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Cards Closing in on Khalil Greene? (Updated: Yes, and they got him.)

Tiny by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Comment 841 comments

[Update - azruavatar - 6:47am]

Khalil Greene Acquired.

[/end update]

 

http://blogs.nypost.com/sports/st/archives/2008/12/khalil_greene_o.html

 

After the Looper fiasco, I was looking forward to Rafael Furcal at short. Not sure what I think about this yet...

Maybe we buy low on him and get a solid defender with decent pop and a cool name for pennies on the dollar? I'd be pretty happy with that. I'm definitely glad it's not 2/$18 mil for Edgar Renteria. The optimist in me says that a vacation from Petco would do KG right, but I haven't seen/am too busy right now to look for his home/road splits. Depending on what it cost, I think this could be good news.

So who plays second now? A bat presumably, but which one? There's not a lot out there on the market. Maybe Mo trades for Uggla? Maybe the Ludwick-Kelly Johnson fantasy? I'm definitely at a loss for 2B.

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I would rather have Felipe Lopez

He is set to make $6.5M this year. We shouldn’t pay over $3M for his services. He was actually worse last year than Cesar Izturis. A classic buy low by Mo, but I hope that we are paying low.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 4, 2008 12:08 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He (Greene) was comically bad last year...

but it was a fluky year for him, at least offensively. In every offensive category, his numbers were the lowest he has ever posted, including his rookie season. He’s not (that) old—29—so I think it’s a safe bet to assume those numbers will go up, particularly in a non-Petco stadium. Also, it’s $6.5 mil next year, but only for one year.

"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."

by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Dec 4, 2008 12:31 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I meant to say "not" including his rookie season

"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."

by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Dec 4, 2008 12:32 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

greene

He might have been worse than Izturis at the plate last year but over the course of his career Greene has been the better hitter. Greene is also an above average defender. Lopez is an awful defender who is looking for a multi year deal. Greene may cost us 6.5 million this year as a low risk stop gap at short for 1 season. If Greene doesn’t bounce back then he is gone. If you sign Lopez to 2-3 years at 4+ million per than it is by far a riskier move. This is a smart move- fill a hole on the team and remain competitive without losing payroll flexibility this year or in the future.

by block writer on Dec 4, 2008 12:54 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think that it is likely that he will have a big year

He definitely had a fluky year last year, his OPS was about 150 points below his average from before 08. He also will be moving away from Petco which will certainly help his stat. When you include the fact that he would also be hitting in a lineup filled with guys who get on base like the Cards, he should certianly have a very good year.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 4, 2008 1:00 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well

maybe Mo can extend him mid-season if things look good. Still better than Flopez.

by spants on Dec 4, 2008 1:28 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Greene is a great low risk / high reward guy

I know he was awful last year, but before then Petco was masking much of his hitting ability. He could be a minor star.

Khalilbot

by JI on Dec 4, 2008 1:53 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

plus

it’s a contract year. i think i can be mildly optimistic without being completely foolish. His ops in his worst year ever was like 3 pts less than izturus and he’s a plus defender, so worst case the cards have something like izturus. Likely case, he improves on that ops and there’s a marginal SS improvement over last year, even if it’s not 2007 vintage Greene.

by spencegrif on Dec 4, 2008 10:05 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's a good point

contract years always bring out the best in players.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 4, 2008 1:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not always

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 4, 2008 5:02 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lopez’s career AVG/OBP/SLG is .262/.330/.395 (89 OPS+).

The new predicted batting average on balls hit into play method at http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/batters-and-babip/ cites Lopez as one of the luckiest hitters of 2008.

http://jinaz-reds.blogspot.com/2008/10/preliminary-2008-total-value-estimates.html marks him as a -3.8 fielder at 2B for 2008 as a National (chose WAS because he had three times as many innings there), and 2B is a less defensively demanding position than SS.

I would be personally disappointed if Lopez even displaced Kennedy – especially if it’s 2+ years.

by astrostl on Dec 5, 2008 12:26 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They mentioned...

2 relief pitching prospects. Hopefully neither of those are named Perez or Motte. I think if either one of those are involved, the Padres will have to eat some salary and makes the move to not offer arbitration to Springer a HUGE mistake.

by Jumsy on Dec 4, 2008 12:11 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It better be Worrell

That guy deserves his shot and the Cardinals seem hellbent on not giving it to him.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 4, 2008 12:13 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd be fine with Worrell going in this deal.

I wasn’t overly impressed with him the first go ’round.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 4, 2008 1:01 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well he is one of our better hitting

pitchers

Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:

by gocards62 on Dec 4, 2008 12:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know what you've seen.....

Out of him to make you think he’d be anything better than the last arm in the bullpen, but I don’t agree. A funky delivery in and of itself isn’t enough to succeed at this level.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Dec 4, 2008 9:37 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dude ... it's not the arm,

it’s the 519 career OPS+ that has us all bedazzled!

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 4, 2008 9:53 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Per erik
The numbers present a very strong case for Worrell, look no further than his MLE-57.7 innings, K/9 10.77, BB/9 4.68, .233 batting average against, 3.19 FIP. If that doesn’t do it for you, 25.6% of the batters he faced went down swinging, the third highest rate in the PCL for relievers, behind only Jason Motte and Jason Bulger. I mean, with those kinds of results, one would think we’d be talking about him in the same breath as Motte and Perez.

But, since you don’t like player who aren’t at the MLB level, you wouldn’t know this.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 4, 2008 10:30 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't like players not at the MLB level?

Won’t argue with you if you are going to exaggerate and make stuff up.

I’m not the only one that hasn’t been impressed by Worrell, AAA numbers or not. The list of players of that put up good numbers in the minors only to do NOTHING at the MLB numbers isn’t a short one.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Dec 4, 2008 11:06 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That 2 week audition

sure was disastrous for him at the MLB level.

And you won’t argue it because it is true. You’ve spoke ill of every prospect we’ve had over the last year UNTIL they show up at the MLB level and do exactly what people expected them to do. Then you’re a convert.

When over a period of time you prove this characterization wrong, I’ll believe you.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 4, 2008 11:35 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry about that....

Worrell and Samuel would be a nice haul for the Pads, and we can certainly spare some righty relievers.

by mateodh on Dec 4, 2008 12:19 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd bet money...

That Perdomo is in the deal. Makes sense as to why he was left of the 40 man. Maybe Mo has had this in the works for a couple weeks.

by RayMonD! on Dec 4, 2008 12:44 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, if the report is true that it's 2 "prospects"

then it won’t be Thompson. Plus, we may need him to fill out the rotation next year………….

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 4, 2008 1:03 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes, yes we do.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 4, 2008 2:04 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Man, he could do anything

What is Greene going to do? He could be really awesome or really bad.

The Bad, Ugly, Awful

1) Greene was an abomination last year offensively. Worse than Izturis.
2) Greene costs $6.5 million and prospects.

The Rays of Hope

1) Greene has a career road OPS of .802. That’s a high number for a SS.
2) Greene was steady as hell from 2004-2007, when he posted a .727-.795 OPS every year.
3) Greene’s defensive reputation is good, though his 2008 stats put him closer to average. His +/- seems to drop every year, unfortunately. His RZR is middle-of-the-pack consistently.

