Winter Meetings: The Cardinals Go Name-Brand Shopping
Interesting stuff in Joe Strauss's big Winter Meetings piece today. Among other things:
- Jake Peavy? Jake Peavy!? This piece seems to take for granted the idea that Moz and the Cardinals were in on Peavy as recently as two days ago, which is really bizarre. There's been almost no mention of acquiring Peavy at all, outside of drivetime sports talk shows, since the most preliminary discussions began, and now Joe Strauss is writing as though he's giving us Peavy-Watch, Day 50. Was there some big organizational groundswell of support for the move that rose and fell over the course of forty-eight hours, or what? Whatever the reasoning behind Peavy's sudden return to the P-D front page, I'm happy to learn, once again, that the Cardinals don't plan on making Colby Rasmus available.
- So I guess Adam Kennedy might remain a Cardinal, after all. The recent introduction of UZR, Mitchel Lichtman's intermittently available defensive stat, onto the Fangraphs player cards makes me a little happier about that possibility. According to UZR Kennedy is, for his career, an average of nearly ten runs a season better than the average second baseman, which makes his 2008 defensive output, according to some statistics among the best in the league, a little easier to stomach. It's still probably a fluke, to some degree, but UZR gives him a high peak from 2003 to 2005. I don't think Kennedy is a very reliable option at second, needing both to repeat an extraordinary defensive season and stay perched on the edge of usefulness on offense just to remain an average player, but when stacked up with the Cardinals' back-of-the-rotation options he seems positively steady.
- Bonus: Can you find the weird verb repetition in the article that made me scroll back up and reread twice?
- Most useful for Hot Stove League discussion: a list of possible candidates for the Cardinals' last free agent dimes.
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522 comments
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Comments
I did wonder after Loop was not offered arb if part of the rationale
was the already rightie-heavy rotation (and, for that matter, bullpen). Oli Perez & Randy Wolf & Co. make sense on that level.
by tom s. on Dec 8, 2008 5:52 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
or the Unit
for that matter
I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.
by _pistol_ on Dec 8, 2008 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like the Cubs will get Peavy
Sounds like Mo didn’t want to get in the way of the Cubs spending machine. It’s always good to do favors for the teams above us. I’m glad Mo did his part in not getting Peavy, I mean why try to sabotage the Cubs??. I wonder how good their rotation will be next season. Probably not as good as they are on paper. But I am glad Rasmus will finally get to show his stuff for us.
I’m so happy we are going to keep Kennedy. It’s going to be great to see him play everyday. Can’t wait to see him become the offensive machine we know he can be. I am still amazed other teams weren’t lined up for his services. I wonder if Mo is going to try and re-sign him for a few more years. This guy is money!!
I guess next on Mo’s agenda will be re-signing Izzy….let’s hope. It will be great to see him get his 300th save here. I can’t wait!!!
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 8, 2008 5:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I thought the Cubs-Peavy talks were on Life Support
the last thing I read was that deal was all but dead
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 8:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's hoping
You are wrong Hugo, I would love to see Peavy in Cardinal Red. I thought the talks were dead as well, but I’ve always been overly optimistic
"Wherever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai
by brik on Dec 8, 2008 8:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How am I wrong?
Color me confused but I never said I wouldn’t like to see him as a Cardinal….and I heard that it was dead, again not something I can be wrong on
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 8:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Now that I understand you ;)
Why do you want me to be wrong? Why would you want the Cubs – Peavy deal to be alive and well if you want him to be a Cardinal?
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 8:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I misunderstood
I thought the Peavy deal was for the Redbirds…
"Wherever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai
by brik on Dec 8, 2008 8:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
According to overnight news reports,
the Cub’s owners (Chicago Herald Tribune) is expected to file for bankruptcy as early as sometime this week. Hardly a time to be going after a high priced free agent player.
by ridgesee on Dec 8, 2008 9:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tribune Company
Is filing for bankruptcy? I knew that The Herald was in real trouble, but I wasn’t aware that the entire company was in that bad of shape. If that’s the case, how does Zell not start looking at selling each piece since he’s going to have to reorganize the entire company’s debt anyway?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yup
they are filing for bankruptcy
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
is it wrong that there's a part of me that kind of wants the cubs to go through a season
of that disaster arrangement where the Expos were owned by the rest of MLB? Just one season of it but..
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 8, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The cubs franchise is not part of the bankruptcy filing
so I don’t think this will effect any moves they make. It will probably make the sale of the team speed up some though.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 8, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I thought...
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i meant that for the guy who loves kennedy, and izzy!!
by vitaminjay on Dec 8, 2008 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You, my friend,
are horrendously out of line. You, my friend, obviously haven’t yet availed yourself of the community guidelines. We like new members here and like that our membership is growing. However, we also expect that you will maintain some degree of fundamental respect for the other members. The “you are retarded” stuff should be saved for the junior high locker room wall or the p-d boards.
by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 12:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
additionally,
it appears vitaminjay’s sarcasm-o-tron is broken. KY’s offering was dripping with it.
by meat on Dec 8, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i was just about to say the same thing, and your comment popped up. those are some crappy vitamins.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
by adiueordie on Dec 8, 2008 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was dripping pretty thick
Woke up a little cranky this morning and after reading the news about Kennedy and Peavy to some extent, I couldn’t help myself. I hate to sound negative all the time, and I’m not really much of a negative person, but my hatred for the Cubs gets the best of me, and I just don’t feel like we are trying to compete with them. I know the Cards don’t have the same financial resources that the Cubs do, but the way we are going about “trying” to compete for the Central is rubbing me the wrong way. I guess I am just tired of the Cards “tredding water” and not learning from the mistakes of the past two seasons (Kennedy, Izzy). The off season is not over so I need to be more positive I guess.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 8, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I must admit
that your post made me think, “Who peed in his Cheerios this morning?”
by cardsgirl95 on Dec 8, 2008 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I tend to agree
I think the plan was to rebuild for 2009, and they would spend to have a real contender… but I think the Cubbies spending spree has changed that.
I think now they just arnt going to add payroll and hope the kids can help and we catch lightning (ala 2006 or the Phillies this year).
I think now they are content to wait another couple of years until the Cubbies are crippled by their payroll.
I just hope Albert sticks around/doesnt get hurt in the meantime, while we are treading water.
I know they keep saying they will add payroll “for the right player” but a HanRam in his prime or a young ace pitcher isnt going to hit FA and decide to just give us enough of a deal that we actually try for them.
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Dec 8, 2008 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't bet on Adam Kennedy being here in 2009
The job this winter is to make Adam Kennedy look as attractive as possible so another team can be fooled in to trading something quasi-substantial for him to be their starting 2B. Exposing him for the complete @$$ he really is this winter will only bring back a cipher on the return end of the deal. I can’t imagine the disgruntled 2B being welcomed back with opened arms next year in the clubhouse. Kennedy had a bit of a rebound year in 2008 against a disastrous 2007.
Derek Lowe would be a great fit but supposedly he has his heart set on 7 years 100mil + from Boston. Lowe will probably be a fallback option for a big market club that fails to land a primary target. He would look great pitching here next year but don’t count on it.
Pettite won’t pitch in STL unless he is blown away with an offer that blows away NYY or LAD, which I hope won’t happen. MLB.com linked the Cards yesterday as having interest in him.
