Winter Meeting Notes
by DanUpBaby on Dec 9, 2008 9:30 AM EST
Email
PrintThe big baseball story, before we get into partisan matters: congrats to the late Joe Gordon, baseball's newest Hall of Famer. Flash is a good choice, and a great one if his defense really came as good as advertised.
His induction brings up an interesting issue—what happens if Chase Utley plays, with a reasonable decline phase, until he's 37 or so? If what we're seeing right now is his peak, he's been as good as or better than Gordon in the process, and while you have to give Flash war credit for the time he missed you also have to look a little cock-eyed at the big seasons he put up while the league was weak, in '41 and '42.
Utley's career numbers entering his age-30 season—he might end the year with 150+ home runs, close to 1000 hits—are going to look pretty weak, but the Hall of Fame peak is already in place. Hitting 30 has proven to be a rough spot for plenty of superstar and borderline-superstar second basemen—call it the Chuck Knoblauch line, if you want. But Utley doesn't necessarily have the most conventional 2B skillset.
Anyway, from the players on the list I'd've liked to see Deacon White and Bill Dahlen join the Hall with Gordon, but I'll take what I can get. My favorite proto-Cardinal, Bob Caruthers, would have been a nice choice too, but I don't see that ever happening; someday I'd like to do a nice, long Friday post about him.
The news that Trever Miller is only due $500k plus incentives was definitely welcome here at the hypothetical VEB compound. I know a lot of people are still hoping the Cardinals go after a name reliever, but the fact is that the Cardinals' homegrown bullpen corps is among their biggest payroll strengths, and as of now they're set to take great advantage of that fact—only Ryan Franklin will make more than a million bucks.
Since there's not a lot of cheap talent in the starting cupboard, which is both shallowly and underwhelmingly stocked with Mitch Boggs, WonderBrad, et al, and the Cardinals seem serious about filling another spot on the open market, that added payroll flexibility is both welcome and extremely important.
But it looks like the main storyline for the Cardinals during the meetings, having gotten shortstop out of the way just in time, will be whether or not they trade an outfielder. I'm going to have a hard time analyzing these moves and non-moves—any Ludwick deal will probably undervalue him, and any Ankiel deal will come hard up against my inability to be objective in the face of Ankiel's story, which I've followed obsessively for the past seven or eight years. A trade that lines up Ankiel, who plays the same position as Rasmus and is a free agent after 2009, and a young pitcher might work out really well for the Cardinals, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be happy about it.
Finally, MLBTR mentions that the Yankees are about to make an offer for Ben Sheets in the two years, $30 million range. The draft pick makes it tough, and the Cardinals' minimal flexibility in the rotation make it almost an impossibility, but I'd certainly rather they go for Sheets than break the bank on a Burnett deal or, as Matthew Leach insinuates at the Mothership, offer a multi-year deal to a closer. Once upon a time Sheets was considered a remarkably durable young pitcher, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if his next two years are largely free of the strange, haphazard injuries that have befallen him since that ridiculous 2004 season. (Seriously? 264 strikeouts against 32 walks?)
441 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
my guess
Mo might surprise us with a creative deal like those mentioned on today’s side-bar but barring such a development, here’s what I see him/them/us doing
1. Kennedy/Miles platoon at second….bye bye Flo
2. 1 or 2 year deal for back end rotation guy…..Wolf?
3. Another LOOGY signing……Rhodes/Ohman?
4. Izzy gets incentives contract to return, close and tutor
that’s it
ps – I hate it when my lap dog presses the post button before I am ready…as seen above
Unfortunately
I fear you’re right. Nobody is more loathsome of having the AK/Grit two-headed two-bag monster due to the redundancy in their skillsets, but I fear it’s highly likely. Miles can officially take over the mantle of Captain of the League of GLRS. Of course, James and Marcel project Grit to hit .280 ~ .290 this year and both have him at ~ .330 for OBP. James is more bullish on AK, projecting him to about the same as Grit, while Marcel forbodes an AK of 2007 vintage in the 2009 campaign. This is a roundabout way, I suppose, of saying that I’d prefer one or the other but not both on our 2009 VEB St. Louis Cardinal Roster Matrix©.
I really, really, really believe that Jason Isringhausen will rise from the dead and make over $3M throwing a ball from the rubber of MLB pitching mounds in 2009. I’m not advocating it, but I’m pretty sure it’s going to happen. LaDunc have made their beliefs known. The Cardinals do not have a closer, in their eyes, for the 2009 season. Young Pitcher simply won’t do.
If we got Ohman, wouldn’t everyone here be pretty happy? If we could get Sheets/Unit/Penny, but would have to settle for Rhodes, how would that make you feel this Yuletide Season?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Ben Sheets
If the org’s philosophy is to stay shorter rather than longer, doesn’t a 2 year deal for Sheets make a lot of sense? Especially if it’s in that range ($30M) because the front office could backload the deal and pay him $12M in 2009 and then $18 in 2010 when more money comes off the books (AK, Greene, Glaus, etc.).
That solves the pitching need while keeping payroll flexibility to sign another reliever or have room on the payroll at the trading deadline next year. Yes, the $18M next year would hurt, but with the increased payroll flexibility next year I think the team can manage it and still find help in the middle infield…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Sheets or The Unit
I know there’s a faction here that have been beating The Unit drum for a while and that the possibility of him landing in STL seems next-to-impossible, what with us not even being listed as suitors any longer, but don’t you have to put Sheets and The Unit at the top of our shopping list? The likelihood of a short-term commitment for either/or is enough to merit paying a bit more. Wouldn’t Sheets for 2 years or Unit for 1 year be worth an extra $2M or $3M in the near term? To me, it would be. (I might also toss Brad Penny in there but I’m completely and utterly ignorant as to his health.)
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
a 1 year deal for Randy Johnson makes the most sence
Trade Skip to Toronto for Scott Downs and use all of your remaining budget on Randy Johnson.
Then sip a Budweiser and enjoy 90 wins.
www.salukihoops.com
if you're going to make unrealistic trades with toronto,
why not go for Halladay?
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
because it's not unrealistic
Toronto is willing to trade a LHRP and needs and outfielder. Even if Skip for Downs 1 for 1 won’t work, it’s still a good starting point.
www.salukihoops.com
I'd rather get Sheets
no brainer to me… if he gets hurt, we got Boggs
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
I need us to get Sheets
My prophetic skills are looking crappy, I need the Cards to sign Sheets so I have a chance at being The Master
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
so you're in the running for having the most predictions?
awesome, hope we get Sheets
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
I would say...no!
I need Sheets to sign with the Cards so I will have at least one right
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Sheets.
I would think the prospect of not having to face Albert would motivate Sheets to sign w/ us.
"She was married when we first met, soon to be divorced. I helped her out of a jam I guess, but I used a little too much force." ~B. Dylan
Ankiel+ for B Ryan...
or Duncan+ for Scott Downs. The Jays have a load of LHRP and a need for LH hitting outfielders. Throw in Schu or a 3B or RHRP prospect and we could get something done. Ryan would be a great guy to have for a few years. Back of the bullpen would be scary good.
"Proven" LH hitting outfielders?
Lind and Snyder both have good potential (especially Snider) but have yet to prove themselves. Point taken however.
Do you think they would be interested in our OF depth at all? If they are serious about giving Lind and Snider a go and Rios is a mainstay, why would they bother. I really would like to get a hold on some of their LHRP.
Proven?
I think Lind and Snider are just as “proven” as Ankiel and Duncan right now, considering the latter have a pretty sordid injury history. Why would they trade for two players that they already have cost controlled for a number of years?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I'm not sure that we have anything they would want
I think they might trade a LHP for Freese, but it’s probably not going to be a good one. They need middle infield help, but we don’t have any of that. I don’t think that we can broker a deal with them that is going to help both teams. I would guess they’d be interested in Anderson, but I don’t know what they are looking like at that position in the minors.
