Saturday Morning Coming Down
Last night, my girlfriend and I were watching Spider Man 3. I've seen it a couple of times before, but this time, I was suddenly struck by something. When Peter Parker is under the control of the alien symbiote, and he's wearing his hair down toward his eyes, rather than combed back in typically wholesome alter ego fashion, Tobey Maguire looks freakishly like Conor Oberst of Bright Eyes. I don't have any point to this, and if that name doesn't mean anything to you, don't worry, you're not missing some really great story. However, I lack the necessary faculties to regulate the things I say, so this is what you get.
Morning, everyone. I'm going to be taking over Saturday posting duties. Lboros could use the extra day off, being a family man and all, and I can literally just ramble endlessly. It's a match made in heaven! Thanks to Lb for the vote of confidence; I only hope it isn't the same kind of vote of confidence managers tend to get a week before they're fired.
Anyway, I wanted to continue on with the discussion topic format Lb has been using over the winter. I like it; it's a nice, casual feel for the weekend. During the season, I also want to do a quick minor league wrapup each Saturday. A review of each team's record for the previous week, along with any notable performances and a couple of players trending up or down. I don't want to step on Future Redbirds' toes here; they do a Daily Prospect Report during the season. I'm more interested in giving the long view, especially for any readers here who care about what's going on on the farm, but don't have the level of interest to follow on a detailed, day to day basis.
For the moment, though, there isn't much to cover, so we'll just move right on. A quick plug, though. If you're not reading Derrick Goold's Bird Land blog on a daily basis, you're missing the best camp coverage out there. Goold is quickly becoming the best thing about the P-D's sports department; he's very much the heir apparent to Rick Hummel as the preeminent baseball writer in this baseball town. Always great stuff.
Alright. Here's what I wanted to talk about today. With all of the recent revelations about steroids, with Clemens and Petitte and all these other players, many of them pitchers, being outed as users of performance enhancers, how have your feelings toward Mark McGwire changed? Have they changed at all? What about Barry Bonds? If you were angry at first, do you feel the same now? The problem was obviously much more widespread than many of us originally thought. Where do the sluggers of the era, specifically McGwire, stand in light of the prevalence of PEDs, across nearly all strata of the game?
I'll put my own thoughts after the jump. That way you can skip over it entirely if you like.
Two things I don't want, though.
One, do not question someone else's integrity or belief system simply because they don't see it the same way you do. Just because you think these guys are all apalling cheaters who should be drawn and quartered doesn't mean anyone who feels differently is condoning immorality, or that they're just generally bad people.
Two, I don't want to hear a bunch of bitching about how Congress shouldn't be worrying about this at all. The way that this particular committee is composed, there's plenty of reasons for them to look at this sort of issue. If you don't feel that the government should be poking their noses into this kind of stuff at all, that there are more important matters than this bullshit, that's fine. However, those are political opinions, and there are better forums to express them. This is a baseball forum, and that's the extent of the discussion here.
I only say this because this is an emotional, volatile issue for a lot of people. I don't want a whole lot of other nonsense making the discussion any nastier than necessary. All right then, onward and upward.
In the fall of 1998, I was newly graduated from high school, and moving out of my teenage years. That autumn, there was a girl I was seeing, who lived in an apartment building on Chippewa, just across from Ted Drewes'. I was going to school in the mornings, and working a late evening shift at a meat market where my mother got me on. Most days, before I went in to work, I would drive up to this girl's apartment and spend a few hours with her. On the way there, there was a bar and grill, (it's called the Brick now, but it was something else then; sadly, I can't recall the name) that had one of those boards with the movable letters out front. All that summer and fall, they tracked the Great Home Run Chase on that board, changing McGwire's and Sosa's totals as the season wore on. And that's really where I want to begin.
My teenage years were not particularly good ones for me. I made all the bad choices teenagers tend to make, plus enough to cover anyone who didn't make those mistakes. By the time I turned 18, I had lived through, at various times, drug addiction, sex addiction, weight problems, and a brief flirtation with bulimia. I had lost both of my two closest friends from those years; one in a car accident that nearly killed me as well, and one to a truly wasteful suicide that I've never quite made peace with. In 1998, I was coming out the end of the long tunnel of my teenage years, looking back at who I had been before through the wrong end of a telescope, that person far and wee, far and wee, as they say. I had no idea who I was supposed to be now; I certainly wasn't ever going to be who I had expected. And at this point, at the end of what felt like a completely different life, I found something surprising.
