Santana's deal--$137.5M, 6 years
Here's the link:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2008-02-01-mets-santana_N.htm
Obviously, even if the Cards had the prospects to land him, the team never would have coughed up this kinda coin over 6 years. This sort of deal is out of our league for anyone not named Pujols. How will other big market teams like the Cubs and Dodgers respond? I think they'll both push up payroll.
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51 comments
Comments
He took less money
by Hardcore Legend on Feb 2, 2008 1:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
clemens set the bar
Still, we could have signed him if we had been willing to make the trade. We only have $78M spent in '09 and 43M spent in '10, so there is plenty of flexibility in the out-years; we might have had to pay more at the end to make up for not being able to give him $20M next year, but we could have done it.
by SleepyCA on Feb 2, 2008 7:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would pay AT LEAST twice as much
by giveml on Feb 3, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is bullshit
by DJ4508 on Feb 2, 2008 1:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
well
by Bowen on Feb 2, 2008 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Prices won't drop
by Stanfan6 on Feb 2, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
already working
It appears that teams are finally realizing that terrible contracts (Kevin Brown, Mike Hampton, Barry Zito...) aren't the ones by which the market should be set. Those are the outliers and foolish/desperate GMs are signing them. Thankfully, Kyle Loshe has still not signed this offseason for his 4/40 and hopefully, he won't get it. Otherwise, my theory would get blown to bits.
by birdsonthebat on Feb 2, 2008 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Collusion
by Hardcore Legend on Feb 2, 2008 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that would be interesting
I think that a market correction or collusion are the two logical answers. Either everyone finally realized that the veterans simply aren't worth eight figures for multi-years (which would naturally make the players angry) or the owners don't want to pay it so nobody does. I'd say it's the former. Some else already mentioned how the Cards are finding comparable talent for significantly cheaper (Looper for Suppan, Pineiro for Morris, etc). Couple that with a league wide shift to young/cheap talent, and veterans just aren't getting their money.
Collusion is a definite possibility, but until I see the evidence, I'll stick with market correction theory.
by birdsonthebat on Feb 2, 2008 8:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong
by joker24 on Feb 2, 2008 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you're right
by birdsonthebat on Feb 2, 2008 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's totally irrelevant, it's greed in the end
by DJ4508 on Feb 2, 2008 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then
Players are paid according to what owners are willing to pay, and that's basically set by the owner's ability to turn a profit. Your worth in the market is whatever you can get. Arguing otherwise is just ignoring the way the world works. This isn't a fairy tale; it's a business.
If you have that much of a problem with it, find something else to follow.
by the red baron on Feb 3, 2008 8:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
reworded
by joker24 on Feb 2, 2008 5:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
feel free to insert
Why is it no one ever complains how much money Matt Damon got for the last Bourne movie? or how much Angelina Jolie gets for being in a movie?
by chuckb on Feb 2, 2008 6:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I've got a theory....
Just a guess.
by bobbyballgame1 on Feb 2, 2008 6:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
apples and oranges...
try taking a family of four to a Broadway show for $150 bucks. or, hell, try taking a family of four to a show at the Fox in St. Louis with a bunch of no-name actors in it. you can't do it. you can't even get a single Rolling Stones ticket for $150, and they are playing in stadia/arenas.
there's no injustice here. nobody owes anybody the right to see games for cheap. if you don't want to pay to see an MLB game in person, then go to high school/college/Frontier League games for cheap or nothing. or watch the games on television. if you want to see the premier league in the world, then be prepared to pay premium prices.
actually, if anything, tickets for major entertainment events are under-priced, not over-priced. if you don't believe me, then ask yourself why there are so many sell-outs. if the owners were profit-maximizers, then sell-outs would not be nearly as common as they are, because customers would be willing to pay significantly more at the margins than they are now (i'm over-simplifying, but the point remains the same).
economists are often puzzled by the fact that concerts/plays/sporting events are all generally under-priced.
by kindred on Feb 3, 2008 4:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow...
I never said anything about not wanting to pay to go to a baseball game. In fact, I go to about 15 a year.
I was answering the question above comparing movie stars to athletes.
I don't have a problem with anyone being paid what they are paid. If someone is willing to pay it, you are worth it. Pure and simple.
by bobbyballgame1 on Feb 4, 2008 12:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree.....
