Winter Meetings Preview
by chuckb on Dec 7, 2008 11:14 AM EST
in St. Louis Cardinals News
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2009 ROSTER MATRIX
PRE-WINTER MEETINGS
| STARTERS | BENCH | ROTATION | PEN |
|---|---|---|---|
| molina c $3.3m |
miles ut $2m |
wainwright rhp $2.6m |
perez rhp $400K |
| pujols 1b $16m |
duncan lf $600K |
lohse rhp $7.1m |
franklin rhp $2.5m |
| kennedy 2b $4m |
barton of $400K |
pineiro rhp $7.5m |
motte rhp $400K |
| glaus 3b $11.3m |
mather of $400K |
wellemeyer rhp $2.5m |
mcclellan rhp $400K |
| greene $6.5m |
ryan ut $400K |
carpenter rhp $14m |
kinney rhp $400K |
| schumaker lf $450K |
rasmus of memphis |
boggs rhp memphis |
thompson rhp $500K |
| ankiel cf $2.5m |
larue c $950k |
todd rhp memphis |
miller lhp $2m |
| ludwick rf $1.8m |
freese 3b memphis |
mortensen rhp memphis |
--- --- --- --- |
| TOTAL $45.5m |
TOTAL $4.75m |
TOTAL $33.7m |
TOTAL $6.6m |
| OVERALL | PAYROLL: | $90.55m |
Maybe the payroll limit is the answer to our Randy Johnson question. He’d be super in the 5 hole but there doesn’t appear to be enough money to add Johnson and 2 relievers – even if we pare some payroll by trading an OF. BTW, if we can’t afford Johnson, how is it possible we could afford Pettitte even in the unlikeliest of scenarios where he would even entertain an offer from the Cards? That I don’t get at all.
Second base is put on the WAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY back-burner as there seems to be a greater likelihood that Kennedy will return. I suppose that’s ok. If he’s half as good defensively as he was last year, he’ll be worth the $4.5 M he’s getting paid. His defensive numbers are out of line w/ his career norms but, he’s got a low threshold to meet.
We’re looking for a closer, apparently. This is discomfiting, to say the least. Names mentioned in Strauss’ article include trying to trade for J.J. Putz or Huston Street. I’ve discussed Street before. He’s ok – probably not as bad as a lot of people think but, to me, the only rational reason to replace Perez w/ Street is if we were going to market Perez as a chip in a trade for a young SS. Well, there’s no chance of that happening now so why don’t we just use Perez? He’s as good (or better) and cheaper.
Putz is a guy who people have feared for a few years that his arm was about to fall off and he missed more than a month last season with a hyperextended left elbow. When he pitches, he pitches well, at least prior to last season. To wit:
| IP | K/9 | BB/9 | HR/9 | TRA | TRA* | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2006 | 78.1 | 11.95 | 1.49 | 0.46 | 1.64 | 2.38 |
| 2007 | 71.2 | 10.30 | 1.63 | 0.75 | 2.91 | 3.16 |
| 2008 | 46.1 | 10.88 | 5.44 | 0.78 | 4.61 | 4.53 |
Putz stands to receive $8.6M this season -- the last year before he becomes a free agent. Do we really want to give him nearly $9M AND give Seattle a pretty good prospect or 2? Isn’t Perez just as good or almost as good for MUCH less money? Better yet, isn’t Perez AND Randy Johnson better than Putz and Mitch Boggs? It’s about the same money.
I was relieved to read in Bernie’s forum that the Cards don’t intend to get into a bidding war for type-A free agents (who were offered compensation, btw) K-Rod and Brian Fuentes. Goold a couple of days ago mentioned the Cards’ interest in Randy Wolf or (gulp!) Looper. If we were going to resign Looper, or were willing to do so, shouldn’t we have offered him arbitration? Inexplicable! As for Wolf – just say no. Wolf had a career year last year. Hell – the Astros recently backed off of Wolf b/c it appears as though he’s in line for something like a 3 year/$30 M deal. In the last 4 seasons, Wolf has thrown 80, 56.2, 102.2, and 190.1 innings, respectively. He’s thrown less than 430 innings over the last 4 seasons but happened to throw nearly 200 last year – when he was 31, btw – and is now looking for a 3 year deal. Don’t be stupid, Mo (and, contrary to popular belief, I don’t think he will be).
If we’re considering throwing nearly $9M and prospects at J.J. Putz, wouldn’t it make more sense to offer this guy a 2 year, $18 M deal? There may be some hostility to he-who-shall-not-be-named in these parts, but he could close and be dominant when he does. He’s a type-A free agent who wasn’t offered arbitration so he’d cost us no draft picks and be among the best closers in the NL. Sure, there’s an injury risk – he missed about 3 weeks last season – but Perez or Motte could step in for that time and get some experience in the role and not be too much of a step backward.
He was a 3 win player last season even w/ missing 3 weeks to injury. He struck out 11.4 batters per nine and walked just 2.4. He gave up 3 homers all season. His tra and tra* were 2.11 and 3.16, respectively, making him one of the best relievers in the big leagues and providing reason to think that success will continue. He does turn 32 in June but a 2 year contract wouldn’t leave the Cards exposed for the long-term. He wouldn’t solve the Cards’ SP woes since his contract would eat up much of what’s left but, to me, it’s a much better idea than trading valuable assets for the right to pay similar dollars to Street or Putz.
Maybe a __________________ (insert above closer’s name here) and Looper combo – if Looper signed for 1 or 2 years is palatable. Would Looper sign for 1 year in order to become a free agent next year when the market might be a little better? The Cards, apparently, thought the likelihood was high enough not to offer him arbitration. What about 1 year, $8 M for Looper and 2 years, $9 M for the reliever? We’re getting now into $110 M territory once we trade for the lefty reliever. Maybe it can be done. It’s more likely, isn’t it, that we resign Izzy for $4 - $6 M and stick him back there in the role? That’s a recipe for disaster, IMO. Pay the extra $3 M for Wood (DAMMIT!!!!!) or go w/ the kid (Perez).
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I'm all for Kerry Wood as the closer
but he’s not going to want to come to StL, is he?
