn't his "unusual delivery" that gave him success...unless you are saying it was his delivery that allowed him to throw two "80" pitches and at least a 70 changeup.

I don't see what your point is about Zito or how he came up in this.

And it's spelled Teixeira and Soriano and Mulder and Hamels...

With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch

by joker24 on Mar 16, 2008 4:37 PM EDT up 0 recs

You are right about the spellings

SF gave Liriano up in the trade because of his history of arm problems. Nathan too was recovering. When they removed the tendon they said it was in poor shape. Spindely and elongated I believe was the discription. He was throwing 94 two months ago, which was so incouraging the twins let Santana walk. During todays game they were speculating that he wasn't going to start the season with the team because of two bad outings. Point is, 90mph sliders eat elbow. Throwing big round house curves as a staple, (Zito / Muldur ) doesn't have a future. If they throw the same stuff, they break the same way. You fellas seem to have a lot of stats. How many starting pitchers in the bigs have had the Thomas John hand shake? I know there are a number of relievers.

Westcoastbirdwatcher

by westcoastbirdwatcher on Mar 17, 2008 12:14 AM EDT up 0 recs

Huh?

Zito is such a terrible example of durability. He's averaged over 200 innings for the last 7 years. Has he lost 2-4 mph off his fastball? Yep...as pretty much everyone who is going to throw 1400+ innings will. His problem was that he started off throwing 88 in the first place and lost his margin for error so now he's just not good. Calling out his durability is just flat out wrong at this point. That contract was the bad idea but that's not Zito's fault.

Same stuff hmmmm. So Roy Oswalt's power curve is killing his longevity I see...only 5/6 200+ inning years (and the 6th was hip not arm). Smoltz has been dealing his power slider for almost 20 years albeit with TJ 12 years in...sorry.

SilentBob feel free to correct me but I'd say "spindely and elongated" is a helluva lot better than "torn to shreds" as a lot of guys.

With no evidence to the contrary, Colby Rasmus is clutch

by joker24 on Mar 17, 2008 10:31 AM EDT up 0 recs

What?

I don't understand. Why don't "big round house curves" have a future?

by Jhusk on Mar 18, 2008 11:38 PM EDT up 0 recs

haren

he cost us a stud #1 pitcher who is only 27.

by lopey986 on Mar 16, 2008 1:03 AM EDT 0 recs

Well, Mulder didn't make that decision.

Cardinal management traded for him, and he did his best to perform.

As far as what I expect, I don't know what to expect or when to expect it. Pitchers that manage to come back from this severe of an injury, tend to breakdown again.

Do I care? Yes. Mr. Mulder seems like a decent enough fellow and he's been through a lot. It would be so great if he defied the odds and everything turned out right for him. For now, I wish the Cardinals would just work on making the pitchers they have the best they can be and not even think about the injured pitchers because they are of no help to us right now.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Mar 16, 2008 1:34 AM EDT up 0 recs

duh

pretty sure the "carlton for wise swap" statement was the comparison to haren/mulder...i'm dumb.

by lopey986 on Mar 16, 2008 1:44 AM EDT up 0 recs

Free Agency...

anybody think there's any chance that even if Mulder pitches well the Cards would pick up his $11M option? I say sit him until at least June and then try to build some trade value by the deadline. Teams are always desperate for pitchers. I'm not saying we'd get a whole lot in return but you never know...I'd guess at this point that 4 spots in the rotation for next year could be set barring further injury and assuming a certain prospect doesn't go all Anthony Reyes on us. I'm thinking of course of Wainwright, Carpenter, Piniero, and Garcia

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Mar 16, 2008 2:03 AM EDT 0 recs

If he isn't posting 6.00 ERAs

they will pick up his option. Mozeliak said in the chat that having the option was a great position for the club to be in with no pitching availible on the market next off-season.

I think they are of the mind that if Mulder is healthy, he is staying on the team for 2009.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 16, 2008 2:59 AM EDT up 0 recs

Come to think of it..

potential trade candidates for this year would include:

Duncan - Giants? Maybe an AL team to DH
Reyes - to a non-contender hoping he can regain form
Mulder - (FA) a contender seeking pitching depth
Clement - (FA) a contender seeking pitching depth
Lohse - (FA) a contender seeking pitching depth
Izturis - (FA) think Miguel Cairo type MI depth
Kennedy - cards would have to eat salary but someone could be desperate for a 2B in a pinch
Gonzalez - (FA) AL team to DH
Thompson - Relief help, with prospects up and coming he's expendable
Looper - (FA) could fill set-up role for a contender
Wellemeyer - see Thompson
Glaus - not too likely unless Freese and/or Craig are seriously raking
Anderson - blocked by Molina, could be a nice throw in to a trade
Schumaker - I personally want to see him stay around as the 5th outfielder but I think he could lose his spot to someone with more power and less defense especially since Ankiel can cover CF if Rasmus needs a day off

I think this team could (should) have a very different look by this time next year

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Mar 16, 2008 2:26 AM EDT 0 recs

Even if he is healthy....

it's been a long time since he's pitched much. He won't have much in the way of stamina, nor will he likely be very sharp early on as he has to get back into the groove of things mentally.

