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Type B Negative

I'll admit it. When I saw that the Cardinals didn't offer arbitration to Braden Looper, I was more than a little bit puzzled. It seems like a win/ win proposition to me; either Looper signs elsewhere on a multi-year deal, and the Cardinals take the draft picks, or Looper accepts and comes back in 2009 to help shore up the backside of the Cards' rotation. Not a bad deal either way.

Well, after further reflection, as well as discussing it with several people, I still kinda just don't get it. Reading over the comments section from yesterday's post here, I see that a lot of people are of the opinion that the economy is beginning to have a real impact on the way teams are approaching player signings and retention this year. I suppose I can see that; when the Yankees don't offer any of their players arbitration either, it's clear that something pretty serious is going on here. Even so, I still think that not offering Looper arbitration is the kind of move that could very well come back and bite the Cardinals in the ass if they don't make some sort of additional moves to shore up the pitching heading into next season.

Anyhow, I think the economics of the thing have been debated pretty thoroughly here; I really don't have a whole lot to add. What I wanted to do today is take a look at the type of draft pick the Cards are passing up here by refusing to offer arbitration to Looper, both from the Cardinals' perspective and in a more general sense.

Someone in the comments yesterday went through the Cards' drafts from the last thirty years or so and came up with how many players they've gotten contributions from out of the first and supplemental rounds. I didn't get nearly that involved, as I was more interested in the recent drafting habits, specifically since the Cardinals overhauled their scouting and drafting wing. 

In the 2008 draft, the Cards had one pick in the compensatory round, and they used it to take Lance Lynn, a college righthander out of the University of Mississippi. The actual value of Lynn won't be known for quite a while, so any speculation on how well the Cards did here is essentially useless at this point. However, I will say that two of my very favourite players in the entire draft went in the supplemental round this year. Jake Odorizzi, the high school kid from Highland, Illinois, went to the Brewers with the 32nd overall pick, and Ryan Flaherty, a shortstop out of Vanderbilt, went to the Cubs at 41. Flaherty especially hurt me, because the Cards passed on him to take Lynn, and I think that Flaherty could have been a part of the Cardinal middle infield sooner rather than later. 

Of the other players in the supplemental round in '08, the most notable might be Conor Gillaspie, a third baseman out of Wichita State who a lot of analysts are saying may be the closest player to the majors of any 2008 draftee. Still, it's too early to really rate many of these players. Got to give it some time. 

Going back to 2007, we've got a little bit better view. The Cardinals had a sandwich pick in '07, and they used it to take Clayton Mortensen, the sinkerballer out of Gonzaga who finished up his first full season in Triple A. Mortensen's ultimate ceiling is certainly debatable, but he's almost guaranteed to contribute in some fashion at the major league level in the next season or two. Not a bad deal. 

Other notable players from the '07 sandwich round: 

  • Josh Smoker, LHP- #31 (Nationals) 
  • Nick Noonan, SS/2B- #32 (Giants)
  • Todd Frazier, SS- #34 (Reds) 
  • Brett Cecil, LHP- #38 (Blue Jays) 
  • Sean Doolittle, 1B #41 (Athletics) 
  • Josh Donaldson, C #48 (Cubs) 
  • Nick Hagadone, LHP #55 (Red Sox) 

That's a pretty good group, to be honest. Smoker is a high school lefty with a big ceiling. Noonan is likely to move to second eventually from his drafted position of shortstop, but his bat is very real. Frazier has pretty much zero chance of playing in the middle infield at the major league level, but is proving to be an absolute monster on the offensive side of the game. Josh Donaldson, the catcher that the Cubs nabbed at 48, was a part of the package that brought them Rich Harden this summer. 

Like I said, this is really a solid group. All the players listed above look as if they could very well end up being major league players before all is said and done. Of course, there are also plenty of other guys taken in the supplemental round that haven't done anything to impress yet, but I think it should be clear that there are some very good players available in the 31-50 sort of range that the supplemental round usually covers. 

The Cardinals had a sandwich pick in 2006 as well, and they took the Wild Thing himself with said pick, Mr. Christopher Perez. So far, it's looking like a fantastic draft pick, as Perez has put himself into position that one could consider him the favourite to close for the Birds next year in less than three years since his was drafted. He's not perfect, of course, but even if Perez doesn't end up improving his control enough to close, he already has a ton of value in a trade, or as a setup type reliever. Excellent value overall. 

The 2006 sandwich round was not, to be honest, a particularly distinguished one. The Dodgers started it out by taking Preston Mattingly at 31, and Mattingly has failed to distinguish himself in pro ball to this point. Unfortunately, that appears to have set the tone for the entire supplemental round that year, as there are only a couple of names that really jump out at you. 

  • Joba Chamberlain, RHP #41 (Yankees) 
  • Emanuel Burriss, SS #33 (Giants) 
  • Adrian Cardenas, SS/2B #37 (Phillies) 
  • Pedro Beato, RHP #32 (Orioles) 

Like I said, not a whole lot of players here that just absolutely jump out at you, but there is one pretty serious name on that list. Chamberlain was seen as a risky pick at the time, a heavy kid with a good fastball but work ethic and injury issues. We all know how things have gone since then. Burriss is looking like the Giants' second baseman of the very near future, and projects to be a solid top of the order type hitter with good speed and a glove that most consider to be a bit better than average. Cardenas' name has been tossed around a lot in trade rumours, and he has very good value. 

Going back to 2005, the Cardinals had two, count 'em, two sandwich picks. They used the first one, at 43, to take Mark McCormick, the fireballer out of Baylor that hasn't been able to stay healthy (or throw many strikes), as a pro. At 46, they took Tyler Herron, a RHP out of high school in Florida. Herron has moved slowly in pro ball, ending this season in High A after gettting knocked around in his first taste of Double A, but he still has a good amount of promise. He's not going to wow you with his stuff, but his walk numbers have been consistently solid and he could end up in the middle of a big league rotation someday. McCormick probably needs to be tried in the bullpen. I don't have a whole lot of hope for him, but I do think the Cards will probably get some contribution from at least one of these two. 

Other notable 2005 sandwichers: 

  • Chaz Roe, RHP #31 (Rockies) 
  • Travis Buck, OF #36 (Athletics) 
  • Luke Hochevar, RHP #40 (Dodgers) 
  • Clay Buchholz, RHP #42 (Red Sox) 
  • Jed Lowrie, SS #45 (Red Sox)
  • Garrett Olson, LHP #48 (Orioles) 

The Red Sox certainly did alright for themselves in the '05 draft, didn't they? Lowrie will likely be their starting shortstop in 2009, and looks to be a solid regular, while Buchholz has already thrown one no hitter and has a sky-high ceiling, even after fighting injuries in 2008. 

