Khalil
by DanUpBaby on Dec 5, 2008 12:54 PM EST
233 comments
Count me extremely happy with this move, especially as the details continue to roll in; it is a good deal for the Cardinals, and a great deal for Mozeliak.
More important, perhaps, than anything else is that the Cardinals have acquired a creditable shortstop—filling their most gaping hole—without using the majority of their payroll or their top few trading chits. The player they traded, Mark Worrell, was one of my favorites, but he was about as far out of the Cardinals' plans as a guy who strikes out 80 people in 58 AAA innings has ever been and had, in a remarkably odd coincidence, that very day talked with Scout.com about how he wanted to be traded.
That's what makes it such a coup for Mozeliak, providing that none of their scarce starting depth is Named Later—not only did he deal from a positional surplus, he did it in such a way that it did not affect La Russa and Duncan's plans at all, even if it should have. It's the successful version of the Anthony Reyes trade, aided by the fact that the Padres are in severe Payroll Slashing Mode.
Greene, meanwhile, seems like as good a candidate as there is to bounce back after a miserable season. His miserable season wasn't borne of injury problems or age or other things that might recur season after season—it was just miserable, the kind of season that is not caused by a broken hand but is ended by one. I have no analytical heft behind this thought but he seems like the kind of player, as a hacker playing in the wrong ballpark, who might be more prone than the average hitter to completely fall apart over the course of a season and eventually get it back.
And it really was unprecedented; he's never been nearly as bad as he was in 2008. I mean, don't get me wrong, he's had some bad qualities in the past—I can't see his OBP going over .320 without a serious breakout season at this point—but the end result has always been an above-average player. From 2003-2006 his defense, per Ultimate Zone Rating, one of the few PBP defensive stats available that far back, was worth an average of 9 runs per 150 games. Combined with his hitting—according to Baseball Prospectus's PMLVr, which measures the number of runs per game that a player would add to a team compared to a league average player at the position, even at his hackiest he was a little better than the average shortstop—Greene was well above average as a shortstop in 2005 and 2006, and outstanding in 2004 and 2007. It's not often that you acquire a shortstop who was outstanding two seasons ago, did not tear his ACL or get busted for steroids in the meantime, and is now 29 for a relief pitcher who was not in your future plans.
That kind of value distribution, with the genuine potential for high reward and the looming concern of a continued breakdown, is admittedly worrisome on some level, but it's exactly what the Cardinals need at the position. Greene, by sheer virtue of his resume up to this point, seems pretty likely to at least match Cesar Izturis's overall value last year; to not do it would mean he's been the victim of a very rare, very vicious early decline phase or a lingering injury that no one has found. It would require him to bounce back on neither side of the ball. But I'll grant that the Cardinals probably could have found a player more likely to match his borderline-average stylings elsewhere on the market.
What they couldn't have found elsewhere, at least without guaranteeing two years to Edgar Renteria or four to Rafael Furcal, is the chance to add serious value to a team that's still only on the edge of contending. Greene, in a contract year, with a history of success, no longer playing at a historically terrible ballpark for his primary skillset, has the chance to give a team that has not added a lot of upside in the offseason a multi-win boost. He's not just treading water—he's a free shot at a serious positional upgrade. If the Cardinals can do that in the rotation and the bullpen like they've done it here I'll be a lot more optimistic about their chances, but this was an excellent start to their offseason and another bullet point on Mozeliak's budding reputation as a trader.
0 recs |
233 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
a "credible" shortstop
"I wouldn’t have seen it if I hadn’t believed it.’" ~Shannon
by sprfldcard on Dec 5, 2008 12:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Worthy of commercial credit?
He’s doing a lot better than the current economy then….. :-)
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 5, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this trade
really does address a lot of issues.
by DanUpBaby on Dec 5, 2008 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A bag of baseballs
I previously was not high on trading for Khalil Greene but we landed him for a bag of baseballs essentially. How can one be against that? I liked Worrell but, for whatever reason, LaDuncan did not. That means he’s dead to the organization. If the PTBNL is of equal or lesser value than Worrell, then everything is cool. If JMo actually got the Padres to eat $1 mill of his salary, then the only negative of the deal got alot more palatable.
I’m starting to think the Cards should just give Lopez a respectable 2 year contract with an option for the 3rd and be done with the infield.
by jjray on Dec 5, 2008 1:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
hopefully no more than a bag of baseballs
rotoworld sidebar says PTBNL is more highly regarded than worrell
by soccerfreak on Dec 5, 2008 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Any chance the PTBNL list
will be leaked?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Dec 5, 2008 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no the cards are paying the whole salary
by bearcatcardfan on Dec 5, 2008 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then the earlier report from San Diego was wrong
See 3:00 pm CST Thursday update at bottom of page—
http://stlcardinals.scout.com/2/818147.html
Mlb.com also mentioned a report from a SanDiego paper of $1 million going to the Cards but that reference has disappeared from the story so I assume it is erroneous. Here is the original story—
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:RDuO6AQZOJwJ:mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp3Fymd3D2008120326content_id3D370149626vkey3Dhotstove200826fext3D.jsp+khalil+greene+cardinals+%241+million&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
Here is the most recent—
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081203&content_id=3701496&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp
by jjray on Dec 5, 2008 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Adam Kennedy is a more valuable 2B and he’s already paid for 2009.
by astrostl on Dec 5, 2008 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but will he be traded?
is the interesting question
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lopez
Depends which Kennedy and which Lopez show up in 2009. Kennedy’s defensive metrics and average significantly increased in 2008 from 2007. Lopez’s bat went to the moon for the Cards. Kennedy has demanded a trade. JMo has said he will try to accommodate. I assume we will give him up for somebody’s version of Worrell if they eat salary. Even if one looks at Lopez’s full year 2008 numbers (including dismal performance in Washington that got him DFA’ed) he threw up this slash line: .283 .343 .387 730. Kennedy turns 33 in January. That’s the time middle infielders turn into pumpkins. Here is his slash line from 2008: .280 .321 .372 .692 But this is the garbage we got in 2007: .219 .282 .290 .572. I submit it is reasonable to assume that Adam produces something between his 2007 and 2008 numbers … but that’s one huge swath of variance. Kennedy is owed $4 million in 2009. If we could get someone to eat Kennedy’s contract for us and sign Lopez for the same $$$s, I’ll take Lopez. Problem is that Lopez is represented by Boras. We’ll probably have to wait him out.
by jjray on Dec 5, 2008 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it's important to remember
that Kennedy was injured in 2007
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kennedy career offense: .276/.328/.389 (87 OPS+)
Lopez career offense: .262/.330/.395 (89 OPS+)
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pfk_WuYpfdux2FC_hs6ROEQ&gid=0
Kennedy 2008 2B defense (STL): +15.7
Lopez 2008 2B defense (WAS): -3.8
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/batters-and-babip/
Lopez is cited as 2008’s fifth-luckiest hitter.
Kennedy slumped offensively in 2007, had knee surgery, and recovered in 2008.