I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck
I wouldn't mind Wood at all
And since the Cubs dumped him, I doubt he’d be against the Cards.
$$
Kerry will go to whomever will pay him. Loyalties fall out the door when the check stops coming. Jim Edmonds showed that last year when he played for the Cubbies.
"Wherever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai
why shouldn't Jimmy have played for the Cubs?
if we’re going to talk loyalty, we weren’t loyal to him — nor should we have been.
Yes we (the Cardinals) were.
He requested a trade to a So. Cal team and he got traded to the Padres.
Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.
And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!
I"m sick of the 'traitor' talk re: Edmonds
it’s fun on one level, but what would you expect of the guy? He was released outright, and got a chance to play somewhere. Not only play, but play for a contender. Why the hell shouldn’t he have signed with the cubs?
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
+1
Better to play for the Cubs than not at all
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 7, 2008 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
+1
Edmonds was/is a huge part of the Cardinals success and was a major part of a great era in Cards history. We should appreciate him for that. The Cardinals moved on, and so did he. We can’t fault him for that.
Not to mention that every productive year he has gets him that much closer to going to the Hall
wearing a Cardinal cap.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
I agree
the whole thing was so ridiculous. For some, by not choosing retirement, he was a traitor. As absurd as anything I’ve ever read or heard.
i was put off by the way he stared in to the cards' dugout
and told local reporters he was “done with st. louis”.
that would annoy me regardless of which team he played on.
although, he did look very wrong in a cubs uniform.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
As far as I can tell he has nothing against the fans
and is tired of the media bullshit written about him used to sell papers.
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 1:51 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly
Baseball is a business too. Guys want to go play where they are paid highest for their production.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 7, 2008 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
In some cases that would be true...
But I think there are a few players out there who don’t go for the biggest contract… probably why Sabathia hasn’t signed with the Yankees… and why Albert is still a Cardinal…
It's not what you do, It's who you do...
There are exceptions
to every case. But baseball is not only a game to these guys, it’s their livelihood. What’s to say CC isn’t just waiting around for someone to try and outbid the Yanks (doubtful) or for a SoCal team to at least match their offer? And Pujols hasn’t really had the opportunity to sign w/ another team yet in his career, and I doubt he ever does. But, the Cardinals will make sure to offer him a contract worthy of his production and of his approval. Not trying to create a debate here, just stating that in MOST cases MOST players want to sign to the best contract possible.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 7, 2008 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
Well...
I don’t blame the 99% of all of them… I’d do the same thing! I think they have to almost be making or have already made so much where money becomes something less significant and other priorities take over… sure sounds nice…
It's not what you do, It's who you do...
he'd be our 2008 JED
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
Tangent on reporting
I pretty much agree with your sentiments. Since we do have YP and Motte, does that mean that we might take on a greater injury risk with a closer? I am assuming that the risk reduces the price?
On a complete tangent… You brought up Strauss reporting potential names. I’ve always had mixed feelings about leaking of names and agreements before they are near final. On the one hand, I appreciate the PD and other folks who try to give timely info to us fans. On the other, I think leaking info might hurt Mo in his negotiations. I guess, I wish that they would just hold off before the deal is near done. I guess I don’t quite value the concept of being the “first to break the news”.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
K Wood
Money and risk aside, I would thoroughly enjoy watching Kerry, in a Card uniform, blister the Cubs just like Lou, Bruce and Lee Arthur Smith did.
I STILL can't get my mind around the fact that Kerry is no longer a Cub.....
He’s been with him since he was like 17……..weird. He comes across as a great guy and a fierce competitor. You know he has to be a hard worker, or he would have never made it back from his numerous injuries. I’d hope they’d at least look at him, ask what he wants, and how long. He’s too good to just completely ignore.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
It is weird not thinking of him as a Cubbie
I started following the Cards in 96’ (cut me some slack, I’m only 22), and Kerry Wood has been synonymous with the the Cubs pretty much since then. I remember the day he struck out 20 Expos and thinking that we were gonna be in trouble for a lot of years. Funny how things work out.
he struck out 20 Astros
and you call yourself a baseball fan,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
I like your ideas...
We are in much better shape already than we were in March last year. We could put a team on the field (pending Carp’s injury rehab and Ank’s? injury rehab) that is way more comforting than our rotating door MI and shotty relief (and starting, at times) pitching. There is some stability and flexibility in the lineup that we didn’t have. Greene should give the lineup more flexibility, particularly in the 6 through 9 hole area.
I’m not sure what needs to be done next. It seems as if it is growing more unlikely that Kennedy’s trade request will be accommodated. I don’t know where the Lopez offer stands, but with a supposedly solid defensively shortstop secure, I wouldn’t mind manning second with Lopez and trying to get something, ANYthing out of our own Mr. Kennedy. It does seem that he has a pretty good attitude about it though (although I don’t know that), and, at our present rate, he will get more of the playing time that he desires.
Out of all the scenarios that were listed in the post, I would agree that possibly the best option to pursue would be a Kerry Wood. IMO, a lefty reliever shouldn’t be such a huge priority, since we’re already in better shape in that department than last year, and potentially have 3 guys (Flores, Manning, Johnson?) that can fight for the 2nd LOOGY (Flores’ spot last year) position. Also, I wouldn’t mind seeing a Looper-type starting pitcher signed just so we’re not “cutting it so close”, but it seemed that waiting until nearly spring training worked out pretty well for us last year.
There are times that I would love MO’s job, but it would be nasty business to try and please everyone wouldn’t it?? I think he’s going about this off-season the right way. Sorry for the length of this.
I may only speak for myself here
but even if Johnson can’t yet move his left arm, I would still trust him to be the second lefty before I would ever want Flores back out there.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I’ve been disagreeing all over about Lopez vs Kennedy, might as well do it in this thread too :)
Kennedy career offense: .276/.328/.389 (87 OPS+)
Lopez career offense: .262/.330/.395 (89 OPS+)
Kennedy 2008 xBABIP offense “luck”: .006
Lopez 2008 xBABIP offense “luck”: .037
Kennedy 2009 Marcel wOBA projection: .295
Lopez 2009 Marcel wOBA projection: .315
Kennedy 2008 2B Inaz defense (STL): +15.7
Lopez 2008 2B Inaz defense (WAS): -3.8
Kennedy 2009 CHONE defense projection: +6
Lopez 2009 CHONE defense projection: -5
Kennedy: on the books for one year at a fixed rate
Lopez: represented by Scott Boras and seeking a multi-year deal
I also disagree with the sentiment of going low-defense now that we have projected defense. Ditto offense, if that were the case. More defense is always good, more offense is always good!
by astrostl on Dec 7, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Mo should
reconsider moving Kennedy, even if it means eating part of his contract. His defense while excellent, seems like an aberration, and his babip actually outperformed his xbabip, albeit slightly. So it seems as though he will regress on two areas of his game. Frankly, that would make him not good.