Travis Buck is looking like a solid, valuable pickup for the A's. He's had injury issues (seems like pretty much every Oakland player does anymore, doesn't it?), but the guy can hit, and he plays a competent outfield. Hochevar, of course, didn't sign with the Dodgers, as he and Boras established a new paradigm with the whole indy-league-for-a-year-then-reenter-the-draft thing that a couple of other Boras clients have followed since. Still a pretty good talent in the supplemental round. Olson is another name that gets bandied about in trade talks; he's not what you would consider an impact player, but at league minimum, he could very well be pretty valuable. 

2004 is as far back as I went. That was the first year that Jeff Luhnow was a part of the Cards' drafting department, and I'm really interested mostly in what the Cards (and other teams), have done recently with these types of picks.

In '04, there were only eleven players taken in the supplemental round, but the compensation rules were different then, too. Anyhow, the Cardinals didn't have a sandwich pick that year, so not much to talk about there. The notable picks from '04: 

  • Gio Gonzalez, LHP #38 (White Sox)
  • Jay Rainville, RHP #39 (Twins)
  • Huston Street, RHP #40 (Athletics) 

The 2004 supplemental round was all about the Athletics, as they snagged Huston Street, who closed for them and then helped to acquire Matt Holliday from the Rockies. A lot of people are down on Street, but I'm still a fan of his. I think he's probably better as a setup man than a closer, but at the very least, he's been plenty valuable while he's been cheap. The A's also ended up with Gio Gonzalez (who has been traded fifteen or sixteen times already, I believe), and the young lefty has blossomed into one of the top prospects in all of baseball. he's got great stuff, especially for a lefty, and should step right in to the Oakland rotation in 2009. Rainville has been kind of all over the map for the Twins, but could still end up contributing something at the ML level. 

All in all, there's some very good talent that's been picked up in the supplemental round over the past several years. Of course, the percentages on these guys is still quite low, but that's true of the draft process pretty much as a whole. The point is, when (or if), any of these players manages to make even a minimal contribution at the major league level, it ends up saving the team a big hit on payroll in free agency. I know, we've all heard it before, but I think it bears repeating. 

I know the value of a sandwich pick has been approximated somewhere in the range of $3.5 million by Baseball Prospectus, and that seems about right to me. The question, of course, is whether or not that $3.5 mil payoff was worth the gamble that the Cardinals would have been laying down on Looper accepting arbitration and coming back next season.  I can't really answer that question definitively, to be perfectly honest, but my personal opinion? I think letting him walk without at least trying to get the picks was at least a minor misstep. 

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I've gone over it about 100 times in my head...

Why not offer Loop arbitration? What’s the worse that could happen?

This list of supp. draft picks clearly shows there is little to risk and much to gain. I sure as hell would have wanted to land Jed Lowrie or Joba Chamberlain! Makes me wonder who the Cards could be missing out on this year, if we were to have at least offered Looper arbitration and he declined….

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 3, 2008 2:33 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

except

mo et al are betting on the market dropping, ie, the economy continues down, bidding for free agents declines, and the players eventually sign for less than what they would get in arbitration. arb ends up setting salaries based on past metrics. if you think things may change substantially, then you decide on no (or very few) arbs. this also decreases the value of the suppl. pick. this may or may not be the way things go, but if most clubs think this way, then there is a certain amount of self-fulfilling prophecy in all of this. plus for looper, his asking price has to be reserved until february, if the process goes all the way, which has its own impact on what mo does before then. it will be interesting to find out whose crystal ball was the clearest.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 3, 2008 8:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wouldn't this line of thinking

decrease the number of suppl. picks and therefore increase those picks’ value (as well as the value of the picks that come in later rounds)?

I have a love/hate relationship with the Cardinals' middle relief corps.

by madding on Dec 3, 2008 11:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

very informative post RB

I don’t think anyone can really figure out why we didn’t offer Loop arbitration, unless they really were scared that he’d accept and they don’t want him on the team anymore. the only answer is that they are going after another starting pitcher that will be better than Looper imo

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 3, 2008 2:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Last year was Mo's "grace period

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 3, 2008 2:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Last year was Mo's "grace period" for me

It’s time for him to show his stuff now and thus far by not offering arb to Looper he isn’t starting on the right foot. I hope he is ready to work at the Winter meetings. Mo did a pretty good job last season with the Rolen/Glaus trade…but he needs to cement himself as a GM in baseball. I don’t think he has established himself yet with the other GMs. I really hope he has a good plan…but frankly right now I am having trouble figuring out what it really is.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 3, 2008 3:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

maybe this year will be even more like last off-season

and we’ll see people like Lohse not signed yet all the way into spring training.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 3, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's true

But I hope Mo isn’t counting on that. If he waits to fill our many holes until spring training then he deserves the brunt of the many critics that will be on him. Waiting for “leftovers” isn’t a good plan to me when there are so many holes on the team. I can see doing this for one of the positions but in my opinion he REALLY needs to get to work on getting us a good SS and a piece for the bullpen before spring training. I’m not saying he needs to get all top of the line stars to fill these needs but he needs to pick at least one or two of these holes and get some solid players to make us competitive next season.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 3, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

we haven’t hit winter meetings yet, and we’re not the only team waiting for agents/fa players to blink on demands. most teams are.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 3:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I realize that.

I was responding to his post on waiting for the right guy to be there for the taking come spring training.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 3, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fair enough.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn't talking about any other position

besides pitcher… I don’t think the cardinals will wait on every position like you made it sound

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 3, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I jumped the gun with your comment

my bad. At least we know we have a SS now :)

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 4, 2008 6:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

I didn’t mean to sound negative there if I did

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 4, 2008 5:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

his plan is clearly don’t get stuck in an arb process where you have to wait to find out the resulted cost while trying to negotiate with other teams/agents under a self imposed salary cap.

it’s not a bad idea, actually.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 3, 2008 3:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

3.5MM value of a supplemental pick

Is that 3.5MM value of a supplemental pick before the team has to pay a 1MM bonus to the player?

Meaning the return on investment averages 3.5MM minus the bonus salary?

www.salukihoops.com

by salukihoops on Dec 3, 2008 2:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Correct.