Lopez has four years on Kennedy, but I still don’t see how the decision is close between the two. My understanding is that Kennedy requested a trade because of the uncertainty of his position, which might be addressed by officially annointing him the everyday starter. If that’s an option I think it’s drastically preferable to a forced trade and multi-year mediocre contract.
by astrostl on Dec 5, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We'll have to agree to disagree
I’ll take Lopez. Kennedy is on his way down. Lopez has a shot at a few more productive season at the plate although agree Kennedy is still the stronger defensively. Kennedy’s knee problem in 2007 did not surface until later in the season. When it got bad, he stopped playing and shut it down for the season. You can write off maybe a month due to the knee. Earlier in the year (2007) he complained about his back … but that does not help your case. A back injury is a recurrent problem that gets worse as the player ages. I rate Kennedy as 50/50 for significant time on the DL this season.
by jjray on Dec 5, 2008 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Attempt
They should denitely attempt to get Kennedy off the books though… just to see if there’s any worth in it? Then sign Lopez… & if they can’t.. better safe than stuck with two overpaid second basemans… or three?
It's not what you do, It's who you do...
by pattimagee on Dec 5, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just say No to FLo
FLopez has an iron skillet for a glove, and his 2-month offensive outbreak was a short-term mirage. Historically, there is little reason to think FLo can continue to get as lucky offensively as he got with the Cardinals. And he will cost us a ton of runs defensively with our “ground ball/pitch to contact” staff. Believe it or not, Kennedy is actually a better bet at 2B that Floppie.
More importantly, there are likely better options than either one.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
by Mr Clean on Dec 5, 2008 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2009 Marcel wOBA projection: Kennedy .295, Lopez .315
2009 CHONE defensive projection: Kennedy +6, Lopez -7
Even if they cost the same, Kennedy projects to be the more valuable player.
They don’t cost the same, though. Kennedy is on the books at a fixed price, and we may take a loss if we do move him. Lopez is represented by Boras and is seeking a multi-year deal, which means we’re taking on risk in addition to money.
.385/.426/.538 in just 169 plate appearances still has to be contrasted with an entire career. I wonder how many people in STL knew his name before the trade…
by astrostl on Dec 5, 2008 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Mercutio weighs in
disclaimer: I’m not a sabermetrics guy; I’m a eyeball guy. And my opinion is… I don’t want either one of them: Kennedy OR Lopez. I’ll stipulate AK’s defensive prowess, I guess, even tho he has rarely made ME go “wow, nice play there, dude.” But the WAY he hits (approach and the plate and fluidity or lack thereof of batting stance) makes me sick. The last player to disturb me that way was (cough) Tino Martinez: Grunt and struggle, trying to push and muscle the ball… often taking a swing that would have made Jack Clark proud, but with a result, if he even made contact, an eight-bounce worm-killer to the second baseman. To my eye, HE was the ‘luckiest’ Cardinal hitter last year. Those tangent off the bat dying quails that the left fielder couldn’t quite get to.
As for Lopez… I was very impressed by a report I read somewhere wherein our eats nails for breakfast backup catcher (who knew Lopez well from their days together in Cincinnati) button-holed Mr Floppy on the day he reported, and basically told him, “don’t screw this up.” And I infer that it was NOT LaRue having any love for FL, or wanting to be a mentor… but it was more like..’don’t bring your laziness and poison to THIS team and clubhouse.’
by the Tewk on Dec 5, 2008 11:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wholeheartedly agree with DanUp
Good deal overall. He’s not an OB hawg by any means, but the man oozes “damage.” He hits for power and he plays a slick SS.
For one year, I don’t see how Mo could’ve done any better than this.
by silent_bob on Dec 5, 2008 1:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
he's projected for about a .170 ISO next year
not too bad I guess
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Amen to that
Khalil’s the SS I wanted us to pick up. I’ll be interested to see if he starts hitting more like he did as a minor-leaguer and in his first season, before his bat got a case of Petco-itis.
Take a little off the swing and hit for the gaps. I think it’ll be a fun season watching him play.
by liam on Dec 5, 2008 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nice to see you man
been a while
Petcoitis, i like it. here’s hoping someone in the STL can help him find a cure
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Dec 6, 2008 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Keep him away from Dr. Paletta.
Baseball Fever.... Catch it!
by skcabrozar on Dec 6, 2008 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Warming up
I’ve warmed up to the deal after reading through the fanpost. I thought at first this was just an improvement in power from what we got at the SS position last year, while taking a hit on defense/speed, but the fact that he was much better on the road, only has one year remaining (not much risk to take) and giving up very little to get him, I’m now in the “I’m happy” group. Looking at the SS market, this really was the best deal available without breaking the bank.
by woodfeld on Dec 5, 2008 1:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Khalil
This is a good move. Jjray is right that we essentially got Khalil Greene for a bag of baseballs. We have our major trade bullets still in reserve and some payroll flexibility to address other needs.
Greene will be a big upgrade because he does have some pop in his bat. I highly doubt we will see 27 homers, but the threat of power will be a big improvement to the lineup. Let’s say he just hits 15 homers, which is about his average output – that is still more than Molina.
Last year, after Molina’s spot in the lineup – there was absolutely no offensive threat at all. Greene will add depth and I think the change of scenery will help his offensive numbers. Plus, I think Pujols can help him find his stroke. What an example Pujols sets for his teammates. Here is a guy who is arguably the best hitter in baseball and he does NOT go up there trying to hit home runs. Pujols is more of a power hitter than Greene will ever be and yet Pujols takes a very disciplined approach to hitting. I think Pujols’ work ethic and good example will be good for Greene, who like Pujols, seems to be a pretty good guy off the field. Plus, Greene won’t have to carry the team. Greene is joining a pretty good lineup.
All in all a good move.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby
by Cardinal Red State on Dec 5, 2008 1:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Reaching?
While I agree that it’s possible Greene will grow under the tutelage of Pujols, I think it’s too much of a reach. At this point, Greene is who he is and we know what we’re going to get – a .240-.250 average, a .300 OBP, 20 or so homeruns (I expect his doubles to drop and the home runs to increase as he leaves Petco) and 30 or so doubles. Anything beyond this is gravy. I also don’t think Greene was carrying the Pads in any way, that throne belongs to Adrian Gonzalez.
by woodfeld on Dec 5, 2008 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My vote is for Peavy carrying the team he put up a ERA of 2.85
What did Gonzales do besides steal a piece of hardware that was rightfully the MANG’s
by bearcatcardfan on Dec 5, 2008 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The offense
I meant the offense, but I would argue that Gonzalez is not too far from Peavy in terms of importance to the Pads.
by woodfeld on Dec 5, 2008 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Curiousity...
…got the best of me and I looked up Gonzalez’s home/away splits versus Peavy’s.
Gonzalez on the road (2008) – .308/.363/.578 with 22 HR and 70 RBI, which equates to 44 HR, 140 RBI over a whole season in NL parks not named Petco.
Peavy on the road (2008) – 5-6, 4.28 ERA, 67 K’s, 1.45 WHIP, 13 HR’s allowed, 75.2 IP
I have to say – one looks like a league MVP candidate and the other looks nothing like it.
by woodfeld on Dec 5, 2008 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Road stats
That is some good info. On another note – when you see stats like that – there is no way the Cardinals should pursue a trade for Peavy – especially if it means giving up Rasmus or Ludwick.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby
by Cardinal Red State on Dec 5, 2008 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Greene
I am not saying the presence of Pujols will turn Greene into something he is not. All I am saying is that Pujols can be a positive influence.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby
by Cardinal Red State on Dec 5, 2008 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
makes me wonder about the religious angle
Still something rather private for most players. I wonder how Khalil’s Bahá’í faith will mesh with the large Christian contingent. (Like many of the veteran Cards, he’s stated faith contributes to his game approach.)