I do not think they’d be interested in Ankiel or Duncan though, considering that Snider projects to be as good as either of those guys, and Lind has lit up AAA the last two and a half seasons, and posted good numbers with the Blue Jays last year.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
agreed about bluj's
bluebird watchers seem top think that 1B/DH/OF is thin, but all of the above names are LH hitters with potential. Overbay at 1B is not putting up AL East power numbers, but had seems to have the health and glove, and he’s LH too. It seems unlikely that they’d take Duncan over their current crew.
by baked mcbride on Dec 9, 2008 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
Greene's ZIPS projection
Not sure if anybody posted this yet but here is Greene’s ZIPS projection for Busch III:
ZiPS Projection – Khalil Greene (SS)
—————————————————————————————————————-
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB BA OBP SLG OPS+
—————————————————————————————————————-
2009 453 59 113 29 2 17 65 31 91 5 .249 .303 .435 92
—————————————————————————————————————-
I have a feeling he's going to be the most frustrating Cardinal batter I've ever seen
Not afraid to nitpick
While I agree with the frustrating part
He’s going to be no more frustrating for me to watch than Ankiel was at times last season, and 17 dingers from a St. Louis SS would be the most in a loooooooong time…
I’ll take his 92 OPS+ over what we had last year and projected to have next year before the deal.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Most ever
Renteria and Daryl Spencer have the most from a Cardinal SS with 16.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 9, 2008 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
Because we are
Swinging 35% out of the zone when he actually hits pretty well in the zone is going to be maddening. His in-zone profile is as good if not better than Troy Glaus……….except he swings at OOZ balls MORE THAN TWICE AS MUCH. I already want to use caps with him STOP SWINGING AT DOGSHIT PITCHES and I haven’t even seen him more than 10 ABs in my life.
Cardinals should strap him in the batters box of one of those super duper ‘throw any pitch’ pitching machines Hannibal Lecter style for the remainder of the off-season and make him call balls and strikes. Give him 2 million to do it and they could get 10 million more production!
Fun fact: his senior year at Clemson he hit .470 with a 46/22 BB/K ratio.
Not afraid to nitpick
But those 17 homers (while only striking out 91 times)
would sure look nice coming from a Cardinal shortstop, no? Although, I figure his GIDPs would skyrocket…..
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
does anyone have any facts
as to how accurate these projections are?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
"the ideal blend would be 5 parts PECOTA, 4 parts ZiPS, and 3 parts ESPN"
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
can we replace ESPN with B-R?
ESPN has east coast bias. ;-)
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 9, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
Some caveats
The test is being performed by the creator of PECOTA, is applied to just one year of baseball, and the conclusion you’re quoting (which also says “You could also add in 2 parts of Marcel without hurting yourself”) is from an unspecified and combined regression factoring both accuracy and unique data – correlation, errors, etc are above.
I would expect Google searches for multiple system terms (CHONE, Marcel, PECOTA, ZiPS…) to yield all sorts of post-analysis.
Good rebuttal article at http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/forecast_evaluations/
Keep repeating to yourself that Petco crushed his skillset and that's dragging down his projections
….at least that’s what I try to do
by JI on Dec 9, 2008 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
But Coors and Chase inflated them
so it’s moot.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 9, 2008 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Looking at 2008
I guess he struggled just as much at Chase Field as he did at Petco.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 9, 2008 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sure looking at 2008
you’d find he struggled just about everywhere.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
Well, I think it looks like this
Carrer at Petco .228/.292/.374/.666 (OPS is proof of the devil at PETCO)
Park adjusted Petco numbers: .256/.322/.442/.764
Career Petco + 2004-2008 at Chase and Coors: .245/.320/.417/.737
Park factors are from espn and were applied to each individual offensive category.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Second Base & Starting Pitching
While everyone has been conditioned to think that Kennedy is going to be the second base next year – don’t believe it for a second. Tony may not get the impact bat that he wants but I think he will get a second base that can contribute significantly to the offense. All of the smoke around Johnson indicates a strong interest on the Cards part to upgrade 2B. All of this latest talk about keeping Kennedy is just that “talk”.
Cards have an abundance of outfielders and Duncan and Schumaker are the odd men out. Ludwick, Rasmus, Ankiel will very good and Mather is an excellent 4th outfielder.
I like Sheets as well but I think he will be to expensive. I think they are looking for a back end type of starter.
Scott Downs
A Canadian friend of mine emailed this from the Toronto Sun:
The St. Louis Cardinals have an interest in Jays veteran left-handed reliever Scott Downs.
Scott Downs is a 32 year-old reliever for the Jays who is entering his Age 33 season. James/Marcel project his FIP to about 3.80 or 3.85 this year. His 2009 salary is $3.75M and it increases to $4M in 2010.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Trading anything of value...
for Scott Downs is bad business. He’s not as good as Affeldt and he’s 3 years older. For essentially the same price (250K over two years) we could have had Affeldt w/out giving up any prospects. No thanks.
we wouldn't have to give up any worthwhile prospects
we either ship them some of our outfield depth (see: ankiel, duncan, skippy), some grade C type prospects, or a combination of the two.
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2008 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
I'd rather
sign Ohman/Rhodes/Reyes (for less $ than Downs, I’d assume) and use the depth to trade for starting pitching or a MIF. Downs isn’t enough of an upgrade over the FAs to justify giving up anything.
Yes, we should have signed Affeldt
but we didn’t, so now we have took for a late inning lefty elsewhere.
Downs can pitch in the 8th or 9th inning depending on matchups and would be a good get for StL.
If the cards can unload an OF or 3b prospect for him then they should do it.
www.salukihoops.com
I agree
I liked Affeldt too but at this point Downs would certainly be one of the best affordable lefty options.
Milt Thompson FTW!
Almost
$4 million/year is not affordable – especially for a LOOGY. I don’t think Affeldt would have been worth $4 million/year to the Cards, simply because he would have been used as a LOOGY. Affeldt’s value goes beyond that – he can go multiple innings and even spot start if needed.
Atlanta
So all this time we thought we were shopping them an OF for 2b/ss help. And maybe we were at first, but is it safe to say that at this point, any deal with them is for a MR?
I’d like to see what the Yanks or Phillies would offer. I don’t think we should have to move an Ankiel or Luddy for a MR that doesn’t close. Nor do I particularly want to. Would I move Duncan or Skip in that deal? Sure. I just Ankiel/Luddy are good enough to command a bit more. Ian Kennedy for NYY still intrigues me. And if we could get Cano too, wow…..that would be nice.
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
Atlanta is interested in Ankiel
according to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, the Braves maybe be interested in trading Ankiel.
http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/stories/2008/12/08/braves_offer_burnett.html
I am curious about the possibility because we just sign Greene for the SS and Kennedy seems going no where with his salary. What else the Braves can provide besides the Kelly Johnson or Escobar?
They could provide a starter, a bullpen arm, or a top pitching prospect
Although they didn’t give up their top pitching prospect for Peavy, so I doubt they’d do it for Ankiel. From what I’ve seen, they aren’t offering crap for Rick right now, so I doubt a deal gets done in that arena.
I have an uncommon faith that Mo is not going to get fleeced in any trades this offseason.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
We went over this yesterday
Kelly Johnson is good value, their relievers are most certainly not.
Trading Ankiel for a reliever is a bad idea.
by JI on Dec 9, 2008 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
trading Ankiel + for Jurrjens though...
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
not going to happen -- the braves don't have the rotational depth.
that’s like saying we’d trade wainwright for a secondbaseman.
oh well
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Kelly Johnson is fair value when considering ...
I’d do Ankiel for Kelly Johnson. This is Ankiel’s last arbitration year. His agent is Boras. There is unlikely to be money in the budget to sign Ankiel to a big LT deal at the conclusion of this season. We have a stud CF waiting in the wings. We have a huge hole at 2B. Do this deal if it is indeed on the table. Ankiel will pull a JD Drew on Atlanta … one and done.
I'm with you.
My thinking, totally illogical and unscientific, I know, is that Ank is cursed. So many times in his career things have appeared to be sailing happily along, only to have the fickle finger of fate squash the momentum like a bug. He’s about due for another tragic setback.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2008 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
he just HAD a setback
courtesy of Ryan Franklin grooving a fastball and TLR not giving him time to recover from the injury he suffered trying to jump through the CF wall…
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
yup
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, really.
And what has possessed Cashman that he’s now making sane offers?
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
So I had this strange dream last night
where I woke up in the morning and my wife told me the Cardinals traded for some young pitcher with a weird name, like “Jair Jurrjens”. So I rushed to the computer and we had traded Glaus for him. I know this make no sense at all, but my subconscious has the luxury of not needing to take contracts and roster matrices into account. However, maybe it’s an omen that an unexpected move will occur soon? Probably not… blah. I still like Randy Johnson if we’re looking to add a starter. A tall and lanky trifecta of Carp, Waino, and the Unit would be fun times.
