BP: When do the Cards trade Pujols?

by The Duke on Feb 12, 2008 4:35 AM EST Comment 54 comments

"A new front office faces the challenge of a team with one star and one burgeoning one, and little else around which to build. It could be a few years before the Cards contend again, which inspires the question: when does Albert Pujols become a piece to be moved?" This from BP yesterday.

Seems there has been precious little said on this board about the topic. Albert is a hero and they will retire his number at Busch but realistically isn't trading him now for an upgraded system make sense?

Declining production last year with MV3 a distant memory made Albert seem a bit more human
Chronically bad feet -- does anyone think this will ever get better. No, it will get worse.
Likely to miss half a season when his elbow finally goes.
Cards at least two-three years from being a serious contender.
Market is paying up for stars right now. Albert could bring 2-3 young major league players and a couple prospects or a bunch of prospects. Pujols for David Freese II in 5 years sounds unappetizing.
Reasonable contract for one of the top 5 in baseball.
Everyone says Albert is a good baserunner --but it seems to me he runs into a lot of outs. That's my personal pet peeve and certainly not a reason to trade him, just saying.
Josh Phelps -- need I say more.
Cash. Nice way for the owners to line their pockets (let's not forget, they aren't in this for altrusim).
Mo is exactly the kind of temporary GM who can make this trade. He'll disappear into obscurity with the epitaph -- "he traded Pujols". A big name GM could never do it.

Are Albert's best years behind him? I read on a recent thread where his lifetime numbers don't project out all that well.

I'm a win now guy and Albert is a winner, but if we really are going to rebuild shouldn't we go "all-in".

Thoughts?

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I wouldn't consider

a 100M budget team as "rebuilding". It seems to me that this is a word the organization don't want to hear, so to trade Pujols for rebuiding is not considered.

Me, I would not do it, I would instead let him rest more and undergo surgery if needed. I believe that Albert does not have anything really bad, so an off year should be enough to recover and keep on producing for at least 6-8 more years at a big level.

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Feb 12, 2008 5:02 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Not a chance

First lboros wants to trade Wainwright now BP wants us to trade Albert, crazy. Trading a star of Alberts caliber never seems to bring equal value. Just look at the Twins and Santana, they didn't even get the Mets best prospect for the best pitcher in the AL. Does anyone even remember what Texas got for A-Rod, I don't. Sure the Marlins got alot of good players for Cabrera but will any of them come close to the kind of player he is, doubtful but I guess there a chance.

Trading Albert, if he wants us to like JEd did, for David Freese II at the end of a HOF career after a few MVPs and maybe another WS title is Ok by me. Why so down on David Freese anyway, he could be a good player and hasn't even swung a bat for us yet.

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Feb 12, 2008 8:49 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Can't tell if you are joking

with the first line, but to be fair, lboros specifically said he was not advocating trading Wainer; he was just throwing it out there as an interesting discussion topic.

As far as the Santana deal goes, I think the consensus is that the Twins waited around too long and ended up shooting themselves in the foot -- the Yankees and BoSox had better offers on the table but the Twins tried to play them against each other trying to fleece one of the teams. I do agree with your general point though: unless you are guaranteed to get a couple future stars, it is very hard to get equal value for someone like Albert or A-Rod. But any time you trade a player away it is a gamble; the stakes are just higher with big time talent.

by Ray Lankford on Feb 12, 2008 9:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

if they could trade wainwright on terms

that would help the organization, i'd be in favor of it. why would any fan oppose a trade that would make the team better?

trading pujols ---- that's in a different category. wainwright is a valuable player, but he ain't no pujols.

i think BP's looking ahead to 2010, which isn't that far off (only 2 years). pujols will be entering his walk year, and BP thinks the cards will still be in rebuiding mode. maybe they will be, but even if that's the case i can't see them letting pujols walk --- especially if the current owners are still in place.

by lboros on Feb 12, 2008 10:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

A-Rod Trade

Texas received Soriano and Joaquin Arias for A-Rod. Obviously we all know about Soriano, and Arias was one of their top prospects at SS until he blew his shoulder out at the beginning of the season last year. Then Soriano went to the Nationals for Brad Wilkerson, Terrmel Sledge and Armando Galarraga.

So anyway, thats how that played out.

One other thing...never trade Albert!