I think Jon Garland might be the best FA SP fit. He would be perfect to compete with Piniero for the last rotation spot or in case Wellemeyer falls apart. Despite a 4.90 ERA last year, he did go 14 – 10. He seems to be overlooked by most this offseason and I can see him being picked up in a Loshe-type style this offseason.
Penny did go 16 – 4 in 2007, which is quite recent, so if he comes cheaply enough, he should be jumped on. At this point Randy Wolf should probably be avoided at all costs, as it seems he is seeking a 4 year deal. Oliver Perez might wind up being another fallback for a big market team like LAA or LAD, that fails to land Sabathia, Burnett, Sheets, or Lowe.
I would probably satisfy myself with picking up Garland this offseason or acquiring Cabrera from Baltimore to round out the rotation and force Piniero to compete for his slot. I would look at signing Juan Cruz to compete for CL. Either that or hope that Fuentes/Wood can be had for a bargian because NYM signed K-ROD and MIL/DET/CLE couldn’t/wouldn’t sign a closer.
The key to STL getting one of the legit closers is wether or not K-ROD resigns with Anaheim. If K-ROD stays in LAA, the Mets will be forced to choose between Fuentes and Wood, with MIlwaukee signing the other. Then Detroit, predictably, will sign Hoffman to close(with their fetish for an emasculated bullpen), leaving Cleveland and Stl to wage a bidding war for Juan Cruz, which Cleveland will win.
Model 1:
LAA: Arredondo
NYM: Rodriguez
MIL: Fuentes/Wood
CLE: Fuentes/Wood
DET: Hoffman
STL: Cruz
MODEL 2
LAA: K-ROD
NYM: Fuentes/Wood
MIL: Fuentes/Wood
DET: Hoffman
CLE:Cruz
STL: NONE
by Czechguardsman on Dec 8, 2008 6:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I am pretty much sold on him coming back
Baring something completely off the wall he is coming back I just don’t see him moving
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 8:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
another sleeper free agent pitcher?
…Braden Looper. Maybe we’ll sign him before ST in a Lohse type deal.
by E-Dizzle on Dec 8, 2008 8:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Garland?
Garland is bad. Plain and simple. He doesn’t walk anyone, but he also doesn’t strike anyone out, and that K rate is plummetting. That is a bad sign. He’s never had a FIP below 4.22, and that is going in the wrong direction too.
To be honest, I don’t care what his W/L record was. That doesn’t matter at all because it’s a context-specific stat. Guys who pitch for good teams will generally have more wins, and when you have a good bullpen backing you up you’ll win more games too b/c they won’t blow as many games after you’ve left.
The Cards would be best served ignoring anyone’s W/L and paying attention to more useful metrics such as K and BB rate, FIP, LD/GB/FB %, and maybe even pitch F/X data.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for writing that
and saving me the time =]
by FunkeeC on Dec 8, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lowe is going...
…to be 36 years old next June. Not even the Red Sox would sign him to a 7-year deal. That would be insane.
by sabertooth5185 on Dec 8, 2008 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Win/Loss record evaluation................eeeew
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Um, evidence please.
This reads like Tim Haudricourt.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
CARDS interested in Burnett
I went over to MSN FOX sports and they have a huge Rosenthal article posted on how the Cardinals are now serious players for AJ Burnett and further down in the article in the Cards are seriously interested in Putz.
Burnett could be quite the Risk. I don’t see it happening.
by Czechguardsman on Dec 8, 2008 6:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
shocking
Both those guys would cost serious dollars and would represent a sea change in organizational philosophy. Rosenthal is a solid reporter, but I’ll believe it when I see it.
by 10worldchamps on Dec 8, 2008 9:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see how the Cards
pony up a big long-term contract for Burnett while weighted down with the Carpenter contract. Can we really take on two huge contracts for starting pitchers plagued with injuries?
by jjray on Dec 8, 2008 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
unless they are hiding a boatload of money...
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And of course, Wainwright's salary isn't going down...
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 8, 2008 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They were in hard on Burnett last time he was a FA
I was expecting this.
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Burnett
is too much – he’s 32 and wants a 5 yr deal.
WALK AWAY MO. WALK AWAY.
I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck
by bukowski on Dec 8, 2008 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Putz...
….wouldn’t be a bad guy to obtain if the Cards are hellbent on getting a “proven” closer. He’s only guaranteed one year on his current deal ($5M) with an option for 2010 ($8.6M).
by sabertooth5185 on Dec 8, 2008 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Verb: retain
Just guessing though. The only stylistic choice that bothered me from that article was the use of ‘however’ to start a sentence. I’ve never liked that.
by azruavatar on Dec 8, 2008 7:55 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Retain, retained, retaining
Nice vocab choices there, Joe Strauss. Maybe VEB should get together and buy Joe a thesaurus for Christmas. :)
by cardsgirl95 on Dec 8, 2008 9:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
heh
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
old school
never start a sentence with a conjunction
keep the faith az
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 8, 2008 10:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Grammar police!!!
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
by erik on Dec 8, 2008 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But
‘however’ isn’t a conjunction…
"so if you can’t understand what someone else is saying why don’t you just shut up about it instead of being a jerk-off?"
"i’d challenge you to offer me alternatives which would convey the same level of meaning without being even more wordy and verbose."
by baw on Dec 8, 2008 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Conjunction, junction...
…what’s your function?
Yeah, I just went there…I am now going to slink back into my corner and question all of the steps of my life that led me to this point…
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There never was such a rule.
And there never will be.
But “however” is not a conjunction.
And: as long as we’re on the subject, don’t put a comma after a conjunction unless it’s separated from its following conjunct clause by a qualifying clause. If your prosody calls, as here, for an emphatic pause, use a colon.
by alberich on Dec 8, 2008 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa there.
I’d rather see people misuse the comma than the colon or semi-colon. Further, I don’t agree with you on the matter of colons, which should only be used when listing. (The above usage is iffy. A comma could be used properly there.) Semi-colons are used to separate two related, complete clauses. Any other use makes me cringe.
There’s already a guy on here that misuses apostrophes to a maddening degree. Let’s not get people involved in misusing other punctuation.
Lastly, none of us are great writers. As long as one clearly explains oneself, there should be no problem. This is a blog, after all. I’d say that most of the comments here are of fairly high writing quality when compared to the typical sports-related message board.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One last thing.
With exception to the punctuation rules, I think many rules of language are meant to be broken. The conversational tone to many comments allows people to write in their speaking voice. Some posts require analysis, and those posts require a more formal writing style.
My one pet peeve, again, is apostrophes. Nearly every team ends with an “s.” Examples: Cubs, Cardinals, Braves, Yankees. Two exceptions are the Red Sox and the White Sox. In any case, when one is discussing these teams in terms of possession, one should not insert an apostrophe between the next-to-last letter and the “s.” What you do is this: Cubs’, Cardinals’, Braves’, Yankees’.
“The Cardinals’ payroll is expected to hover around 100 million dollars.” A case could be made for not using the apostrophe there at all. It should never look like this: Cardinal’s. That is not the team name. All sports teams are treated as plural proper nouns. “The Cardinals have decided to retain Adam Kennedy for the 2009 season.”