Which Greene will we see? That’s the question.

by mojowo11 on Dec 4, 2008 1:02 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

as long as he hits better than Izturis

and he keeps up the good defense, I kinda like this move (well, only if we pick up a good starter)

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 4, 2008 1:16 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

although

I’ll make up my mind when I hear which pitchers we traded

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 4, 2008 1:16 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

While that's true

That was his worst season in the big leagues, by far, while 2008’s numbers are probably as good as Izturis can do over a full season. I have much more faith in Greene to bounce back in his walk year than I have faith in Izturis to do much of anything next season.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 4, 2008 9:27 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Our next Bi-polar Betty?

I agree with you. Could go either way. I do think that 2004-2007 Greene makes this move potentially very high reward. Just to put another positive spin on it, his power numbers stack up as the best we’ve ever had at this position. Looking past his 27 HR season in 07’…..In 04’ to 06’ he hit 15 HR’s each year. The only Cardinal SS’s that ever hit more were Renteria in 00’ and Daryl Spencer in 60’, both with 16. Greene was slugging over .425 each of those years. We only have had 10 seasons (of 400 plate appearances or more) from our SS position at that level.

Not discounting that this is a gamble, and that it could go very wrong. Or that he lacks on base % ability. There is a really good best case scenario here though.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 4, 2008 3:20 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Without checking the facts

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that if you added up all the home runs hit by everyone who’s played shortstop for us since Renteria left, you’d still be south of 15.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 4, 2008 10:21 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would bet you are wrong...but then again maybe not

2005 Eckstein 8
2006 Eckstein 2
2007 Eckstein 3
2008 Izturis 1

That is 14 from just the “starting” short stops, I bet the backups had more than 1. If you are only talking starters then you are indeed correct otherwise just slightly off

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 4, 2008 10:30 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was talking everyone

but had no idea Eck hit 8 home runs in ’05. What the hell got in to him that year?

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 4, 2008 10:32 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When did the Mitchell Report come out again?

[/sarcasm]

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 4, 2008 10:36 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Larry Walker

Most common 2 hole that year was Larry Walker 44 games, Edmonds 34 games and Nunez 26 games, so I think it says a lot about who was protecting him, when you are followed by Walker, Pujols, Edmonds and Rolen for most of your games

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 4, 2008 10:49 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Further study

I did a game by game analysis of his home runs:

May 17th D Eckstein (1, off B Wagner; 9th inn, 0 on, 1 out to LF) Walker and Pujols due up
May 25th D Eckstein (2, off M Redman; 3rd inn, 1 on, 2 outs to LF). Grudz due up
Jul 30th D Eckstein (3, off G Carrara; 6th inn, 2 on, 2 outs to LF); Nunez due up
Aug 3rd D Eckstein (4, off J Beckett; 3rd inn, 0 on, 1 out to LF); JRod and Pujols due up
Aug 7th D Eckstein (5, off C Reitsma; 9th inn, 3 on, 1 out to LF); JRod and Pujols due up, walk off grand slammer
Aug 27th D Eckstein (6, off M Stanton; 7th inn, 1 on, 0 outs to LF). Edmonds, Pujols and Molina due up
Aug 31st D Eckstein (7, off J Vargas; 3rd inn, 0 on, 1 out to LF); Taguchi and Pujols due up
Sept 21 D Eckstein (8, off R Ortiz; 2nd inn, 1 on, 2 outs to LF); Edmonds due up

So despite my earlier comment a bout Walker it appears Edmonds and JRod were his most common following batters after a HR each with only 2 appearances.

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 4, 2008 10:59 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, I still think it’s cool to know the history of those HRs just for fun :) Thanks for the post. Check out http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2004/09/the-protection-externality-it-doesnt-exist/ sometime for a perspective on whether or not lineup protection really exists, though.

by astrostl on Dec 4, 2008 1:02 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What I think

What I think my research into his HRs showed was that he didn’t really have “protection” consistently from anyone, at least not behind those HRs. The only true protection that I beleive in is protection from IBBs.

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 4, 2008 1:26 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

05 was ful of great moments for Eck

he hit the walk off granny against the Giants, after Pujols pulled J-Rod back to the dugout from the on-deck circle while Eck was at bat. He also had the HR after pulling back the bunt against the Braves – I believe.

by rlgosnell on Dec 4, 2008 5:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Greene's raw stats were worse than Izturis, but park-adjusted they had similar OPS+s

Greene was at 64
Izturis was at 67

Greene has a career 95 OPS+, which is above-average for a shortstop, plus an above-average glove.

-.75 wins offense (probably conservative)
+.75 wins position
+.5 wins fielding
2.5 WAR overall, which is a touch above average.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 4, 2008 10:02 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Except Izturis was +19 plays according to +/-, Inaz had him as a ~20 run player

Greene was not. Greene is likely to be better next year, but he was utterly atrocious last year.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 4, 2008 10:13 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gotcha

Just sayin, Izturis as a player wasn’t actually terrible last year.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 4, 2008 10:24 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I, too, was also considering defense

but, now that I have the time, will definitely read the thread.

by chuckb on Dec 4, 2008 8:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think that it comes down to this:

We’re trading the player we know (Izturis), who has little upside, for one that has a tremendous amount of offensive potential, is in a contract year, and is coming off a horrific season for a last place club.

While he’s not as good defensively as Izturis (if you believe RZR and OOZ, few in the MLB are), he presents a 20+ OPS+ improvement if he improves to his career average, which includes his cruddy 64 OPS+ from last year. It’s not a stretch that he could be a 95-100 OPS+ player next year, which would be large improvement over Cesar.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 4, 2008 10:19 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But!....

…is it worth double the price of Izturis? For one year (contract year), I’m okay with it. I just don’t think he is a drastic improvement over Izturis, but given the SS market, we’re not going to find anybody that is a drastic improvement over Izturis.

by woodfeld on Dec 4, 2008 3:12 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I really don't like this at all

the only way I’d feel comfortable putting Greene on this team is as a spring training NRI. no amount of guaranteed money makes sense, considering they’re already going “cheap” but not offering arbitration to anyone.

I have a love/hate relationship with the Cardinals' middle relief corps.

by madding on Dec 4, 2008 1:14 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually he is sign under market value 6.5 mil

Renteria is expected to sign tomorrow for 2yr 18 mil

by bearcatcardfan on Dec 4, 2008 1:23 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

gfr
The optimist in me says that a vacation from Petco would do KG right, but I haven’t seen/am too busy right now to look for his home/road splits.

does petco kill all hitting or just power hitting?eqfrw

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Dec 4, 2008 1:39 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Greene was eerily as awful

on the road as he was at home. Actually, he hit for more power at home.

In 2006 and 2007, his home split was right on line with 2008 but his away split carried him as an offensive player.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 4, 2008 1:43 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he was also miserable last year vs LHP

contrary to the rest of his career.