Anyway. Random bit of curiosity. I’m sure it’ll be no issue, given that there’s a big center in the area.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 5, 2008 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Greene's a Baha'i? That's cool.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 6, 2008 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Greene
And yes it probably is an over-reach to describe Greene as “carrying the Pads.” What I meant is that there will probably be less pressure on him in STL than in San Diego.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby
by Cardinal Red State on Dec 5, 2008 1:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Pool of three...
So if the pool of three that the Pads get to choose their PTBNM from are all better propspects than Worrell, and two are pitchers, then my guess is Anderson, Mortensen and Walters. Craig, Boggs, Greene and Salas come to mind as well. I really hope that Mather, Jones, Riefer, Additon and Garcia aren’t on that list. All these guys (plus about 20 more) would qualify as better prospects than Worrell- at least by the Cards valuation.
by BustaCard on Dec 5, 2008 1:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
At what point...
will the next player in the deal be named?
by rivercityredbird on Dec 5, 2008 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not 2 pitchers and 1 hitter either
Just read that it’s a “list of several pitchers”. Hmmm…
by BustaCard on Dec 5, 2008 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The RotoWorld sidebar has me scared about the PTBNL
If it is a top prospect I’m not going to be very happy.
Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"
by thegodfather on Dec 5, 2008 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
weren't Mather and Garcia on the roster?
thus disqualifying them from the list?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Garcia
When I heard it was Garcia, this was one concern. He’s had surgery thus it helps to explain the PTBNL thing … Padres want to wait to at least see Garcia throwing in the mid-2009. Sure hope it is not Garcia that got included in this deal. I think Garcia was sent to AAA before being official shut down.
by jjray on Dec 5, 2008 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good deal
Player acquired is solid defensively: Check
Player acquired has solid power from a typically non-power position: Check
Player is moving from the toughest pitcher’s park in all of baseball: Check
Player acquired is relatively cheap which allows team to address other areas: Check
Team didn’t give up anyone from the 40-man roster: Check
Addressed a gaping hole this offseason without losing Raz/Anderson/Todd etc.: Check
Overall this is a low risk, high reward deal. Well done Moz, I give you a A.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 5, 2008 1:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Im confused
What prevents Anderson/Rasmus/and Jess Todd from being the PTBNL? Im not trying to be a smart aleck I am seriously looking for an explanation of what the rules were for the players that Kevin Towers gets to pick from.
SlamalamaJackADongWick cares very little about your draft pick standing-by gdm426
by FredbirdisaDork on Dec 5, 2008 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I didn't see the new reports
that the PTBNL is a prospect more touted than Worrell before I posted this. That being said, I’m a little scared now. It can’t be Raz, can it? Raz for Khalil Greene, I can’t see Moz being stupid enough to pull that deal. Anderson and Todd are probably greater possibilities now that these new reports are out, and that would make it a less favorable deal to me, but not a complete loss. Originally, I had the idea PTBNL would be more than likely Salas. If Greene can regress to his 2007 numbers I have no problem with giving up Anderson, but I would be reluctantly okay with losing the Destroyer.
Not sure where we could find the stipulations for Towers to choose the PTBNL either.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 5, 2008 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no way Rasmus would be a ptbnl
They wouldn’t be waiting on his health or spring training performance before settling on him, san diego would certainly jump at the chance to aquire him.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
by adiueordie on Dec 5, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not Rasmus...
or any other positiion player according to this…
by BustaCard on Dec 5, 2008 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Relevant part of article is...
“The Padres will select the remaining player from a list of several pitchers agreed upon by the teams Wednesday.” This according to Joe Strauss.
by BustaCard on Dec 5, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
That’s why I said Moz can’t be stupid enough to make that trade. IF for the absurd reason Raz was ever considered in this trade, he would be the centerpiece and a guy like Worrell would’ve been the PTBNL.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 5, 2008 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If it was one of those guys
They wouldn’t be PTBNL, because they aren’t on the DL. Generally they use the PTBNL moniker when they’re moving someone that can’t be traded immediately. This doesn’t mean that it isn’t one of those players, but if I had to guess I’d say it was probably Jaime Garcia, which still doesn’t upset me all that much to be honest.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 5, 2008 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or if they can't decide who they want
IE, Salas and Samuel are both options and they have questions about the preferred player’s health or development or whatever, so they wait until after spring training to make the decision.
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
by SleepyCA on Dec 5, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I personally would like to hang on to Jaime
I like his potential. I would envision maybe Salas being a consideration. He’s got potential closer’s stuff and Hoffman is gone.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 5, 2008 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Keep Garcia
He’s the only left handed starter we have with potential to be a mid-rotation guy.
by jjray on Dec 5, 2008 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't Garcia on the ML disable list
He won’t be pitching in 09 so I doubt the Padres would want to pick up his 2009 $400k salary.
by ubeddie on Dec 5, 2008 7:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, Worrell cried considerably.
Just about ever answer included the “if they had given me more time” or “the Cardinals hate me” spiel… I think the guy did get shafted, but boy, I’m happy he’s gone. Guy came off as a whiny douchebag rather than a professional ballplayer.
As for the Khalil move, love it. Dude, if the guy reverts to near 2007-level, how could anyone NOT like this move? Especially for what we gave up? Even if he’s a total bust, we’re on the hook for one year and we more than likely didn’t give up anyone that will truly come back to bite us… unless Mr. Worrell decides to do another interview. Okay, bite us with their performance rather than verbally.
Miles in '08
by Zoop on Dec 5, 2008 1:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I still think he should make the Ankiel conversion
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
whiny douchebag is right
DM: What do Cardinal fans need to know about you that they probably don’t already know?
MW: It is a ridiculous that an organization won’t give a guy like me a chance. I have absolutely dominated at almost every level and I have been at Triple-A for two years now. I have said all those other things in interviews but now I am just going to go ahead and speak the way I feel. I am tired of serving as a back up; I feel I deserve better than that. I know that I am just as good or better than anyone other reliever in the league. I would just like to get an opportunity somewhere and I really don’t see that with the Cardinals.
Just as good or better than any other reliever? Wow…
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
by adiueordie on Dec 5, 2008 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sayonara
get that db outta here! I’m liking this greene trade even more…
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
in his defense...
he was pretty dominant at AAA and the bull-pen really stunk last year… he might have been as good or better than any other reliever on the Cardinals last year anyway.
by E-Dizzle on Dec 5, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There's almost no way he would have been as good as Springer last year.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 5, 2008 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well really, any of the righties once you consider context.
franklin and izzy wasn’t going anywere.
he and boggs weren’t comparable as they had different roles
parisi was used for hurting starters and as a last resort in the bp
he’s not on the level of perez and motte
the only real gripe he could have is kelvin, and kelvin got his shot (actually a few too many) and is gone, worrell got a shot, put too many guys on base (every time he pitched if I recall correctly) and stayed in the minors.
we may have glut in RHP, but nothing said he couldn’t battle for a spot, but his “interview” (which I don’t really take as griping, but trying to lay his case for being apart of the answer in ’09) sticks out as something no one really wants to deal with.
