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Hot Stove Catch-All Thread 12/21 until 300-ish comments

So all has been quiet on the Cardinals' front this past week. Everything has pretty much been at a stand still since the offer was made to Fuentes, and now it seems  the front office is waiting for his response before they make another move. But, the general consensus around here seems to be that a starting pitcher would be much more beneficial to the ball club. (I know this doe not reflect everyone's opinion around here)

Star-divide

So...

 

Poll
Which free agent starting pitcher should the Cardinals sign?
Ben Sheets (Please!!!!)
202 votes
Randy Johnson
59 votes
Derek Lowe
43 votes
Randy Wolf
18 votes
Jon Garland
18 votes
Other (Please list)
15 votes
None, our rotation is set
4 votes

359 votes | Poll has closed

6 recs  |  Comment 215 comments

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Comments

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100% Sheets so far

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 21, 2008 8:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

why no love for Garland?

Jeez, does no one have the holiday spirit?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 21, 2008 8:44 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Bah Humbug!

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 22, 2008 8:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey!

Somebody voted for him! It must have been Santa!

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Dec 22, 2008 11:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That or

Jon Garland is a member of VEB

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 22, 2008 11:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Or both

Jon Garland IS Santa!!!

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Dec 22, 2008 11:43 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Only Troy Glaus is Santa!

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 22, 2008 12:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

very true

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 31, 2008 7:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I voted for Sheets, but....

I would also like to see Lowe, or Wolf or Garland. I think Johnson would be only a one year solution and I want more than that. But, if they were to sign him I would gladly live with that too. Just get a starter… please! :)

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.-Rogers Hornsby

by thegashousegang on Dec 22, 2008 11:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why would you want to see Garland?

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Dec 22, 2008 12:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would too...

As long as it’s more like a 3-year, $18-21 than the 3-year, $30+ that has been talked about. I think that Garland is a guy that would really listen to and benefit from a Dave Duncan. I think that, as a pitch towards contact pitcher, Garland NEEDS someone like Dave Duncan to help him out.

Yes, this past year, he had a bad year, but the previous 7-8 years were numbers I would want to see out of my 3rd or 4th starter in any season, unless I have a $150 million + payroll.

by stlfan on Dec 22, 2008 2:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I can see that

But that’s more like the type of deal that would have been good BEFORE we signed Lohse. We already have one durability type guy in Lohse and I don’t think we need another. Although, a very cheap one year deal would be okay with me. I’d just rather get Sheets or trade for someone young.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Dec 22, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm the "other"

I was actually torn between none and other, only because I don’t like any of the choices listed. However, I do think we need to add another starter, so… guess that leaves “other.”

Although looking around the free agent market, I’d prefer to wait and pick up someone Lohse-ish in late winter/early spring like last year. Give the market time to settle down some.

But honestly, my first preference would be to trade from our OF depth for a starting pitcher. Again, I’d prefer to wait until spring to do this, as it’d give some of our injured players a chance to show what they can bring to the table (Duncan in particular, but also Ankiel, even though I’d prefer to keep him). If healthy and hitting, I think a Duncan and Skip package would fetch a better than average youngish pitcher from somewhere. Or replace one of them with Craig or Freese, depending on who you’re trading with…

by A1R3Z on Dec 21, 2008 11:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I probably should of put

a “trade for SP” option in the poll, my bad. I was just thinking in terms of FA’s because the Cards are using their money in the FA market to go after Fuentes, when IMO that money should be going towards signing another starter.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 22, 2008 8:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not a critique...

I hope I didn’t come off strong there. I wasn’t trying to criticize your post/poll… just wanted to explain my reasoning behind my vote for the other option.

In essence, I totally agree with you in terms of “they shouldn’t be using their money to go after Fuentes” and that they should indeed be using it for starting pitching. I’d just rather wait a while and spend it one someone other than those listed above (maybe Looper in February, for example), or if there’s no one left to our liking, then use our depth in the OF and potentially 3B to work a trade for a starter.

by A1R3Z on Dec 22, 2008 10:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I understand

I knew you weren’t criticizing. And I wouldn’t mind if another Lohse-type deal fell in our lap this offseason either. No worries.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 22, 2008 10:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Angels now out of Tex's bidding war?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3785901&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

Do the Nats and Orioles (!!) even have a prayer?

Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:

by gocards62 on Dec 22, 2008 9:38 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

If you're the Red Sox

Don’t you have to go all out to sign him just to keep him away from the Yankees? If it looks like they have the best offer, I think it would be smart for them to at least match it or raise it a tad just to keep him out of New York.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 22, 2008 11:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I voted for Lowe

If we could get him for 3Y$40M I’d do that in a heartbeat over taking Sheets. Lowe fits the org philosophy as a sinkerballer and doesn’t have a significant injury history like Sheets does.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 22, 2008 11:18 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

+1

His price appears to be coming down, so that would be a plus.

"A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein." - Joe Theismann

by TurdFerguson on Dec 22, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If the Cards go 3 years 40MM for Lowe someone else will go 3years- 42MM

They will be outbid no matter what. I agree that Lowe would be nice, but it’s best not to get your hopes up. This isn’t happening.

www.salukihoops.com

by salukihoops on Dec 30, 2008 9:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We may as well offer

There’s no sense in tossing out every potential option because “they will be outbid no matter what.”

Though I agree that we probably won’t be able to get Lowe. Unfortunately.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Dec 30, 2008 1:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So what?

What if the team that offers the $42M sucks? He might choose to come to St. Louis anyway. Similarly, Brad Penny signed for PEANUTS, because it was one of the only offers out there for him. Perhaps we should have offered him a 1Y$6M deal with incentives that push it to $10M. Maybe then we could have gotten him to come to St. Louis.

Saying not to bid because “we’ll always be outbid”, is akin to saying “why offer Pujols a contract now when we know we’ll be outbid later”? Both statements are shortsighted.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 31, 2008 7:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just guessing

but I think “turning the page but not shutting the door” means the Cards will make offers to players in other areas of need. There is only so much money in the budget, thus, if we sign a FA starting pitcher then there is not enough money left over to also sign Fuentes. So Fuentes has to accept the Cards offer before we sign a starting pitcher or the offer is rescinded.

by jjray on Dec 22, 2008 12:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

With the Angels out of the Tex sweepstakes

I gotta think Fuentes will be signing with his “preferred” team on the west coast.

by mojowo11 on Dec 23, 2008 1:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and the angels

are making him their top priority now, too.

Sure sounds like it’s time to move on.

by DCGreg on Dec 23, 2008 10:05 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I know I'll get lit up for this... But....

Jon Garland would not be the worst signing in the world if Mo waits til February and inks him for 1 year at ~5MM. I believe the guy could put up an ERA in the low 4’s in the NL.

