nothing to lohse
we switch platforms in two days. remember, the site will be down for a little while on saturday morning (not more than an hour or two, if all goes well), and then the get-started post will appear with a few instructions and what not. farewell to ye olde platform; this is my last post in it.
if the cardinals sign kyle lohse (which they should do), i wouldn't expect him to turn the club into a serious contender. that's not the reason you go out and sign him. the reason you sign him is to keep other guys from having to take on roles they're not ready for, roles that don't give them their best chance to succeed. you sign him so guys like parisi and mclellan can pitch regularly at triple A instead of sporadically out of the bullpen in st louis; so they can work on their secondary pitches and round out their games instead of just trying to survive against big-league hitters. committing to youth doesn't simply mean throwing young guys into the big-league lineup; it means creating pathways for them to reach the big leagues and moving them up when they are ready. it might be argued that parisi can learn just as much as a big-league mop-up man (with big-league coaching) as he can by repeating triple A; he's about to turn 25 and has thrown 550 minor-league innings, 315 of them against elite minor-league competition (ie double A or above). i'd rather he had at least another 10 starts at memphis to work on that changeup of his, but it's debatable how much he would benefit from further seasoning. mclellan, though, has only thrown 30 innings against elite minor-league competition (ie, double A or above). he has only made 12 starts in the last 4 years at any level. if the long-range goal is to have him contend for a spot in the rotation, then in the short run the only thing to do is give him some starts --- at memphis.
which is why you sign lohse. that enables thompson or wellemeyer to go back into the bullpen and reduces the imperative to fill the mop-up role with a not-quite-ready-for-prime-time rookie.
i've written elsewhere about the striking similarity between lohse today and jeff suppan at the time the cards signed him; let me repeat those numbers:
| gs | w-l | era | whip | k/9 | hr/9 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| suppan thru 2003 | 206 | 62-75 | 4.90 | 1.423 | 5.0 | 1.2 |
| lohse thru 2007 | 195 | 63-74 | 4.82 | 1.432 | 5.7 | 1.2 |
and here's a table comparing lohse over the last three seasons (2005-07) to the pitcher he'd ostensibly replace, joel pineiro:
| gs | ip | w-l | era | whip | k/9 | hr/9 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| lohse 2005-07 | 81 | 498 | 23-35 | 4.77 | 1.432 | 5.5 | 1.1 |
| pineiro 2005-07 | 66 | 452 | 22-29 | 5.61 | 1.523 | 5.1 | 1.2 |
now, it's true that pineiro spent all but two months in the dh league over that span, whereas lohse spent half of his time in the non-dh league; that explains part (though not all) of lohse's numerical advantage. but pineiro has performed almost entirely in pitcher's parks, while lohse has pitched predominantly in hitter's parks. it's hard to look at those numbers and conclude that pineiro is a significantly better bet than kyle lohse --- if we're generous to pineiro, we might say he's about as good. insofar as lohse will cost about the same as pineiro for 2008 but won't also require an $8 million guarantee for 2009, as joel did . . . . i mean, what the hell's left to discuss? this is a test of the ownership. if the cards don't sign this guy, then maybe dewitt's really as big a cheapskate as his worst critics say.
a few notes about Bird Land's early look at the minor-league assignments:
- mark worrell, we hardly knew ye. despite pitching well at triple A last year and getting added to the 40-man roster, he has been busted back down to double A --- passed by motte, perez, et al. i guess he didn't make much of an impression on tony n dave earlier this spring.
- for the first time in a couple years, the cards won't have anybody opening the year at double A who came from the previous year's draft --- not, at least, unless mortensen and / or jess todd ends up there. in 2006 nick stavinoha (7th round in the 2005 draft) made that transition; last year john jay (2d round, 2006) did it, although injuries forced him to the DL and, eventually, back down to high A. the 2007 draft is well represented on the palm beach roster. half a dozen of last year's selections --- daniel descalso (3d round), oliver marmol (6th), tyler henley (8th round), stephen hill (13th), arnoldi cruz (26th), and nick derba (30th) --- are already penciled in there, and they may well be joined by mortensen todd and / or kopp (all from the first 2 rounds).
