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What Mark means to Albert

Derrick Goold touched on something Wednesday that I’ve been waiting to address for some time. I was waiting (and, to be fair, he probably was, too) for Mark Teixeira to sign his big money contract before delving into the inevitable question – how much is Albert going to be worth when his contract reaches its end?

Teixeira’s contract doesn’t make him the highest paid player in the game but it is substantial – 8 years, $180 M – and, given next year’s free agent class, it’s probably going to be the best barometer of where contracts are headed for the next couple of years. There simply doesn’t appear to be anybody in next year’s free agent class who will eclipse Teixeira’s current deal. Of course, we also cannot forget the contract ARod signed just slightly more than a year ago either. He’s the highest paid player in the game and really the only one who calls into question Pujols’ status as the best player in the game so we shouldn’t fool ourselves into thinking that Albert’s agent won’t use ARod’s 10 year, $275 M contract as a sign of Albert’s worth.

When discussing Walt Jocketty’s successes and failures during his tenure as GM w/ the Cards, Albert’s current contract rarely enters the discussion alongside the trades for Edmonds, Kile, and McGwire. However, it shouldn’t escape notice what a beneficial contract it’s been from the Cards’ standpoint. In February of 2004, Pujols signed a 7 year, $100 M contract w/ an option for an 8th year at $16 M. Sure, Albert’s gotten rich from it but he’s been worth far more to the team than he’s been paid. Below is an estimate of Albert’s worth over the duration of the contract, courtesy of fangraphs (damn, I love that new feature!).

Year Worth Salary Value to team
2004 $24.9 M $7 M $17.9 M
2005 $26.1 M $11 M $15.1 M
2006 $28.6 M $14 M $14.6 M
2007 $31.0 M $15 M $16 M
2008 $40.5 M $16 M $24.5 M
Totals $151.1 M $63 M $88.1 M

The value the team has gained – above and beyond the amount paid to Pujols – during this 5 year time span is almost as great as the Cards’ payroll in ’08. The $100 M contract was a tremendous investment by the Cards in 2004 even if Pujols is hurt tomorrow and never plays another game as a Cardinal (bite your fingers, chuck!). The team owes him 2 more seasons at $16 M per season and then the team has that $16 M option for 2011.

Many Cards’ fans have already broached the subject about extending Pujols’ contract to keep him in St. Louis the rest of his career. With 2 years + an option remaining, however, it’s a little early to go there, or have we learned nothing from that awful extension given to Chris Carpenter? Still, it would be foolish to allow Pujols to become a free agent w/o trying to extend him -- or even to be forced into the position of having to pick up his 2011 option. In all likelihood, the best time to approach Pujols about an extension is after next season since 2010 would be his last guaranteed year in a Cardinal uni. The Cards’ brass will have to weigh the fact that the longer they wait, the higher contracts rise w/ the increased knowledge they gain by allowing Pujols to play more. Before entering into another long-term deal, they’re going to need to decide how long Albert’s going to be productive, how healthy he’ll be, and how great he’ll be as he enters his mid-30s.

Albert will turn 29 in January, 2009 so that’ll be his age during year 1 of any contract signed next offseason. An 8 year contract will take him through his age-36 season and a 10 year contract will take him through age-38. It’s reasonable to think that there will be considerable degradation of his skills and ability to stay healthy as he ages considering the fact that he’s suffered through one injury after another over the last several years. Also, unlike ARod or Teixeira, the Cards wouldn’t be able to move him to DH in order to keep him healthy as he ages or to protect the team against the degradation of his defensive skills. While Teixeira signed his long-term contract as a 28 year old, ARod’s long-term contract was signed when he was 31. Still, when ARod signed his deal he had played at least 154 games 7 seasons in a row while Teixeira’s played in 145+ games every season except for 2007 in his career.

Some might also point to the 8 year, $153 M contract Miguel Cabrera signed last offseason as a barometer of Pujols’ worth but that deal is a little different than the other two. Notably, the Cabrera deal bought out the final 2 years of arbitration and added 6 years to it. Cabrera simply didn’t have the leverage for 2008-2009 that Pujols will Teixeira or ARod had or that Pujols will have for it to be considered a very good gauge of Pujols’ market. Perhaps we could look at the final 6 years and $126 M as a decent measure. As with Teixeira’s deal, we’re looking at an annual rate of nearly $22 M. Maybe we can use those 6 years for comparison’s sake but I wouldn’t weight them the way I would the Teixeira or ARod deals.