They've thrown enough money down the Mulder-hole. There comes a time when you cut your losses, even if they are great, rather than grasping at any sense of return. No sense in digging that hole deeper (to mix my metaphors)

by DiscoJer on Mar 16, 2008 3:46 AM EDT 0 recs

Ha.....no sense in digging that hole deeper

You do know the first rule of holes, don't you? When you find yourself in one, stop digging......

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Mar 16, 2008 10:14 AM EDT up 0 recs

X

I don't care about Mulder for the same reason I don't care about the dot-com that cost me a lot of money five years ago. Understanding history is useful, but I think we know why they made the mistakes they made with Mulder, so there's not much left to discuss with his past. His future is bleak, no matter how much happy-talk the Cardinals feel compelled to spout.

I'd like to move on.

by greenback06 on Mar 16, 2008 4:41 AM EDT 0 recs

I don't care...

because there is nothing that can be done about it now. It was a trade that didn't work out. I think many of us had reservations about the trade at the time (he did fall off the cliff in the 2nd half of the season preceding his move to the BOB), but the trade was made anyway. The opportunity cost (Haren, primarily) certainly hurt the team, but it cannot be undone. Ongoing angst really doesn't help.

If Mulder comes back and is effective, then we will all be excited as hell. It seems, however, pretty unlikely. Shoulder surgery is not Tommy John (as someone above pointed out) and Mulder isn't young -- at least not in baseball terms. I would like to hear about his velocity before I will even consider the possibility he could contribute again. It's oft said that velocity is overrated, but if a guy who used to hover at 92 is bringing it at 85, there is something seriously wrong, and it is highly unlikely he will be effective at the major league level.

by chris13 on Mar 16, 2008 8:39 AM EDT 0 recs

Expect the worst,

and hope for the best... as a fan, I'd love to see Mulder make it "all the way back"; but I admittedly have no idea what he's capable of at this point.

Let him keep working... when the medicos and front office deem him "ready," let's see what we've got! Re-hashing the trade is pointless; what's done is done (and Haren's already been "spun" for more prospects, fercryinoutloud!)

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Mar 16, 2008 10:31 AM EDT 0 recs

I have to say I'm ambivalent

about Mulder for the following reason. Certainly I'd love to see him recover and give the team something for all it gave up to get him. There has been speculation, though, that the real problem for Mark is that he has a permanent issue with his hip and that that has caused his shoulder problems and will continue to do so. Worst case scenario is that he comes back this year, looks like his old self, gets signed to a five year contract, goes down late next year and haunts our payroll well into the next decade. If you think that our crack medical team should be able to guide us on that you should remember that last year they gave Carp the wrong surgery.

by easy on Mar 16, 2008 11:02 AM EDT 0 recs

I don't have faith in Mulder's ability to pitch any longer ...

and I'll site two sources to back that up:

First ... Bernie Miklasz when he says "don't believe Card Mgmt hype on the starters" ... and

Second ... Mark's own brother when he said two years ago Mulder had completely lost the ability to pitch and was toast.

I personally believe Mark's biggest problem is in his hips and not his arm ... I think it fundamentally changed his delivery, causing his arm problems (which supposedly is what's been fixed) ... but without that original delivery, I don't think he'll ever get back to what he was ...

I think he'll be back in early May and have mixed results ... I really like Mark and hope he can 're-define' himself to be as effective as he once was, but I'm not optimistic about it ...

Culture of Winning: 10 World Championships, 17 Pennants, 6 Division Championships ...

by Cardinals4Ever on Mar 16, 2008 12:38 PM EDT 0 recs

The Wrigleyville Big 2 Approach

Living in Des Moines, the city buzzed whenever Wood and Prior would come through on a rehab assignment. Sec Taylor would sell out as Cubbie fans would flock to see the final step before their renaissance in Chicago. That renaissance never came, however, and many became jaded toward the formerly dynamic pitching duo. Nothing was expected of either by the end and Wood's bullpen performance has been a pleasant surprise while Prior's exodus barely registered on fans' radars.

So it is with Mark Mulder. If he can finish the season without injury, it is a plus. If he again suffers a setback, it is expected. One thing is for sure, if he does come back, he will fit in well with our beavy of number four and five type starters.

by bgh on Mar 16, 2008 3:45 PM EDT 0 recs

You live in Des Moines?

I do as well. Are you picking up some tickets for the Memphis 4 game series at the end of April? I'm looking for another Cards fan to tag along with to a couple of games that weekend if you're interested. Be nice to see Colby play a few times if he happens to be there...