"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe

by fatbellyjefferson on Feb 12, 2008 10:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Who is Josh Phelps?

n/t

by sdrone on Feb 12, 2008 9:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

The one...

... that will rock at 1st if Albert goes to the DL.

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Feb 12, 2008 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Faggeddabouddit...

unless you want to see an irate mob tear down Busch III brick by brick!

Fans don't buy tickets to watch the farm system; you build around Pujols, you don't deal him.

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Feb 12, 2008 10:05 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

AMEN!

You don't trade Pujols- he is the face of the franchise and should retire a Cardinal after he has shattered every significant MLB record...

When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say?

by RosevilleRedbird on Feb 12, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What would they...

...name the 5 game plan if he was traded?

And unfortunately you cannnot tear down Busch III brick by brick. It is made up of pre-fabricated concrete slabs bolted to the metal frame. It only looks like brick. I hear there is a sale on sledgehammers...

by swmrnbk on Feb 12, 2008 10:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

OK

Tear it down pre-fab concrete slab by pre-fab concrete slab.

Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Feb 12, 2008 10:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My opinion

I think a front office should consider every possible move. This is exactly the question they should ask themselves about every player. The market should be constantly evaluated.

IMO, the answer to the question lies in when the Cardinals think Albert will be less valuable to them than his future cost. There are many more considerations than the simple cost of on-field performance also. A player the likes of Pujols is worth a mint in marketing, mechandising, brings in tons of fans, sells season tickets, etc.

So, I don't think the time to trade Albert is anytime soon. I think there will come a time when extension is discussed. The Cardinals would be wise to do this sometime at the end of next year, IMO. Evaluate what direction Albert is headed. If Albert cannot agree to a reasonable contract early on...then move him while his years on his contract make him so valuable.

Teams would need to get involved in 3 ways to gather enough talent to make a trade of Pujols possible. I don't think any team that could afford Pujols would have enough in their farm to net him.

by RedbirdRay on Feb 12, 2008 10:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Albert Trade

We can trade him to Florida for Hanley Ramirez, Jeremy Hermida and two excellent pitching prospects.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Feb 12, 2008 10:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Dodger Trade

We could ask for, Andy Laroche, Matt Kemp, Hu, Elbert, and Kershaw.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Feb 12, 2008 10:51 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

You'd have to consider that, but...

I doubt it'd be offered. There are too many Tony Clarks, Mike Sweeneys, etc. to fill holes at first w/ out giving up a gaggle of prospects

by rrvwmr on Feb 12, 2008 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And

They'd probably try and make us take Juan Pierre...slip him in real quiet.

by Beware the Molinas on Feb 12, 2008 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Angel Trade

We could ask for Jared Weaver, that other pitching prospect they have, Brandon Wood, and Howie Kendrick.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Feb 12, 2008 10:53 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

robbery

it only makes sense to deal pujols if you are completely robbing the other team. calculate what you think is an even trade...then pick 4 more players...then dump adam kennedy and cesar izturis on them.

some people think it would be easier to rebuild by trading pujols. i think it would be easier to rebuild by keeping him.

by dmb60614 on Feb 12, 2008 10:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Yankee Trade

We would ask for Hughes/Chamberlin, Kennedy, Cabrera, Tabata, someone else

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Feb 12, 2008 11:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

it would be a very hard thing to do

st. louis is a baseball town, period.

The team can't trade the player that could possibly be the best ever to where the uniform. At least not at this stage in his career, he is only 28. Yes, he has had injuries, but as SuperSeve let him rest more. If the team is in the shitter, there won't be such a demand for him to play every inning of every game. FSN and other places have said he has a positive attitude about this "rebuilding". I think he realizes this is not new york or boston, where we can spend 170 million every year and win.

"Textbooks are Soviet propaganda" - Rev. Jerry Falwell

by elirock83 on Feb 12, 2008 11:06 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Postive Outlook,

untill he only wins something like 70 games over the next two years. If the rebuilding takes longer then two years I could see Albert wanting out. His biggest thing is that he wants to win (I don't blame him). He may want to go to a team that is always in the thick of it like New York or Boston. Who knows. I can see the argument for trading him, but I don't think it's worth it at this point.

Not a fan of Troy Glaus

by gibbyfan on Feb 12, 2008 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

the idea of albert

in boston red or yankee pinstripes makes my stomach churn.

by FutureMan on Feb 12, 2008 12:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

agree

He's the best baseball player at his position in the league, he'll be just 28, and he's under control for 4 more years at significantly less than market rate. You can't trade a guy like that; even if he has to take a year off, you wouldn't be able to replace him. The only way you do it is if you have Ryan Howard at AAA, or will get him in return, which we don't and won't.

