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Starter Kit

And down go two of the big second tier starter names—Brad Penny to the Red SoxRandy Johnson to the Giants.

The Giants' off-season has been pretty interesting, given how epochally terrible they were supposed to be last year. They're the kind of team I love to play as in Baseball Mogul: they're bad, but they had such big, sucking holes at defined positions that acquiring second tier players can improve them tremendously. Replace Omar Vizquel (43 OPS+) and Kevin Correia (72 ERA+) with Edgar Renteria and Randy Johnson, even on the way down, sign somebody—even Josh Phelps—to play first, hope your top prospect sticks at third... you might luck into 85 wins. 

Of course, I don't know if it's a good plan, just an interesting one; if you'll remember their ZiPS projections from last month, their best hitter is forecast to be "Even" Josh Phelps, with an OPS barely over the league average. That's right: batting cleanup, a 31-year old minor league free agent. Getting your best hitter out of the minor league free agent value bin is impressive, in a way; it's almost a willful disregard for offensive competence. 

But I was sad to see them get the Unit, who was such a perfect fit that I experienced total cognitive dissonance every time Moz or some other Cardinal rep dismissed him out of hand. One year, $8-13 million is right in line with—even a little lower than—the deals handed him by Hot Stove GMs the country over. As for Penny, I was never all the way on that train; $5 million isn't a high price to pay, but it just makes it even more superficially similar to the Kip Wells deal, and I refuse to be fooled twice in a row by once-nifty non-aces with vague and serious arm complaints. 

Here's what's left of the starter market; apologies if I leave off your favorite. 

FIRST TIER

Derek Lowe

 

YEAR AGE GS IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 ERA FIP
2005 32 35 222.0 5.9 2.2 1.1 3.61 4.10
2006 33 34 218.0 5.1 2.3 0.6 3.63 3.72
2007 34 32 199.3 6.6 2.7 0.9 3.88 3.97
2008 35 34 211.0 6.3 1.9 0.6 3.24 3.23

 

The last of the big-money starters, Lowe entered the offseason with a reported five year, $90 million demand, which will end up competing with Manny Ramirez's avowed desire for nineteen guaranteed years for the most ridiculous contract idea to be floated entering the Winter Meetings. He'll probably get the years, but he'll be lucky to get half the money, and the Cardinals don't seem like a very good fit for a guy who wants to make $10+ million in his age-40 season. By then the sinker might not be sinking, and the innings might not be eaten, and meanwhile the Cardinals will be looking behind every couch cushion in the DeWitt estate looking for Albert Pujols money. Pass.

 

Ben Sheets

YEAR AGE GS IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 ERA FIP
2005 26 22 156.7 8.1 1.4 1.1 3.33 3.26
2006 27 17 106.0 9.8 0.9 0.8 3.82 2.47
2007 28 24 141.3 6.8 2.4 1.1 3.82 4.10
2008 29 31 198.3 7.2 2.1 0.8 3.09 3.42

I hesitate to ascribe anything to the Average Fan, because it just can't be done without sounding pretentious, but I think it's fair to say that the Average Fan does not realize that Ben Sheets is among the best control pitchers in Major League Baseball. For the four years in the table only five pitchers who've thrown at least 500 innings walked fewer batters per nine innings. One is Roy Halladay; the other four—Jon Lieber, Paul Byrd, Greg Maddux, Carlos Silva—could hit the bottle pyramid at a carnival booth square ninety-nine times out of a hundred but probably wouldn't scare the carnie doing it. 

What I'm trying to say is that Ben Sheets, even with the declining strikeout rate and increased walks of the last two years, is an extremely rare breed of pitcher. His K:BB ratio is second in this time span to Johan Santana, and for a brief moment in 2004 he was that kind of pitcher. 

He's had elbow problems and shoulder problems, but this is an ace pitcher, and those elbow and shoulder problems are the reason he's anywhere near the Cardinals' price range in the first place. This guy shouldn't still be here; hopefully Moz will take advantage of the fact that he is. 