That statement is completely false. How can worth be determined simply monetarily(sp?)? So teachers, police officers, firefighters, etc., are worth that much less than a professional athlete, actors, or Oprah Winfrey!? Simply because they are paid only 30-40k/year? Your worth is determined by what you provide to society. The fore mentioned occupations have a direct effect on our everyday lives. An athlete provides entertainment and according to that statement, AROD is appox. one thousand times more valuable than a teacher.
The fact is, athletes are overpaid, is it going to change, no way. The owners aren't going to lower prices as long as people are paying them, the same for the players. It is a business. So I agree, with the statement, "if you don't like it, follow something else." However, it doesn't mean they are worth it.
(bobby I am replying to your post, but I realize that you are not the only one that has said it, so nothing personal)
by BleacherBum on Feb 5, 2008 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Once again,
by Valatan on Feb 5, 2008 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oprah.....
I completely agree that she is not really comparable to a professional athlete. Oprah signs her own paychecks, so to speak.
by BleacherBum on Feb 5, 2008 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
At no point did I say that you are worth whatever someone pays you. That is not a statement you will ever hear me make. Personal worth should not be determined solely by how much money a person makes.
What I said is you're worth whatever you can get. A person's market value, for whatever skill they can bring to the table, is determined by the market for that skill or talent. A player who makes $10 million dollars a year's services are worth $10 million dollars a year, because someone was willing to pay it. Basic free market capitalism.
Just because someone isn't willing to pay a school teacher millions of dollars a year has no bearing on what kind of a human being they are. However, since no one is willing to pay them those millions, their skills are not as valuable as those of a ballplayer, ergo, their market value is less. Whatever someone is willing to pay you do whatever it is you do is how much your services are worth. If people decide you aren't producing at a rate commensurate with the pay scale, then the worth of your services goes down, because you cannot receive the same price for them.
Very simple, supply and demand economics. It has nothing to do with what kind of a human being someone is. Not that complicated.
by the red baron on Feb 6, 2008 9:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you assume...
Not that complicated.
by BleacherBum on Feb 6, 2008 9:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You referenced
"follow something else", and
"your worth is whatever someone pays you",
both of which appeared in one of my posts above. I assumed you were talking about me because both of the statements you referred to were contained in something I wrote. Seems a pretty fair assumption to me.
by the red baron on Feb 6, 2008 10:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
also,
by the red baron on Feb 6, 2008 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Accepted...
by BleacherBum on Feb 6, 2008 11:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Retort...
"social worth"? seriously? well, how about this. there are only several hundred people in the world, out of 6 billion, who are capable of playing in the Major Leagues. of those few hundred, there are only a handful who are capable of commanding truly large salaries (the A-Rods and Santanas).
there are millions of school teachers in the world. in fact, teaching children is something that almost anyone can do, so long as they have something approaching average intelligence. in fact, if the student is capable enough, he will probably teach himself much more through self-study than a typical teacher would, at least when he gets past the very first years of his education (this is certainly true of me; i was "home-schooled," which means that i taught myself, until college, and i am currently pursuing a Ph.D. i learned much more on my own than most of school-attending friends ever got from their teachers, and many of them attended expensive private/prep schools).
that is not to disparage teachers: they are performing a service. but even the best teachers can only provide that service to a handful of people at a time. baseball players can provide their services to millions of people simultaneously, regardless of age or school district.
so baseball players "deserve" to be rewarded much more than teachers, since exponentially more people buy their services than do from a single, individual teacher.
now, in the aggregate, we spend much, much more on teachers than on baseball players. in 2003, public school teachers alone (K-12) made ~ $140bn. that represented about 1/3 of total public school funding. that number has surely gone up since then. in 2007, even after all the "salary inflation" we keep hearing about, MLB player salaries were $2.4bn.
but the real truth is this: what someone is "worth" -- their value -- can be measured by the market. in fact, that is the only way for such valuations to be made independently. otherwise, we're all just spouting individual opinions. in one sense, of course, we are all equally valuable. but in another real sense, we're not. my wife is "worth" much more to me than she is to you. Johan Santana is "worth" much more to the Mets than he is to the Cardinals.
and there is nothing at all wrong with that.
by kindred on Feb 6, 2008 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
excuse all the typos...
by kindred on Feb 6, 2008 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I've stayed away
"in fact, teaching children is something that almost anyone can do, so long as they have something approaching average intelligence."