If the Cards wait out the market and add Fuentes for 2 years 16-18MM and Garland for 1 year at under 5MM, they will have a solid group for ’09 without sacrificing the future.

www.salukihoops.com

by salukihoops on Dec 22, 2008 12:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Well sure

A cheap 1 year deal for Garland would be great. I just don’t think it will happen. Most here are against the anticipated multi-year deal he will receive.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Dec 22, 2008 2:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think we'll all be surprised about how many 1 and 2 year deals are given out this offseason

Looper, Garland, Wolf, etc, will probably be forced to take short term deals due to market conditions.

These guys aren’t impact players and when teams wait til mid-late January to sign them, they’re price will come down significantly. In that regard, I understand why the Cards didn’t offer Looper arbitration. If he ends up signing for an AAV of less than 8.5MM it will make complete sense.

www.salukihoops.com

by salukihoops on Dec 22, 2008 2:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

recent news from mlb trade rumors

pirates making no progress extending maholm. might make sense as either a starter and/or loogy

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 23, 2008 9:06 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Garland

was very high on my Christmas wish list………I must confess a weakness for tall right-handers…….surely they can throw harder can’t they?…….sure looks like it

but the VEB community has convinced me……no Garland for Christmas!

plus, I remember how I fell in love with Garrett Stephenson when I first saw him pitch…..for those of you who do not remember him, don’t ask

by Hinkster on Dec 23, 2008 9:08 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

you know, every once in a while you'll hear a name you've done your best to forget

and damnit all to hell if i hadn’t almost completely forgotten about garrett.

i’d like to go back to that happy place. so yes, if anyone doesn’t remember, please don’t ask.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 23, 2008 12:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

huh?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 23, 2008 5:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Randy Johnson

Yeah, we can’t count on him for more than 150 innings at best, but if we can get him for cheap with performance incentives and 1 year, this move could make a lot of sense. My first choice would be trading for a young cost-controlled SP before spring (Hughes, Sonnanstine), but I’ve always been a huge Randy Johnson fan and I think it would be awesome to have this nasty left-handed 6’10" slider-throwing freak on our team. Also, don’t forget the added value of signing a player with an awesome mullet. Perfect battery mate for Jason LaRue?

by aaron_notmiles on Dec 23, 2008 12:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'm definitely jealous

of Larue fu-man…truly impressive, and he kept it all season.

Isn’t Johnson undefeated against the Cubs?

by STLRegalia on Dec 23, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LaFuManRue.

Why don't we get glausy eyed and put back some franklin's....

by punksoulbrutha on Dec 27, 2008 6:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that signing lohse has handicapped this offseason so far

in any other year it would have been a good deal, but because of then economy we could have gotten a much better fa pitcher like lowe or sheets to a long term deal. However, we now have to find a more creative way to improve our rotation and our bullpen with only 15 mil.
-we could sign Johnson or sheets to a short term deal and then trade for a lefty closer like mike gonzolez. They have hole in the OF and we have a lit of outfielders, seems like a perfect fit.

-we could also sign Fuentes or ohman and then trade for a starter, preferably one who is undern teams control and is cheap like sonnastine.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 24, 2008 6:42 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

it is strange

that they did lohse at 4-40 and now see fuentes at 10 and 2 or 3 as unsound. i guess it mostly gives insight into what they really think about pitching in the pipeline.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 25, 2008 10:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pettitte

Could Pettitte be the 2009 version for Lohse? The Yankees offered 10m and looks like they might pull that offer. I would rather have Pettitte than Randy Johnson, and Sheets will be looking to go long on a deal. Sheets’ injury history would worry be about a long term deal.

by nybirdfan on Dec 25, 2008 10:57 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Sigh...

I really hate it when people think Sheets has a so called “Injury history”. He still played almost 200 innings people! Petitte may be cheaper than Sheets, but don’t disqualify Sheets just because the media was overemphasizing his injuries.

by Taskmaster on Dec 25, 2008 1:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Overemphasizing?

The guy missed significant time in 2005, 2006, and 2007 due to injuries. His injury history hasn’t been overemphasized at all — it is a very real concern for anyone that would be willing to give him a long term contract. People are pooh-poohing the Burnett deal because he’s had injury problems, and he’s pitched more innings in each of the last 4 seasons than Sheets has.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 26, 2008 10:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok fine, ill acknowledge the injury risk,

but for what you get, wouldn’t it be worth it? Here’s an example.

Pitcher A: 3.85 strikeouts to one walk
Pitcher B: 2.25 strikeouts to one walk
Pitcher C: 3.71 strikeouts to one walk
Pitcher D: 2.66 strikeouts to one walk

Pitcher A is Ben Sheets
B= A.j. Burnett
C= Johan Santana
D= CC Sabathia

If you have a pitcher on the market who averages fewer walks than arguably the best 3 pitchers in the league, how would you not want to take a chance?

by Taskmaster on Dec 26, 2008 9:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and pray/gamble

he is ok for the playoffs. he gets my vote

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 26, 2008 11:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow..

Didn’t realize his K/BB was that amazing.. SIGN HIM NOW!

by wizardofozzie on Dec 27, 2008 12:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

sign him asap

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2008 10:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

(clears throat)

I would like to be pooh-poohing something… how does one go about doing that!?

It's not what you do, It's who you do...

by pattimagee on Dec 30, 2008 3:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you have cold feet about signing an injury risk pitcher?

apparently a lot of teams do, but that strikeout rate is just too damn tantalizing.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 31, 2008 7:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh wait

the Cardinals don’t like Ks anymore, they want to have everyone hit the ball into the ground and test ol’ Khalil over that at SS

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 31, 2008 7:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

*there

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 31, 2008 7:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he does have an injury history

01-151 1/3
02-216 2/3
03-220 2/3
04-237
05-156 2/3 inner ear infection,torn latissimus dorsi right shoulder, offseason back surgery to correct herniated disc
06-106 shoulder tendinitis, back surgery after 05 season to correct herniated disc
07-141 1/3 torn tendon in right middle finger
08-198 1/3 forearm, groin, tricep, elbow

last year he was able to fight through them. I would love to have Sheets in the rotation, but there is a definite risk involved.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 25, 2008 5:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

reply, reply, reply

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 25, 2008 5:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what's a 150 innings from sheets worth

don’t know, but would be interested to know how many pitchers go over 200 innings in a typical year.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 25, 2008 10:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Generally

If a pitcher makes 30 starts he’ll pitch in the neighborhood of 200 innings. That would be about 6 1/3 innings per start. A front of the line starter could miss 2-3 starts and still make 30 in a season, but a 4 or 5 starter will struggle to make 30 starts if they miss any time at all.

