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Around SBN: In Crunch Time, Spurs Don't Change Their Game

NL Central: Chicago Cubs

As an analyst, you always want to be as objective as possible. I make a concerted effort to set aside my baseball loyalties when I'm evaluating other teams or players. My preconceived notions aren't going to do anything but hinder an accurate estimation of talent levels. As a writer on a team-centric blog, there's less need to be 100% objective. Expressing those loyalties and feelings about the team that everyone is rooting for isn't a bad thing and often let readers connect to the writing better. In some ways, I'm reminded of Emily Dickinson's poem Tell all the truth but tell it slant:

Tell all the Truth but tell it slant --
Success in Circuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truth's superb surprise

As Lightning to the Children eased
With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind --


With all that in mind, I hate the Cubs.

It's not a little hate; it's a visceral deeply rooted one. I don't like to see their team have success. I don't like their players. I don't like their coaches. I don't like them. I want them to reach their Century of Futility, to withhold the joy of a World Series that we so recently experienced. I don't want good things for them. Period.

Tragically, on paper, they appear to be the best team in the NL Central. If they acquire Brian Roberts, I'd call them the runaway favorites. It may be some time before they wrap up that deal given the glacial speed of the Orioles but the Cubs are a good team with a few weaknesses that are built to win now.

Star-divide

Starting Position Players:

Geovany Soto, C; Derrek Lee, 1B; Mark DeRosa, 2B; Ryan Theriot, SS; Aramis Ramirez, 3B; Kosuke Fukudome, RF; Felix Pie, CF; Alfonso Soriano, LF

Remember when Lee when apeshit on the league back in 2005. He hit .335/.418/.662 with 46 bombs and every Cubs fan thought this was his new level of production; that they had found a counter to Pujols. Someone that would carry their team offensively moving forward. Besides the fact that he was almost certainly bound to regress, he suffered a broken wrist in 2006 and his power dropped off considerably from 2005. He lost 125 points of ISO compared to that career year and has only hit 30 homeruns in 2006 & 2007. He still represents the most potent bat in the Cubs lineup primarily because he walks a great deal with an OBP nearing .400.

Ramirez and Soriano are the other holdover offensive powerhouses. Both players are more reliant on their power than Lee to be productive but they both have power in spades. At 32, Soriano has an unseemly 7 years left on his contract. I'm just waiting to enjoy the albatross that that becomes. Ramirez signed a somewhat club friendly contract shortly after declaring free agency. Both are above average players capable of having MVP type career years.

DeRosa and Theriot are both over-exposed as regulars but Theriot much more so. It's possible that Ronny Cedeno could re-emerge in the SS picture but that ship appears to have sailed. Theriot was not a good player last year posting an OBP of .323 and an OPS of .669 with average defense at SS. Yet the Cubs seem to be pondering the idea of batting him at the top of the order, which is perplexing at best. Roberts addition would push DeRosa back into the super-sub role and probably represents a 1-2 win upgrade.

I'll admit my ignorance regarding Pie (pronounced pee-yay). He's been in the Cubs system the last few years and has gotten mixed reviews. He's alternately been called the next Corey Patterson and an All-Star. The truth, of course, is somewhere in the middle and Pie will probably settle in as decent player that doesn't hurt the Cubs in any way and could potentially be a boost. He's regarded as a good fielder with decent power, good speed and some lingering questions about his bat.

The two most interesting players on the team, in my opinion, are Kosuke Fukudome and Geovany Soto. While I was disheartened to hear that Fukudome may where his first name on his jersey, I was more disheartened by the massive OBP upgrade he offers to the Cubs. I'll be shocked if a writer at some point this year doesn't comment on Fukudome "lacking the power to play a corner outfield position" or some other such garbage along those lines. The standard mantra for people obsessed with getting a certain type of production from a certain position will cloud the fact that the Cubs don't need more power, they needed an on base threat at the top of their lineup.  More importantly, even without above average power production, Fukudome can be an above average player - something that seems to perplex those aforementioned writers. If Fukudome bats second, the Cubs will score a lot of runs this year.

Soto is the top catching prospect from last year who took over the major league job. Writers wasted no time in falling all over themselves based on his performance last year. He suddenly became a top prospect after failing to even be recognized the previous year in some cases. As someone who watches the minors, I can see how easy it is to become completely enamored with a prospect when they perform well (see: Mather, Joe; Hoffpauir, Jarrett) but I don't think Soto is a particularly good hitter despite the success he experienced last year. He's someone I'll be keeping a close eye on to find out whether I was missing out on something or if regression continues to be the heartless character it always is.