One way to save a few bucks would be to non-tender miles, who also exceeded his BABIP over his xbabip by nearly 11%. I have nothing against grit, but he’s about 5 runs below average at second, around 11 at short and his value at the plate is related almost entirely to his batting average, which will probably take a nice hit this next season. So you’re looking at a defensive negative who should post somewhere around a .280/320/338 type line. Can you find an available player who is better for less money?
one note, you haven’t removed worrell from your roster matrix.
Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.
Yes!
Non-tender Miles, bring in the Hoff to play 2B against lefties and use the savings to pay for most of the Izzy to Wood upgrade cost.
by mikedallas45 on Dec 7, 2008 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
reconsider moving Kennedy, even if it means eating part of his contract. His defense while excellent, seems like an aberration, and his babip actually outperformed his xbabip, albeit slightly. So it seems as though he will regress on two areas of his game. Frankly, that would make him not good.
CHONE projects Kennedy as +6 in 2009 – “These are based on 5 years of data from 2004-2008, weighted 1, .8, .6, .4, .2. The numbers are a combination of Stats ZR, Revised Zone rating, and Totalzone”
In 2008 he was projected as 4, and ended up with a TotalZone of +7. I don’t know the exact post-analysis of the projection for 2008 because I don’t have their “average” ZR or RZR. Anyway, the projection is still quite positive (6 TotalZone would be good for seventh place at 2B in 2008) and it encompasses several years of data, not just a potentially lucky year.
As for xBABIP outperformance, I don’t think a 2.05% variation – in either direction – is worth mentioning.
Kennedy's career UZR
is +9.8 runs above average per 150 games — about 1 win per season (if playing a full season) defensively. He is a plus-defender, to be sure. It may be too much to expect him to be as good next year as he was last year, but he’s probably worth his salary defensively, if he can just be replacement-level at the plate.
by chuckb on Dec 7, 2008 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
TLR
But LaRussa will platoon Kennedy with Miles. Take it to the bank. I don’t blame the situation on Kennedy but it’s the reality of it. We have a $4.5 million platoon 2B with above average defense and a below replacement level bat. I understand the organization feels it has bigger problems to address at other positions and the only way to improve at 2B is to first get a team to eat most of Kennedy’s salary. JMo seems to be the master at unloading disgruntled players so we’ll see if he can work some magic.
Miles was non-tendered and Kennedy’s trade request allegedly came because of the uncertainty of his position. If they pay money for the privilege to platoon they also seem to risk the possibility of Kennedy holding his breath over frustration with the move. I think that would be bad business, Mo handles the business, and I think he’s done a very good job of it so far.
If Mo can do something that gives us an upgrade at 2B without eating it, though – great!
Miles
has not been non-tendered. I made this mistake the other day as well, the team has until the 12th to offer Arb. to grit.
Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.
Cot's Contracts info
If I am reading his contract info correctly, Grit earned an extra 200k for reaching 400 PA. 2008 Salary + Performance Bonus = $1.6 M. I think the arbitration could push his salary closer to $ 2.5 M just based on his extra year of mlb time.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/todays-non-tend.html claims it to be true: “Aaron Miles is now a free agent.” Source uncited, presume it’s because of something conversational. I would be surprised if he gets an offer by the deadline, but hey.
I'm not sure
if I’m following this conversation, but that link is from last year. The Cards do have until the 12th to decide if they want to keep him around for 2009. It’s going to be a very exciting day.
Even if they non-tender
Miles, it really does not mean that much. They non-tendered him in 2007 and then resigned him anyway. Miles is TLR’s little buddie. Although I think our reserve middle infielder should be able to play both 2B and SS (and Miles has the range of a chair with wheels at SS … not the motorized kind mind you), Tony will kick and scream at JMo to bring Miles back. And if Miles is on the bench, you can just pencil him in for 400 ABs. Those will come mainly at 2B.
Looks like Berkman and Pujols are tied at 10.4 UZR/150 on the 2008 leaderboard. Huh?
Fielding Bible says Pujols > Teixeira > Kotchman > Pena > Berkman.
RZR says Pujols > Teixeira > Berkman.
When I first saw this, I read it as an argument as to the consistency of the defensive metrics
There are error bars on these things. When everyone is mostly bunched between -10 and +10 runs, the rankings are much less important than whether a guys is closer to -10 or +10. A difference of a few runs is insignificant.
Contrast that to hitting, where a few runs is still insignificant but everyone is more spread out. The range is more like -20 runs to +50 runs.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
It’s not an argument or a criticism, just an observation. SS, for example:
Fielding Bible: Rollins has 88 voting points (1st), Cabera has 40 (6th)
RZR: Tejada is .879 (1st), Cabrera is .834 (11th)
Inaz: Scutaro is +20.5 field (1st), Cabrera is +2.4
PMR: Scutaro has a 110.16 out ratio (1st), Cabrera 101.14 (19th)
I included spreads as well as ranks, and per those metrics it would seem that O-Cab is not a top tier defensive shortstop. He ties Rollins for the lead in UZR/150, though, which I find surprising. I don’t necessarily assume alignment on anything, but in this case UZR appears to be a notable outlier. And I’m not even saying UZR is wrong, I’m just curious about the seemingly large difference in conclusions.
It also seems at a glance that the infield – high overlap territory – has the most notable UZR conclusions. It would be interesting to me if it were found that the higher granularity of data required for and utilized by UZR (mentioned in this THT article for example) is borderline necessary for decent results, lest adjacent fielders (or nobody) be incorrectly credited or debited for someone else’s work.