I think chuckb did an analysis of what 150 innings of Burnett would be worth while getting the other 50 innings from a replacement pitcher vs. having 200 innings from someone like Lohse. If memory serves me it came out to favor Burnett, but only slightly. Regardless, would you want to pay premium money for a pitcher that is only going to give you 150 innings a year and possibly less while paying for another pitcher to mop up his extra innings? I wouldn’t, I’d rather pay someone like Derek Lowe the same money over the same years and watch him make 32 starts and throw 220 innings.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 26, 2008 10:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"this years Loshe"

I hate this theory, Bernie was on MLB on Xm and said they’d wait the market out and see what falls into there lap. This apporach is not going to work every year. However I don’t want them to give huge money to someone whose not worth it either..so i guess we will wait and see.. but to think it will play out the same way every year is rediculous

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 25, 2008 10:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

yep

already did that for lohse

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 3, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Randy Johnson one year deal w/ Giants

Giants sign Randy Jonnson to one year deal with no terms. Guess he did want to stay on the west coast and train in AZ.

by ubeddie on Dec 26, 2008 10:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i gotta believe if MO really wanted him he would have gladly come to the STL

we have a hell of a lot better chance of making the playoffs than los gigantes do

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 26, 2008 10:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No he wouldn't have...

Pretty much every article about Johnson mentioned he wanted to stay on the West Coast. Was it all a vast conspiracy to get Mo not to even offer? Or maybe he really did want to stay on the West Coast…

And the Giants were a 4th place team, too, just like the Cardinals. They were 12 out, the Cardinals 11 1/2.

Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro

by DiscoJer on Dec 26, 2008 10:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that's not really a good comparison

The Cubs had about 15 more wins than Los Dodgers, so the cards are clearly a better team.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 26, 2008 10:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Terrible way to compare

Giants were fourth place in a terrible division and Cardinals were barely fourth in a great division. Thats a horrible way to compare the two teams.

Cardinals 2008 — 86-76
Giants 2008 — 72-90

I doubt those two teams are around the same level of competition

by wizardofozzie on Dec 26, 2008 11:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right...we had no chance

All along he said that he was only interested in teams that train in AZ.

Now lets either sign Sheets to a two year deal or trade for Sanchez.

"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe

by fatbellyjefferson on Dec 27, 2008 11:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hoped RJ would sign with the Cards

we could have combined his 150 IP with Carp’s 150. With <4.00 ERA that would be a heckuva #4 starter.

Oh well-Ben Sheets is still out there. . . unless Mo knows that Carp’s good for 200+ IP in ’09.

Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:

by gocards62 on Dec 27, 2008 12:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

dammit!

You have to hand it to Sabean, he knows how to construct a rotation. That might just be the one in baseball now.

Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Johnson = good enough to overcome the Suckiness of Zito? I think so!

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 27, 2008 12:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sanchez

Someone on ESPN (Buster Olney possibly, not sure…I haven’t had any coffee yet) was saying the Giants might shop Sanchez for a bat. He’s a big lefty, lots of K’s and walks, doesn’t pitch to contact- Dunc and Larussa would love him! Can we get the Chris Duncan for a Giants pitcher trade rumor going again?

What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray

by Tupelo on Dec 27, 2008 11:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wait he doesn't pitch to contact so TLR & Dunk would love him?

that makes no sense

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 27, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i posted on here

about a week ago that sanchez for ankiel had been discussed…what about lowry? he has to be on the outs too?

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 27, 2008 8:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LaDunc loves Groundball pitchers

Not strikeout pitchers. Seems like he wouldn’t work well but who knows?

by wizardofozzie on Dec 27, 2008 8:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hell

what if Zito improves? that rotation looks nasty

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2008 10:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

8M. Son of a!

by astrostl on Dec 27, 2008 12:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well

our “patience” approach sure is succeeding.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 27, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Signing Ben Sheets

What kind of contract would it take to get him?

by wizardofozzie on Dec 27, 2008 12:25 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

3yrs 2 billion dollars!

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 27, 2008 12:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LET'S DO IT!! However,

To answer myself, I looked it up and according to mlb trade rumors, the Yanks’ were prepared to offer him 2 yr 26 mil.

by wizardofozzie on Dec 27, 2008 12:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that sounds about right

If we could get him for 2yrs 26mil that would be a great pick up. I know there’s a risk, but thats why he’s not being offered somewhere between Sabathia and Burnett money.

"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe

by fatbellyjefferson on Dec 27, 2008 11:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, that Happy Joe

Rick Ankiel likes their ice cream, too.

Miles in '08

by Zoop on Dec 27, 2008 3:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

take it. take it. take it.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 27, 2008 4:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that's a steal.

considering our Lohse and Pineiro deals, we better jump at that.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 27, 2008 4:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It looks like we don't have to start drinking heavily

Willy Taveras just signed with the Reds for two years. Good move Walt!

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 27, 2008 8:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good work Walt...

giving Dusty a leadoff guy that won’t clog up the bases…

Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro (on another team, thank you Mo!)

by DiscoJer on Dec 28, 2008 2:22 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A real Corey Patterson type

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 30, 2008 5:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

WTH is the Game Plan?

So, with Mo’s/Card’s announced and slowly evolving approch to the off-season, i.e. “being aggressive”, “being low-hanging fruit pickers” and “being patient”, are we left to conclude that the only players on the market we had any sincere interest in from the get go were Lohse, Miller, Rhodes and Fuentes? There’s no one else worthy of any offer? Or are we playing the unrealistic stealth capture game, i.e. there will be no word on an offer unless it is accepted – which seems untenable as it really isn’t in a FA’s interest not to let the entire market know there’s offer out and if someone else is interested they need to up the ante? Or, are we just waiting until the “market develops” and we can fford a bargain, i.e. someone like Brad Penny happens to be drivin through town, runs out of gas, loses his wallet, falls down, bumps his head on a rock and develops amnesia (accept or the aability to pitch) and we sign him dirt cheap?

I understand the desire to let the “market develop” and see what’s left, i.e. Lohse#1 08, but isn’t thre any pitcher out there other than Brian Fuentes who the Cards want to the extent they may be worried he won’t be lyign around in April 09? I guess not. But if the original intent was to have “dry powder” b/c the market will present good opportunities, the Lohse #2 signing makes no sense. That 4/40 would buy probably buy a lot more now than Kyle Lohse, e.g. Lowe and Sheets less years (which would be better). It looks like the FO doesn’t really have a strategy, which perhaps is how good GM’s operate, but omehing tells me our GM doesn’t really have a handle on the market by offering either a) too much for too little; or b) not nearly enough to create serious interest.