Starting Rotation:

Carlos Zambrano, Ted Lilly, Rich Hill and some combination of Ryan Dempster, Jason Marquis, Jon Lieber and Sean Marshall

Zambrano is arguably the best pitcher in the NL Central with Roy Oswalt as the only real competition after Chris Carpenter was injured. If nothing else he's certainly the most entertaining pitcher in the Central when we consider player brawls. His demeanor is both an asset and a hinderance but he's shown that he can handle the innings workload and dominate teams. He fits that front of the rotation mold to perfection.

Ted Lilly was championed by LBoros during the previous offseason, and he delivered the goods in 2007. With career highs in innings pitched and strikeouts, Lilly was an excellent lefthanded pitcher last year. Projection systems aren't particularly high on him moving forward but it will be interesting to see if he can continue to build on his success since moving to the NL.

Rich Hill is Lilly's wronghanded counterpart. A dominant pitcher in the minors from 2005-2006, he was labeled as something of a tweener when he failed to emerge in the big leagues after opportunities both years. He brought his 5:1 K:BB rate from the last two years in the minors and found himself on the mound last season pitching 195 innings striking out 183 batters against 63 walks. He's not young for someone entering their second full year in the bigs but at 28 he's a cautionary tale for giving up on promising arms too quickly.

The rotation options after the first three are all in the "We need someone to pitch today category" with the exception of Sean Marshall. I liked the Jon Lieber signing although there's questions as to how much he'll have left after a foot injury and age. Dempster and Marquis both seem like the same pitcher to me and not one you particularly want on your team. It's also possible that we could see Marquis relegated to the bullpen just a year after signing that 21M dollar deal that gave everyone quite a chuckle in these parts. The rotation should be solid at worst and probably quite good given the stuff and success of the front three. This probably isn't the place the Cubs will crumble although if it is going to be anywhere, it's still the pitching. . .

Bullpen:

Bobby Howry, Scott Eyre, Carlos Marmol, Kerry Wood, warm bodies

Rather it's the pitching out of the bullpen that's going to be their death. Hope springs eternal as I read articles of Kerry Wood possibly being the closer this year. I'm continually shocked at the conviction of Kerry Wood supporters that he'll get better and return to some kind of dominant form. The fact that his arm is still attached to his body is a moral victory if you ask me. The clock struck midnight and Scott Eyre turned into a lefthanded pumpkin last year. Say it with me now, "Multi-year contracts for middle relievers rarely work out." While he's still marginally effective against left-handed hitters, the skills are deteriorating rapidly and he's now the type of reliever you could pluck out of the minor leagues for free.

Howry and Marmol are both going to be the foundation for the bullpen this year. Howry seems to have an inside track on the closer's job and while he's nearing the twilight of his career at age 34, he's still effective enough to be a closer. Carlos Marmol may have single handedly saved the Cubs last year as the kid came in with stones and put out fires whenever called upon. He had a game leverage index of 1.14 last season meaning he was used in situations that were significantly more difficult than average. He ended 2007 having pitched nearly 70 innings with a 1.43 ERA and a FIP well under 3.00 -- if he can replicate production anywhere near that level, he'll have gone a long way to solidfying the bullpen in the Windy City.

Summary:

The Cubs feature one of the best lineups in the NL and by the end of the season they may prove to be the best. Imagine if they complete the Roberts trade they can bat Roberts, Fukudome, Lee, Ramirez, Soriano1 through 5. Add in Pie and Soto who could both be above average and it's easy to see them fielding a team with above average offensive production everywhere except for SS. The pitching is much more suspect than the hitting. If any one of Zambrano, Hill or Lilly wind up on the DL for a significant period of time the Cubs could struggle. The drop-off to their replacement pitcher is pretty sizable. I'm ambivalent on the detriment that the bullpen is going to cause to the Cubs. Relievers are a fungible commodity in large part and the Cubs showed last year they're willing to take a live arm (Marmol) and put him in a situation to succeed.

I don't like the Cubs. I never will but I think they're going to win the NL Central.