If I was a vet in the BP and I was reading that, I’d be pissed and wary going forward.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 5, 2008 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
HEY! This is directed at everyone between Zoop's post and mine...
Can we cut out this stuff calling Worrell a whiny douchebag or whatever term people have come up with? The guy wasn’t completely wrong…he’s earned a chance at playing in the major leagues. He’s probably frustrated. It doesn’t excuse popping off at the mouth, but personal attacks and immature name-calling aren’t what we do here.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2008 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
He didn’t get a fair shake here. For whatever reason, the powers that be decided he wasn’t a major league pitcher.
I think he’ll do great in San Diego.
And good job by Dustin Mattison of getting all that on record.
by liam on Dec 5, 2008 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
who said he wasn’t a major league pitcher?
he came up for a few games, relievers do that all of the time.
he put way too many people on base to stay up
we have some great right handed pitchers in the bullpen, and a glut of more to come down the development track.
he’s boxed in and didn’t show enough to be a top of the line consideration, but no one said he wasn’t a ML pitcher.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 5, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
reyes
I appreciate reyes so much right now. class act that guy, through thick and thin
by spencegrif on Dec 5, 2008 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I found it ironic that he was venting because other pitchers in the system were considered better than him but when you read the comments coming from the Padres FO, they’re basically saying that the PTBNL is as good as or better than him.
heh, poor kid can’t get a break in a trade either
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 5, 2008 6:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that Greene will improve greatly from 2008
which is not saying much, but getting out of Petco and playing for a competitive team will help him a lot; I think being on a team as horrible as the Padres didn’t help him much, which means hopefully he’ll be more professional on the Cardinals.
btw, fangraphs has a short article today about the trade. head on over there and read it if you haven’t.
at least they’ve made a slight upgrade over izturis, and I think the bullpen will already be better, so if we add another starter we’ll at least be competitive, and the central probably won’t be quite as tough next season
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 2:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
that is
if they don’t install izzy as the closer again, AAHHH!!!
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
park factors
So I took a few minutes and plugged Khalil’s 2008 season into the 3-year ESPN park factors spreasheet, to determine just how he was affected by Petco last year. Even if you don’t assume he was “unlucky”, he would have been much, much better out of petco; he picks up 3 doubles and over 10 hits, good for .027 points of batting average, but no additional HR, BB’s or 3B’s:
3Y Park Factors . HR H 2B 3B BB STL .816 .995 .918 1.02 0.964 SDP .803 .886 .752 1.02 0.98 Ratio 1.02 1.12 1.22 1.00 0.98
Khalil Greene 2008 . HR H 2B 3B BB HBP SF BA/OBP/SLG (OPS) Real 10 83 15 2 22 5 7 .213/.260/.339 (.599) Adjusted 10.2 93.2 18.3 2 22 5 7 .240/.284/.375 (.659)
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
by SleepyCA on Dec 5, 2008 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
izturis only had an .625 OPS in '08
I think we can expect (at least me anyway) Greene to get around .675 at least.
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
meant .628 for iztoo
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Khalil videos
So usually when the Cardinals get a new player (lohse last year and weaver in 2006) I go to their bio page and watch some of their videos in the little multimedia sidebar. Last night I went to Khalil Greene’s bio page and clicked on some of the videos of him playing defense. To my suprise, the videos labeled “Greene makes a diving stop” or “Greene turns two” were all of the other team. It was the craziest thing, but whenever I would click on what I thought was a video of Greene playing defense was, in fact, Jose Reyes or Ray Durham (pre-brewers). Anybody else notice this?
SlamalamaJackADongWick cares very little about your draft pick standing-by gdm426
by FredbirdisaDork on Dec 5, 2008 2:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
that's kinda funny
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
by adiueordie on Dec 5, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
PTBNL
Could not be Anderson, could it? I mean, I would hate it if we traded Anderson for one year of Greene especially with so many teams in dire need of catching or adequate catching. I hope this is not the case because currently I love this mood but if Anderson is the PTBNL then i am vehemently opposed to it.
by njnick on Dec 5, 2008 2:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I wouldn’t even do 6 years of Anderson for 1 year $6.5M of Khalil straight up after his horrid year last year.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps twenty feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 5, 2008 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
I hope we are just getting worked up because of the unknown but hearing reports about the player being more valuable than Worrell is alarming.
by njnick on Dec 5, 2008 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My hope exactly
We just need to trust Mo until he does something wrong. I’m not counting the Lohse re-signing at this point…
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 5, 2008 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
who could the other two players be that SD wouldn't just immediately grab anderson now?
the three players would have to be of some sort of comparable value, or else there’s no reason to do the PTBNL thing.
I really doubt that it’s Anderson or Rasmus. REALLY doubt it.
Also, the team wouldn’t want to do that to themselves, not knowing whether their most obvious trading chip has been traded or not through this whole offseason.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 5, 2008 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I think people are getting
unnecessarily panicky about this. The team that “owes” a player usually gives the buying team a short list of 3-4 guys they can pick from, and if that’s the case it’s likely all the guys on the list are of comparable value, in this case, probably marginal.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 5, 2008 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there’s been mention it’s two pitchers and a positional player on the list.
i’d hazard to guess they are all in our depth areas (low in the depth chart OF, right handed relief pitcher). none of them would be in the top prospect lists I’d imagine.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 5, 2008 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who's the PTBNL???
Here’s a quote from Towers
Towers said there’s upside with the player to be named later, going as far to say that “the player to be named later would be as good if not better than Worrell.”
The Padres have until April 1 to choose from three players, two pitchers and a position player.
“There’s a couple guys we want to look at in Spring Training,” Towers said, noting that one of the three players could already be frozen on the Cardinals’ 40-man roster.
I’d personally be shocked if it was somebody big given the Padres need for a salary dump. Since he did mention he wanted to see them throw in Spring Training I think that eliminates Garcia since he’s out with TJ.
by birdo rojo on Dec 5, 2008 2:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
ah
I should have read this before I posted below
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Chris Duncan
I think he is the position player—they want to see if he bounces back from the injury. he would be a defensive liability, but offensively, they are a team hurting. The PTBNL umbrella allows them to pick a high upside arm like Salas, Ottavino, Mortensen, or some other guy in case Duncan can’t restore his value.
And no, I’m not throwing him out there because I want to get rid of him, or b/c he’s the common guy thrown into these threads. When I read Towers quotes from the post, my gut said he’s waiting to see if an injury is healed and an upside guy is back on track====C. Duncan.
Also; does anyone else think that if we still had Anthony Reyes, he would have been the other guy? If i remember correctly, he’s a CA native and the S.D. FO really were high on him…just curious.
by timmycardinals on Dec 5, 2008 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't think so
you might be right, but if I had a huge park like PetCo, I wouldn’t want Duncan roaming the OF and he’s definitely not taking 1B away from Gonzalez. Maybe he’s worth the risk for the Padres, but he’ll hurt them more b/c of the size of their OF than he would a team like the Phils, w/ a relatively small OF.
by chuckb on Dec 5, 2008 10:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can't be Duncan...
as pointed-to by a subthread below, the Wikipedia definition of PTBNL indicates that the player must change leagues – so it’d have to be an AL or MiLB player.