The table below shows ARod’s, Cabrera’s, and Teixeira’s WAR numbers from the 3 years prior to their contracts being extended. Year 1 is the most recent year. Year 2 is 2 years prior and year 3 is 3 years prior. The idea is that these 3 years should be weighted, when attempting to determine future WAR numbers, on a 3/2/1 scale. Year 1 numbers count 3 times. Year 2 numbers twice and year 3 numbers once.

Yr 1 Yr 2 Yr 3 Est WAR
ARod 8.7 4.8 8.9 7.4
Cabrera 5.6 7.0 4.6 5.9
Teixeira 6.8 4.0 3.2 5.3

I took the estimated WAR numbers for each player and decreased them by ½ a win per year for ARod and .3 WAR per year for Teixeira due to age. I kept Cabrera’s constant through year 3 and then devalued his at .3 WAR per year as well. They’ll age and get slightly worse due to declining skills or health. I also increased the average contract value by 8% per year to account for inflation in the market. Now, it’s true that we don’t know if that will continue for the next couple of years due to the current economic situation so that estimate might be slightly high for the first couple of years, but it also might be slightly low for the ensuing years since contracts have increased by about 10% the last few years.

Summing ARod’s value over ten years means that he would be worth roughly $315 M over this time period. Cabrera’s value over 6 years comes to about $200 M, and Teixeira’s value come to roughly $213 M over 8 years. Subtract roughly 10% from each player’s value to estimate the stability that a long-term contract provides – what the player gives up in order to get an 8 year contract, for example, instead of 8 1 year contracts – and that brings ARod to $283.7 M over 10 years, Cabrera to $180.8 M over 6 years, and Teixeira to $192.1 M over 8 years. The ARod and Teixeira contracts are pretty close to their actual worth as determined by this exercise while Cabrera’s isn’t that close. Cabrera’s 2 arbitration years play no small part in this discrepancy.

So what will Albert be worth? Let’s do the same 3/2/1 exercise w/ Albert’s last 3 seasons. He’s been tremendously consistent over his career so it may make this easier to predict. This makes Albert worth 8.3 WAR and we’ll assume Albert’s WAR will decline by .3 wins per season. Whoa! The sum over 10 years is nearly $490 M. Goold asked in his article if Albert would be the first $300 M player. Wow! Maybe we should assume a greater degradation of Albert’s skills and health throughout the 10 years. Let’s assume a ½ a win decline – barking feet, bad elbows, and an inability to DH will have their impact. That’s more like it – now we’re down to $415 M over 10 years.

Ok, we’re really going to be conservative now. Let’s take Albert’s worst season in terms of wins since his rookie year – 2007’s 7.6 WAR and reduce them by ½ a win per year. Now we’re at $365 M. We’ll reduce it by 10% as we did the others to account for the stability of a long-term deal and that brings us to a 10 year contract worth about $328 M. Will Albert be baseball’s first $300 M man? Probably, yes. He certainly will deserve to be.

Let’s call it an even $300 M over 10 years. Interestingly, ARod’s contract is front-loaded – w/ him earning $32 M in 2009-10 and declining to $20 M in 2017. What a smart move by Brian Cashman! I don’t know that either the Cards or Albert will go along w/ that for many reasons. Nevertheless, it’s reasonable to ask the question, "Is it really in the Cards’ best interest to pay anyone – I don’t care how great he’s been or will be -- $30 M + per season?" That’ll be in the neighborhood of 25% of the Cards’ payroll. Can we afford to put together a competitive team if we give 1 player, regardless of who that player is, $30 M?

Now, some will say that Albert isn’t about money and won’t want $30 M per season. If we give him $22 to match Teixeira’s – he’ll be satisfied. I don’t think so. There’s an ego thing w/ all ballplayers and you don’t get to be as good as Albert w/o an ego. He’ll want to be paid as the best player in the game and, I think, will expect the Cards to reward him for being underpaid all those years. That would absolutely be the wrong thing to do, IMO. It is a colossal mistake when teams pay for performance they’ve already received rather than performance they’ll get in the future. Now, in this case it’s likely that Albert will earn that $300 M and then some so that admonition may not apply here but it’s still one to keep in mind.

No other team in baseball pays 1 player ¼ of its entire team’s payroll and we all witnessed what happened to the Rangers when they signed ARod. Is Pujols worth 2 #2 starting pitchers? We could have 2 good starters and Brett Wallace at 1st w/ Freese or Craig manning 3rd. I don’t know (and I’m really playing devil’s advocate here) but I’m not convinced it will be in our interest to pay Albert what he’ll be worth. We’re not the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers or Angels and we can bad mouth them all we want, it’s not going to change the fact that the Cards may not be able to afford to pay $30 M per season to anyone – even Albert. Will it be in the Cards’ interest to wait a year, until just prior to the team’s option year? I don’t think so. Salaries will only escalate overall and Albert’s been amazingly consistent. It’s not like we don’t know what to expect from him. The only way it benefits the team to wait is if he spends a good portion of ’09 injured.