Other mysteries remain. TL

by BKKCard on Dec 27, 2008 10:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

So apparently we have made overtures to Brady Penny according to MLBTR

I didnt bother posting the link bc it doesnt say anymore than that. OK i guess. Im just really confused right now. It looks more and more like we wont sign Fuentes, which Im good with. But were in the hell are we going to put that money? The IF is set now that Kennedy is manning the keystone. Fine, I can deal with that. The OF is set unless we make a trade that is really off the radar. Im good with that too. Rick, Ludwick and Colby sounds good to me with Barton, Mather, Skip combo filling in. After Fuentes there really isnt a closer to be had outside of a trade – again it wouild have to be off the radar. So the biggest remaing question would be the rotation. Innings eater? check in Lohse. Front end starter? Check in Waino. Back end guy? Wellemeyer. Craptastic 5th starter? Pineiro. And thats about all we can count on. Carpenter is a huge question mark so it seems…. WE NEED A GOOD STARTER.

Now if there were only some low hanging fruit that would fit our needs and have some upside potential. Like a power arm with front end potential that we could sign to a 2 or 3 year deal. Hmmmmm. And you know it would be even better to take a front line SP from a divisional competitor to weaken their staff. Let’s see…Oswalt – nope. Harden, Dempster, Z, nope. Oh yeah – Ben Sheets. He’s a power arm with grit and stuff. He probably wants about 5 or 6 years. Oh no? 2 years 30 million? Well thats just crazy. Why in the hell has this not happened yet? You eat a little this year but next year it gets better bc Pineiro’s 8 million and Glaus’ 12 or so million come off the books and can be replaced by cheap talent that already in the pipeline. So just get him here and if Carp comes back strong we have a chance to win a championship. I mean crap. Just get it done.

by rlgosnell on Dec 27, 2008 11:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

oh dang it

I should’ve posted my comments on penny on this thread. Forgot about the catch all. Sorry, mods.

Hyperventilating prospect geek
Future Redbirds

by erik on Dec 28, 2008 12:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Totally agree--get Ben Sheets.

But the Cards are either shy about spending $$ on Sheets, or else they’re positively rolling the dice that Carp will be back 100%, or both.

Signing Sheets also means that K-Mac stays in the pen, and so does Pinata.

Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:

by gocards62 on Dec 28, 2008 10:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ludwick for Sanchez

I’d love to see this discussed. Since sabean signed the big unit he says he is open to trading for a bat. He specifically said he wouldn’t trade for anyone one year from free agency.

Here’s my question: is Jonathan Sanchez worth Ryan Ludwick? Could we pull that off? I’d love to see it discussed thoroughly.

jp

by jpmorgan5150 on Dec 28, 2008 3:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I like this idea...

and I think the Giants would do this deal.

Then..are you ready for this…sign Manny.

Give him the 2 year deal the Dodgers pulled back…apparently thats the best he’s gonna get unless he wants to lose in DC. His salary won’t be too hard to swallow next year with Glaus and Piniero coming off the books.

Mather can replace Ankiel full time in 2010 and then Jones will be ready to play fulltime when Manny’s gone in 2011. His power will be replace by Wallace in 2011 as well.

This would be ‘agressive’, and definitely give Tony that bat to protect Albert that he’s been screaming for.

"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe

by fatbellyjefferson on Dec 28, 2008 4:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would like this idea

if only Manny could play a passable LF. He cannot, therefore I do not. More to the point, it would scare the hell out of me to see a Manny and Duncan corner OF next season(and you just KNOW it would happen with Tony’s Crazy Lineup Toy. That would just be too much of a strain on the CFers. It would wear the poor guys out.

After saying everything in the above paragraph,I do not agree on the Ludwick/Sanchez request. I can’t wait for opening day when we can stop fake trading Ludwick.

Someone must have pee’d in my Cheerios today.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 28, 2008 5:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not even close

Sanchez might be worth schumaker (probably not) but he is certainly not worth ludwick. Even if ludwick regresses to an .860 OPS (about a win better than the average NL LF in 2008), sanchez would have to outperform his extremely optimistic zips projection (4.18 ERA) by a full win (IE, 3.73 ERA) and pitch 200 innings to be more valuable than ludwick, and that’s assuming Ludwick is only average in LF defensively.

Brad Thompson will almost certainly be within one win of what sanchez actually does next season, and he has a decent chance of being better.

they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums

by SleepyCA on Dec 28, 2008 6:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

except we're trading ludwick

who is headed to arbitration, in a position the Cards have a surplus, is likely to regress and entering the downward slope of the aging curve for someone who is the opposite of those things.

If he hits his ZiPS projection, you’re probably looking at a 3 WAR pitcher over 200 IP compared to ludwick who is likely something more like a 4 WAR position player. And I’ll bet 100 internet dollars that Thompson doesn’t go over 1 WAR next year.

by azruavatar on Dec 28, 2008 6:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would rather trade Ankiel than Luddy

He is gonna be a free agent sooner and Luddy is a righty which is lacking in our outfield. Ankiel for Sanchez would be fair. Although Sanchez seems like the exact same pitcher as Oliver Perez who we could get without trading anyone, so I wouldn’t want to give any real value to get him.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2008 7:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ankiel for sanchez probably isn't fair

but Sabean said he won’t take anyone who will be a free agent after next year.

by azruavatar on Dec 28, 2008 9:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sanchez' 2009 zips projection

(I said 4.18 above, but it’s actually 4.28) is right at the 2008 NL average (4.30). Anyway, he’s never been within .67 ERA points of that, even as a reliever, and he’s also headed for arbitration after next season. And his tRA* last year was 4.53, which was better than he’s been in the past but not exactly exciting.

I’ll keep my cost-controlled 4-5 WAR left fielder. Sanchez might break out and surprise me, but I’ll be shocked if he gets close to his zips.

they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums

by SleepyCA on Dec 28, 2008 9:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but his ERA is garnered in San Fran

with that wonderful fielding situation behind him.

by tom s. on Dec 29, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sanchez BABIP

What makes Sanchez a good risk is that a BABIP that bad (.333) is simply too bad to be sustainable on any level. To put it the most simply, excluding things like Babe Ruth’s pitching, the BABIP of non-pitchers pitching historically hovers around .335 as a group. It’s just hard to buy that a pitcher who throws 90 MPH and strikes out a batter an inning is as hittable as a bunch of outfielders dragooned into garbage time action.

Even in batting practice, BABIP seems to be in the .340-.350 range (one of my ongoing projects is charting batting practice hit ball speeds and location and estimating rough probabilities against a ZR chart).

--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com

by D.Szymborski on Dec 29, 2008 7:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We do not have a surplus of what Ryan Ludwick provides

Only a surplus of guys who play his position.

by TheBirds on Dec 29, 2008 2:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ryan Ludwick provides 4 WAR

we have a surplus of 2-3WAR outfielders. Right-handedness is not something to be overly concerned about.

by azruavatar on Dec 29, 2008 6:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

5+ WAR in 2008

and Rick Ankiel is the only other OF I’d feel comfortable counting on being even a 3 WAR OF in 2009. We have a lot of guys who could do that, but it’s no sure thing for any of them.

they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums

by SleepyCA on Dec 30, 2008 3:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

5+ WAR is not something we should project for him though.