I found baseball.
Now don't get me wrong; this isn't where I first fell in love with the game. When I was a very young boy, my grandfather, a former minor league baseball player, had taught me all the minutiae of the game; had instilled in me a passion for, and a fascination with, the rhythym of the game that I never thought I would lose. I played the game, I watched the game, I followed the statistics in the paper every Sunday. I wanted, more than anything in the world, to one day stand on a major league baseball field and live out the dream.
As the years went on, though, and my own life spun out of control, I lost interest in basically everything. I played baseball into my high school sophomore year, but quit midway through the season. I put away the practice net that I had thrown into for three, maybe four hours a day, that my grandmother had bought for me to get away from everyday life. I threw away my glove. I even stopped following the Cardinals. I watched the playoff collapse of 1996, but I barely remember doing so. Life receded far back, and my childhood passion went with it.
My grandfather died on Halloween of 1997. I had barely spoken to him the previous year, and only went to see him once while he was in the hospital, receiving chemo for the cancer that finally killed him. The man with whom I had spent countless hours of my young life, poring over batting lines and breaking down pitchers' mechanics, was gone. He didn't live long enough to see me get fully healthy. He didn't live long enough to give me the chance to make amends.
And then it was 1998. Early in the year, my senior class went to a game at Busch. McGwire hit a home run, (he was in the high teens at the time, I believe) and the Cardinals won. More importantly, I found that I still felt the rhythym of the game. When my girlfriend at the time would ask a question about some small point, I always had the answer. I may have left the game, but somehow, the game had never left me. Over that summer, I watched the games sporadically, delighted to find that the fundamental rules applied, that no matter how things changed, they were still really the same.
As the year went on, and the Chase became a two man race toward history, I began to fall back into the game with the same passion that I had as a boy. Every day, even though I never could get a radio to pick up a Cardinal game in the market, and thus missed most of the games themselves, I followed McGwire and Sosa on that billboard, and in the paper. Every day, driving past that sign, I found that one thing in my life was just the same as it had ever been. Baseball was still a part of the fabric, the rhythym still woven into my soul. The man who had taught me the game was gone, but all those hours we had spent never seemed closer to me than they did that autumn, watching as the numbers climbed toward and then beyond 61, as the city around me celebrated their team. The city itself was coming back to the team after an absence; we were all rediscovering the game we loved together. Of all that I had lost, all I had forgotten, all that was just gone, baseball was still there, my one real connection left to who I was before the dark had begun to close in.
I wept the day that the season ended, with McGwire standing alone, the only man to ever reach the mountaintop of 70 home runs. I had found the game again, and was caught once more. All that baseball had meant to me had come back, and was overwhelmed with the simple gratitude one feels at meeting an old friend you had barely remembered losing, and finding that the years between had changed nothing.
When Mark McGwire sat before Congress and refused to discuss the past, I felt personally betrayed. I felt as if that golden autumn of 1998 had been a lie, that it didn't mean a goddamn thing, that I had been fooling myself. I was heartbroken the way only someone can be when they find out that something they've held dear for years was never what they thought it was.
Say for a second that you and one of your closest friends have both fallen for the same girl. One star crossed autumn evening, it finally happens between the two of you. The memory of that evening, though years ago, has never dulled, never become sepia and washed out. For you, that night has always been yesterday, and it always will be.
Ten years later. You and this beautiful woman have been married for years. Then, one day, through whatever circumstances you choose to invent, you discover that, in the weeks leading up to the two of you finally getting together, she had been sleeping with your best friend. It didn't go on after the two of you were together; she chose you. But still, things were not the way you thought they were back then. Suddenly, that perfect night, when she was yours for the first time, no longer looks the same to you at all. You feel betrayed, as if your whole world has just shifted subtly on its foundations. Was that the only lie she ever told you? Would they have been happier together? How could they have kept this from you?