If the Cards can’t (or decide not to) resign him, should they try and trade him after ’09? What kind of bounty could the team get for Albert w/ 1 year and an option left on his deal? I know that I’m blaspheming now but these are all questions the front office is going to have to face in the coming year. I guess it’s a pretty good problem to have though, huh?

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You forgot to mention an important advantage for the Cards...

That 2011 option is a club option. If we extend him to include that year (thus declining the option) say for 25 M. Thats 9 M dollar advantage over any other team that will offer Albert a contract as a FA. He (and his agent) will have to make the decision on whether to take an extra 9 M now or hold out for FA and possibly get more spread out over a 8-10 year period.

I also disagree with your analysis of comparing ARod and Tex to what Pujols will command. The biggest factor is that ARod and Tex had the Yanks, Sox, and Angels interested in their services. Simply having the Yanks involved got these players significantly more per year than any other team was willing to offer (save for the token National/Rangers type team that offers a lot, but players inherently know that going there means losing the remainder of their career).

ARod wouldn’t have gotten if the Yanks had not decided to jump back in and resign him. He would have probably gotten 25-26 M without the Yanks involved. With Tex, he got 2.5 M more over 8 years (total of 20 M) to play for the Yanks instead of the Sox or Angels. If you want an extreme, Jeter is probably a 15-16 M player anywhere else, but he’s an 18.9 M player for the Yanks. Sabathia got much MUCH more money from the Yanks than any other team offered. The list really can go on and on (Damon, Matsui, Giambi, etc…). So basically, just having the Yankees interested appears to be worth about 2.5 M per season (based on the Tex and ARod contracts) and even more if you look at their complete history.

Its unlikely that the Yanks would be interested in Pujols (I say unlikely that the Yanks would be interested in Pujols, although anything is possible). They have a 1B for 8 years, and I would think Pujols wouldn’t be interested in DH. They’ll also have to find a whole new OF by that time, as Nady, Swisher, Damon, and Matsui will all be FA. They’ll need a closer, catcher, and spare parts based on injuries to the current roster. In other words, they have a lot of wholes to fill and I wouldn’t imagine another DH/1B is top priority.

by CrimsonBirdFan on Dec 27, 2008 8:54 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Use a variable scale

At these prices, perhaps a variable scale would work for both parties That is, scale the contract to some metric so that if Albert exceeds he gets paid the $400 million and if he regresses, he gets closer to $200-250 over the life. If albert had had that in the last 4 years he’d be much richer. in theory if the metric translates into wins then you shouldn’t mind paying him 1/4 of payroll because he’ll generate wins to offset that. Another way to do this would be to give Albert a smaller base and huge bonuses if we make playoffs since the owners then have extra revenue — effectively making him a partner in the success of the team without actual ownership rights.

 Having said that, I agree that some players might simply be too expensive to ever produce the correct return.

  Of course, Albert likes to win so he knows that getting 1/4 of Redbird payroll really just means he will be a high paid player on a mediocre team.

Also as posted above, these salaries only happen when the yankees (and maybe red sox) are in the bidding. If Yanks show no interest, it will deflate the external market considerably.

Still you have to wonder what Albert would bring in a trade. Hard to believe he gets any better or has any more market value than he has right now.

by The Duke on Dec 27, 2008 9:31 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Can't see it

You know by these standards Stan Muscial would of been traded for a couple of decent long term prospects? There are some players who transcend any kind of “value” that can be placed on them. Should the Cards have traded Muscial, Should the Bulls have traded Jordan, of course not!! You don’t trade the cornerstone/ambassador of your franchise if it can be avoided in any way. I don’t see Albert as a “me” guy, he’s built a lot in the city of St. Louis and he’s shown that he has values that go beyond mere dollars.

  It would be unwise to not find a way to keep Albert happy and appreciated without destroying our ability to win games. I don’t see Albert as the kind of player who would want the Cardinals to invest in just him rather than winning. He should retire a Cardinal and take a seat in the management or coaching departments when he’s done playing, that’s the kind of value Albert brings to the Cardinals the forever kind of value, that’s how I feel about it anyway. .

by ghostofjimlindeman on Dec 27, 2008 10:04 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

actually...

