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Winter Meetings: The Cardinals Go Name-Brand Shopping

Interesting stuff in Joe Strauss's big Winter Meetings piece today. Among other things:

  • Jake Peavy? Jake Peavy!? This piece seems to take for granted the idea that Moz and the Cardinals were in on Peavy as recently as two days ago, which is really bizarre. There's been almost no mention of acquiring Peavy at all, outside of drivetime sports talk shows, since the most preliminary discussions began, and now Joe Strauss is writing as though he's giving us Peavy-Watch, Day 50. Was there some big organizational groundswell of support for the move that rose and fell over the course of forty-eight hours, or what? Whatever the reasoning behind Peavy's sudden return to the P-D front page, I'm happy to learn, once again, that  the Cardinals don't plan on making Colby Rasmus available.
  • So I guess Adam Kennedy might remain a Cardinal, after all. The recent introduction of UZR, Mitchel Lichtman's intermittently available defensive stat, onto the Fangraphs player cards makes me a little happier about that possibility. According to UZR Kennedy is, for his career, an average of nearly ten runs a season better than the average second baseman, which makes his 2008 defensive output, according to some statistics among the best in the league, a little easier to stomach. It's still probably a fluke, to some degree, but UZR gives him a high peak from 2003 to 2005. I don't think Kennedy is a very reliable option at second, needing both to repeat an extraordinary defensive season and stay perched on the edge of usefulness on offense just to remain an average player, but when stacked up with the Cardinals' back-of-the-rotation options he seems positively steady. 
  • Bonus: Can you find the weird verb repetition in the article that made me scroll back up and reread twice? 
  • Most useful for Hot Stove League discussion: a list of possible candidates for the Cardinals' last free agent dimes. 
I'd rank the choices listed as follows: 1. Oliver Perez; 2. Andy Pettitte 3. The Field 4. Randy Wolf 5. Brad Penny. Each of the pitchers, as is customary at the one-year-commitment end of the free agent spectrum, offers something intriguing to dream about and something ugly lurking in the background of said dream. 

Oli Perez
Happy thoughts: Perez, once upon a time, was one of the most exciting young pitchers in baseball, and as Cardinals fans we saw it; he struck out ten members of the supercharged 2004 MV3 lineup at old Busch Stadium to earn one of his twelve victories that year. He's got a great fastball and a great slider and despite having reinvented himself no fewer than three times he will be all of 27 years old next year.

Sad thoughts: After that shining moment in 2004 he spent two years in the wilderness, walking 138 batters and allowing 43 home runs in 215 innings. Even in his latest comeback, as an above-average starter with the Mets, he's allowed less than six innings an appearance due to his struggles with his control and the nature of being a strikeout pitcher. Speaking of which: he's a strikeout pitcher. Dave Duncan has probably been thinking about what he'd say to Oliver Perez ever since he struck out ten batters at old Busch Stadium in 2004.

All in all I'd be happy with an Oliver Perez signing—he's the class of pitcher that locking up Kyle Lohse should make available to the Cardinals. With an average, innings-eating pitcher locked up at what seems to be the going rate they can better afford to take a chance on a guy like Perez, who might not go deep into games but may go out and shut a team down for six innings. That sort of thing is a lot easier to stomach when you know where some of the bulk innings in your rotation are coming from in front of him. 

Andy Pettitte
Happy Thoughts: He's Andy Pettitte! He has 215 wins and an entire season's worth of postseason appearances, in which he's gone 18-7. He's made at least 33 starts and thrown at least 204 innings for four years in a row. At 37 his skills have hardly declined; he still gets a ton of groundballs, he still has an above-average K rate, and his control is intact. He's been on what amounts to two one-year commitments in a row, and may be looking for another.

Sad Thoughts: I will misspell his name in every entry until the middle of May, lulled into complacency by Baseball-Reference's auto-correct search function. He's probably been more of a really durable number two than an ace, 1997 and 2005 aside, and as recently as 2002 and 2004 people were wondering aloud if he'd finally broken down. His one-year commitment was $16 million last year, which would basically wrap it up for the Cardinals as far as spending is concerned.  

Pettitte's probably going to cost more than Perez, but all those innings pitched are certainly enticing and his 4.54 ERA from last year is more than a little misleading judging by his peripherals and the fact that he pitched in front of the Yankees' perpetually terrifying defense. 

As for the other two pitchers... well, between them my only happy thought was how cool it was when Brad Penny started the All Star Game and used it as an opportunity to throw as hard as he—read: a human being—possibly could over a single inning. Enthusiasm, often blind, is part of the allure of the Hot Stove, so it wouldn't seem right to feign it. That's why if either player, or anybody else, is Your Guy, it is your duty and your duty alone to get out the proverbial vote from now until the end of the Winter Meetings.

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I did wonder after Loop was not offered arb if part of the rationale

was the already rightie-heavy rotation (and, for that matter, bullpen). Oli Perez & Randy Wolf & Co. make sense on that level.

by tom s. on Dec 8, 2008 5:52 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

or the Unit

for that matter

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Dec 8, 2008 11:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Looks like the Cubs will get Peavy

Sounds like Mo didn’t want to get in the way of the Cubs spending machine. It’s always good to do favors for the teams above us. I’m glad Mo did his part in not getting Peavy, I mean why try to sabotage the Cubs??. I wonder how good their rotation will be next season. Probably not as good as they are on paper. But I am glad Rasmus will finally get to show his stuff for us.

I’m so happy we are going to keep Kennedy. It’s going to be great to see him play everyday. Can’t wait to see him become the offensive machine we know he can be. I am still amazed other teams weren’t lined up for his services. I wonder if Mo is going to try and re-sign him for a few more years. This guy is money!!

I guess next on Mo’s agenda will be re-signing Izzy….let’s hope. It will be great to see him get his 300th save here. I can’t wait!!!

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 8, 2008 5:57 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I thought the Cubs-Peavy talks were on Life Support

the last thing I read was that deal was all but dead

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 8:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's hoping

You are wrong Hugo, I would love to see Peavy in Cardinal Red. I thought the talks were dead as well, but I’ve always been overly optimistic

"Wherever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai

by brik on Dec 8, 2008 8:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How am I wrong?

Color me confused but I never said I wouldn’t like to see him as a Cardinal….and I heard that it was dead, again not something I can be wrong on

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 8:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nvm

I just figured out what you meant…color me asleep

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 8:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No prob

It’s early here as well :)

"Wherever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai

by brik on Dec 8, 2008 8:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Now that I understand you ;)

Why do you want me to be wrong? Why would you want the Cubs – Peavy deal to be alive and well if you want him to be a Cardinal?

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 8:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I misunderstood

I thought the Peavy deal was for the Redbirds…

"Wherever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai

by brik on Dec 8, 2008 8:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

According to overnight news reports,

the Cub’s owners (Chicago Herald Tribune) is expected to file for bankruptcy as early as sometime this week. Hardly a time to be going after a high priced free agent player.

by ridgesee on Dec 8, 2008 9:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tribune Company

Is filing for bankruptcy? I knew that The Herald was in real trouble, but I wasn’t aware that the entire company was in that bad of shape. If that’s the case, how does Zell not start looking at selling each piece since he’s going to have to reorganize the entire company’s debt anyway?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 10:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yup

they are filing for bankruptcy

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 1:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

is it wrong that there's a part of me that kind of wants the cubs to go through a season

of that disaster arrangement where the Expos were owned by the rest of MLB? Just one season of it but..

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Dec 8, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The cubs franchise is not part of the bankruptcy filing

so I don’t think this will effect any moves they make. It will probably make the sale of the team speed up some though.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 8, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's what I thought...

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you my friend are retarded…

by vitaminjay on Dec 8, 2008 11:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i meant that for the guy who loves kennedy, and izzy!!

by vitaminjay on Dec 8, 2008 11:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You, my friend,

are horrendously out of line. You, my friend, obviously haven’t yet availed yourself of the community guidelines. We like new members here and like that our membership is growing. However, we also expect that you will maintain some degree of fundamental respect for the other members. The “you are retarded” stuff should be saved for the junior high locker room wall or the p-d boards.

by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 12:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

additionally,

it appears vitaminjay’s sarcasm-o-tron is broken. KY’s offering was dripping with it.

by meat on Dec 8, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i was just about to say the same thing, and your comment popped up. those are some crappy vitamins.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Dec 8, 2008 12:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It was dripping pretty thick

Woke up a little cranky this morning and after reading the news about Kennedy and Peavy to some extent, I couldn’t help myself. I hate to sound negative all the time, and I’m not really much of a negative person, but my hatred for the Cubs gets the best of me, and I just don’t feel like we are trying to compete with them. I know the Cards don’t have the same financial resources that the Cubs do, but the way we are going about “trying” to compete for the Central is rubbing me the wrong way. I guess I am just tired of the Cards “tredding water” and not learning from the mistakes of the past two seasons (Kennedy, Izzy). The off season is not over so I need to be more positive I guess.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 8, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I must admit

that your post made me think, “Who peed in his Cheerios this morning?”

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 8, 2008 3:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I tend to agree

I think the plan was to rebuild for 2009, and they would spend to have a real contender… but I think the Cubbies spending spree has changed that.
I think now they just arnt going to add payroll and hope the kids can help and we catch lightning (ala 2006 or the Phillies this year).

I think now they are content to wait another couple of years until the Cubbies are crippled by their payroll.

I just hope Albert sticks around/doesnt get hurt in the meantime, while we are treading water.
I know they keep saying they will add payroll “for the right player” but a HanRam in his prime or a young ace pitcher isnt going to hit FA and decide to just give us enough of a deal that we actually try for them.

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Dec 8, 2008 5:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't bet on Adam Kennedy being here in 2009

The job this winter is to make Adam Kennedy look as attractive as possible so another team can be fooled in to trading something quasi-substantial for him to be their starting 2B. Exposing him for the complete @$$ he really is this winter will only bring back a cipher on the return end of the deal. I can’t imagine the disgruntled 2B being welcomed back with opened arms next year in the clubhouse. Kennedy had a bit of a rebound year in 2008 against a disastrous 2007.

Derek Lowe would be a great fit but supposedly he has his heart set on 7 years 100mil + from Boston. Lowe will probably be a fallback option for a big market club that fails to land a primary target. He would look great pitching here next year but don’t count on it.

Pettite won’t pitch in STL unless he is blown away with an offer that blows away NYY or LAD, which I hope won’t happen. MLB.com linked the Cards yesterday as having interest in him.

I think Jon Garland might be the best FA SP fit. He would be perfect to compete with Piniero for the last rotation spot or in case Wellemeyer falls apart. Despite a 4.90 ERA last year, he did go 14 – 10. He seems to be overlooked by most this offseason and I can see him being picked up in a Loshe-type style this offseason.

Penny did go 16 – 4 in 2007, which is quite recent, so if he comes cheaply enough, he should be jumped on. At this point Randy Wolf should probably be avoided at all costs, as it seems he is seeking a 4 year deal. Oliver Perez might wind up being another fallback for a big market team like LAA or LAD, that fails to land Sabathia, Burnett, Sheets, or Lowe.

I would probably satisfy myself with picking up Garland this offseason or acquiring Cabrera from Baltimore to round out the rotation and force Piniero to compete for his slot. I would look at signing Juan Cruz to compete for CL. Either that or hope that Fuentes/Wood can be had for a bargian because NYM signed K-ROD and MIL/DET/CLE couldn’t/wouldn’t sign a closer.

The key to STL getting one of the legit closers is wether or not K-ROD resigns with Anaheim. If K-ROD stays in LAA, the Mets will be forced to choose between Fuentes and Wood, with MIlwaukee signing the other. Then Detroit, predictably, will sign Hoffman to close(with their fetish for an emasculated bullpen), leaving Cleveland and Stl to wage a bidding war for Juan Cruz, which Cleveland will win.

Model 1:

LAA: Arredondo

NYM: Rodriguez

MIL: Fuentes/Wood

CLE: Fuentes/Wood

DET: Hoffman

STL: Cruz

MODEL 2

LAA: K-ROD

NYM: Fuentes/Wood

MIL: Fuentes/Wood

DET: Hoffman

CLE:Cruz

STL: NONE

by Czechguardsman on Dec 8, 2008 6:14 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I am pretty much sold on him coming back

Baring something completely off the wall he is coming back I just don’t see him moving

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 8:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

another sleeper free agent pitcher?

…Braden Looper. Maybe we’ll sign him before ST in a Lohse type deal.

by E-Dizzle on Dec 8, 2008 8:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Garland?

Garland is bad. Plain and simple. He doesn’t walk anyone, but he also doesn’t strike anyone out, and that K rate is plummetting. That is a bad sign. He’s never had a FIP below 4.22, and that is going in the wrong direction too.