At the same time, it doesn't really change you life all that much. You still love her, your life in the intervening years has been real, and a ten year old lie doesn't mean that much when measured against all that has gone since. You've been through all the ups and the downs, money problems, petty fights, and moments when you simply can't believe you could ever feel something this strong for another human being. You've struggled together to get pregnant, and cried together each month when it becomes clear it hasn't happened yet. You've been through a miscarriage, all the joy of thinking it will finally happen, only to see it unceremoniously lost, wondering if it was all for naught. And finally, after all the tears and the struggle, a baby. The culmination of your love, your life together. In the face of all that, what is one night, all those years ago? What does it really matter how it really happened? What matters is your life since, yet still it feels as if it has all changed, just a little bit. You can never again look back the way you could before. Now it's messy. It's complicated. It doesn't change the present, but the past is no longer the same.
As the years have gone on, and it's become clear that Mark McGwire wasn't the only player on the juice, not even close, my feelings have softened a bit. I still feel betrayed, but it doesn't change how I feel about the game. I love the game of baseball; I always have and I suspect I always will. I still think a little bit of my grandfather each time I watch a pitcher throw a ball and dissect his motion, I can still hear Jack Buck's voice in my mind, echoing out of my childhood. Cardinal baseball is still in my blood, and I still feel the rhythym of the game every night, April through September. Nothing has really changed.
But all those warm September nights. of almost ten years ago now, have changed. Those copper coloured memories of checking that billboard every day, and falling back in love with the game I had abandoned, are not the same for me now, and they never will be.
I've forgiven Mark McGwire. I still don't know if I could ever bring myself to vote him in to the Hall if I could, but I have forgiven him. My heart still breaks a little, though, each time I think back on September of 1998.
That's my story. How do you feel about McGwire? About the whole era? Have at it, folks.
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Mark's silence...
I can feel his sorry, being trated this way by a system which he gave a lot to, (almost) the same happened to an Italian cyclist (Marco Pantani), and he suicided.
The big difference between Mark and Bonds, IMHO, is that Mark did this anyway for fun and the love of the game, while Bonds did this for personal accomplisment, with malice.
All of the above is my personal feeling, I ask pardon in advance if, being not an US citizen, I may have misinterpreted some laws.
GO CARDS!!!
No.
"This is not fair, a man's behaviour must be "judged" under his era's rules."
A man's behavior should be judged by the ethical and moral principles of society, religion, or other society. While rules change, ethics and morals change slower...a minor point, but by your statement, slavery would be ok, because in 1800, those were the rules.
Gaining an edge through means that were illegal to the general public, even if they were not against the rules of baseball is ethically wrong - and it's illegal for ballplayers, just as it is for everyday civilians.
but do you consider
100 years from now we might look back at this era and mock players who didn't do steroids- or we might look at pitchers who got franken-arms installed and strike their post-surgery records from the books because they "cheated". Either way, I'll hopefully be rooting for Chris Carpenter in July, just like I was rooting for McGwire.
I do not consider
Now, when someone like McGwire doesn't have the personal courage to either defend himself or to admit usage, why do people still look up to and respect him?
I can respect Giambi for admitting it. I can respect Pettite for admitting it, and Clemens to some degree for denying it. I can't respect McGwire for doing neither.
ah, but
Since one of the foundations of our country's government is the right not to self-incriminate, I cannot hold his failure to do that against the man.
no immunity
I respectfully disagree
Coming back to McGwire, the way I see it is that, according to that time's rules, he is no more punishable than someone driving DUI or beating his wife, because he did break no baseball rules but only general public rules. If what he did was having an effect on his game, this is where the "everyone was ok with that" part of my argument comes in: MLB & the player association knew about that (Selig implicitly admitted for his part), and they did not speak or change the rules, so you cannot punish him for what was accepted.
GO CARDS!!!
Great story,
by jfs on Feb 23, 2008 9:19 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
The unsigned extension
I think this
Go to Steroids and baseball.com and refute his data.
The Ball is juiced not the players.
My take on the steroid era
Mac, Bonds, Clemens et al aside, let's not forget the real culprits in this mess - Major League Baseball and the players union - or more specifically - Selig and Fehr.