That is, if Wikipedia can be trusted (which it often can’t).
Baseball Fever.... Catch it!
by skcabrozar on Dec 6, 2008 1:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Spring Training
Good point birdo rojo. Garcia had surgery in August but I can’t believe he would be throwing from the mound in ST.
by jjray on Dec 5, 2008 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Key phrase
“Would be as good if not better than Worrell”. That hardly sounds like an Anderson or Garcia to me. More like a Salas-type.
by mikedallas45 on Dec 5, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i completely agree
no way they are looking at garcia in april
its gotta be between salas, reifer, and other like that
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 5, 2008 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would bet the list looks something like...
Mortensen, Parisi, Walters, Salas, Scherer. I hope it is not anyone better than these guys.
by BustaCard on Dec 5, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'd rather riefer be on there
than mortenson…i saw him pitch twice in memphis this year, and i think he can be a mid rotation starter for us in 2010
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 5, 2008 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Towers
Remember that Towers is trying to spin this trade as positively as possible. “As good if not better” than a marginal prospect is fairly vague. Besides, when the player is named in March or April, no one is going to remember what Towers said today anywhay.
Mike
by juggler on Dec 5, 2008 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a very good point
Just imagine if we were on the other side of this trade.
“Mo just traded a shortstop that hit 27HRs 2 years ago for some reliever that has been stuck at AAA for over 2 years!!!!”
We’d be freaking out and we’d hear nothing but tremendous accolades on who this PTBNL is. I’m guessing he’s being very generous in his qualification that it could be someone as good as Worrell.
by birdo rojo on Dec 5, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
considering he got someone who is considered ML ready, the other player would be most likely in our area of glut – of, rhp relief and towers would be referencing the other player’s upside rather than showing thus far.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 5, 2008 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it does eliminate
Garcia. Not sure why they’d want Garcia right now anyway. We’re talking about major arm surgery here. They would want to see him pitch AFTER the surgery before trading for him.
by chuckb on Dec 5, 2008 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
can anyone explain
exactly what ‘player to be named later’ constitutes?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 2:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_to_be_named_later
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
by SleepyCA on Dec 5, 2008 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
best analysis of what to expect from Greene
that i have seen so far
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
by erik on Dec 5, 2008 3:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Since when is WPA/LI park adjusted???
by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure the whole section about that stat
is wrong.
by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2008 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i was looking more at the
park neutral stuff than WPA/LI
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
by erik on Dec 5, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The park-nuetral stuff was good.
BR usually has good park factors, IIRC. Petco’s such an extreme environment.
by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2008 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the bit about B-R's PI tool is a bit off, too
That tool adjusts for run environment, as well as park effects. IE it’s what Greene would have done in an average park in a historically average year, one in which all teams average 715 runs, rather than what they averaged in 2008, which was much higher.
Hence the ~30 point OPS difference between his park effect calculations and mine above. Another factor is that ESPN’s park effect calculations are (shockingly) much better than B-R’s, because they include the effect on each type of hit rather than just overall run scoring ratios.
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
by SleepyCA on Dec 5, 2008 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I wonder if anyone is thinking that Greene's defense
allows them to get away with Lopez at 2nd, or if the free $1m via Greene/San Diego allows them to eat $1m of Kennedy.
by sdrone on Dec 5, 2008 3:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think Lopez would be a good guy to have off the bench
but I don’t really want him starting at 2B. problem is, he’s too expensive for a bench guy
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
apparently we are not getting a free 1 million for SD
i say we leave kennedy alone and go after a starter
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 5, 2008 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
third
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here, here
I concur. I can live with AK/KG combo. Keep Grit as the backup. Just don’t add BRyan as the “fourth.”
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:
by gocards62 on Dec 5, 2008 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this as well
AK, KG, Grit, and Freese for 2009!
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 5, 2008 5:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
With anywhere from 10 - 15 million left in the bag
I think we are looking at Kennedy at Second. Like Greene, he’s in a contract year at a MI position that typically does not see a lot of depth out there. If AK can perform at or above career average levels, I see him being able to sign a starting gig somewhere and our MI tandem would be okay. Kennedy’s value is too low to send him out now I think, and it allows Miles and/or Ryan to come in as utility and take over at 2B should he stumble out of the gates.
The remaining money will be spent on pitching, IMO and that will obviously be determined by Paletta/Carpenter since we can’t seem to persuade them to travel back in time and give 60-75% of it to B. Looper on a one-year deal and sign another bullpen arm.
by timmycardinals on Dec 5, 2008 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nix Freese -- I think Barden is a lot more flexible than Freese.
and I want to see him at 2b and SS.
I don’t know why Barden gets such short shrift as an option.
by tom s. on Dec 5, 2008 10:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Freese is probably worth a lot more than barden
just on his hitting alone… it’s not like freese is a big defensive liability (and don’t put it past Tony to play Freese wherever he feels like)
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 6, 2008 3:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i don't know Dan, i just don't have a good feeling about Green
something in my gut just won’t let me be optimistic about him. i can’t put my finger on it, but something about this whole thing just doesn’t feel right. i hope i’m wrong.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Dec 5, 2008 3:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It's a tape worm because you have a
genetic inability to feel pain.
by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Damnit
the World Record is over 60 feet.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe you don't like the name Khalil?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it gas?
Are you gassy? It’s gas, isn’t it?
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Dec 5, 2008 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
damn you nachos bellgrande!
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Dec 6, 2008 12:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Trent Green?
Yeah, he’s washed up. Bad move for St. Louis.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i thought it was a fine pick up.
for a back up QB.
by Evilfrog on Dec 5, 2008 7:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does Trent play 2B?
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
by effin fisk on Dec 5, 2008 10:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who doesn't?
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Dec 5, 2008 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's because he's on the far side of the Uncanny Valley
It’s a common genetically predisposed human response to the Khalilbot.
It’s all been documented by the good folks in San Diego. You’ll get used to it.
Plus I hear he’s a great clubhouse guy…just sits quietly in the corner humming away while calculating the Nth digit of Pi.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
by Mr Clean on Dec 5, 2008 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's hard to be a good offensive player
with an OB% almost almost 10% below the league average, like Greene has for his career. Yes, he hits more homers than an average shortstop, but those extra 10 dingers come with a whole lot of outs attached.
In the following table, I’ll rank shortstops by VORP, a Baseball Prospectus stat giving how many runs better a player was with the bat compared to a replacement level player at that position. In the table, I list the 2008 VORP for all NL SS who had at least 300 PA, and I’ll include all four of Greene’s seasons as a player. Note, VORP is park adjusted.