To be honest, I don’t care what his W/L record was. That doesn’t matter at all because it’s a context-specific stat. Guys who pitch for good teams will generally have more wins, and when you have a good bullpen backing you up you’ll win more games too b/c they won’t blow as many games after you’ve left.

The Cards would be best served ignoring anyone’s W/L and paying attention to more useful metrics such as K and BB rate, FIP, LD/GB/FB %, and maybe even pitch F/X data.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 11:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks for writing that

and saving me the time =]

by FunkeeC on Dec 8, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Lowe is going...

…to be 36 years old next June. Not even the Red Sox would sign him to a 7-year deal. That would be insane.

by sabertooth5185 on Dec 8, 2008 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Um, evidence please.

This reads like Tim Haudricourt.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 6:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

CARDS interested in Burnett

I went over to MSN FOX sports and they have a huge Rosenthal article posted on how the Cardinals are now serious players for AJ Burnett and further down in the article in the Cards are seriously interested in Putz.

Burnett could be quite the Risk. I don’t see it happening.

by Czechguardsman on Dec 8, 2008 6:58 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

shocking

Both those guys would cost serious dollars and would represent a sea change in organizational philosophy. Rosenthal is a solid reporter, but I’ll believe it when I see it.

by 10worldchamps on Dec 8, 2008 9:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see how the Cards

pony up a big long-term contract for Burnett while weighted down with the Carpenter contract. Can we really take on two huge contracts for starting pitchers plagued with injuries?

by jjray on Dec 8, 2008 10:43 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And of course, Wainwright's salary isn't going down...

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Dec 8, 2008 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Burnett

is too much – he’s 32 and wants a 5 yr deal.

WALK AWAY MO. WALK AWAY.

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Dec 8, 2008 2:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Putz...

….wouldn’t be a bad guy to obtain if the Cards are hellbent on getting a “proven” closer. He’s only guaranteed one year on his current deal ($5M) with an option for 2010 ($8.6M).

by sabertooth5185 on Dec 8, 2008 2:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Verb: retain

Just guessing though. The only stylistic choice that bothered me from that article was the use of ‘however’ to start a sentence. I’ve never liked that.

by azruavatar on Dec 8, 2008 7:55 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

that was

my guess, too. Can we dump Kennedy off or not? And if so, surely there’s a way to trade some of our outfield depth for an upgrade at 2B.

by DCGreg on Dec 8, 2008 7:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Retain, retained, retaining

Nice vocab choices there, Joe Strauss. Maybe VEB should get together and buy Joe a thesaurus for Christmas. :)

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 8, 2008 9:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

heh

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

old school

never start a sentence with a conjunction
keep the faith az

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 8, 2008 10:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Grammar police!!!

Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net

by erik on Dec 8, 2008 10:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But

‘however’ isn’t a conjunction…

"so if you can’t understand what someone else is saying why don’t you just shut up about it instead of being a jerk-off?"

"i’d challenge you to offer me alternatives which would convey the same level of meaning without being even more wordy and verbose."

by baw on Dec 8, 2008 12:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nope..

“However” can be used as an adverb or a conjunction (namely, a coordinating conjunction).

by Forsch31 on Dec 8, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Conjunction, junction...

…what’s your function?

Yeah, I just went there…I am now going to slink back into my corner and question all of the steps of my life that led me to this point…

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 2:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There never was such a rule.

And there never will be.

But “however” is not a conjunction.

And: as long as we’re on the subject, don’t put a comma after a conjunction unless it’s separated from its following conjunct clause by a qualifying clause. If your prosody calls, as here, for an emphatic pause, use a colon.

by alberich on Dec 8, 2008 3:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Whoa there.

I’d rather see people misuse the comma than the colon or semi-colon. Further, I don’t agree with you on the matter of colons, which should only be used when listing. (The above usage is iffy. A comma could be used properly there.) Semi-colons are used to separate two related, complete clauses. Any other use makes me cringe.

There’s already a guy on here that misuses apostrophes to a maddening degree. Let’s not get people involved in misusing other punctuation.

Lastly, none of us are great writers. As long as one clearly explains oneself, there should be no problem. This is a blog, after all. I’d say that most of the comments here are of fairly high writing quality when compared to the typical sports-related message board.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One last thing.

With exception to the punctuation rules, I think many rules of language are meant to be broken. The conversational tone to many comments allows people to write in their speaking voice. Some posts require analysis, and those posts require a more formal writing style.

My one pet peeve, again, is apostrophes. Nearly every team ends with an “s.” Examples: Cubs, Cardinals, Braves, Yankees. Two exceptions are the Red Sox and the White Sox. In any case, when one is discussing these teams in terms of possession, one should not insert an apostrophe between the next-to-last letter and the “s.” What you do is this: Cubs’, Cardinals’, Braves’, Yankees’.

“The Cardinals’ payroll is expected to hover around 100 million dollars.” A case could be made for not using the apostrophe there at all. It should never look like this: Cardinal’s. That is not the team name. All sports teams are treated as plural proper nouns. “The Cardinals have decided to retain Adam Kennedy for the 2009 season.”

The only team with a truly unique situation are the A’s. The name has an apostrophe in it. There is really no reason for the apostrophe, other than the possibility that the owners wanted to ensure the nickname was pronounced correctly. In any case, being a sportswriter for the A’s would give me fits.

“The Cubs are being sold.” Not the Cub’s or Cubs’.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 4:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And your grammar knowledge comes up a bit short...

A’s has an apostrophe because any acronym gets one, the acronym standing for athletics. So do years. The 1980’s, for example.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 6:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Both ways

are acceptable. I’d read an article about the history of the “A-apostrophe-s” situation, and there was an internal struggle about whether or not to use the apostrophe. Besides, it is a common mis-usage of the apostrophe. It’s so common that it has become acceptable.

I don’t think that my grammar knowledge comes up short.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the acronym situation is one where a standing definition of correct was overrun by misinterpretation up to the point of public tolerance. Doesn’t really stand up in literal arguments, IMO :)

by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 7:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So,

you prefer the apostrophe-less method?

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For acronyms, yes. That was the part of this conversation that caught my eye.

by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 10:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

(and years – 1980s or ‘80s, not 1980’s or 80’s)

by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 10:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great minds, etc :)

by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 10:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Me too.

I see the A’s example as more of an initialism.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 10:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Your knowledge did come up short,

in that instead of giving the actual reason for the apostrophe, you made one up. Nothing personal.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 8:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I suggested

it might be a possibility. It is personal when you’re acting like I just made shit up. If anything, this has more to do with my lack of knowledge of A’s history than it does any shortcoming in grammar knowledge.

Isn’t “As” a word already? If you were an owner, wouldn’t you want to make sure your team name was correctly pronounced it? My explanation is highly plausible, whether you think I’m making it all up or not. The apostrophe was added to clarify the pronunciation of the word.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 8:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I failed to mention

that this is a fairly standard (journalistic/academic) editing issue. 1980s becomes ‘80s, not 80’s.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 8:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I looked in some text books

and the Chicago Manual of Style and MLA do not allow apostrophes to be used in acronyms/initialisms EXCEPT when leaving it out causes confusion. Such as the “A’s” / “As” example.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 10:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

However, there are of course the Stanford Cardinal, Tulane Green Wave, and Alabama Crimson Tide to consider. And why are the Reds and Browns plural? Wait, I started that with a conjunction.

What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray

by Tupelo on Dec 8, 2008 7:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Those are college teams.

Neither here nor there. And I don’t mind sentences that start with a conjunction.

The Reds were inspired by a team named the Red Stockings, who shortened their nickname to Reds. (Did you know the current Reds were briefly called the Redlegs in the late 50s in order to combat the association with communism?) I’m assuming the Reds and Browns are referring to the color of the uniforms. Rather than saying “Redshirts,” or whatever, they just nicknamed the teams the Reds and Browns. Though it is an usual word, in that it’s not typically plural, it still requires no apostrophe,

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 8, 2008 9:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually

however is a conjunctive adverb, which functions as a sort of special type of conjunction. It can been inserted between two independent clauses to connect them. A semi colon would be in front, and it would be followed by a comma. The instinctive aversion to using it to start a sentence probably comes from the fact that it is typically used to connect ideas the way a traditional conjunction does; however, using conjunctive adverbs to begin a sentence is grammatically correct since they are also adverbs as well. Think of conjunctive adverbs as Aaron Miles. They play all over ;)

mel

by mel1975 on Dec 8, 2008 7:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If that is the case

then TLR probably uses conjuctive adverbs too frequently and in inappropriate situations.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 8, 2008 7:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, the "rule"

against using conjunctions and conjunctives to begin sentences is not a rule: It’s simply a lazy way for grade-school english teachers to avoid having to correct as many sentence fragments.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 8:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

or to simplify the teaching.

I find that I am often un-teaching a lot of “rules” made to simplify teaching to students at lower levels. This is true with items like “paragraphs have to have 8-10 sentences” or “never use ‘you’ in your writing”, or as is the case in my building, a teacher who disallows the use of any be verb. ever. English is an adventure to be sure.

mel

by mel1975 on Dec 8, 2008 9:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

azru wins the dinette set

I’ll admit I’m a long-time member of the start-with-a-conjunction club, although I’ll usually rephrase it if I spend any time thinking about the sentence.

by DanUpBaby on Dec 8, 2008 12:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Anyone else hear Moz on KSDK last night?

I was half asleep but on Sports Talk they had a live phone interview with Moz last night. Frank asked the standard questions of “is Kennedy still being shopped?” “are you going after so and so?” and even “who is this years Lohse that you will sign cheap after other clubs pass on him?”. I liked Moz’s answer to that last one, basically I won’t name names but I think there will be a few people unsigned in late Jan (good assumption I think). Nothing ground shattering but I would be interested if someone who was more awake remembered anything juicy.

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 8:17 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Perez??

Really?

Some how I see a LaDuncan- Perez relationship ending poorly, along the lines of Jason Marquis and Garrett Stephenson.

by JMedwick on Dec 8, 2008 8:46 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I didn't realize

Jason Marquis and Garrett Stephenson had a falling out?

jk.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 8, 2008 9:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think

Jason Marquis and Garret Stephenson ever met. They both knew LaDunky though.

by ridgesee on Dec 8, 2008 9:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well then

i am sure they met in the support group…

"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." -Rogers Hornsby

by nomar34 on Dec 8, 2008 10:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The...

…Anthony Reyes Club for the Disliked By Duncan. Or TARCFTDBB for short. That is pronounced Tark-fut-dubaba.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that would be TARCFTDBD, right?

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 8, 2008 7:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I suppose it would

It is now the Tark-fut-dubda

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 9:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like that better.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 8, 2008 10:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

morning gents

ken rosenthal says the cards are in on a.j. burnett

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8911104/Sources:-Cardinals-serious-about-Burnett

for what that’s worth. i don’t think the cards will ultimately end up getting him - i think burnett is using the cards for negotiating leverage - but i do believe they are bidding. mozeliak was central to the negotiations for burnett back in 2005, and has always liked the player. tony and dave like him; so does the statistical unit.

as i said, i doubt they will end up with him, but i do believe the cards are taking a run at the guy.

by lboros on Dec 8, 2008 10:25 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Nice to see you around again

Some, myself included, were wondering your thoughts on the Khalil acquisition.

by OCCardsFan on Dec 8, 2008 10:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+2

"A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein." - Joe Theismann

by TurdFerguson on Dec 8, 2008 11:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree w/ danup's front-page post on this

it’s a good trade as far as it goes -- not much downside, considerable upside for one season. but that’s the only problem w/ the trade -- it’s at best a 1-year fix. next year they’ll be looking for a SS again, unless they think either tyler greene or brendan ryan will be ready to step in.

overall i like the trade though, because k greene probably ranks near the top of the list of plausible options. i’d love to get yunel escobar or reid brignac, but the cards can’t afford guys like that talentwise. ben zobrist? better hitter than khalil and cheaper too, but nowhere near as good a fielder. brandon wood might have been a better option and within reach, but his fielding is suspect and tony likes very heady players at SS (and that doesn’t describe wood).

by lboros on Dec 8, 2008 11:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re-up

Is it a foregone conclusion that he will walk after the one year here? Maybe we can resign him and bridge the gap to one of the younger guys if Ryan and Greene aren’t ready. Of course, if he has a good year, he might walk and get a big contract on the free agent market, but a mid-year extension could happen

by brafi on Dec 8, 2008 11:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he might stay

but they will have to pay top $$$$ to keep him here, and there is a lot of built-in inflation on the current payroll. albert and carp will max out their ann’l salaries in 2010-11, wainwright, yadi, and lohse all have built-in raises, and guys like ankiel / ludwick / duncan will be reaching free agency or arbitration, making them more expensive. if greene is worth keeping, they’ll have to give him 3 to 4 years at about $9 milllion per -— thus making other roster moves less affordable.

by lboros on Dec 8, 2008 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ben zobrist? better hitter than khalil

Not sure I totally agree with that. His minor league numbers seem to indicate that he’d walk more, but I think his power numbers last year are a bit suspect, because he never hit more than 7 homers in any year on the minor leagues. If you’re looking at his walk rate in the minors I think that you have to take his power numbers into account too.