It takes a special person to put up with what teachers do (low pay, oversized classes) to do the vital service of, in many cases, raising the youth of this country. Many could get mutch better paying jobs but make the sacrifice to help our collective society. I'm not saying all of them are the salt of the earth, there are some bad ones, but for the most part it's good people trying to do their best with limited resources.
I'm glad you were blessed with IQ to teach yourself but that's not the norm. Correct me if I'm wrong but I bet you had some great parents that taught you or a private tutor, unless you graded your own tests.
In case your wondering why this touched a nerve with me, my parents were both public school teachers with masters degrees.They both worked part time jobs in the evenings to have the money to raise three children. I saw and felt the sacrice first hand but it was worth it every time in my home town I would run into one of their former students and they would tell me how mutch one of my parents helped them, they always want to know how their doing and to tell them hello.
BTW the lowest paying school district in the state of Illinois when I was growing up wasn't in Chicago, It was East St. Louis.
by That's a Winner on Feb 7, 2008 9:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i wasn't picking on anyone specifically...
but there are 3.2 million members of the N.E.A., and that doesn't include private school teachers, or teachers past 12th grade. 3.2 million people is a lot of people.
there are 1,200 MLB players, including everybody on a team's 40-man roster. it is simply much, much harder to become a MLB player than it is to become a teacher, since the skill set required is so much greater. so MLB players are "worth" more.
now, teachers make more than Frontier League players and Legion players. those guys are good ballplayers, but are generally nowhere near as good as the MLB players, and they make little or nothing.
you may compare teachers to those guys, if you like, and teachers will come out ahead. but there is simply no comparison between the required skills for MLB players and teachers.
by kindred on Feb 7, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
don't forget
by giveml on Feb 3, 2008 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oprah's not comparable
If the money's gong to get distributed between the players and the owners, I'd just as soon see more of it go to the players than the owners--the players, after all, are the ones you're going to see.
I just wish more cities had followed the Green Bay model while the teams were still relatively cheap in terms of overall purchase price.
by Valatan on Feb 3, 2008 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He came to us with no credentials.
How do we know Steinbrenner is not A-Rod?
by liam on Feb 4, 2008 2:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Too nice to owners
Let's say everyone takes 1/10th of what they currently make, with a league minimum going to $100,000 instead of the current $400,000 or so.
So A-Rod makes 2.75M a year instead of 27.5M, Pujols makes about 1.4M or so. Now the owners are put in a situation where, if they could afford those contracts, obviously they're making HUGE amounts of money now. Do you think owners are going to drop those prime seats from $50 to even $20-30? The owners got to where they are because they're businessmen. Businessmen don't usually have the thought of "Well, maybe I give away money from my pocket in order to make things more affordable for the consumer." The only way ticket prices go down is if demand for tickets goes down.
If the economic system gets so messed up that the demand for tickets can't keep up with the rising costs, then like the NHL, the system will crumble and they'll reestablish the economic system in a more viable way. For now though, this system IS viable, and as long as people like us are willing to pay for tickets (and so far, while I think the system sucks, I bought party room tickets for a game this year), then the prices will continue to inflate more and more.
by mtalken on Feb 3, 2008 11:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The only way ticket prices go down is if demand..
by Valatan on Feb 3, 2008 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
IMO, the anti-trust exemption isn't very relevant
by Zubin on Feb 4, 2008 1:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
juvenile comment
beloved entertainment. The players have wisely bargained their way into a portion of this money. They are entitled.
You also have the right to go out and make as much cash as you can. If you've done it legally and you give the correct portion to uncle same, no one has the right to set limits that or reach into your pocket.
Not really sure what you're proposing by complaining about Santana's contract, but it wreaks of childish jealousy.
by _pistol_ on Feb 3, 2008 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At least they are paid on a performance basis...
Ticket prices will go up, forever, just like the price of any other market driven product will always go up. Only products that receive a large government subsidies hold stable prices for a long period of time (food, oil, natural gas). Why hasn't Jeffrey Loria dropped his ticket prices? Nobody shows up to watch that team play anyway, his payroll is next to nothing, and yet his ticket prices remain stable. Kansas City Royals tickets have gone up in the past 10 years, despite having one of the lowest payrolls in the league over that span. To say that flattening the salary structure will drive ticket prices down is ridiculous. Look at all the other major sports with salary cap restrictions -- NBA and NFL tickets are twice as expensive as they were in the 1980's -- very similar to baseball.