I really think he’ll bounce back, based on his BABIP peripherals, although the research done by Chris Dutton and Peter Bendix at THT seems to indicate that he wasn’t as unlucky as I thought he was a month ago…

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 4, 2008 2:01 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I remember you advocating him

I think it might be a good speculative move. I advocated making a long term move here if you can, but if you have to trade Ludwick to do it, or if the Furcal dollars are close to what is rumored then I don’t see where that should happen.

In one sense it is a huge risk, because he was abysmal last year. In another it is not, because you are on the hook for one year again. One drawback is that we are very likely to have to play the same type of game again the next year, and maybe the year after that.

I really want to see what is being given up for him. I’m assuming not much. If this deal happened in 2006, or 2007, it would have been expensive. In that sense it’s a well timed gamble for value. Outside of last year, he held up real well away from Petco, so I feel there’s a good chance this works out. OBP is going to be bad, just a matter of how bad. Hope it is north of .300. I expect some power and solid defense though.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 4, 2008 2:21 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If he bounces back (to what he was before last year)

There’s a pretty good chance he hits ~.280/.330/.500, his home/road stats are astounding.

Khalilbot

by JI on Dec 4, 2008 2:29 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Last 3 years...

Home: .214/.275/.378
Away: .265/.307/.462

by mikedallas45 on Dec 4, 2008 9:25 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, no kidding

I was just trying to point out the reward by removing last season.

Khalilbot

by JI on Dec 4, 2008 11:31 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If he does that

I’ll dance a jig…

As the commenter above posted, his road splits aren’t even that good. He’d have to drastically improve his plate discipline to have an OBP north of .320 next season, which could happen, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 4, 2008 9:30 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wonder how well he will get along with Tony

Is Greene a little “out there”? He fractured his hand last year when he slammed it on a storage chest ending his season. I’m sure it was an act of frustration but it makes you wonder. I can imagine him and Tony getting into it at some point in the season. (Just kidding …I think) He does have one thing going for him that Tony will like …..the MULLET!!

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 4, 2008 5:06 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure

it’s just long hair that happens to be pulled back because he’s wearing a cap.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 4, 2008 1:23 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not really a mullet

More like California surfer-dude hair.

by mojowo11 on Dec 4, 2008 3:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kind of like this dude?


We have Jeff Spicoli playing SS….DUDE!!!!

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 4, 2008 3:44 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's awesome

The best part is that his hair is exactly the same as the two women in the shot.

by mojowo11 on Dec 4, 2008 3:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think this might be a photo of Greene's press conference

after he found out about the trade.

His quote: “Dude I can totally afford to have Van Halen play at my party now!!”

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 4, 2008 3:49 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I read the article in the san diego paper

I was skimming through the comments and I saw Jason Motte and Chris Perez and I flipped out but then I read that post carefully and it was just a fans fantasy so I could breathe again.

by bearcatcardfan on Dec 4, 2008 5:22 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

as long as last year was a "fluke" and not a "lingering injury that nobody's mentioned"

I guess I’m okay with this. It’s one year at $6.5M. I’d be more annoyed but the SS market is so terrible this year. Not sure what we’d get that would be better without spending twice as much.

So, between Miller and Greene, we still have about 11 or 12M to play with.

Next priorities:
Ship Kennedy somewhere.
Get a 2b.
Probably one or two hands for the bullpen.

I guess the real question is whether the bulk of the money goes to a marquee name closer (hoffman) and knock wood for Carpenter, KMac or Boggs to start, or a middle of the pack starter (wolf, looper) and knock wood for Perez or Motte to close well. If we don’t have to eat a chunk of Kennedy’s salary or not, there could be a little more flexibility in the $ dept.

by tom s. on Dec 4, 2008 5:49 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’d definitely take a 93 wOBA+ and #3-ranked 2B defense for “free” and plan to start Kennedy every day if trading him means that we’ll be more or less eating his contract.

by astrostl on Dec 4, 2008 12:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well, he doesn't want to be here.

that’s always fun for the clubhouse.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 4, 2008 1:23 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, but if he's the strong end of a platoon he'll be fine

…and who cares if Kennedy is upset? I don’t. He’s Adam bleeping Kennedy no one cares.

Khalilbot

by JI on Dec 4, 2008 1:24 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, Manny went kamikaze on the Red Sox to force a trade. He’s a superstar-class player, though, and Kennedy might end his career if he tried to hold his breath. Still, the possibility is out there to “lose” him if the human elements aren’t manageable.

by astrostl on Dec 4, 2008 1:46 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It might be different if he was named the starter

TLR really hasn’t given him that much playing time (I’m saying based only on observation). If he were given some sort of guarantee that the job was his to lose and he is going to get most of the ABs against RHP and maybe some chances against LHP maybe he would feel differently.

by OCCardsFan on Dec 4, 2008 2:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

but I don’t see that happening.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 4, 2008 2:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

His trade request was allegedly due to positional uncertainty. I think things would be cool if he were told that he was the everyday 2B, no platooning or jiving around unless things get ugly.

by astrostl on Dec 4, 2008 5:01 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i bet

if they are taking on all of kg’s salary, we will not sign a 2-baseman

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 4, 2008 11:55 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know I get on Hal McRae alot

but maybe he can fix Greene’s approach. And maybe just maybe he will become the 2004-2007 version again or better?

To be honest I am liking this move more and more. Plus this is his contract year so I have a feeling we are going to see some pretty big numbers out of him this season. He will also be in a better line-up than he was in San Diego and he did hit pretty good at Busch in the few times he played there. I know he hit a homer off Looper last year at Busch and I think he hit one in the 06 playoffs as well.

One thing is for sure….I am pretty sure he will be better than Cesar. So that is a big plus. The thought of getting 15-20 HRs out of our SS has me a little excited. If only he can get on base more. Hal McRaeI am looking at you………

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 4, 2008 6:13 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Or Maybe Pujols can fix his approach

n/m

"I have CDO. It's like OCD, but the letters are in alphabetical order. Like they should be."

by BigMOman on Dec 4, 2008 10:40 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You beat me to it

The Man as the honorary hitting coach.

I know he will probably be sloted 6th behind Santa, but I imagine Tony might put him in the two hole occassionally. I think he has potential to do some damage there, but I hate his strikeouts.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Dec 4, 2008 12:01 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would rather see a donkey show permanently placed in the LF bleachers than put .304 OBP in front of Pujols

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 4, 2008 12:03 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

dooooooooooooodd

i laughed,

hard.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 4, 2008 2:14 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like this move for if he doesn't work out its only for a year.....

Just waiting to see what pitching the Cards are giving up for him…….. thats where I am concerned a bit with this trade.

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.-Rogers Hornsby

by thegashousegang on Dec 4, 2008 7:16 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That

should be a stock quote around here.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Dec 4, 2008 9:51 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thats so true

each of these risk moves are each a good idea taken in a vacuum, but it seems like its all we ever do. We never get the impact guy, we get the bargain
and we are alway “pretty good”
It used to not be that way, but since thats been the MO the team has fallen out of contention.