Greene was terrible last season, but he’s been a better than league average SS with the bat in every season prior and has a lot more AB’s at the big league level than Zobrist does.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 11:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i think zobrist would be better if given the chance

career obp of .428 in the minor leagues; i’d like to see what he could do if given 600 pas at the big-league level. his slg might be 50 points lower than khalil greene’s, but his obp might be 100 points higher.

by lboros on Dec 8, 2008 11:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He very well could be better over the course of a full season

I still think that the organization should be pursuing him over this offseason and during the season next year as someone who can be a long term solution at that SS position. The closer Brignac gets to the big leagues, the more available Zobrist becomes. It would also give the Cardinals time to see whether Rasmus will play next year in CF, which would open up Skippy, Mather, Ank, and Ludwick as possible trade bait for the Rays, who still have a pretty big hole in the outfield.

I like the Greene trade simply because he could really help us next year (which I’m not sure that Zobrist would), it keeps our defense above average (Zobrist would not) for a pitching staff that puts a lot of balls in play, and puts another power stick in the lineup from the right handed side for a team that has struggled to hit lefties for the past 3 years for whatever reason.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Zobrist isn't a very good fielder, either.

The numbers and Rays fans agree on that.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 2:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that surprises me

I think one of the things defensive statistics will have to work against as they gain acceptance is the way that seemingly every shortstop without a lot of home run power comes up with a good defensive rep.

by DanUpBaby on Dec 8, 2008 3:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's Nichols' Law

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Nichols_Law_Of_Catcher_Defense

Dare I mention anything about Yadier Molina…

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I would

Yadi is good but the more I see metrics the more they tell me he isn’t always the best at what counts, sure he can cut down runners but he isn’t as great at blocking pitches as he needs to be.

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

catchers

I’ve long ago lost all hope with, and the defensive statistics are understandably a little more reticent to evaluate them. But shortstops I don’t get.

by DanUpBaby on Dec 8, 2008 4:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Khalil Greene?

Anyway, this isn’t the gold gloves. The defensive stats are determined by numbers and a composite of the stats usually is enough to figure out which players are good and bad at defense.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 6:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nice to see you back as well

so, a question: what would it take to get zobrist (to play 2nd for now) and sonnenstine from tampa?

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 8, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Probably something

Perez/Motte + Schumaker/Mather + Anderson might work

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh no

deja vu, all over again. hopefully after missing out on Burnett they don’t settle for another Ponson.

Brad Penny seems to be the sort of guy that Duncan works his magic with. I’m probably in the minority on that sort of notion.

Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net

by erik on Dec 8, 2008 10:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nope.....

I’d love a Penny signing too.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Dec 8, 2008 10:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would rather the Cards add Penny

Than Burnett, who seems to have caught the eyes of a number of big name suitors.

by JMedwick on Dec 8, 2008 10:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

with carp’s contract hanging over them, they need to make the best gamble they can. i agree on the greene gamble and i think penny is probably the best price/perfpormance option out there fa-wise

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 8, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I assume you don't mean for the same price.

What would you pay Penny?

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

who the hell are you?

we’ve missed you in these parts. I see you’ve already forgotten where the reply button is located. Welcome back. Maybe we’ll put together some sort of tutorial for you. I assume you don’t need the community guidelines like our friend above, though.

by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 12:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The reply button

is located next to your name and time stamp and is used to make outlandish claims, misrepresented “Facts” and any other generally incoherent rants the person feels need to be shared with the world.

Or is that just the definition for me?

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Dec 8, 2008 4:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LBOROS!

We lubs us some lboros. Nice to see that creepy bird eye around here again.

by mojowo11 on Dec 8, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hello sir!

That is all…

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 2:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The eye of Sauron has returned!!!

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 8, 2008 4:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Long-Term Deal For Burnett?

Giving AJ Burnett a 5-year deal would be as stupid as giving Chris Carpenter a 4-term deal.

by thepainguy on Dec 8, 2008 10:34 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

plus, they lose their first round pick to Toronto.

Not really liking this scenario.

Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net

by erik on Dec 8, 2008 10:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Losing your first round pick to

get a player that projects as 3 WAR with upside of 5WAR is a reasonable gamble. As far as health goes, that’s another can of worms. Every pitcher has their warts but I’m inclined to ignore Burnett’s.

by azruavatar on Dec 8, 2008 10:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you've been the President

of the A.J. Burnett fan club for some time. I just hate 5 year deals for pitchers — unless they’re absolutely at the top of their profession. It’s not the first rounder we’d miss here. I’m afraid it’s another Carpenter contract we’d have to deal with.

by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 12:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

If they could work out some kind of 2-3 year thing with Burnett with a low guaranteed rate and a lot of performance bonuses, I’d be just fine with that. But Burnett would be a damn fool for taking a deal like that when the Braves, Yankees, or Sox will throw a wad of green at him.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 11:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A 4 term deal

would be ludicrous, Senate or Presidential. He’d be 50 by the time those contracts ran out!

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 8, 2008 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What about House?

The house is only 2 year terms ;) still not good though

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 3:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yes, but for four or five years?

Short term, he definitely would help. Long term is what scares me.

Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net

by erik on Dec 8, 2008 10:53 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

The Cards suck at developing starting pitching of that caliber

I don’t like the long term deal either but I’d do it. How many more prime Pujols years are we going to have?

by azruavatar on Dec 8, 2008 11:00 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

flags fly forever

i guess. i dunno, like chris said, i’m afraid of another carp scenario

Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net

by erik on Dec 8, 2008 11:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

If there is a slight fear of not extending Pujols… we have been spoon fed this getting ready for 2009… money coming off the books… don’t want to mortgage our chances of winning in 2009 by making a mid-season deal to win in 2008. Pull the freaking trigger already! At some point you have to actually do what it takes to win, if not you are always planning for the future and never doing anything in the present.

?

by showmejoe on Dec 8, 2008 8:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree, erik

there are only a handful of pitchers that i would give a 5 year deal to…injury prone throwers or throwers over 30 on are not on the list and especially not if you are both. 3 years max and that is just because he is a special talent…he will end up getting more elsewhere…

"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." -Rogers Hornsby

by nomar34 on Dec 8, 2008 11:00 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Burnett might be nice

But he is at the lower end of type A FAs that would be worth the 1st rounder. Oliver Perez should be DQ’d from the start because of his type-A status- not worth the pick. I still would prefer Wood or Hoffman coupled with Penny or Johnson, and if we have $15-17 million to work with, as Strauss is reporting, Mo might be able to make that happen.

by BustaCard on Dec 8, 2008 11:21 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Here's the quote from the Strauss article that says the most to me...
“Our preference is to stay shorter than longer,” Mozeliak said.

Which means that we’re probably out of the running for players like Burnett, Wolf, Lowe, etc, who are all looking for 4 years or more.

If this is what the organization is looking for — short term contracts (1-2 years), then only a few of free agent pitchers make any sense at all:

  1. Randy Johnson: Probably the cheapest and best option considering how good he was last year. If any National League contender gets him it would be a huge boon to their chances for not much money. On a slightly off topic note…Why aren’t the Cubs trying to sign him instead of trading for Peavy? They are a team set up for a run in the short term, and he was better than Peavy away from PetCo last year and doesn’t have an albatross contract. Doesn’t make sense to me…
  2. Andy Pettitte: Is looking for a one year deal, but is probably the most expensive of the players listed here. He’s also probably the worst pitcher of the ones that I have listed to, so he’d be option three on my chart. Again, why aren’t the Cubs bidding for him instead of Peavy?
  3. Brad Penny: Hear me out…He was really stinking good in 2007 and battled a bunch of injuries last season — which were similar to the injuries that he had in 2006 if I’m not mistaken. His situation seems similar to Lohse’s last season in that teams don’t want to give him a long term contract or pay him big $$$ because they aren’t sure which Penny they are getting: The dominant, top of the rotation starter from 2007, or the injury plagued one from 2006 and 2008? Obviously Lohse wasn’t signed because he overestimated the market, but Penny’s situation is similar: He needs to prove that he can be a top flight starter. He’s 31 next May and could then seek a long term (5 years or more) deal after next season if he proves that he’s healthy. Seems like a great candidate for a one year $10M deal to me, which would suit the Cardinals just fine. I’d much rather have Penny for 1Y$10M than Burnett for 5Y75M

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 11:27 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Thank you Michael Scott!!

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Perez

I am quite intrigued by Oliver Perez. The guy has a hell of an arm and some absolutely filthy stuff. He’s very erratic, true, but when he’s throwing well he’s pretty tough. I’d be uncomfortable giving him a longer deal b/c of his erratic-ness, but for a 2-3 year deal he’d be a good addition. He won’t take it, but it’s worth kicking the tires.

I’ll say it again…Randy Johnson.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 11:56 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ollie Perez

He seems like the type of guy who would drive Duncan CRAZY because of his meddling inconsistency of performance from start to start, and his willingness to not follow gameplans on hitters and try to get them out his way. Very much like Jason Marquis — can be really good when he has his head on his shoulders, but can be terrible when he goes rogue.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For the love of...

Please sign Randy Johnson.

Johnson

Johnson

"Never judge a taco by its price" - Dr. Gonzo

by KennyWang on Dec 8, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

From June 29th on last season

Perez had a 3.42 era with 112 K in 110 innings. He was still walking a fair number of guys, but he wasn’t really getting hit either. He was inconsistent before that, and pretty outstanding in 2007, but that was really my point. He’s up and down, yes, but when he’s up he’s very very good. I think for a low year-low dollar value contract he’d be a good pickup. Like 2 years 20 million+ incentives or something. He wouldn’t take it, which I said as well. Wouldn’t you rather have Perez at 10 million a year +incentives (which, I’ll say again, he wouldn’t take) than Pinata at 7? I absolutely would.

I’d also rather have Johnson at one year, 9-11 million than just about anyone out there.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 4:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why are we looking for 1-2 years for SP's.....

When we don’t have alot of quality depth in the minors, especially SP’s with upper rotation potential? I can understand not wanting a SS for that reason (Koz and Vaz), but seriously, our minor league pitching, while solid, is far from spectacular.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Dec 8, 2008 12:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Volatility

Generally speaking, pitching is a much more risky of an investment. If you want to use a window of 3+ years and project pitching performance for a pitcher, you’ll need to use a much wider range of possibilities vs. a hitter. There might be some reluctance just because of that. We look at Carpenter and Mulder, and think we were the victims of bad luck. Maybe to some extent that is true, but a lot of other teams have similar stories to tell.

Also, while I think your assessment of the farm clubs starting pitching is fair, many of the top pitching prospects are in the upper levels. So they will need to make assessments on many of them soon. If not this season, then next.

I’m generally an advocate of keeping pitching deals short anyway. I happen to think it’s an especially good stance to take for this team, this year.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 8, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Kennedy

Agree with the commenter above that doesn’t believe he is really going to stay. Most likely such statements on Mo’s part are public posturing. They don’t want to create the impression that the situation is untenable. Would like to have another team take on as much of the contract as possible or, if we are going to have to eat some salary, receive a marginal prospect back.

Hopefully Tony doesn’t brush up on his letter writing skills again this offseason.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 8, 2008 12:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Kennedy can go

If he stays, so be it. But if he goes I think there are a couple things to consider.

1) the market is really thin for 2b
2) our budget is getting pretty tight (especially if we sign the pitching that I think we’re all hoping we sign)

Shedding AKs salary would help, even if we had to swallow a million. And we do have in-house, cheap options. Miles is serviceable, Ryan still has potential to be above replacement, and Hoffpauir and Barden have a lot of, pretty successful high minors experience. I know that doesn’t necessarily translate into a good situation for 2b next year, but it certainly is a position where we have some options. And if it meant that we could strengthen our pitching- minors and majors- situation, I would be willing to see if anyone stepped up from in-house next year.

by BustaCard on Dec 8, 2008 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Perez can't throw strikes

I don’t want any part of him in a big money LT deal.

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 1:23 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I say take a chance on Perez

or maybe Penny… I don’t think they’re interested in Randy Johnson (plus he’s really old), and AJ Burnett will most likely get a 5 year deal (hell naw). Pettitte will be too expensive… if we get him, we won’t have any leverage during the trade season I think. Or maybe we should just get Kerry Wood (still fantasizing about the idea of 3 flamethrowing overlords in the bullpen)

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 1:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Has there been any talk of trading major league position players for pitching?