 

SECOND TIER

 

OKAY, SECOND AND A HALF TIER

Andy Pettitte

YEAR AGE GS IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 ERA FIP
2005 33 33 222.3 7.5 1.8 0.8 2.39 3.03
2006 34 35 214.3 7.4 2.9 1.1 4.20 4.08
2007 35 34 215.3 5.9 2.9 0.7 4.05 4.00
2008 36 33 204.0 6.9 2.4 0.8 4.54 3.74

Like Sheets, Pettitte's value to the Cardinals is enhanced by his weird contract situation; it makes no sense at all that Derek Lowe will probably end up making $30 million over three years more than this guy, but Pettitte seems content to move from one year deal to one year deal at this point in his career, which is great for any prospective suitors. 

Once upon a time Pettitte has arm problems and was regarded as a fragile pitcher, but after four years in a row of 200-inning ball he seems about as sturdy as any pitcher in baseball. 

Oliver Perez

YEAR AGE GS IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 ERA FIP
2005 23 20 103.0 8.5 6.1 2.0 5.85 6.19
2006 24 22 112.7 8.2 5.4 1.6 6.55 5.51
2007 25 29 177.0 8.2 3.4 0.9 3.56 4.36
2008 26 34 194.0 8.4 4.9 1.1 4.22 4.69

I have a soft spot for Oli, who at this point is basically a disembodied slider. He strikes out a lot of people, he walks a lot of people... worst case scenario, he is Randy Wolf without the multiple surgeries; best case scenario, he is still unbelievably young for someone who struck out Ruben Sierra twice in his major league debut.

Of course, if the Cardinals signed him he would be throwing his indiscriminate four-seamers in front of Dave Duncan once a week, which adds the possibility of a new worst case scenario: mid-game deathmatch. 

The much-discussed Japanese pitchers, Uehara and Kawakami, probably also belong here. 

 

THIRD TIER

Randy Wolf

YEAR AGE GS IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 ERA FIP
2005 28 13 80.0 6.9 2.9 1.6 4.39 4.86
2006 29 12 56.7 7.0 5.2 2.1 5.56 6.39
2007 30 18 102.7 8.2 3.4 0.9 4.73 3.96
2008 31 33 190.3 7.7 3.4 1.0 4.30 4.05

Are you intrigued by Ben Sheets's injury history, but put off by his history of brilliant pitching? Randy Wolf will probably be cheap, but that's because he's an average fifth starter who isn't likely to pitch enough to keep the below-average fifth starters off the roster for the whole season. With Randy Wolf's help, your team's Mike Parisi might start five games instead of ten. 

Braden Looper

 

YEAR AGE GS IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 ERA FIP
2005 30 0 59.3 3.8 3.1 1.0 3.94 4.82
2006 31 0 73.3 5.2 2.5 0.4 3.56 3.33
2007 32 30 175.0 4.5 2.7 1.2 4.94 4.82
2008 33 33 199.0 5.0 2.1 1.2 4.16 4.58

 

Bloop is a little less interesting now that the Cardinals can't hand him a guaranteed one-year deal, but he was healthy and just effective enough in his two years as a starter, which is what the Cardinals, at a minimum, need out of the bottom of their rotation. The Brewers and the Orioles are interested in him now, and not at all as a reliever—you win this round, Dave Duncan. I thought you were nuts, and so did everybody else in baseball, but now it's taken for granted that Braden Looper—who can't strike anybody else, who spent most of his career as a ROOGY—is a starting pitcher. Well played.

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One of the reasons...

…I’ve been so down on the Cardinals hasn’t been the non-moves as yet. It is the fact we don’t seem to have even considered RJ OR Ben Sheets. We tried to hand big bucks to K-Rod & Fuentes at a position we have a plethora of potential, but can’t be bothered to think about potentially great SP’s at prices we can afford at a position we need AT LEAST two more signings and have a dearth of prospects who even may hypothetically fill those roles in 09.

Sigh.

-- GOOCH

by GOOCH24 on Dec 29, 2008 9:29 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

The burnt child dreads the fire.

Or to make it a little more accurate, the surgeon’s table. As much as I want to see RJ reach 300 and do it with birds on the bat on his chest, the prospects for a 45-year-old throwing 200+ innings of 110 ERA+ are not all that good. If he manages half that many innings at 110 ERA+, he’ll get his 300 but won’t be worth the big bucks, and that is the more likely outcome; 45YO arms are a risk to stop working at any moment, even the Big Ugly’s arm (remember he only had around 50 innings in 2007). I don’t blame Mo at all for looking over his shoulder at all the other busted arms the team has invested in and deciding not to add another one with greater than average risk of going the same way.