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Dec 4, 2008 3:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Glaus and Walker weren't impact guys?

if we put together a package sufficient to get a real impact guy in a trade, there would be nothing but gnashing and wailing around here. Same thing if we went and put together a Zito-style package to get Sabathia or someone of that ilk.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Dec 4, 2008 4:11 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hudson or Furcal or whomever would be

so would a Burnett or something along those lines.

I know they are injury problems, but all of those guys are at least good when healthy. Greene could be fine but he is just as big of a risk, and he has had four major injuries, and he has shown some inconsistency now hitting.

its not just Sabathia vs. Lopez or something.

Glaus was a godsend, and it was trading our problem for yours and we got lucky as far as injury and production is concerned.

Walker was great for half a year, but he was an old man winding down his career not a building block, plus he was four years ago.

I guess part of what im saying is if a guy is out there we need I just dnot think this team will get him. they will try to make some kind of odd deal and get someone who “could” be good but is super cheap.

im not advocating going out and getting the highest of price players, but splurging for something here and there isnt bad.
It seems like we wont spend on any one special player to make a position clearly an asset, we would rather gamble every year.
and it works many times, but there are many times its a Ponson, or a Clement too, or the many unsuccessful 2b guys. And thats the problem we waste resources on those guys and want to get cute instead of shoring up a position because we are gun shy.
instead of having a great team we have a competitive one
they are are reasonable gambles (some work, some dont) but they are never impact guys.

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Dec 4, 2008 8:14 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

also

ive heard over and over 2009 and money off the books, and now that its here…
its just more of the same.

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Dec 4, 2008 8:15 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but...

big dollar players are also riskier investments. look at the carp contract. if the player becomes ineffective or injured…he doesn’t just hurt you for that year…but years to come. D.GOOCH

-- GOOCH

by GOOCH24 on Dec 4, 2008 11:15 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just don't think that's true

the org was more than willing to open up the checkbook on Rolen, Edmonds, Carpenter, and Pujols. They have also made plenty of more ill-advised decisions.

It’s true that they weren’t fond of outbidding people on the open market, but I’m willing to cut them some slack on that. Especially since this is Mozilak’s first true offseason. Let’s see what he does with the team before we jump on him. There are a lot of ace-type pitchers on the fa market this time around. There’s plenty of money to spend on them, now that we have a cheap SS that didn’t cost any of the mlb roster. We still have a glut of outfielders to trade.

I really doubt if the current roster is our opening day roster. and Greene was a shrewd move. This trade won’t hurt the team, and it coudl likely be a vast help.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Dec 4, 2008 8:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

shortstop market

is full of gambles. who else is there? renteria? he was abysmal, plus he’s old/has no upside. Greene sucked, but at least he’s entering his prime years. Plus he costs 3 mil/yr less and doesn’t require a commitment past this coming season.

I think your gambling/impact analogy is based on false assumptions. There is no specific player the cardinals “need”. There are always multiple options with various levels of risk. In this case, there aren’t any young building block players available in positions the cards need. I’m not sure what kind of move you’re advocating. I’d only want the cards to be massive spenders on a guy who will be around and producing for years and years, even if he’s hurt for one of them. Otherwise, keep it flexible and don’t get screwed by billy beane.

by spencegrif on Dec 5, 2008 10:09 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Most of acquisitions of big names aren't good deals.

Much better to go with lots of smaller bargains and develop the exciting guys from within. Ludwick, Ankiel, and Pujos aren’t enough excitement?

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 4, 2008 4:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

Acquiring “impact” or “exciting” players from outside one’s own organization is usually cost-prohibitive either from a $$$$ or prospect standpoint.

I do however see a future where teams trade minor league players for minor league players in an effort to fill organizational holes. These types of transactions will be a true test of an organization’s ability to identify talent.

by indakind on Dec 4, 2008 5:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

also im not saying we need to do this every year or for ever hole

but maybe ONCE if we need something.
sometimes you need something and its expensive you just need to bite the bullet and buy it because its necessary
thats why many of us think they are kind of cheap.

none of us expect them to sign Zito, Soriano, or C.C. in any year

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Dec 4, 2008 8:18 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just dont want to waste Pujols career on average teams that dont have a shot

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Dec 4, 2008 8:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How much of an offensive impact do we really need at SS anyway?

There seems to be a general tone of apathy toward this deal. I think we upgraded our position (albeit slightly) without costing us significant amounts of salary or prospects.

Also, how much offense do we really need anyway? We had ONE player perform above his expectations, and several perform way below them, yet we still scored more runs than most of the league.

I am personally excited about our lineup as it is.

1. Schu/Barton/Rasmus
2. Duncan/Ank/Rasmus
3. Pujols
4. Luddy
5. Glaus
6. Molina
7. Greene
8. Kennedy/Grit/Ryan/Green/Lopez

Even if Ludwick regresses some, we should still be pretty stout. If Pujols’s elbow is stronger, his power numbers may actually rise. Glaus WILL hit lefties better this year. Ank should stay a bit healthier, and hopefully stop swinging at everything thrown at him. The Schumaker/Mather/Barton platoon should always throw a hot bat or a good matchup on the field. If Rasmus makes the team, he will provide a good OBP and some fair power numbers along with his good speed. Molina may regress a bit, but he seems to have found is stroke as a line-drive singles hitter.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 5, 2008 11:16 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also, how much offense do we really need anyway?

As much as we can? Why stop getting better? A run scored = a run saved

by JI on Dec 5, 2008 1:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

While Ank can definitely improve

he did take his fair share of walks, and his batting eye wasn’t that bad.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2008 2:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Projection

Marcel: .301 wOBA (600 PAs) = -18runs
Chone: +5runs
Positional Adjustment: +7.5runs
Replacement Level: +20runs
Total: +7runs

Just looking at the numbers, Khalil looks like he’s about half a win better than replacement. That would me he’s worth around $3M. So at first blush, the Cardinals seem to be overpaying. A few factors to consider:

1) Short of Rafeal Furcal, the SS options are limited on the free agent market.
2) PETCO is hell to hit in. A bunch of Padres hitters have bemoaned this fact publicly (including Brian Giles) so it’s possible that there’s a psychological factor for Greene that would be remedied by moving out of PETCO. This could improve his offense some.
3) His 2008 Marcel .322 but he posted a .264 wOBA. His regressed version would be a slightly higher which points to some form of bad luck. (I’d love for StatCorner and Fangraphs to get their numbers lined up. I think they are handling certain events in wOBA differently.) A .322 wOBA would be be 10 runs better than his 2009 projection.
4) I’m not sure what aging factor to apply to Greene who will turn 30 next year. Maybe dock him 2 runs or so?

That’s what the numbers point to at least.

Nice Robot

by azruavatar on Dec 4, 2008 8:05 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

left out the positional adjustment

Total should be +14 runs. No addition before 8:00am.

Nice Robot

by azruavatar on Dec 4, 2008 8:42 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sure

but it’s also possible that we’re looking for reasons to answer down numbers when we should simply call it decline.

I’d be willing to call Greene a league average player next year but not much beyond that.

Nice Robot

by azruavatar on Dec 4, 2008 11:19 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do you have any good links to average performance per year, per position?

by astrostl on Dec 4, 2008 12:01 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The positional adjustment takes care of that.