- another noteworthy item about palm beach: a couple of the "tools" draftees (tommy pham and jonathan edwards) apparently will be there, leapfrogging low-A. pham still hasn't gained any traction; he went .205 / .283 / .305 in short-season A last year as a 19-year-old. edwards (also 19 last year) showed a bit more promise at that level, .245 / .345 / .431; all the same, high A seems like an awful big jump for these guys. they'll be joined there by another tools project, daryl jones, who advances despite a .217 / .304 .296 line at low A.
- even with the losses (to promotion) of rasmus, jose martinez, chris perez, and mitch boggs, the springfield roster looks loaded with interesting players: bryan anderson, mark hamilton, john jay, allen craig, ottavino, pj walters. a guy i'd like to learn a bit more about is dan nelson, the second-baseman --- 13th-rounder from the ill-famed 2004 draft. i kind of wonder if he might be this year's jarrett hoffpauir --- has a very good batting eye, hasn't shown a lot of power or ability to hit for average. he draws enough walks that with a .280 average he'd top .400 in obp. he's moving from an extreme pitcher's park at palm beach to a hitter's park in springfield; when jose martinez made that transition last year, his stats took a giant leap forward. compare his trajectory to hoffpauir's and martinez's, particularly their lines at palm beach . . . . . i'll be keeping an eye on this guy.
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that is spooky
by elirock83 on Mar 13, 2008 10:09 AM EDT 0 recs
Sorry
Got any thoughts on Mo's interview Larry?
O/T: Anyone see that brawl between the Yanks and the Rays? Been some bad blood brewing between those two for a few years now. Had quite a few bean ball episodes when Lou was still coachin.
This seemed to stem from a play at the plate a week or so ago. A kid trying to impress lowered his shoulder at the catcher. It resulted in a fracture to the catcher. The Yanks said it was uncalled for, but I didn't see it that way. The kid was young and trying to impress, not some 8 year vet going through ST paces. It was just a hard-nosed play.
This spiking incident by Shelley Duncan was way out of line, IMO. It was after the play, cleats up into the groin and leg. Bush league. Dave, you should be proud...one kid who humps the World Series trophey and another who goes in cleats up. Guess all that talk about playing the game the right way didn't get passed on to your kids?
Gomes seemed to be the first out and leveled Shelly. I've advocated trading for him over several seasons. I think he is greatly underrated, especially by his own management/team. He would be a nice RH outfielder, although defensively challenged.
Here's a video clip.
by RedbirdRay on Mar 13, 2008 10:21 AM EDT 0 recs
re Mo's interview
as to the overall content ---- most of it seemed pretty boilerplate to me. it's amusing that VEB worked its way in there; mom, you really shouldn't have asked mo that question, you're embarrassing me again in front of my friends . . . .
by lboros on
Mar 13, 2008 3:07 PM EDT
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As I said yesterday...
But it brings up a major issue I have always had with things such as these. The internet is a fantastic tool that allows you to do things like ask questions of the general manager of your favorite MLB team. You couldn't do that when I was younger, unless you ran into him somewhere. But it emboldens people to say the kind of things you wouldn't say to another individual if you saw them on the street. I know you (Larry) have had to call out certain posters on VEB from time to time, but the discourse here is pretty tame compared to what I've seen, and sure many others of you have seen, on other bulletin boards and chat sites. The crazies really come out, and they don't mind being insulting or profane or obnoxious. That's one of the reasons I enjoy VEB. There are certainly disagreements, but for the most part, people remain respectful of each other. I congratulate all of you for that.
Regardless of what Mozeliak has or hasn't done in his time on the job, it does not call for a tone of disrespect, as was evident from a number of people yesterday. The man is no fool, and despite what he went through yesterday, the fact that he expressed a willingness to do a chat again is a sign, I dearly hope, that the organization in general is more receptive to fan input that we often give them credit for.
by tbell61 on
Mar 13, 2008 4:18 PM EDT
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Lohse would set up a July trade or two
Carpenter
Mulder
Clement
Wainwright
Lohse
Pineiro
Reyes
Thompson
Wellemeyer
Looper
Waiting in the wings: Parisi, Garcia, and others
The Cardinals could trade one or more experienced starters in July (depending on how healthy and effective Mulder, Clement, and Carpenter are by then) to reinforce the team for 2009 and beyond.
by CardsWin on Mar 13, 2008 10:25 AM EDT 0 recs
This team
by cardsrul on
Mar 13, 2008 1:13 PM EDT
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My thoughts too...