The only team with a truly unique situation are the A’s. The name has an apostrophe in it. There is really no reason for the apostrophe, other than the possibility that the owners wanted to ensure the nickname was pronounced correctly. In any case, being a sportswriter for the A’s would give me fits.
“The Cubs are being sold.” Not the Cub’s or Cubs’.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And your grammar knowledge comes up a bit short...
A’s has an apostrophe because any acronym gets one, the acronym standing for athletics. So do years. The 1980’s, for example.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Both ways
are acceptable. I’d read an article about the history of the “A-apostrophe-s” situation, and there was an internal struggle about whether or not to use the apostrophe. Besides, it is a common mis-usage of the apostrophe. It’s so common that it has become acceptable.
I don’t think that my grammar knowledge comes up short.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the acronym situation is one where a standing definition of correct was overrun by misinterpretation up to the point of public tolerance. Doesn’t really stand up in literal arguments, IMO :)
by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 7:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So,
you prefer the apostrophe-less method?
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For acronyms, yes. That was the part of this conversation that caught my eye.
by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 10:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
(and years – 1980s or ‘80s, not 1980’s or 80’s)
by astrostl on Dec 8, 2008 10:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your knowledge did come up short,
in that instead of giving the actual reason for the apostrophe, you made one up. Nothing personal.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 8:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I suggested
it might be a possibility. It is personal when you’re acting like I just made shit up. If anything, this has more to do with my lack of knowledge of A’s history than it does any shortcoming in grammar knowledge.
Isn’t “As” a word already? If you were an owner, wouldn’t you want to make sure your team name was correctly pronounced it? My explanation is highly plausible, whether you think I’m making it all up or not. The apostrophe was added to clarify the pronunciation of the word.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 8:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I failed to mention
that this is a fairly standard (journalistic/academic) editing issue. 1980s becomes ‘80s, not 80’s.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I looked in some text books
and the Chicago Manual of Style and MLA do not allow apostrophes to be used in acronyms/initialisms EXCEPT when leaving it out causes confusion. Such as the “A’s” / “As” example.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
However, there are of course the Stanford Cardinal, Tulane Green Wave, and Alabama Crimson Tide to consider. And why are the Reds and Browns plural? Wait, I started that with a conjunction.
What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray
by Tupelo on Dec 8, 2008 7:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Those are college teams.
Neither here nor there. And I don’t mind sentences that start with a conjunction.
The Reds were inspired by a team named the Red Stockings, who shortened their nickname to Reds. (Did you know the current Reds were briefly called the Redlegs in the late 50s in order to combat the association with communism?) I’m assuming the Reds and Browns are referring to the color of the uniforms. Rather than saying “Redshirts,” or whatever, they just nicknamed the teams the Reds and Browns. Though it is an usual word, in that it’s not typically plural, it still requires no apostrophe,
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
however is a conjunctive adverb, which functions as a sort of special type of conjunction. It can been inserted between two independent clauses to connect them. A semi colon would be in front, and it would be followed by a comma. The instinctive aversion to using it to start a sentence probably comes from the fact that it is typically used to connect ideas the way a traditional conjunction does; however, using conjunctive adverbs to begin a sentence is grammatically correct since they are also adverbs as well. Think of conjunctive adverbs as Aaron Miles. They play all over ;)
mel
by mel1975 on Dec 8, 2008 7:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If that is the case
then TLR probably uses conjuctive adverbs too frequently and in inappropriate situations.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Dec 8, 2008 7:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, the "rule"
against using conjunctions and conjunctives to begin sentences is not a rule: It’s simply a lazy way for grade-school english teachers to avoid having to correct as many sentence fragments.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or to simplify the teaching.
I find that I am often un-teaching a lot of “rules” made to simplify teaching to students at lower levels. This is true with items like “paragraphs have to have 8-10 sentences” or “never use ‘you’ in your writing”, or as is the case in my building, a teacher who disallows the use of any be verb. ever. English is an adventure to be sure.
mel
by mel1975 on Dec 8, 2008 9:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
azru wins the dinette set
I’ll admit I’m a long-time member of the start-with-a-conjunction club, although I’ll usually rephrase it if I spend any time thinking about the sentence.
by DanUpBaby on Dec 8, 2008 12:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone else hear Moz on KSDK last night?
I was half asleep but on Sports Talk they had a live phone interview with Moz last night. Frank asked the standard questions of “is Kennedy still being shopped?” “are you going after so and so?” and even “who is this years Lohse that you will sign cheap after other clubs pass on him?”. I liked Moz’s answer to that last one, basically I won’t name names but I think there will be a few people unsigned in late Jan (good assumption I think). Nothing ground shattering but I would be interested if someone who was more awake remembered anything juicy.
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 8:17 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Perez??
Really?
Some how I see a LaDuncan- Perez relationship ending poorly, along the lines of Jason Marquis and Garrett Stephenson.
by JMedwick on Dec 8, 2008 8:46 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I didn't realize
Jason Marquis and Garrett Stephenson had a falling out?
jk.
Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.
And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!
by Tackle Box on Dec 8, 2008 9:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
Jason Marquis and Garret Stephenson ever met. They both knew LaDunky though.
by ridgesee on Dec 8, 2008 9:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well then
i am sure they met in the support group…
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." -Rogers Hornsby
by nomar34 on Dec 8, 2008 10:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The...
…Anthony Reyes Club for the Disliked By Duncan. Or TARCFTDBB for short. That is pronounced Tark-fut-dubaba.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that would be TARCFTDBD, right?
Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.
And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!
by Tackle Box on Dec 8, 2008 7:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I suppose it would
It is now the Tark-fut-dubda
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 9:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like that better.
Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.
And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!
by Tackle Box on Dec 8, 2008 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
morning gents
ken rosenthal says the cards are in on a.j. burnett
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8911104/Sources:-Cardinals-serious-about-Burnett
for what that’s worth. i don’t think the cards will ultimately end up getting him - i think burnett is using the cards for negotiating leverage - but i do believe they are bidding. mozeliak was central to the negotiations for burnett back in 2005, and has always liked the player. tony and dave like him; so does the statistical unit.
as i said, i doubt they will end up with him, but i do believe the cards are taking a run at the guy.
by lboros on Dec 8, 2008 10:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
oops, didn't see the reference to this in comments above
sorry . . . .
by lboros on Dec 8, 2008 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
good to see you around these parts :)
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice to see you around again
Some, myself included, were wondering your thoughts on the Khalil acquisition.
by OCCardsFan on Dec 8, 2008 10:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+2
"A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein." - Joe Theismann
by TurdFerguson on Dec 8, 2008 11:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree w/ danup's front-page post on this
it’s a good trade as far as it goes -- not much downside, considerable upside for one season. but that’s the only problem w/ the trade -- it’s at best a 1-year fix. next year they’ll be looking for a SS again, unless they think either tyler greene or brendan ryan will be ready to step in.
overall i like the trade though, because k greene probably ranks near the top of the list of plausible options. i’d love to get yunel escobar or reid brignac, but the cards can’t afford guys like that talentwise. ben zobrist? better hitter than khalil and cheaper too, but nowhere near as good a fielder. brandon wood might have been a better option and within reach, but his fielding is suspect and tony likes very heady players at SS (and that doesn’t describe wood).