3 team deal - book it
Cardinals get:
Zach Grienke
Braves get:
Rick Ankiel
Royals get:
Jeff Francouer
Ok, maybe not but I’m just putting various rumors together for a deal I personally would like. :D
I like it
but it would be pretty dumb for the Royals. Of course, they did actually acquire Mike Jacobs, so I guess anything is possible.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Per the rumors
the Royals and Braves are already discussing Francouer and Grienke. Dumb for the Royals if you ask me.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 9, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
heck yeah
Fracouer was atrocious last year
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Francouer was atrocious [insert year here]
Okay, he wasn’t THAT bad in 2007. But the guy has a career 92 OPS+. He sucks offensively.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4792&position=OF#platediscipline
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1826&position=SS#platediscipline
Francoeur, Greene:
36.4 % vs 28.1 % swings out of the strike zone
81.1 % vs 67.8 % swings in the strike zone
58.6 % vs 49.3 % total swings
wow
that guy really really sucks
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
i don't think ATL would do it
you get Rick for one year for Francouer for multiple. I know jeff had a very rough 2008 but his upside is still there. Plus, I think STL and ATL would fight over the Greinke end.
by timmycardinals on Dec 9, 2008 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
why can't we cut the braves out of it
royals get ankiel
cardinals get grienke
i mean I nthought Ank was a better player than francouer
by bearcatcardfan on Dec 9, 2008 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
waaaaaaaayyyyyy
better
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Because it is 1 year of Ankiel
that doesn’t help the Royals.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 9, 2008 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
It's not whether he actually helps them
It’s whether they get starry-eyed when they 100+ RBIs in 06 and 07 and THINK he’s going to help them.
He’s a run producer, donchaknow.
because he isn't selfish
he swings away, trying to make something happen, instead of taking those useless walks.
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
not even Dayton Moore
and his seemingly BSI obsession with former Braves would do that deal, would he?
I would give Ank and Anderson and others for Greinke (yes, I have an unhealthy obsession with Greinke)
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
sheets for 30m?
why give burnett 50,60 or more for 4-5?
trading everyday players for middle relief just seems wrong to me? Or is this just becoming the current age of baseball?
"I've got this thing and it's [expletive] golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just not giving it up for [expletive] nothing. I'm not gonna do it." - Gov. Rob Blagojevich on Obama's Senate seat.
2/26 for Sheets from NYY
MLBTR says that will be there offer. Draft Pick aside, would we consider a 2/26 or 2/28 for Sheets? Vesting Option at 400 IP? Are we scared off by the Pick?
by timmycardinals on Dec 9, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
He was injured last year
arm injury. Scary stuff.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 9, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
that's true
and the medical staff here leaves a lil to be desired at times, but burnett/ big unit aren’t exactly pictures of health either
"I've got this thing and it's [expletive] golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just not giving it up for [expletive] nothing. I'm not gonna do it." - Gov. Rob Blagojevich on Obama's Senate seat.
If that's their offer the Cardinals should at least match it.
I don’t think you can be scared by giving up the pick if you can get a pitcher as good as Sheets is for less than market value.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Yeah, if he's willing to sign for two years, we'd be kind of crazy to not throw the money at him and see
if he can give us two years of value. If Carp comes back, we’d have the best rotation this side of the 1994 Braves. Or at least since the Big 3 A’s.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Yeah but they're the Cubs
Peavy would blow his arm out, Harden—-take a guess, Dempster would return to being bad where he belongs, Zambrano’s K-rate would catch up to him and Lilly would get run over by a hot dog stand and a 25 pound scalding hot pizza would burn his arm.
Not afraid to nitpick
lol
awesome
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
If none of those actually happened excpet the Lilly incident
I’d still be happy. But I still have the feeling I’m going to be coming home from work and there will be a report on the radio that some crazed sniper is sitting at a window in downtown Chicago picking random people off and it’ll turn out to be Lilly and had finally snapped.
I say take the psychopath down before he ends up hurting innocent civilians.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
by Tackle Box on Dec 9, 2008 7:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
heh
yes, take out Theodore Roosevelt “Ted” Lilly III before he gets you!
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
I'll bet Yadi
wishes that he had taken out Lily first. :)
by cardsgirl95 on Dec 9, 2008 9:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
they have had much better pitcher karma then us lately.
They appear to be reaping the rewards for dealing with Wood & Prior for so long.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
A couple of nuggets about Redbird Future in Goold's latest Hot Stove Report
We get an interesting sneak peak at organizational plans for the immediate and long-term future today from a very interesting article that addresses Brett Wallace, the logjam at 3B and some potential, widely-impacting scenarios involving this years Spring Training.
Wallace is a "possibility at Triple-A," general manager John Mozeliak said Monday
So where does that put us?
Mozeliak said third basemen Wallace, Allen Craig and David Freese could all see playing time at a variety of positions this spring training. Wallace and Craig will play some in the outfield because, as one official said, "you might find playing time in left field for Wallace and his bat."
Okay, so Wallace to the OF would definitely add to the logjam in the OF, but could alleviate 3B. We knew this was a possibility.
The Cardinals are not in the market for a backup third baseman or first baseman because they believe Freese — the Lafayette High grad and reigning organization player of the year, according to Baseball America — can handle both positions. Or that one of the other two will emerge.
My head is screaming at the possible scenarios. Does this mean Freese has the inside track at the MLB roster this year if he produces a decent Spring as the backup Corner IF spot? I know a few VEB community members that this would please. Then Craig and Wallace can play 3B at AAA and see which one fasttracks the best. See who can handle the OF and trade away from the surplus. Could any of these guys handle the two-bag? I personally doubt that, but i think it indicates to us that we are looking long-term and it’s immediate impact on 2009.
Is it March yet?
I would say...
If Freese makes the Opening Day roster then start with Craig at AAA and the Walrus at AA, I want Wallace getting as many 3B reps as possible. If both do well then maybe Wallace gets bumped to AAA mid-year and Craig becomes trade-bait.
The "bait" may be Wallace
at least that is whom everyone in Vegas is asking Mo about.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 9, 2008 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
But I don't want to trade him (small boy's voice)
Can’t we keep him…please?
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 9, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
i agree
keep him, he is going to be a great hitter by all accounts, and cheap for years.
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
why would anyone in vegas be asking him about
if he isn’t available until june at the earliest?
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
maybe
they were curious about more tradeable 3base assets
Please no....
Keep the guy who could be a superstar. Trade the late bloomers.
Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro
vindication!
Wallace and Craig will play some in the outfield because, as one official said, “you might find playing time in left field for Wallace and his bat.”
take that rude-ish guy from yesterday! :-P
;-)
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
he, if Canseco and Manny can find OF playing time
it isn’t out of the realm of possibility that Wallace could
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
being in left field
and being a left fielder are two very different things. Wallace has no business in the outfield. At all.
by azruavatar on Dec 9, 2008 8:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
rec'd
and +1 for added effect
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 8:25 PM EST up reply actions
no kidding....
people think Chris Duncan is bad, boy wait till they see a slower, shorter version with wayyyy less range.
where do you see him?
traded? or do you see freese traded? that’s the question. It’s easy to say he doesn’t fit in the outfield. where does he fit?
3rd base in ’10, Freese as a utility corner and bench, Craig gone or in AAA. IMO
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
There's no reason to rush Wallace.
The Cardinals have 3 players to split between the majors, 1B in AAA and 3B in AAA and putting Craig in the outfield some. Frankly, I think the Cardinals are going to hold onto Wallace until they are sure Pujols is sticking around. I’d expect the other two to be moved first.
+1
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 8:35 PM EST up reply actions
All the accounts I have
read regarding Wallace are that he actually runs okay for a big guy.
I've never read that.
The reports of his defense at third are that the balls he gets to he handles. He has solid glovework, a decent arm and good feel but minimal range. Minimal range in the outfield = Pat Burrell, Adam Dunn
His 3B scouting reports
remind me of a little bit fatter Terry Pendleton.
Which I’d easily take.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Dec 9, 2008 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
hey
I don’t have a problem with Pat Burrell or Adam Dunn at 500k/yr
I think the term
“fall down range” has been used to describe Wallace’s defensive skills. If he has fall down range at third, does anyone honestly think it’ll be appreciably better running down balls in the gap or the corner?
Unless the NL gets the DH
he has no chance starting here unless the unthinkable happens.
by JI on Dec 10, 2008 1:47 AM EST up reply actions
yuck
statement retracted.
he could actually be WORSE than Ducan?