Presumably the same concern explains why they’re not pursuing Sheets, who has earned the label “injury prone” even while pitching effectively. Personally, I’d be more willing to take the chance with him, but once again, Mo must be thinking about Carp, Mulder, Clement, etc., every time he looks at the guy. So, for that matter, must all the other GMs, because they’re not exactly on the Sheets bandwagon either.

by StanTheManFan on Dec 29, 2008 10:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

RJ wanted to play on the west coast.

I’m not really sure why this is a point of contention anymore.

by azruavatar on Dec 29, 2008 10:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why all the hand-wringing over RJ?

Every day there is some comment about the Cards’ supposed disinterest in signing RJ. But can someone point me to O-N-E indication from RJ’s camp or RJ himself that he was even remotely considering signing with the Cards – a Midwestern, spring-training-in-Florida team? Does anyone really think that if the Cards had only offered a 1yr/$10MM deal, he would be in St. Louis rather than San Fran? If so, what is the basis for this belief?

It’s one thing to “wish” that RJ would be a Card next year – great, I wish that too. It’s another to repeatedly ascribe the notion that RJ is not a Cardinal to the FO’s disinterest when all anecdotal evidence points to the conclusion that he was only considering about 5 West-coast teams.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 29, 2008 11:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Right.

It’s conceivable that Big Ugly could have been coaxed away from the left coast by offering him mega-megabucks, but even that isn’t certain, and would we have wanted to see him grossly overpaid for one very risky year in St. Louis?

by StanTheManFan on Dec 29, 2008 1:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't buy...

…all this RJ wants WC & ST in ARIZ. I’m sure all of that’s true, but we’re talking about one year. If this were a 4 or 5 year contract, maybe those would be big considerations. But we’re just talking about one year…hell…about 9 months. My guess is that RJ wouldn’t have required a contract from STL be that much better than what he recieved from SF. It just would have needed to be better. D.GOOCH

-- GOOCH

by GOOCH24 on Dec 29, 2008 1:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Because after the millions of dollars he's made

he’s going to be more concerned about $3M than being close to home at age 45?

by azruavatar on Dec 29, 2008 1:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Let me get this straight...

RJ was born and raised outside of Oakland.
He went to USC.
For his first FA contract he chose Arizona, where he still resides. (I used to live in Scottsdale – it is a fantastic and beautiful place to live – it is no accident that tons of athletes (and old people) live there).
After being traded to the Yanks, he orchestrated a return trade to the D-backs for the stated purpose of being closer to his family.
Again a FA, he chose to go back to San Fran, very near to where he grew up, with spring training in Az (where he lives), and that plays a slew of West-coast divisional teams.

Read this article. The contract is likely to be worth more than 1yr/$8MM and Johnson (according to the article) wanted to go to San Fran.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081226&content_id=3728929&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp

There is zero evidence that Johnson had any interest whatsoever in playing for St. Louis.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 29, 2008 3:15 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Again...

We’re talking about a one year contract. I’m sure Randy would have preferred to stay with the D-Backs. But SF got him. We could have gotten him. It’s a 9 month contract…a good third of which is spent on the road anyway.

But all of this misses the point. It isn’t RJ’s interest or lack there of in the Cardinals. It is the apparent lack of interest on the Card’s part for RJ that is so disconcerting. D.GOOCH

-- GOOCH

by GOOCH24 on Dec 29, 2008 6:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe they did pick up the phone.....

I sure would have, and said something like, hey, we hear you want to stay on the west coast, (to confirm it’s true), okay, fine. If you can’t work that out, we’d like you to know we’re interested.

If that’s what you mean, I agree with you. Maybe he retires if he doesn’t get picked up by a team on the west coast-or maybe he takes an offer from a non west coast team- I bet he wants 300 W’s.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 30, 2008 8:43 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you nailed it

it is crazy to believe that he WOULDN"T have signed with a non-west coast team if that would have been his only way to get to 300.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 30, 2008 11:33 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well what I dont get is this:

OK so R might only have wanted to sign with a west coast team…but why when asked about it did MO said “hes not what we are looking for”

instead of, its just not the right fit for him here?

They have been honest about Fuentes wanting to play for LA so why would he say that?

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Dec 30, 2008 11:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe RJ

said something rude to Mo. Baseball people are catty.

by spants on Dec 31, 2008 12:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree

They’re both lefties, so take that back.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 29, 2008 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Right

But what’s our excuse for Ben Sheets?