Ramirez 79.4
Reyes 62.6
Rollins 44.4
Drew 42.8
Hardy 40.4
Guzman 34.1
Theriot 27.9
Escobar 24.9
Greene 2007, 23
Tejada 19.4
Greene 2005, 15.5
Greene 2006, 14.2
Tulowitzki 8.1
Wilson 2.7
Izturis 2.6
Keppinger 1.5
Green 2008, -7.1
Vizquel -12.4
As you can see, his best season was good for 8th place on the list, which is OK, but just average in 16-team league. It wasn’t a bad trade, but he’s a risky player whose upside with the bat is probably “average.” Greene mainly looks good because Izturis—the last shortstop who Mo got us—was so very bad.
by tarakas on Dec 5, 2008 3:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
so what you are saying
is that in the major’s hardest park to hit in, greene averaged about 10th…i’d say that is worth 6.5 million, mark worrell, and a PTBNL
also, this is only offense, taking defense into account would probably move him up in value over some of these guys(drew? hardy?)…not looking at any numbers, so i could be wrong there
and i still contend that, for what we were paying him, izturis was not that bad
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 5, 2008 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The VORP numbers are park adjusted
So Petco isn’t hurting his numbers here.
Including his defense would probably help him. My point was some people were speaking highly of his offense. And his offensive upside is OK, but not particularly good.
by tarakas on Dec 5, 2008 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
his 2007 season was particularly good
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 6, 2008 3:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't do the work now,
because I’m not at my own computer, but doesn’t this list underrate Greene, to a degree, by only using the National League? The Cardinals had a wider pool of shortstops than just their own league to consider, and as I recall the AL has had some pretty weak shortstop pools of late.
It also underrates him in terms of his per-game abilities because he played 120-ish games in 2005 and 2006. Certainly durability has to be taken into account, but it’s important to note that his VORP would be over 20—ie, he’d be an average hitter for the position—in both years had he played a fuller season. (And yeah, defense is also important, etc.)
by DanUpBaby on Dec 5, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here are rate stats
I didn’t have time at work to pull in a rate stat or both leagues. Now I do.
We can use PLMvr— how many runs per game he produces over a replacement shortstop, or his VORP rate per game.
Below are his PLMVr rates and ranking among MLB SS with 300 or more PA
Year PLMVr Rank in MLB SS
2005 . 009 14th
2006 .002 18th
2007 .020 18th
2008 -.917 31st
Now VORP rate:
Year VORPr Rank in MLB SS
2005 .009 14th
2006 .133 18th
2007 .150 18th
2008 -.071 31st
He still comes out as pretty average in both of these, with the exception of last year.
As far as defense goes—sources disagree on his defensive value. From 2005-2007, Baseball Prospectus has him as a below average defender—a total of 12 runs worse.
I don’t dislike the trade. I mainly posted this because some people seemed to be looking at the 27 homers and saying he was a good hitter. He’s OK, but not particularly good. The 27 HR came with a sub-300 OBP, and that hurts.
by tarakas on Dec 6, 2008 12:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it's rare for a shortstop to hit for power like that though
if he does 20+ HR and plays decent defense, even a low OBP can be covercome
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 6, 2008 3:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
*overcome
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 6, 2008 3:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if he's average at the plate
and average-ish in the field, that makes him a league-average SS worth $9 – 10 M per season. Not bad for $6.5.
by chuckb on Dec 5, 2008 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
by effin fisk on Dec 5, 2008 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
$6.5 M plus 2 Prospects
What is the value of the Prospects in $$$ terms?
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 5, 2008 6:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
we don't yet know who they are
well…we know who 1 is. Until we know who the other is, or even the list of who they might be, it’s difficult to say.
by chuckb on Dec 5, 2008 10:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A good business move? Yes.
But will Greene be popular in St. Louis? I’m not sure.
Greene seems (to me) to be the type of guy that might fill in as a classic fallboy, a la Juan Encarnacion. He strikes out a ton, has low OBP and will only be with us for 1 year. Hopefully he’ll provide enough pop to help us overlook some shortcomings, but if too many of his dingers come with the bases empty, or line up with his 08 numbers instead of his 07 numbers, it could spell trouble for a fanbase that’s more impressed with consistency than streaky power.
At the end of the day, popularity doesn’t win games, of course. But the Kennedy move was hailed by many at the time as being a good value move, yet today 2B is still seen as a hole.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
by effin fisk on Dec 5, 2008 4:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That's a good point...
Most St. Louis fans seem to care only about batting average and how much a guy strikeouts, something that Greene will not fare well in.
Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro
by DiscoJer on Dec 5, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kennedy is a hard example to swallow considering the fact that he ended up injured in ’07, and ironically, though not in the way most people would consider, Kennedy earned his money last year – just on the wrong side of the ball.
I have read in the past that Greene’s bat has been a focus of a lot of tinkering, not just by him. So not even looking at the Petco part of the solution just a new place of work could really help him short and long term.
And if he’s putting up numbers closer to ‘07 than ’08 and he’s getting hell from the fan base, then the base needs to reconsider what they find important. because good baseball isn’t it.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 5, 2008 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
it was a good value move
he was just horrible on the first year of the deal, and first impressions are hard to break.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 5, 2008 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As far as popularity with the fan base goes...
I think a good BA/RISP would really win over the crowd. However, his career #‘s are .263, .305, .209, .284, and .145, ’04-’08, respectively. Kind of back and forth, so it’s hard to say.
by blitzkrieger83 on Dec 5, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just the thought of it...
Strictly a pipe dream, but just maybe…
Pujols, Glaus, Ludwick, Ankiel, Mather, Rasmus AND Greene all hitting 25+ homeruns? I’m not one to put much emphasis on homers (more of an BA-type), but that’d be quite an accomplishment.
by blitzkrieger83 on Dec 5, 2008 4:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
lol, weve become the Cubs of a couple years ago ;-)
waiting on injured pitchers and relying on the HR
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Dec 5, 2008 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that would be insane
considering there’s 4 outfielders on that list
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I realized that
The assumption was that all would get sufficient amount of PA
by blitzkrieger83 on Dec 5, 2008 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I figured
it would still be pretty difficult though, unless Schumaker is dealt
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and Duncan doesn't play
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
surely one of them
could play 2B? If we do without a second baseman and just let Pujols cover the entire right side does Albert get to bat twice?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Dec 5, 2008 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
mark me down
Mather if he’s on the team will be the surprise of the year.
He’s underrated and better than a 4th OF, he may not surprise like Luddy did to most, but my gut says he’s going to put up a damn solid year.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 5, 2008 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
with DanUp…
this was a really good move by mo; his best yet. what makes it even better is that there seems to be a rush on shortstops lately. renteria and visquel are off the market and I think wilson was traded as well.
check out my blog: Redbird Ramblings
Mo, please go get Nick Punto!
waiting for the 2009 season to begin and colby rasmus to patrol centerfield!
by cards4life on Dec 5, 2008 4:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It's not his best yet
It’s certainly not as good as the Lohse signing last spring. That makes it, at best, #2.
by chuckb on Dec 5, 2008 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rolen for Glaus
worked out pretty well too
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 5, 2008 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Edmonds too
When Freese makes you do a double take on the "automatic"ness of Wallace, that’s pretty damn impressive.
Mo has had some damn good nonsignings (that we know of) as well.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 5, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that one's better as well
Mo has acquitted himself quite nicely in the 13 months or so he’s been on the job and this move is a solid move, at best. It’s not a great move.
by chuckb on Dec 5, 2008 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Part of the move is up in the air when it comes to who else signs for what. (What does Iz sign for? Will it be one year? Furcal? etc)
But could you consider it a great move if he does rebound and look like a +3, +4 WAR player?