That way you don’t have to spend at the free agent rates for starters, and can plug the extra position player talent in as replacements. It’s often easier to sell other teams on your MLB roster than minor leaguers.

Maybe something like Rick Ankiel for Sonnanstine (a little too good of a deal, but just an example). Or something bigger like Ludwick for Marcum or Ricky Nolasco?

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 2:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Sounds like

Skip Schumaker is the only position player the Cards are dangling. I would gladly give up Ankiel and a solid B prospect for a starter, but it doesn’t seem like there’s much of a market for Slick Rick.

by silent_bob on Dec 8, 2008 2:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think we would talk about it more

but after the no-deal last year at the trade deadline and very few talks about that, I don’t even feel like speculating about it. Schumaker is about the only person I’d feel comfortable with trading, and Chris Duncan doesn’t have any trade value, so it’s hard to say… although we probably need to trade both Skip and one other outfielder, since there’s still a total glut in the OF. perhaps Mather would be a good trade chip, but I’d hate to see him go (and mash like 40 homeruns per season over the next 10 years)

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 2:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not saying YOU should talk about it more, I'm saying the front office should talk about it more.

Why are you uncomfortable trading Ankiel or Ludwick? Sure, it makes the offense weaker, but it would still be strong overall. And worrying about possibly creating a hole in the field is a little short-sighted when there are about 3.5 holes in the rotation.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If you can get value yes, but I have a feeling they they are going to be viewed as one year wonders

and you won’t be able to get the players in return that are going to match their abilities.

Frankly, If anyone should be dangled it should be Glaus.

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that's pretty much how I feel

I think that we’d get ripped off for either Ludwick or Ankiel

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel is going to get paid like .5 WAR player

But has potential to be a 3 WAR player. He has a lot of upside for a team willing to take a little risk for only one year on a cheap contract. Someone like the Yankee’s could use a stop gap at CF for one season.

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Might you be overrating them?

Ankiel, for example:
+1.5 win offense
+.25 win position
0 fielding
2 win replacement
+3.25 WAR overall

That’s good, but he’ll actually be paid some money in 2008 and is gone afterwards. At a FA worth of $15MM and a payday of say $5MM, that’s a gain of $10MM. Sonnanstine’s conservatively a 2 WAR pitcher (I’d go 3), which is worth $10MM a year. He’ll make nothing, $4MM, $6MM, $8MM (just guessing, feel free to modify) over the next four years. That’s a net gain of $22MM. Ankiel’s not anywhere close to that.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

why would the Rays trade Sonnanstine

for Ankiel? do they have that much depth at starting pitching?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, They have that much depth

The Rays have to get rid of someone this off season even if it is not the perfect deal for them. They are just loaded with SP depth. Schumaker or Mather though seems like a better fit for them than Ankiel.

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know Mather... help?

But Schumaker doesn’t seem like anything better than a Gabe Gross-based platoon.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Check his B-R

page for his stats for 2008 and the minors page for his minor league numbers…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 3:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Joe Mather

having his whole name would probably help…lol

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 3:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Joe Mather

Joe Mather

He is young and cost controlled. He seems like a real power threat with a good glove. He could easily be a .850 OPS corner guy that can occasionally play CF.

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think everyone was impressed by Mather's glovework

at least a little bit… he was better than expected, plus I think he’s still improving his hitting abilities.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If he’s on our team by time we go into ‘09 and gets enough platoon time in, ’09 will be his boom year. He’s highly underrated

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Looks a little old for his league, and just started putting up good numbers.

But if he really is a good fielder, he’s pretty solid.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

a complete readjustment on his swing and approach has made him a late bloomer. He’s always had strength he’s just now hitting like he does.

The fielding surprised many though, but I wouldn’t ever consider him CF worthy long term. Good platoon option.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 3:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

they need

a right fielder

we need sonny and zobrist to avoid more floppiness net year
zobrist can play second and is a better floppy than floppy is
he IS the new spiez

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 8, 2008 3:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

Zobrist would be a great utility man

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, they have that much depth at starting pitching.

No, they wouldn’t trade Sonny for Ankiel.

Shields
Kazmir
Garza
Sonny
Jackson
Price
Davis
Niemann
Hellickson

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel plus ??? though?

Ankiel is not worth as much as Sonny but that is why you add something else to the deal. I think our best bargaining chips with the Rays is relief pitching. That seems to be their only weakness of any kind. So any trade with Rays would most likely include Motte or Perez.

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

how about Ankiel

plus Chris Duncan and Adam Kennedy? just kidding…

more like Ank plus Skip to get it done

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not ot mention

Moore and Barnese with premium stuff/stats at the lower levels and McGee making his way back from TJ.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 5:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If Rick isn’t injured or playing when he should be on the DL, those numbers may be underrating Rick by a margin.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agree

before rick got hurt (26 July) he had a .347 OBP and a .543 SLG. Over 650 PA’s, that is 22 runs above average or about 4 wins above replacement, from a CF, in offense alone.

And that is including the roughly 100 PA’s of .500ish OPS in the 9th inning; if he ever gets control of his nerves, or if TLR starts pulling him for a PH in the 9th, his rate stats could be even better than that.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 6:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

add in another year in a limited career that involves hitting, and defense impact that the injuries could have had (I’d love to see a gamelog of -/+) there’s a strong case that Rick could have a boom year if healthy.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 7:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's certainly possible that that's Rick's true talent level.

But many a player has put together a very good half-season never to do it again. The injury helps frame everything with a nice explanatory story, but we don’t really know whether it’s relevant or not. Many stories have failed to come true. All teams and their fans create and tell them.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 7:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's hard to project because there isn't anyone to compare him too

All I know is that his batting eye took a quantum leap forward last year, so in any deal you have to be worried that he hasn’t hit his ceiling yet.

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 7:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it was a catastrophic injury

the guy tried to reach a home run ball and ran full speed into the wall. After that he had a .500ish OPS for the rest of the season.

The only question, IMHO, is if he’ll recover from that injury. Much like Chris Duncan last off-season, we won’t know until spring training.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 7:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that good half argument doesn’t really explain a foundation set when he was called up in ’07.

meaning, just as you can consider it a one year fluke, you have to consider that until that injury he still wasn’t close to his upside.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 7:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

his '07

was similar to his beginning of ’08

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 12:03 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

which hampers the whole “put together a whole half season”

When Rick is healthy, he mashes.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 12:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

turnabout

not to toot my own horn, but…

by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 5:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would love Ank for Sonnastine

This deal would be perfect to me. The Rays get their power-hitting corner outfielder, we get our starter. It’s just icing on the cake that Sonnastine is cost controlled and a lefty. At first I thought the Rays would never accept this deal because of Ank reaching free agency after ‘09. But the more I think about this, unless Ank has a MONSTROUS injury free season, there is probably a high likelihood the Rays could re-sign him. The Rays don’t have the highest payroll, but that would work in their favor. They don’t have any huge contracts on the books so they could afford to spend a little more money. Especially now that they are winning, revenue has the chance to increase.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 8, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That would be a fantastic deal

But it’s so far from reality that it’s best to not think about it.

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey

A man can still dream can’t he?

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 8, 2008 4:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't get the love for Sonnanstine

I am not necessarily disagreeing, but I don’t see anything in his numbers to make me salivate. He looks like a decent pitcher, but I don’t understand why lots of folks think he is THE young pitcher we should go after. What is the allure?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 8, 2008 7:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sonnanstine is a righty

Still, I’d be much more inclined to deal Ankiel than Ludwick. I’m still not sure how we’d win much against lefties with any combo of Duncan, Schu, Ankiel, Mather, Barton, Rasmus in the outfield. I think Mather can do fine, but we need Ludwick out there. Ankiel is just ok vs. lefties and we have other options vs. righties. He can be dealt. He only has 1 year left, and that will limit his trade value a bit, but then we also resist the urge to resign him and pour millions to a position that we don’t need to.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 8, 2008 2:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols and Glaus (and Greene) ain't bad against lefties.

And with a solid pitcher on the mound, you could play near .500 ball against lefties. The Rays survived the lefty-heavy problem ok last year.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Whoops...

I thought I remembered him throwing from the left side in the ALCS…My bad, I should’ve advised B-R before hand to be sure.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 8, 2008 4:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm guessing if Moz could make this happen

it would, but he can’t

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Correct

You are correct, sir.

Yes!

by thepainguy on Dec 8, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm, maybe I meant "a Marcum-like pitcher".

Yeah, that’s the ticket!

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 7:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Home town discount??

I wonder if the Cards will be getting a discount on A.J. Burnett. I’ve heard he wanted to pitch in St.Louis. He might be a good fit with Dave Duncan. Has anyone heard the dollars involved here??

by bigmotors on Dec 8, 2008 2:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

you mean after he took the big money and left us hanging in the breeze last time???

Methinks no…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One more year = one more guaranteed year of $$$

Which is why he took that deal….

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not the point...

The point was that he didn’t give us a hometown discount last time, so why would he do it this time? I wasn’t making a judgment on his character at all…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I never said he's give a hometown discount

I’m saying that your misrepresenting what happened.

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 3:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And I wasn't talking to you -- you stuck your nose into conversation

I’m not misrepresenting what happened either. The Cardinals offered him 4Y$55M, the Jays gave him 5Y$70M that included a players option for the last year.

That is the definition of “taking the money”, regardless of whether he had an extra year or not. He’s getting the same amount of money per year, with $15M more guaranteed on the end of it if he wants it. He took the money instead of giving St. Louis a “hometown discount” like the original poster said he might do this time.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 5:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

When you are commenting in a public comment thread you are talking to everyone.

So if I think your misrepresenting what happened, I’m gonna say so.

The Blue Jays offered a little more money per season, plus one more year. I have a hard time seeing the betrayal that you see.

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 5:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Again

I. Am. Not. Commenting. On. His. Character. Get that? Ok then.

The fact remains that he did leave us swinging in the wind when he signed that deal because there weren’t any other good free agent pitchers for us to go after when his deal was signed. It’s not AJ’s fault, that’s just the way things worked out.

Also, again, the original poster made the inference that he might take a discount to come to St. Louis — I merely responded that he didn’t take a hometown discount last time, so why would he take one in this instance? When you take more money for more years, you are “taking the money”!!!

I’m not saying that I wouldn’t have done the same thing, but the fact remains that he didn’t take a hometown discount on his last contract, he took more money for more years to go somewhere else.

If you don’t understand this, don’t bother replying. I’m not going to argue over your semantics anymore. I’m not misrepresenting anything, only saying that he took a larger contract to go to another team last time, so the chances of him taking less to come to St. Louis probably aren’t very good.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 6:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not arguing the basic premise

But there’s a strong implication there the Burnett is overly greedy and that betrayed he betrayed the Cardinals and their fans and that’s just no true.

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 7:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, but the premise,

that he took the money once and is likely to do it again. Do you actually disagree with that?

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 8:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that's right

nobody “sticks their nose into a conversation” around here. Each conversation belongs to all of us. Aside from that, you guys seem to be quibbling over nothing.

by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 8:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One reason

to forgo the payday is to have a chance to play for a contender, something that was impossible in Toronto.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 5:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why was it impossible?

Toronto is a solid team in a very tough division. They would of won the NL West

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 5:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They are merely solid

in a very tough division. Not enough. The Wild Card is their only bet, really.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 5:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LMAO

Really? So where would you have put the Rays before last season? If you say that you had them winning the AL East you’re LYING!!!!

If Toronto had everything come together like the Rays did, they could have won that division with a rotation led by Halladay, Burnett, and McGowan and an offense led by Wells, Rios, and Rolen.

Anything is possible…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 5:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So your point is...

that the Blue Jays would have had to have absolutely everything come together in a manner similar to the Rays who jumped from worst to first, to win a division.

I’d say a less competitive division with a team that is a perennial contender is a better bet than that.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 7:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

FWIW, jays had a 93-69 pythag last year

That’s a lot better than I thought they were. For some reason I thought their 86-win total was lucky, but it was the other way around.

They very well could have contended, with a bit of luck.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 7:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't all the AL East teams underperform their pythags because they are in the AL East?

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 7:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

But I guess some people want to laugh at this.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bottom line for me:

I see Toronto as the Cubs of the AL East. They just always find a way to lose, even when they have winning seasons. They haven’t had over 90 wins since the early 90s! I’m just sayin… If you had to pick from 5 teams to play for, would you EVER pick Toronto?

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

they can't be the Cubs of the AL east

since they won the world series in the early ’90s.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Dec 8, 2008 11:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough.

They still have a hard time getting into the playoffs.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 11:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What about Padres

of the AL East? Is that better?

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 11:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

but the padres haven't really tried

to flat-out buy a championship yet. They are kind of just hanging out, sipping margaritas, winning games just often enough that most folks remember there’s a stadium in town. Every now and then they win enough games to make the playoffs, and dude, that’s cool, but the cardinals are tough.