by lboros on Dec 8, 2008 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Re-up
Is it a foregone conclusion that he will walk after the one year here? Maybe we can resign him and bridge the gap to one of the younger guys if Ryan and Greene aren’t ready. Of course, if he has a good year, he might walk and get a big contract on the free agent market, but a mid-year extension could happen
by brafi on Dec 8, 2008 11:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he might stay
but they will have to pay top $$$$ to keep him here, and there is a lot of built-in inflation on the current payroll. albert and carp will max out their ann’l salaries in 2010-11, wainwright, yadi, and lohse all have built-in raises, and guys like ankiel / ludwick / duncan will be reaching free agency or arbitration, making them more expensive. if greene is worth keeping, they’ll have to give him 3 to 4 years at about $9 milllion per -— thus making other roster moves less affordable.
by lboros on Dec 8, 2008 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ben zobrist? better hitter than khalil
Not sure I totally agree with that. His minor league numbers seem to indicate that he’d walk more, but I think his power numbers last year are a bit suspect, because he never hit more than 7 homers in any year on the minor leagues. If you’re looking at his walk rate in the minors I think that you have to take his power numbers into account too.
Greene was terrible last season, but he’s been a better than league average SS with the bat in every season prior and has a lot more AB’s at the big league level than Zobrist does.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think zobrist would be better if given the chance
career obp of .428 in the minor leagues; i’d like to see what he could do if given 600 pas at the big-league level. his slg might be 50 points lower than khalil greene’s, but his obp might be 100 points higher.
by lboros on Dec 8, 2008 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He very well could be better over the course of a full season
I still think that the organization should be pursuing him over this offseason and during the season next year as someone who can be a long term solution at that SS position. The closer Brignac gets to the big leagues, the more available Zobrist becomes. It would also give the Cardinals time to see whether Rasmus will play next year in CF, which would open up Skippy, Mather, Ank, and Ludwick as possible trade bait for the Rays, who still have a pretty big hole in the outfield.
I like the Greene trade simply because he could really help us next year (which I’m not sure that Zobrist would), it keeps our defense above average (Zobrist would not) for a pitching staff that puts a lot of balls in play, and puts another power stick in the lineup from the right handed side for a team that has struggled to hit lefties for the past 3 years for whatever reason.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Zobrist isn't a very good fielder, either.
The numbers and Rays fans agree on that.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that surprises me
I think one of the things defensive statistics will have to work against as they gain acceptance is the way that seemingly every shortstop without a lot of home run power comes up with a good defensive rep.
by DanUpBaby on Dec 8, 2008 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's Nichols' Law
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Nichols_Law_Of_Catcher_Defense
Dare I mention anything about Yadier Molina…
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I would
Yadi is good but the more I see metrics the more they tell me he isn’t always the best at what counts, sure he can cut down runners but he isn’t as great at blocking pitches as he needs to be.
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Khalil Greene?
Anyway, this isn’t the gold gloves. The defensive stats are determined by numbers and a composite of the stats usually is enough to figure out which players are good and bad at defense.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 6:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nice to see you back as well
so, a question: what would it take to get zobrist (to play 2nd for now) and sonnenstine from tampa?
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 8, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably something
Perez/Motte + Schumaker/Mather + Anderson might work
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh no
deja vu, all over again. hopefully after missing out on Burnett they don’t settle for another Ponson.
Brad Penny seems to be the sort of guy that Duncan works his magic with. I’m probably in the minority on that sort of notion.
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
by erik on Dec 8, 2008 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nope.....
I’d love a Penny signing too.
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
by SoonerfanTU on Dec 8, 2008 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would rather the Cards add Penny
Than Burnett, who seems to have caught the eyes of a number of big name suitors.
by JMedwick on Dec 8, 2008 10:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
with carp’s contract hanging over them, they need to make the best gamble they can. i agree on the greene gamble and i think penny is probably the best price/perfpormance option out there fa-wise
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 8, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I assume you don't mean for the same price.
What would you pay Penny?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
who the hell are you?
we’ve missed you in these parts. I see you’ve already forgotten where the reply button is located. Welcome back. Maybe we’ll put together some sort of tutorial for you. I assume you don’t need the community guidelines like our friend above, though.
by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 12:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what is this reply button
you speak of?
by lboros on Dec 8, 2008 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The reply button
is located next to your name and time stamp and is used to make outlandish claims, misrepresented “Facts” and any other generally incoherent rants the person feels need to be shared with the world.
Or is that just the definition for me?
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Dec 8, 2008 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hello sir!
That is all…
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The eye of Sauron has returned!!!
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Dec 8, 2008 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Long-Term Deal For Burnett?
Giving AJ Burnett a 5-year deal would be as stupid as giving Chris Carpenter a 4-term deal.
by thepainguy on Dec 8, 2008 10:34 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
plus, they lose their first round pick to Toronto.
Not really liking this scenario.
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
by erik on Dec 8, 2008 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Losing your first round pick to
get a player that projects as 3 WAR with upside of 5WAR is a reasonable gamble. As far as health goes, that’s another can of worms. Every pitcher has their warts but I’m inclined to ignore Burnett’s.
by azruavatar on Dec 8, 2008 10:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you've been the President
of the A.J. Burnett fan club for some time. I just hate 5 year deals for pitchers — unless they’re absolutely at the top of their profession. It’s not the first rounder we’d miss here. I’m afraid it’s another Carpenter contract we’d have to deal with.
by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
If they could work out some kind of 2-3 year thing with Burnett with a low guaranteed rate and a lot of performance bonuses, I’d be just fine with that. But Burnett would be a damn fool for taking a deal like that when the Braves, Yankees, or Sox will throw a wad of green at him.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A 4 term deal
would be ludicrous, Senate or Presidential. He’d be 50 by the time those contracts ran out!
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 8, 2008 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What about House?
The house is only 2 year terms ;) still not good though
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 8, 2008 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yes, but for four or five years?
Short term, he definitely would help. Long term is what scares me.
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
by erik on Dec 8, 2008 10:53 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Cards suck at developing starting pitching of that caliber
I don’t like the long term deal either but I’d do it. How many more prime Pujols years are we going to have?
by azruavatar on Dec 8, 2008 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
flags fly forever
i guess. i dunno, like chris said, i’m afraid of another carp scenario
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
by erik on Dec 8, 2008 11:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
If there is a slight fear of not extending Pujols… we have been spoon fed this getting ready for 2009… money coming off the books… don’t want to mortgage our chances of winning in 2009 by making a mid-season deal to win in 2008. Pull the freaking trigger already! At some point you have to actually do what it takes to win, if not you are always planning for the future and never doing anything in the present.
?
by showmejoe on Dec 8, 2008 8:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree, erik
there are only a handful of pitchers that i would give a 5 year deal to…injury prone throwers or throwers over 30 on are not on the list and especially not if you are both. 3 years max and that is just because he is a special talent…he will end up getting more elsewhere…
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." -Rogers Hornsby
by nomar34 on Dec 8, 2008 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Burnett might be nice
But he is at the lower end of type A FAs that would be worth the 1st rounder. Oliver Perez should be DQ’d from the start because of his type-A status- not worth the pick. I still would prefer Wood or Hoffman coupled with Penny or Johnson, and if we have $15-17 million to work with, as Strauss is reporting, Mo might be able to make that happen.
by BustaCard on Dec 8, 2008 11:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Here's the quote from the Strauss article that says the most to me...