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 29, 2008 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the issue for many...

…Was the fact that Mo seemed unwilling to even consider it. I can’t say I disagree with that. Why not kick the tires…the worst that could happen is being told “no.”

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 29, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Of course

…maybe he did and never told anyone…who knows.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 29, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How much...

is Oliver Perez asking for?

by rva on Dec 29, 2008 10:08 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

i dont recall

exactly but it was rediculous

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Dec 29, 2008 1:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agent = Boras

So, a lot.

"And you just don't get it, you keep it copacetic..."

by Blicks on Dec 29, 2008 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just say no...

he’s a Type A free agent who isn’t a Type A free agent. Oh, and Boras is another reason. I’ve no interest in overpaying for a mediocre pitcher, I don’t care what his K-9 rate is. D.GOOCH

-- GOOCH

by GOOCH24 on Dec 29, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

His boras folder to the mets repeatedly compared him to Sandy Koufax.

And if Koufax age 27 were around today he would be making more than Sabathia.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 29, 2008 1:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

Are you serious?

This made me laugh out loud.

That Boras guy is crazazy.

by thepainguy on Dec 29, 2008 2:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

crazy like a filthy rich fox

he usually gets his boys the cash. you gotta give him that.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 29, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure he does, but it is biting him in the ass more and more.

See Jared Weaver and Kyle Loshe. I know Loshe eventually got his contract, but he had to risk an entire year of bad performance/injury risk in order to get it. Boras’s harball tactics are starting to make more teams walk away from his clients all together.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 29, 2008 4:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

See "Ramirez, Manny"

if you can’t trust a southern lawyer cooking a kosher meal in a dumpster,
well, then, the world has grown far too cynical

by RosevilleRedbird on Dec 29, 2008 4:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ARod too

he’s not superman anymore that’s for sure, but for the most part he is still getting his guys paid. and that’s all really matters to him & them.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 29, 2008 6:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I presume you mean Jeff

And Jeff Weaver, coming off of a 5.76 ERA and appropriate FIP, getting an 8 million dollar deal is getting screwed over somehow? Jeff Weaver earned ~40 million in his career, I don’t think he’s sweating his agent.

Lohse got hosed over last year yes, but that kind worked out now didn’t it.

(I lose a little bit of my soul every time I defend Scott Boras but the guy is really good at what he does)

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 30, 2008 12:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The point I get from the post

is that any of the six+ pitchers mentioned should be quite helpful to St. Louis but all of them have some kind of issue(health, age, consistency etc.) that makes signing them for big money a question.
I had originally been in favor of spending the whole wad of cash on one of the starting pitchers(Ben Sheets) but now I lean toward a patient approach.
Even if the Birds wait until five of the names on this list are signed, they should still be able to add some help to the position. Waiting can only bring the asking prices of these ballplayers down.
And signing one of these pitchers at a lower price leaves the FO the possibilty of signing more “potential” help from starters who may be looking for shorter, less costly deals(John Smoltz, Pedro Martinez) or even starters on a minor league contract (Carl Pavano, Mark Prior).

by Beardsville Rockers on Dec 29, 2008 12:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

No more medical basket cases, please.

I got cold chills just seeing Pavano’s and Prior’s names in this.

by StanTheManFan on Dec 29, 2008 1:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

then why not...

Pedro’s and Sheets’ names? They are medical basket cases as well.

by stlfan on Dec 31, 2008 10:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

even when injured

Pedro and Sheets have been somewhat productive at least. When was the last Prior or Pavano were?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 31, 2008 11:35 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

When was the last time Pavano

pitched? Or threw over 50 innings?

by spants on Jan 1, 2009 10:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he threw 100 innings in 2005

0 IP in 06
11 1/3 in 07
34 1/3 in 08

I am a bit surprised that not one of those outs was out of the bullpen in any of those seasons. Sounds like a case of not even caring to see if he could help the team out of the BP (possibly on both ends, Pavano’s and the Yanks’)

If the Cards sign this guy I will seriously vomit.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 3, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

tbh

at this point we might as well just bring in someone cheap and crappy.

why not looper?
at least we wont have to sign him for 4 years

www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D

by jealousblues on Dec 29, 2008 1:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You heard it here first.....