Even if it made sense to do, I would have to go away from baseball for a while if this happened.

by SleepyCA on Feb 12, 2008 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Same here

I'd rather watch a hobbled 41 year old Albert Pujols missing doubles down the line than think about him playing somewhere/anywhere else.

What's to say the Cardinals don't approach him about an extension while time is still left on the contract?

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 12, 2008 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

thanks.....

Thanks for the level headedness over the last three posts in spite of all the daydreaming armchair GMs that surfaced naming the biggest team prospects right out of all the "Top 10" websites.

If we can't be good, can we at least be lucky?

by cardschinmusic on Feb 13, 2008 5:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Come on

The spirit of the diary involved an Albert trade, so we are throwing out some options. Have a little fun. No one is saying to get rid of Pujols. Thanks for restoring order.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Feb 13, 2008 8:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It is Albert Pujols....

If we were talking about trading a package for a lefty pitching prospect that could step in and throw real hard in the 3rd pitchers position, I'd be right there with you!!

As for El Hombre' I hope we can get him fixed up and build around him.

If we can't be good, can we at least be lucky?

by cardschinmusic on Feb 14, 2008 4:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Again, thanks for restoring order

If it wasn't for you, Mo would have traded Albert for peanuts.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Feb 14, 2008 10:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thx to all........

There are MANY posts here addressing your proposed "trades", count'em, heck no need to thank me! I especially like the one that includes city landmarks as well as most of the Top 10 prospects.

Albert the Elephant WAS traded for peanuts by Mo the trainer at the ST Lou Zoo when he became a problem, I didnt realize that was common knowledge however.

If we can't be good, can we at least be lucky?

by cardschinmusic on Feb 15, 2008 4:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Hot Stove season

Was there ever a "hot" stove and was it ever "burning"? A trade for AP might have qualified! The lukewarm stove has smoldered!

If we can't be good, can we at least be lucky?

by cardschinmusic on Feb 15, 2008 4:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hot Stove

Well there were those little deals for Johan Santana and Dan Haren. Maybe you missed those.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Feb 15, 2008 9:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And.....

The Miggy C/Dontrelle deal, the Nick Swisher trade, the Delmon Young for Garza deals, our very own Rolen for Glaus swap, the Miggy T trade and the Edgar Renteria deal all happened this hot stove season.

You also saw young players get reupped, guys like James Shields, Troy Tulowitski, Curtis Granderson, Robinson Cano, Dontrelle, etc. I am sure I'm forgetting a ton.

Plus, you have GMs giving young guys a chance to play, at least hopefully. Players like Evan Longoria, Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, Homer Bailey, Joba Chamberlin, Clay Bucholz, on and on, will get the opportunity to be big time contributors on teams that will or might contend.

Yeah, that's a burning hot stove. Glad to have you on board.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Feb 15, 2008 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ok...

Take Pujols out of the middle of the Cardinal lineup and it looks pretty darn depressing at that point. There is absolutely no way to get equal value for him in this market -- no way. You would have to get an all-star player in return as well as some top prospects.

In response to cardzfan24's prospective trades above:

Florida -- I'd ask for Hanley, Uggla, and their best two pitching prospects at the AA level or higher. Hermida just doesn't solve any problems and he hasn't lived up to his potential.

LA Dodgers -- That trade seems plausible, although they seem to have soured on Laroche and Hu is a good but not great player. That trade would seem to be nearly fair if Kershaw ends up being the stud he's been projected to be.

LA Angels -- There is no way that is enough. I'm not bullish on anyone in the Weaver family, and Jered's mechanics are terrible. Brandon Wood is the next Dallas McPherson, Kendrick is a solid player, and I'm guessing you mean Nick Adenhart as the pitching prospect. That deal isn't nearly as good as what the Dodgers would be offering.