And when you have a bunch of players capable of doing something the odds are one will pan out.

Keeping him because of handedness (I’m assuming this is what TheBirds is referring to) makes little sense to me.

by azruavatar on Dec 30, 2008 3:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Injury History

We also need to keep in mind that Ludwick has had a very tough go of if throughout his career on the injury front. As he ages, this becomes all the more concerning.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 30, 2008 5:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The hot stove is cold as ice

at least for our Cards. I realize we are in the middle of the holidays…but I don’t think I have seen a Cardinals hot stove “rumor” for weeks. We have a few holes to fill…I hope things pick up after New Year’s…

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 29, 2008 4:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

totally off topic, but did you see the Smokey & The Bandit marathon on Sluth TV over the weekend?

man i love that movie & boy do i love that car!

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 29, 2008 6:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I am starting to get the feeling that we aren't going to add a decent SP

They might just let throw McClellan and Franklin in the starting rotation during ST and see if they can stick.

Not the best idea but, If they spent the savings on a two year deal for Fuentes I could see it working.

www.salukihoops.com

by salukihoops on Dec 30, 2008 9:51 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

That would be awful...

Simultaneously killing our bullpen while putting a metaphorical band-aid on the festering gunshot wound that is our starting rotation.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Dec 30, 2008 1:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not that bad

McClellan had previously been groomed as a starter. Undoubtedly, TLR would have to be more protective McClellan than he was with Wagonmaker during his first season post-‘pen. But, McClellan has a repertoire that would translate well to starting and he has earned the trust of TLR and Dunc. Oh, and he’s cheap. A replacement for the bullpen could be had for a lower asking price than a starter. It could work a la Wagonmaker or Looper, which, frankly, at McClellan’s 2009 salary, Bloop-esque production wouldn’t be all bad.

Franklin, however, is a horrible idea. I can’t wait until 2010. No Franklin in the ’pen and no Kennedy in outfield infield. Of couse, we all must prepare ourselves for Rick Ankiel with something other than the birds on bat emblazened across his chest.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 30, 2008 5:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Groomed, maybe...

But 78 innings was the most he had thrown as a pitcher since 2004, and he clearly was breaking down by the end of the season.

He might have the pitches, but I doubt he has the stamina to start.

Wainwright, pitched 182 innings as a starter in 2005, before his 2006 role as a reliever.

While I guess you could say it worked for Looper, he actually hasn’t really been as effective as a starter as he has a reliever.

Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro (on another team, thank you Mo!)

by DiscoJer on Dec 30, 2008 6:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

“he actually hasn’t really been as effective as a starter as he has a reliever.”

I strongly disagree with this. He’s been worth 4 WAR over the last two seasons. That’s easily as effective as he was prior to joining the cardinals in his last two seasons with the mets and more valuable than his relief season with the Cards.

by azruavatar on Dec 30, 2008 8:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What would be the expected WAR

for a league average starter and a league average setup man? Couldn’t a player outperform his role and still contribute fewer WAR?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 1, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Short version

I use 5.00 and 5.50 for reliever and starter ERA replacement level. Most people use a lower reliever replacement level but I find anything less than 5 to be difficult to swallow.

As far as league average, you could use the league average tRA over at statcorner to then figure out their WAR values. 4.46 for relievers and 4.77 for starters on an RA scale. I don’t remember the conversion to ERA but it’s different so be careful. After that you get into a question of what to do with reliever leveraging which I’m very undecided about.

As to the latter question, I suppose if there was a significant change in the run environment that that could happen but I’m not sure what the point of the question is.

by azruavatar on Jan 1, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The point of the question

was that since it seems intuitive to me that a starter would be able to generate more WAR than a setup man, couldn’t a setup man outperform the field and still contribute fewer WAR than a starter? Maybe I am not fully grasping the concept. I know the WAR for setup men is calculated vs. other setup men, but it just seems to me that a starter could contribute more wins than a setup guy. I don’t know whether that clarifies anything or not.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jan 4, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yes

It wasn’t clear that the setup man was outperforming the field in you initial statement. That said, it’s still hard (even with leverage) for relievers to be worth more than 2 WAR in general. Starters have an easier time because they’re throwing more innings against a lower baseline.

by azruavatar on Jan 4, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not at all against letting KMac

Compete for a starting job. He has the pitches and some potential, but his stamina may not be there. He could possibly be a good starting option. I’m against not acquiring an additional (or 2) starer(s) and then plugging both McClellan and Franklin into the rotation. If we get another starter and give KMac a shot, that’s fine by me. Counting on one or both of them to be successful starters is a bad idea though because not only could our rotation suffer, but our bullpen would as well.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Dec 30, 2008 11:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sign, in order

sheets
ohman
springer

just to make me feel better, of course. what else are they going to do with all that cash they saved on miles?

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 1, 2009 10:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sheets, sure

But what would we do with Ohman and Springer, assuming the bullpen has 7 guys?

Perez
Motte
Kinney
McClellan
Franklin
Thompson
Miller

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 1, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I am glad you made that comment

I have been advocating the same thing (getting another lefty and Springer), but you make a great point. I would think that if either of those is signed, it would require a trade of Franklin . That way you get the bullpen space and some payroll relief. I suppose if another lefty was signed there could be a competition between Miller and ?LHRP.

Of course this is just my thinking, I would bet if we did sign another reliever Miller would make the team and one of the other young relievers would be sent back to AAA. The same would probably apply if Springer was re-signed.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 1, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I meant to say see if "one" of them can stick

The other would go back to the bullpen.

www.salukihoops.com

by salukihoops on Dec 30, 2008 3:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Oh and while we're throwing out crazy ideas for the Starting Rotation

I wouldn’t mind seeing the Cardinals give a cheap 1 year deal to Brandon Lyon and turn him into a starter.

Seriously. It could work.

www.salukihoops.com

by salukihoops on Dec 30, 2008 3:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gotcha

Next time, try the reply button ;)

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Dec 30, 2008 11:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sign Looper

07 was his first year as a starter. In 08 his numbers improved significantly. He also increased his innings pitched. I still don’t understand why he was not offered arbitration. Yes, his salary would have increased but not offering only made sense if the team made an effort to re-sign him at a more acceptable salary. Maybe they did, but now the Brewers and Orioles are interested in him. Mainly though, outside of Lowe or maybe Perez, Looper may be better than the rest.Though I still say the only way to significant improvement is through a trade.

victim of the sixties

by victim of the sixties on Dec 30, 2008 7:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Pedro Martinez/Manny Ramirez

Let’s take a flyer on both these guys. Pedro may be done, but I’m willing to bet if he can keep his legs healthy he has 2-3 more years of solid performance left in him. I definitely think he could do a nice job filling out a rotation at a not unreasonable price. If I had to choose Looper or Martinez, think I’d take upside.