Steroids and PEDs come into various forms - needle-pill-cream, heavy usage or one time mistake, legal at the time or illegal, 5 year ago or yesterday, he said she said, proven or not, etc, etc. But one over-riding truth cannot be escaped - MLB and the players union knew for a very long time, perhaps from the beginning, that there was a problem and they chose, in the name of profit, to look away.
Watching Selig and Fehr attempt to now speak with credibility turns my stomach. These two guys wagging their finger is like an indifferent father who ignored lying in his home for ten years now deciding to lecture his teenagers on integrity.
The first step in the right direction would be to fire the two shameful men - Selig and Fehr - who were at the helm watching this mess unfold from their luxury boxes. They should also be banned from MLB activities just like Pete Rose. They were the closest thing we had to someone in charge of the national treasure known as MLB and they blew it - big time.
So fire them, bring in new leadership, accept that scrambled eggs cannot be unscrambled and move forward with integrity. Or as another VEB poster notes - "Bury the dead, feed the survivors and rebuild the city".
And now we offer an altar call, pass the collectin plate and have a closing prayer. Amen
voting
oh yeah
unfortunately, they are merely well-paid appointed front men doing the bidding of wealthy interests........so, on they go
Hinkster
one other point
I moved to the Bay Area in 1987...
fingers
I think the fact
That specter hanging over your head would shut anyone up awfully fast, no matter how "honest" they were.
Anyway I think anyone in the BBWAA who uses his failure to talk about drug use as an excuse to not vote him into the HOF should have his vote taken away.
Bonds/Mac
On the surface, one could argue that 'roiding helped both of these guys in one way or another. However, there is some much ambiguity in what they took, if they took anything, when they started, when they stopped, blahblahblah, that it is impossible for any truly rational person to assign a cutoff point and say "Everything that happens after this point did not happen." So, we're forced to simply take their careers for what they were and go from there.
With that in mind, both of them are first-ballot HOF-type players. The fact that Mac has been scapegoated the way he has is unfair, given the motley crew of drunkards, wife-beaters, womanizers, bigots, and maybe-murderers that make up the Hall of Fame. To compound things, these same writers were drooling all over Mac without even bothering to talk about his Andro use, his freakishly-veined physique, etc., and now are blaming him for everything up to and including the widespread hatred of beautiful rainbows by babies in the state of Minnesota. I wouldn't be shocked if Bonds gets the same treatment when he becomes eligible. And the day that one of the ten best baseball players EVER doesn't get into the HOF is the day that institution is no longer useful to me.
by redbirdnation8206 on Feb 23, 2008 11:47 AM EST reply actions
+1
However, the fact of the matter is that the Hall of Fame has never been anything to take too seriously. There are plenty of marginal guys on the inside and deserving guys on the outside, because the voters have been swayed by PR campaigns (positive, negative, or lack thereof) for as long as there has been a Hall. It's by no means purely a recent phenomenon.
As for shattered dreams, etc.: Sadness, yes; outrage, no. If I could find ANYTHING in public life that I was convinced was entirely, 100% on the level, I'd be more inclined to feel outrage about steroid-tainted records. Anybody want to point out something that I've missed? Because I don't see it. The sadness is only because it would be really nice to believe that this sport we love is above all that. It doesn't take PED revelations for me to know that that belief is unrealistic.
by StanTheManFan on Feb 23, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
Big Mac vs. Spider Man 3
by Handsome B Wonderful on Feb 23, 2008 12:04 PM EST reply actions
nah
Wha?!?
Did you not see most of the truly godawful Batman sequels from the 90s? Ugh. WAY worse.
I'm not a fan of Spiderman 3 either, by the way, but I just thought it was "pretty weak," rather than being THAT bad.
As for the whole PED issue, the whole thing is just very SAD to me. It's an impossible, sordid mess now thanks to Selig and Fehr, and (much like Spiderman 3) the whole issue is just so very disappointing.
I just don't care.
Baseball should remove the records, because they are like trying to compare apples to oragnes; let the Hall of Fame figure it out on its own, because it is an institution that is full of people who don't desrve to be there anyway; continue to enforce the drug policy as is; and never comment on it again, because everyone is guilty by association.