Cardinals management (pre-Busch) had a deal in place to trade Musial to the Pirates and he refused to go.

by nmstar on Dec 27, 2008 10:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, it was POST-Busch...

’twas “Frantic” Frank Lane who was gonna deal “The Man”… once Gussie heard about it, that was the end of that proposed deal!

Even in these days, there’s still such a thing as a player who “puts fannies in the seats”… and Albert is one of ’em!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Dec 27, 2008 11:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I stand corrected!

I thought I remembered reading a book where Musial was telling the player he rode to the stadium with that the team was going to trade him and he wasn’t going.

by nmstar on Dec 27, 2008 11:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It wasn't post-Busch

or Pre-Busch. It was Busch.

by Mike G on Dec 27, 2008 12:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It was Sportsman Park at the time

also it is a shame that that about half of everything posted about baseball anymore is about money…salaries, value in money etc. Oh! for the good old days of Mays, Mantle, Musial, DiMaggio, Williams and so on.

by ridgesee on Dec 27, 2008 3:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Prospect.

Never panned out.

by spants on Dec 27, 2008 5:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually,

it’s a misspelling of ‘Musical’, and was in fact a Broadway-bound play about “The Man”, but a pre-opening night showing for NY critics was badly panned, so it never made it beyond rehearsals.

There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 27, 2008 7:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the things you learn on VEB

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 27, 2008 8:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just why is it blasphemy?

Sure, it would be like Christmas with all the new toys the Cardinals could get in exchange for letting Albert go. Financially speaking, it might make sense. Perhaps it could even bring more championships. Then again, here are some considerations that are difficult to place a value on:

1. Albert’s personal character is almost as unique as his ability. Is it more fun to cheer for A-Rod or Albert? Would we rather have our kids idolize Albert, or someone like Barry Bonds or Manny Ramirez? It’s nice to win, but there’s something to be said for being able to like the guys you’re cheering for.

2. How would we all deal with that hollow feeling in our guts as we watch Albert do his thing for another team for ten years? The Mets? The Red Sox? Talk about depression!

3. Conversely, Cardinal fans’ love for Albert will get better with age. If Willie McGee can return to St. Louis at the end of his career and have rock star status, how great will Albert’s later years be?

4. Twenty, thirty, or forty years down the road, it’ll be nice to have another Stan Musial around of whom future Cards fans can be proud. The Marlins have a couple of championships, but what tradition do they have to show for it? If Bobby Bonilla shows up at games in Miami to play his harmonica when he’s 75 years old, will anyone care?

5. What if he somehow ended up in a Cubs uniform later in life? (OK, that won’t happen. See point #1 about Albert’s character.)

Eventually, new toys break or wear out, and then what would Cardinals fans have left to show for it? Resist the materialism, I say!

by bamboobird on Dec 27, 2008 10:14 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

value

He’s worth a hell of a lot more then ARod in production (see ARod in playoffs) and personality (see banging sleazy washed up pop star) . I for one want to see Albert learn the guitar and start a band with Musical on vocals/ harmonica, maybe Terry Pendelton on Drums and Bruce “Donald Duck” Sutter on bass, they could call them selves ‘Brown Water’ and play down at the Landing.

by ghostofjimlindeman on Dec 27, 2008 10:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bring back

Pepper Martin’s Mudcats! Quoting from the website “Illuminations and Epiphanies”:

Martin also led the Cardinals’ hillbilly jug band, the Mississippi Mudcats, which performed locally in St. Louis, appeared on at least one national radio broadcast, and even gave a few performances while the team was on the road until management stepped in and suggested the athletes concentrate on their on-field performance.

Alas, I couldn’t find a picture of the Mudcats on the web… there’s a video clip somewhere that shows the Mudcats playing music, and then “fading” into their baseball uniforms, with Pepper saying, “C’mon, boys, let’s play some ball!”

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Dec 27, 2008 11:35 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

but Lindeman is right

what is up with that?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 27, 2008 4:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If only

If only I could find it on vinyl..

by ghostofjimlindeman on Dec 27, 2008 12:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I would be interested in knowing

just what it is that makes Boston so much richer a market than St. Louis other than the owners’ willingness to spend.

by Mike G on Dec 27, 2008 12:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

TV deals etc

A lot of it is the market they’re in, the tv deals they have in place, ticket prices, Boston has the highest ticket prices in Baseball, they have their own network in NESN which rakes in millions, it’s a marketing juggernot. Plus in places like Boston and New York people generally have higher incomes, with higher cost of living also, so they can afford the insane ticket prices, parking all that B.S. The waiting list for Red Sox season tickets is something like 25-30 years I assuming, same for Yankees is my guess. I still think that Tampa proved there is a way to beat the big spenders with smart baseball. I.E. trading Albert er not good idea…

by ghostofjimlindeman on Dec 27, 2008 12:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Where is Gussie to offer Albert

part ownership of some local brewery distributorships, etc?