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Dec 10, 2008 2:58 AM EST up reply actions
I've got no problem with him
taking some time in LF, as long as it’s in the same way Albert was a LFer. Just get his bat in there and move him where he fits (3B) when we can (’010).
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
Wallace and Craig will play some in the outfield because, as one official said, "you might find playing time in left field for Wallace and his bat."
I would say that on most teams they would rather move your current 3b to the OF and put Wallace at 3rd. No way should he be out there.
Meaning they may want to find a place for his bat, but it won’t be in left at the ML level. If we’re doing it it’s to keep his bat warm while giving Freese playing time at 3rd, not because he projects to handle the position.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
Kennedy as starting 2B next year
won’t bother me… especially since he’d be great batting 9th, sort of hide him in the lineup and let him suck up groundballs.
please get Sheets, sure it’s a huge gamble, but why the heck not, in light of recent events?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 1:51 PM EST reply actions
if he is the starter next year
you must change your avatar to him again.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
ok
maybe I will…
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
Hmmm....
Who do the Rays have that would interest the Cardinals?
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
starts with "son"?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
Starts with "Pri
and ends with “ce”
But, I’m feeling wishful (and slightly unrealistic) today…………….
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
I am not so picky
they could send us Davis or Hellickson too. Heck , I would be okay with BJ Upton too
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Well BJ Upton is my new favorite AL player.
That’s saying something. He had to beat out Joe Mauer for the honor.
He is the player teams dream their 1st round picks will grow up to be……
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
I like
Grady Sizemore
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 8:35 PM EST up reply actions
I love
lamp.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
Grady comes in at number 3.
Criminally overlooked. He’s one of the best all around players in either league.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Who don't they have
Another rumor floating around, via Scott Bauer, is JA Happ from the Phillies. That would be a coup. Madson I am not so hot on. I just can’t see trading Ankiel staright up for relief pitching unless it’s a top of the line closer. Ankiel straight up for a cost controlled starter (Sonnastine, Happ) would be great. We could even kick in our own relief prospect. Otherwise I’m for using Barton, Duncan, or Schu to acquire bullpen help.
Rays young starters...
Garza, Kazmir, Jackson, Sonnastine, Shields, Price, Niemann, Cummings, Davis. They got to deal someone, right? I would take any of these guys straight up for Ank, save Cummings. Let’s put a package together and come away with one of these guys and Zobrist or Iwamura to play 2B. Ankiel, Francisco Samuel and Anderson maybe? Oh to dream…
Mather/Ankiel for Sonnastine/Zobrist?
That would leave us with Skippy, Luddy, Rasmus, and Barton in the OF. Zobrist can also play OF.
Probably not realistic, but interesting, at least.
Luna signed Minor League deal with Dodgers
Always liked the guy…… Rule 5 guy that didn’t last long with the Cards. Hope Barton gets a decent shot.
so do I
Barton needs to play
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
where?
I know alot of people are all over the Barton bandwagon, but he’s probably 5 or 6 on the OF depth chart right now.
I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.
i'm fine with keeping him at aaa
and letting him come up if there’s an injury
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
agreed
AAA is exactly where he should be.
I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.
lighten up
he put up decent numbers in the majors… did he even play in the minors?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
you mean last year?
19 games, 73 at bats – 3 hr, 2 2b, 2 3b, 9bb, 23 k
.260/.349/.466/.815
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
so is that
BA/OBP/SLG/OPS?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
yes
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
Barton is essentially
a Skip Schumaker who doesn’t need to be platooned and is three years younger. I can understand not liking Barton if you don’t like Schumaker either.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
He's not as good defensively as Skip
but otherwise I completely agree…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I disagree....
Barton has a lot more potential than Skip.
First off, he walks a lot more. His OBP was 90 points higher than his BA, compared to Skips 57 (or 50 for career). If he could hit .300 in the majors, which I think is possible, he could have an OBP of close to .400 (which is his minor league average)
He’s bigger than Skip by about 5 inches, which should eventually translate into a lot more power.
Also at least by RZR, he’s the equal of Skip defensively.
I think he should be starting if they could move Ankiel. Even if he repeats what he did last year in the majors, it wouldn’t be any worse than what Encarnacion did in terms of OPS.
Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro
Barton doesn't play CF
While Skip Plays all three positions.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
but barton has dreads
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
those aren't dreads -- they're experimental NASA nano-rockets
that’s where he gets his speed. Silent running rockets.
I agree re: Barton having huge upside. I’m not sure I care so much about him not playing center, especially w/ rasmus in the order. I love the barton-rasmus-pujols-ludwick start to the lineup, which would create ridiculous on-base chances for albert and ryan.
skip is a great player, but I think the rationale for carrying him into 2009 is minimal.
"experimental NASA nano-rockets"
That. Is. Awesome.
if we're comparing their defense, though, it's important
I would assume that Skip’s time at CF is dragging his RZR down.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Barton is hard to predict
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
but we can all agree that even if he projects off of the ML depth chart and ends up in AAA that the time in AAA and constant at bats can do him no harm.
Between Barton, Skip and Jay we really have a bit of glut with 3 similar players. Sigh
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
the OF situation is baffling, but in a good way
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
that might unlock the mysteries of the universe!
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
I'll answer that question
after we trade away some outfielders
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
Plus Luna got us Belliard in a 1 for 1 trade
Belliard then helped the Cardinals to a World Series title
THANKS HECTOR LUNA!
www.salukihoops.com
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
by adiueordie on Dec 9, 2008 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec
on the +1.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
How would you feel?
If a team was willing to eat $6 MILLION dollars for you to play for another team? Would it maybe keep you from bitching about constantly being left of playoff rosters?
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
6 mil is good
But being paid 21.6 mil and told to “stay home” is better……different sport (Stephon Marbury) but the dollar figures for all this is just insane…… economy going into the toilet, real people losing jobs and homes…… just has to make you shake your head.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 9, 2008 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
off topic but interesting
I don’t want to get into the politics of this but I did find the last part interesting:
Beginning no later than November 2008 to the present, in Cook County, in the Northern District of Illinois,
defendants ROD R. BLAGOJEVICH and JOHN HARRIS, being agents of the State of Illinois, a State government
which during a one-year period, beginning January 1, 2008 and continuing to the present, received federal benefits
in excess of $10,000, corruptly solicited and demanded a thing of value, namely, the firing of certain Chicago
Tribune editorial members responsible for widely-circulated editorials critical of ROD R. BLAGOJEVICH,
intending to be influenced and rewarded in connection with business and transactions of the State of Illinois
involving a thing of value of $5,000 or more, namely, the provision of millions of dollars in financial assistance by
the State of Illinois, including through the Illinois Finance Authority, an agency of the State of Illinois, to the
Tribune Company involving the Wrigley Field baseball stadium; in violation of Title 18, United States Code,
Sections 666(a)(1)(B) and 2.
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
Yeah, apparently he was using help for Wrigley Field
as a bargaining chip to get members of the Tribune Editorial Board fired.
Classy guy he is.
I really have a feeling that MLB will have to buy the Cubs in March and then sell them on their own.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 9, 2008 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
Seems like they might have too
The above is from the official affidavit and is the 2nd charge.
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
key words there -- "solicited and demanded" and "intending to be influenced and rewarded"
nothing in the affidavit says that the Trib GOT the millions and clearly the trib editorial board has not been fired.
Not implying they did/were
But that company is failing fast, and they aren’t getting state support, it may be to the point where the Trib just has to sell the team to MLB and go from there.
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
Ok..... is this a "innocent until proven guilty" statement for the gov
or a standing up for the Tribune….. (which I think is what you’re saying)….. I haven’t read the story yet (In full), but I don’t find fault with the Tribune in this matter…. unless something else come out.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 9, 2008 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
standing up for the trib -- basically, the gov called up the trib and said
if you fire these guys, i can make big money happen for the stadium. I haven’t yet heard any evidence that the trib corporation even considered this.
Nor would they have.....
Cannot imagine the Gov being so full of himself to think that he could pull this off? But yet, he tried. Thank you Feds.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 9, 2008 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
Had to look it up
Proverb 16:18 “Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall”
nice quote tom s.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 9, 2008 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
go crazy...?
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Dec 10, 2008 3:00 AM EST up reply actions
well...
he was taped saying if he didn’t get top dollar for the senate seat he would appoint himself.
He also made comments saying he'd resurrect
his political career for a run at the presidency by 2016. Basically, this guy’s realm of reality is in outer space.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
It's been apparent that blago has no connection to reality for a while now.