Earlier today I ran into THIS post (linked from Tango) at Chone’s blog:
There have been occasions where I’ve been privy to some of that work that’s going on in front offices and it simply blows away things you’d call the state of the art in sabermetrics. Not a little ahead — a lot.
True? False? Dunno. Fascinating world out there.
Why wouldn't it be
There’s millions in it for teams to know defense better than some guy doing it for (more or less) fun. Millions goes a long way.
Not afraid to nitpick
This is from
a post from Will Caroll at BP. I would hope that Chone or Tango credited it accordingly.
just to be clear
I wasn’t suggesting Kennedy would be a negative next season defensively, just that chances are he wouldn’t match 2008 performance. offensively, he’ll be as close to replacement level. If you want to be creative, I think you can improve the position. Try Ryan Roberts, Jason Nix would have been worth a chance, Willy Harris could be a nice pick up, Alfreda Amezaga would come cheaply from the marlins. Basically what I’m saying is when you’re dealing with a player above one win over replacement, an upgrade wouldn’t be hard to come by if you’re willing to be creative.
Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.
2nd Base
So Kennedy’s in his walk year? Why shouldn’t we just keep him? If he wants to get paid he’ll have to put up some good numbers right?
It's not what you do, It's who you do...
Correction to matrix
Worrell ain’t in Memphis anymore. Need to fix the bottom right hand corner for the next RHP out of Memphis on the depth chart
Discussion
What would Cardinals be able to get by trying to move Duncan? His upswing has declined significantly over the last few seasons. He’s a liablity in the field, obviously, so any potential suitor would primarily be the American League where they could use him as a DH. Pitching help would be ideal, but I honestly don’t know what we could haul in for him…
"Wherever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai
Dunc...
It seems to me that Duncan has very little value to us and virtually no value to anyone else. I think he’s more valuable to us right now and in the future if we hold on to him, play him a little this year to make sure he can still play. If he shows he can, he’ll be much more valuable trading bait for next off-season, or even trade deadline material.
And if he can't...
If he shows he can, he’ll be much more valuable trading bait for next off-season, or even trade deadline material.
And if he shows that he can’t play, he’ll still get more time on the field than he deserves.
Testicle-exploding shit storm, circa 7/12/08 - We will never forget!
by dan on Dec 7, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
Look at it this way
If you were an opposing GM, what would you trade for a player coming off an unprecedented back surgery who hasn’t proven that he can a) produce at all or b) stay healthy following said surgery?
If you said anything more than a worthless prospect, you’re only qualified to be the GM of the Giants.
Dunc’s upside is far more valuable than the next-to-nothing we could get for him right now.
Jenks
Sox seem to be in dealing mode. How about Bobby Jenks. Cards need to get a horse down there to stabilize the bullpen.
As for Kennedy, I think they have fixed that problem by getting Khalil as the a MIF with some pop. Allows them to leave Kennedy in there as the good field/no hit guy. Problem with Kennedy was that the SS position was terrible last year.
I expect Looper back for 2-3 year deal $5-7 per year.
Still like to see them take a shot at Peavy. Can’t have enough great pitching.
Re-sign Springer and sign Ankiel to a long term deal.
Jenk's
Strike out rate has been on the decline for several years, I don’t know exactly what to make of it, but I heard that it scared the mets away earlier. also as HC outlines here there is no need to trade for a closer when there are so many on the market.
Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.
A couple of things about trading for Jenks I don't like
First, as Dave points out, his strikeouts have been in decline as well as his velocity. He’s always had injury concerns and they still pop up from time to time. He’s not the same pitcher as he was in 2005.
Second, I really don’t want to deal with Kenny Williams. He’s about as shrewd of a dealer as there is. I can’t think of one trade he’s made in the last couple of years that didn’t totally favor the White Sox. Not that I think he’s dishonest or is magical or something, I just think he’s extremely talented and is much more prepared than any other gm in baseball. He’s like a modern day Walt Jocketty, IMO.
Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.
And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!
Brad Penny
I’d love us to take a flier on Penny for a one year deal (which I believe is all he’s seeking at this point). He’s the typical Duncan reclamation project. I think I’d even be willing to pay him a little more if its only a one year deal. His upside is something that would be a shame to pass on.
Big time groundballer if nothing else
Though surprisingly he definitely doesn’t throw anything resembling a sinker according to PITCHf/x.
Not afraid to nitpick
Is the problem with the payroll that
we seem to be paying a lot of people (not named Albert) what they are worth? Ludwick and Molina seem to be the only real bargains.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 7, 2008 12:26 PM EST reply actions
When Carpenter is Healthy
I’d say he’s a bargain at $14mm, especially on a staff as thin as ours…
"Wherever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai
So, what you're saying is
Carpenter is way overpaid since he hasn’t been healthy in two years and doesn’t really look to be healthy for any extended period of time ever again.
Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.
And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!
That's about the nuts and bolts of it
Although my way was nicer :)
"Wherever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai
That was 100th post in a week!
I’ve posted 100 times in one week – I can’t decide if that is good, or pathetic
"Wherever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai
It's easy
I’ve only been on here a week, and my posts say 100
"Wherever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai
ive been here for a year or two...
and i didnt even know it tracked how many posts you made
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
I agree.
The 100 posts are a little bit of both, but tracking it is totally pathetic. Nothing good about it….. ;-)
Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.
And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!
I think I have a few posts on here
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 7, 2008 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
with Mulder and Izzy gone
it’s not as bad as last year. Right now, Carp’s is the only real albatross, w/ Pineiro’s and Kennedy’s just being a little high. I’m afraid Carp’s contract is going to haunt us til the end.
Right, but I said paying what they are worth
you pointed out above that if Adam Kennedy plays to what you predicted he would, he’d be worth $4.5M. We seem to have a lot of guys like that. For something as marginal as 2 WAR from a 2B, shouldn’t we be underpaying that. In that scenerio, if they guy blew, we’d wouldn’t be overpaying. If he produced at that level, we’d be covered financially.
It just seems like a team that is paying a lot of guys exactly what they are worth and was 12 games out of first in their division isn’t getting any better.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 7, 2008 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Kennedy was still the 16th-best 2B in the game last year per Inaz. Upgrades can be tough at 2B.