I have a similar story...
But in the summer of 98 my Grandpa, the most important person in my life, my idol, was dying of cancer.
Throughout this terminal disease my parents, in order to protect me, continued to give me a more positive prognosis then what was actually happening, so every time something bad happened that I had to hear about, it was a continual crushing blow that I wasn't ready for.
BUT, in the summer of 98, the Cardinals had McGwire. Their first truly great power hitter of my lifetime. Jack Clark was wonderful, but I have faint memories of him that are more tied to baseball cards then anything else. I specifically remember Todd Zeile being the great white hope and thinking Greg Jefferies was one of the greatest players to ever live--but most importantly considering the two of them to be power hitters.
So when McGwire arrived the summer before I was truly in awe. In fact I watched his first game as a Cardinal at my grandpas house before we knew he was sick. I remember the blinding flashes of the cameras, and the commentators constantly jabboring on about how great a baseball town St. Louis was and how the fans were the best in the game. It was the 1st time I'd ever heard this and I remember beaming with pride that I was one of those people.
I followed McGwire like a hawk in 1998, never caring if the Cardinals won or lost and I remember finding out years later that Lankford hit 31 homers and thinking that it was a mammoth total for a cardinal, but seemed so meaningless back then. All that mattered was that Mark was taking a historically weak team and dominating each pitcher, not with home runs, but with true moon shots that made his home runs better then any other players that just cleared the fence.
And I remember #62. We had a gathering to watch the game. It was against the CUBS. How great was that? And he smashed it so quickly the moment was over before you had time to know what was going on. I remember the celebration and talking to my grandpa on the phone afterward jabbering endlessly about my excitement, and I'm sure, talking about nothing else.
IT was, as all great stories go, the last time I'd ever talk to him.
And I felt cheated when he was up against congress also. I remember him not wanting to talk about the past and wishing I was on the panal so that I could tell him my story, and that all I wanted to hear was the truth so that I could make peace with my past. If he would have said no I would have believed him to the grave. If he would have said yes I could have grieved and recovered. But the limbo, the almost yes, but quotes like "consider the sourse" leaves this lingering doubt in my mind where I want to be leave that the Yin and Yang summer I had wasn't truly a lie. That the good that was there really can be some of the last great memories I had with my grandfather.
Instead to this day I have this little bit of doubt where I want to believe he didn't really cheat, even though every logical thinking part of my brain knows I'm wrong.
It doesn't matter to me what other players were cheating. It doesn't matter if it were only him, or if it was everyone. He cheated, and therefore no amount of names on a page will ever wane my disappointment.
It's good to hear someone else with a similar story. Baseball touches people more than the players will ever know.
Who is Mark McGwire?
But as ballplayer, I've pretty much forgotten him. And I am sure he doesn't care.
Bingo...
by cardschinmusic on Feb 24, 2008 9:17 AM EST up reply actions
I agree & disagree...
But whether or not this is a subject for Congress is absolutely an appropriate topic. It's a political issue that is at the heart of the steroids debate and hence an appropriate subject for a baseball forum.
I don't think you should try to close off a legitimate avenue of discussion. Clearly whether or not Congress should be hauling players up before its inquisitions is a part of this story. Ignoring it is like trying to talk about whether we should have a DH while ruling out talking about whether DH's should be in the HOF.
D.GOOCH
I agree & disagree
Disagreement: Major League Baseball has an anti-trust exemption. Judge after judge has admitted the anti-trust ruling is flawed other major sports have been denied this exemption. This is exactly the type of thing Congress should be investigating.
RB, very nice post today. I love your topics. I would not trade reading a single one of the
VEB bloggers for anything...Azru, HC, LB & RB I appreciate you greatly. Fantastic stuff.
One aspect that seems to have been lost from the group-blog effort is the projects. I really miss that. What happened to all the pitch data that was compiled? I know we got a little feedback, was that it? The other project type thing I really miss is the community projections. I know we did a couple, but don't seem to be doing them like previous years. Are we doing away with those except for the hard to predict players? I would love to see a team pythag projection based on the community projections to see if we are off by much. Are we as pessimistic about this team as BP?