He can’t even work with the corrupt members of his own party.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
who wants Obama's seat?
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
That's great!
Funny, innovative and sad, all at the same time.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 9, 2008 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, it's actually a creative way to try to raise money
to help pay back money he was extorting from a children’s hospital.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
the guy has been being watched for other reasons
for at least 3 years to continue being a dusch bag is just stupid when he new he was being watched
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
he also got reelected
while being watched.
Us Illinoisans like our politicians like Missourians like their teeth: Crooked and stained.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Dec 9, 2008 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually, there were no good options
Its not our fault our Democratic party is corrupt and our Republican party is now inept after Gov. Ryan was sent away for corruption (see a trend?) . He ran against Judy Barr Topinka. She was associated in the past with Ryan, so it came down to a crook and an associate of a crook.
Hell, I voted for the Green Party candidate simply because there was no one who deserved my vote.
But, in summary, its not the people. We’re basically held hostage by the political parties. A regular guy from Carbondale like Rich Whitney runs (green) and gets 10% of the vote.
I wish there was someone from either side worth a damn but there isn’t and there isn’t any on the horizon either.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
My Mom Is a big Aaron Schock fan
He ran against the mother of a friend (on the dem side) and an old friend of my grandma (from the green party), so I didn’t really want him to win this years congressional race, but he seems like an alright dude.
Just a name to keep an eye on w/ a hopefully bright future; 27 year old congressmen are hard to come by.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
Peoria kid right?
I hope someone in Illinois emerges. That’s where I used to live. I’m a rightie, but Ryan destroyed the republican party there. Illinois politics is depressing on both sides of the aisle, as Tackle Box comments illustrate.
It’s the perfect environment for a 3rd party to emerge. But the Chicago machine is overwhelming to overcome.
I still can’t believe this guy won the primary – either time really, but especially the 2nd. I thought most people saw what this guy was all about pretty early on in his first term.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 9, 2008 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
Yep
Peoria Richwoods HS ’99.
He was president of the school board just four years after graduating from high school.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
Shock was a jerk in college.
I voted for whitney.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
Did you get the Bag of Crap?
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
Remember
you once posted a pic of you and your wife here on VEB. I think it was pretty evident who wound up with the bag of crap.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
sounds like firing lawyers because they wouldn't do your bidding
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
This not the place to talk
about the Clinton admistration.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 9, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
OK
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
you could at least get your facts straight on that one
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Dec 9, 2008 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
I did, but chose to look at Clinton firing 93
as oppose to Pres. Bush firing 8. I was being flippant, I know. But again, this is not the place. No hard feelings I hope Cards Fan in Chitown?
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 9, 2008 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
nope
my OK was inspired by your OK in your name, if nothing else… I basically try to ignore politics, since I’m a crazy tin foil hat wearer
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
and oh yeah
I don’t like either party, so no offense taken :)
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
Cool
I understood your OK (I picked the wrong time to have “Caps Lock” on……. been a pain ever since)….. off we go to discuss more important things….. Like who the hell is going to play 2B…. oh yeah,,,,, Kennedy.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 9, 2008 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
The Met's Signed K-Rod to a 3 Yr/$37M contract
Seems awfully cheap compared to what I thought he was going to get. This should make closer’s quite a bit cheaper now. Think we could do Fuentes 2 yr/$18M
Stat Whore
I think he was pretty overrated to begin with
I’d still rather get a starter…
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
Wouldn't Fuentes want $25 mil (min.) for 2 years?
Doubt he would settle for 9 mil a year…… bad economy or not.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 9, 2008 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
If the Yankee's won't give you the contract you want
Than you will not get it.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Spending $9 M on Fuentes
would be a bad idea when we’ve got Motte and Perez making $430k each.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 9, 2008 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
and, as has been said before, using fuentes over Perez will net us how many wins?
and how many wins will starting johnson/o.perez/moyer/penney net us over boggs/thompson?
Has Mo given up on Perez?
I was under the assumption he was going to be our closer for years to come? So now we are going to try and get a closer for 2 years or more? Does the Cards have any long-term plan on what they are doing anymore?
All these rumors really goes against what I thought the team was trying to do for the next couple of years.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
Just a thought
I know Allen Craig played some SS and 2B back in college. I wonder if he’s capable of handling 2B at the major league level?
I don’t know much about his defensive prowess, but that’s an intriguing option to me, if it’s plausible.
Anybody can play 2b.
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
This meme needs to die
Can’t tell if people are joking or if they are an idiot
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2008 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe so, but I do know
that TLR thinks any 2nd baseman can play the OF. Craig in left!
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2008 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
And in the majors, incidentally
But I get your point.
I’m just saying, FanGraphs even has Craig listed as a SS still.
I can dream…
there's no reason not to test craig out at 2b at AAA this year though, given the glut of 3b.
not like Hoffpauir shows any sign of knocking on the ML door.
i’m not saying that it will necessarily work out, but it could hardly hurt.
Steve Phillips just said on ESPN News
That the Cards are “linked” with Brian Fuentes. Take that for what it’s worth. Phillips is in Vegas btw.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
I am a huge Fuentes fan
He is the guy I want the Cardinal’s to sign. I am just not sold on Perez.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2008 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
It just depends on the terms
If we could get him for 2Y$18M-$20M that wouldn’t be a terrible deal…I’d rather go after someone like Hoffman on a 1 year deal, but the team could do worse than having a dominant lefty who could close.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
is he really a closer though?
I think Perez will steal his job… except that TLR probably won’t let him
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
In an unrelated point
Steve Phillips is an idiot. I’m in Ohio, btw.
:D
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 9, 2008 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm in Louisville and I agree that Phillips is not dealing with a full deck.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
epic disaster
I cannot say strongly enough how vehemently opposed to signing a 33 year old type-A reliever I am. Lose a draft pick to replace Perez w/ a left-handed clone all the while paying him an extra $10 M per year to do it. Horrendous!
yep
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
I would pass on any reliever that is a type A automatically.
especially considering this year's crew
of relievers… not that impressive
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
OK
I was thinking we needed a closer after watching some pretty painful 9th innings last year, but I guess Fuentes would probably not be worth the money/pick based on what you guys are saying.
Still, can we really say that Fuentes and Perez are equivalent…or very close? Perez had 7 saves and 4 blown saves last year and watching him at the end just didn’t inspire a lot of confidence. Do we think he’s going to be significantly better this year?
Motte looked impressive, but I can’t remember if he threw anything besides the fastball.
whether we like it or not, it looks like it took a couple of steps closer to reality.
per the p-d site, cards reps have met w/ fuentes’ rep.
NO!
I’d rather see them re-sign Iffy on an incentive-laden deal than throw too much money at Fuentes.
Way to take one for the team
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2008 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
+1
What the heck are they doing trying to sign Fuentes?
he lost his job as closer like twice? (correct?)
he is going to cost around 10 Mil, for several years
we already act like we have no money
he would cost us our 1st round draft pick this year
arnt we supposed to be building by the draft and not spending money?
we have Perez who could probably do just as well
yeah, Fuentes is a LHP but we couldnt really use him as a loogy, and if he loses his job to Perez thats 10 mil for a LHRP thats crappy
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Dec 10, 2008 3:04 AM EST up reply actions
Just. Say. No. Mo.
Not worth it. I’ll say it again…marginal upgrade for not-so-marginal coin.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 9, 2008 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
looks like....
there might be a run on closers soon. krod possibly to the mets and wood to the indians presumptively….so, if the cardinals wanted to sign one (which I think they should not, but you never know) which one of the ones left would you go after? hoffman (old and does not have the same stuff obviously), izzy (gulp), todd jones…anyone else?
check out my blog: Redbird Ramblings
Mo, please go get Nick Punto!
waiting for the 2009 season to begin and colby rasmus to patrol centerfield!
Saito could be non-tendered by the Dodgers
You still have Fuentes out there as well.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Please let us get Saito.
He shuts them down and will probably only pitch 20-30 innings, leaving plenty of room for YP and Mutt to do work.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
Chad Cordero
Seems like he is right up the Cardinal’s alley being very cheap and very high risk
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2008 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
is he even going to pitch again?
Last I heard it wasn’t likely and if he did it wouldn’t happen until 2010
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I heard he will be ready by Spring Training 09
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2008 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
His expected recovery time, if he does it right,
is a year or longer. Just because he says he’ll be back for spring training doesn’t mean he knows his ass from his glenoid labrum.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
There was talk when the Greene trade..
happened that we could have gotten Iz for cheaper, thus negating the positives of Greene. However, it sure looks like that’s not going to be the case.