How about Bill DeWitt set up an annuity account that the day Albert retires buys him ownership into the team. He could become a 5% owner of the organization, along with his big payday.

Bottom line, even if Albert goes the way of Todd Helton, there is no excuse not to pay Albert what it takes to stay here. He is a rare breed that is the face of the franchise for decades. When he retires, he’ll join Stan and Gibby as a guy people automatically think of when they think of the Cardinals organization.

And if they trade Albert or don’t resign him, I’ll have to take a long hard look at whether or not I want to support this franchise anymore.

Just mark it down as sunk cost, Bill and have two different payrolls: Albert and everybody else.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 27, 2008 12:53 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Charity?

Perhaps they could offer Albert $20 mil per year player salary plus an annual contribution to the Pujols Family Foundation. This could even be 2 mil per year for 20 years (or something along those lines.) Albert is very passionate about his Foundation, it would be great for Cardinals PR and it would be tax deductible for the Cards.

Not sure if that is possible or not, just an idea.

by krueger427 on Dec 27, 2008 1:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

OR

Pujols could sign for more money with another team and make himself the contributions. There isn’t an easy, pain-free solution. If we want him, we should just pay the man what he is worth and not expect him to turn down more money elsewhere. His loyalty to the club should guarantee that he accepts an offer from us that is equal to his other offers. This is all the loyalty I would ask of him.

by viktor on Dec 27, 2008 10:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I completely agree

Albert’s value to the franchise, at a gut check level, is greater than mere dollars or prospects.

if you can’t trust a southern lawyer cooking a kosher meal in a dumpster,
well, then, the world has grown far too cynical

by RosevilleRedbird on Dec 27, 2008 2:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agree as well.

The game is filled with really good and even great players – Teixeira, Braun, Cabrera, Berkman, Wright. The game is even dotted with generational players – ARod, Jeter, Ichiro. Albert transcends all of those players. Cabrera is probably the closest offensive comp and Albert exceeds his production by a significant margin. There are some players who exceed Albert in single categories – but no player is as complete as Albert in the box. Tex matches Albert defensively, but the offense is no contest. ARod will likely end up with more HR’s and can match Albert’s MVP’s, but he will never garner the respect Albert has from players, fans and the media. Jeter has more rings but he will never be in any greatest player ever debates and Albert can match his competitive fire and do whatever it takes to win attitude. On top of that Albert is not only a rock solid teammate and clubhouse guy, but he is also a leader – anyone else remember this game in 2005 when Eck was up with the bases loaded in the bottom of the 9th and Albert came out to the on deck circle and pulled John Rodriguez back into the dugout because he knew Eck would deliver? In addition to all of that he is an active, community focused citizen who works hard to raise money for charity. He’s never in the news with a gun or a bimbo or narcotics. El Hombre is absolutely EVERYTHING we fans want in a superstar and franchise player. He is our Peyton Manning, our MJ, our Musial. Good player come and go. Great players are memorable. Albert is neither good nor great. He is peerless.

I understand examining payroll limitations and long term opportunities for the franchise, but I truly cannot understand any STL fan who honestly would support a Redbird team sans Albert. DeWitt must realize he has more than just a great player and ammend any normal financial blueprints for the duration of Albert’s career because Albert is a player the majority of franchises never have once, let alone twice. The day #5 hangs em up will be a sad, sad day in my household. If there is ever a day that Albert wears a uniform without the BOB or a Dominican flag I will seriously reconsider an allegiance that is going on 9 decades.

by rlgosnell on Dec 27, 2008 3:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

very well said, rigosnell!

if you can’t trust a southern lawyer cooking a kosher meal in a dumpster,
well, then, the world has grown far too cynical

by RosevilleRedbird on Dec 27, 2008 4:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Albert is truly peerless in the game right now. Good call.

Maybe it’s just me, but seeing El Hombre compared so much to DiMaggio on Baseball Reference has made me want to learn a lot more about the Yankee Clipper now.

by nmstar on Dec 27, 2008 8:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

an a-b distributorship

was given to maris to get him to play in stl

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 27, 2008 5:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Be Careful About Market Assumptions

No one this year needs to be reminded that markets do not continually rise, whether it’s real estate or stocks or sports superstars’ salaries. The mess the Yanks have made of the FA market this year is out of fear and desperation—they have a huge new stadium to fill (and no they don’t sell out on season tickets) and the many financial fat cats that underwrite a lot of the party boxes and field level seats are going to have to be replaced. Their 2009 ticket prices are already inflated and to maintain ad revenue on YES and radio they will have to have a contending product all of this year.