The team would be expected to have a surplus in equity value of 2.5M dollars.

Victor Wang has done a lot of work on this at THT (example) and while I’m not a huge fan of the inputs (WSAB is one of my least favorite stats) it’s interesting work and helps to show the dollar value of prospects.

by azruavatar on Dec 3, 2008 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

All I can figure

is they were concerned that the market for free agents is really cold. Let’s say Looper gets only a few offers, and they aren’t too good. Whereas his market value is based on this year’s market, his value in arbitration is based on contracts signed in previous markets. If the market is really is significantly down, he might get offered 2 years at $4 million a year. If I’m Looper, I might say “Well, I could go to an arbitrator, and I could argue I’m as good as say, Carlos Silva, who is making $12 million a year.” And maybe he’d be right. So he accepts arbitration, makes more money than anyone is offering him on this year’s market, and he goes free agent in next year’s market, which might be a lot better.

If you’re the Cardinals, who are planning on adding 20 to 25 million dollars in payroll, suddenly you could end up with Braden Looper taking half of that, whereas you could sign a similar player in today’s market for a lot less. In addition, until the arbitration hearing, you are stuck not knowing what you’ll owe Looper, which really ties your hands.

I’m not sure I agree with what they did. But Mo knows the curent market better than I do, and it may be possible if the market has dropped enough, you don’t want to risk an arbitration process based on contracts signed in previous markets.

by tarakas on Dec 3, 2008 2:55 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

there is absolutely

no way that he gets $12 million a year. I doubt that he would even get a 20% raise at most. That would put him at $6.1 million. That’s how arbitration works. They don’t take one outlier salary like Silva’s who everyone thinks is ridiculous and give that salary to other mediocre pitchers.

Surely we could unload that salary ($6.1 million )or worse case he is an affordable number 4 pitcher

by eglasier on Dec 3, 2008 3:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You can’t say that he’ll get a “20%” raise and call it that. His salary was a relievers salary. Obviously he’ll arb under starter metrics and comparables. 6m is at least 2m less than what he’d get in arb I’d contend.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, Is Silva an Outlier?

If I’m Looper’s agent, other average salaries I could pull out, in millions:

Washburn 9+
Batista 8+
Lohse 10+
Suppan 10+
Marquis 7+
Padilla 11+

I’m not running similarity scores or anything for a simply post, but these seem like decent comps. These are a list if mid-rotation innings eaters, who were all at that level before they signed their contracts. Let’s look at two, really quick.

Here are Looper’s numbers from last year—199 IP, 4.16 ERA, 1.31 WHIP.

Look at Suppan’s final year with the Cards—190 IP, 4.12 ERA, 1.45 WHIP. That earned him over 10 mill a year on the open market.

Look at Kyle Lohse, last year—200 IP, 3.78 ERA, 1.30 WHIP—that earned him a contract with the Cards for over $10 million a year.

I’d think Looper’s odds of getting more than $6.5 million in arbitration are very good.

by tarakas on Dec 3, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry for the two typos

had to get back to work.

by tarakas on Dec 3, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Goold said it best in his post today. To paraphrase – the Cardinals would rather get a FA starter with a price dicated by the FA market than Braden Looper at a price dictated by an arbitrator, who will be making his decision based on comparable guys signed to previous deals in different FA markets during a more robust economy.

The implication, of course, is that the relative abundance of #3-4 type guys such as Looper, combined with the economic situation, will net the team a guy, maybe even Looper himself, for much much less than Looper would get in arby, which as you point out might be near or north of $10M.

I think the assumption most people have made is that Looper’s arby salary would be a modest uptick from what he made last year. I have to imagine the Cardinals’ assumption of his salary was more along the lines of what you laid out. For me, this lends a bit more clarity to their decision.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Dec 3, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed. The other assumption (well, not assumption) is that his value is worth around what he’d get in arb (assume 8-9m). Which very well may be true, But Loop will be in the middle of the second tier of pitchers in demand. Little to no upside, but durability.

He may be worth it, but the case could be made this early that we could get him (or someone of comparable stats) either cheaper, less years in commitment, or both by time the market shakes out.

A sup pick looks great from the mile high point of view, but when you get closer it starts to look like you will most likely not get that anyways, and pay arb value (read: not market value) for his production.

Both sides of the equation have reasonable arguments, but I can’t fault the F.O. for theirs this time.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That would be a good case for Looper

but you also have to look at the case for the Cardinals, seeing as it’s the teams who usually win arbitration hearings.

Here’s a list of players, their 2008 salaries, ERA+ values, and current age, including Looper.
           
——————Salary— ERA+— Age
Looper——— $5.5—- 102—- 34
Lohse———- $4.25—- 113 —-30
Wainwright —-$0.7—- 133—- 27
Lilly ————-$8——- 109—- 32
Bush——— —-$2.6—- 103—- 29
Perez——— —$6.5—- 100—- 27
Wakefield——— $4—- 112—- 42

The comparison in salary for Looper and Lohse with his new contract (or even the old one) isn’t a good one since not only is Lohse 4 years younger, but Lohse was better. Also, Lohse will be getting $7.1M in 09 which is the number they would cite, not $10M. I think that the highest Looper would have gotten in arbitration is around $7M. There’s no way he would have pulled down $10M because there are guys who are younger and better than him signed to contracts that pay them less than that.

Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"

by thegodfather on Dec 3, 2008 5:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My best guess

Is that Looper had till Feb 09 to decide to accept Arbitration or not. I think Moz couldn’t take the risk of that heading into this off season. What if he made a couple moves than Looper at the last second took the arbitration. We would be loaded with a contract possibly that we could not afford to pay and his spot in the starting rotation already filled. The risk of him accepting regardless of the possibility of it actually happening was enough to not offer him arbitration. Without knowledge of Carpenter’s future health coupled with a slowing economy it could not be risked.

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 3, 2008 5:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good idea, but I still think we should have offered

Is the deadline Feb 09? I really don’t know, that just seems kind of late to me.

Say we did fill out the payroll and signed another starter that would have taken Looper’s spot and then Looper accepted arbitration in February. This means that we would be, at the most, $7M over budget. I really don’t think it would have been hard to then dump Looper for salary relief before the season started. We’d probably land a mid level prospect in that deal as well.

We NEED another starter and Looper would have been a good deal for an innings type guy. I don’t see how any other contract, barring a miracle like Lohse last season, beats what Looper would have gotten via arbitration.

Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"

by thegodfather on Dec 3, 2008 6:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It really is Feb of 09

I think they can’t risk being $7M over budget. I think Moz is going to wait for the right deal before making a move. I think he is hoping for another Lohse miracle deal. Their should be more bargains this year than last.

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 3, 2008 6:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That isn't smart

If that’s what he is hoping for, that’s really not good. I don’t care how bad the economy is, every team is still going to have to fill out its roster, so there will still be competition for the good players. Meaning that they will still be expensive. Simple supply and demand. If we go into ST with a rotation of Wainwright, Welleymeyer, Lohse, Pin-head, and Boggs/filler, I’m not going to be a happy camper. Welleymeyer and Lohse aren’t about to both have seasons like last year, and the odds of all of those guys staying healthy is pretty low. I need to write Santa a wish list… ;)

Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"

by thegodfather on Dec 3, 2008 6:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow

I knew there was something we were missing

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 3, 2008 6:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Arbitration Acceptance Deadline

11 PM CST, Sunday, December 7, 2008

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Dec 3, 2008 6:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 3, 2008 9:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

February would be when we'd expect a decision from the arbitrator.

So, yes, we would know within a week if Loop accepted arbitration, but wouldn’t know how much we were on the hook for, until, potentially, January or February.

Now, we would likely settle on a contract outside arbitration, but there’s no way to know for sure.

by tom s. on Dec 4, 2008 5:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not all of these are remotely valid comparisons

Wakefield is 42, and his contract situation is odd. Years ago, he got rid of his agent and made a deal that let basically gave Boston a perpetual team option at $4 million a year. He said he never wanted to negotiate his salary again. That is not a great contract to bring up….

Wainwright has never had an option to go free agent and is completely irrelevant. The same is true with Bush. If Perez is Oliver Perez, it is true for him as well. You can’t use the salaries of players who haven’t put in enough service time to go free agent.

Lohse got his 2008 salary for performance much worse than Looper’s 2008 (his two previous season ERAs were 5.83 and 4.62). His 2008 performance, which is very close to Looper’s, netted him a lot more money.

I’m not saying Looper would get $10 million. I was simply saying he’d get more money than the Cardinals want to pay him in this market, and I think $7 million is too much, especially when you may only have $20 million to spend.

Plus, you can’t guarantee he’d get only $7 million. It would not be impossible for an arbitrator to decide Suppan is a great comp and give him $10 million. The problem is you can’t know what he would get….

by tarakas on Dec 3, 2008 8:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

don't forget

in arb, the arbiter picks the team offer or player request, nothing else. intermediate salaries represent agreements between player and team prior to the arb hearing.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 3, 2008 8:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Anybody else getting a little concerned.....

With the lack of names being mentioned this offseason for the Cardinals? Seriously, what attractive ball players are we being mentioned with these days?

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Dec 3, 2008 2:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

too early to say

should heat up soon though

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 3, 2008 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They simply aren't interested

in attractive players. They want to spread $20 million out amongst 2 lefthanded relievers and 2 middle infielders, and maybe a starter. Most of these players are going to get $4 million a year, or less. That gets you into the “mediocre veteran” range. Frequently, attractive players come at a much higher price tag.

by tarakas on Dec 3, 2008 3:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

or maybe, just maybe

no one else has really done anything either, and this is going to be a slow moving market. just a thought.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe.....

But we already know we aren’t going after Furcal, Cabrera, or Greene for SS, and with the recent ATL trade, Escobar probably isn’t attainable either.

The LOOGY market is dwindling, and it looks like we aren’t in on Ohman.

I feel like we’re just going to plug similiar pieces into the same holes we had last year. Great.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Dec 3, 2008 3:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I tend to agree with you SoonerfanTU

but I am going to wait and see what the Winter meetings bring before I start to get too bent out of shape. I have a feeling we are going to see some trades soon. Either Ludwick or Ankiel will be on a different team in 2009 is the feeling I am getting.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 3, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

first, we have no clue who we’re out of the running on. and with the demands of Furcal, we damn well better be out of that mess.

i wouldn’t say the loogy market is dwindling just yet.

rule 5 draft, wintermeetings and 90% of free agents are still out there.

long time yet.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

did Mo rule out greene?

I seem to remember Goold saying he was “an intriguing option”, or something like that, fairly recently.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 3, 2008 3:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i hope not

though it depends on what the ransom is for him. I don’t mind paying for upside, but I refuse to get screwed while chasing it.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 3:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

do any of the stat predictions for next year

show Looper regressing a lot?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 3, 2008 3:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

sometimes it's best to get out while you can

and not push your luck… Looper always seemed to be pitching over his head to me.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 3, 2008 3:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Marcel and Bill James both have a drop off

Fangraphs has the data available. I’d trust Marcel moreso than James. That said, they’re still pointing to a pitcher worth about what he’d make in arb. Marcel may be hitting the innings a little low given Looper was relieving in ’06.

Marcel:
166 IP * 4.60 ERA = 82 Runs
Replacement Level (starter + reliever)
160 * 5.50 = 97
6 * 5.00 = 3

WAR = (97 + 3) – 82 = 18 runs
18 runs = 89M dollars in single year salary

by azruavatar on Dec 3, 2008 3:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Correction to 89M yearly coming in 3....2.....1

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 3, 2008 3:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Damnit SBN

Why do you hate the tilda!!!!!!!! The tilda is your friend. That’s it; I’m sending a f—king e-mail about these stupid auto characters.

by azruavatar on Dec 3, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That should read 8M ~ 9M

by azruavatar on Dec 3, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'll sign that petition

If we could just have an option in our profie to turn off the auto-format things, I’d be much happier.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 3, 2008 4:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I sent a very nice note.

But I really do hate that auto format stuff. If people want to be faster, learn html and stop using jenky gimmicks. I want my tilda back.

by azruavatar on Dec 3, 2008 5:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

actually

James predicts a slight improvement – not drop off.

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Dec 3, 2008 4:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll say it again

I’m convinced James’ projections have the league allowing fewer runs than it scores. It’s optimistic on everyone.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 3, 2008 5:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good catch.

I never look at those projections to be honest. They seem random and totally unexplainable far too often.

by azruavatar on Dec 3, 2008 5:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll say it again

This just has to be a sign that they’re planning something much bigger for a SP. It doesn’t make any sense otherwise.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 3, 2008 3:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Or maybe cheaper

I’m more inclined to think that they are planning to go 2 for the price of 1 with pitching. Throw it all against the wall and see what sticks. Mo talks about middle infield being the top need along with lefty relief, and then classifies closer and starters as like to fill areas. Not a direct quote but at least a loose translation of what I heard last night.