Oliver Perez will one day pitch a no hitter: 13K’s, 8BB’s, 2HBP. It will be the ugliest and most awesome no hitter of all time.

He’s not a bad pitcher, and he really has good stuff; but he’s wildly inconsistent. The Mets are still interested in keeping him. They know him best. Let them have him.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 29, 2008 1:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

What is your estimate for the pitch count of that game?

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 29, 2008 2:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ha! 131 1/2.......

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 29, 2008 2:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I saw Sandy Koufax

and believe me…Ollie Perez is noooo….. Sandy Koufax

by ridgesee on Dec 29, 2008 1:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Through age 26....

Koufax and Perez actually aren’t too far off. However, no sane person could say that Perez will sniff anything close to Koufax’s age 27-30 seasons.

by southsidepat on Dec 29, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Drysdale/Koufax

Those two had to be the greatest 1-2 duo ever. For the younger readers, if you saw Steve Carlton at his best then you have seen Koufax. Blazing fastball and wicked curve, then add a nasty change. Koufax was a machine.

victim of the sixties

by victim of the sixties on Dec 30, 2008 6:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought Mo read VEB

Hasn’t he seen how much we want Ben Sheets yet?

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 29, 2008 1:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ha-Ha....

I think that’s an urban myth……

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 29, 2008 2:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

say it ain't so MO!

i swear it’s true. he reads us on his way cool IPhone/Storm combo that only GM’s has access to every morning while getting his cup o joe at Starbucks.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 29, 2008 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nope. 'Tis not true.

He just wanted to sound like one of the cool kids. I don’t believe he reads a word of it.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 29, 2008 2:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what if he does?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 29, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no doubt

next thing she’s gonna say is that Santa Clause isn’t real

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 29, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Santa's not real?

Then who’s playing third base next year?

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Dec 29, 2008 4:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

heh

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 29, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i don't know?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 29, 2008 6:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You can't fool me,

there ain’t no sanity glaus!

by DanUpBaby on Dec 29, 2008 10:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nah-ah. I would never say Santa was not real...

he was just at my house the other day.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 29, 2008 6:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He does

go into the Starbucks where my husband works. I’ll get him to ask Mo if he reads VEB.

by spants on Dec 29, 2008 4:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Starbucks

is where I met a lot of newscasters, when I worked by ABC in Chicago at one.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 29, 2008 4:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I worked at one

for 4 years. One day, Dan Dierdorf came in. The man’s hands are fucking huge.

by spants on Dec 29, 2008 4:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No need to bother him

while he’s enjoying some overpriced coffee. Bukowski asked him this.

Bukowski:Mo,

Do you personally read Viva El Birdos? What do you think about the blogosphere and it’s effect (or lack of) on the game in general – and yes, we know you’re setting a trend with the program you announced…would you ever post on it? Be interviewed for it?.

John Mozeliak: I have read it, loved the report card to my parents…that was funny.

He even has his underlings keeping “tabs” on VEB.

Cardinal70: How much perusing of the Cardinal blogs do you do on a regular basis? I know that you have mentioned in the past that you read Viva El Birdos. Do you check out any of the other ones around the Cardinal blogosphere? And, as a followup, the Dodgers recently had a Bloggers Night where Dodger bloggers watched the game from a box and talked to front office folks and other related team officials. Would this be something the Cardinals would consider?

John Mozeliak: I don’t read them as much as I would if I had more time, but I pay attention to what is being said. Abbamondi and Girsch both keep tabs on it and cut and paste things from time to time. I learned years ago you never know where a good idea may come from.

I think this may be the problem. Mo is pretty busy this time of year, Abbamondi and Girsch must be dropping the ball on the blog front.

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Dec 29, 2008 5:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well, pfft

looks like we need to get some “ATTN: Abbamondi and Girsch” posts going.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 29, 2008 10:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm thinking Ben Sheets isn't going to get the long term contract he was hoping for.

He will then accept the Brewers offer of arbitration (which should get him a pretty nice pay day) and go back on the market next year after proving he’s healthy.

Unless the Angels sneak in at the last minute and sign him to a 3 year deal-which makes sense for them if you think about it.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 29, 2008 2:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The first part at least is still probably basically true. Even though he can’t “accept arbitration,” I believe he could return at that price or thereabouts.