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I agree
when Alex Gonzalez booted that grounder in the NLCS vs. the Marlins, I jumped up and screamed "The Curse Lives!"  I detest them but they're still the best team in the division.  I'd like to see the Brewers win it, but I think it'll be the Cubs.

by chuckb on Feb 29, 2008 10:16 AM EST reply actions  

here's a question I always ask
would you prefer:

1.  For their team not to succeed at all

or

2.  For their team to succeed, get to the playoffs, and get slaughtered at some point, with multiple errors, baserunning gaffes, balls over Soriano's head, Zambrano explosions, etc.?

by sdrone on Feb 29, 2008 10:17 AM EST reply actions  

In a sick
and twisted way, I'd prefer B. Letting them and their fans get their hopes up and their heads high, only to be brought back down by the eternally damning fact that they are the Cubs. But that's just me.
Viva el Birdos and Viva el Bartman.

by The Gottfather on Feb 29, 2008 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

To quote myself...
From my diary during last years playoffs...

"Gawd, Cubs fans are pathetic. Which is why I need them to win a couple games.  I need the Cubs fans that I work and live with to have hope, so that hope can be dashed by the tramatic seemingly random event (ie bartman) that will leave them talking about how they are losers for years to come."

Yes the Cubs are the one thing on this earth that I can truly sayy I hate!

by BigJawnMize on Feb 29, 2008 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

2, definitely 2
My perfect season every year is for the Cards to win the division, the Cubs to win the wild card, and then watch the Cubs get embarrassed at some point during the playoffs.  It would be even better if the Cards were to give the coup de grace, but if it's someone else than it works too.  I was really disappointed that the Cards didn't have much of a season last year, but watching Ted Lilly throw his glove better than he'd thrown the baseball was almost worth it.  

Still, the Scrubs are the best team in the division.  I think the Crew is more talented, but their defense (or lack thereof) and their manager are lethal,  Achilles-heel-type flaws.  It pains me to say this, but a repeat of last year (Brewers getting off to a lead, then crapping the bed while the Cubs get back into it) wouldn't shock me in the least.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Feb 29, 2008 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I like a little variation.
Sometimes it's nice to see your rival's hopes get crushed in October, but personally, I fondly remember seasons when springtime meant flowers, bunnies, warm breezes, and the Cubs being mathematically eliminated from the playoffs.

That's not going to happen this year, of course...hmmm...how about:

3. They tie with the Cardinals...errr, well, if I have to try to be vaguely realistic, the Reds...at the end of the season, and go down in a towering ball of fire in the tiebreaker game.

What I really dislike is them winning the season series with the Cardinals.  If we can't make the playoffs, please let us just beat the Cubs for no apparent reason.

"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill

by lordsummer on Feb 29, 2008 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Run Away Favorites?
I'm pretty sure it was 2004 when the Cards were listed as 3rd place for the NL Central by all the "experts".

I'm not saying I don't agree with what you're saying. I'm a Cub hater all the way, mostly because of their fans. And I'm also skeptical about the team that is going to run onto the field opening day, but let's have a little faith. It is the Cubs and it's been 99 years for a reason.

by JShell73 on Feb 29, 2008 10:20 AM EST reply actions  

In 2004
smart people  knew the Cardinals were a good bet to win a lot of games. I think you are thinking of the wrong experts.

It is likely that the Cubs will win a lot of games this year too. At least 85+ anyway. But there are plenty of other scenarios that aren't as likely but completely plausible, which is why it's fun to pay attention no matter how sophisticated the analysis.

by plh903 on Feb 29, 2008 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Btw, Fukudome
is usually slotted in the 5th spot in the order, to protect Ramirez.  

Given Lee's home run "dropoff", his ability to drive the ball, and his OBP, he seems like the type of player TLR might slot into the #2 spot in the order.

Chicago writers don't bring that up much.  Lou Piniella doesn't seem to want to discuss it.  I think he thinks moving either Soriano to 4th or 5th spot or moving Lee to 2nd would be a slap to their ego that could disrupt their entire season.

Of course, if you move Lee into the 2 spot, Soriano sees even MORE fastballs.  

If Fukodome just starts hitting the crap out of the ball, I'm curious to see where they put him in the lineup.

by sdrone on Feb 29, 2008 10:40 AM EST reply actions  

The-riot
Theriot has no power but had very nice walk rates and on base skills in the minors.  He's not young, though, so you might be right about his over-exposure.  