This has been their approach to starting pitching for quite a while. I don’t see why it won’t be the same this year, especially since you’d have to project a few more arms to be found in the flea market this year. I’m pretty sure that’s the direction this is going. Maybe they’ll trade an outfielder for an arm though, who knows.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 3, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

our long national nightmare is over

cardinals finally sign trever miller

Amaury translates into "Punisher of Spheroids" in the lost tongue of Atlantis. Marti means "Belgian Waffle." www.futureredbirds.net

by erik on Dec 3, 2008 3:47 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

YESSSS

My excitement level is in between Taguchi off of Wagner, and Molina off of Heilman. Clearly behind Pujols off of Lidge though.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 3, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

COME ON!!!!

Molina off of Heilman HAS GOT to be at least slightly ahead of Pujols off of Lidge, right? right?

Molina’s shot came in a tied GAME 7 that GOT US TO THE WORLD SERIES!!!!!!!!!!!!

anyone else?

www.salukihoops.com

by salukihoops on Dec 3, 2008 6:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It would be

Except for the fact that I had to wait to know Molina’s shot was out, I got to anticipate the excitement for like 4 seconds. Pujols started his swing and and that ball was gone.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 3, 2008 6:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if only we had been behind

when molina hit that HR..

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 3, 2008 6:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ohmagod!

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 3, 2008 3:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

1 year deal?

i can’t complain. gives us time to build (and heal – T.J, Garcia) internally, removes negotiation leverage, and should come in cheap enough to allow us the flex we’ll need going forward.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 4:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

did they get a deal on him?

the most recent news i read pointed at the earlier physical showing miller w/ arm issues. if that’s the case then why not move on to a healthy LOOGY like Beimel or Rhodes. at the very least. i’d hope it’s an incentive-based contract.
on second thought, who cares. there’s no way Trever Miller is a pivotal factor the cards success next season. right?

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Dec 3, 2008 4:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm guessing the hangup was

that he wanted more than 1 year

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 3, 2008 4:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, they originally were going to do 2 years. had a physical and was concerns over a part of his shoulder that was repaired in 2000 iirc. so it was knocked down to a one year deal.

i like it, i’d rather spend on health risks in this area than on the Clement variety. At least here we can see how Tyler can come back, how the two other lefties we picked up earlier in the year perform, and see if there’s any farm lefties that have break out years.

Personally, I like having a LOOGY or two, I’m fond of the concept. But I don’t see 4-6 million in value if they’re strictly a specialist vs LHB without closer attributes. Miller may be middle ground on what is avail, but his value vs risk with the Cards in context – it’s worth it in my opinion.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

PD says

2 million for one year.

Works for me.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Dec 3, 2008 5:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that's max value if miller hits on his incentives

i’m curious as to how these incentives read. you think he get’s a big bonus for being an all-star or winning a cy young?

maybe something like this…
1.4 million – base contract
50k for arriving at spring training on time
50k for passing a drug test
100k for making the opening day roster
100k for ending the season on the roster
300k for having a lower era than ron villone

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Dec 3, 2008 5:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

“300k for having a lower era than ron villone” – sign me up!

most likely it’ll be IP or Appearances.

But you can’t go wrong with an incentive that maxes out at 2m in an area of need

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Contract Clause

I have to think some of his contract needs to be siphoned off to the scoreboard operator monkeys at Busch, who now need to come up with something other than the groan-inducingly predictable “It’s Miller Time” display when he trots in to face Fielder or Berkman or whowever.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Dec 3, 2008 5:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that would never happen at Busch.

I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Dec 3, 2008 5:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Busch Beer

Budweiser.

Chief American (used to be American) rival would be The Miller Brewing Company.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 3, 2008 8:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And now

they’re global rivals.

by spants on Dec 4, 2008 12:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

was there an arb question about the delay?

now that he signed, that’s the only thing I can come up with.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 3, 2008 4:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"arbitration" that is

not arb….. tooo laazzzy to spell.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 3, 2008 4:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the roto thing on the side bar

says the Cards had concerns on his shoulder

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 3, 2008 4:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Can the Cards sign a "healthy" pitcher?

or do they have a great plan with the medical center to rehab all of these arms, wrists and shoulders?

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 3, 2008 4:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He has a "slight" tear in his labrum.

Here we go again!

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Dec 3, 2008 5:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it's only "mostly" torn

that’s very different than “all” torn…

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 3, 2008 6:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Most pitchers who've been around for awhile have arm damage you don't want to see on an MRI

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 3, 2008 7:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

when it's all torn, there's only one thing you can do (well, if you're billy beane),

which is ship him to other teams for prospects.

The chocolate coating makes a torn labrum go down easier.

by tom s. on Dec 4, 2008 6:00 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's great that we signed an injured pitcher.

I mean what would we complain about all year if and when the guys shoulder blows up if we hadn’t signed him after the physical showed a torn labrum which is not good for pitchers.

*Rasmus is to CF as Longoria is to 3B*

by Red Blazer on Dec 3, 2008 5:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

wonderful...

You know where the team is heading when they add 4 handicapped parking spaces to the players parking area. (j/k)

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 3, 2008 5:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

1.) It was our doctors who discovered a potential tear in the labrum. One could easily make the argument that they may have been looking at his knee, considering the competence of our doctors the past few years.

2.) It allowed us to negotiate from a position of strength. If the shoulder holds up, it’ll be a great signing.

4.) Miller actually pitched better in August, Sept and Oct. than he did the rest of the year. So while one can’t know for sure when it happened (the tear), at least into the latter part of the season there was no ill effects. He has been quoted to not having pain and continual workouts without issue. While he could be bs’ing its effects, nothing showed up on the field.

5.) He does have experience in this domain due to having issues here before, hopefully that will help how he manages his body and being on a one year deal that’s incentive laden, he’s clearly on a year to year position for continuing to play ball at the ML level.

yeah, it has a risk factor, but personally, i’ll take it.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 5:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

also, if Miller removes Flores from the ‘09 equation, i’d take miller at 80% anyday. if it comes to that.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 5:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

was this one 3.)?

or did cyberspace claim it for all enternity?.

You make good points and I’m not against the signing…… just wondered if a pitcher can be signed by the Cards without all the health issues.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 3, 2008 6:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oops

combined 2 & 3 into one so I didn’t sound redundant so 3 is gone for good.