“2:34pm: Roch Kubatko believes the Orioles are down to Izturis for shorstop, and two years $6.5MM would get it done.” per MLBTR. (can we say… insane?)
When you figure in the cost of Edgar and Iz, Greene continues to look better and better, even if it’s a one year stop gap.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 4:29 PM EST reply actions
$3.25 M per year
isn’t that bad — maybe a little too much but 2 years is absurd. You could get him for 1 and resign him next year if you really wanted. There’s no reason to do a 2 year deal for Izturis.
Ryan Freel to the O's for Ramon Hernandez?
That rumor is floating around on mlbtraderumors right now. I’m not sure where Freel plays for the O’s except for second base and utility infield.
Could this mean that Brian Roberts may become available for prospects?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
O's were pitiful at SS last year
Mora is getting old at 3B as well so backup utility infielder spot is open. O’s really want to keep Roberts who is a fan and owner favorite.
here is a rumor of Cards trying to trade OF's for Pitching...
go To:
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.-Rogers Hornsby
Why aren't we trying to work out a deal with the Twins
They really need a 3Ber and Freese is cheap
Their was a 3 way deal talking about
Rays: Delmon Young
Twins: Garrett Atkins
Rockies: Sonnanstine
Freese has to be more valuable than Atkin’s who is starting to get expensive and horrible with the glove
Stat Whore
we have the pieces to work with the rays and twin in separate deals. screw the rockies, get crackin’ Mo
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
The Twins have a lot of money to spend
They were way under budget last year after dumping Johan and Torii. Plus, they’ll be opening the new stadium in 2010.
Anyway, I’m assuming you’re substituting the Cardinals into the Rockies spot in that deal. In that case, we’d be trading David Freese for Andy Sonnanstine. Ummm………. Not ever going to happen. And no, Freese is not more valuable than Atkins. Maybe to a rebuilding team, but the Twins are not rebuilding. They’re looking to contend next year and wouldn’t be trading Delmon Young for a AAA thirdbaseman who’s never played in the major leagues.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
Projections
ZIPS Projects Freese to be a .265/.321/.428/.749
Bill James Projects Atkins to be .297/.359.473/.832
That is for Atkins to be in CO also. Plus, Freese is a plus defender while Atkins is a horrible defender. Freese is controlled for 6 years vs 2 years for Atkins.
So I think you can argue that Freese is more valuable
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2008 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
and Atkins will make at least $5M this year
FWIW, Freese’s MLB equivelant last year was .264/.318/.446 (.764 OPS) w/19 HR in 463 PA, which translates to a 104 OPS+. Garrett Anderson’s career OPS+ is 108.
It’s a shame we didn’t bring Freese up in September, since a hot 2-3 weeks might have really boosted his trade value.
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
I still can't understand why
Freese and Barden didn’t get some ABs while we were pissing away the season with Kennedy and Lopez playing the outfield.
my best guess is we were looking at floppy, ryan, and kennedy
to see who had the best chance to land a utility role this season. Mo & TLR wanted to know if lopez had the stuff to play in the infield & outfield, and gave kennedy & ryan the same chance.
I guess if it convinced somebody it wasn’t worth it to have floppy back this spring, it might have been worth it.
Floppy yes, Kennedy (cuss word)
win, lose or draw, testing Lopez in the outfield may have made a bit of sense. But Adam Kennedy is either the starting second baseman or he is a near useless rosteree. NOT a ‘utility’ player; NOT a pinch-hitter; NOT a switch-hitter… I don’t even think he is a particularly great bunter.
I strongly agree with the point: decide on Kennedy for what he is… a near average, serviceable second baseman. Any time used to test if he could do anything else was a waste.
grumble
Barton’s OPS+ from B-R seemed low in comparison to Freese’s adjusted line, based on their similar raw stats, so I looked in to it. It appears that when B-R calculates OPS+ for NL players, the stats for pitchers are removed from the league average stats.
Grrr. I hate it when online statistics sources deviate from the standard formulas and don’t bother to say anywhere that they deviated from the standard formula.
Anyway, when that is added to my calculations, Freese’s MLE OPS+ in the NL becomes 98; he’d be 101 in the AL (both in neutral parks). Still probably close enough to what could be expected from Atkins to give him similar value on the trade market.
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
it's an artifact of the way MLE's are done
The MLE I started with (from www.minorleaguesplits.com) was an “ML equivelant” stat, not an “AL” or NL" stat. OPS+ just compares “raw stat” to “league average stat”. Because the average non-pitcher hitter in the NL had a higher OPS than the average hitter in the AL (.767 vs .756), for a given OPS, an AL player has a slight OPS+ advantage.
Obviously there is an false assumption built into the MLE calculation (that both leagues are equal).
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
They do declare it:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/bat_glossary.shtml
“…Compute the runs created for the league with pitchers removed…”
ah, yes
but it’s hidden in a glossary page, with no link from the data section. If we hadn’t gone looking for it, we never would have found it, unless we just randomly happened to be reading glossary pages to see if anything was different. If I hadn’t tried to do the calculation myself and realized that it was off by over 5 percent, and then tried to reverse engineer the formula to figure out why, I never would have known that they did that adjustment (which is a good idea).
If you look at the “special batting” section, there is a note: “* indicates the value is park adjusted (now all 3-year factors)”, with a link to how the park factors are calculated. You’d think a major change to the standard algorithm for calculating a stat like OPS+ would deserve a similar note and a link. Without it, the assumption has to be that the stat is calculated in the standard manner.
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
Boof Bonser
would look good in a cards uni. just sayin’
Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.
I like the Boof idea
great name. Not sure he really looks good in any uni, though.
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
by erik on Dec 9, 2008 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why in the hell would the Rays trade Sonnanstine for Delmon Young?
by JI on Dec 9, 2008 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
I've read somewhere on mlbtraderumors.com
that they have absolutely no interest in re-acquiring Young. Don’t ask me to link it. They’re having almost 100 updates a day and aren’t updating the team links during the Winter Matings so, in other words, I’m not digging for it. You’re just gonna have to take my word for it.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
Not MLBTR, but here’s the article they referenced most likely
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
Yup. Probably the link they used.
(and I really need to start using the abbreviation mlbtr…..)
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
Soooo
Has anyone else visited the “Winter Matings” yet? I sure think I want to go.
For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!
by miniboscorino on Dec 9, 2008 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
What site?
mlbtr?
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
Oh...Thanks!!!!
I was reading everything there as gospel. Now I know better!!!!!!! Much appreciated.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
Why would you even discuss the rumors there?
I could make rumors up at random post them here and you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference.
by JI on Dec 10, 2008 1:48 AM EST up reply actions
Except that they aggregate information that is being reported by
people on the ground at the meetings.
They may very well not know everything, but they do tend to break a few stories during the week, and generally they have some good information on the info that’s been flying around.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Exactly
that site doesn’t “make rumors up”. I thought that was common knowledge.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
Ha. Actually I did it on purpose
I heard a guy slip and say “GM Matings” last summer and thought it sounded rather appropriate. Actually, it’s probably more appropriate for the Winter portion being, as you pointed out, that it’s in Vegas and everything seems to happen in bars late at night.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
maybe the guy just had an accent?
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
No, it was on sports radio here in Chicago
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
well...
he probably still had an accent, but…
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
It was Fred Huebner
He doesn’t have an accent. He just got tongue-tied, screwed up and they make fun of him all the time about it.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
was away from my computer
for six hours to find 73 unread items. Curse you, winter meetings.
Other items that irritate me. Joe Strauss continues to be willfully ignorant and rag on the farm system.
If I here the phrase “low-hanging fruit”, I will punch someone.
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
chuck norris will do my bidding
i’m friends with his dad
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
you are confusing him
with Amaury Marti
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
Don't you have Amaury Marti at your disposal?
He’d do it for free while Chuck would definitely charge you something.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
I will punch someone in their "low-hanging fruit"
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2008 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There's no way you have any idea how tall FlimFlam is.
What if he’s a midget and you just offended him?
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
by Tackle Box on Dec 9, 2008 7:21 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Strauss
is annoying and smug. But Goold is awesome.
Everytime I see Bernie's pic
That’s the best picture you could take!
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2008 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
well, he is el diablo
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
brian fuentes
is the rumor de jour now. Thoughts?