“Our preference is to stay shorter than longer,” Mozeliak said.
Which means that we’re probably out of the running for players like Burnett, Wolf, Lowe, etc, who are all looking for 4 years or more.
If this is what the organization is looking for — short term contracts (1-2 years), then only a few of free agent pitchers make any sense at all:
- Randy Johnson: Probably the cheapest and best option considering how good he was last year. If any National League contender gets him it would be a huge boon to their chances for not much money. On a slightly off topic note…Why aren’t the Cubs trying to sign him instead of trading for Peavy? They are a team set up for a run in the short term, and he was better than Peavy away from PetCo last year and doesn’t have an albatross contract. Doesn’t make sense to me…
- Andy Pettitte: Is looking for a one year deal, but is probably the most expensive of the players listed here. He’s also probably the worst pitcher of the ones that I have listed to, so he’d be option three on my chart. Again, why aren’t the Cubs bidding for him instead of Peavy?
- Brad Penny: Hear me out…He was really stinking good in 2007 and battled a bunch of injuries last season — which were similar to the injuries that he had in 2006 if I’m not mistaken. His situation seems similar to Lohse’s last season in that teams don’t want to give him a long term contract or pay him big $$$ because they aren’t sure which Penny they are getting: The dominant, top of the rotation starter from 2007, or the injury plagued one from 2006 and 2008? Obviously Lohse wasn’t signed because he overestimated the market, but Penny’s situation is similar: He needs to prove that he can be a top flight starter. He’s 31 next May and could then seek a long term (5 years or more) deal after next season if he proves that he’s healthy. Seems like a great candidate for a one year $10M deal to me, which would suit the Cardinals just fine. I’d much rather have Penny for 1Y$10M than Burnett for 5Y75M
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 11:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thank you Michael Scott!!
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Perez
I am quite intrigued by Oliver Perez. The guy has a hell of an arm and some absolutely filthy stuff. He’s very erratic, true, but when he’s throwing well he’s pretty tough. I’d be uncomfortable giving him a longer deal b/c of his erratic-ness, but for a 2-3 year deal he’d be a good addition. He won’t take it, but it’s worth kicking the tires.
I’ll say it again…Randy Johnson.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 11:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ollie Perez
He seems like the type of guy who would drive Duncan CRAZY because of his meddling inconsistency of performance from start to start, and his willingness to not follow gameplans on hitters and try to get them out his way. Very much like Jason Marquis — can be really good when he has his head on his shoulders, but can be terrible when he goes rogue.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For the love of...
Please sign Randy Johnson.
Johnson
Johnson
"Never judge a taco by its price" - Dr. Gonzo
by KennyWang on Dec 8, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How often is he throwing well, though?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
From June 29th on last season
Perez had a 3.42 era with 112 K in 110 innings. He was still walking a fair number of guys, but he wasn’t really getting hit either. He was inconsistent before that, and pretty outstanding in 2007, but that was really my point. He’s up and down, yes, but when he’s up he’s very very good. I think for a low year-low dollar value contract he’d be a good pickup. Like 2 years 20 million+ incentives or something. He wouldn’t take it, which I said as well. Wouldn’t you rather have Perez at 10 million a year +incentives (which, I’ll say again, he wouldn’t take) than Pinata at 7? I absolutely would.
I’d also rather have Johnson at one year, 9-11 million than just about anyone out there.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2008 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why are we looking for 1-2 years for SP's.....
When we don’t have alot of quality depth in the minors, especially SP’s with upper rotation potential? I can understand not wanting a SS for that reason (Koz and Vaz), but seriously, our minor league pitching, while solid, is far from spectacular.
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
by SoonerfanTU on Dec 8, 2008 12:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Volatility
Generally speaking, pitching is a much more risky of an investment. If you want to use a window of 3+ years and project pitching performance for a pitcher, you’ll need to use a much wider range of possibilities vs. a hitter. There might be some reluctance just because of that. We look at Carpenter and Mulder, and think we were the victims of bad luck. Maybe to some extent that is true, but a lot of other teams have similar stories to tell.
Also, while I think your assessment of the farm clubs starting pitching is fair, many of the top pitching prospects are in the upper levels. So they will need to make assessments on many of them soon. If not this season, then next.
I’m generally an advocate of keeping pitching deals short anyway. I happen to think it’s an especially good stance to take for this team, this year.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 8, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kennedy
Agree with the commenter above that doesn’t believe he is really going to stay. Most likely such statements on Mo’s part are public posturing. They don’t want to create the impression that the situation is untenable. Would like to have another team take on as much of the contract as possible or, if we are going to have to eat some salary, receive a marginal prospect back.
Hopefully Tony doesn’t brush up on his letter writing skills again this offseason.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 8, 2008 12:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Kennedy can go
If he stays, so be it. But if he goes I think there are a couple things to consider.
1) the market is really thin for 2b
2) our budget is getting pretty tight (especially if we sign the pitching that I think we’re all hoping we sign)
Shedding AKs salary would help, even if we had to swallow a million. And we do have in-house, cheap options. Miles is serviceable, Ryan still has potential to be above replacement, and Hoffpauir and Barden have a lot of, pretty successful high minors experience. I know that doesn’t necessarily translate into a good situation for 2b next year, but it certainly is a position where we have some options. And if it meant that we could strengthen our pitching- minors and majors- situation, I would be willing to see if anyone stepped up from in-house next year.
by BustaCard on Dec 8, 2008 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Perez can't throw strikes
I don’t want any part of him in a big money LT deal.
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 1:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I say take a chance on Perez
or maybe Penny… I don’t think they’re interested in Randy Johnson (plus he’s really old), and AJ Burnett will most likely get a 5 year deal (hell naw). Pettitte will be too expensive… if we get him, we won’t have any leverage during the trade season I think. Or maybe we should just get Kerry Wood (still fantasizing about the idea of 3 flamethrowing overlords in the bullpen)
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 1:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Has there been any talk of trading major league position players for pitching?
That way you don’t have to spend at the free agent rates for starters, and can plug the extra position player talent in as replacements. It’s often easier to sell other teams on your MLB roster than minor leaguers.
Maybe something like Rick Ankiel for Sonnanstine (a little too good of a deal, but just an example). Or something bigger like Ludwick for Marcum or Ricky Nolasco?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 2:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like
Skip Schumaker is the only position player the Cards are dangling. I would gladly give up Ankiel and a solid B prospect for a starter, but it doesn’t seem like there’s much of a market for Slick Rick.
by silent_bob on Dec 8, 2008 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we would talk about it more
but after the no-deal last year at the trade deadline and very few talks about that, I don’t even feel like speculating about it. Schumaker is about the only person I’d feel comfortable with trading, and Chris Duncan doesn’t have any trade value, so it’s hard to say… although we probably need to trade both Skip and one other outfielder, since there’s still a total glut in the OF. perhaps Mather would be a good trade chip, but I’d hate to see him go (and mash like 40 homeruns per season over the next 10 years)
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying YOU should talk about it more, I'm saying the front office should talk about it more.