Pie is still nice and young.  He has good plate discipline and his power has seemed to be steadily developing with his age.   He projects nicely in most every projection system.   I think he will be a lot better than Corey Patterson (unfortunately).

by RedbirdRay on Feb 29, 2008 10:44 AM EST reply actions  

Heh. Good plate discipline?
He was sent back down to AAA last year to work on taking pitches.  'cuase he basically doesn't do that.

by sdrone on Feb 29, 2008 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Theriot=Ryan
I see these guys basically being the same player.  I would say that Ryan Theriot is a better "baseball player" just from watching though.

by ICbirdfan on Feb 29, 2008 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

True
That is very ironic!

I think a Theriot is a great fit for the Cubs, as all he needs to do is get on base some, play D, and make those hustle plays.  I don't think in this day and age of more offensive SS, he is a great player but I think he is pretty good.

Lets see how getting exposed to a whole season treats him.

by ICbirdfan on Feb 29, 2008 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

1908
that is all that I really have to say about the northsiders.
Nuthin'....I got nuthin'over here.

by Handsome Jimmy on Feb 29, 2008 10:44 AM EST reply actions  

They're approaching
...a literal century of ineptitude.  
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Feb 29, 2008 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

almost makes you feel sorry for them
In Chicago last summer, I bought a souvenir Cubs baseball that proudly celebrates "2 times World Series Champions" for the 1907 and 1908 World Series.

It looks great on the shelf with, among others, a Cardinals 2006 World Series souvenir baseball.

by madridbend on Feb 29, 2008 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Large Number of Fair Weather Cub Fans
I lived in Champaign in the Bartman playoffs.  And it was unbelievable how many brand new, royal blue cub hats and shirts surfaced once that team made the playoffs.  

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to sit by the guy with the hat that's falling apart because he's worn it every day for a decade and it now smells like rotten ass...but the bandwagon cubby love was out of control.  

There are few certanties in this world, but one is that the Cubs will always find away to blow up.  Also, how exciting is the prospect of a Wrigley Field name change?  Hell, its as good an excuse for losing as some guy with his 1985 walk man I think.

by mwinf12 on Feb 29, 2008 10:52 AM EST reply actions  

Awww...
No matter how much I hate the Cubs and trust me I hate them more then anything........ But changing the name of Wrigley Field would piss me off.....
I would be pissed off for about 5 minutes Then I would be like who cares?

by Calhoun on Feb 29, 2008 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

It won't be completely changed changed.
It'll be "Wrigley Field at Tampax Park" or "Wrigley Field at Enron Place" or maybe "Helzburg Diamond at Wrigley Field."

by sdrone on Feb 29, 2008 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

More Fair Weather Fans
I was attending EIU (a campus made up of a lot of people from Chicago) when the Cubs were in the Playoffs and even when the White Sox were in the Series.  A lot of fans showed up out of nowhere for those teams.  Supposedly there is a hatred between the Cubs and Sox, but it's hard to believe when you see the same people wearing one color one year and their "hated" color the next.  I'm thinking it's just a Chicago thing...

by Jumsy on Feb 29, 2008 11:27 AM EST reply actions  

I was at Illinois State that year.
Ugh. I made fun of them for declaring 2003 to be the  year-especially since they were only there because the Cards bullpen fell apart. The level of bandwagon fandom was sickening, nauseating...or as the French say, insupportable.

When the Cubs got up 3-1 in that series, I predicted the Marlins would come back and win. I was dismissed as a bitter Cards fan, a sore loser, that I wasn't being realistic. Then Game 6 happened. I was in a meeting when I heard the Cubs were up 3-0 late in the game. People were out on the Quad celebrating already. After the meeting let up I wondered why everything was so quiet around campus. I walked into the campus coffee shop to discover the Marlins up 8-3 and everybody looked like somebody died. My response: YEEESSSSSSSSS!!!!! THE CURSE LIVES! That got me some nasty looks, but the few Sox fans around high-fived me.

After Game 7 I wanted to celebrate. Sure, I wanted to feel bad for my friends-at least 80% of whom are Cubs fans-but I JUST COULD NOT. It felt too sweet. It still does, 5 years later.

I'm like many of you-I can't root for that team-period. I'd even root for the Red Sox over the Cubs, such is my level of sheer hatred. I know it isn't healthy....but man does it feel good. Now if we could beat them in the season series this year....

by matt reeder on Feb 29, 2008 11:40 AM EST reply actions  

Whoa!!
Root for the Red Sox over the Cubs??? Wow Matt I don't know if I could do that...
I would probably shoot myself before I rooted for either team......
Nice story dude I love hearing about how stupid Cubs fans are..

by Calhoun on Feb 29, 2008 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I was there too
I was at Illinois State too that year, but even better I was there in 2004.  What I really thought was pathetic though were the number of Houston Astro hats and Jersey's I saw pop up that year worn by the same cub fans who came out of the woodwork the year before.

by Jtip20 on Feb 29, 2008 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Tony doesn't like you posting poems
when it comes to the Cubs.  He may just attack you with a Fungo bat.