I think it’s best just to call the Cubs “the Cubs”, and let everyone laugh at the “inside joke” that everyone but cubs fans share.

BTW, was there supposed to be an apostrophe in that sentence? My gut says yes, but now I’m paranoid.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 11:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Toronto

spent less than us last year, for 12th overall in baseball. Two teams in the AL East spent more than the Jays, and both finished higher in the standings. The Jays are in the top half of payroll, but I wouldn’t say they’re trying to buy a championship.

People act like Tampa Bay came out of nowhere. All off-season, Tampa Bay was what people were talking about. How young they were and how much pitching they had, how we’d like to partner with them in a trade for their awesome prospects. I don’t do predictions, mainly because I don’t care. But to act like the Rays came out of nowhere (when there is A LOT to like about that team, a lot we’d like to emulate, and pitching out the yin-yang) is rather ridiculous. They have clearly turned a corner in terms of overall management.

It’s clear that Toronto underperformed. My point is that I’m not all that surprised. Do I have any rational basis for this opinion? No, I don’t. I just see them as one of those teams that like to lose. Maybe it’s the astroturf.

And you know what? The Jays won’t make the playoffs next year either. Perhaps they’re being cursed for getting rid of most of the blue in their uniforms. :P

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 11:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Upon further reflection,

I do see that Toronto has increased their payroll over the last couple of seasons.

    * 2008: $ 97,973,900
    * 2007: $ 81,942,800
    * 2006: $ 71,915,000
    * 2005: $ 45,719,500
    * 2004: $ 50,017,000
    * 2003: $ 51,269,000
    * 2002: $ 76,864,333
    * 2001: $ 76,896,000
    * 2000: $ 46,363,332

Still, payroll isn’t everything.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 11:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would. The GM obviously can value pitching and fielding.

He has a track record of putting together above-average teams with average payroll.

I call “winning tradition” and “always finds a way to lose” complete BS.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 9, 2008 7:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well, lets see

Boston, 95-67 (0)
TOR, 93-67 (-7)
rays 92-70 (5)
Yanks, 89-73 (+2)
BAL, 73-88 (-5)

2 over, 2 under, one right on.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 7:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just curious...

What is the likelihood that three divisional teams tie for first? Or four, even?

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, not at all.

Competing against tougher competition will cause your team to score fewer runs and allow more. That will lower your Pythag compared to your true talent level.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 7:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How would you know who I picked to win the AL East?

And that has nothing to do with my position on the Blue Jays. Further, I don’t like your tone. I won’t engage you anymore if you insist on being rude just because we disagree.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I find this funny

My tone? You made a statement that a team with a 92 win pythag last year never had a chance to compete for the title. It just so happens that the Rays had a 92 win Pythag last year also, and won the division. I was merely pointing out that things are not always what they seem on the surface. Toronto has a lot of good young players and could probably make a run at things in the next year or two if they sign the right guys and their young players improve and produce. It’s been a little over a decade now since they were the dominant team in the AL East.

That said, only those people looking to make a splash would have picked the Rays to finish 1st in that division at the beginning of last year. The Red Sox had just come off of a World Series title and were the favorites in the division. I remember some guffaws at their pythag from last season because it was so high.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 9, 2008 8:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It seems to me you

were going beyond disagreeing with me. I think your tone was berating and dripping with sarcasm. And like I explained above, I just see the Jays as perennial losers.

by spants on Dec 9, 2008 6:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Jays were probably one of the top, hmm, six teams in MLB last year.

Red Sox
Rays
Cubs
Yankees
Jays
Angels

No particular order.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 7:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But:

Still not able to make the playoffs.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What do you mean "not able"?

They didn’t, that’s true.

But had the Rays not gone all bat-shit crazy, the Jays, by talent, were the second best team in the AL East and would have been the Wild Card.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 8:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fine.

They still didn’t make the playoffs. This is like saying “If the Astros didn’t have a late season surge…” “If only the Cubs had collapsed before the playoffs…” Then perhaps the Cardinals would’ve made the playoffs.

But it doesn’t really matter because we did not make the playoffs. And neither did Toronto. Again.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 8:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just because it already happened,

doesn’t change the fact that it was unlikely to happen.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 8:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What is the likelihood that a team will make the playoffs?

By default, it’s got to lower than the chances that they’re sitting October out.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 11:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That doesn't make any sense either

He had a great year in 2008 in the AL East, and two teams in the AL East are looking for pitching, are contenders every year, and at least one, if not both, would be willing to pay him his quote.

There are also two other perennial contenders with big pocketbooks that are in the market for a pitcher this offseason (Mets and Dodgers) and another one that is trying to sign him now (Atlanta). Why would he sign with the Cardinals for less when he could sign with a contender AND get his 5 years and $70M+, unless all of those other options had been exhausted?

Would you leave a year’s pay and money on the table just to play for a team that currently isn’t the best in it’s own division, much less the best in it’s League.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 5:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That might

be what he’s thinking. And we might not look good on paper, but the Cardinals have had a very successful run this decade. I’m pretty sure the players notice that type of thing.

Besides, no one is a purely rational being. Decisions are made for all sorts of inexplicable reasons. I’m not agreeing, or disagreeing, with any of them.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 5:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, there is the possibility that he HATED playing in Toronto

and now wants to do what he wanted to do all along, but Scottie B talked him out of.

It’s all just speculation anyway.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Dec 8, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Burnett's offer

The Braves reportedly offered 60 mil for 4 years. He’s seeking a fifth year. I’d have to walk away from that deal.

by bigmotors on Dec 8, 2008 2:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The 4Y60M or the 5Y72M??

4Y60M is below his market value…I’d balk at a 5th year, but a 5th year option? Hmmmmmmmmm….

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 3:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the best place to spend money is on a Closer

The market has more closers available than spots open. After the Met’s get a closer the market will severely diminish in teams willing to spend top dollar on a closer. That seems like to me where you can get your best bargain.

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't totally discount the possibility

that Boggs will be a viable starter

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not until he gets that changeup.

I’m quite bullish on Boggs but lefties are ‘handling’ his fastball and absolutely pounding his slurve. If he can get a changeup that’s at least serviceable then he’s at least a #4 starter with upside.

The movement on his fastball is that good.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He has a change up

He has a devastating change up when it is working. He has one of the largest gaps in baseball between his fastball and change up in terms of MPH. I am a Fan of Boggs but needs at least another half season in the minors

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

“when it’s working” which is where I’m leaning to. there was no confidence in it last year at all, he pitched way too many slurves against lefties and just as he was heading back to the minors he went FB heavy

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 3:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to be a douche

But a changeup is one where that everyone’s is devastating when it’s on. The ability to command it and throw it with the same arm speed (FJM alert) consistently is the issue for pretty much everyone, and moreso than most for Boggs last year. His might have especially high potential, but it was very much not fulfilled last year.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 5:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No.

Not all changeups are created equally.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 5:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Equally overall? I didn't say that

But 80% of changeup is throwing it the same as your fastball however it moves/speed within reason obviously. Hamels’ change (a 10.3 mph difference from fastball, 5.7 mph horizontal difference, 4 inch vertical difference) and say Andy Pettitte’s (9.8 mph difference, 6.9 inch horizontal difference, 4.8 inch vertical difference) are nearly identically different in movement/speed from their similar FBs.

Every pitcher can throw a changeup that is comparable to any of the Hamels or Hoffman’s when those things happen to come together——unlike say a slider…very few can ever throw a Lidge slider or a Lincecum 83 mph 8 inch curve—-Hamels can do that over and over whereas Pettitte can’t.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 5:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But isn't the replication

of said changeup the difference? Sure, Boggs can throw a good changeup. Sometimes. Hamels can throw it all the time. So can Johan Santana. Boggs, apparently, cannot.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's literally the exact point of what I'm saying
Hamels can do that over and over whereas Pettitte can’t.

Pettitte and Hamels are throwing a pitch that breaks nearly identically (relative to their fastballs) and has nearly the same velocity difference. The difference between one of the top pitches in baseball and a useable changeup is Hamels’ arm speed and command of the pitch. So when Flim says:

He has a devastating change up when it is working. He has one of the largest gaps in baseball between his fastball and change up in terms of MPH.

That doesn’t necessarily mean his changeup is actually good. Merely having a large velo separation means very little IMO; to me that’s equivalent to saying someone throws 97 therefore they’re a good pitcher.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 8:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Joker, I agree with you on some of what you're saying, but

it’s actually been shown that the speed difference between the FB and change is better the larger it gets, in the same way that runs/100 goes up as a pitcher’s curve moves more laterally or his slider gets less lateral movement. The effective part of the changeup is its similarity in trajectory to the fastball, and the gap between the speeds. Closer trajectory, bigger speed gap=less runs/100.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 8:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's the 20%...

If I recall the Kalk article you’re referencing the r^2s were fairly small and the distribution appeared pretty jumbled to the naked eye.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 10:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So, what, you're disputing that the speed differential actually makes the difference?

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 11:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just read the above posts to figure that one out

Because “80%” means I don’t find speed differential or movement at all important.

Again “a pitcher can throw 97” and “a changeup has a 12 mph speed differential” are just about equally ambiguous.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 11:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's the thing.

You’re plucking 80% out of the air, while you dispute Kalk’s findings that used actual data. Yes, 97 and 12 are ambiguous, hence the statistics.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 11:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey just for fun I actually found the Kalk article for you

R^2 of .23 on speed differential which I’m not even entirely convinced would even be statistically significant. Please take a look at a graph and tell me that you can actually tell whether a changeup is good or bad based on speed differential.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 11:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

But you’ll have to wait and see which relievers fall through. Could even pick up two or three at discounted prices.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder

does VEB get a lot more activity than other team’s blogs? just curious

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Athletics Nation and Lookout Landing (M’s) are both quite heavy as well. As is the Cubs’ blog. We’re probably in the top 5 though.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 3:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yea us

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 8, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

On Sportsnation

it might be one of the Top 5. But just because a blog is on this network doesn’t mean it is considered one of the top ‘official’ unofficial blogs.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 8, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

since he was comparing other team blogs vs VEB I took it as activity here versus other SB blogs.

So I meant top 5 (in terms of activity) on SB nation, so we’re clear.

That aside, I’d rather worry about quality vs quantity. Just trying to answer a question based on how I read it.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 3:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like both

one thing I’m proud of, and I know LB is as well, is how VEB has grown w/o sacrificing quality. It may not be the best blog out there, but we do pretty well (all of us, I mean) and it’s getting larger everyday.

by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 5:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would say top 5 on SB from what I have seen

but I would be curious how the other big team blogs do, VEB is usually considered the best Cards blog so I would like to see it compared to the other “best” team blogs

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 4:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As a Cubs fan...

I would love to see Oliver Perez signed for a very long time, Adam Kennedy traded with salary relief for the acquiring club along with a big name FA signing like Cabrera, Jake Peavy go to you guys instead of us, and various other transactions I’ve seen mentioned.

Load up for ’09, guys! :)

by ge-o-van-y-clap-clap-clapclapclap on Dec 8, 2008 4:04 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

you want us to sign Cabrera

when we already have Khalil Greene?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 4:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

true

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 5:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Dec 8, 2008 11:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oops

I meant to say Hudson. Gotta plug that hole at 2nd!

by ge-o-van-y-clap-clap-clapclapclap on Dec 8, 2008 4:13 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

use reply button

since you guys got Edmonds, won’t it be weird if we sign Wood?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 4:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that would be painful to watch...

I can only imagine what seeing Edmonds in a Cubs uniform was like last year.

by ge-o-van-y-clap-clap-clapclapclap on Dec 8, 2008 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For me it wasn’t too bad to be honest. At first it really sucked, but gunning him out while going for home helped. Then of course it was made a lot better when “his” team ended up being swept right out of the playoffs

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 5:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the move must be either or

Either the Cardinals add a starting pitcher or they add a reliever who can close. Both are not necessary.

With swingmen like Franklin and Thompson already on the roster, there are cheap options aplenty to fill the back end of the rotation and provide insurance. Far better to move Franklin into the swingman role and open up a space for some young talent and payroll dollars for a lefty and/or closer.

by JMedwick on Dec 8, 2008 4:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

really?

I see no reason at all to assume that Franklin and WonderBrad are better as starting options than Perez and Motte are as closing options.

by DanUpBaby on Dec 8, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 5:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

um, the point he was making,

was that we should pursue either closer or good starter fully. Then, once that need is met, franklin and thompson fill in in whichever capacity they are needed.

I think.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 7:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dominican the early favs for the WBC?

ARod just joined the DR team http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3750063

Just imagine having Pujols and ARod back to back…mmmm juicy

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 5:15 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

A-Rod, Pujols, Big Papi

Damn….