Compare the player to league average and then use a positional adjustment. Tango’s done a lot of work on it and if you search The BOOK Blog for ‘positional adjustments’ you’ll find some detailed articles on them.

Nice Robot

by azruavatar on Dec 4, 2008 12:03 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think they are handling certain events in wOBA differently.

They are, it may have something to do with IBBs. Now that Matthew ’s back feel free to ask away.

Khalilbot

by JI on Dec 4, 2008 11:34 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

http://www.statcorner.com/blog/2008/11/woba.html

“Just so y’all know, the reason that our wOBA is different to Fangraphs’s is because we include reached base on error as part of the formula and they don’t.”

by astrostl on Dec 4, 2008 11:36 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh sweet Jesus

No joke, I had a dream last night about the Cards signing Khalil Greene and woke up to see the news. Stupid collective subconscious…

I have to say I’m pretty disappointed with the signing for reasons having almost everything to do with cosmetic issues for the Cards. Seems like a poor aesthetic fit, even though he’s put up decent numbers at times. Does that make me a bad fan?

I think I’m going to call in sick to work with JoeMorganitis.

"Well, folks, this game began as a tiny worm and is blossoming into a large cobra." - Mike "The Moon Man" Shannon

by Tudor's Electric Fan on Dec 4, 2008 8:33 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Khalil Greene bad aesthetically?

The man has intense flair, if nothing else.

by mojowo11 on Dec 4, 2008 3:49 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mo never makes any moves

If Mo makes a move, then Mo is not making a good move. It’s 1 year for greene, it provides the 1 year stopgap to get a fix on kozma and our greene to see how there moving along. I think this could come out on the good end for us. And why is everyone " wah he was horrible last year" yeah and sometimes in baseball, get this, people have bad years………Woooooooooooooooooooooo kinda dumb right to have a bad year, wow.

by from First to Third on Dec 4, 2008 8:44 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sometimes people have bad years, yes

But he didn’t have merely a “bad” year. He fell off a cliff. He went from consistently productive to offensive abomination.

I do expect he’ll bounce back, though, at least assuming there’s no injury holdover problem.

by mojowo11 on Dec 4, 2008 3:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We may have just screwed the Cubs

one article I read believes that the salary relief from dumping Greene may allow the Padres to keep from trading Jake Peavy.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 4, 2008 8:52 AM EST reply reply actions actions   1 recs

bwahahahahaha

that’d be really really great.

Add Peavy to that rotation and… oh man

by Scarecrow7775 on Dec 4, 2008 8:57 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Whatever, they'd still choke

And then they’d be on the hook for 120 million to 8 players for 2010 and not have a single average major leaguer in their system.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 4, 2008 10:15 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just a thought

Peavy’s entire postseason career consists of two starts against the Cardinals. We beat him up both times (though he was pitching with a broken rib in one of them, iirc).

Peavy to the Cubs! :P

by mojowo11 on Dec 4, 2008 3:52 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

screwed the cubs?

Any deal is worth it if we screw the cubs… LOL

If Greene has a good year for the Redbirds and Peavy stays in San Diego this deal is well worth every dime. If it just keeps Peavy with the Padres it still might be worth it…. :)

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.-Rogers Hornsby

by thegashousegang on Dec 4, 2008 9:03 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also the Braves...

who, if they aren’t going to trade for Jake Peavy, will presumably have Kelly Johnson available to play 2B for El Birdos. Whereas Greene is pretty clearly going to be a stopgap, I view Johnson as a long-term solution at second. I mentioned it in the beginning of the thread, but it’s known that Atlanta wants an outfeld bat, and its further known that we have Ryan Ludwick on our team. Ludwick for Johnson would be a big move. Just sayin…

"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."

by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Dec 4, 2008 10:15 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we'd

need to get more back in that deal IMO

by eglasier on Dec 4, 2008 10:40 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it's not that he can't field

he’s a league-average 2B, within the margin of error for defensive measurements. I’d love to have KJ playing 2B for us, all things being equal.

The “defense” argument against him is that we have an elite fielder at 2B now, and KJ isn’t enough better than Kennedy offensively to justify trading Ludwick for him.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 4, 2008 1:24 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What about...

….Ludwick to Texas for Ian Kinsler?

by sabertooth5185 on Dec 4, 2008 1:32 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it would take

more than just ludwick

I hate winter!!!!

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 4, 2008 1:33 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Texas needs pitchers anyway,

wheras the braves seem to be building to compete now and are absolutely in the market for an outfielder like Ludwick.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 4, 2008 1:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not so sure...

…it would take much more. Texas has Joaquin Arias banging on the door for a regular MI job and they could really use another bopper in the outfield to go with Hamilton and Byrd. It’s a question of relative needs…

by sabertooth5185 on Dec 4, 2008 2:06 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Murphy might be that guy for them

Texas is also probably going to be dealing a catcher or 5 at some point as well to fill some needs.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 4, 2008 2:15 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They scored the most runs in the MLB last year

They scored 50 more runs than the next team. Offense isn’t really their problem, I don’t think, even with Milton Bradley likely leaving.

by mojowo11 on Dec 4, 2008 3:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

suddenly this deal is not-bad

Haha

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 4, 2008 10:30 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If they’re throwing prospects and/or players for the privilege to pay it, I would be amused to see Peavy’s contract added to the wall at http://www.cubsnet.com/node/790 . They’re already on the hook for 80.9M in 2011 – with six (6) players! 50M in 2012 for three (3)! And thes are are only names like Soriano, Lee, Dempster, and Fukudome. They’re fielding some quality teams right now, but man, that payroll.

by astrostl on Dec 4, 2008 11:25 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

according to olney via mlbtraderumors . . .

“The Cubs and Padres "have a basic framework in place” for a Jake Peavy deal built around third baseman Josh Vitters. Things may pick up after the Cubs’ ownership situation is resolved." I don’t know much about Vitters . . . he has played in low A ball it looks like. He has 324 ABs and put up .327/.435/.762.

If the Padres want a guy to man the hot corner in the future, it would seem like the Cards match up well. Even excluding the Walrus & Freese (who they may not want back)—the Cards could offer Craig . . .

"I wouldn’t have seen it if I hadn’t believed it.’" ~Shannon

by sprfldcard on Dec 4, 2008 11:56 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Better yet

if they are looking for a 3rd basemen, why did they trade Freese for Jim Edmonds charred remains?

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 4, 2008 12:11 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well, freese was

really struggling when he got traded . . . seems like he was called a C+ prospect—the cards jumped him two levels to AAA and he bloomed . . . but your right, it could just be idle speculation like 50 to 99% of hot stove talk is

"I wouldn’t have seen it if I hadn’t believed it.’" ~Shannon

by sprfldcard on Dec 4, 2008 12:26 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's more about Vitters

He’s the best player in the Cubs paltry farm system, so even if you didn’t have a need for a third baseman, you would make him the centerpiece of the trade because the Cubs have very little else to offer you in terms of prospects.