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
Too many
Dollars that is, not thoughts.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 9, 2008 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
I'm just the opposite.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
by Tackle Box on Dec 9, 2008 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
nyet
I have watched and listened to many games which he closed – same effect on my heart rate as does izzy….
by cdb on Dec 9, 2008 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
Most closers would affect your heart rate
Very few closers do much better than what Izzy has done during his prime as a closer.
that pretty much sums it up
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
exactly
they didn’t to make a deal with the rox b/c they were asking too much. then we give them our 1st round pick. Fail.
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
I'm 90%...
against this move. The other 10% is not in favor of Fuentes but intrigued at what we could get by trading Motte or Perez.
If it’s beyond a 2 year deal, 100% opposed.
Mo told Bernie
that “Joe must be talking to some agents” RE: the Fuentes rumor, fwiw
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
i have to say it
Mownd
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
So, anyone know
Say in the outlandish scenario no one signs Fuentes (as no bottom half of the first round team should), at what point does that arbitration offer end and picks no longer get transferred?
They need to do away with comp picks. They can have the comp round, hell, they could give 2 Comp picks for a Type A and one for a B, but the giving up your first rounder just kills people. Surely the MLBPA is figuring that out too.
Not afraid to nitpick
Two words for Mr. Mo
RANDY
JOHNSON
His Marcels projection come out at 158 innings pitched with a k rate of 8 k/9. His James projection is much better. I figure he’ll pitch a fair number of innings and punch out a lot of guys when he does pitch. That sounds a whole butt-ton better than crossing your fingers on Carpenter being healthy and hoping that Joel Piniero pitches like someone other than himself. Waino, Johnson, Wellemeyer, Lohse and Carp/Pinata looks good to me!
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 9, 2008 6:21 PM EST reply actions
Oh, and what do you know:
Dave Cameron seems to agree.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 9, 2008 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
Ok fine, get Randy Johnson
What number is he going to wear?
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Dec 9, 2008 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
That should look pretty interesting on the back of his jersey.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Dec 9, 2008 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
are you avoiding or not getting what I was orginally alluding to?
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Dec 9, 2008 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
I think he got it....
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
Oh well
I thought the mention of a possible number controversy involving a sure HOFer and a beloved Cardinal icon would generate some opinions.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Dec 9, 2008 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
Reply:
I’ll bite. I’m going with 51. Willie McGee has been gone for quite some time, and Randy Johnson is uber-good.
I say these things, and you all must remember that McGee was my absolute favorite player from ‘82-his trade. He’s not good enough to have his number retired, so you might as well hand it out eventually.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 9, 2008 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
I, for one, would not attend a game in protest.
I mean, I’d be there physically, but me heart wouldn’t be in it.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
Arrrr.
Seein’ someone war the 51 who isn’t me Willie, would just be drivin’ me nuts.
Arrrr…..
Alxfritz is a pirate.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
I've had to watch
some other tall, goofy looking guy parade around in a better center fielder’s uniform number for the past three years. I’ll sew 51 on the back myself if it gets Randy Johnson in a Cardinals uniform.
MVPs:
McGee: 1
Lankford: 0.
Eat it, guy not born earlier enough to appreciate Willie McGee.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
+1
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
"earlier enough"?
And eat it, too, guy who can’t write good; read: me.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
Haha
The irony of this is just hilarious.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 9, 2008 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
heh
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
Also:
roster spots in RBI Baseball:
McGee: 1
Lankford: 0.
Clearly, McGee is the better player. Lankford has not mastered the art of walking in unison int he outfield sufficiently to have his number retired.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Nor could Lankford hit
the floating dirt ball.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 9, 2008 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
oh that's the greatest video game ever
and I now know how I’m wasting my Friday, thanks, Val!
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
I hadn't thought of this...
…but McGee and Johnson may have been two of the ugliest guys to ever suit up in an MLB game. Those two guys playing for the BoB, wearing the same number may cause some kind of a global meltdown…like the world collapsing upon itself or something. Hmmm…
…maybe RJ shouldn’t wear that number, if only to prevent awful things.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 9, 2008 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
actually i think a season or so ago when the cards where in a skid
I did a post on Uggliest guys to get women …
Willem Dafoe(sp)
Willie McGee
Otis Nixon
McJagger
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
is that an anacronym
my mom loves that guy
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
is an anacronym… I’m confused
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
It's an Acronym, yes.
But people usually spell it when they read it. RALPH isn’t an acronym. I just wanted to spell it out for effect.
You and your drama grammer, spants.
It’s something every other night.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
because you said it was not an anacronym
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 10, 2008 1:40 AM EST up reply actions
grammar
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 10, 2008 1:39 AM EST up reply actions
“While my teammates enjoyed some roids and loose women, my preference was a couple of blunts while watching Elmer Fudd cartoons”
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
I might have y'all beat with this one.
I present to you……Popeye Jones (although it may be worth looking in to if he actually ever got any).
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
lol!
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
I always thought he was the black version of this guy
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
ya think sloth and the rest of the goonies still hang out?
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
heh
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
Who's Pebbles?
I was looking up a pic of Nixon when I ran across this and I almost had a heart attack.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
Otis
is one of the ugliest non-deformed people I’ve ever seen
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
Sam Cassell
could we pick him up midseason like every NBA team tries to do? ET would fit in great!
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 9, 2008 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
Sure!
Let the guy dominate the ball and disrupt the flow of the offense while singlehandedly shooting the team out of the game. Sounds good to me!
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 10, 2008 3:03 AM EST up reply actions
OH!
He also provides that veteran veteraniness…That is the sort of thing that somehow overcomes such simple things as “playing well,” and “passing the ball.”
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 10, 2008 3:10 AM EST up reply actions
Why not?
I’m baffled by why the Cards don’t seem to be interested here.
Short-term impact player that we could sign to a reasonable deal.
What’s not to like? Same might be true of Sheets… although it seems the bidding will start higher there. But he could be short term.
I have been worthless today
Following all the Winter Meeting and a Woot Off is not good for production
Stat Whore
lol, indeed
and playing poker in between. I got absolutely nothing done today, and by the looks of it tomorrow isn’t going to be much better.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
Why are we interested in committing money
to a closer? I guess I don’t get it. Fuentes would add a lefty arm + be in the running for a closer, but wouldn’t we have more impact/dollar if we have a short term starting pitcher instead?
I mean, does anyone really think
Fuentes – (Perez + 1st round pick) > {insert SP here} – Joel || Boggs || {a cheaper SP dumster dive}?
Secondly, does it open up Motte to the market? I don’t know how much value he has, considering he was a chip for half of a year of a LOOGY heading into FA.
I can see how there’s interest in finding out price since KRod set the market a lot lower than expected, and P-D hasn’t exactly been hitting the rumors that well, but still… that’s insane IMO.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 7:02 PM EST reply actions
Hmm? I don’t get the correlation
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
I'm just thinking that until today, Mo was on board w/ the need for a starter.
if Mo is going to blow his whole budget on Fuentes, would he do it w/o having a backup plan for a starter? the only cheap starters would be gotten by trade.
Could also be that w/ K-Rod’s contract coming in lower than anticipated, he figured we had the capacity to sign Fuentes and that was the decider. Or maybe he got news on Carp.
I think Mo is smart enough that he wouldn’t blow the rest of his wad without being sure there was a way to get a starter. I don’t see good trade candidates for young cost-controlled starters other than Tampa. Maybe Philly would take ankiel and anderson for happ, but i think they’d want a rightie outfielder.
so far I’m quite pleased with Mo, so I can’t fault without context so for now I was just questioning it in general. He very well could have a trade or option as a SP though I haven’t seen any rumors regarding it yet.
My main concern is that we’re looking at the most optimistic approach when it comes to Carp, and that’s something we can ill afford right now. We need depth.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
assuming we sign him to 2+ years
at a decent price, we can always trade him next offseason. If we can get a decent prospect or fill another hole by trading him then, it might make sense.
Perez and Motte and Kinney and KMC can be pretty useful as setup men, as well as closers; since they all have options, we could even set up a AAAA shuttle to keep their arms fresh. There’s no need to move anyone to accomodate one more pitcher.
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
I made a post towards the end of the year on a shuttle system. if we’re going to get younger in the bullpen then we shouldn’t be in the “saving arms for the next game” business. We should use Memphis as a roster hold and shuttle back and forth depending on usage. So I highly agree. Was just curious if it opened up a market on Motte.