I think any value on any athlete, even a special one like APu, may be very different after next season. The country is just not business as usual with 10%+ unemployment and lower renewals for season tickets and less ad revenue, etc. I am one fan who is pleased so far with Mo’s reluctance to spend, even filling Busch may be (note "may") more difficult even with a better team in 2009. Watch for more promotions and ticket discounting, that will be the key. Resellers beware, and let’s just sit and see what the market will be 11 months from now.

by CAredbird on Dec 27, 2008 2:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

If ownership goes "cheap" and decides not give Albert what he wants

and he goes to sign with a Boston or LA team…..it will really make me re-think my love for baseball or at least the Cardinals franchise. This would be the ultimate slap in the face to what I consider one of the greatest fanbases in America. I could get over a strike that takes away a post season. I could get over the steroids scandal of some of the big stars of the past (including McGwire)….but this would be a blow I don’t think I could take. There should be no excuse to not sign the greatest Cardinal next to Stan. If Albert goes….I’m afraid I will too and I bet a large portion of the fanbase will as well. It would take years and years for the Cardinals to recover from a disasterous public relations and team decision if they didn’t re-sign him. Sorry but it’s how I feel.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 27, 2008 2:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

If I was Albert

I would be interested not only in how much money I could make, but how good the team around me was going to be. If Albert’s salary jumps $10-15MM per season he will probably want some assurances that team payroll will rise dollar for dollar so the franchise can remain competitive. It will be interesting to see what DeWitt et al do about that. Wouldn’t surprise me if they sell the franchise and let someone else deal with it, if the market doesn’t totally bury the team’s value.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 27, 2008 3:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

what could the Cards get in trade?

anything & anyone they wanted. then said team would back up the Brinks truck & give Albert $40 quadtrillion dollars & he’d be the face of their franchise for the rest of his life.

the question shouldn’t be what could the Cards get, but can the Cards afford to give him up? i’m not just talking dollars & cents. can the Cardinals afford to take the PR hit for many years to come if they traded someone who could turn out to be the greatest player who ever sat foot on a diamond? many fans already consider the owners cheapskates. just imagine what they’ll think if Dewitt & Co trade him because they say they can’t afford to keep him?

what other team has traded a player like Albert in his prime? did the Yanks trade the Babe, Joe D or The Mick? did the Giants trade Mays? did Braves trade Aaron? did the Cards trade The Man? the answer is no. there’s a damn good reason it’s no as well. you just don’t trade a player like Albert. you just don’t.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 27, 2008 3:23 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

well...

… the Yanks didn’t trade the Babe, but the Red Sox did, and the Yanks did refuse to re-sign him at the end of his career so the Babe’s final season was for the (Boston) Braves. the Giants actually did trade Mays, to the Mets in 1972.

i’m not saying it’s the right decision. but it does happen, and franchises do survive.

if it takes 10/$350 to sign him i will understand if the Cards don’t pony up, and i’ll understand if Albert takes the money. in the end it’s still a business, and i can’t forget that.

by kindred on Dec 27, 2008 3:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

read carefully, i said traded in their prime.

i’m glad i wasn’t alive to see Willie limp around Shea the final years of his career. there’s a reason many consider the sawx trade of The Babe is the worst trade in baseball history. the sawx didn’t recover till the next century. does anyone want to see that happen to the Cardinals?

i totally agree it’s a biz & it’s something we fans really, really need to in mind. but when it comes to Albert Pujols, does anyone really think the Cardinals can afford to take the gigantic PR hit if they trade him? he is the greatest player of our generation, there has to be a middle ground where the team can pay him something, anything in the neighborhood of his value, satisfy his ego, and be able to also pay other players so they can keep putting a winning ball club on the field. right?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 27, 2008 8:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

better question is, who WASN'T traded.

at least in this generation.

Going from a combination of active players on albert’s “comparable players” list at B-R and guys who won mvp awards at age 30 or lower in the 90’s and 00’s ( i might have missed a few, but i got tired of googling):

  • Todd Helton, frank thomas, Jeff Bagwell, Chipper Jones and Lance Berkman stayed with their original teams.