Well, unless I don’t recall correctly, the other three pitchers we’ve picked up/signed this year (Lohse, and the two lefties) all are injury history free. Unless you consider mediocre’ism an injury.

I didn’t mean to imply you were against it, just noting this is a low risk moderate upside signing for an issue of need.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 6:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i heard that he tore it when he shook hands with paletta.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Dec 4, 2008 1:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Great Depression circa 2009

I think its quite simple. Many of us will lose our jobs in the coming 6 months. Anyone lucky enough to hold on will be looking over their shoulder at some hungry unemployed worker willing to work for half as much as you. Baseball is a bit of a fantasy especially in hard times, but none of the luxury boxes will sell. TV revenue will drop. Everyone needs to tighten their belts.

The Cards, and every other team in the league can now read the tea leaves. They are kicking themselves over Lohse. We’ll all look back on that and wonder, what were they smoking…?

Cards will hunker down, work on promoting prospects and hope that the market gets so bad that they can extend Pujols for a lot less than currently planned.

by The Duke on Dec 3, 2008 5:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

can i call you when I'm down

wait..nm

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 3, 2008 6:33 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

and the downside is?

if I have to live at the beach in the summer, I can do it. Just let me have a radio to listen to the Cards, a beer every now and then, and a nice view. That will be just fine with me.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 3, 2008 9:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great Depression is pushing it

The government isn’t letting businesses crash (whether or not that’s smart, you can decide), so there’s no reason to predict a ‘30s style depression. There’s no reason to be that worried yet. If everyone starts saying that, there will be a depression. There would be a run on the banks, even more layoffs, etc, and then we would all be screwed.

They will likely cut back on spending, but I think the whole economy issue as it relates to baseball spending is a tad overblown. It’s not like Busch is going to be half empty come April.

Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"

by thegodfather on Dec 3, 2008 6:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

Recession yes, Depression no. I think the gov’t taking these (cough) precautions (cough) by bailing out these business giants is an indicator that we are not going to see another economic crisis like that of the 1930’s. The only thing that could cause a depression is people saying we are headed for a depression and panicking.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 3, 2008 6:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

" The only thing that could cause a depression is people saying we are headed for a depression and panicking."

While not getting into a large off topic debate, one could make the case that some of the bailouts have been because of that line right there. There has been in some cases a bit of overreation in the market. Not all of it has a foundational basis.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 7:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely

While most people agree that bailouts are bad, there are enough people that would overreact at companies going bankrupt and then restructuring. It’s this panic that would hurt the economy. Everyone would take their money out of the banks and then quit spending it. That would cause a depression. The question is will the huge deficit and bailouts hurt less than the panic that would accompany bankruptcies.

If I weren’t an economics major I wouldn’t have hijacked this thread. I apologize.

Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"

by thegodfather on Dec 3, 2008 7:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

it’s one thing to have a cycle that is on a downturn due to real factors, but when speculation (through panic) drives down the cycle well beyond where it should be, that’s the cause for concern.

All in all the gov (not all cases, but most) is just breaking the perception and carrying the heat for it. If it works, and with a new administration coming in, it has momentum to work, then the market should correct and that panic cycle should turn around alright.

After the dot com bubble earnings (future and current) renewed as “important” (vs speculation), now leverage and investment diversification will be renewed as “important”, It’s not a bad thing at all.

As far as the deficit goes, I’m all for it as long as it has long term goals. While I don’t feel like building a “bridge to nowhere”, I’d rather go in the hole now and put in a foundation so we’re stronger long term than tighten up and balance out.

If America were a cabinet company still using table saws and struggling to turn a profit, I’d rather it take a moment and upfront cost to update to cnc system to get back to a long term approach (struggled for a clear small example, sigh).

comp sci major here (casino software), but did ok shorting the overleveraged companies and hope they get the clue going forward. debating going back for econ.

nice convo

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 7:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also agreed

I’m just worried the spending will resemble the 30s, which didn’t work, and the deficit spending never ended. People tend to think FDR and the New Deal ended the depression, while in actuality it was the war. Long term goals are crucial. Capitalism will solve all problems when done properly, but companies like GM forgot how to do it. Hopefully the Democrats and few remaining Republicans can learn from past mistakes. Obviously a long shot but there’s always hope.

To tie this to baseball since we’re breaking the rules, I wonder what effect a depression would have on baseball. Would ticket prices fall, along with attendance and revenue? I’m sure they’d drop some but personally I think that people would still want to go to games. It would be a way to kind of get back to normalcy in hard times. Just guessing here.

Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"

by thegodfather on Dec 3, 2008 8:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well FDR did kinda hurt himself by pulling back just as the new deal was churning and tried to balance budget. Ironically during a panic moment of his own. His “earlyism” really hurt the total impact it could have had and the war saved it.

These smaller nature (in comparison and impact to back then) wars won’t change what were in now. What the war did back then was give us as a country a focused event and direction (read: long term goal as you typed). Winning. Also adding we could barely afford it as it was.

The idea now is the long term goal should be infrastructure, healthcare and education. Reinvention if you will. It’s not a bad idea if you can get everyone down the chain focused on it. If that happens is debatable, but the long term possibilities is enormous and frankly would create a foundation to clean up the deficit and the like.

While not directly educated in the field, I’m believe Capitalism can solve all problems as long as the suppliers have a social conscience invested and the demand side appreciates the value.

(While a bad example given current context) – “I’ll give you a car that will cut pollutants and save you 2k a year in fuel cost, but you have to appreciate with financial means that it’ll cost you 4k more to buy”.

I’m also not a fan of the too large effect that we’ve been seeing as of late. It’s not that hard to undercut and build an industry in area that isn’t established (read Google vs Yahoo/Lycos), but when GM, AIG, and the like are just so big that their loss would destroy the market (markets, actually) they’re apart of is absurd.

GM’s problems are plenty, span several industries and markets, and have catered to share price so long that they’ve rotted from the inside out.

I wish investors would ask more why’s than hows. Meaning, ok you made 500m this year, why? Suppliers paid a fair rate? Employees paid upper tier of comparables? No loss in quality? Warranty claims? Can it be sold cheaper for growth?

Then, only then can the stewards of the company take a cut in a bonus.

Long story short, Capitalism is a great concept, if all of the players have a social approach built into the value.