The second part – who knows – but the A’s sure seem to have a lot of pitching prospects including ones bumping at the MLB door.

by ol Pete on Dec 29, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Lowe and Sheets

I’d take Lowe.

He fits the Cards profile to a “T”. He’s a healthy, mechanically clean sinkerballer.

What’s not to like?

I just took a look at Sheets and don’t like what I see…

- Analysis of the Pitching Mechanics of Ben Sheets

by thepainguy on Dec 29, 2008 2:50 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'd take Sheets

because he’s cheaper and better

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 29, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not Me

We don’t need another pitcher with mechanical and health issues.

We need someone solid, not flashy.

Someone like Lowe.

by thepainguy on Dec 29, 2008 4:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

but Lowe is out of our price range

and Sheets’ injury problems aren’t as bad as they seem, imo. plus, if one or both of Carp and Sheets sticks, we are fine and dandy. I just don’t think both of them will get hurt.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 29, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sheets=injury risk

I think that is quite clear…

However, isn’t part of the issue the years and dollars of the two? Lowe, who is quite good, will likely be an OVER-valued commodity due to his ability to eat innings and his durability, thereby driving up the cost.

Sheets, on the other hand, is likely a better pitcher (higher Krate, better control) and is also younger. His injury concerns are very real, but also serve to drive down the cost. Yes, he may only be able to provide 150 innings or fewer…but you’re committed to fewer years and fewer dollars, therefore the risk is lessened somewhat while the reward is much higher.

It’s something to think about anyway…

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 29, 2008 4:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 29, 2008 10:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't we count on

Duncan to look at Sheets’ pitching style, and try to change his mechanics so that he’s less likely to get injured? Isn’t that part of his rep? Isn’t that why we pay Duncan “the big bucks”?

There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 29, 2008 11:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely not.

Pitching coaches can teach mechanics, but generally they steer far clear and Duncan is known for working on lineups, gameplanning and approach. Not mechanics.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Dec 30, 2008 8:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mechanics

I agree.

By the time a guy is as old as Sheets, the odds are better of teaching him to throw from the left side than changing his mechanics from the right side. That is why Duncan doesn’t even try to do that, aside from maybe some minor timing tweaks.

You’re not going to change a guy’s arm action.

If Mark Prior came to me tomorrow and asked me to help him throw like Maddux, I don’t know if it would even be possible due to muscle memory issues.

Again, I think the Cardinals are starting to get this, and it’s reflected in the guys they are drafting.

by thepainguy on Dec 30, 2008 10:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Lowe

Is Lowe over-valued or just plain valued?

A durable, reliable starter is nothing to spit it.

by thepainguy on Dec 30, 2008 10:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We seem to be locked in a circular argument here.

Many of us think that the Sabathia contract was completely out of our price range. I concur. He was.

However, most of those same people here don’t/didn’t want to sign Lowe, Sheets, Randy Johnson. etc… because of age or health concerns.

We can’t have both, people. If a pitcher is old or injured, then he will be cheaper. If he is young and healthy, then he is completely out of our price range.

Mo has been doing his best to find a decent reclamation project because THAT IS ALL WE CAN AFFORD. If we are looking to sign a free agent, then we have to be willing to take some risk. Either we lock up a young effective pitcher to a contract that is too long and expensive, or we sign an aging veteran with health concerns to a short-term deal and hope he holds up.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 29, 2008 4:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

ah

but Lowe is probably the best pitcher left on the market, aside from Sheets

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 29, 2008 4:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree completely.

He is who I would go after.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 29, 2008 5:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well

except that he will cost too much for us

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 29, 2008 5:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what i don't understand is why they were so willing to give Lohse 4ys & a bigillion dollars

but say Lowe is out of their price range.

maybe, just maybe if they weren’t so damned anxious & jumped the gun on giving Kyle all those years & dollars, maybe they could now afford Lowe.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 29, 2008 6:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that's a good point...

…Lowe is also older, so I suppose that figures into the equation. I may be wrong, but I think Lowe has had some back pain issues in the recent past too, and those kinds of things are kind of scary.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 29, 2008 6:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

Lowe is a LOT older than Lohse — more than 5 years. And he has had back issues.

When comparing contracts, think not only about the pitchers they are today, but the pitchers they will be for the last half of the contract. Lohse should still be close to what he currently is, although on the downhill slope. Lowe four years from now may not be able to stand up straight or comb his hair.

by StanTheManFan on Dec 29, 2008 7:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't you know?