Manny is a different kettle of fish. His problem is that he lays down when he is unhappy so as long as you can negotiate a contract that has club option to walk away for bad behavior, I’d give him three years and let him and Albert wreak havoc.

Package up the flotsam in the OF for a closer and a 2B and I think we have a nice team through the end of Albert’s contract for a price that doesn’t break the bank. If you need to unload a salary — we could always trade Glaus and/or Piniero and let one of the guys on the depth chart fill in until Wallace is ready.

Just win

by The Duke on Dec 30, 2008 10:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'll bite on Pedro... but not Manny

I would take Pedro for 2MM guaranteed and make him earn the rest with incentives for Innings pitched

www.salukihoops.com

by salukihoops on Dec 31, 2008 12:33 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pedro is my hero......

The little engine that could. He probably had the best 10 year run of any pitcher alive.

His arm is shot, but he’s still a savvy pitcher. He may rebound a bit this season-his father was ill and died last season from brain cancer. It took it’s toll on him, as did the leg injury.

I don’t know if he’s a good fit for the Cardinals, but I hope he’s pitching somewhere. I’d like to see him go out on a high note.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 31, 2008 7:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pedro!

Is probably my all-time favorite player that never wore the Birds on the Bat. Though he played for my least favorite team in Boston, he got out before the Sox really started testing my nerves. Crazy competitive, generally a fun guy and quite a large dose of La Saleté on his pitches.

Also as you touched on already, his prime rivals any of the greatest pitchers. Arguably better than Koufax, better than Maddux, Clemens, Gibby etc. His numbers are absolutely mind-boggling. I mean, he had twice as many strikeouts as hits allowed one season. How does that even happen? Career ERA+ of 154- +6 better than anyone. Ever. He’s the greatest/best pitcher I’ll ever see pitch, and IMO he’s even a bit underrated. His dominance is unfathomable.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

by lunchboxbomb on Jan 4, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Most Amazing Part

he did it all while standing 5’11" and weighing 170 Pounds.

I'm Glad I'm not an Astros Fan

by Dave Barry on Jan 4, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Aaron Miles to the Cubs

YOU BROKE MY HEART, MILES! Time to change my fucking sig! WAAAAAAAAAAH

Miles in '08

by Zoop on Dec 31, 2008 12:50 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

For the record,

It’s for 2 years and $4.9 million.

I guess this means Mark DeRosa is going elsewhere.

by mojowo11 on Dec 31, 2008 1:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Correct mojowo11

Derosa goes here. For those of you not interested in clicking on links…he got traded to the Tribe for minor league pitchers Jeff Stevens, Chris Archer, and John Gaub.

by stlfan on Dec 31, 2008 2:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

quantity over quality?

none of those have impressed, except Stevens, and he’s a 24 year-old relief pitcher who struggled in AAA.

looks like the Tribe made out pretty well here. of course, the Cubs just wanted to clear salary to sign Bradley and make another run at Peavy. but still… DeRosa was a helluva player last season.

by kindred on Dec 31, 2008 2:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

indeed

by sky kalkman’s calculations, derosa was over 2 full wins better than miles last year. Of course, it was something of a career year for both of them, but I think Miles will fall further.

This move, by itself, largely negates the value of adding Peavy or Bradley. Marshall→peavy is at most 2 wins, and might be less than one, and since the only man in the bullpen with options as far as I can tell is the best pitcher in the bullpen (samardzia), they will lose talent by moving marshall to the pen unless they trade/release one of the others.

Fukudome → bradley in RF will also be in the 1-2 win range, and fukudome → CF will be a large downgrade from the edmonds/johnson platoon last year…

they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums

by SleepyCA on Dec 31, 2008 3:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

so good news huh?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 31, 2008 3:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yup

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 31, 2008 5:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

however...

… it hurts us as well. Miles’ replacement will likely be a downgrade, and if it means more playing time for Kennedy — and his Wizard-like defensive regresses without his offense improving — then we might be back into “black hole” territory.

as for the Cubs, if they get another pitcher he’d replace Marquis, not Marshall.

by kindred on Dec 31, 2008 5:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

at least we won't have the one-two blackhole

of Kennedy and Miles… unless Greene doesn’t start hitting again

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 31, 2008 7:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i don't know about "downgrade"

if the replacement is brendan ryan or tyler greene, there is at least a ton of potential offensive upside and superior defense.

The replacement will likely be a downgrade from Miles’ 2008 performance, but Miles 2009 will almost certainly be a downgrade there as well.

they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums

by SleepyCA on Dec 31, 2008 7:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sig changed.

Screw you, Aaron Miles. "Hope you tear your ACL, jackass!!" - Carl

by Zoop on Jan 1, 2009 1:20 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Angels sign Fuentes

Link

Two year contract with an option for the third year. No word yet on the financials.

by mojowo11 on Dec 31, 2008 1:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good

Now can we pleeeaaasse let Perez/Motte/Kinney become our closer and stop dicking around and sign Ben Sheets?

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 31, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   5 recs

YES!

and I second all those remarks! Especially the dicking around and sign Sheets part. In fact, I second, third, and fourth that remark.

Also, rec’d

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 31, 2008 1:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think we should dick around a little longer...

Lowe’s first offer was around 3 years 36 million. If he gets anything close to that it could drive down the price for Sheets.

We just need to wait a little longer……

by TheBirds on Dec 31, 2008 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And wait for someone else to swoop in and get him

No thanks. The Yanks offered him 2yr/28mil. Can it hurt us to offer him 2yr/30mil? I don’t think so.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 31, 2008 2:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Who knows if they are even interested in Sheets?

They haven’t said they were. If Sheets is going to sign for a 2yr/30mil deal, I’d expect him to go back to the Brewers. They could easily give him that, and they could sure use him.

One thing I wonder about Sheets is if he would even come to the NL Central if he’s not with the Brewers. He was always a Brewer, he was a Brewer in good standing, he even has a business in Milwaukee. I know it sounds stupid, he’s a very competitive guy, but I could see all kinds of reasons he may not want to face his old teammates-often-right out of the gate. Petitte went back to the Yankees for that reason; and it wouldn’t surprise me if it factored into Wood picking Cleveland.

I’m just thinking if he doesn’t go back to Milwaukee, he’s going to follow his old pitching coach to Texas. Of course, the Cardinals should still talk to him and see what he wants. It’s foolish to not at least ask. In the end, I’d be very surprised if he ended up in St. Louis.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 31, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

who the heck else are they going to sign?

unless they are cutting payroll by quite a bit.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 31, 2008 5:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, now that is the question.....