You want to talk about people not earning their keep? Then lets talk about CEO pay. At this point, to fire a CEO you have to pay them $40 million in "golden parachute" buyout funds just to GET RID OF THEM!!! The three largest brokerage firms on Wall Street just gave out bonuses to their executives numbering in the millions of dollars -- while the firms themselves were down nearly $12 billion total in the last year! Talk about a great incentive: "No matter how well you do we'll reward you with millions of dollars." Not to mention that most of these guys went to private schools and Ivy League colleges, so they all came from old money to start with, and are now making millions of dollars without proving they are truly worth any more than the lowly hourly worker on the house floor of their company. The market hasn't driven up their prices -- it's the obsession with lavishing high-profile executives with large money to draw investment that drives these companies to offer higher and higher packages. It would be cheaper and more effective for them to promote someone from within most of the time.
by fourstick on Feb 4, 2008 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's not strictly true...
oddly enough, my belief is that they are paid so much for much the same reason that athletes are: there aren't many guys who can successfully lead huge corporations, and the differences in ability between the best and next-best candidate might be relatively small, but those small differences can make a large difference at the profit margin.
by kindred on Feb 6, 2008 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bottom Line
by Ibeatanorexia06 on Feb 2, 2008 7:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
really?
it's not $4mn. it's 36$mn or so. are you seriously telling me that $36mn is not a big deal?
and honestly, given Santana's background, this isn't Bill Gates-type money. he'll pay half of it in taxes, and i'm sure that all of his extended family and friends are all fairly poor, considering he's from the Dominican Republic. he could spend a lot of that money very quickly just setting up his family and friends. also consider that his career will most likely be over by his 40th birthday, and he'll have to live off of this cash for the rest of his life.
it's a lot of money, to be sure. but it's not that much money, in the grand scheme of things. whoever owns the Mets will make more money every single year of Santana's contract than Santana, and the owner will never have to take the mound.
by kindred on Feb 3, 2008 4:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't envy anyone's paycheck
by cardzfan24 on Feb 3, 2008 1:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
amen
by _pistol_ on Feb 3, 2008 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Now, personally I don't see how a pitcher could be worth that much for that long considering the shelf life of them. I think that's a ballsy contract. If he gets 4+ Santana-like years and he leads them to a World Series it'd probably be worth it, and probably would be worth far more than that if they take New York away from the Yankees like in the 80s.
by rocKStark5 on Feb 3, 2008 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
they're going for this year...
plus, the new ballpark opening in '09, and a newish TV network. this contract isn't that outrageous for the Mets, even if Santana breaks down after a few years.
now, if the mutterings are true that Santana's arm nearly gave out at the end of last year and he is headed for a major surgery in the next year or two, then the contract might be really bad. but that hasn't happened yet.
by kindred on Feb 3, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Santana has not missed a start
This is a huge risk for the Mets to give such a long contract. I don't know if they'll get 7 years of the great Santana-but I bet they will get 2, 3, or 4. I cannot point to any fact to support that, it's just a gut feeling and that he's been durable in the past. But if I had to guess, I'd say his career will unfold like Pedro's. Meaning, when he's done he's done. But you'll get some great pitching from him until that happens. The Mets have the money to take this risk. I hope it works out only because I am such a huge fan of Santana's.
I do not for one minute begrudge Johan his big payday. He has a special talent, and he's worked hard to get to the top of the pile. You don't get there without hard work. Revenue flow dictates these contracts too. There will be enough excitement about him being with the Mets that I bet their season ticket sales increase.
And then I look at the Braves and Mike Hampton...... It's a crapshoot that's for sure.
by jillsinmo on Feb 3, 2008 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to add, that as bad (inefficient)
by Zubin on Feb 4, 2008 2:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the market isn't inefficient...
as for CEOs... you think companies just pull these guys off the street? of course not. CEOs have long track records of managerial success. usually, their track records are decades long. the companies who hire them know "how they performed" very well, and they make their CEO choices accordingly.
by kindred on Feb 6, 2008 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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