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 5:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 5:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's not

But I believe one of his parents were, so that qualifies him to play there…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 5:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

His parents are

he was born in the US but his parents were/are Dominican and as such by WBC rules he is allowed to choose which he wants to compete for. In 2006 he chose DR then chose not to play then ended up on the US team

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 5:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Perfect.....

Something involving Ankiel and Johnson.

Skip
Rasmus
Pujols
Ludwick
Glaus
Greene
Molina
P
Johnson

Where do I sign up?

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Dec 8, 2008 5:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That would be perfect

Clear the way for Colby, and we get an above average cost-controlled 2nd baseman. I would even throw in another B prospect if that’s what it took to get it done.

by iwannarock24 on Dec 8, 2008 5:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he is

He only has 2 years and change of MLB service, has a career OPS of .796 in 1300+ at bats, and would eliminate 1/2 of the revolving door that is our middle infield. And he’s cheap. I think that is worth one year of Rick Ankiel. I love him, but we have to turn our outfield depth into something more than a short term fix. We have a 5-tool center fielder waiting in the wings and one too many lefty hitting outfielders.

by iwannarock24 on Dec 8, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The metrics don't say that

He’s not as good as Kennedy, but he’s around average defensively from the metrics that I’ve seen.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 6:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

UZR has him at -8.4 lifetime

Since Kennedy is only under contract for one year at a cheap price, I think he’s a better option than Ankiel for Johnson. Johnson is going to get expensive soon, and his defense is most likely going to get worse.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/hi-im-average/

Nothing against Johnson because he is a good player, but I think we need another player coming back, or we need to do better with the headliner.

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 7:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Which metrics?

UZR/150: -8.4 runs
RZR: .826 (7th place, .897 is top)
Fielding Bible: Zero votes (22 2Bs received votes)
Inaz TV: -4.9 runs
PMR: 98.25% out conversion ratio

by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 7:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

(I’m not necessarily bagging on Johnson, BTW, just reporting negative defense)

by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 7:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Correcting myself though, I should really consider the possibility that “average” has a negative expectation, although it would surprise me. And if I look at just PMR, for example, 98.25% conversion of expected outs does sound like the definition of average. It’s really the -8.4 UZR that’s surprising me, especially since I understand PMR to include similar data.

by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 7:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

to add one more stat

Dewan’s +/- has him as perfectly average in 2007and one play below average in 2008.

Anyway, the real value from trading for KJ comes from the fact that he’d be on our team for 4 years, through his prime.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 7:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed on the upside. Argument wasn’t against him as a whole, just discussing defense. Tks for the +/- datapoint.

by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 7:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

http://tangotiger.net/scouting/sim2007_7558.html

Tango’s fan scouting has him defensively average too.

by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 7:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And not to belabor the self-discussion, but -4.9 is still within a few plays of whatever. The general negative trend between UZR and Inaz (ZR/RZR-derived) is what caused me to question things.

by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 7:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

one thing to keep in mind

KJ never played 2B in his professional career until about halfway through spring training of 2007. He had some time as a SS in the low minors, but was moved to the outfield at AA in 2004, and didn’t play a single game at 2B in the minor leagues.

Of course this doesn’t explain why he’d be worse in ’08 than ’07. But he could still be learning the position.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 7:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't have a +/- number for him

but he is below average in PMR and Total Value and significantly below average in UZR.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 8, 2008 8:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn't the offense

Coupled with cost controlled status offset any defensive slippage? He’d be expected to deliver offensive performance somewhere between the 20-35% of his position. He’d lock up a position we will need to pay to fill next year anyway, and would do it cheaply. That could free up money to be spent on pitching.

I’d view him as a very significant upgrade.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 8, 2008 6:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

According to Cots

Johnson made $430,000 last year. He has a little over 2 years of MLB service. I believe that means he will be eligible for arbitration after the 2010 season, and he will be a free agent after the 2012 season. Someone correct me if I’m wrong; I’m not 100% sure but I think that’s right.

by iwannarock24 on Dec 8, 2008 7:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

His rotoworld page says arb eligible

Which would make sense since he debuted in 2005

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 7:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But he didnt play every year

He played half the games in 05, none in 06 and all year in 07 and 08, depending on how long he was on the roster in 05, which I don’t know, he could have close to 3 yrs service time. After 09 he will for sure be eligible and this year I could see him as a “super two” possibility, not sure what percentage he ranks in though.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/johnske05.shtml
http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/info/faq.jsp#arbitration

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 9, 2008 7:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it seems to me

that we would be trading a good impact-ish OF for an average 2b (but he is cheap)

I know we control the guy for some years but wouldnt this be hurting the team?

I guess if you could convert Wallace to an OF and have a lineup of

Rasmus
Johnson
Pujols
Luddy
Wallace
Greene (if re signed)
Freese/Craig
Molina
Pitcher

It could work for a couple of years though

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Dec 8, 2008 6:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wallace isn't convertin to the OF

Every report on his defense at 3B is that it is at best below average, probably bad and possibly unplayable due to his range not his hands. And that’s going to convert to the OF? Why do people just totally just ignore these scouting reports?

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 6:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not just that, but there’s also comments on his arm strength (doable, but not as strong as you’d think). That plays directly against the OF argument as well.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 6:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i’d guess that people that haven’t seen wallace just assume that he’s ryan braun 2.0.

by greenback06 on Dec 8, 2008 6:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jack Cust plays in the outfield.

The end.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 7:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

People ignore the reports because jack cust, manny, dunn, dye, etc.

all play the outfield. They just undervalue outfield defense. I’m just quipping, not disagreeing completely.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 8:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was just trying to work those guys into the line up

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Dec 8, 2008 7:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

actually, most of the scouting reports say he's six foot whatever and weighs 240

so clearly he can’t keep up his range at 3d base. That’s different from saying he has no range at all.

Honestly, that’s why AAA exists, to find out whether people can play elsewhere. He’s not likely to come up this year, so I’m sure we’ll actually find out from somebody who watches him play the outfield.

by tom s. on Dec 8, 2008 7:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Johnson:
Marcel +9 runs
Defense -9 runs
Position +2.5 runs
Replacement +20 runs

War ~ 2.25

Ankiel is probably about a 1 higher than that (potentially more) but he’s only controlled for one year. A straight trade between the two might tilt a little in the Cardinals favor. Johnson projects as more than a 1 win upgrade over Kennedy (~ 1 WAR) and the Cardinals probably get average production from Ankiel’s replacement (Rasmus) in order to not lose ground next year.

by azruavatar on Dec 8, 2008 6:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

?

Rasmus, CF
Glaus, 3B
Pujols, 1B
Ludwick, LF
Ankiel, RF
Greene, SS
Molina, C
Kennedy, 2B

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 7:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Schumaker is a platoon

player at the height of his upside. He’s a fourth outfielder at best. Now if he could hit lefties, that would be a different story. But he can’t. And Rasmus will blow him out of water offensively and defensively if given a chance, IMHO.

by iwannarock24 on Dec 8, 2008 7:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He only has 175 scattered MLB PAs against LHP. Were his minor splits bad too?

by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 7:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know

where to find minor league split stats, so I can’t use that to back up my argument. I’m just going off his poor performance vs. LHP this season, albeit in limited PA’s, and TLR’s increased reluctance as the season progressed to play Skip vs. LHP.

by iwannarock24 on Dec 8, 2008 7:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

His BABIP against LHP was absurdly low

but, yeah, I’d play Mather against LHP

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 7:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You misunderstand

The outfield right now is (in some order) Ludwick/Rasmus/Ankiel, not Schumaker/Ankiel/Ludwick with Rasmus trapped in AAA.

If you deal away Ankiel that means Schumaker is his replacement.

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 7:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm talking about Rasmus replacing Ank in center

If Ankiel is traded, Rasmus will be the starting CF on opening day, not Schumaker. Rasmus and Ludwick will play every day in CF and RF (ideally), and some combination of Skip/Mather/Barton/Duncan will platoon in left. So that is why I wouldn’t consider Skip to be Ank’s replacement.

by iwannarock24 on Dec 8, 2008 7:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rasmus has already replaced him in center more or less

It seems like right now the OF is Ludwick/Rasmus/Ankiel. If you subtract Ankiel, he’s going to be replaced mostly be Schumaker (likely in a platoon with Mather or Barton).

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 7:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Right

I understand what you’re saying; I guess I just still have it in my head that TLR will want Rasmus to “earn” his spot as a starter much like Ludwick had to “earn” his spot during the first few months of last year. I’m just not convinced Tony will stick Colby in center and let him play every day if Ank is still here. I think Mo considers our outfield right now to be Ludwick/Rasmus/Ankiel, but I’m just not sure Tony would agree.

by iwannarock24 on Dec 8, 2008 7:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have to agree

I don’t think Rasmus is in the starting outfield plans right now. But that’s a matter of opinion.

by azruavatar on Dec 8, 2008 9:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If Ankiel gets traded,

I’d hope that he’d play. I’d say it would be a 90% chance he’d get a starting job.

by azruavatar on Dec 8, 2008 9:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But

he’s earned it. Of course I jest, Schumaker has no business playing CF. He is a pretty good defensive LF, but a liability in CF. Go Raz!

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 8, 2008 10:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

how is he a liability in CF?

I thought he did ok when he played there?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 12:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

Personally, I think he’s a better centerfielder than Ankiel. Hope my analysis is not off, since I’m sure I’ll know shortly if it was.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 9, 2008 12:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you're right, statistically skip's D was better

though the difference between ank and skip was slight. The significant caveat there is that ankiel played about a month longer in CF than he should have.

by tom s. on Dec 9, 2008 1:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, also I think many people

underestimate Skip’s arm. He can really throw it, albeit not quite like Ank, but he can really throw it.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 9, 2008 1:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i wonder if we didn't have one of the

best team OF defenses in the ML, if you look at ank, skip, and ludwick.

by tom s. on Dec 9, 2008 3:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

By some Metric's

We were below Avg except when Schumaker played left

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2008 3:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Schu's metrics are

universally great in LF and pretty much all below average in CF. He just doesn’t have enough speed to be a CF.

UZR LF: 22.3
UZR CF: -6.8

PMR LF: 115.20
PMR CF: 94.81

Maybe liability is too strong of a word, but he is certainly below average. His arm is also overrated. I can’t quote the numbers right now, but I saw where he was run on quite a bit even though he had a decent assist total.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 9, 2008 7:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, being that he was run on a lot

AND had a lot of assists (10 I think) leads me to believe his arm was under rated as opposed to over rated.

And to address FlimFlam up there, I think we did have a pretty good outfield defense last year but the problem was we hardly ever saw an outfield of Skip, Ank and Lud. Too often Dunc or Lopez or someone else was out there which is going to dramatically lower how good the outfield is. Although, if memory serves me correctly, Mather played a pretty good outfield…..Stav, not so much.

The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.

by Tackle Box on Dec 9, 2008 10:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We are talking about the manager

who put Aaron Miles and Adam Kennedy in the outfield on multiple occasions. There’s some willful ignorance that seems to seep through at time.

by azruavatar on Dec 8, 2008 10:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nick stavinoha

a real-life outfielder, was available on the bench every time one of those guys was used in the outfield, IIRC.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 11:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also,

Lopez played infield while AK was in the OF.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 11:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah,

that was the ulitmate dumb-ass move there.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 9, 2008 7:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nick’s an OF? the few times I seen him in Memphis he sure didn’t look like one (though I agree with what you are implying)

for the most part we were evaluating Lopez + giving Kennedy at bats after stating he wanted a trade.

For all we know, Tony may not have wanted to start them where they were but it could have been a FO call.

Just sayin’

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 11:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i almost made a joke about that

and then didn’t. Still, imagine how he felt sitting on the bench while that was going on.

Probably even more frustrating than Mather’s injury was to him, since Stav was never given the chance to prove himself. O, cruelest fate…

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 11:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Should have put on a Miles jersey and “Tricked the Tony”. Tisk tisk

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 11:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

even worrell was pissed about it.

he figured he should have been called up and stuck in left field given his slugging ability.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Dec 9, 2008 12:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

heh, he may have been a “one hit wonder”, literally

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 12:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

which leads me to believe

the cubs paid TLR off!

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 12:20 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Johnson

Is all about the upside, a few things to keep in mind.

-He is a former first round pick (38)

-Had a career minor league OPS of .828

-Has only had 277 total career games at second base

-Spent much of his time at shortstop in the minors, however arm injury has changed the shape of his career including missing a year.

-Rumor out of atlanta is that bobby cox has tried changing his approach and that has hurt his game.

Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.

by Dave Barry on Dec 8, 2008 7:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why do

you not seeing him better. he’s twenty six, or about to enter his peak years. Most would make an assumption that a player with that track record and pedigree would improve through their peak years.

Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.

by Dave Barry on Dec 8, 2008 7:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hell yeah he is.