by Hungry Jack on
Mar 13, 2008 2:19 PM EDT
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A surplus of starters by the July trading deadline
Carpenter
Mulder
Clement
Wainwright
Lohse
In the worst case scenario now, the best three among Pineiro, Reyes, Wellemeyer, Thompson, and Looper could step in if Mulder, Carpenter, or Clement all failed to regain their health and effectiveness. And McClellan or Garcia or Parisi could add reinforcement from AAA. They all have looked very good this spring.
by CardsWin on
Mar 13, 2008 5:01 PM EDT
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Hmmm,
I do have to disagree with some of your reasoning. I don't like the comparison to Suppan. While their numbers may be similiar as you pointed out, they are very different pitchers. Lohse has great stuff and scouts view his performance to date as not living up to his potential, Suppan on the other hand has never been a guy that people have expected great things from. In fact, most would say that Suppan has overachieved and Lohse has underachieved through their careers. So, i think that's an apples and oranges comparison of starting pitchers.
I do like the idea that come august the rotation could have 7 healthy canidates. Wainwright, Looper, Mulder, Clement, Carpenter, Pinero, Reyes, and the possibilty of Lohse. those are some nice options. That also makes for quite a sunny 2009. With a couple of nice offseason additions next year, and a summer of getting healthy, the Cardinals could be a monster team again, and this "rebuilding" will look a lot more like reloading.
by stickman179 on Mar 13, 2008 10:35 AM EDT 0 recs
Could rebuilding actually turn into reloading?
If Clement or Mulder came back strong and Carpenter did, too, in July (if Pedro Martinez could last year, why not Carp this year?), then the Cards could even contend for the NL Central championship (sorta like the amazing surprise of September to October 2006, "deja vu all over again").
Supposse we think of Lohse as the replacement for Kip Wells and Mike Maroth. Just in the games which Kip Wells started in 2007 the Cardinal run differential was -79. In games started by Mike Maroth the differential was -25. By odd coincidence, those two differentials add up to -104, exactly equal to the Cardinals' run differential for 2007. (In the three starts by Mulder, who was much too weak to have rejoined the team when he did, the cardinals had an additional 13-run negative differential.)
The Cardinals' record in games Kip Wells started in 2007 was 6-19 in 25 games. If an average pitcher had been in his place, that record could easily have been 12-13, a 6 game improvement, for an overall record of 84 wins. That would have put the Cardinals one game behind the Cubs at the end of the season. The Cardinals record in games Mike Maroth started was 2-5. An average pitcher would likely have enabled the Cardinals to have a 3-4 record, at least. That extra win would have put the Cardinals in a tie with the Cubs at the end of the regular season. The Cardinals lost all three of Mulder's starts last year. All else being equal, winning even one of those three games, with an average starter rather than the weak, still injured Mulder, would have made the Cardinals the NL Central champs.
In games which Wells and Maroth did not start in 2007, the Cardinals had a .538 winning percentage. Considering that the sabermatricians predict that the Cardinals will score a few more runs this year than last (offensive production should be better this year from LF, CF, RF, 3B, and 2B and not as good at SS and C), it seems to be a good bet that the Cardinals will have a winning rate this season a bit higher than their .538 rate last year in games Wells and Maroth did not start.
A .538 record is very unlikely to win the division or the wild card, but at least it would be respectable. If Mulder, Clement, and Carpenter all come back strong, the Cardinals could actually contend.
by CardsWin on
Mar 13, 2008 5:10 PM EDT
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Lohse will give ya INNINGS...
Another example of "ya never have too much pitching"...
by The Ol Goaler on Mar 13, 2008 10:43 AM EDT 0 recs
OT
by bdub78 on Mar 13, 2008 10:54 AM EDT 0 recs
MGL has said a few times
by joker24 on
Mar 13, 2008 11:31 AM EDT
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about lohse and suppan
by mdarshan on Mar 13, 2008 11:03 AM EDT 0 recs
Yesterday
Lboros
Did I read that right yesterday, you have Jeff Luhnows E-mail address?
Come on man, you've got to give that up.
Post it right here>>>>>>>
I've got to tell him about this player I saw last week in small town in Northern Mexico. He is best I've ever seen!!! Clocked his fastball at 108MPH and he hits like Albert!!!!
Sorry no sabermetrics on him, it's a real small town and his team stinks. They only have 8 players, 2 of them are women, and they had a goat playing third base.