Everyone else:

  • a-rod (probably the most comparable player)- fa at age 24, traded after age-27 season…
  • david ortiz, flat-out released at age 26
  • Barry Bonds, Larry Walker, Vlad Guerrerro fa at age 27.
  • Jeff Kent and CC Sabathia (not comps, but potential HOF) traded at age 27
  • johan santana traded after age 28
  • Griffey jr, Juan Gonzalez was traded at age 29 (albert’s age next year).
  • albert belle, fa after age 29 season (out of baseball after age 33!)
  • ordonez, mo vaughn walked at age 30
  • carlos lee traded at age 30

For “old school baseball was better” types, Jimmy Foxx (another great comp for albert) was sold to the red sox after age 27 season, because he wanted more money than the A’s were willing to give him… in 1935.

they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums

by SleepyCA on Dec 27, 2008 9:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

let me give the reasons why those players were traded or let go

ARod went to Tex for $250Mil, then forced his way out & went to the Yanks when he realized he could never win there. and in case you all forget, he tried to go to bean town first but Manny being Manny blocked the deal.

Ortiz was released because BILLIONAIRE & RICHEST OWNER IN MLB Carl Pohlad refused to part with some of his penny’s.

Bonds left to go home to the Bay. Pitt tried but could not resign him

Walker & Vlad both escaped the black hole that was the Expos organization as soon as the could. can you really blame them?

Kent was, is & always will be a cancer who can rake.

CC was traded because the Tribe couldn’t pay him what the Yanks could & they got some real good talent in return.

Santana was another victim of Pohlad’s greed.

Jr forced his way out of the Great Northwest because he wanted to go home.

Juan Gone, actually i totally forget why he was traded. maybe because he got off the juice and lost his power?

Belle was, is & always will be bat quano crazy with or without a bat in his hand. if not for a bad hip he probably could have made the hall.

Ordonez was coming off knee surgery done in one of the former Soviet Union’s states. he was lucky to even get a minor league invite to spring training.

Vaughn walked for more cash out east.

now what does all that tell us? most of those players left their first teams for, say it with me class, MORE MONEY! will Albert do the same to the Cardinals? the only people that can answer that question are Albert, Dewitt & MO. and we know out of the three only MO reads VEB so if we are looking for an answer, he’s our best bet.

so MO, care to give us a peak into the future of the St. Louis Cardinals?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 27, 2008 9:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that depends...

… they can probably pay him $20-25mn and still field a competitive club, but they probably can’t pay him $30-35mn and do the same.

it’s tough, because Albert is seemingly on the verge of missing a TON of time from injury every single season. and plantar fascitis usually gets worse with time, not better. if we pay Pujols $25mn and don’t get Pujols-like production from him, or we only get it for half a season, then the season is over. that sort of salary also gives the team little flexibility if someone else gets injured or becomes ineffective. that’s not necessarily a position i want to be in for a decade.

i want Pujols to retire as a Cardinal. i don’t want to seem him in any other jersey, ever. at the same time, i want the team to be able to sustain success over the medium-run.

oh well. 2011 is a long time away. i’m not worried about it yet.

by kindred on Dec 27, 2008 9:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm a worrier by nature

i can’t help it.

i think that’s a big reason why the last few seasons they have put a big emphasis on player development. they could have already come to the conclusion unless they have some really good young AND cheap players coming up year after year, there’s no way they can afford to keep Albert & field a winning team.

if Albert will play for only $25Mil a year, that’s a huge home town discount & will only add to the belief he really does care about winning more than personal accomplishments.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 27, 2008 9:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no comment

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 27, 2008 4:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

So what if Albert.....

Comes out and says he wants “x” dollars, and simply put, it is a number the
Cardinals organization cannot pay any one player, no matter how great?!?

I’m hopeful that Albert will take a major hometown discount, but if he doesn’t, if he isn’t willing to get creative with his contract, take less dollars, or something of that caliber, really, what choice will the team have? Can the Cardinals really put a quality team on the field if Albert is making $35M per season? I don’t know.

"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."

by SoonerfanTU on Dec 27, 2008 4:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

There is no salary cap in baseball

there is no number that is out of the reach of these billionaire owners. Just, what is out of their comfort level.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 28, 2008 1:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Non related to the main topic

But does anyone know how minor league stats are converted to major league equivalents? I’m curious about the formulas that are used and what assumptions are made about minor league pitching vs the majors

by riotmute on Dec 27, 2008 5:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

fanpost

i did a fanpost on some of these topics not too long ago. it really seems to me that dewitt already has the goal of signing albert in mind and has a gameplan in place for just that. i think that is why we have seen the non-signings and short contracts the past few years.

i proposed 10 years, 300 million then and after reading this and goold’s column that estimate is probably even on the short side.

the degradation in 1st base defense doesn’t scare me too much. i know that it will get worse but even if it does it should take a while for him to become league average with the glove.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Dec 27, 2008 7:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Albert's Limited Trade Value

Very few would argue, and probably nobody here, that Albert is the MLB’s best player. That being the case, I would think that would severely limit his trade value, for the same reasons that only a handful of teams were bidding for Mark Tex.