Anyways, I guess if I honestly thought the Cubs could close the deal once in awhile, I'd care.  Over the last 10 years, the Astros have been more of a rival with the Cardinals than the Cubs have.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 29, 2008 11:47 AM EST reply actions  

Astros
Ain't that the truth..

by Calhoun on Feb 29, 2008 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

ATTN: Anyone with SNY?
Anyone out there with SNY, can you please record today's ST game for me?  I can make it worth your while.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 29, 2008 11:47 AM EST reply actions  

I have the game going
on my DirecTV DVR just in case the Cardinals win.

by LTSmash on Feb 29, 2008 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Could Cards be spoilers for the Cubs?
The Cards seem to have very little chance of winning the NL Central over the Cubs and Brewers, unless a LOT of breaks go the Cardinals way (strong recovery by Clement, Mulder, Carpenter; Reyes finds himself; Pujols' elbow holds up; Glaus' foot is okay; a good lead-off hitter emerges (Barton?); Izturis surprises; Kennedy rebounds, etc.).

But the Cardinals could be spoilers against the Cubs.  12 of the 15 games between the two teams come in July or later, when Carpenter might be healthy again (and supposedly Clement and/or Mulder will have already strengthened the rotation).  Also, Rasmus should be up by then.  So the Cardinals should be much stronger by the time they play those last 12 games.  

The Cards will probably be too far behind to catch up to the Cubs and Brewers, but if they do well head to head with Chicago, it could knock the Cubs out of first place and give the Brewers the championship (or a surprising Reds team, maybe).

by CardsWin on Feb 29, 2008 11:52 AM EST reply actions  

I like the way you think
The Cards don't look anything like a great team, but they still have a solid chance at putting up a good fight, especially later in the season.  If they can directly dash the hopes of the Cubbie faithful, it's all the more sweeter.

by john vb on Feb 29, 2008 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

My Take
Nice analysis - even balance between entertainment and facts, that I agree with

Disdain - a word invented for my feelings toward The Small Bears and all related

Working in and around Chicagoland for the last 5 years, I have thoroughly enjoy watching their hopes thermometer rise and then fall, rise and then get smashed against the wall.  A very beautiful thing to watch up close.  And make no mistake about it, Cardinal envy/hate is very intense in Cub land - as well as the Cub-Sox rivalry.

I, too, fear that the Cubs may have found the missing pieces to go along with their obvious strengths in every phase of the game.  Lou Piniella's steady hand, the semi-maturing of Big Z, the understated excellence of Ted Lilly and a host of young talents who could blossom - all are indicators of a good 08 for Cubs.

If I were an objective gambler, I'd be betting on them.  Being who I am, I shall cheer for their meteoric rise and cataclysmic crash in bizarre and humorous ways.

by Hinkster on Feb 29, 2008 12:14 PM EST reply actions  

How many times
have the Cubs been declared the favorites to win the NL Central in the past few years, and yet didn't win?  While I agree their lineup appears formidable and their rotation appears solid, something always seems to come between that team and the prize.  In this case, I'm going to guess it will be an injury-prone lineup that will do the trick.  They've got a lineup with too many players on the wrong side of 30.

Further, not too many people have noticed the canary in the coal mine with Zambrano; his strikeout-to-walk rate has dropped off a lot.

This is a team that won a weak division last year with 85 wins with a lot of things that went right for them; they spent an awful lot of money to pick up what they hope to be an OBP machine in Fukudome but is an unproven commodity in American baseball.

The games are not won on paper, they are won on the field.  Piniella's teams in the second year of great success tend to regress (see the 1991 Reds and the 2002 Mariners, who failed to even make the postseason).  There is reason to believe that despite what appears to be the team to beat on the stat sheet, the Cubs are beatable and a lot weaker than they appear.