In my opinion of course.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 9:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Communism

is also a great concept. Practice is another thing entirely.

by spants on Dec 4, 2008 12:20 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

(posted this seperate so it’s easier to follow)

To baseball :

I don’t know if ticket prices themselves would fall, but I would hazard to guess that there will be more package deals. Packages as in days covered and packages as in seats per game. The tickets would be less likely to inflate.

Teams as a whole (some won’t need to due to market) would be more inclined to want to fill the seats than maximize the price of each seat. They’ll probably try more approaches to engage with the fans and the like.

Off the top of my head I’m not sure how the revenue system and concessions play out but more seats filled rather than max profit for seats could keep everything churning. Ironically in length of game/cost, baseball has reasonable value if you’re engaged into the game itself. Quite a few complain about 8 buck beer and food prices, but hell – the last thing I’d want to go to is a game where it’s a stadium of dip shits loaded on 2 buck beer.

People will still go to games, they might even more than before if ticket sales were promoted. (I’d say a lot are under assumptions all tickets are expensive, which isn’t the case).

Sports, Movies and the like do well when the economy generally sucks, it’s a constant value.

I would worry about the Minor league teams in general however.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 10:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

See it here with hockey

Blues are doing a lot of the things you mention. There are other reasons they are in this position besides the economy though for sure. NHL lost me for a while after the work stoppage, for example, although they got me back now.

Anyway, Blues are putting out a ton of specials now. Had half off during the holiday weekend. Have some corner seats darn near the ice for $25. Upper level center ice seats for $11.

I don’t know for sure what will happen in baseball, but it looks like it may be somewhat similar. In years past, you paid full price for Pujols packs that had a Cub game in it and got 7 for 5 for those that did not. This year you are getting 7 for 5 in packs with the Cubs and 10 for 5 in packages without. That’s a significant change. Again there are surely other reasons behind this, such as the novelty of the stadium wearing off, a couple mediocre years, and others. Still, I think the lost savings and fear of unemployment play a role in that change too.

They’re undercutting the season ticket holders I suppose, but they are getting more people in and extracting a little more revenue.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 3, 2008 10:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Season ticket holders and luxury box owners should be considered base revenue (akin to base load power for electricity).

They get an 81 game perk, they can unload their tickets, they have defined and guaranteed seats, but they shouldn’t be treated as a cost efficient approach.

Blues if I’ve recall correctly have a lot of engagement programs as well. A very good thing.

I wish that we had a program where we gave 3-4 games a year for our roster players to play for some of our minor league affiliates. Most wouldn’t like it, for all kinds of reasons. But it would help shore up and bring more people to the minor league teams and expose the farm talent to some of the ML stars (most of which would never get to play with them anyways).

My G-Pa bought me season tickets for a couple of years after graduating college. Now I travel for work, but see about 60 games a year, minor league and major league, our team and others and while clearly it wouldn’t work for most people, I’d highly recommend it over going to StL 81 games a year (and surprisingly, it’s cheaper ticket wise)

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 11:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Lag effect

Certainly there will be a lag effect. Boxes tend to be longer term corporate commitments. However, these will get cut and these generate a lot of revenue.

Big question is ad revenues and impact on clubs selling their broadcast rights. I expect this will drop steeply for at least two years.

I think most of the clubs are planning for 10-20% decline in revenue.

by The Duke on Dec 3, 2008 6:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Do you know this for a fact,

or are you just guessing 10-20%?

Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"

by thegodfather on Dec 3, 2008 7:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well I doubt that much then.

If the Cards’ payroll dropped 20% they wouldn’t be able to sign anyone else.

Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"

by thegodfather on Dec 3, 2008 7:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Revenue

and payroll aren’t mutually exclusive.

by spants on Dec 3, 2008 8:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oops

It says revenue but I read payroll. My bad. I need to sleep more…

Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"

by thegodfather on Dec 3, 2008 8:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For reference

NHL attendance is up 1.2% with a far more expensive average ticket price than MLB.
NFL is still averaging 99% capacity with a far more expensive ticket.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 3, 2008 9:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The government didn't let businesses crash then

Hoover tried to bail them out and stave off the Depression and many argue that his moves only deepened it.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 3, 2008 8:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not saying we should bail them out,

In fact I’m a proponent of the “reset button,” but they DID crash back then and so far they haven’t now. I believe Roosevelt was the one that started deficit spending. It was more sudden back then then it is now.

Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"

by thegodfather on Dec 3, 2008 8:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not that sudden

The market crashed, rebounded and crashed again.

I’m not arguing that this is a depression or will be but sometimes we think of it as just happening one day and destroying the economy for an entire decade.

It was a long, drawn out process.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 3, 2008 9:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

From everything I’ve read, it wasn’t that his moves deepened it, it was that his moves were too little, too late and superficial in nature.

Recessions can also have the same look (up and downs) as well, can be broad or contained, can be a long drawn out process or contained in months. Gov action within recessions can be shown to do some good as well.

How I’ve personally looked at the market, recessions and depressions is a lot like wildfires. All of this may not transpire over exact and an econ grad could kick my ass, but it works for me.

Recessions start naturally or ignorance/idiocy just like wild fires (lightning, campfires, arsonists). Typically both start off slow, are contained/containable but aren’t noticed/acted upon to a large extent until they start becoming threatening.

Both are normal within normal circumstances. Meaning that recessions do happen, so will wildfires. They’ll both evolve and consume based on the environment they are in, and they’ll both only last as long as the environment allows them to. A wildfire can be viewed as a natural correction as a recession is usually a market correction.

if you put effort into stopping a wild fire, it can be contained, just like a recession. It may take a while considering the environmental variables, but it’s containable. The approach to the containment determines the effectiveness.

They both will grow and shrink day to day depending on the environment around them, both can be limited or prevented in a proactive fashion (appropriate regulation for the market, burn back/clearing and fire breaks for fires).

A depression is akin to running away and cleaning it up later, or fighting it with garden hoses. Where you get into panic cycles and wrong types of regulation.

This fire has already been a long one it’s a process of 16 months at least (oil prices vs mortgage bubble). L’Brothers is what made everyone notice. So far at least it seems that we’re not fighting it with garden hoses and since we’re in a political transition, there’s no chance of anyone running from it. So a depression seems highly unlikely.

The shitty part about it is that when they’re both done it they’re similar as well, both take time to reassure they’re finished, a pain to clean up from, take a while to note what exactly happened, and then define and implement directives and approaches to soften or prevent it from happening again.