Yes, an if I’ll contend. Still, that’s a steal.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 5, 2008 6:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if he's +4
maybe so. But I don’t really see that. That would make him a $20 M SS — just less than Jimmy Rollins was last year. Greene simply doesn’t have the on-base skills to get to +4, IMO.
by chuckb on Dec 5, 2008 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
chuck, ( I keep wanting to type hc, heh)
maybe so?
maybe I’m not coming across correctly.
excluding the variables which are how much Iz and Furcal is going to sign for and the other player involved. So just from a salary point of view.
I’m trying to gauge where your point would be on it being a great move, mostly because I’m curious. For me it’s 3 WAR, there I’ll be quite content. By going over what fangraphs did in evaluating it (they say he’ll be 2 or a touch better) and adding in an uptick in defense and offense I don’t think it’s out of expectation of being 3 WAR.
I don’t believe in a miracle walking, but I do think there could be a chance that his contact rate gets better in the Lou.
Either way it doesn’t matter, just wondering where the datapoint was where you’d say it’s a steal
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 6, 2008 1:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
who already snagged up Vizquel?
and why the hell would someone already have him locked up? I hate to think any team think he will me a key player for them
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Dec 5, 2008 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think he's assuming vizquel will retire.
by Phizzle on Dec 6, 2008 12:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that makes sense
more sense than my reply.
Geez, I got so worked up over the thought of someone actually going in early on Vizquel that I forgot how to type (and I have even been trying to use the preview button more)
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Dec 6, 2008 10:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Very good, but not the best...
I’d order them this way:
Lohse signing (4.5 million for a solid starter=damn fine move)
Rolen for Glaus (essentially a sideways move at the time but an upgrade now)
Edmonds for Freese (Freese is a legitimate prospect and Edmonds only has a few more years of even respectable baseball and blocked several guys)
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2008 10:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Please let the list be Chris Duncan
and Skip Schumaker. Please let it be, GOBs!
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2008 4:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
that would be awesome
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
although the list only has one hitter on it
so it would be or
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
whoops...
Didn’t mean to only post a subject above…
But did anyone else find his comments about the Cardinals’ organization very disconcerting?
I mean, I guess it was nothing that I already didn’t know… but still, to hear a player say things like that about not being given a chance despite outdoing the other guys around him, and to be the victim of poor communication (not telling the pitcher what else he has to do to be granted a chance in the majors), looks terrible on the organization. Some of his statements were very similar to A-Rey’s once he had been traded.
by AndyB83 on Dec 5, 2008 5:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
really?
Worrell did better than Boggs; Reyes; Parisi, Motte and Perez? Does anyone honestly think he would have done a better job in the Majors than McCellan, Springer or even non-closing Franklin? The only person on the Majors that i think he should have been promoted over would have been Jimenez. Who was given his last look before being exposed(and taken) in the rule 5.
A-Rey started more than any other pitcher between 2006-2007. I wouldn’t say he didn’t get a chance. I would say that Duncan couldn’t adjust to him and he couldn’t adjust to Duncan. But not that he wasn’t given a chance. I hope he has a long and succesfull career.
by Evilfrog on Dec 5, 2008 8:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want to say Worrell got screwed or anything
but he did do better than Parisi, right? While Worrell struggled, it was basically in just 2 2/3 of those 5 2/3 innings pitched. Parisi was bombed in far, far more outings. Was it possible to look worse than Parisi did last season?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Dec 5, 2008 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you have to really be splitting hairs
to say Worrell did better than anyone. Even in the outings he didn’t get hammered he still gave up a lot of base runners – at least 2 per IP in every single outing. At least Parisi had a few good outings before he started to suck and he did end up having surgery.
I am glad to see him go, I don’t think he has a prayer of being a decent MLB pitcher. Of course, PETCO may help him stay around for a while.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Dec 5, 2008 10:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
how weird would it be
if the player to be named later is David Freese?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 5:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I just saw that they put up some news about Carp's nerve test at Goold's blog
It’s healing, he’s going to start throwing in January, and if he stays on schedule he should be ready for Spring Training.
Also, everyone gets a flying pony.
by BTown Birds fan on Dec 5, 2008 5:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I hope my pony has hypercolor skin
So its hair changed color when I tell it how much I love it every night.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
by effin fisk on Dec 5, 2008 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was at least trying to be realistic
Everyone knows that is the absolute rarest kind of flying pony.
by BTown Birds fan on Dec 5, 2008 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that is illegal in Illinois.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Dec 5, 2008 6:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You always want a unicorn.
What is it with robots and unicorns?
by cardsgirl95 on Dec 5, 2008 6:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
here you go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5im0Ssyyus
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
by erik on Dec 5, 2008 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ask and ye shall
receive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5im0Ssyyus
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
by erik on Dec 5, 2008 7:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i got your unicorn
and she’s glorious,,,,
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Dec 6, 2008 12:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I see a little something
under there that indicates this unicorn is male.
by spants on Dec 6, 2008 2:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
heh
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 6, 2008 3:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or is that Clarence?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 6, 2008 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he has your unicorn!
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 6, 2008 3:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I remember my first hyper color shirt
I brought it back from a trip in FL and no one has seen them in MO yet. I was cool that day.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 5, 2008 6:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But were you
this cool?
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Dec 5, 2008 6:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's old school
This is how you measure being cool by today’s standards.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 5, 2008 6:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no school like the old school
I subscribed to Nintendo Power. Never had that haircut, though
Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net
by erik on Dec 5, 2008 7:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that Zack Morris?
circa Miss Bliss?
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 5, 2008 6:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ahhh Duck Tales
It shaped my life in so many ways. I wanted to be a Banker when I grew up because of the inflationary policies that I learned on Duck Tales.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 5, 2008 6:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
as i have said all along
they need to get someone else as insurance and since we are goign retro we can no longer refer to guys off the heap as Duncans fixes yet now..the Garbage pail kids…oh yah
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Dec 5, 2008 6:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
can my pony have a horn
then I’d have a unisus, or maybe a pegacorn
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 6:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mark's been talking to Dr. Paletta
and his shoulder looks sound. He’ll begin a throwing program soon and they expect him to be ready for Opening Day.
Oh wait, which oft-injured starter are we having smoke blown up our asses for this time?
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2008 9:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ya the right move would be
to go get a non garbage pail starter in case..have waino one..fill in 2 loshe 3 welly 4 not sure 5
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Dec 5, 2008 10:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just heard on PTI
that Greg Maddux will announce his retirement on Monday. I’m now on the hunt for an article…
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 5, 2008 6:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That was quick
Found it on ESPN.com
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 5, 2008 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Greene
If he is as half as good as the last ss we traded for from the Padres he will be good, I have always liked him as a player, go greene.
by tbentley on Dec 5, 2008 8:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
KG still strikes me as another Dumpster Dive. For each successful foray - Welly . .
. . the team plucks two Matt Clements and Delino Deshields; however, Greene does figure to strengthen the COIL (coming-off injyury/surgery-list) of AP, Carp, Ank, and Lil Dunc. In short you must surrender something of value to receive value in return. You need not surrender much to receive a self-inflicted wound player with a Mendoza-line stats
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Dec 5, 2008 8:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
was DeShields worse than I remember?
maybe so, but if you go back and look a his offensive stats , we would be salivating over having that kind of production in the leadoff/2B spots. Of course I remember his defense being iffy at times, but I didn’t remember it being 19 errors at second base bad.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Dec 5, 2008 9:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
DeShields?