Kelly Johnson was a notable marginal improvement over Kennedy at 13th place – the same point difference between Kennedy and Miles, for example. He is on the market and the Cards have expressed interest, so I imagine we’ll see how that goes pretty soon.
There’s also Fontenot with a breakout year for the Cubs. I haven’t heard of him being explicitly available, but they still have DeRosa. If the Cubs strip their farm system of Vitters in a Peavy trade we could reload them somehow. Doubt they’d be interested in a nearly-ready 3B with Freese because of A-Ram blocking, but the hearsay is that they’re virtually barren in youth.
As the main article here reflects, I imagine it would be trades and not cash IF we do anything at 2B.
I'd be ok with getting fontenot...
but do we ever trade with the scrubs? not often…
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 7, 2008 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
They kinda shy away
since Lou Brock…
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." -Rogers Hornsby
nice
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 7, 2008 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Cards may want to bring back Broglio in case Carp's arm woes do not excatly clear up as predicted.
Thinks the Cubs DFA’d Broglio recently
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
i see what your saying
but as far as 2nd and SS that’s pretty much the case around the league it would seem. you just don’t find that many players at those positions that are bargains to the level that ludwick and molina are.
and i assume you were only talking about position players because wellemeyer and wainwright are both bargains.
oh, and don’t forget about albert, the biggest bargain of them all.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
Pineiro's contract
a little high? Maybe it’s just me but the opportunity cost of having to keeping him on the roster because of his contract is a high price to pay. look at zips projection for next year.
ERA W L G GS Inn H ER HR BB K
Jess Todd 4.75 5 6 24 18 110.0 117 58 15 38 58
P.J Walters 4.90 8 10 31 28 158.0 170 86 20 64 102
Mitch Boggs 5.31 6 10 26 25 144.0 163 85 17 65 74
Tyler Herron 5.36 6 9 28 23 131.0 152 78 20 44 60
Joel pinata 5.45 4 6 19 16 99.0 118 60 14 30 51
So we’re paying him 7.5Million dollars to block guys who are better options, that’s pretty high.
Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.
You'd probably agree with this...
…but the worst thing about Carp’s extension is that it didn’t need to be done. He was still under control for another couple of seasons, and he’s got a very long injury history, with some of those injuries occurring BEFORE they signed the extension. Just a silly, silly move.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 7, 2008 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Carp’s contract is going to haunt us til the end.
Seemed like a good idea at the time.
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
unless Carp wins Cy Young this year
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 1:33 AM EST up reply actions
$15m a year for a top tier starting pitcher isn't bad
unless there’s reason to believe that the pitcher will get injured.
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
He was certainly an increased injury risk
and we had him under control for another year. I was just never a fan of the deal but I’ve been wrong on other deals so that dart just happened to hit the board.
i don't know the answer to this question
so don’t think it is snarky, but how many $15M/year contracts for starting pitchers have worked out well for the teams that signed the pitchers? And vice versa?
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
Looking at it from a 1YR perspective
Schumaker Ankiel Mather Rasmus Freese Wainwright Perez McClellan? Just at a glance.
Ludwick, Molina, Ankiel, Pujols, Greene, Glaus, Schumaker
That’s 7/8 of the position players. Sure, Greene’s only a small deal (paid about 1 WAR too cheap).
Y’all need to realize that your position players are amongst the best in the game.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
scratch Schumaker
and replace w/ Rasmus. Or trade Ankiel for something young and valuable, and replace w/ Rasmus. Either way, Rasmus needs to be in there.
I'd like to keep all 4 of them unless we get a great offer
Ankiel and Ludwick are somewhat injury prone, and Rasmus may have an adjustment period. Schumaker is a nice little player who won’t whine if he’s not playing everyday.
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
thanks
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 7, 2008 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Y’all need to realize that your position players are amongst the best in the game.
Sometimes I feel like I’m the only one who thinks this. :(
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
I do have a hell of a time reminding people of this
Just because nobody on the team matches up to Pujols, people seem to have completely missed that our offense was something of a juggernaut last year. Glaus is completely overlooked. It’s odd.
Frankly, I’d just love to see a bullpen that doesn’t blow half their saves. Just adding a shut-down closer to the 2008 team probably puts us somewhat in the thick of things in the division.
And if Carp were healthy…sigh. Well, I can dream, can’t I?
Whoah
it just hit me, Eddie Guardado. The guy has 187 career saves, he throws left handed, and still was an above average pitcher at 108 tRA+. Plus, who would ever charge the mound on Eddie Guardado.
Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.
40-man roster
What’s the advantage of adding guys like Matthew Scherer to the 40-man roster now? Also guys like Garcia (who’s out for the year with injury, right?) and Hawksworth, whom, if I’m not mistaken, we haven’t seen in a Cards uni. I just don’t know how this works. Couldn’t we clear those sort of guys off and fill the 40 man just before S.T?
The Rule 5 draft...
I have to think they’re trying to protect those guys from the Rule 5 draft. They must not be ready to cut bait on Hawksworth yet.
by mattisnotfrench on Dec 7, 2008 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
I am.
Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.
And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!
Kennedy's always been
a very good defender. UZR loves him. Also, some of that money you guys are including is deferred.
i don't know if i can pull for Wood
but stuff like this makes it easier especially if he closes out a game that put those wee little bears out of the playoff hunt.
since it’s clear the only reason YP or Apple Sauce aren’t the closers is because TLR & Dunk want a vet or whoever else, anyone else, with one or two healthy arms but those two closing. i’d rather them sign IZZY to an incentive laden one yr deal. (our choices might be IZZY or Wood? i think i just threw up i my mouth a little. no,,wait,,,,yes,,yes i did.)
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Why is that clear?
You say, "since it’s clear the only reason YP or Apple Sauce aren’t the closers is because TLR & Dunk want a vet or whoever else, anyone else, with one or two healthy arms but those two closing. " Where do you get that idea?
by abothecardinal on Dec 7, 2008 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
from Duncan speaking on 590 last week
where he said they wanted an estaiblished closer…
Though he also said that he was open to having Perez, Motte, and Franklin compete for the job in spring training.
you'd rather have Izzy
than Wood? huh?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 7, 2008 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, but i'm not happy about it
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Ozzie Guillen if i remember correctly
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
I thought he was out in the bullpen when it happened
and he was flipping off one of the outfielders. I don’t know though. Could have been Ozzie, but I’m pretty sure I heard some people on the radio here in Chicago, saying it was a big joke. Which is probably true. I know I’ve flipped off my friends countless times as a joke. It happens.
Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.
And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!
Who cares anyway
Carpenter drops(ed…unhappy face) the biggest F-bombs in history on a regular basis.
Not afraid to nitpick
if we are going after a closer
I’d advocate Kerry Wood
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 7, 2008 2:09 PM EST reply actions
I'm on board with that
I bet he would really like to stick it to the small bears after they showed him the door. A bullpen with three guys who can pump it in there at 98+ wouldn’t be too shabby either.
exactly
we’d have our own contemporary nasty boys… just think how much fun it would be to name that terrible trio… you could go with a jazz slant, such as the Wood Motte Perez Trio, or something.
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 7, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah we'd definitely hafta think of something
badass if we had that trio. I get goosebumps just thinking about it. Too bad TLR would try to squeeze Franklin in there whenever possible. He is a proven veteran, you know.
Ah what a night
I will never forget that game for as long as I live. Awesome, just awesome. I definitely didn’t recall Flores getting the W that night. Just another improbable aspect of our 2006 World Series run.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
anybody have the beltran K?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Vote Fore More Wood in 2009
It’s not an add for Viagra
"Wherever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai
Not trading Kennedy and re-signing Izzy
would be like driving a car on two spare tires….you’re not going to go very far.
It just drives me crazy thinking both of these guys could be Cardinals in 2009.
At some point if this team wants to compete again they need to get rid of the old worn out clothes and get fitted for a new suit (and not the most expensive one mind you). As of today we are still wearing 4th place clothes and are only going to sew patches on the holes hoping that they don’t rip any more. I know times are tough but must we keep shopping at Goodwill when we could at least move up to Sears????
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
YOUNG PITCHER!
Wood is just so damn expensive. Starters are much more valuable, so i’d rather get more innings/$ spending on johnson/pettite.
I don't understand
the reluctance to go after R. Johnson. He’s a solid, lefthanded, one year stopgap that would create excitement across the fanbase and would most definitely put butts in the seats. There has to be something more to the situation.
If it is
a payroll issue, which seems to be the conclusion thus far, then there needs to be an effort to reduce payroll in order to fit his salary in.
Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.
It's going to interesting
to see what Mo does this week at the Winter Meetings. I have a feeling Brad Penny will be a Cardinal in the near future. Just my gut. I wouldn’t be opposed to that, as long as it’s a reasonal incentive based 1 year deal. Surely we aren’t going to sign any more pitchers to multi-year deals, right?
I kind
of want someone to convince me Penny would be worth a flier, because when I look through his stats I can’t find anything that suggest he will be a serviceable pitcher.
Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.
oh yeah
I’d much prefer getting a starting pitcher… it will be interesting to see how Moz addresses the issue
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 7, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
the $ really isn't the issue with Wood, it's the years.
That’s why the cubs didn’t sign him. If we could take a one year contract on Wood, I would say sure. But why tie ourselves down for three or four years (what’s he’s looking for and will likely get) at a position of relative strength?
I don’t know that spending at closer makes sense, but I think if we do, Hoffman is a better option for a one-year deal.
that would make a hell of a lot of sense.
my only concern is that, historically, texas has been where talent goes to die. if I were Wood, the rangers would need to pay me much more than the nearest competitor to play there. You would have to do it for the money and not for any hope of playing on a contender.
Yeah.
But I think most ownerships do their jobs in selling themselves to the players. “All we need is you and we can make a run at this thing.” Etc.
Texas is near his home. They sure could use a closer....
they have a brand spankin’ new pitching coach in Mike Maddux and Nolan Ryan is going to be more hands on with the pitching decision. They have a boatload of young talent at various stages of development, and I actually think it would be a good move for the Rangers to have someone like Wood around who’s been there, done that.
He’d figure out how to adjust to that park and he’d be a fan favorite and a great role model.
Now I just talked myself into having the Cardinals pass on Wood. Let him go home. Let him feel the Texas love……
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Since we're on the topic of high profile ex-cubbies,
why dont we just go all in and signthis guy as well. I know we already played injured starting pitcher roulette with abysmal success last year, but how great would it be to have both of those guys helping us to leapfrog the cubs.
Prior
Mark Prior has no prayer of ever rebounding. Ever. His arm has been sliced and diced so many times that I’m willing to bet it will never work properly again. The guy hasn’t pitched in a major league game since 2006. It would be like taking a flyer on Mark Mulder.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 7, 2008 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Looking at that Matrix
it’s pretty obvious that Carpenter is the weight that is sinking this ship. That my friends was Walt’s worst move as our GM. He has a full year before he had to talk about a contract with him…but he couldn’t wait. Oh well. Every team goes through one of these sunk deals I guess…but this one will hurt us for a few more years I’m afraid. I just hope Carp can give us a few good games over the next year or two so we feel some of that money went to something.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
is the ship really sinking?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 7, 2008 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
no, but
what could we do with an extra 15M$?
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
CC?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 1:35 AM EST up reply actions
A lot
A lot. A lot. A lot. A lot. A lot. A lot. A lot. A lot.A lot. A lot. A lot. A lot. A lot. A lot.
Man, I’d love to have another $15 million to spend right now.
With $15 million to spend, not only could we sign back Carp to an incentive-laden shorter deal, but we could spend the money elsewhere. It’d be win-win — we could have our cake and eat it, too.
Maybe not sinking
but tredding water? That might sound a little better. To me two years in a row of not making the playoffs to me isn’t really riding the high tide. Sure we’re not completely sunk like the Pirates….but I don’t see us as the favorite to win the Central next season. At least not to where we can compete with the Cubs (who will probably get Peavy this week). And because of Carp’s contract we can’t really go all out to get a guy like Peavy. That was my “the weight that is sinking this ship” was referring to.