Why are you uncomfortable trading Ankiel or Ludwick? Sure, it makes the offense weaker, but it would still be strong overall. And worrying about possibly creating a hole in the field is a little short-sighted when there are about 3.5 holes in the rotation.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you can get value yes, but I have a feeling they they are going to be viewed as one year wonders
and you won’t be able to get the players in return that are going to match their abilities.
Frankly, If anyone should be dangled it should be Glaus.
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's pretty much how I feel
I think that we’d get ripped off for either Ludwick or Ankiel
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel is going to get paid like .5 WAR player
But has potential to be a 3 WAR player. He has a lot of upside for a team willing to take a little risk for only one year on a cheap contract. Someone like the Yankee’s could use a stop gap at CF for one season.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
get on the phone with Steinbrenner!
j/k
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Might you be overrating them?
Ankiel, for example:
+1.5 win offense
+.25 win position
0 fielding
2 win replacement
+3.25 WAR overall
That’s good, but he’ll actually be paid some money in 2008 and is gone afterwards. At a FA worth of $15MM and a payday of say $5MM, that’s a gain of $10MM. Sonnanstine’s conservatively a 2 WAR pitcher (I’d go 3), which is worth $10MM a year. He’ll make nothing, $4MM, $6MM, $8MM (just guessing, feel free to modify) over the next four years. That’s a net gain of $22MM. Ankiel’s not anywhere close to that.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why would the Rays trade Sonnanstine
for Ankiel? do they have that much depth at starting pitching?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, They have that much depth
The Rays have to get rid of someone this off season even if it is not the perfect deal for them. They are just loaded with SP depth. Schumaker or Mather though seems like a better fit for them than Ankiel.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know Mather... help?
But Schumaker doesn’t seem like anything better than a Gabe Gross-based platoon.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Check his B-R
page for his stats for 2008 and the minors page for his minor league numbers…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Mather
having his whole name would probably help…lol
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Mather
He is young and cost controlled. He seems like a real power threat with a good glove. He could easily be a .850 OPS corner guy that can occasionally play CF.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think everyone was impressed by Mather's glovework
at least a little bit… he was better than expected, plus I think he’s still improving his hitting abilities.
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If he’s on our team by time we go into ‘09 and gets enough platoon time in, ’09 will be his boom year. He’s highly underrated
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Looks a little old for his league, and just started putting up good numbers.
But if he really is a good fielder, he’s pretty solid.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a complete readjustment on his swing and approach has made him a late bloomer. He’s always had strength he’s just now hitting like he does.
The fielding surprised many though, but I wouldn’t ever consider him CF worthy long term. Good platoon option.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
they need
a right fielder
we need sonny and zobrist to avoid more floppiness net year
zobrist can play second and is a better floppy than floppy is
he IS the new spiez
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 8, 2008 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Zobrist would be a great utility man
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, they have that much depth at starting pitching.
No, they wouldn’t trade Sonny for Ankiel.
Shields
Kazmir
Garza
Sonny
Jackson
Price
Davis
Niemann
Hellickson
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel plus ??? though?
Ankiel is not worth as much as Sonny but that is why you add something else to the deal. I think our best bargaining chips with the Rays is relief pitching. That seems to be their only weakness of any kind. So any trade with Rays would most likely include Motte or Perez.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
how about Ankiel
plus Chris Duncan and Adam Kennedy? just kidding…
more like Ank plus Skip to get it done
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wow
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not ot mention
Moore and Barnese with premium stuff/stats at the lower levels and McGee making his way back from TJ.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Rick isn’t injured or playing when he should be on the DL, those numbers may be underrating Rick by a margin.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agree
before rick got hurt (26 July) he had a .347 OBP and a .543 SLG. Over 650 PA’s, that is 22 runs above average or about 4 wins above replacement, from a CF, in offense alone.
And that is including the roughly 100 PA’s of .500ish OPS in the 9th inning; if he ever gets control of his nerves, or if TLR starts pulling him for a PH in the 9th, his rate stats could be even better than that.
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 6:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
add in another year in a limited career that involves hitting, and defense impact that the injuries could have had (I’d love to see a gamelog of -/+) there’s a strong case that Rick could have a boom year if healthy.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 7:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's certainly possible that that's Rick's true talent level.
But many a player has put together a very good half-season never to do it again. The injury helps frame everything with a nice explanatory story, but we don’t really know whether it’s relevant or not. Many stories have failed to come true. All teams and their fans create and tell them.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 7:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's hard to project because there isn't anyone to compare him too
All I know is that his batting eye took a quantum leap forward last year, so in any deal you have to be worried that he hasn’t hit his ceiling yet.
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it was a catastrophic injury
the guy tried to reach a home run ball and ran full speed into the wall. After that he had a .500ish OPS for the rest of the season.
The only question, IMHO, is if he’ll recover from that injury. Much like Chris Duncan last off-season, we won’t know until spring training.
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 7:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that good half argument doesn’t really explain a foundation set when he was called up in ’07.
meaning, just as you can consider it a one year fluke, you have to consider that until that injury he still wasn’t close to his upside.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 7:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
his '07
was similar to his beginning of ’08
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 9, 2008 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
which hampers the whole “put together a whole half season”
When Rick is healthy, he mashes.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 9, 2008 12:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would love Ank for Sonnastine
This deal would be perfect to me. The Rays get their power-hitting corner outfielder, we get our starter. It’s just icing on the cake that Sonnastine is cost controlled and a lefty. At first I thought the Rays would never accept this deal because of Ank reaching free agency after ‘09. But the more I think about this, unless Ank has a MONSTROUS injury free season, there is probably a high likelihood the Rays could re-sign him. The Rays don’t have the highest payroll, but that would work in their favor. They don’t have any huge contracts on the books so they could afford to spend a little more money. Especially now that they are winning, revenue has the chance to increase.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 8, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That would be a fantastic deal
But it’s so far from reality that it’s best to not think about it.
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey
A man can still dream can’t he?
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 8, 2008 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get the love for Sonnanstine
I am not necessarily disagreeing, but I don’t see anything in his numbers to make me salivate. He looks like a decent pitcher, but I don’t understand why lots of folks think he is THE young pitcher we should go after. What is the allure?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Dec 8, 2008 7:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sonnanstine is a righty
Still, I’d be much more inclined to deal Ankiel than Ludwick. I’m still not sure how we’d win much against lefties with any combo of Duncan, Schu, Ankiel, Mather, Barton, Rasmus in the outfield. I think Mather can do fine, but we need Ludwick out there. Ankiel is just ok vs. lefties and we have other options vs. righties. He can be dealt. He only has 1 year left, and that will limit his trade value a bit, but then we also resist the urge to resign him and pour millions to a position that we don’t need to.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 8, 2008 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pujols and Glaus (and Greene) ain't bad against lefties.
And with a solid pitcher on the mound, you could play near .500 ball against lefties. The Rays survived the lefty-heavy problem ok last year.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops...
I thought I remembered him throwing from the left side in the ALCS…My bad, I should’ve advised B-R before hand to be sure.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 8, 2008 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm guessing if Moz could make this happen
it would, but he can’t
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Marcum was donezo for the year with TJ
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm, maybe I meant "a Marcum-like pitcher".
Yeah, that’s the ticket!
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 7:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Home town discount??