I’d say he was a pretty decent hitter. His OPS+ were 110 and 111. He missed a lot of time in his last season, but when he played he posted a .371 OBP. Only 3 guys on the 08 Cards had better OBP than that, and Glaus and Ludwick weren’t THAT much better than that.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2008 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
mea culpa - though DD fits - try Jr. Spivey for poster child for Dumpster Diving . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Dec 5, 2008 10:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+100,000
Spivey was the very definition of a dumpster dive. He was a position player version of Mark “The Bird” Fidrych…one good year right out of the gate and then falling off the face of the earth.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 6, 2008 1:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Perfect move at SS for the Cards. Vizquel, Furcal, and Renteria
are all at least five years from their prime. KG had a down season, but most players will. I don’t see a bad trend with the guy, and the Cards are pretty failsafe on this deal since the team can dump the guy if need be or sign him back up if he works out.
Another Padres trade that works out for the Cards.
by Big Head on Dec 5, 2008 8:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
what about Cabrera?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 6, 2008 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good Move
But we still need a closer more than a shortstop
"Wherever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai
by brik on Dec 5, 2008 8:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
especially now
that we have a shortstop ;)
god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs
by SleepyCA on Dec 5, 2008 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't be glib
we don’t know if Tony plans on Khalil playing SS or not. Nothing can be assumed.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2008 9:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
mother of ass i hadn't thought of that
for all we know Tony will start him in right all season just because he almost hit 30HR’s a couple seasons ago. crap, i can just see it now,,,,
"well, he hit what? 27 HR’s two seasons ago in my favorite park, PetCo. And, and that’s a pitcher’s park. Yes sir, he’s wayyy toooooo good of a hitter to play the infield. we need a guy with his power in the OF. i’m just glad MO finally listened to me & got me,errrr, Albert the protection he deserves. although i have no idea why all of you want me to play him at short. he’s got OF power! he belongs in right!
Aaron! put on your cup! your my SS baby!
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Dec 6, 2008 12:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One interesting thing here is that Greene sure doesn't project as a leadoff hitter.
So, we must do one of the following:
a) go and get a 2b who fits a leadoff profile
b) start Rasmus/Schumaker/Barton in the outfield.
Certainly, b) doesn’t look too hard. It only comes into play if Duncan or Mather have a monster ST, neither Ludwick or Ankiel get traded, and Rasmus fails to impress sufficiently to start out of ST. If we stand pat at 2b and we start 3 power hitting OF, we’re left with Miles or Kennedy or Ryan leading off.
by tom s. on Dec 5, 2008 10:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Rotoworld quotes Atlanta Journal-Constitution writer as saying
that Ludwick is still available for Kelly Johnson if they want to do the trade. Being new here, I haven’t seen previous posts about this possibility, so I’ll just wade in…Ludwick’s year looks like fluke. Meanwhile, Johnson is younger, a lefty, and can occasionally steal a base. My only questions are, what are his defensive numbers, and how can Ludwick not be a free agent for the first time until he’s 33?
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 5, 2008 11:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
1) he's a -1 defender, though I was reasonably impressed w. his defense.
2) little bits of him keep going pop.
Younger is good. Lefty . . . have you seen our outfield? Lefties are the last thing we need, honestly. Steal a base – meh, okay. The stunning things about Johnson are that he’s got a lifetime OPS of .800 and he’s 26. He’s a minus defender to balance that out.
Johnson was good for 7 runs over Kennedy this year. Ludwick was good for 51 runs total. On first glance, it doesn’t look like a good trade. You can’t project that disparity between Johnson and Kennedy for next year — Kennedy is not a career +16 defender. So, lets say Johnson is worth 16 or 18 runs over kennedy.
Ludwick was good for 51 runs total. I don’t know how you say Ludwick is a fluke — just not enough years w/o injury to say. Let’s say he regresses to 35 runs total — still respectable. That would put him just before vlad guerrero this year. Then, the question is, is Mather going to give us at least 19 runs next year (I say mather b/c he’s our nearest RH equivalent to Ludwick and we couldn’t play another leftie in the field if we sell Ludwick). Is Mather going to be as good as Nelson Cruz? Maybe. Then, you have to ask about the performance of Johnson over the remainder of his club-controlled period. Both he and ludwick have the same time of ML service. So, on balance, it’s probably a roughly even trade, if you buy into my guesswork projections. I didn’t guess about Johnson’s production, but I will say he’s been pretty consistent over 2 seasons.
If you believe Ludwick will have three more 1.000 OPS seasons, it’s not a good deal. If you think he’s going to hit 15 homers and then his arm will fall off at the shoulder in August, then it is. He’s such an unknown that it’s hard to say. I guess the other question is whether you think that a new atmosphere will help either player — will Oquendo’s tutelage help Johnson’s fielding?
by tom s. on Dec 6, 2008 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ludwick was not a fluke
The one thing about Ludwick which is very real is his power.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 6, 2008 1:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
he laces the ball with authoriteh!
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 6, 2008 3:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get the one year wonder stuff either
If people insist on using that kind of phrase , please let them use “1 and 3/4 year wonder” instead, because he was pretty damn impressive in 2007.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Dec 6, 2008 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not totally opposed to that trade
but I don’t think that was a fluke you saw…
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 6, 2008 3:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ludwick for Johnson
would be a complete steal for Atlanta and would be one hell of a dumb move for us. Sorry but Ludwick is worth more than Kelly freaking Johnson. How are we going to feel when Ludwick hits 40 HRs for Atlanta while Kelly Johnson battles for playing time with Miles or Kennedy?? DUMB, DUMB idea for a trade.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 6, 2008 4:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How about something more even like
Mather & Boggs with maybe a AA prospect throw in for Johnson. That I could live with. But Ludwick for Johnson straight up is not a fair trade in my opinion. Atlanta would have to throw in something else to even it up. A piece for the bullpen maybe?
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 6, 2008 4:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Now a Ludwick for Johnson trade would fly I guess
If Mo was to sign a HR/RBI guy (Dunn?) to protect Albert I guess. But if I were Mo I would try to find another scenero in getting Johnson that doesn’t involve Ludwick. I would even trade Ankiel over Luddy. I think Ludwick is going to have some great seasons ahead of him in the next 2-3 years and it would be a mistake to just toss him off as a fluke.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 6, 2008 4:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Adam Dunn?
The three true outcomes guy? He at one point in 2008 had more walks than singles. I’d love to see him here…
There are folks here that will tell you he’s fat and lazy and not a worthy ball player. I think of all the big sluggers out there he’ll go for the smallest contract, he’s the youngest, but probably not the best sort of protection behind anyone. Three true outcomes players are my favorite. Let’s get the pitching equivalent too. I want me some Scott Kazmir…..his 2008 was kind of like that.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Dec 6, 2008 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's just not very good at defense
so I think he should become a DH somewhere
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 6, 2008 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
Related FanPosts on Viva El Birdos
Related FanShots on Viva El Birdos
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