Vitters isn’t comparable to Freese — he’s a top 50 prospect. Freese wasn’t in the top 100 when he was traded. He really came into his own this year. The Pads thought they were getting the 2005 Jim Edmonds for a lesser prospect in hopes that a lefty power bat could push them to the top of the division — it just didn’t work out that way.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 4, 2008 1:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Vitters is a much better prospect than Craig/Freese

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 4, 2008 12:23 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I believe you . . .

but can you show & tell . . .

"I wouldn’t have seen it if I hadn’t believed it.’" ~Shannon

by sprfldcard on Dec 4, 2008 12:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

finishing a thought . . .

there is so much time & distance between A & AAA that it would seem easy for a player to struggle—lose his shine & distinction as a good/great prospect . . . which is why i’m asking about vitters

"I wouldn’t have seen it if I hadn’t believed it.’" ~Shannon

by sprfldcard on Dec 4, 2008 12:34 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the hype is definately there with Vitters

but he hasn’t done a thing above low A ball and he’s been there for a year and a half. People considered him the best hitter in the draft, well I’d hope the best hitter in the draft could rake a low A in his second go around there.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 4, 2008 12:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i realize

that numbers don’t always tell the whole story on a prospect—but here are Freese and Craigs numbers

Allen Craig’s minor league line 363/.498/.861
Freese’s minor league line .385/.529/.914

what do people see in Vitters that makes him so much better. Is he struggling to adjust? Lots of tools that haven’t been put together yet? Injury plagued?

"I wouldn’t have seen it if I hadn’t believed it.’" ~Shannon

by sprfldcard on Dec 4, 2008 12:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wait

Are those the traditional Avg. / OBP / Slg.? Surely not, right? They have to be OBP / SLG / OPS, don’t they?

by Ray Lankford on Dec 4, 2008 12:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you're correct

they were obp/slg/ops here are avg/obp/slg
.307 .385 .529 Freese
.300 .363 .498 Craig
.290 .327 .435 Vitters

"I wouldn’t have seen it if I hadn’t believed it.’" ~Shannon

by sprfldcard on Dec 4, 2008 1:00 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know Vitters is really young compared to Craig and Freese

I know Freese went to college (not sure about Craig) but Vitters was only like 17 when he was drafted. Although I’d still like to see a little production at Peoria from my first round pick if I were the cubs.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 4, 2008 1:07 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that could be Mo's plan.

Peavy would make the Cubs absolute frontrunners by FAR for the central crown. Maybe he feels that taking some salary off the Padres’ books will discourage them from giving their ace to the Cubs. I know it’s a long shot, but this could be a much more brilliant GM move than we know.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 4, 2008 1:26 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nice

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 4, 2008 4:53 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

high risk, high reward

If Greene reverts to his pre-2008 offensive stats, then this is a great deal. It almost doesn’t matter who we give up provided that they really are relief prospects. I don’t think guys like Perez or Motte qualify as prospects anymore.

Then again, Greene could stink the joint up.

I wonder;
Is this a one year stop-gap?
A buy low and resign long term (provided he performs at a level that warrants resigning)?

What do we have hear- contract wise?

by Scarecrow7775 on Dec 4, 2008 8:55 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's low risk

We (presumably) aren’t giving anything up of value, and it’s a one year deal.

Khalilbot

by JI on Dec 4, 2008 11:36 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

$$$$$$

Given the Friars situation, I’m assuming the Cards are picking up all the 6.5 mil for next year

by Scarecrow7775 on Dec 4, 2008 9:03 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ozzie Smith

It just occurred to me that the last time the Cards made a trade with the Pads for a short-stop we landed Ozzie.

Here’s hoping this one works out half as well.

by Scarecrow7775 on Dec 4, 2008 9:04 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Leadoff hitter?

Greene’s not gonna be a leadoff hitter. I’m wondering if this means we’re keeping Skip and playing him somewhere..

Or else we’re committing right now to Colby leading off. HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

by sdrone on Dec 4, 2008 9:07 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah

He doesn’t have anywhere near the OBP to bat leadoff. If Tony keeps batting the pitcher 8th then I see Greene hitting 7th and the 2B batting 9th.

by mikedallas45 on Dec 4, 2008 9:29 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

With this deal we have an interesting lineup construction...

Since Greene really shouldn’t bat at the top of the order and doesn’t really help the club in the 9th spot either, there’s a real dilemma in lineup construction at the present time: We have one too many 6 and 7 hitters in the lineup (Ankiel, Molina, Greene). I’m assuming that the current lineup would have Kennedy batting 9th.

The question is, which of these lineups is the best one, assuming that Greene returns to somewhere near 2007 form?

Lineup 1:

  1. Rasmus/Schu/Barton
  2. Ankiel
  3. Pujols
  4. Ludwick
  5. Glaus
  6. Greene
  7. Molina
  8. Pitcher
  9. Kennedy

Lineup #2:

  1. Rasmus/Schu/Barton
  2. Glaus
  3. Pujols
  4. Ludwick
  5. Ankiel
  6. Greene
  7. Molina
  8. Pitcher
  9. Kennedy

It basically comes down to whoever bats second, I like Glaus up there because of his high OBP, but he seems to be more comfortable in the 5th spot in the lineup. If Ank is able to post a .350+ OBP he could hit up there as well. If the club was able to dump Kennedy somewhere and acquire a 2nd baseman that could lead off that would solve a lot of problems, namely, we wouldn’t have to play Schumaker and could replace him with another bopper like Duncan or Mather, or the team could move Ank to right, play Rasmus in centerfield and bat him second, which is where he belongs, imo.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 4, 2008 9:40 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well I'd say

Molina 6, Greene 7, Pitcher 8 would make sense. Molina can’t run, Greene has the pop to allow him to jog home. The total lack of walks matters less with the pitcher behind him (though of course this would encourage Greene to swing at even more than 35% of out of zone pitches). Don’t know how much else we can say given that it’s gotta be a certainty that we trade off some of the OF logjam…

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 4, 2008 10:24 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree.

I always felt having Molina bat in front of the pitcher was kinda defeating the purpose last year since it was so difficult for the pitcher to bunt him over. And, without having the pitcher hit behind him should help Yadi see better pitches.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 4, 2008 10:34 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Walks don't push your batting average over .300

especially since walks aren’t reflected in batting average and also since he swings at so many pitches out of the strike zone.

Oh, and he walked a whopping 32 times last year.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 4, 2008 12:49 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You seem to think Molina is getting all kinds of free walks

and that he can’t hit. Although, the contrary is actually true in both cases.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 4, 2008 1:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Molina is a below average hitter

and if he gets a couple of extra walks because he hits in front of the P, good on us.

Khalilbot

by JI on Dec 4, 2008 1:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not for a superior defensive catcher he's not

If you take into account his defense, he’s an above average catcher overall. I’d rather have him behind the plate than have a horrible defensive catcher that can hit.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 4, 2008 1:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well

his defense has zilch to do with his hitting and saying “molina is a below average hitter” is not saying anything about his overall game…just his hitting.

by lopey986 on Dec 4, 2008 1:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not sure the LL memes

are going to transfer to VEB. Whether that’s good or bad, I’m not sure.