I am not complaining. Please don't take this wrong. Seems like every blogger just does thier own thing, which is fine of course. Just some feedback.
Ray-
Are there any players you particularly want to see done? I know Pineiro, Molina, Ankiel, Clement, and a couple of others have been done; were there any players you really wanted to see? I'm not a huge numbers guy, so I don't usually go for those things, but I'm sure one of my more mathematical brethren would be happy to put up a thread on any players you were interested in.
As for team projections, if I remember correctly, we usually do those a little later in Spring Training, when everybody has a little better idea what the team is going to actually look like. As of right now, I think it would be tough to project, with so many open spots.
by the red baron on Feb 23, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
Anti-trust...
sigh.
Your suggestion as to what I should and should not do has been duly noted, D. GOOCH. I'll be sure to take your opinion into account next time.
by the red baron on Feb 23, 2008 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
Uh...
I don't recall making a suggestion as to what you should or should not do. I do recall objecting to you telling me what I should or should not say about McGwire & steroids. The difference being that I did so without the condescending tone. D.GOOCH
Congress
Here's why:
- Everything I've read says they're illegal to distribute, own, or use without a doctor's prescription.
- A large amount of money - billions of dollars - is spent on the industry of baseball. If there is something that could influence the flow of that money (that is spent by the taxpayer in return for the product on the field) then Congress should look into it.
4) Congress is part of a representative democracy. They should look into and investigate what is important to the American public when it is important in my opinion.
but hey - everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Keep up the good work, Gooch.
A response...
..."there's alot of money involved" isn't a good reason to "investigate" by Congress. Congress's power to investigate extends only so far as it is related to the legislative process (hence the 'anti-trust' excuse everytime baseball is called up...). There's no allegation that any kind of fraud or corporate corruption is going on in MLB. And even if that were the case, that falls within the purview of the Justice Department.
MLB is a private corporation. It no more requires a "check" or a "balance" than does Safeco.
The public opinion argument --- see above.
On your last point we can agree. Nothing wrong with disagreeing agreeably. D.GOOCH
D.GOOCH
Gooch,
Yes...
Yet cigarette smoking is legal. Alcohol consumption is legal (though drunk driviing, naturally, is not).
Note, I think we over-regulate our drug industry on the whole. I think HGH is a good example. We've yet to find any real and significant (i.e. detrimental) side-effects with HGH. Likewise, the benefits from it (other than an increase in lean muscle mass -- NOT strength) are largely unproven. Yet the government has banned doctors from prescribing it. Why? Good question.
A little less nanny-state, a little more free individuals making informed decisions on their own (and then taking responsibility for the consequences) is what I'd like to see. D.GOOCH
Feeling a little better
As far as the Hall goes, what kind of Hall of Fame do you have if the player with the most hits and the player with the most HR aren't in it? That just seems silly. Put them in with a paragraph explaining their circumstances. You can't set around and pretend these players never played game.
by vandelusky on Feb 23, 2008 1:22 PM EST reply actions
Bright Eyes is terrible...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Feb 23, 2008 1:32 PM EST reply actions
I'd rather not get into a debate about this
Fair enough...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Feb 23, 2008 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
I'm probably in a small minority here, but
One hypothetical question for all the people making a big deal out of all of this, what if Big Mac had just emphatically denied taking steroids at the hearing? He was retired. So unless the feds chose to make a perjury case out of it, he'd never have to deal with it again. At the time, Rafael Palmeiro earned a great deal of respect from denying any steroid use. Then Raffy went and failed a drug test.
Yes
As for HGH, there's little to no evidence it works as a PED (performance-enhancing drug). It's aid in recovering from injury, while a widespread belief about HGH effects, is unproven. It could be simply a very expensive placebo.
The fact of the matter is, ballplayers do alot of things to help them perform on the field. While steroids might provide an 'edge' it pales in comparision to the other things atheletes do to perform. And thus I'm not particularly worked up about it.
Mark McGwire used a variety of supplements to help him perform on the field. If he used steroids, then that was wrong as steroids are illegal. But they weren't banned in baseball at the time. Nor was andro. Nor was HGH. Was using a spit ball immoral before spit balls were ruled out-of-bounds? Mark McGwire doesn't owe me anything. I appreciate what he did as a Cardinal and I wish him well in his future endeavors. D.GOOCH
I used to be pissy regarding steroids...