I wonder if the Cards will be getting a discount on A.J. Burnett. I’ve heard he wanted to pitch in St.Louis. He might be a good fit with Dave Duncan. Has anyone heard the dollars involved here??
by bigmotors on Dec 8, 2008 2:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
you mean after he took the big money and left us hanging in the breeze last time???
Methinks no…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One more year = one more guaranteed year of $$$
Which is why he took that deal….
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not the point...
The point was that he didn’t give us a hometown discount last time, so why would he do it this time? I wasn’t making a judgment on his character at all…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I never said he's give a hometown discount
I’m saying that your misrepresenting what happened.
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And I wasn't talking to you -- you stuck your nose into conversation
I’m not misrepresenting what happened either. The Cardinals offered him 4Y$55M, the Jays gave him 5Y$70M that included a players option for the last year.
That is the definition of “taking the money”, regardless of whether he had an extra year or not. He’s getting the same amount of money per year, with $15M more guaranteed on the end of it if he wants it. He took the money instead of giving St. Louis a “hometown discount” like the original poster said he might do this time.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When you are commenting in a public comment thread you are talking to everyone.
So if I think your misrepresenting what happened, I’m gonna say so.
The Blue Jays offered a little more money per season, plus one more year. I have a hard time seeing the betrayal that you see.
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 5:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Again
I. Am. Not. Commenting. On. His. Character. Get that? Ok then.
The fact remains that he did leave us swinging in the wind when he signed that deal because there weren’t any other good free agent pitchers for us to go after when his deal was signed. It’s not AJ’s fault, that’s just the way things worked out.
Also, again, the original poster made the inference that he might take a discount to come to St. Louis — I merely responded that he didn’t take a hometown discount last time, so why would he take one in this instance? When you take more money for more years, you are “taking the money”!!!
I’m not saying that I wouldn’t have done the same thing, but the fact remains that he didn’t take a hometown discount on his last contract, he took more money for more years to go somewhere else.
If you don’t understand this, don’t bother replying. I’m not going to argue over your semantics anymore. I’m not misrepresenting anything, only saying that he took a larger contract to go to another team last time, so the chances of him taking less to come to St. Louis probably aren’t very good.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 6:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not arguing the basic premise
But there’s a strong implication there the Burnett is overly greedy and that betrayed he betrayed the Cardinals and their fans and that’s just no true.
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 7:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, but the premise,
that he took the money once and is likely to do it again. Do you actually disagree with that?
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 8:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's right
nobody “sticks their nose into a conversation” around here. Each conversation belongs to all of us. Aside from that, you guys seem to be quibbling over nothing.
by chuckb on Dec 8, 2008 8:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One reason
to forgo the payday is to have a chance to play for a contender, something that was impossible in Toronto.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why was it impossible?
Toronto is a solid team in a very tough division. They would of won the NL West
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They are merely solid
in a very tough division. Not enough. The Wild Card is their only bet, really.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LMAO
Really? So where would you have put the Rays before last season? If you say that you had them winning the AL East you’re LYING!!!!
If Toronto had everything come together like the Rays did, they could have won that division with a rotation led by Halladay, Burnett, and McGowan and an offense led by Wells, Rios, and Rolen.
Anything is possible…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So your point is...
that the Blue Jays would have had to have absolutely everything come together in a manner similar to the Rays who jumped from worst to first, to win a division.
I’d say a less competitive division with a team that is a perennial contender is a better bet than that.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 7:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW, jays had a 93-69 pythag last year
That’s a lot better than I thought they were. For some reason I thought their 86-win total was lucky, but it was the other way around.
They very well could have contended, with a bit of luck.
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 7:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't all the AL East teams underperform their pythags because they are in the AL East?
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 7:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
But I guess some people want to laugh at this.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bottom line for me:
I see Toronto as the Cubs of the AL East. They just always find a way to lose, even when they have winning seasons. They haven’t had over 90 wins since the early 90s! I’m just sayin… If you had to pick from 5 teams to play for, would you EVER pick Toronto?
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
they can't be the Cubs of the AL east
since they won the world series in the early ’90s.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 8, 2008 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough.
They still have a hard time getting into the playoffs.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What about Padres
of the AL East? Is that better?
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 11:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but the padres haven't really tried
to flat-out buy a championship yet. They are kind of just hanging out, sipping margaritas, winning games just often enough that most folks remember there’s a stadium in town. Every now and then they win enough games to make the playoffs, and dude, that’s cool, but the cardinals are tough.
I think it’s best just to call the Cubs “the Cubs”, and let everyone laugh at the “inside joke” that everyone but cubs fans share.
BTW, was there supposed to be an apostrophe in that sentence? My gut says yes, but now I’m paranoid.
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Toronto
spent less than us last year, for 12th overall in baseball. Two teams in the AL East spent more than the Jays, and both finished higher in the standings. The Jays are in the top half of payroll, but I wouldn’t say they’re trying to buy a championship.
People act like Tampa Bay came out of nowhere. All off-season, Tampa Bay was what people were talking about. How young they were and how much pitching they had, how we’d like to partner with them in a trade for their awesome prospects. I don’t do predictions, mainly because I don’t care. But to act like the Rays came out of nowhere (when there is A LOT to like about that team, a lot we’d like to emulate, and pitching out the yin-yang) is rather ridiculous. They have clearly turned a corner in terms of overall management.
It’s clear that Toronto underperformed. My point is that I’m not all that surprised. Do I have any rational basis for this opinion? No, I don’t. I just see them as one of those teams that like to lose. Maybe it’s the astroturf.
And you know what? The Jays won’t make the playoffs next year either. Perhaps they’re being cursed for getting rid of most of the blue in their uniforms. :P
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 11:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Upon further reflection,
I do see that Toronto has increased their payroll over the last couple of seasons.
* 2008: $ 97,973,900
* 2007: $ 81,942,800
* 2006: $ 71,915,000
* 2005: $ 45,719,500
* 2004: $ 50,017,000
* 2003: $ 51,269,000
* 2002: $ 76,864,333
* 2001: $ 76,896,000
* 2000: $ 46,363,332
Still, payroll isn’t everything.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 11:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would. The GM obviously can value pitching and fielding.
He has a track record of putting together above-average teams with average payroll.
I call “winning tradition” and “always finds a way to lose” complete BS.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 9, 2008 7:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well, lets see
Boston, 95-67 (0)
TOR, 93-67 (-7)
rays 92-70 (5)
Yanks, 89-73 (+2)
BAL, 73-88 (-5)
2 over, 2 under, one right on.
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2008 7:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just curious...
What is the likelihood that three divisional teams tie for first? Or four, even?
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, not at all.
Competing against tougher competition will cause your team to score fewer runs and allow more. That will lower your Pythag compared to your true talent level.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 7:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How would you know who I picked to win the AL East?
And that has nothing to do with my position on the Blue Jays. Further, I don’t like your tone. I won’t engage you anymore if you insist on being rude just because we disagree.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I find this funny
My tone? You made a statement that a team with a 92 win pythag last year never had a chance to compete for the title. It just so happens that the Rays had a 92 win Pythag last year also, and won the division. I was merely pointing out that things are not always what they seem on the surface. Toronto has a lot of good young players and could probably make a run at things in the next year or two if they sign the right guys and their young players improve and produce. It’s been a little over a decade now since they were the dominant team in the AL East.