Nice Robot

by azruavatar on Dec 4, 2008 1:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I blame draysbay

I like that even VEB’s glib affirmatives are based on numbers.

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 5, 2008 10:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's a nonVEB one.

I see it at LL all the time and assumed it originated in those parts since there’s a lot of crazies* over there.

*I enjoy the crazies.

Nice Robot

by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2008 11:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know what league average catchers are but...

Molina is a career: .262/.316/.360 hitter, and had a .304/.349/.392 2008. His OBP has been at least .040 higher than his BA every season due to walks. I don’t think him walking has anything to do with the pitcher (he has around 3-5 IBBs each year too) but more to do with his good eye for the strike zone.

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 4, 2008 1:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

.040 ISOP is pretty low

League average for a C is .255/.328/.387, or a .073 ISOP.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 4, 2008 1:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

2008

in 2008 he had a .088 ISO
and career is .096

I am using the PECOTA ISO = (2B + 3B + (HR*3)) / AB

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 4, 2008 1:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

isolated patience

isop, not iso. OBP-BA.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 4, 2008 1:56 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

huh?

I have never heard of ISOP, also what does walks have to do with Patience when you are hitting close to .300 anyway? I can be patient yet able to make contact on the balls I was waiting for. A better stat for Patience might be swinging strikes or swings outside the strike zone.

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 4, 2008 2:09 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

from your original post
"His OBP has been at least .040 higher than his BA "

OBP-BA is ISOp. It’s a stat I first saw over at baseballprospectus, but it’s been used a number of places with various names. Players with high ISOp are valuable in that their offensive value doesn’t fall off a cliff when they slump (a la Yadi 2005/6).

I was just pointing out that Molina’s “OBP-BA” is significantly lower than league average for a catcher. He hit .300 this year, so he was valuable, but if he has bad luck next year it could impact his value much more than, say, when Adam Dunn has a run of bad luck.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 4, 2008 3:15 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes

But I didn’t call it patience and I have never heard of the ISOP stat nor was I able to find anything but references to it, no page detailing how to calculate it (though it seems simple enough). I also disagree with it being a good measure of someone’s patience.

To the original comment though I was mainly stating that Yadi has been consistent in taking .040 OBP worth of walks regardless of where he has hit or has been behind him so I doubt putting Greene behind him vs the pitcher would change much about his walk rate.

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 4, 2008 3:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

However,

I am not sure how good of an idea it is to have a free swinger hitting in front of the pitcher. He will never see a strike.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 4, 2008 11:05 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why no Greene in the 2 spot?

It might helps his odds of seeing a pitch in the zone. Though I most certainly do not enjoy his OBP numbers and what they would do to Albert’s RBI chances.

For some reason, I don't enjoy watching Big Mac hit #62, but I fondly remember Ray Lankford blasting the ball out of the park in the same game. He had one sweet swing!!

by miniboscorino on Dec 4, 2008 5:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Skippy

Could he play 2nd? He sure grounds out to it enough (when he’s not slapping singles over it)

"I don't believe what I just saw!" ~ Jack Buck

by itsalemmon1019 on Dec 4, 2008 10:34 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What about trying Greene

in the 2 hole? with him being such a free swinger, having #5 behind him might give him some pitches to hit

by let'er rip skip on Dec 4, 2008 12:12 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd entertain it

and with all of his strikeouts, we’d still have a guy on first for Albert.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 4, 2008 12:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Personally, I’d hate to put that low of an OBP in the top of the order and wouldn’t expect him to put up better numbers by batting in front of Pujols per studies such as http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2004/09/the-protection-externality-it-doesnt-exist/ . Have there been any new findings on protection analysis?

by astrostl on Dec 4, 2008 12:55 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tell Ryan Ludwick hitting in front of Pujos doesn't help

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 4, 2008 1:09 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He didn't hit that much better when he hit in front of Pujols

Ankiel hit better this year hitting behind him, than he did in front of him.

There’s not much of an effect.

I would argue that hitting in front of Pujols should be harder because pitchers should be going max effort to get you out so there’s no baserunners on when he comes up.

Khalilbot

by JI on Dec 4, 2008 1:23 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ludwick - Small sample size

2nd .339/.407/.701 1.108OPS
4th .295/.369/.587 .956OPS

He had about 1/2 as many ABs in the 2nd slot though

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 4, 2008 1:34 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and for the year at .342

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 4, 2008 1:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What I'm saying is that

1) It was a small sample, so whatever
2) But even if you ignored that, once you dig a little deeper he was pretty similar in each spot

Khalilbot

by JI on Dec 4, 2008 1:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Was I disagreeing with you?

All I did was post the facts, both are similarly good, both are his most ABs and better then other positions he was in and his BABIP was elevated all year long, thus he is a perfect candidate for regression, I think he might have been better in front of Pujols mainly do to the pressure of hitting in an RBI spot vs the pressure in an OBP spot.

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 4, 2008 1:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That depends

if Albert Pujols is hitting #3 and Adam Kennedy is hitting #5, you should adjust accordingly if there is a runner on 2nd base.

Don’t laugh, Adam Kennedy at #5 could happen!

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 4, 2008 2:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He was 5 last year a few times

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 4, 2008 2:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hell, he was #4 a few times last year! [barf]

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Dec 4, 2008 5:03 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shouldn't doesn't mean they don't

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 4, 2008 2:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When Duncan/Ludwick hit second

They swing away like any other. I’m pretty sure that LaRussa emphasizes to them that he wants them to hack like a “4 hitter” would and not to try to punch the ball the other way for a single.

Roles are stupid. Hitters should hit to the style that suits them regardless of where they bat.

Khalilbot

by JI on Dec 4, 2008 2:29 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ankiel hit worse in the 2 hole

because almost all of those ABs were vs. LHPs. There is a very real Pujols efffect in spite of what the general theory of protection might say.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 4, 2008 2:14 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"almost all of those ABs were vs. LHPs."

Where did you find those double-situational splits? That would be a cool thing to be able to look up.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 4, 2008 3:24 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

MLB has some double situational splits

but they don’t have batting order splits at all it seems

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 4, 2008 3:32 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can't "prove" it

but I remember that Ank was hitting four/five early in the year against RHPs and hitting second vs. LHPs. I wish those types of stats were available, but you are just going to have to trust me….or not. No time today to sift through gamelogs for the whole season, but a spot check of the April games verifies that. He may have batted second a few times against RHPs, but usually not.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 4, 2008 5:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that would make some sense

since Duncan was in the lineup early in the season against RHP.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 4, 2008 6:01 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Try telling me that sample sizes don’t help :/ The link I provided scientifically tests every plate appearance for every player from 1984-1992. I don’t see the value in focusing two shortened seasons for a single player in comparison to that.

by astrostl on Dec 4, 2008 1:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ugh, no. You want guys on base in front of Pujols/Ludwick/etc.

Why would pitchers give him pitches to hit when they know he’ll swing at anything?