I'd be a lot more optimistic if I were a Brewers fan in 2008 about my chances.

by LTSmash on Feb 29, 2008 12:36 PM EST reply actions  

nice
"canary in a coal mine"............I'll be stealing that one

by Hinkster on Feb 29, 2008 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Growing Up
My favorite time of year was the June Swoon.

by birdsonthebat on Feb 29, 2008 12:49 PM EST reply actions  

Lineups
Barton CF
Duncan LF
Pujols 1B
Glaus 3B
Juan Gon DH
Ludwick RF
Molina C
Miles 2B
Ryan SS

Mets:
Reyes
Clark
Wright
Delgado
Alou
Church
Castro
Pagan
Hernandez

Unofficial President of the Skip Schumaker Fan Club

by stltrav09 on Feb 29, 2008 12:57 PM EST reply actions  

Rasmus
Was hoping to get to see Rasmus hit off Johan but oh well.. I'm sure he'll sub in around the 4th or 5th.
Unofficial President of the Skip Schumaker Fan Club

by stltrav09 on Feb 29, 2008 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Hate is a strong word!

  I'm all for rivalries in sports. But hate is a strong word. We lost to The Tigers in 68. At that time the city of Detroit was in total turmoil. Sure I was upset the Cards lost that series. It wasn't until I was an adult did I hear how much healing that brought to Detroit. Much of the same can be said for the the city of Boston in 2004.
   So would it be so bad if the Scrubs actually won one? It wouldn't be like we lost the series to them! Just one mans opinion. As the infamous Rodney King said"Why can't we all just get along."
CliffNotes

by CliffNotes on Feb 29, 2008 1:15 PM EST reply actions  

sports as outlet for emotions
i think that sports are the perfect outlet for emotions like hatred. i hate the cubs. i don't really hate anything in my personal life but i hate all things cub...including ron santo and that shithole place they play.

by indakind on Feb 29, 2008 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Come on guy
I hate the Cubs as much as the next guy, but there's nothing shitty about Wrigley Field.  I love that place, and would rather watch a game there then almost any place in the country.  

by eglasier on Feb 29, 2008 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe most
people use "hate" in this context in the same way they use "love" when saying "I love pizza." Nothing to get in a literal tizzy over.

by rockin redbird on Feb 29, 2008 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

You'll never see me say I hate a person
but the "Cubs" as a concept or abstract form, if you will, that I hate.  

by azruavatar on Feb 29, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah...
Nowadays saying I hate something is just like saying I don't like something.  I have said "I hate that guy" before but it doesn't mean I actually hate them it just means I don't like them..  BUT I actually do HATE the Cubs I respect their fans but I HATE their team literally..

by Calhoun on Feb 29, 2008 10:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Cliff Notes
Your kindness and socialistic approach ........this is baseball, a life diversion, not The Great Commandment.  May the Cubs of '08 crash hard like I wish the Tigers of '68 and the BoSox of '68 had.  Love ya brother

Hinkster

by Hinkster on Feb 29, 2008 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

dunc/albert
nice ab's by those guys against johan
dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas

by Neth on Feb 29, 2008 1:21 PM EST reply actions  

YAHTZEE!
Juan Gone takes the Billion Dollar Man DEEEEP.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 29, 2008 1:22 PM EST reply actions  

Juan Gone
just took Superman deep. A pox on the Pond Scum!
"The moment we want to believe something, we suddenly see all the arguments for it, and become blind to the arguments against it."

by cardsrul on Feb 29, 2008 1:24 PM EST reply actions  

i like
mlb's new media player, esp that you can get the box score up on the left now.

however, i don't enjoy watching well hit balls off wainer on said media player

dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas

by Neth on Feb 29, 2008 1:29 PM EST reply actions  

Wainwright looks like poo
today.  He hasn't hit a spot yet.  Doesn't help that Aaron Miles has a noodle arm.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 29, 2008 1:30 PM EST reply actions  

Much better in the 2nd inning
Hope to see what Glaus and Juan can do the 2nd time around.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 29, 2008 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Not the team, but the idea
 
I don't hate the Cubs as a team.  

I hate the ideas of the Cubs surrounding the team. I dislike any "cult of personalities" built around one aspect of a team...that's why I don't like the "Cardinal Nation" bullshit, or Hadley the Homer.  Same with the bleacher bums, Wrigley field, and all those lame ass Cub bars in Wrigelyville.

As to the team itself, not my favorites, but they have some good ballplayers.  I will watch a Cubs game on WGN from time to time...and when they lose, I don't feel bad.  When the Cardinals lose, I feel bad.  And when it's Cubs/Cards, it's fun to watch.