But I'm telling you this guy is KING KONG!!!!!!
Now the front office is asking us to scout for them. They couldn't have gotten the idea from my little old joke could they? Naw, can't be.
by That's a Winner on Mar 13, 2008 11:32 AM EDT 0 recs
sign the goat
then buy him a ticket to a game at Wrigley
by random on
Mar 16, 2008 2:01 AM EDT
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Lohse
So PLEASE Mo sign Lohse!!!!!!!!
by Calhoun on Mar 13, 2008 11:38 AM EDT 0 recs
agreed
by ICbirdfan on
Mar 13, 2008 11:48 AM EDT
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heh
by baw on
Mar 13, 2008 12:36 PM EDT
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Lohse is on his way
by westcoastbirdwatcher on
Mar 13, 2008 1:51 PM EDT
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Sign him now
by Jumsy on Mar 13, 2008 12:30 PM EDT 0 recs
Apparently Boras called the Astros
by Hardcore Legend on
Mar 13, 2008 12:36 PM EDT
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That must've been
by cardsrul on
Mar 13, 2008 1:17 PM EDT
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Lbros
by punchinjudy on Mar 13, 2008 12:52 PM EDT 0 recs
Larry, that Palm Beach roster is not set in stone
I do agree completely with what you say about Lohse and DeWitt. A team cannot go for two consecutive years constructing a starting staff with papier mache and wishful thinking, i.e., broken-down arms and converted relievers, while dismissing just about every free agent as too expensive or no better than what we already have. Eventually the piper must be paid. That time is now.
by MikeG on Mar 13, 2008 12:54 PM EDT 0 recs
Today's lineup
Kennedy
Molina
Looper
Izturis
Yuck.
by Hardcore Legend on Mar 13, 2008 1:03 PM EDT 0 recs
Yes,
by ridgesee on
Mar 13, 2008 5:07 PM EDT
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Silver lining?
by cardsfanindenver on
Mar 13, 2008 6:55 PM EDT
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More Lohse v. Pineiro
In 2004, Piniero pitched injured most of the season before being shut down in July (sore elbow; insert cringe here). He came back in 2005 and 2006 to have his worst years as a starter at Safeco Field, a pitcher's park. He started 25 games in 2006 before being moved to the bullpen, where he appeared in 15 more games before Seattle gave up on him and his 6.36 ERA. The two seasons before then, Pineiro had been a top-of-the-rotation pitcher, whose ERA had been below 4.00 both years (3.24 and 3.78). He appeared in 31 games and pitched 34 innings for the Red Sox last year, pitching better (5.03) than his nadir season despite being in the biggest hitter's park in the league. Of course, we all know what happened when he came to St. Louis, which turned his 2007 line to a 4.33 ERA and 1.392 WHIP in 97 INP.
Lohse, meanwhile, has been healthy and mostly below league average with some dips into the woeful. In 2006 (was this a bad year for pitchers?), he started 34 games but only pitched 126.2 innings between Minnesota and Cincinnati, earning a 5.83 ERA. He did better the last season and a half in a hitter's park, but after his trade struggled in his 61 innings in Philly, supposedly a park kinder to pitchers than Cincy's (Citizens Bank Park was about in the middle in park factors last year). Before the three years lboros quoted, Lohse's average ERA was about 4.73 ERA and a 1.431 WHIP in the three seasons in Minnesota.
Basically, Pitcher 1 is a former top-rotation guy who struggled with his mechanics and confidence for two seasons while being bounced to the bullpen before pitching very well in limited starting action last year (about a third of a normal starter's year). Pitcher 2 is a durable guy who's somewhere south of medicore on his best day. It's not really fair to compare the two's stats as if they had the same experiences in the same parks in the same leagues facing the same batters in the same situations. I really don't agree that Lohse is a better pitcher than Pineiro; if we're talking about predictablity, sure, but only because Lohse is predictably bad whereas Pineiro shows at times (like his 11 games last season) that he can be a better pitcher his overall stats say he is.
That said, it is Lohse's durability that is attractive. In fact, it's the only thing that's real attractive to me. If Lohse was still looking a multi-year deal or anything more than $5 million, even at this point I'd hang up the phone. But lboro's main point--that this is about protecting the young arms like McClellan, Garcia, and Parisi--is still a problem that has to be dealt with.