I guess we won’t know until they actually sign someone.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 31, 2008 5:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

any other suggestions?

I don’t see too many second basemen or closers left…

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 31, 2008 7:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

btw

I’d be just as happy with signing Derek Lowe, and I don’t know all the other teams’ players well enough to prescribe any trades

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 31, 2008 7:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why shouldn't they be interested in Ben Sheets?

If the FO isn’t looking into Sheets, then who are they looking at?

Lowe? I wouldn’t mind that at all.
Garland? I pray to GOB that isn’t the case.

Bottom line is that Sheets is the best starting pitcher out on the market and SP is our biggest gaping hole. If we made an attractive offer to Sheets, I don’t see why he couldn’t muster up that competitive spirit you speak of to face the Brewers immediately. JED, Marquis, and most recently Miles can prove that players are willing to play against their former teams immediately with little problems.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 31, 2008 7:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and the brewers deserve it

for signing suppan and (soon) looper. bums.

they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums

by SleepyCA on Dec 31, 2008 7:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I never said he couldn't do it or wouldn't do it.

It is all mere speculation on my part. I was just throwing out there that he might not want to do it.

Ben Sheets is the best pitcher left on the market; I would love it if the Cardinals signed him-but I haven’t read or heard that they were even looking at him. I think it’s going to take more than a 2 year offer to get him no matter where he signs.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 31, 2008 9:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather us

get Lowe over Sheets, if they are similar deals. I’d take Lowe on a 3/45 over Sheets on a 2/30.

That said, it ain’t gonna happen. Mo, get us some Sheets!

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 1, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sheets will not sign a 2 year deal at this point.

I advocate waiting over being unrealistic.

by TheBirds on Dec 31, 2008 3:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he won't?

dangit, I guess I just had my hopes up

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 31, 2008 7:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

now you know!

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 31, 2008 7:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and knowing is half the battle

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2008 8:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He will if that is the longest offer he gets

Look at Lohse last offseason. Thought he had locked up a spot with the Mets, then the bottom drops out and he’s scrambling around in ST looking for a job.

Sheets’ injury at the end of the season probably scared alot of teams off. Whereas, you have a guy like Burnett, who stayed off the DL for the first time in 10 seasons and gets a big deal with the Yanks. If Sheets had stayed healthy all year, he would have probably had a better chance of landing a long term deal like Burnett. But only time will tell now on him. I wouldn’t mind giving him a two year deal with an option.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 31, 2008 8:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, Look at Lohse

The Cards were patient last offseason and were rewarded by having Lohse fall in their lap late in spring training.

I don’t know if we’ll get Sheets, but if we wait I guarantee we’ll get a very good bargain on a starting pitching. If the Cards want to make a competitive offer and sign Sheets soon, fine, but a 2 year deal is not a competitive offer yet.

by TheBirds on Dec 31, 2008 9:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that we got a good deal in '08

does not mean we’ll get a good deal in ’09.

I’d rather overpay by $2-3M/year and get sheets than get Garland at a discount. We got VERY lucky with lohse the first time around, and I hope Mo doesn’t expectt hat to be the norm.

they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums

by SleepyCA on Dec 31, 2008 9:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't expect it to be the norm

But i find this years FA starting pitching excess will lead to a lot of good deals.

And I really think this upcoming season will depend entirely on whether or not Carp is healthy.

by TheBirds on Dec 31, 2008 9:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ohh, and I don't think we should wait till Spring Training starts to sign a SP

I agree we got lucky last year, can’t afford to take that chance again.

by TheBirds on Dec 31, 2008 9:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL, that miles deal is too funny.

I really hope he doesn’t become a Cardinal killer.

by TheBirds on Dec 31, 2008 1:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

whille they are at it

They can go ahead and sign Wells. The Baron is a FA, right?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 31, 2008 1:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Whats next with the MI

So, does MO trust the MI situation we have right now? We’ve got Greene at SS, coming off of his worst professional season. We’ve got Kennedy, who wanted out at 2B, and to back them up we have Ryan, Tyler Greene, and Thurston. I don’t really trust those guys to be the backups for a couple of guys who are question marks and I doubt that MO does too. So, who gets added to the mix? There are still several utility candidates left: Chris Burke, Alex Cora, Alex Cintron, Craig Counsell, Damion Easley, Jerry Hairston, Rich Aurilia, Pablo Ozuna, Juan Uribe, an Ty Wigginton.

Quite the extensive list of mediocrity. Each has his strengths, and each his weaknesses. A few of these guys may still be considered starter material and will thus cost more than what the Cubs paid for Miles. Personally, I wouldn’t mind seeing Burke or Cora brought in.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jan 1, 2009 1:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'd like to see Counsell

At least he would give us a good OBP and good defense. His career UZR ratings at 2B, 3B and SS are 14.9, 20.2, 7.4 and his career OBP is .343 despite a miserable .255 batting average. Last year he was a 1.3 win player, which is worth about 6 million, despite a .226 batting average and 1 home run. If he could luck into a good year in terms of BABIP and raise his batting average a little he could end up being and excellent utility infielder for less than 2 mil.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 1, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel for Clay Buchholz now!

then take the (modest) savings and get Sheets.

Is this possible?

by guayzimi on Jan 2, 2009 1:39 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I would doubt it

I don’t see Ankiel supplanting Bay, Ellsbury, Drew , or Ortiz in Boston this season. Or Boston trading several years of Clay for one of Ankiel.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 2, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't Boston...

have to assume that at least one of Lowell, Ortiz, and Drew will be down much, if not most, of the time? Losing any one of those guys would open a spot for Ankiel. Plus isn’t Ankiel an upgrade from Ellsbury? Offensively yes, defensively no, but I’m not sure Ankiel is that bad…

by guayzimi on Jan 2, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Very interesting idea..

You have to consider how many injuries Lowell and Ortiz seem to get during the year. I’m sure that Ankiel could be very movable in the outfield, just in case Drew or Bay gets injured. They also have a fairly good rotation without him with

SP1 Daisuke Matsuzaka
SP2 Josh Beckett
SP3 Jon Lester
SP4 Tim Wakefield
SP5 Justin Masterson

The only problem with this kind of deal is happening is Wakefield. He’s 42, and that age factor could ruin any type of deal.

by Taskmaster on Jan 2, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Because of the Lowell situation

They might take Freese in a deal. They are also still looking for a catcher. Freese + Anderson = Buckholz.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 2, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm

Im not sure something like that would work. I think they would rather give up Lowell for that package rather than Buchholz. Don’t get me wrong, i would like the trade, but I doubt it could happen. Don’t forget, they were planning to move Youkilis to 3rd anyway if they happened to get Mark Teixiera. They might be open to a 1b as well(Not Pujols…).

by Taskmaster on Jan 2, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the red sox are looking for a left-handed 1B?