No biggie, I guess the Cubs deserve to make the playoffs for a few more years, we had our run. Hey we have the All-Star game to look forward to this year. At least that’s someting.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
I mean I know it's different with hitters/pitchers
But Pujols got signed 3 years before he would’ve been a FA (and that even undersells benefit of going year to year). I’m going to totally make something up but 3 years of risk with any hitter is probably about the same risk as 1 year with a pitcher…
Jus’ sayin.
Not afraid to nitpick
It's hard to jump on that one after the fact
but we just crapped out on signing a top-tier pitcher. Unless you’re just arguing that we shouldn’t go and sign top tier pitchers to long-term contracts, I don’t see how we avoid deals like that in the future.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
so....
does this mean that kennedy is probably staying put and will play the last year of his contract here? if so, will he be “the starter” or just another 3 million bench player? seems like a waste doesn’t it? maybe if he plays well for a couple of months, Mo can trade him before the july 31st deadline…
check out my blog: Redbird Ramblings
Mo, please go get Nick Punto!
waiting for the 2009 season to begin and colby rasmus to patrol centerfield!
I'm afraid we're going to see this horror movie to the bitter end.
Maybe it will end with a shoot-out between Tony and Kennedy. Somebody will be killed off so there is no way there will be a sequel to this box office bomb. Pass the popcorn….
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
I think we're in a pretty good position
because if the right deal doesn’t surface (kelly johnson anyone?), Mozeliak can just go with Kennedy as the starter, and I think it’s been proven that he’s really not that bad…. and there’s only one more year of him, so even if the right deal doesn’t surface, we can address the issue in the next offseason
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 7, 2008 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
But will Tony play him as the starter?
When a guy publicly asks for a trade and he doesn’t get traded there is going to be some uncomfortable egos in the locker room plus will our manager still want to play him? If Miles is still on the team I think we know that answer to this.
I’m not so sure I would say we’re in a pretty good position. But the good thing is there is only one more year left of this….which is good I guess.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
that's the thing
is if they don’t trade AK, then they should be starting him… Miles doesn’t hit that much better than AK (if at all?)
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 7, 2008 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
I agree ...but what should happen
and what Tony does are two different things..as we all know. But I know what you’re saying.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
I'm sure Moz could override TLR
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 7, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
But Moz non-tendered Miles last year
(to universal applause here), and then re-signed him. I’d love to know if that move was TLR’s doing. I’m just afraid of it happening again.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 7, 2008 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, we're going to be in trouble if we get no new 2b,
and we find out that Kennedy’s 08 was the fluke and he posts another .580 OPS. Miles was not badly spent money.
If Miles is on the roster
MO will not really have any say about how often he plays.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Miles, being a switch-hitter
is much better against LHPs than AK. Not sure if he is enough better to actually play, but he is better. Miles should never 2B play against RHPs as long as Kennedy is available. I’d rather seen a league minimum guy take on the Miles role, but I don’t have any good candidates in mind. Anyone?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
you mean internally or around the league?
I think ryan, barden, t. greene, and probably craig have to get a look in ST. around the league . . . not sure.
the solution
put Brendan Ryan in the utility spot. tony doesn’t seem to like him or kennedy. BTW marcells projection for miles wOBA in 09’ 308, Ryan’s is .317
Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.
HC, are we on the same page this off season or what?
Isn’t Perez just as good or almost as good for MUCH less money? Better yet, isn’t Perez AND Randy Johnson better than Putz and Mitch Boggs? It’s about the same money.
I agree completely.
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
from your lips to MO's ears
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
Not the same money
Putz is only $5 million in 2009, not $8.6.
Let's look at supply and demand
for closers
Toronto-B.J Ryan
Boston-Papelbon
New York A-Rivera
Baltimore-Chris Ray
Tampa Bay-Percival
Minnesota-Joe Nathan
Chicago-jenks
Detroit-open
Cleveland- open
Kansas city-Soria
Texas-Fransisco
Seattle-Putz
LAA- Arrendeno
Oakland-devine/zeigler
Mets-open
Philly-Lidge
Atlanta-Gonzolez
Florida-Lindstrom
Milwaukee-open
Chicago-Gregg
Cincinnati-Cordero
Houston-Valverde
Pittsburgh-Capps
San Fransisco-Wilson
Dodgers-Broxton
San Diego-open
arizona-Qualls
So it’s Cleveland, Detroit, NY Mets, Milwaukee, and the Padres.
The padres with their constraints, will look within rather than spend money on a free agent acquisition. So it leaves around four teams, five if you include St louis.
Rodriguez, Fuentes, Wood and Hoffman are the front line choices. Lyon, Izzy, Cordero, Akinori Otsuka are more of the flier guys at this point.
Since It only needs to be a short term type of investment, My money says there will be a legitimate closer without a job when spring training comes, we keep looking for that Lohse type contract within the starting pitchers ranks, I’ll bet that pitcher will be a closer
Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.
I think it was Stark...
…who wrote an article saying that more closers are available than there are spots. I think that article and your post here confirms that. I mean, really, what is the market for K-Rod or Fuentes? There are only 5 teams who need closers, and as you said several of the teams can’t get one of those two guys. I wouldn’t be shocked to see either settle for a relatively small contract.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 7, 2008 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
I can see
K-Rod going to the Mets and Fuentes going to the Tigers. Which would leave us fighting with the Indians and Brewers for Wood. And I think the Indians would win that fight. So I can see us or the Brewers getting Hoffman. But I suspect we will settle with Izzy. Uugh!
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
The Yankees are one team I could
see dropping some coin on one of these guys. They will need a Rivera replacement pretty soon, and they’re not reluctant to spend the $$$.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 7, 2008 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah but these guys have egos
Not many closers are going to want to go not close no matter the money.
Not afraid to nitpick
Me confused...
Why Pettitte but not Johnson? Johnson is, was, and always will be better. I think a Waino, Wellemeyer, Johnson, Lohse, Pinata sounds respectable, and it sounds even better if Pinata was out of there and Carp was in. At worst, that’s one very good, one pretty good, two very respectable pitchers in the rotation. Anyway, it’s better than crossing their fingers on Carp AGAIN.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 7, 2008 4:02 PM EST reply actions
Deferred money in the Matrix
Here is a list of players with deferred money for 09
Pujols – $3 M till 2020
Carpenter – $2 M till 2020
I highly doubt deferred money will count against 09’s payroll under normal accounting practices.