The real question is whether Lohse solves that. Signing him now doesn't fill the hole in the rotation during the first month of the season; Lohse has missed all of spring training and has to be physically up to speed. The danger of exposure is still there, Lohse or not. Lohse's durability definitely would help by taking the stress off of the spot starter guys, but not until the end April, probably.
by Forsch31 on Mar 13, 2008 1:09 PM EDT 0 recs
lohse
by SprfldCards on
Mar 13, 2008 1:26 PM EDT
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Lohse is on his way
by westcoastbirdwatcher on
Mar 13, 2008 1:46 PM EDT
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Why do you keep saying he is on his way
by Hardcore Legend on
Mar 13, 2008 2:03 PM EDT
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readiness
by SprfldCards on
Mar 13, 2008 3:34 PM EDT
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good...
by cardschinmusic on
Mar 14, 2008 7:35 AM EDT
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Mike Shannon just said that
by Hardcore Legend on Mar 13, 2008 1:15 PM EDT 0 recs
Lineup
by t7rick on Mar 13, 2008 1:24 PM EDT 0 recs
That was a BIG at bat for Adam ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Mar 13, 2008 1:29 PM EDT 0 recs
shocking news
by SleepyCA on Mar 13, 2008 1:41 PM EDT 0 recs
juan
by elirock83 on
Mar 13, 2008 2:39 PM EDT
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more likely...
by indakind on
Mar 13, 2008 2:53 PM EDT
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What a surprise ...
by Cardinals4Ever on Mar 13, 2008 1:45 PM EDT 0 recs
I missed
by beanocook on
Mar 13, 2008 3:20 PM EDT
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In Juan's case...
by DiscoJer on
Mar 13, 2008 4:19 PM EDT
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Izturis
by RedbirdRay on Mar 13, 2008 1:48 PM EDT 0 recs
Duncan
Has he hit a wall? A prolonged slump from the 2nd half of last season?
Perhaps those who wanted him traded last off-season and during the trade deadline last year were right...
by stltrav09 on Mar 13, 2008 1:49 PM EDT 0 recs
He's been injured
He'll be fine.
by Hardcore Legend on
Mar 13, 2008 1:55 PM EDT
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Just checked the stats...
by stltrav09 on
Mar 13, 2008 1:58 PM EDT
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The BIG baseball news of the day
by BTown Birds fan on Mar 13, 2008 1:57 PM EDT 0 recs
Skippy having a scrappy
by Hardcore Legend on Mar 13, 2008 2:03 PM EDT 0 recs
Please post the formula for calculating
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Mar 13, 2008 2:23 PM EDT
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It's fairly simple
That's usually the way I see it calculated but I know that there has been a movement since Eckstein's record setting 2006 World Series to re-evaluate the calculations are made.
by Hardcore Legend on
Mar 13, 2008 2:29 PM EDT
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the new formula
by lboros on
Mar 13, 2008 3:09 PM EDT
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Does scatching your ass when on 1st base
by ridgesee on
Mar 13, 2008 9:07 PM EDT
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I'm pretty sure
by arch support on
Mar 13, 2008 3:34 PM EDT
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It was
It's an evolving metric. What's important is, though, is that LaRussa is on the cutting edge of using it.
by Hardcore Legend on
Mar 13, 2008 3:37 PM EDT
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but yet
by beanocook on
Mar 13, 2008 3:40 PM EDT
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Too much power
He also makes too many plays inside his zone and has too strong of an arm.
by Hardcore Legend on
Mar 13, 2008 3:43 PM EDT
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plus he's wayyyy too big
by lboros on
Mar 13, 2008 3:47 PM EDT
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based on sightings
Maybe he didn't play this spring because when TLR looked down the bench for replacement players he did not see him.
by ICbirdfan on
Mar 13, 2008 4:05 PM EDT
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no
by SleepyCA on
Mar 13, 2008 4:31 PM EDT
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not really
by SleepyCA on
Mar 13, 2008 3:45 PM EDT
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Juan G
Or maybe it's a non-issue, but I've been wondering about it.
by awpierce on Mar 13, 2008 2:04 PM EDT 0 recs
Lohse is a Cardinal to be
by westcoastbirdwatcher on Mar 13, 2008 2:12 PM EDT 0 recs
To repeat HC's question from below
by BTown Birds fan on
Mar 13, 2008 2:17 PM EDT
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