O/T: Lidge Injures Knee on First Pitch of ST
by redbirdnation8206 on Feb 23, 2008 3:51 PM EST reply actions
Ambivilance
You know...
And he still hasn't answered the question. And he probably never will... It's a shame that in a game where kids on a sandlot somewhere emulate their heroes, that their heroes don't have integrity.
McGwire should come out and tell the truth, whatever it is. And then go back into seclusion in his gated community and play golf. His fans are older, the kids are at least in high school. They can handle the truth now, and truthfully, I think we'd be glad he did.
This whole topic is making me depressed. Can we talk about LaRussa's feud with Slaton from 590 KFNS? There's so much good material there for humor as they're both jokes.
Story about Edmonds at mlb.com
New Padres outfielder stronger after grueling offseason
It seems like he's said something like "I'm finally feeling healthy" for the past several off-seasons; I guess we'll see how true it is this time. In any case, it sure is strange to see him in the Padres uniform.
by BTown Birds fan on Feb 23, 2008 7:01 PM EST reply actions
Lovely,
It's going to be strange when he comes
I'm reading a lot of good points here about the
IMO: nearly every pro/college athlete knows someone or an entire group of people taking PEDs(by no means is this an understatement...especially in Football)..and this goes back at least 25 years . I feel like Bonds, McGwire and Clemens are scapegoats used towards a naive and ignorant public to cover the asses of owners and player reps. How long before their cover is completely blown? These guys are the "real" criminals if you want to blame someone. How many nobodys who never made it past AA baseball juiced? If they (the powers that be) really wanted to clean up sports, they would have a long time ago, but it's not cost effective. However, PEDs in no way guarantee winning. I remember a friend of mine who played college football at an unnamed div I school in the late 80's said that steroids were "mandatory". I believe this "enhanced" team averaged about 2 wins per year.
You could always take a different side to this...let's call it a "libertarian side"... and say PEDs are fine...take them if you want...reap its rewards and costs. You could say that Parents are responsible for role modeling their children, not athletes. Doing this would even out the playing field and take the hipocracy out of the situation. You would be ultimately left with the question of how dangerous are these substances used in "moderation"? Heck, the milk and meat we eat and drink now (if its not organic) is filled with antibiotics and growth hormones. (don't kid yourself...they are dangeous). Most of the pharmaceuticals available have very dangerous side-effects.
There may be a more logical and evolved way to look at this beyond judgement and name calling...but it sells media.
my feelings haven't changed about McGwire
Society and our culture in general seem to have lots of demands for appearance and performance enhancers,
minor things like hair coloring, hormones to feel and look more youthful, more serious enhancements
like boob jobs, tummy tucks, penile enlargements.
A big thing for ballplayers now is Lasik surgery to improve their vision, what would George Sisler's stats have been if he could have had eye surgery in the 1920's to correct his deteriorating vision?
Ballplayers have always looked for an edge, I believe its the nature of the game, with all the intake of nutritional supplements-hgh and steroids are an obvious next step.
How about Rolen's bad shoulder and he had numerous cortisone shots sometimes he responded pretty well
to those shots and I can see why, when I tore up my meniscus real bad I had a cortisone shot which helped me a lot to keep working until the surgery.
What's cortisone? It's a steroid.
If you ever go to the player panels at the SABR conventions the old time players all say pretty darn unanimously that if HGH and Steroids had been available in their day they would have tried to get some.
by bigchieftootiemontana on Feb 23, 2008 11:49 PM EST reply actions
The steroid/hgh problem makes me kind of mad at
You know they test high school athletes; they test NCAA atheletes, even Division II and III. That is directly tied to what has happened in pro sports. And it ain't all just baseball-football and hockey has it's own problems.
How would you feel if you were Hank Aaron? He is no longer the home run leader. Does anyone really believe that Mr. Bonds DIDNOT take steroids? How would you feel if you were Pedro Martinez or Randy Johnson? They certainly got cheated out of some recognition and glory while Mr. Clemens was pitching using peds.