Yes, any reasonable trade return for Albert would include LOTS of talent. In addition, whatever team took Albert would be facing plopping down the monster contract of the century.

That being the case, the only teams the Cards could realistically trade Al to would be the usual suspects- Halos, Yanks, BoSox, etc.

Am I wrong about that?

by Scarecrow7775 on Dec 27, 2008 8:53 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

My point is...

if I mistakingly assume that I’m correct- the questions is whether or not to trade him (which might be realistically impossible)- it’s rather just a question of re-sign or don’t re-sign.

by Scarecrow7775 on Dec 27, 2008 8:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

various typos

“the question isn’t whether or not…”

by Scarecrow7775 on Dec 27, 2008 9:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yes you are

with all the hand-wringing, Albert is signed for 3 more years at a very reasonable rate. If he were to be put up at the deadline I would bet my VEB account that 95% of the teams would get on the phone and quick.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 27, 2008 9:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and now that I read the qualifiers

I am not sure what you mean, but I still stand by my comment

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 27, 2008 9:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

rereading my post, I’m not even sure I understand it now.

I’m looking at it this way- a team would have to gut their system, or their current big league talent, or a combo of both AND write the largest contract in MLB history (which I would think they would be forced to do because the talent they’d give up would necessitate a “long term Albert return”)

I think the teams that could do all that is a pretty short list. I also agree with the first poster up top in saying the Yanks would probably not do the deed since they signed Tex.

I’m also assuming that Albert would be with the Birds for 2009- which would reduce it to 2 years of admittedly ungodly value.

by Scarecrow7775 on Dec 27, 2008 9:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You have me thinking...

…how many players in MLB are currently performing at a level that has them over $10mil below their market value, as Albert probably is.

I don’t know where to go to source that info.

by Scarecrow7775 on Dec 27, 2008 9:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Now vs. later

I have to say that the franchise’s relucatance to make firm commitments to the type supporting cast needed to win another World Series is frustrating. They did a beautil job constructing the 2000-2006 ball clubs and got lucky with Pujols bursting onto the scene as The Greatest Baseball Player in the World. But, after the 2004 season, they made some poor decisions, beginning with Juan Encarnacion (God bless him), and continuing with Kennedy, extending Carp for too long, etc. I felt like last season was a waste of Pujols’s talent. We only have four or so years left of him at his peak and must make a demonstrative move this offseason to show that they are serious about leveraging his greatness into another title run.

I am someone who firmly believes in Mo’s stated philosophy of building from within, and still very much believe in it, but I also recognize that Albert Pujols is only going to step into the box so many more years in the birds-on-bat. Whether this means being creative with a trade for a starter or going after a FA starter.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 27, 2008 8:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Great post bgh

You hit the nail on the head there and share similar beliefs as I do as what the team should be doing NOW. It’s starting to get really frustrating. It’s like 2006 was enough for one Mr. DeWitt. They are wasting a chance at another run I’m afraid.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 27, 2008 9:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Big Unit

This is a major reason why the Big Unit’s signing was so frustrating. I know that it has been widely reported that Johnson preferred a left coast club, but it was also widely reported that the Cards were not even talking to his agents.

I hope that we are in the thick of a Japanese import or other FA starter. If not, I think that we need to look at what we can get for Ankiel (it deeply pains me to type that, but with Boras as his agent, I have to come to grips with reality). The Cards have to plan for 2009 as if Carp is not going to toe the rubber in Busch Stadium.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 27, 2008 9:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

also agree the bob needs to make a push

i can understand how bdw is concerned about future cash flow, but i also wonder why we don’t hear much about how cheap money is right now. shouldn’t they be refinancing the loans on the new stadium, and everything else they can mortgage, if they haven’t already? seems they could drastically alter their future financing costs and thereby change their position relative to the teams playing in publicly financed stadiums? teams with long term leases are stuck, but the cards don’t have that commitment.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 27, 2008 10:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good article

I just wanted to point out that Matt Holliday is in next year’s free agent class. I don’t know if he’ll eclipse Teixeira’s contract, but he could come close, depending on how he does this season and whether or not the Yankees are one of the teams that go after him.

by NateHST on Dec 28, 2008 4:24 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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