"The Food Channel: Porn for fat people"

by bukowski on Feb 29, 2008 1:32 PM EST reply actions  

aaron miles,
ladies and gents. fielder extraordinaire.
dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas

by Neth on Feb 29, 2008 1:34 PM EST reply actions  

Is there ANY chance he can get cut
before the end of camp?
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 29, 2008 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

God i hope so
maybe Ryan can keep throwing up tripples.

by TICY on Feb 29, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Spring Training Game
I made a diary in case people wanted to talk about today's game vs. the mets, or if people wanted to know what was happening and don't have a chance to watch it.  I figured that would be better than the main thread, but i may be wrong.

by Molina4MVP on Feb 29, 2008 1:43 PM EST reply actions  

Brian Barton
His swing seems so good and he appears to have a decent eye, he just doesn't make very good contact.  I hope they don't give up on him early.  I'd really like to see him stick with the team.
Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 29, 2008 1:47 PM EST reply actions  

Aaron Miles makes me think
anyone can play baseball. I guess he's just working on diving for groundballs this early, huh?

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 29, 2008 2:12 PM EST reply actions  

I sometimes feel
that I am the only Cards fan on the planet who doesn't have a visceral hatred of the Cubs. I certainly don't like them, but I don't pay them much mind when they aren't playing the Cards. It probably has something to do with the fact that I live about a half-mile south of Wrigley.

by Hungry Jack on Feb 29, 2008 3:02 PM EST reply actions  

Wouldn't that make you hate
them more?

Though frankly (I live in a Chicago burb) I enjoy watching them on TV.   I often miss their really bad games; for whatever reason, they seem to blow up in afternoon games.

by sdrone on Feb 29, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't hate
Cub fans; I just feel better when they're not around. After living in Chicago from '85-'90 and now 3 hrs south since '93, I am constantly amazed by their sense of entitlement. It's always their year because they deserve it. Because they're Cub fans. Happily, the GOB (God Of Baseball) always hears this and punishes them for their more-than-ridiculous hubris. I am in the camp that enjoys watching them succeed just enough to feed the hopes of their zillions of fair-weather fans--only to witness those hopes dashed in yet another blazing explosion of ineptitude. Gotta hand it to their marketers though. They've done a helluva job since around '89 of making the biggest losers in sports history somehow a hip thing to be part of. It has a lot to do with The Sacred Pile Of Bricks (which I can't wait to see renamed something stupid), but still. Pretty amazing. Regardless, don't give up the faith, Bird fans. Sure as the turning of the earth, something will come along to destroy their souls again. It always does.

by rockin redbird on Feb 29, 2008 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you, Cardinals fans
The universe being as upside down as it is these days, I don't run into many Cardinals fans who hate the Cubs or Cubs fans who hate the Cardinals as each should. Especially the new generation of Cubs fans, who have barely any concept of Cubs history. So it's a pleasure to read stuff like this, which reminds me of why Cardinals fans are -- how shall we say -- only slighty better than White Sox fans, which is hardly better at all.

And the Emily Dickinson was a nice touch. Glad to see you bring out the big guns when writing about the Cubs. Cubs fans, of course, quote Kierkegaard -- the philosopher, not the utility infielder.

Where is Vern Rapp when you need him?

by 3744 n sheffield on Feb 29, 2008 3:30 PM EST reply actions  

Haha
The Cubs fans don't quote Kierkegaard.  They're too busy not paying attention to the game.  : )
"Jimmy told me, 'If you keep it right there at two runs and no more, we'll win this game,'" Wainwright said. "'Me and Albert will get the job done."

by Andie203 on Feb 29, 2008 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Can most Cubs fans even pronounce his name?
Even just his first one. Even in the rare moments they are sober?

by DiscoJer on Feb 29, 2008 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Uniformly, I've seen lots of Cubs fans drop....
References to Kierkegaard when talking about their team. I've also seen the classiness and beauty of those "Cards fans take it in the Poo Holes" t-shirts. Nothing says philosophy like a bad pun involving the butt.

by matt reeder on Feb 29, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Cubs Fans, Kierkegaard, and Baseball
is a chapter in
Baseball and Philosphy
book.  It's all on Google book.

Didn't find it too insightful, but it is amusing.

by enoscountry on Feb 29, 2008 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

While few Cub fans
would understand Kierkegaard's ideas intellectually, they are born with an inherent knowledge of his concept of "fear and trembling."

by rockin redbird on Feb 29, 2008 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Cubbies
I will say that I USED to have this visceral hatred of the Flubs.  They were the object of all my malice for years.  