That said, only those people looking to make a splash would have picked the Rays to finish 1st in that division at the beginning of last year. The Red Sox had just come off of a World Series title and were the favorites in the division. I remember some guffaws at their pythag from last season because it was so high.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 9, 2008 8:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It seems to me you
were going beyond disagreeing with me. I think your tone was berating and dripping with sarcasm. And like I explained above, I just see the Jays as perennial losers.
by spants on Dec 9, 2008 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Jays were probably one of the top, hmm, six teams in MLB last year.
Red Sox
Rays
Cubs
Yankees
Jays
Angels
No particular order.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But:
Still not able to make the playoffs.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What do you mean "not able"?
They didn’t, that’s true.
But had the Rays not gone all bat-shit crazy, the Jays, by talent, were the second best team in the AL East and would have been the Wild Card.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 8:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fine.
They still didn’t make the playoffs. This is like saying “If the Astros didn’t have a late season surge…” “If only the Cubs had collapsed before the playoffs…” Then perhaps the Cardinals would’ve made the playoffs.
But it doesn’t really matter because we did not make the playoffs. And neither did Toronto. Again.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 8:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just because it already happened,
doesn’t change the fact that it was unlikely to happen.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 8:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What is the likelihood that a team will make the playoffs?
By default, it’s got to lower than the chances that they’re sitting October out.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 11:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Toronto was good enough to win every Division in baseball except the AL East
(and maybe the NL Central)
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 7:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That doesn't make any sense either
He had a great year in 2008 in the AL East, and two teams in the AL East are looking for pitching, are contenders every year, and at least one, if not both, would be willing to pay him his quote.
There are also two other perennial contenders with big pocketbooks that are in the market for a pitcher this offseason (Mets and Dodgers) and another one that is trying to sign him now (Atlanta). Why would he sign with the Cardinals for less when he could sign with a contender AND get his 5 years and $70M+, unless all of those other options had been exhausted?
Would you leave a year’s pay and money on the table just to play for a team that currently isn’t the best in it’s own division, much less the best in it’s League.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That might
be what he’s thinking. And we might not look good on paper, but the Cardinals have had a very successful run this decade. I’m pretty sure the players notice that type of thing.
Besides, no one is a purely rational being. Decisions are made for all sorts of inexplicable reasons. I’m not agreeing, or disagreeing, with any of them.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, there is the possibility that he HATED playing in Toronto
and now wants to do what he wanted to do all along, but Scottie B talked him out of.
It’s all just speculation anyway.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 8, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Burnett's offer
The Braves reportedly offered 60 mil for 4 years. He’s seeking a fifth year. I’d have to walk away from that deal.
by bigmotors on Dec 8, 2008 2:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The 4Y60M or the 5Y72M??
4Y60M is below his market value…I’d balk at a 5th year, but a 5th year option? Hmmmmmmmmm….
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 8, 2008 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the best place to spend money is on a Closer
The market has more closers available than spots open. After the Met’s get a closer the market will severely diminish in teams willing to spend top dollar on a closer. That seems like to me where you can get your best bargain.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't totally discount the possibility
that Boggs will be a viable starter
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not until he gets that changeup.
I’m quite bullish on Boggs but lefties are ‘handling’ his fastball and absolutely pounding his slurve. If he can get a changeup that’s at least serviceable then he’s at least a #4 starter with upside.
The movement on his fastball is that good.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He has a change up
He has a devastating change up when it is working. He has one of the largest gaps in baseball between his fastball and change up in terms of MPH. I am a Fan of Boggs but needs at least another half season in the minors
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2008 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“when it’s working” which is where I’m leaning to. there was no confidence in it last year at all, he pitched way too many slurves against lefties and just as he was heading back to the minors he went FB heavy
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to be a douche
But a changeup is one where that everyone’s is devastating when it’s on. The ability to command it and throw it with the same arm speed (FJM alert) consistently is the issue for pretty much everyone, and moreso than most for Boggs last year. His might have especially high potential, but it was very much not fulfilled last year.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No.
Not all changeups are created equally.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Equally overall? I didn't say that
But 80% of changeup is throwing it the same as your fastball however it moves/speed within reason obviously. Hamels’ change (a 10.3 mph difference from fastball, 5.7 mph horizontal difference, 4 inch vertical difference) and say Andy Pettitte’s (9.8 mph difference, 6.9 inch horizontal difference, 4.8 inch vertical difference) are nearly identically different in movement/speed from their similar FBs.
Every pitcher can throw a changeup that is comparable to any of the Hamels or Hoffman’s when those things happen to come together——unlike say a slider…very few can ever throw a Lidge slider or a Lincecum 83 mph 8 inch curve—-Hamels can do that over and over whereas Pettitte can’t.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But isn't the replication
of said changeup the difference? Sure, Boggs can throw a good changeup. Sometimes. Hamels can throw it all the time. So can Johan Santana. Boggs, apparently, cannot.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 7:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's literally the exact point of what I'm saying
Hamels can do that over and over whereas Pettitte can’t.
Pettitte and Hamels are throwing a pitch that breaks nearly identically (relative to their fastballs) and has nearly the same velocity difference. The difference between one of the top pitches in baseball and a useable changeup is Hamels’ arm speed and command of the pitch. So when Flim says:
He has a devastating change up when it is working. He has one of the largest gaps in baseball between his fastball and change up in terms of MPH.
That doesn’t necessarily mean his changeup is actually good. Merely having a large velo separation means very little IMO; to me that’s equivalent to saying someone throws 97 therefore they’re a good pitcher.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 8:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think we're disagreeing.
My bad.
by spants on Dec 8, 2008 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Joker, I agree with you on some of what you're saying, but
it’s actually been shown that the speed difference between the FB and change is better the larger it gets, in the same way that runs/100 goes up as a pitcher’s curve moves more laterally or his slider gets less lateral movement. The effective part of the changeup is its similarity in trajectory to the fastball, and the gap between the speeds. Closer trajectory, bigger speed gap=less runs/100.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 8:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's the 20%...
If I recall the Kalk article you’re referencing the r^2s were fairly small and the distribution appeared pretty jumbled to the naked eye.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 10:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So, what, you're disputing that the speed differential actually makes the difference?
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 11:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just read the above posts to figure that one out
Because “80%” means I don’t find speed differential or movement at all important.
Again “a pitcher can throw 97” and “a changeup has a 12 mph speed differential” are just about equally ambiguous.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 11:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the thing.
You’re plucking 80% out of the air, while you dispute Kalk’s findings that used actual data. Yes, 97 and 12 are ambiguous, hence the statistics.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Dec 8, 2008 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey just for fun I actually found the Kalk article for you
R^2 of .23 on speed differential which I’m not even entirely convinced would even be statistically significant. Please take a look at a graph and tell me that you can actually tell whether a changeup is good or bad based on speed differential.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 8, 2008 11:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
But you’ll have to wait and see which relievers fall through. Could even pick up two or three at discounted prices.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 8, 2008 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder
does VEB get a lot more activity than other team’s blogs? just curious
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Athletics Nation and Lookout Landing (M’s) are both quite heavy as well. As is the Cubs’ blog. We’re probably in the top 5 though.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 8, 2008 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm scared to even look at the Cubs blog
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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