A lot of people (inc myself) hate the bailouts with a passion. But most econ guys I’ve read, watched or talked to pretty much point to the same alt view point. If we ignored it or went at it from a “garden hose” point of view – there would have been no way to contain it by now.

Personally, I’ll go with them on this one.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 10:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

damn that was long

sorry.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 10:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"if you put effort into stopping a wild fire, it can be contained, just like a recession. "

Not if your “effort” consists of throwing gasoline on it. Or in economic terms, “raising taxes”, which Hoover did (and Obama promises to do, lol).

Sorry, I just hate bad analogies.

god, i love baseball. -roy hobbs

by SleepyCA on Dec 3, 2008 11:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

considering that he’s looking more and more like he’ll just let the tax cuts expire in ‘11 when we should be in recovery mode, and has pulled the windfall tax from the agenda, i’d hesitate to say he’s going to be pouring “gasoline” over this one. but i digress

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 4, 2008 12:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Raising the capital gains tax for anyone like he's said he's going to do is just incomprehensibly stupid

It discourages investment, AND YOU GET LESS TAX REVENUE. Jacking it up is literally just punishing people for making money with a loss in revenue. I know he’s since retracted it, but his comments on the subject during one of those debates are just plain scary. I imagine someone thinking of studying economics, then doing the exact opposite of that and coming up with that answer.

[/politics] (sorry)

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 4, 2008 12:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We can't keep talking

politics and just apologize for it at the end. If you want to discuss baseball economics, fine. Or discuss things in broad, general terms, fine. But discussing specific policy just seems a) completely off-topic, and b) against the rules of the site.

by spants on Dec 4, 2008 1:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't mind it

especially at this time of year… but you’re right

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 4, 2008 1:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm very political.

And I behave myself on this site. It would be very easy for me to inject politics into almost any discussion, but I don’t. This site is about baseball. I need this clear line, otherwise all bets are off.

It’s very difficult to read things and not say my piece, but I restrain myself because it’s the way things are done around here. It would be nice if others started restraining themselves, too.

by spants on Dec 4, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

recession* not depression, a very large distinction. The world isn’t going to end, luxury boxes will continue to sell, baseball’s tv revenue hasn’t been a model of success in recent years anyways, even in good times.

attendance has historically done quite well during recessions over the years. if it doesn’t this year, it’ll be the exception, not the norm.

Lohse isn’t an issue this year as he would have to be horrid compared to years past to be below his market rate, the last two years are the concern, not the first two.

The only reason the economy is getting the attention is that it gives all gm/owners leverage across the board to help try and drive down prices against what one could call a banner year in the free agent market.

Cards should hunker down. The Cubs model is not one to follow, and frankly, if you think the economy is going to determine Pujols next contract/extension, you’re quite off base. He could be one of the few players in baseball where the market can’t catch up to his worth in performance.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 3, 2008 6:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Compensation Pick All-Stars

I have been putting together a database of draft picks so I thought I would go through and list my version of the best active players who were some form of compensation draft pick whether it be first round, sandwich pick, or second round.

Infielders:

David Wright (Comp)
Kelly Johnson (Comp)
Connor Jackson (1)
Jed Lawrie (Comp)
Jack Cust (Comp)

Outfielders:

Johnny Damon (Comp)
Torii Hunter (1)
Aaron Rowand (Comp)
Nick Swisher (1)
Jacoby Ellsbury (1)

Catcher:

Jarrod Saltalamacchia (Comp)

Starting Pitchers:

Chris Carpenter (1)
Adam Wainwright (1)
Joe Blanton (1)
Jo Jo Reyes (2)
Clay Buchholz (Comp)

Bullpen:

Brad Lidge (1)
Huston Street (Comp)
Joba Chamberlain (Comp)
Chris Perez (Comp)
Todd Jones (Comp)
J.P. Howell (2)
David Aardsma (1)

Honorable Mention:

Shannon Stewart (1)
Trever Miller (Comp)
Adam Jones (Comp)
Aaron Heilman (1)
Phillip Hughes (1)

There is only one LHRP. I left at a 24-man roster since there was only one catcher.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 3, 2008 5:47 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Off topic question here

Does anyone sell tickets on Stubhub, or EBAY? Pujols packs come become available soon and I am thinking of buying the 10 for the price of 5 package. But I was also wondering what the market historically has been for Cubs games? I thought about buying one of those packages as well and selling off the Cubs games to offset some of the cost.

I’m thinking about getting outfield field boxes, probably around sec 130. Could those typically command over face for Cubs games? And if so, around how much? I know the economy changes this equation. Just trying to get a ballpark range for Cubs games in particular, along with others too.

I can see what prices people have posted on those sites, but I know that just because they are listed doesn’t mean they sell.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 3, 2008 6:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I am going to start selling tickets this year

But that’s where I have usually bought tickets. The prices on there now will change as it gets closer to the season because the ones on there now likely belong to people who need the money ASAP (mere speculation). I know that I’ve paid around $175 a seat in the past a couple weeks in advance for seats that are listed for about $140 now.

I’m sure you can get over face value for section 130. I know I looked at buying tickets to a game in section 129 once and they were listed at $100 apiece. Granted, I didn’t buy them, but I would guess you could get AT LEAST $75 a ticket for those seats. No guarantees, but that’s my idea. Hopefully I’m right or I’m going to be screwed on the tickets I bought.

Two goldfish are in a tank. One of them turns to the other and says, "You man the guns, I'll drive!"

by thegodfather on Dec 3, 2008 6:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

somehow I knew in the back of my mind we'd get Greene

in case anyone was wondering

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 4, 2008 2:06 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

my only concern is, is he scrappy enough?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 4, 2008 2:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

is he too tall?

honestly, if you don’t have to look up at your wife/GF, can you play in the middle infield in StL?

by tom s. on Dec 4, 2008 6:05 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For what it's worth

Greene is a career .266/.317/.476 hitter outside of Petco. Basically Izturis’ 2008 with .170 points of SLG. That’s a significant upgrade at the plate. Now Izturis was 19 by +/- and Greene appears to have been ~10 2006-2007—-so we’re talking at least -5 runs in the field, but potentially +20 runs batting. Of course Greene was absolutely awful last year so who knows, but now that I can look at things rationally it might be quite a deal depending on who we’re dealing.

Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist

by joker24 on Dec 4, 2008 2:51 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

If you throw out last year

I believe he slugged .500 the three years prior away from Petco

Khalilbot

by JI on Dec 4, 2008 3:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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