I’d seriously consider Pujols in the #2 hole — more ABs and more good hitters after him to drive him in.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 4, 2008 1:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think if you hit Glaus second

and Ludwick/Ankiel 4th and 5th, you’ll be fine

Khalilbot

by JI on Dec 4, 2008 1:23 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like him in the 2 hole also

the #4 hole would be ok too but, to me, the extra PAs are worth it.

by chuckb on Dec 4, 2008 8:28 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

really hope worrel is involved

he seems to be disgruntled

guy deserves a shot somewhere, even if its with the pads. They do have a history of using quirky relievers- Cla Meredith comes to mind.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 4, 2008 9:36 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Holy crap

He is clearly pissed. *

*I’d be pissed to if they kept calling up Jimenez over me after posting those numbers.

Nice Robot

by azruavatar on Dec 4, 2008 9:41 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What a baby.....

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Dec 4, 2008 9:44 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Did you read that?
I just wanted to hit the ball hard somewhere to be honest with you. I crushed that ball, as you seen. I can hit a little bit; I hit in college. I would like to get more at bats in the future. If the Cardinals would have given more (time) in the big leagues as a middle reliever, I would have gotten more at bats. I don’t handle the bat like most pitchers.

Like that can’t possibly be the real Mark Worrell. If it is, his agent needs to contact Midol about an endorsement deal they’re a match made in heaven. The pitching stuff, okay, he should shut his mouth in public but whatever, but that’s unbelievable.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 4, 2008 10:42 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just double but-ed a sentence. Whoops

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 4, 2008 10:43 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think he understands what the duties of a middle relief pitcher actually entails

Hey Mark, if our middle relief is getting a lot of at bats, then we’ve got big issues…………….

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 4, 2008 10:48 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Big issues?

Like pulling OF’ers in the 6th inning for defensive replacements? Those kinds of big issues with roster management? :D

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 4, 2008 10:50 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just wanted to hit the ball hard somewhere to be honest with you. I crushed that ball, as you seen. I can hit a little bit; I hit in college. I would like to get more at bats in the future. If the Cardinals would have given more (time) I hadn’t walked half the batters I faced in the big leagues as a middle reliever, I would have gotten more at bats. I don’t handle the bat like most pitchers.

fixed.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 4, 2008 12:05 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh, fer pity's sake,

offhand allusions to PMS do not constitute misogyny.

"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill

by lordsummer on Dec 9, 2008 8:14 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Okay.

Watch the sexism, please.

by spants on Dec 9, 2008 7:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Dec 4, 2008 11:07 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Make that two babies.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Dec 4, 2008 11:08 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nice!

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 4, 2008 11:36 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Name-calling aside

Worrell airing his grievances aloud isn’t going to help anyone (even himself). That said, he has been passed over for inferior relievers last year.

Nice Robot

by azruavatar on Dec 4, 2008 11:52 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But Jiminez's

role is “Whipping Boy.” Not sure Worrell wants that role.

by spants on Dec 4, 2008 2:55 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sadly

for M Worrell’s case, Jimenez’ very pedestrian numbers were mostly far better than his. I think it is probably a good thing for the org that both of them are gone. At least we actually got something of value for Worrell.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 4, 2008 5:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Given his comments...

…about being better than some of the Cardinals’ “up-and-coming prospects,” I don’t think Worrell had Jiminez in mind. Try Perez, Motte, or McClellan, in which case I wish him a certain kind of luck in SD.

by Forsch31 on Dec 5, 2008 9:56 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

C'mon Sooner!

what’s the matter w/ you? You’ve been around here long enough to know better than that!

by chuckb on Dec 4, 2008 8:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

After reading that

I’d be surprised if it wasn’t Worrell.

Our country reeks of trees. Our yaks are really large. And they smell like rotting beef carcasses. And we have to clean up after them. And our saddle sores are the best. We proudly wear women's clothing. While searing sand blows up our skirts.

And the buzzards, they soar overhead. And poisonous snakes will devour us whole. Our bones will bleach in the sun. And we will probably go to hell. And that is our great reward. For be-ing the-uh Ro-yal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!

by Tackle Box on Dec 4, 2008 10:38 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would be surprised if it was him

it seemed like a joke, if that was real then he surely is a baby

"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."

by StLHugo on Dec 4, 2008 10:50 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Please explain to me, because I really want to know.

why someone in your organization, performing well at the highest level, not one, but two years in a row, doesn’t have a clue what his future with you is. He was passed over. Did someone ever sit down and tell him what they perceived his deficiencies to be?

You say he’s being a “baby” for speaking up—after two years? And the minute he does, he’s in a trade?

I hate hearing this kind of stuff. I think it’s no way to handle players who are ASSETS, as long as you own the rights to them you need to treat them as such. I’ve posted about this type of thing before, and the Cardinals really need to start thinking about how they treat ALL of their players. Every single one of them-from the lowest minors to the biggest superstar, should be treated with respect. Every one of those players have friends who are professional baseball players. As they move from team to team, they talk about how they were treated before-if the Cardinals want to be the first choice of the players that DO have a choice, they really ought to just fix it. It’s bad public relations, it’s bad player relations, but I guess the attitude is that we own you for six years, you’re just crap….

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 4, 2008 5:56 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you're reading a lot into the words of one particular player

I also think that you’re taking his honesty for granted. If this was another player talking about Worrell that’s one thing, but he’s talking about himself and about how he “never got a chance” and “never got spoken to about anything”. I find that really hard to believe considering the organizations efforts toward player development.

Should every player know exactly where they stand with the organization and how the organization feels about them? I don’t think so, and I have a hard time believing that there are non-baseball organizations that operate in that manner as well. Mark should be more concerned about going out and doing his job than whether the organization likes him and has a spot for him. If he goes out and does a stellar job than the club will make room for him somewhere — I just don’t think that he’s done that.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 4, 2008 6:02 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, I find it disturbing.

and I don’t think 2 weeks qualifies as a “chance.”

There’s no indication that Mark Worrell didn’t go out and do his job.

They don’t have to say anything to him, and he says they didn’t. It’s the Cardinal Way.

 

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 4, 2008 6:36 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He also said later in the article

“I’ve done everything they’ve asked of me”

So obviously they asked him to do something right? Or he just talking out of both sides of his mouth. I wish him well in his new home on a last place team.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 4, 2008 6:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you're looking at this with a little tunnel vision

In your perfect world example of how a professional baseball organization is supposed to run, do you have any idea how impossible that would be to accomplish, let alone even being realistic?

And how many organizations run exactly like the Cardinals? I’d feel pretty confident saying almost all of them (if not all of them). The only reason you don’t know about it is because you aren’t tuned in to hearing it. This article showed up on a blog and I bet it only made it to mlbtraderumors because that guy checks VEB regularly for information.

They can’t coddle every single player and honestly, they really shouldn’t coddle any of their players. What are they supposed to tell a guy who is a fringe player? “Well, you aren’t very good, but you fill a role right here in Springfield, Missouri, so you’ll probably stay here the rest of your career.” Wow, that’s a way to inspire. Or are you saying they should lie to all of their players to get the most out of them?

Or maybe, the player takes it upon himself to know that absolutely nothing is handed to you in this sport. There are hundreds of guys who can do your job (especially when you’re a right handed relief pitcher) and you are 100% replaceable. Know that, work your ass off, and keep your mouth shut a