Part of me thinks that if we sign him the contingent that is in favor in giving K-Mac a starting spot is winning the debate. Personally, I’m just fine giving K-Mac a chance in ST to win a starter spot. If that’s the case, then you could make a debate that Springer could be had for the money left over. Talk about renewed depth.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
why are you subtracting Perez?
you’d be subtracting this year’s Kelvin Jíminez. Perez would be in setup or the 7th inning or something in this scenario.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Steve Phillips is speculating
a trade between the Mariners and Tigers since their needs match up (M’s need a closer, Tigers need a power hitter). He thinks the Tigers will get Putz and the Mariners will get Prince Fielder.
Or, maybe that’s Cecil Fielder…….
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
Damnit!
I got the teams backwards in the “needs” section of my post. Anyway. Phillips is still an idiot.
The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.
that is crazy
not even your regular everyday crazy, or even BSI. That kind of crazy makes Sarah Silverman look like she has it together.
Really? A slugger of Fielder’s caliber for an iffy closer? Maybe we should re-sign Izzy and see if we can get Hardy out of him*
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Brewers, not Tigers...
…right? I mean, can the Tiggers trade Prince, considering that he’s, well, retired…I don’t know, maybe there’s some kind of loophole…
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 9, 2008 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
That would be a great deal
A high OBP first baseman with the potential to hit 40+ homers for an expensive, slightly above average closer with injury problems
If that happened it would drop the price of Fuentes even more
With every team that fills their closer role it lowers the price of Fuentes. I really see us signing Fuentes to a well priced deal
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2008 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
Could we get Mark Derosa
The Cubs, looking to acquire a power hitting lefty outfielder without spending big bucks on the FA market, are open to trading him for that type of player. Would they accept Ankiel plus prospect for Derosa. I know that Mo has conceded to play AK, but Derosa would be a huge offensive upgrade at second.
could you see us trading with the cubs? and if they’re looking for an asset they need – should we be helping them out?
yesterday there was a mini thread giving merit to how Rick’s upside hasn’t even been reached yet – given a full year of health and another year with a bat. Why would we take the chance that he booms in Chicago?
Personally, no way in hell.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
I doubt Moz would want the death threats
That would come with trading Ankiel to the Cubs
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2008 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
It took me long enough
getting used to seeing our last CF playing for the little bears. I don’t know if I could stomach seeing Ank and Edmonds playing at the same time in the Cubs’ outfield.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 9, 2008 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
I doubt Moz would want the death threats
That would come with trading Ankielto the Cubs
by JI on Dec 9, 2008 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
Ankiel, plus prospect, for the right to pay DeRosa 5.5M while still on the hook for 4M to another 2B?
and having to watch ank gun down albert at home 3 - 4 times a year after he runs through the oquendo stop sign
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
by adiueordie on Dec 9, 2008 11:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Priority #1
Don’t spend big money on what you already have a lot of.
Examples:
-Corner Outfielders
-Third Basemen
-Utility Infielders
-Closers
You’re welcome, Mo.
nicely done
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
except
just change that to Outfielders
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
There's an easier way to do this
Don’t spend big money on bad players
by JI on Dec 9, 2008 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
Nah
most wouldn’t consider the production Ankiel gave this year to be a bad player but the Cardinals could go out and spend big money on a the same production with Rasmus waiting in the wings.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 9, 2008 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
stltoday.com/cardinals
Is it just me or is the pd website impossible to use? Almost every time i go there it freezes up and lately my laptop is closing internet explorer when I go there. Does anyone have any advice on this or is their site really that bad?
by Walking Underwear on Dec 9, 2008 9:49 PM EST reply actions
i have no issues under firefox or chrome, if that makes a difference.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
more through inertia than passion, I usually use IE.
but i had trouble w/ the site today on IE, so I used firefox w/o problem.
It has been going slow today
I think people are expecting the Cardinals to actually do something and are hitting F5 a billion times.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 9, 2008 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
i've had problems with it all day
but i just “upgraded” to the new firefox 3.1 beta 2… and have had other problems as well.
the worst one is when is when i’m at this site and try to open a new tab, the browser freezes for about 15-30 seconds. really annoying. not with other sites though.
beta 1 was cool. i’m assuming they’re gonna bring out a patch in a day or two to fix this junk. ohterwise i’m just going going back to 3.0 until beta is over.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
its much worse lately with safari
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
Nerdy thinking on maddux's retirement:
Maddux is only eight degrees of separation away from a hall of famer from 1888: Maddux played with —> Davey Lopes (‘85) who played with —> Hoyt Wilhelm (’72) —> (as an aside: Wilhelm played with young Musial, Mays, Maris, and Brooks Robinson) Johnny Mize —> Frankie Frisch —> Hal Chase —> Frank Delehanty —> Ed Delehanty.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
Jamie Moyer
played with Ron Cey (‘86) played with Maury Wills (’71) played with Carl Furillo (‘59) who played with Art Herring (’46) who played with Harry Heilmann (‘29) who played with Crawford (’14) who played with Farmer Vaughn (1899) who played in the 1886 season.
That’s seven.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 10, 2008 2:34 AM EST up reply actions
Kenny Rodgers
played with Brian Downing (‘91) played with Minoso (’76) played with Cavarretta (‘54) played with O’Farrell (‘34) played with Bresnahan (’15) played with O’Rourke (’04) who played in the 1872 season
6 seperations – 136 years. best I could come up with.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 10, 2008 4:34 AM EST up reply actions
actually.. Randy Johnson
played with Minoso (’80) played with Cavarretta (‘54) played with O’Farrell (‘34) played with Bresnahan (’15) played with O’Rourke (’04) who played in the 1872 season
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 10, 2008 4:40 AM EST up reply actions
same years, 5 degrees
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 10, 2008 4:40 AM EST up reply actions
sigh, nevermind, wrong randy johnson.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 10, 2008 4:41 AM EST up reply actions
At some point I would think Julio Franco will become a major "degree" to players since
the dude played from the early 80’s up to 2007 and had a TON of teammates over the years.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
well, if you’re looking to get most years in 6 degrees then he’ll tie kenny rodgers.
6 degrees – 136 years
Julio Franco played with McGraw (‘82) played with Berra (’65) played with Ruffing (‘46) played with Shanks(’24) played with Griffith(’14) played with Cap Anson who had a debut May 6th 1871.
It’s neat, may take some time tomorrow and see how many hof’ers I can string along as ‘teammates’.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 10, 2008 5:09 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, you could probably do the same trick
with Felipe Lopez or Frank Robinson
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Frank needs 5 degrees just to get back to 1872, and the 6th degree to get to 136 years (which for obvious reasons can include several players) . Even though Frank touched on a lot of players, he doesn’t gain a degree. I actually thought he would of all people
Joe Torre however..
played with Crandall (‘61) played with Shoun (’49) played with Grimm(‘36) played with Ames (’18) played with O’Rourke (’04) who played in 1872
5 degrees since he’s still ticking.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 10, 2008 5:43 AM EST up reply actions
5 for Tony as well
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 10, 2008 5:46 AM EST up reply actions
and obviously, I meant Felipe Alou
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
5 - 136 Years
if you use the same conditions and count Oquendo in the same regard
Oquendo coached by Schoendienst (‘90) played with Joe Medwick (’47) played with Mike Gonzalez (‘32) played with Art Devlin (’12) played with Jim O’Rourke (’04) who played in 1872
Otherwise, even as a coach it’s still 6 degrees.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 10, 2008 5:30 AM EST up reply actions
Pujols to Ruth
6 degrees Pujols→Kline→Franco→McGraw→Spahn→Fletcher→Ruth
On the other hand:
Ankiel to Ruth is only 5 degrees Ankiel→Davis→Rose→Nuxhall→Mueller→Ruth
Ankiel to Musial is 4 degrees Ankiel→Howard→Lynn→McCarver→Musial
Any other “pitcher turned slugger” I could connect him to?
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
question
how much does tlr pay jeff gordon to write columns for the pd?
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Viva El Birdos
Related FanShots on Viva El Birdos
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Photo: Padres fan regrets letting mother capture moment with Trevor Hoffman
- Marlins agree to unretire No. 5 for Logan Morrison, who will honor his father’s favorite player
- Weatherman Derek Holland does Dallas TV
- Ask Alex: Will Julio Teheran or Matt Moore win rookie of the year?
- Ku Klux Klan, umpires and bowling: Why the minor leagues tossed out Jim Evans academy
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