At least a couple wins better and under team control for four more years. You know the example I gave earlier with Sonnanstine? Just change his name to Kelly Johnson.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 8:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have thought about this long and hard

and the only way this deal suck is if Ankiel busts out in much the same way JD Drew did in 2004.

Plus, we could always bring him back if we felt like it.

It’s so hard to advocate something like this, but it’s not like three years of Jose Vidro is the return.

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 8:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't be surprised

if Ankiel gets better still… he’s still got some upside with his hitting

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 12:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel was a -10 last year

at a defensive position further to the left on the defensive spectrum. Furthermore, Ankiel’s under contract for only 1 more year. Getting a cost-controlled 2B who’s above-average right now is better than an average, or slightly above-average, RF w/ 1 year left on his deal. It’s not close.

by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 8:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

According to mlbtraderumors

The Cards aren’t interested in the Braves middle infielders. Says they want a starter (pitcher?) back for Ankiel.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 8, 2008 10:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fitting

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Dec 8, 2008 10:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

We’d like Jair Jurrjens, please. Thanks.

by mojowo11 on Dec 8, 2008 10:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Cards likely like Ankiel more than I do.

There’s a good chance they’re not going to send him away for anything but an obvious huge upgrade.

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 11:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 12:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

this is difficult to understand, frankly

I mean, I want pitching, too but to turn down a solid, cost-controlled middle infielder for a league-average OF who’s in his walk year makes no sense. Trade Ankiel for Johnson and sign Randy Johnson and we’ll add probably 4 wins to our total

by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 11:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, take the info for what it is.

This IS the Winter matings after all. Anything that’s even thought gets printed. Tim just funnels it all to us.

Example. Last night it was pretty much a done deal that the White Sox were trading Dye to Cincinnati for Bailey. With Kenny Williams and Walt Jocketty being the two GMs involved, I figured it was true. Then about 30 minutes later, the rumor couldn’t have been more false.

So, the moral of my story? I wouldn’t worry too much about what is getting reported right now. I figure it’s all legit (that someone actually said it) but it’s coming so fast right now he’s kinda got to post it all just to keep up.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 8, 2008 11:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

talk about undervalued

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 12:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Besides David O’Brien no one has mentioned MI as the return player – keeping in mind that he’s the one that had us on Escobar for Luddy earlier this offseason.

With all of the comments of “MI is set for next year now” after their last trade, it seems to be largely speculation that even had the option to turn down a MI as it is.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 11:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It does

seem a little too good to be true.

Another aspect is that after the 09 season, Glaus, Greene and Kennedy are free agents. While not overly important, putting the team in a position to rebuild the majority of the infield and replace a right fielder in one off season seems like a tall task.

Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.

by Dave Barry on Dec 8, 2008 8:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well by then...

at least one of the three 3rd base prospects in the minors should be ready, so thats one less thing to worry about (hopefully)

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Dec 9, 2008 3:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Ankiel/Adam Kennedy – 1yr 5.5m 5-7WAR

SchuMather/Kelly Johnson 3 years arb+arb/league minimum 7+WAR

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 9:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that's about right

You know, if nothing else, this gives us a ton of leverage with negotiations. If Rick really, truly likes playing for STL, Mo could set up a trade like this and then go to Boras and say “look, ATL has offered us a deal we can’t refuse in exchange for our boy Hobbs. We really don’t want to make the trade, but we’re afraid of what you’ll ask for after this season; we’re going to have to make the trade unless you’ll give us a big discount, NOW.”

Something like a 4Y, 36M deal plus whatever he gets in arbitration for this year would do it, I think. if he isn’t willing to commit to something like that, then he should be moved (and I agree, it’d be an old yeller moment for me, too).

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 10:02 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I kind of guesstimated the WARs but either way it's obvious.

Everyone has been saying deal from strength to shore up weakness for so long. This is the definition of that idea.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 11:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They’re pretty set at MI this year from all accounts. If that’s the case then they do have some decent + upside pitchers in the system. You would have to look in the midlevels since they’re not likely to trade anyone higher, and discount Hanson since he looks to be completely hands off.

I’ve always liked Redmond and Venters from the left side would be plausible as well.

I know there’s a lot of people who would like to get Johnson for Rick, but a large part of me would rather deal from areas from glut to add to the pipeline in areas we are hurting. Starter material and LHP of any sort are areas we can use some building, and the Braves have a solid supply and may be willing to part.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 5:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think for Ank

they should give us a back of the rotation starter, a lefty reliever, and a near major league ready front of the rotation starting prospect.

That is the going rate for Atlanta to get a left handed power hitting outfielder that can play all three spots and is one year away from free agency. At least from us right?

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Dec 8, 2008 6:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We'll be keeping Rick then

The reason they’re targeting Rick among the other candidates listed (Hermida, Hart) is that they know it won’t cost as much to get him because he can walk after next year and is a Boras client.

The Braves feel they can win the NL East next year if they can keep their players healthy and add just enough offense around Jones. I don’t think they’re as close as they seem to think that they are, but who am I to tell them where they’re at talent wise?

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 6:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed, that’s way too much. (three pitchers)

I was just looking at it from building more depth at pitching though it may not have direct impact until ’10.

It’s just not often you can trade from glut to someone that has pitching abound and may be willing to part with a piece or two. Though anyone (and they already have) can make the case for 2nd base as well. But when I look at Johnson, I think of who else would we be sending, because I don’t think Rick alone will do it.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 6:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's the deal I have had in mind for awhile too

I don’t like Ludwick for Escobar, but Ankiel for Johnson works fine for me. I imagine they’d want a pitching prospect too just to protect themselves if Ankiel doesn’t resign. That might be an interesting negotiation.

Is Prado their 2B if they made this deal?

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 8, 2008 6:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Johnson

is one of the few people I’d actually wouldn’t mind getting for Ankiel… would ank plus skip be too much/too little?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 6:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

throw in AK

and get a good pitcher too!

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 6:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i would find it hilarious

if we traded ank + skip for KJ, and then the braves put Skip at second base, and he was better than KJ…

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 7:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

heh

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 12:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

now we're talking

I’ll have to look at the numbers better but my gut tells me this is a good deal for the Cards. Sure, I’d rather have a SS or young pitcher, but I’ll take a cost-controlled middle infielder who gets on base.

by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 8:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh yeah

I was commenting on the trade more than the batting order. I don’t care that much about batting order. I’d hit Johnson and Rasmus 1 and 2 or 2 and 1.

by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 8:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rotoworld:
The AJC’s David O’Brien believes Ryan Ludwick-for-Kelly Johnson is on the table if the Braves want to make the trade.
Ludwick was the far more valuable player of the two last season and is still cheap, but it looks like the Braves think Johnson will be the more valuable property going forward. If they were to make the deal, it’d be because they think they’re better off with Martin Prado at second base than with any of their left-field options playing regularly.

If trading Ankiel for Johnson is a bit questionable, then trading Ludwick for him is batshit insane… unless they are throwing in Escobar

by JI on Dec 8, 2008 7:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

on Ludwick straight up for Johnson. We would have to at least get a top pitching prospect another B level prospect as well. But straight up, my vote is a big fat no.

by iwannarock24 on Dec 8, 2008 7:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 12:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 8, 2008 9:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

mlbtraderumors.com

just reported that the marlins and giants are talking a cantu for jonathan sanchez deal…i gotta think we can offer better than that and not seriously hurt our farm system

by VolsnCards5 on Dec 8, 2008 5:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good luck with that.....

I’ve read the Giants SPECIFICALLY want Cantu. Sanchez is possibly available for Cantu. Jorge Cantu, not some other third/first/second baseman. Otherwise, the will probably keep Sanchez.

If Noah Lowery is ready to go, they will probably be trading him.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 8, 2008 6:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Doh...."Otherwise, the will probably keep Sanchez.

This is grammatically incorrect. I apologize. Please don’t hurt me grammar police.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 8, 2008 6:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

why would they specifically want cantu

i mean if its him and only him, then i guess we can’t really do anything with that

but if sanchez is available, sabean would be wise to look past just cantu

by VolsnCards5 on Dec 8, 2008 6:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cantu is the one they want.

Because he plays three infield spots, has a ton of power, and is only 26. He was very good last year, he’s ready to go, and the Giants don’t have much in the way of “proven” young talent. They do have some promising young talent, very good pitching, and they are in the NL West. No one, not even the Giants, are that far out of contending in that division. If they can’t get Cantu, they might look at someone else, but they also wouldn’t throw Sanchez into the trade. It’s not like they are eager to deal him.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 8, 2008 6:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"he plays 3 infield spots"

ROFL. Cantu is probably worse at playing second base than Felipe Lopez. If he isn’t worse, he’s close to it.

Is he really still just 26?

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 8:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like to

use this as an indication of talent. According to all of this, he has actually been worse at third than Miguel Cabrera. I didn’t know that was possible

Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.

by Dave Barry on Dec 8, 2008 8:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Plays (????) 3 infield spots?

He can stand at a few when the coach pencils him in there and doesn’t complain too much. That’s not the same as playing a position.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 9:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

molina????

not gritty enough at 3rd

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 8, 2008 9:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cantu is a statue IMO.....

but he does technically play 3 positions. I didn’t say he played them well.

His real position is hitter……that is why the Giants want him. They’ll take the bad with the good.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 8, 2008 10:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess to be fair

sanchez isn’t all that, but you’d think the giants could find someone willing to give up more than Cantu for him. Even as a hitter, cantu isn’t that good.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 10:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You could find someone willing to give up more than cantu for him.

They’re called the cardinals.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 11:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Who in our farm system is better than Sanchez?

I’d like to trade to get Sanchez because he’s better than all of the pitchers we have in our current farm system, and could come in and be our #5 starter next year.

We could offer a position player that has more value, but as far as pitcher’s go, Sanchez is better than anything we’ve got.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 6:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

uhh

not sure what you meant

i was saying we could offer more than cantu for sanchez…as in, i want to trade for sanchez

by VolsnCards5 on Dec 8, 2008 6:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I misunderstood you...thought you wanted Cantu

Being that we have a hole at second base right now too…

Still, I don’t think that our middle infield options in the minors or major leagues are as good as Cantu. We could offer them a third baseman or outfielder that could play next year in one of those positions, but not a middle infielder.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 6:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i figured they wanted cantu for third

which is why i figured a majore league ready, cost controlled david freese would be a better deal for the giants than cantu

by VolsnCards5 on Dec 8, 2008 6:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sanchez

is very talented, however shoulder stiffness and soreness limited his playing time last season. Just something to keep in mind.

Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.

by Dave Barry on Dec 8, 2008 6:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Trever Miller Guaranteed $500K
According to Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, lefty reliever Trever Miller gets only $500K guaranteed for 2009 from the Cardinals. He’ll need to make 70 appearances to get the additional $1.5MM. Apparently the Cards really didn’t like what they saw in his shoulder, but Miller still wanted to pitch for them.

That sound good to me.

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 6:19 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

heck yes

He’s basically free for next season, unless he’s really, really good and doesn’t get hurt, then they’ll pay him accordingly.

I would say that this bit if news means that we really need to get another lefty for the bullpen though — preferably someone that we can count on since we now have two that are suspect due to injury possibilities.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 6:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and if he’s really really good and doesn’t get hurt..

he’s a steal, even as a LOOGY.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 6:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

er, meaning either way it’s a win win.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 6:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well hell

If they all sign as replacement level salaries, we can afford 3 or 4 on one year deals right? :-)

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 6:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

heh

I don’t know, but I’d rather do a deal such as this than the Clement one. If Miller pitches well till June then blows up and we have depth to cover, he’ll earn his contract. Rather look at the upside of this than get into the Fuentes debacle, personally.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 6:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I do like the idea of getting a guy who just wants to play

and who wants to specifically play for us.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Dec 8, 2008 6:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 12:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

To put that in perspective

- Villone was in 74 games last year
- Randy Flores was in 43 games

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 6:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wish it wasn’t

I’ve made a case for continuing to go for Escobar in a couple of other threads, so I won’t rehash it all here. But I will say that Greene being on our team should be considered a fall back, or a chip if Escobar is attainable. If he’s avail, you have to go after him, regardless of Greene.

Greene has enough value we’ll get something for him with someone else, hopefully in an area where we don’t have much in the pipeline, or he can be sent to the Braves as a stop gap solution.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 8:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if (big if, I know) Rick for Escobar creates any interest on the Braves side and they have any reservations about who to fill SS for ’09, Greene is an asset in that scenario.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 8:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Amend

Braves middle infielder

(I’ll say that only to see we’ve acquired Betancourt.)

by azruavatar on Dec 8, 2008 9:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You said AK!

I thought you meant Kennedy. Dammit FlimtotheFlam!