So that frees up another $5 M for the Club. So that many the Club has closer to $15 to $20 M to spend still.
Stat Whore
teams do count it against their payroll
whether they should or not is a different matter. But they do, probably to artificially inflate how much they’re truly spending this year. Still, they all do it.
I have a hard time believing
That they count it internally on this year’s budget. Why would any business consider a debt that is due in 12 years on their current budget. I think they might tell the public it is on their year’s budget but internally it is such a ridiculous notion to me, especially since it is interest free.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 7, 2008 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
It's something that has been discussed many
many times and this is simply how the team does it. Otherwise, in 2020, the payroll would be $5 M short because of 47 year old Albert Pujols playing for the Havana Marlins.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 7, 2008 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
The Cardinals count deferred money
towards this years payroll.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 7, 2008 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
How is the money due
Spezio and Mulder for buyouts allocated by the team? Do they consider that sunk cost for ’08 or is it allocated to ’09?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Geez
looking at this matrix, it makes me even more upset how much we’re paying Lohse and Pineiro right now.
On with the (good) youth movement!
Just looking at the headlines at the P-D.
Mo is checking into the Bellagio. What are the chances he makes no trades, but instead pulls off an “ocean’s 11” heist," and the cards have a $250M budget for the year?
Chicago Tribune going bankrupt
Looks like the Chicago Tribune is about to go bankrupt. I wonder what kind of effect this will have on the Cubs spending.
Stat Whore
not sure
but tonight on the news they said that the team won’t be sold until around spring training… which can’t really be a good thing for the cubs.
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 1:37 AM EST up reply actions
Are you sure
You didn’t misread the headline, and it didn’t say “Cubs Broke”, but rather “Cubs Choke”? Because, honestly, that could be from, damn, anytime between 1908 and now…
"Wherever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai
by brik on Dec 7, 2008 10:54 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
you have a lot of pent up anger then
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 1:37 AM EST up reply actions
They are terrible at baseball
*They both are overpaid by baseball standards
*They both cost us the playoff last year
*They both are big whiny babies that blame their problems on their teammates and have no accountability
After watching them suck for better part of 5 years it’s hard not to wish horrible things upon them and their loved ones.
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 1:55 AM EST up reply actions
When did Franklin blame the teammates?
Every time I saw him on a postgame or something, he looked like he took sole responsibility for his poor performance.
+1
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2008 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
The entire time he was giving up 5-6 runs a game in Seattle
He blamed his losing on the bad offense.
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
he did do it once late in the season if I recall correctly
it was one of those low-ish scoring games where he gave up a run late and they lost like 3-2 or something. He insinuated that the bullpen didn’t lose the game, the offense did.
Of course I might have been intoxicated by that point in the season and just thought that is what he said.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
whoah! the only thing either of them ever did was accept a lot of money offered to them.
and pitch up to what is probably their potentials. it is not Piniero’s fault he’s not adam wainwright. if the cardinals knock on my door and say they’ll pay me $9M to pitch for them, I’m taking the cash, whether I’ve earned it or not. We should be angry at the front office.
Instead of internalizing this rage, create a personal mantra, “Do not sign talent to big contracts based on half a season’s performance. Do not sign talent to big contracts based on half a season’s performance.”
by tom s. on Dec 8, 2008 2:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I hated him before he was a Cardinal. The stupid contract makes me hate him more.
by JI on Dec 8, 2008 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
2007 must have killed you,
watching him go out there and be a bullpen ace…
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
No, if somehow he plays well I can't bitch about that
When he blows 3 games in a week and torpedoes our playoff hopes I try to punch holes in the wall.
by JI on Dec 9, 2008 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
Piniero frustrated me more than Franklin
He always would say that he didn’t pitch badly, but that he made “one or two bad pitches”. It just always seemed like those one or two bad pitches would turn a 2-1 lead into a 4-2 deficit. And the pointing at his teammates when they made a bad play in the field is ridiculous. They never called him out after he hung a changeup for a three run bomb.
Franklin, to me, was a victim of misuse. He should have been strictly on mop up duty. It’s not his fault TLR thinks he’s a setup man. And I never saw him throw his teammates under the bus. I think he will be a key component in the mentoring of our young bullpen this year. I just hope TLR doesn’t anoint him the setup man again this year. I wanna drink a Franklin right now just thinking about it.
Sounds like Mo looked into getting Peavy again
but decided to let the Cubs have him. That’s really nice of Mo. Maybe he can buy breakfast for Hendry while they’re in Vegas as well. It’s always good to do favors for the teams above us. At least we didn’t trade Rasmus.
From Joe Strauss:
General manager John Mozeliak and much of the Cardinals’ front office arrived at baseball’s winter meetings Sunday evening with the two-time defending NL Central champion Cubs the apparent favorite to add Peavy to an already imposing rotation.
Rather than attempt to hijack the potential Padres-Cubs deal by making available top prospect Colby Rasmus, Mozeliak plans to devote much of the next 48 hours to chatting up agents.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
If the cost of acquiring Peavy is as high as what was rumored to be headed out of Atlanta...
Cards fans should be happy if he goes to Chicago. Peavy is really overrated. A very good pitcher, but nowhere near what his raw 2.75 ERA implies. Heck, if you put a league-average pitcher in PETCO, he’ll post an ERA under 4.00. Peavy’s more of a 3.25 to 3.50 ERA guy. And while he’s relatively cheap in 2009 ($8MM), he’ll make an average of $17MM from 2010 through 2013. Considering that’s similar to what free agents like Lowe, Burnett, and Sheets will sign for, those seasons aren’t really worth giving up players of value.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
And that, I think is the point
there are just so many quality pitchers on the FA market this offseason that it would be a bad idea to give up anything to go and chase Peavy, who would be about the third or fourth best option were he to be a FA this offseason.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Putz not as expensive
I may have missed a correction, but Putz is owed $5 million for 2009 and has a club option for $8.6 million for 2010 not as stated in the lead article.
I’m not advocating a trade but that is a substantial difference.
Per MLBTradeRumors
Braves interested in Rick Ankiel among others.
http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/12/braves_eyeing_outfielders.html
by iwannarock24 on Dec 8, 2008 5:33 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
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