NYY -- If they were going to trade him, I'd so much rather deal with Hank than anyone else because he'll overpay. You're trading them the best bat in the game, so I think you ask for Hughes, Chamberlain, Cano, Tabata and another prospect and see if he bites. I would hate to see Pujols in pinstripes, but for that kind of talent influx I'd say you almost have to make that deal. Hughes, Chamberlain, WW, and Carpy in the same rotation in 2009 -- that's just sick. Don't think that Hank couldn't be talked into this deal either -- he's just itching to put his stamp on the ballclub, the whiny little brat, he's stupid enough to pull the trigger.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Feb 12, 2008 12:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Sure

Those were just ideas I got off the top of my head. Very stream of conciousness. I like Albert alot and I think our rebuilding will be easier with him rather than without him....unless we get completely blown away.

As far as Hermida, yeah he's a good player. He put up a .900+ OPS in the second half last year. He's a good RF option. He would immediately become our best OF and only Rasmus would project to be better than him at some point.

That Dodger offer is my favorite.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Feb 12, 2008 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

totally

I was just reacting to what you put up there and the differences in each deal. I like the Dodger offer as well, but if we were truly going to deal him I think you have involve the Yankees in the talks, because of the reasons I mentioned above, but also because I think it drives the price up. If you don't wait too long, like the Twins with Santana, then having them involved might get you a better offer from another team.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Feb 12, 2008 9:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

NYY

After the Yanks missed out on Santana, he would give up the farm to land Pujols no matter what Cashman says. It would be a good trade for them too. Give them a shot to take down Boston during Boston's prime. Its the perfect OTT move by a new generation Steinbrenner.

by The Duke on Feb 12, 2008 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Only way it should be considered...

is if he is traded for cash that is used to produce a revival of No No Nanette.

Jimmy steps in to lead off the bottom half of the inning... with nobody on base... It could happen... just not tonight.

by Hollywood15 on Feb 12, 2008 12:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Could you imagine

if Pujols was traded to Boston?

Manny, Ortiz, and Pujols in the same lineup? ugh. And they have a few others that aren't gonna hurt either.

by JShell73 on Feb 12, 2008 12:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Pujols

No way should he get traded for a whole host of off the field reasons that many here have touched on.

But something else I want to pose to the community. How many believe he is actually 28? I know there were a lot of whispers when he came up that he may be older than listed, but haven't heard much about it since then. He's also never been traded or hit free agency where something like that would be revealed like it was for Soriano.

by fltfire on Feb 12, 2008 1:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

he went to Fort Osage High School

in independence, Missouri, for two years, and then to maple woods community college for a year, so it's extremely unlikely that he's lying about his age.

If he is lying, it means:

his family set it up from a very early age; given that he was raised by his grandmother, I'm skeptical
he wasted at least 3 years of his potential pro career playing high school/community college ball. Why would he do that?

Granted, none of us have seen his records and he could be lying, but he just doesn't fit the profile of guys like Marti, Hernandez or Soriano.

Anyway, I don't want to believe he is lying though, and so I won't. this is funny, though.

by SleepyCA on Feb 12, 2008 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That IS funny

Like the "quote" from Hector Ortiz.

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Feb 12, 2008 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

it has been highly scrutinized before

they looked at his records when he was in high school and cleared him. in fact, they granted him an extra year but he went to juco instead.

the cards looked at his records before signing him to his $100MM contract and said they were satisfied.

the government looked at his records when he became a citizen and were satisfied (this coming after 9/11 when all the other players were busted).

the reason these players lie is to sign a pro contract. there was less incentive for pujols to lie because he was subject to the draft.

and the final, non scientific reason why i dont worry too much about it...albert and i are the same age and have the same hair problem. he looks old. some people just do. i knew a kid in high school that would shave in the morning and have a five o'clock shadow by noon. i would have guessed he was at least 25 if i hadnt gone to kindergarten with him.

by dmb60614 on Feb 12, 2008 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

la russa

i honestly think that albert will want to be here as long as tony is here, win or lose - and as long as tony is here that is not likely to be a rebuilding mode. i've never seen a manager and player who seemed to fit together more than those two.

by moboiler on Feb 12, 2008 2:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Let's send Musial to Philadelphia for Ashburn!

Who they hell are you people, Frank Lane?