No way! We have an extra!

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 4, 2009 12:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I doubt anything like this will happen

But what about Boggs/Pineiro+Freese/Craig+Anderson for him. That would give them a future 3B and a C, plus a potential rotation stopgap in case Wakefield or someone else gets hurt. We’d have to eat some of Pineiro’s salary I imagine, but it could work.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 2, 2009 9:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What about Rasmus

They want a young potential star, we get a young potential star pitcher, plus clear up an outfield spot and can leave ankiel in center

by eburn40oz on Jan 3, 2009 3:05 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Trading Rasmus to the Red Sox would be the equivelant of the Sox trading Hanely to the Marlins

They got Josh Beckett, but the Marlins still came out the winners of the deal by a lot. We could probably get Bucholz or Bowden without giving away Colby.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 3, 2009 3:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't say they won by a lot.

HanRam is a special player and I’m sure the Red Sox still wish they had him. But, Beckett helped them win WS. Given the choice between having a great young SS and a ring, I think any team would take the ring.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Jan 3, 2009 9:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We will never know that for sure

Starting pitching is more important than hitting. Especially in the postseason.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Jan 3, 2009 8:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

New Twist on the Peavy front? Moorad to buy Padres?

BtB is a good thing to check every morning.
For a direct link

Moorad said Friday he heads a “small but significant” group of investors that has an exclusive right to complete the specifics of negotiations with Padres owner John Moores. Moorad said he hopes the transaction can be completed in the next three months.

Hopefully this takes Peavy off the market

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 3, 2009 12:05 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Am I the only one annoyed with the rotoworld sidebar's little snip about Carp as closer?

Because I think it’s pretty clear that Carpenter will probably be better as a closer than either Motte or Perez unless he’s not healthy enough to be pitching in the bigs anyway. And I like bringing him back as a reliever so as to not tax his arm. I wish that Tony hadn’t tried to make him start in 2008.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 3, 2009 12:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

LaRussa said Carp likely to close

And DeWitt said they would spend some money on a big name if it would help the team win, so lets go out and get Sheets and Manny then trade an outfielder for a startong pitcher and get Pinerio out fo the rotation and go win us a World Series

by eburn40oz on Jan 3, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

interesting!

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 3, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's also a great SP..

When healthy. We don’t have many of those. I agree using him as a closer to get him ready to come back and start is a good move, but to permanently use him as a closer I feel like is a bad idea.

by wizardofozzie on Jan 3, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with that, and that is the proper argument against Carp in the pen

but for this one year, or at least for a few months, let him just throw in the ’pen, and let him get healthy. It solves the closer problem and the Carp rehab problem at the same time.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 3, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe it's just me

But as I see it, without Carp in the rotation, postseason hopes are slim. I just expect too much regression from the likes of Lohse, Wellemeyer, and Ludwick with the additional question marks of Greene and Kennedy for the team to have any margin of error when it comes to maximizing players value’s.

I'm Glad I'm not an Astros Fan

by Dave Barry on Jan 3, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather maximize Carp's Chance of bieng healthy in 2010

than be worrying about a marginal playoff chance in 2009.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 3, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and if he can help out along the way, great

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 3, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see how our

roster construction gives more a a chance in 2010 than 2009. Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t advocate anything that would slow carpenters career any more, I just don’t see that using him in the bullpen will guarantee his health for the future.

I'm Glad I'm not an Astros Fan

by Dave Barry on Jan 3, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It wouldn't surprise me if Carpenter never pitches again

He hasn’t been healthy in 2 years. . . my hopes aren’t high.

by azruavatar on Jan 3, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm inclined to agree with you

The injury risk thing has to be taken seriously, if nothing else, and that’s all the more reason to say that using him in the rotation in 2009 is a bad idea.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 3, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Is it just me,

or does anyone else think that we should offer Lowe just a bit more than the Mets’ 3/$36 offer? We could do 3/$40 and he may accept, or even 2/$30. It would be sad if somebody else landed him for so little if we didn’t even bite.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 3, 2009 3:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't think we'd get him but....

It couldn’t hurt to up the ante a little bit on the Mets. What’s the worst that could happen?

by TheBirds on Jan 3, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

the worst thing it would do is up his price for whoever actually lands him, which means less money for them to use to chase FA.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jan 3, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It makes other

pitchers more expensive.

by spants on Jan 3, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

plan b

offer sheets a bit more than the mets offered lowe and you might get him, you won’t get lowe

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 3, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why

would we offer Sheets more than they offered Lowe? I’d be very happy with Sheets, but not if we could get Lowe instead.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on Jan 3, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

BTW, does anyone get the feeling Miles will get released

this year by the cubs, and then picked up by the Cards midseason?

I’m calling it now.

by TheBirds on Jan 3, 2009 7:50 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

sure

and then he can take the cards 2 year 4+ million offer midstream

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Jan 3, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why aren't we pushing to get John Smoltz

He was great last year, albeit in an injury shortened year, and the 3 years previous to that he was as durable as anyone in the game. This guy is one of the best pitchers in the history of the game and he if he is healthy there is no way we should sign him. He has less of an injury risk than Sheets and he is better and he would cost less than him.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 3, 2009 9:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

This keeps coming up.

Smoltz isn’t available until mid-season. We need someone ASAP.

by spants on Jan 4, 2009 1:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's just the problem of doing that

I mean, make Mo read VEB more! Giving him all these great ideas for Buckholz, Sonnanstine, Sanchez, etc. We will get someone big, i can feel it.

by Taskmaster on Jan 4, 2009 3:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

TJ Surgery...

…out until midyear at best, and then who knows what he’ll provide once he’s back. Plus, I doubt he goes anywhere but ATL if he decides to keep playing at all, which is certainly a question mark.

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 4, 2009 5:33 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

straight from the horses mouths, two interviews done Fri afternoon on 1380 in the STL

by Tony & Dewitt. i have no idea where to put there so i’m putting them here

Tony


Dewitt

they cover everything & are pretty long. so get in a comfy chair with your favorite beverage & enjoy.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Jan 4, 2009 5:00 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

cool

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 4, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

good stuff, thanks

too bad bernie is such a terrible radio host… TLR starts talking at 7 minutes, for those who don’t want to hear bernie’s inane mustard stain blabber.

I like how TLR makes it clear that Mo and Dewitt are running the show and he’s just the uniform guy on the field, and that they just ask his opinion rather than letting him call the shots. he seems pretty sincere when he says he understands and supports their decisions. That should put to rest a lot of the speculation.

Wow, and he knows Hoffpauir’s name.

still cannot accept that Rachael was Chani.

by SleepyCA on Jan 4, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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