Nowadays, I have just developed sort of a disdainful indifference toward them.  I think hating them gives them some sort of legitimacy that the don't deserve in the baseball world.  I just don't feel like wasting the effort hating one of the worst franchises in all of professional sports.  

Do Lakers fans hate the Clippers?  Not really.  Do Clippers fans hate the Lakers?  Sure they do.  They are jealous.  I guess the Cubs are my Clippers and I am a Lakers fan.  Why bother?

I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Feb 29, 2008 3:41 PM EST reply actions  

Growing up in Des Moines, IA
I grew up a Cards fan because my grandpa and grandma are from St. Louis. My earliest Cardinals memories are of listening to Harry Caray broadcasts of Cardinal World Series games that my grandpa had on LP. My first big league game was at the astroturfed Busch Stadium watching my three favorite Cardinals: Ozzie Smither, Willie McGee, and Vince Coleman. I have had Cardinals pennants and posters on my walls my entire life.

That said, I grew up in Des Moines, the home to the Cubs' AAA affiliate: the Iowa Cubs (the "I-Cubs" as we Iowans refer to them). My first professional baseball game was an I-Cubs game. This, coupled with WGN, and a relative distance from the hotbed of the Cards/Cubs rivaly, I believe caused me not to grow up with a deep-seated hatred for the Cubs. It was neat to see guys who came through Des Moines make it to Chicago. Heck, it still is. (I buy tickets to every Memphis Redbirds series to see up-and-coming and AAAA Cardinals.)

My dislike for the Astros runs very deep. I think being in college from 2000 through 2004, which allowed to watch nearly every Cardinals game, helped this hatred evolve. The Cubs were never much of a threat, but we were battling the 'Stros year in and year out. The Astros doing poorly or making stupid personnel moves still makes me happier than when the Cubs do such things.

That said, my dislike for the Cubs has grown in recent years. My bitter Cub fan friends send venomous, unprovoked emails to me attacking the Cardinals and it has lit a fire in me that is growing. Maybe it will grow into a greater dislike than I currently feel toward the Astros.

by bgh on Feb 29, 2008 4:40 PM EST reply actions  

Well, you all make me feel like something is
wrong with me.  I've been a Cardinal fan all of my life, but I don't hate the Cubs.  I want The Cardinals to win, but I don't hate the Cubs or their fans if they happen to win.  I do enjoy baseball, a lot, and I appreciate and notice players on other teams who do well.  I happen to love watching Zambrano-he clearly enjoys what he's doing-and he is a very good pitcher.  I also notice that Aramis Ramirez is a great hitter, but he also has worked hard to be a good defensive third baseman-he didn't used to be one.  

I always root for the Cardinals to win.  But if they don't, I don't really care if its the Cubs or any other club.  

As far as your saying that Zambrano and Oswalt are the best pitchers in the NL Central with Carpenter being out, I think you forgot to add Mr. Aaron Harang of the Reds to that list.  He is just as good as those two IMO.  

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Feb 29, 2008 6:15 PM EST reply actions  

I agree ... sort of.
I don't "hate" the Cubs.  Rather, I pity them.  My feelings about them are much as I might have for a badly neglected, abused, half-starved, disease-ridden dog whose bestial, sub-human owner has done gross and awful things to it.  You'd pity such an animal if it wandered into your yard and collapsed, wouldn't you?

And then take it to the pound to be euthanized.

by StanTheManFan on Feb 29, 2008 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

WHOA!!!!
BEATDOWN ALERT! That is my favorite post of the year Stan that was a privilege to read LOL...

by Calhoun on Feb 29, 2008 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

My 2 cents on the Cubs
Seems as if the Baseball Gods have been especially cruel the last few years to Cubs Nation.  Let's See

2004 Red Sox Win Championship (Red Sox were the only team who could understand what the Cubs were going through, the didn't have to carry the burden of ineptitude alone)

2005 White Sox Win (Cross town rivals)

2006 Cards Win (Your most heated rivals)

2007 Red Sox again (Just to prove the first time was not a fluke)

2008 ??? (But the Baseball Gods obviously have a plan, and I'm sure 100 years has something to do with it)

2009 ??? Might be the Cubs year, they couldn't get any lower, and the Gods wouldn't have anything else to prove. (Unless they want to go for 200 years or the Cards Win again, I'm hoping for #2)

by DisplacedCardsFan on Feb 29, 2008 9:23 PM EST reply actions  

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