And it makes me mad that the Cardinals have quite a few of these players. I hope everyone in MLB will take a good hard look at themselves-every time someone has a great season, a lot of us have an asterik in our mind. I know I do-and I don't want to.
Meet 'n' Greet
Crawling back from the strike of 94?
I've had a love for baseball since 1986, however it wasn't until 1989 when my parents and I moved to St. Louis that I really started getting into it and of course the Cardinals. I couldn't get enough of the Cardinals or baseball during this time of my young life. I was going out of my way to watch games. I loved playing the sport. I was also collecting tons and tons of baseball cards. There didn't seem to be anything that could stop my love for the game.
But sadly something did. That stupid baseball strike happened in 1994. With me, it nearly killed my love for the game. Words can't describe how angry I was at MLB during this time. I stopped watching the games, I stopped collecting the cards, and I even stopped playing the sport. That's how mad I was at what was going on during that time.
There was baseball games in 1995? Ha! Not from my point of view! The game was dead to me that year!
It had to take a playoff appearance by the Cards in 1996 to bring the game back to me in some form. But I really got back into it again when Big Mac started playing for the Cards. The HR chase was a huge thing for me as well.
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Now after seeing everything that has happened since, here are my thoughts.
How much was baseball struggling with fans in 1995, 1996 and 1997?
I know I certanly wasn't the only one that hated the sport after the strike. But I'm also very sure that the people that left after the strike may have come back because of the HR chase.
So my point of view on this is that maybe the players weren't only doing this to make themselves better, but also to bring fans back to the game, the same fans that still never forgave them for the strike. The players knew the risks involved in this, but the sport had to be saved somehow in their mind.
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In light of the Mitchell report, it's now hard for me to look at Big Mac and Barry Bonds in a bad light as I once did. However I'm certainly not fans of them either. I now see that their cases aren't issolated incodents as I thought they once were and that it appears the sport of baseball has been tarnished.
IMO no one that has been caught using steriods should have any business in the HOF. Now of course, I'm not talking about accedental use as I've heard that even some vitamins have to known to show up on this test as a PED. I'm talking about a player going out of his way to cheat the game.
How much of you know about the Black Sox scandal of 1919? It's the reason why guys like "shoeless" Joe Jackson never made the Hall of Fame. If a steriod user make the HOF then IMO Joe Jackson should be in there as well.
Just my thoughts. Sorry so long.
GoStLouis
by gostlouis on Feb 24, 2008 2:16 AM EST reply actions
The rules and who is talking?
Because I used a word you didnt approve of while discussing your beloved Billy Beane sometime back, you chastised. I guess the rules change depending on the might of the sword? Misuse or mispelling not that big a deal?
To tell you the truth, I dont care much about Mark McGwire anymore or dictionary mentality on a baseball forum!
"this is a baseball forum, and that's the extent of the discussion here." as you say.
What?
The only word in question was your use of the word 'supreme' to describe the importance of catcher defense. I argued that you were placing far too much emphasis on having an elite defensive catcher, at which point you took issue with my charcterization of your post, saying I was putting words in your mouth. Is that the exchange you were referring to? If so, I would like to point out, again, that I didn't attack you for your grammar or anything; there was a disagreement about the context.
If I'm confused, please enlighten me.
by the red baron on Feb 24, 2008 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
I think it'll be a good five years or so
As far as my feelings for him as a person that is much more complicated. He did something wrong, as we all have, and he hasn't owned up to it, as many of us wouldn't. Even more important to me is the fact that he did something really stupid, risking grotesque effects on his health in order to enhance his ego and pocket book. Having said that I still have always sensed that he is a pretty decent guy who did something stupid and wrong, in the context of an environment that encouraged it, and is paying a huge price. He was in a very tough spot in front of Congress. If he admitted he could have been prosecuted and would have been besieged for information about other people in the game. The union would have reviled him. Our punitive society doesn't do a good job of making it possible for people to admit their mistakes. The best thing about the Mitchell Report is that it did try to allow that. Mr. Clemens is paying the price for not taking advantage. I would really like to see Mark come out of exile, own up to his behavior and talk about the context in which he committed it. I think he might find, even at this point, that he'd receive forgiveness from most people.

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