There is the hypothetical really good pitcher who can be had for a small contract or can be traded for by giving up Adam Kennedy. You know…that guy!

All kidding aside, I agree with you. This team needs another arm, and it needs a good one…Sheets and Johnson are/were undervalued guys, so they are guys that should have been targeted by the FO. I’m not privy to all the FO communications obviously, so maybe they were targeted, I don’t know. But it’s pretty clear to me those guys are good fits all things considered.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 29, 2008 5:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We need Marti in the bigs next year.

No, not that Marti, it wouldn’t be fair to the other clubs. But there is a new Marti from Cuba to sign. It will be the first time we’ll need the Coast Guard to find us a free agent since he’s probably still floating somewhere in the Caribbean.

From what I’ve found it looks like Yadel Marti is ready to step right into the Majors and his pitching in the WBC would back that up. Mo, grab a GPS and jump into a helicopter, you’ve got a lot of water to search.

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Dec 29, 2008 5:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i think jumping on planes & helicopters looking for talent in the middle of the sea is Luhnow's job

at least it used to be.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 29, 2008 6:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm all for it

A Yadel-Yadier battery is my dream come true.

Get the other Cuban, Yasser Gomez, and Yunel Escobar to play shortstop and we will kick all ass in the first-name-begins-with Y department.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Dec 29, 2008 6:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

was the ankiel...

trade to the yankees mere speculation or an actual rumor? it would be nice if they cards can still deal him to the yanks for ian kennedy and possibly igawa…just throwing it out there. that would put ludwick, colby and schumaker/mather in the outfield, then you could put both skip and colby in the lineup hitting leadoff and 2nd respectively.

check out my blog: Redbird Ramblings
Brad Penny or Bust...
waiting for the 2009 season to begin and colby rasmus to patrol centerfield!

by cards4life on Dec 29, 2008 6:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Diggin' the South Park avatar...

Nice one, Mr. 4Life.

With all the inactivity on the pitching front, especially with starters, is anyone as terrified as I am that the home team is actually betting on a solid, effective, (implausibly) healthy Carpenter? I have this sinking feeling that the front office will work up a PR frenzy like we saw last summer: “Mark Mulder is on the way!” Oh, I get nauseous just thinking about it.

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

by palampe on Dec 29, 2008 10:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Their looking to move a corner OF/DH type...

I’m not so sure they wouldn’t still be interested in a CFer.

Sometimes I wonder,
"Why is that frisbee getting bigger?"

...and then it hits me!!

by cardzfanbub on Dec 29, 2008 11:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If we are going to the scrap heap

looking for pitching that’s ok. For many of the reasons stated above, I don’t really like any of the free agent starters other than Looper. So if we are going to either trade for pitching or sign cheap free agents, here’s an idea.
I think we all would pretty much agree that there are really no free agent pitchers worth our supposed cash surplus. But there is still one major improvement that could be made, and that Tony has been asking for. I think he figures the team’s best chance of winning is while we still have Albert. That means a pretty short time frame. And Tony has asked for an “impact bat” for quite awhile. Therefore, we should sign Adam Dunn.
You probably will say, why give up so much defense in left? Consider this. Even with the bad defense exhibited by Chris Duncan in left, Tony was content to trade that for his bat. Dunn’s bat is a lot better. Defense can’t be much worse.
And consider that signing Dunn would free up another outfielder to package in a trade for young pitching. And what a lineup. Rasmus leading off. Ludwick hits second. Albert third. Dunn hits cleanup. What an argument not to walk Albert. Dunn’s OBP is excellent and opposing pitchers could be in real trouble by walking two in a row because hitting fifth is Yadier. He is second only to Albert in putting the ball in play. Yes, this will result in a ton of double plays, but if Albert and Dunn have been walked then he either kills an inning or drives in a run. Then I would hit Glauss sixth where he seems to thrive. Our new guy, Kahlil Greene would hit seventh and provide some pop. I’m sure Tony would continue to hit the pitcher eighth and that would leave Kennedy ninth. That’s a pretty impressive offensive machine.
Then make the trades necessary to fill out the pitching, hopefully finding a young starter with promise and another loogy. But at this point I think we might spend our dollars more productively finding that impact bat to protect Albert.

victim of the sixties

by victim of the sixties on Dec 30, 2008 7:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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