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Mar 17, 2008 10:40 AM EDT up 0 recs

Normally, I get tickets for the entire Memphis series

But, I'm in law school and my finals are right after that weekend, which means that attending any, let alone all, of the Memphis vs. I-Cubs games is almost impossible to justify. I think my attendance will be a gametime decision, based on how nice the weather is, how sick I am of studying inside, and how prepared I feel. Thanks for the invite, though. I'm jealous that you'll see Rasmus for the entire set.

by bgh on Mar 17, 2008 1:49 PM EDT up 0 recs

Not to rehash the trade....

"Duncan said his delivery is the best it's been since Mulder came to the Cardinals in a trade before the 2005 season."

...but it scares me if they noticed something wrong with his mechanics before they traded him. Were they that desperate at the time for a big name acquisition?Mulder did deteriorate little by little but at a professional level, you would hope inconsistencies and health information like this could be picked up prior to a blockbuster deal. Godspeed to a quick recovery though. Here's hoping to a comeback similar to April of 2006.

"You cannot fully understand the relations of choice and time until you are beyond both."

-cs lewis

by Crentist on Mar 16, 2008 11:24 PM EDT 0 recs

There is also the possibility

that Dave Duncan wasn't asked to give a rundown of Mulder's mechanics or his opinion on the matter didn't hold weight.

Remember, Tony said that he and Dave fought over what to do with Dan Haren (Dave wanted to keep him). Maybe Dave voiced his concerns about Mark's mechanics and TLR/Jocketty flat out didn't care.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 16, 2008 11:36 PM EDT up 0 recs

The sad thing is ....

we still haven't solved the problem that was the reason for trading for him.

We don't have a left handed starting pitcher, and if I'm not mistaken there are none in the minors either. Haven't had one since Ankiel flamed out. We made that trade because he was arguably the best left handed starter in baseball at the time and Billy Beane was going to make him available. But that's water under the bridge.

He's a sunk cost. I expect nothing from him. I'll only get mad if they do what they did last year and trot him out there and give away 3 or 4 games when he obviously can't pitch at the ML level.

by O'Fallon Park on Mar 16, 2008 11:52 PM EDT 0 recs

sure it was a bad trade...

But we have had a lefty starter since Ankiel flamed out. It was Mark Mulder in '05 when he went 16-8 with a 3.64 ERA. At that point it wasn't looking like too terrible of a trade. His arm crapped out. It happens. And we do have a lefty in the minors. His name is Jaime Garcia. If he stays healthy he is the #2 prospect in the organization IMO. I definately agree with you about being pissed if they let him pitch if he's not ready. Same goes for Carpenter, Clement, and Piniero.

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Mar 17, 2008 3:11 AM EDT up 0 recs

His arm crapped out

as best I can tell, when he took a linedrive off of it in the NLDS Game against the Padres that Fall. Was this ever brought up?

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 17, 2008 3:18 AM EDT up 0 recs

Concede the point ....

that Mulder did a decent job for us in 2005. Sure would of liked to get more than one year for what we gave up.

by O'Fallon Park on Mar 17, 2008 1:23 PM EDT up 0 recs

Count me in the no expectations group...

The only thing I expect from Mulder is him to say he is good to go. Pitch 4 games in AAA with an ERA around 5. Say that it's ok. He was just trying to get his pitch count up. Come up to the Majors and get hammer in two starts before ending up on the DL.

That's what I expect from Mulder. Anything else and I will be plesantly surprised and happy for his come back.

by Evilfrog on Mar 17, 2008 10:49 AM EDT 0 recs

I don't care because...

My caring doesn't change anything. The Mulder trade was a clear mistake at the time, maybe the beginning of the end of the Jocketty era, really. But that is history.

Regardless of the trade, once that contract expired, it became irrelevant to Mulder's future performance--the trade was over. They signed him again, which seemed odd, as he was already in a steep decline. But that is a new transaction.

I asked someone who is an authority on this, if he'd take the under or over of 5.50 for Mulder's ERA this year. He said this:

"Don't quote me, but I'd take nothing. Mulder is a mess and his career is likely over. I doubt he throws an inning this year."

Given that, I'm not paying much attention to him. It's like following Mike Hampton. If Mulder's career is over, why do I care about his most recent rehab activities? Sunk money.

by tarakas on Mar 17, 2008 5:30 PM EDT 0 recs

Mulder is most likely toast

on the mound. He won't be able to regain his old form, but hey, that's ok as far as he is concerned. He'll still be able to cash some fat paychecks and continue to play golf everyday as usual. That pitching rehab is messing with his short game anyway.

Nuthin'....I got nuthin'over here.

by Handsome Jimmy on Mar 17, 2008 8:42 PM EDT 0 recs

remember when...

Whenever I think of Mulder, I always think of that 10-inning shut out he threw versus Clemens. That was some of the best pitching I'd ever seen and I just want to believe he has some of that left. But I digress...

by barry whiteteeth on Mar 18, 2008 5:07 PM EDT 0 recs