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

so did I

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 12:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't Atlanta

Just trade away their top shortstop prospect for Javier Vazquez? If they traded Yunel for Ank, Who would they have to replace him now that Lillibridge is gone? Seems pretty unlikely. Oh well, my toes are crossed.

by lunchboxbomb on Dec 8, 2008 9:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

they may sign Furcal

and I don’t see them trading Escobar for Ankiel. Mo should be arrested if he pulls that off. Johnson for Ankiel, on the other hand…we would still probably have to toss in a AA prospect or something but it’d be worth it.

by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 9:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Posturing by MO,

to increase the appearance of value, or more likely, bullcrap rumors.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 11:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If you were the Padres

would you consider Jason Marquis, Angel Guzman, J.A. Happ, Chris Coste (plus maybe one or two more players) for Jake Peavy to be a good haul?

Nah, I didn’t either.

If they actually agree to that, the rest of the league owners should protest like I can do in my fantasy football league.

Oh, and this is all coming from MLBtraderumors. They’re also suggesting the Phillies would get Mark DeRosa and that they’ve had interest in him. Why? Are they that concerned about Utley? Because the only spot he could play on that team is either third or utility. Of course, from their stand-point, it’d be Happ and Coste for DeRosa which is not bad. But, I don’t know why you’d want to help facilitate a trade of Peavy to one of your two or three biggest opponents in defending your title all so you can get Mark DeRosa.

Of course the Orioles may still want in since they’re desperate to send Garret Olson to San Diego for Ronny Cedeno or some nonsense.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 8, 2008 10:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The Cubs would get to shed Marquis’ ~10M 2009? Man.

by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 10:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Marquis: 9.875M, and if I were a Cub I’d be cheering to see him go.
DeRosa: 5.5M, and Fontenot is there to take his starting position.
Guzman: league minimum so far, but that might be his worth.

2009: Zambrano, Peavy, Harden, Dempster, and Lily with a REDUCTION in payroll.

by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 11:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, that doesn't make sense at all for the friars

if they’re trying to shed payroll.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Dec 9, 2008 12:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

derosa to philly to play 3B makes sense

that package for peavy, no way. Why in the world would the padres take that deal? They’d be INCREASING salary in ’09!

Derosa is going to drop back to an OBP-heavy 100ish OPS+ range again next year, imho, based on his huge number of lucky home runs, but that’s still a lot better than what Feliz did last year, esp given feliz’s huge dropoff in defense last year.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 10:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure what it'd take to help the Padres

but it’s been rumored the Cubs are willing to eat 4 million of Marquis’ contract. (man I hope i got that apostrophe right).

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 8, 2008 11:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ha ha

You got both of them right!

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 11:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hell, I didn't even realize the one in my subject line.

I must be that good at ‘em. (and I’m pretty sure I got that one right too, even though it’s slang).

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 8, 2008 11:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually

I didn’t see that one. You have three. All are correct, even the slang. You, sir, are an apostrophe wizard.

by spants on Dec 8, 2008 11:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I've always considered myself proficient with the apostrophe

now, commas are a totally different story. My dyslexia can handle apostrophes fine, but I start to shake when I know I need to use a comma somewhere.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 9, 2008 12:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yikes!

How are they going to keep track of that?

I hope the Cubs trade Ronnie Cedeno to someone. I knd of like his skill set and would like to see how he’d do with a team that would actually use him. While I fully realize he might not be good enough, it seems to me with the shortage of middle infielders that someone would be willing to stick him out there and see what he’d do with some sustained playing time.

The Cubs need Mark DeRosa a lot more than they realize. That kind of bat and versatility isn’t easy to find.

Prediction: Peavy stays with the Padres until July……

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 8, 2008 10:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

Why would the cubs want to trade someone versatile, who is actually playing as well as his contract dictates that he should?

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 11:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Utley is likely out till June to start and Pedro Feliz is their 3B

That Cubs’ package would be a fucking joke. Hell, Marquis is making only a little more an a million less than Peavy next season.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 11:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I refuse to open the Greene thread to read comment #804

It could be the secret to life and I refuse to read that comment.

by azruavatar on Dec 8, 2008 11:23 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

it's most likely a LOL

or a +1. Good god, how do you read an 800 post thread and come away from it unable to post anything other than a +1?

Eh, I clicked it and no, it wasn’t a +1. It was actually a one-line reply to my question about why Adam Jones was moved from SS. Didn’t answer my question (yeah, he was bad at SS, as a frigging 18yo at A ball!!!) but at least it wasn’t a +1.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 11:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

last time I tried to load that thread

it got cut off about 2/3 of the way down

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 12:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Winter Meeting Update

P-D has a Winter Meeting update

Notes

  • Kennedy’s lack of trade options means we’re not looking at signing Lopez (yay!)
  • Mo never looked into AJ – long term would handicap future payrolls
  • Talked to teams and free agents, considers it a continuation of talks he’s been having (so past trade rumor partners may still have active conversations).

Could be worse I suppose.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 11:25 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

“Mozeliak said the pitcher he’s after could be a starter or, if the opportunity is there, a closer.”

If the rumors are true and we’re talking to the Braves about a pitcher, who qualifies?

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 11:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no, but smoltz is a free agent.

that’s not happening but it’d be damn cool.

by greenback06 on Dec 8, 2008 11:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

but he won't be ready till mis-season

will he?

if he was available in April that would be very cool.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 11:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Then we could thank him personally for that performance against the Astros.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 9, 2008 1:00 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That’s what I thought (though they do have some solid depth in AA).

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 11:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

“Mo never looked into AJ – long term would handicap future payrolls”

But Lohse didn’t do this? I don’t hate the Lohse move, but it seems totally incongruous with everything that comes out of the FO since then.

by azruavatar on Dec 8, 2008 11:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll say this

Burnett would’ve made more sense than Lohse. His upside would’ve been worth the extra year.

by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 11:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Unless his injury history plays out. All we need is two Carps. Lohse at least has durability, even without the upside. Trying to play devil’s advocate, since I generally agree.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 11:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

;)

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 9, 2008 12:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

eh, effing hate is too strong for me

1 year, a couple million per less for Kyle. Not the upside of AJ, but more dependable, a tad younger; almost garunteed to get more innings out of him.

I’m pretty meh on both now.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Dec 9, 2008 12:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

An extra year, yeah...

But the extra few million for each of those years? With his history?

I was an advocate for trading for AJ last season to have a stud down the stretch and get an extra draft pick if an extension couldn’t be reached and he went the fre agent route… but a 5/65-ish for him scares the proverbial pants of off me.

(I’m not wearing any pants.)

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Dec 9, 2008 12:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree

and after the season isnt almost taken for granted that Glaus will be gone (with like 11+mil) and we would plug a prospect in?

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Dec 9, 2008 4:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's the plan, I imagine

Glaus will bring a nice draft pick, hopefully. Freese, Wallace, and Craig can battle to the death for the spot.

by mojowo11 on Dec 9, 2008 4:20 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it may not be flashy

but it’s the truth

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 12:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Deal Jesus, there has to be a better way to fine bullpen help.

Rosenthal

2:11 a.m. — Cards searching for bullpen help

St. Louis is trying to turn its abundance of outfielders into bullpen help. In addition to talking to Atlanta about outfielder Rick Ankiel, the Cardinals have talked to Philadelphia. The Phillies, who are unlikely to bring back Pat Burrell, would like a left-handed bat. The Cardinals have Ankiel and Skip Schumaker for that need. The Cardinals need a top-flight reliever in return.—Gerry Fraley

1:56 a.m. — Braves, Cardinals in talks

The Braves indeed talked to the Cardinals about outfielder Rick Ankiel, but the conversations stalled when the Cardinals asked for left-handed reliever Mike Gonzalez. Both Ankiel and Gonzalez are eligible for free agency after next season, but the Braves are reluctant to touch the back end of their bullpen, which they view as a potential strength.

The teams also discussed a lesser deal involving a possible exchange of Braves reliever Blaine Boyer and Cardinals outfielder Joe Mather, but those talks also failed to progress.

by JI on Dec 9, 2008 2:35 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

ank for putz, okay. ank for gonzalez?

gonzalez had a reverse split era of 10.80 against lefties. We could make izzy our leftie specialist. Hell, we could just bring back flores and get that.

boyer has a lifetime era of 5.06.

What do either of these guys give us that we couldn’t get by putting aaron miles in the bullpen full effing time? and why look at right handed relievers like boyer at all?

and i have no interest in anybody in the phillies bullpen. if they want to send happ our way, okay.

by tom s. on Dec 9, 2008 3:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

why dont the Cards just decide to spend a little extra money in FA?

since its obvious that teams want to try to rape us in trades

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Dec 9, 2008 4:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you Jealousblues

Trying to stay positive but I just can’t shake this feeling that the team really doesn’t have much of a plan are just seeing what they can trade right now to try and put a patch on a problem area. Sorry but I have to say it, we are a LONG ways off from competing with the Cubs for the division right now. I guess it’s just our turn to be runners up for awhile. We had our great run….but I think I need to get used to the “tredding water” mindframe that the team is in now. Maybe it’s just time to just enoy watching the games and not worrying about getting to the playoffs. We have our championship…I think DeWitt is satisified with that. I guess I should try to feel the same. I’m still going to root for the guys anyways and hope that a little magic might happen in what is probably Tony’s last season as manager.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 9, 2008 4:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

a LONG way

when we’ll probably out-hit them and have better defense, and perhaps a better bullpen?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd like to have Ryan Madson

But I think that right-handed relief isn’t our huge problem right now.

Romero is nice, but probably more expensive than is ideal. Definitely not worth Ankiel.

by mojowo11 on Dec 9, 2008 4:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have interest in most of the Phillies bullpen

I’d be looking to deal for Lidge, Madson, Romero, Durbin, or Happ. Any of those guys, but especially Romero, would help the Cardinals out in the pen. All of them are better than anyone we currently have

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 9, 2008 9:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ugh

no deals with the braves unless they involve jair jurjens or kelly johnson please

by VolsnCards5 on Dec 9, 2008 7:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Add Escobar and Hanson to that list...

but I don’t think the deal is happening for any of those guys.

by BustaCard on Dec 9, 2008 9:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Repeat with me.

We don’t need more relievers. Do not trade a good outfielder for a fricking relief pitcher.

I’m assuming this is just speculation with little basis in fact.

by azruavatar on Dec 9, 2008 8:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exception:

I’d be happy to trade a good outfielder for a young Mariano Rivera, or soemthing like that. But guys like that don’t go up on the trading block, anyway.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Dec 9, 2008 6:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mather for Boyer?

That one must have been generated at the bar last night as a practical joke- should read “The teams also discussed a lesser deal involving a possible exchange of Braves reliever Blaine Boyer and Cardinals outfielder Joe Mather- then the Cardinal’s front office sobered up, collectively, with the thought of trading a promising young OFer for a guy who wouldn’t even make the regular season roster.” Where do they get this stuff?

by BustaCard on Dec 9, 2008 9:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I got all excited

when i saw the blurb about us and the talking to the Braves about trading Ankiel, but I was thinking (as I’m sure the rest of were too) that it would be Kelly Johnson for Ankiel. But Mike Gonzalez? Seriously? Surely we can at least get a serviceable 4th or 5th starter for him, right? IMHO, 1 year of Ankiel for 1 year of Mike Gonzalez is an AWFUL deal. And I just know that if we make that deal that Rick will actually stay healthy and hit 35 homeruns or so next season. Just say no Mo, please, for the love of god.

by iwannarock24 on Dec 9, 2008 3:29 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good god

I hope Rosenthal is an idiot, and I think he may be, because I’m not sure if I’m gonna be able to face the world tomorrow if I wake up and one of these outfielder for reliever trades is a done deal.

by iwannarock24 on Dec 9, 2008 4:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For what it's worth

Rosenthal was reporting earlier today that the Cards were “serious” about Burnett. Later, Mo told the P-D that they never even considered Burnett because his contract length demands were too long. So Rosenthal, while a good reporter, isn’t exactly spot-on all the time either.

by mojowo11 on Dec 9, 2008 4:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

people always say

“rosenthal is a good reporter” and “reosenthal is usually accurate”, or whatever, any time a wild-ass rumor is thrown out, but I can’t remember a single instance of him ever scooping the mainstream on a trade rumor.

I really think GM’s are toying with him, trying to see who can get him to report the most outlandish thing…

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 9, 2008 12:28 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

ken's

been off quite a bit so far during the winter meetings to be fair.

both of those deals are horrid, I’ll take my chances on rick being healthy – thanks.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 6:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Finally...

rumors of the Jays and Cards discussing a deal. They need left handed, power hitting outfielders/DH and we need LHRP. Duncan for Downs? That would be a steal. Ankiel for Ryan? They have some nice SP as well and a stable of lefties in the minors.

by BustaCard on Dec 9, 2008 10:04 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

nobody will take Duncan

he had a weird surgery

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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