Even if we are awful for 10 years, Pujols should stay. I'd rather watch Pujols gut out 6 30 HR seasons than watch the organization turn into the Florida Marlins.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 12, 2008 2:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Not now, if ever

I posed this same question to my father a month ago and I think he nearly had a heart attack. It is interesting from a hypothetical standpoint, but as a practical matter, I think now would not be the time to trade him, if ever. He's still on the good side of 30 and his skills are the kind that age fairly well. Having Albert in the middle of the lineup gives the team credibility even while rebuilding.

by roarke on Feb 12, 2008 2:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Pujols

Has a no-trade clause, I believe. And, from what I hear, he loves playing in St. Louis. So, I doubt he's going anywhere because his family is in KC, which may be the only team he'd be willing to go to. I highly doubt that, too, given his strong desire to win. So he's not going anywhere, until LaRussa decides to piss off another star on this team. (Yes, I am a bit bitter about this).

Don't judge me!

by BigdJC on Feb 12, 2008 2:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

He loves playing here....

Until the last year of his contract and he can break the bank elsewhere because he knows Dewallet won't pay up. Bottom line, we need to trade Albert in the last year of his contract because letting him walk would enrage the city and it's fans.

I love his style as a fellow first basemen but there are some things that just have to be done. We will get a bounty for him when we trade him and first base isn't really a hard position to fill. You can always find someone to play the position, you gotta find guys who are good that play positions that are harder to find great players at, such as shortstop, and starting pitcher.

Filling First won't be nearly as hard, just find someone who can hit great and play him at first, it's not a hard position to play. Plus, we can get someone who doesn't scare me every time a play at first is made because it appears he takes his foot off the bag too soon.

Gotta love this youth movement! Aaron Miles and Josh Phelps are the future of this team!

by Ibeatanorexia06 on Feb 12, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Firstly, about DeWallet

with all the money that is now off the books and no long term comittments to anyone not named Carpenter, why on Earth couldn't DeWitt afford Albert Pujols?

I'd rather DeWitt let Pujols walk than to trade him. It's outrageous to think that people actually support this idea. If Pujols' walks, it is on him should a competitive offer be made, to leave the team, city, fanbase. If DeWitt trades Pujols, there will be pitchforks and torches gathering at Lake DeWitt.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 12, 2008 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

rapid decline

I think Albert is one who will decline more rapidly than most given his lack of speed and chronic foot and elbow issues. That decline might not start for five more years, but with the injuries it could happen sooner.

Look how quickly Rolen lost it (granted a much more serious injury - damn you choi). We may look back at this as Albert's peak.

Having said that, Albert in decline is still pretty good.

I'm a win now guy, but objectively, the team could seriously upgrade with what they could get for Albert. Everyone here thinks this team is out of it for min two more years. So, at that point he's 30 and coming to the end of a big contract with possibly flat to lesser numbers.

A team at the cusp might pay up big time for what he can bring them.

by The Duke on Feb 12, 2008 8:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My Ideas

-Trade him to NY for Joba, Hughes, Cano, ARod (w/ them eating his entire contract), their entire 2005-7 draft classes, and Monument Park

-Red Sox for Lester, Buchholz, Pedroia, Ellsbury, and the Freedom Trail

-Dodgers for LaRoche, Loney, Kemp, Kershaw, Martin, and 50,000,000 Dodger Dogs.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Feb 12, 2008 6:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

And!!

Theres a statue somewhere there in a harbor that would look good next to the Arch!

If we can't be good, can we at least be lucky?

by cardschinmusic on Feb 14, 2008 4:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sins of the Father?

Would Bill DeWitt actually be stupid enough to trade Albert Pujols at age 30? Couldn't he have learned from the failures of his father, who epically traded Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas?

Bill DeWitt Sr. went through a period in which he focused on the Reds farm system (which involved drafting Bench) but set the franchise back 5 years by trading 30 year old Frank Robinson to Baltimore.

I hope Junior has learned from these mistakes.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 12, 2008 8:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

From a new diary

By djizzle [Edit User]
Posted on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 09:51:04 PM CDT

I was thinking today, if the cardinals are in a rebuilding stage why not trade Albert(i love albert though still) and throw in chris carpenter and get a ton of young talent in return just like the marlins did. If we are in a rebuilding stage why not just get into a situation where we can fill our minor league system i know alberts a big big part of the orginization but even albert cant carry a whole team. also if we did get a trade going what kind of proposals do you think we would get from teams needing a first baseman and a starter like the yankees or the angels even though they have a descent rotation.

by azruavatar on Feb 12, 2008 11:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Won't happen...

because it would absolutely kill ticket sales. Alot like when the Blues traded Pronger. Their would be an absolute uproar in this city if Pujols was traded.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Feb 13, 2008 2:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs