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The Young and the Restless

Today’ll be a little bit of a mish-mash as there are a lot of little things to discuss and no big things to discuss. First of all, yesterday, the Cards signed a middling Japanese left-hander to a minor-league contract. It’s not very noteworthy; in fact, it’s probably noteworthy in that the Cards signed Maekawa rather than Kawakami, Uehara, or even Takashi Saito. If it turns out he can get lefties out, maybe he has a role. If he can’t – no harm done (and please, no drunk-driving jokes!). Erik over at future redbirds has more on him here.

The link at the top of the post is to a Joe Strauss article from Wednesday where he discusses the fact that the Cards are considering making an offer to former Japanese-leaguer and Dodger Takashi Saito and current Japanese league starters Kenshin Kawakami and Koji Uehara. Saito’s been sensational for the Dodgers for 2 2/3 seasons before getting hurt last summer and being left off the postseason roster. Saito was recently non-tendered by the Dodgers due to concerns about his elbow and an experimental procedure used to used to attempt to patch it together.

Kawakami and Uehara are starting pitchers who are first-time free agents here in the U.S. Both pitchers are 33 years young. The link above has Straussian scouting reports on the two pitchers. Erik’s got some video (as Dan pointed out yesterday) of the two pitchers and likes Uehara a little better than Kawakami. Strauss seems to think that Duncan would like Kawakami a little better. Fuentes or no Fuentes, IMO it cannot be underscored how important it is to get into the bidding for these two pitchers. I sincerely doubt that either is the savior or the difference between the Cards making the playoffs or not, but the Cards have fallen woefully behind other clubs in competing for Japanese talent (So Taguchi notwithstanding). The bottom line is that there are a lot of good players in other parts of the world and the Cards need to be seen as players in the game – potential landing spots for this talent. Presently only a handful of teams are really seen as being part of this market and the Cards need to be players. The only way that’s going to happen is if we begin to actively compete for the talent. If we simply decide we have no chance to sign the players and never call the agents or make offers, we will forever be seen as non-competitors in the market. The Cards need to be seen by Japanese players as possible landing spots along w/ the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers, Mariners and Mets and the only way to do that is to get in there and start making offers. Let’s start w/ these guys – even if the likelihood that we sign either is minute.

(As an aside, will somebody please tell me WTF is wrong with that godawful p-d website that closes the window every time I try to access a page!!!!!! Do you guys actually want us to read anything you print or not? What a horrendous site!)

Whew!!! Unbelievably I finally got one to work! Derrick Goold is smack-dab in the middle (in fact, he’s on the other side of the hill) in his trek through the Cards top 30 prospects and yesterday’s thread discusses a little known Cards’ prospect named Roberto De La Cruz. He is a 3B who has yet to actually play a game in the Cards’ system. They hope to have him play rookie ball this summer. Why should we care? B/c, as Goold points out, only 2 current minor leaguers in the Cards’ system have received larger signing bonuses than De La Cruz – Brett Wallace and Pete Kozma – the Cards’ two most recent 1st round selections. He was signed for more money than uber-prospect Colby Rasmus. Granted, a couple of years have passed since Rasmus signed and there’s some inflation involved, but it’s safe to assume that the Cards think pretty highly of De La Cruz. He just turned 17 years old. That article is definitely worth a read (as Goold’s stuff almost always is).

Contrast that w/ the Rick Hummel Q&A which I thought might be halfway interesting since its title referred to Rasmus and the current OF backlog. I suppose it was that. When asked a question about acquiring Jon Garland, Hummel remarked that "Garland’s not a bad call." Ugh! Yes he is Rick. Volumes have been written (or typed) on what a bad call Garland would be. Let’s hope the phones don’t work should Mo decide to make that call. Then, when asked about a potential Ankiel for Ian Kennedy trade, Hummel commented that we would "hate to trade a fairly proven product in Ankiel for an unproven one in Kennedy." Comments like that make my brain hurt. Apparently, trading an OF – our deepest position – who is 1 year away from free agency for a young, cost-controlled SP -- one of our shallowest positions -- who is 5 or 6 years away from free agency is a bad idea b/c one player is "fairly proven" and the other is "unproven." You know, Rick – at one time Albert Pujols was unproven also. (In fact, Ankiel was, too – twice!!!!!) You know how one gets to be "proven"? He plays!!!!!! I’m not necessarily arguing the merits of trading for Ian Kennedy. I’m simply arguing against the notion of disqualifying somebody b/c he is "unproven." It’s a terrible way to run a franchise – particularly a mid-market franchise – b/c it can’t survive by signing the best free agents every year. Stuff like that almost makes me glad that the website is so profoundly dysfunctional!!

So, back to the Fuentes drama. Mo has been pulling the petals off his Fuentes-flower for a few days and has heard "He loves me not" more times than he prefers and is almost down to the stem and stamen. If Mo does decide to move on, the plan (apparently) is to pursue a starting pitcher (whew!). The question then becomes – well, I guess there are two:

  1. How good does the starter have to be in order to be more valuable to the team than Fuentes would be? And…
  2. Which starter(s) can we get for the (roughly) $10M the team was willing to spend on Fuentes?

Fuentes is probably, at most, a 2 win upgrade over someone like Russ Springer or whatever other middle reliever would be brought in to help bolster the pen if Fuentes chooses to sign w/ someone else. Therefore, the Cards would have to add at least 2 wins to the rotation in order to get the same amount of benefit that they would get from Fuentes. If we look at the free agent starters currently on the market and see what they brought to their respective teams last year, we see that Sheets, Lowe, Johnson, and Pettitte all were worth more than 20 runs above replacement (2 WAR). Considering the fact that the new starter would be replacing some Boggs/Pineiro hybrid (if/when Carp returns, he would undoubtedly take Pineiro’s turn in the rotation), it’s fair to say that the new starter would be replacing a replacement-level player. Therefore, anyone worth more than 2 WAR would be worth more than Fuentes to the team.

Could any of them be had for Fuentes’ $10M? Johnson could, I’m certain, and maybe Pettitte. It’s difficult to say but I’d still say the likelihood of him signing w/ the Cards is about the same as the Cards giving me $10M to pitch for them next season. Sheets and Lowe will cost more than $10M. Could we afford either if we decide to go w/ someone like Barden, Thurston, or Ryan in the utility IF role rather than Miles and trade Ankiel? Looking at the roster matrix, that saves us another $4.5 M or so. Now Sheets or Lowe is affordable. Of course, if we trade Ankiel, can’t we trade him for a young pitcher thus eliminating the need to sign someone like Lowe or Sheets?

One thing I haven’t yet seen addressed (though perhaps I missed it) is the question about Mo’s Fuentes strategy. Presently his strategy seems to be that – if he signs Fuentes, he trades Ankiel for a young starter. If he doesn’t, he trades Ankiel for a reliever and signs a free agent starter. Why is it a given that he has to sign someone to a $10M contract? Those lesser starters on the free agent list should be non-options, regardless of whether or not Fuentes is signed. The return won’t be high enough to justify the cost. If we don’t sign Fuentes, can’t we sign Ohman, Beimel, or Springer and trade Ankiel for a young starter? Sure, I’d like to have Sheets, Johnson, or maybe even Lowe but how likely is it that that will happen?

As I said, the Wolf/Oliver Perez/Looper/Garland crowd should be considered non-options – Fuentes or no Fuentes. If the best SPs then can’t be had, Mo should trade Ankiel for a young starter and get 5-6 years of value from him and ignore the fans who complain about DeWitt’s frugality. Just b/c Garland costs more doesn’t make him a better option. In fact, he’d be much worse.

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Nice article Chuck

Ankiel for Kennedy (although one can argue whether the Cards deserve a sweetener on the deal) makes sense from budget standpoint. We desperately need young cost controlled starting pitchers going forward. I guess my thought on the topic goes to the Cards defining inhouse what sort of team they are—one rebuilding or one taking their shot? If rebuilding, acquiring a young starter makes sense for future benefit. If they are ready to take their shot, then the team really needs another top of the rotation starter. That means Sheets or Lowe or maybe Johnson. The big unit is the cheapest of those three but I remember reading somewhere that he is only interested in teams that do spring training in Arizona (so he can be home for ST). Should we bundle all our remaining cash together and go for Sheets or Lowe? If we are building a playoff team, then that would be my vote. If we are building for the future, then using Ankiel to acquire a young starter makes the most sense. If we acquired Sheets, I’d package Ankiel with other prospects to try and get Kelly Johnson from Atlanta (or find another team with a major league ready MI prospect who needs help in the OF). Middle infield is as big of a need a starting pitching.

My fear is that TLR will talk the team out of trading Ankiel at all. Garland will be our 5th starter and we’ll pay $18 mill (over 2 years) for a FA closer losing our first round draft pick in the process. We’ll be a good team with little chance for the postseason.

by jjray on Dec 20, 2008 8:50 AM EST reply actions  

your question

I suspect that if you ask the stl braintrust, “Are you re-building or taking a shot at the playoffs?” Their answer would ALWAYS be…………..“Yes”.

I suspect this regime’s priorities will change little from year to year

1) Build the farm system with cost controlled talent – 24/7
2) Aim to win the World Series – 24/7
3) Except in the case of franchise players, avoid contracts beyond 2 years or $10M annual
4) Spend remaining budget money wisely

This regime seems to reflect common sense midwestern values and for that we can be thankful. We’re not the Yankees, Royals or Pirates and for that we can say grace.

I understand the context of your question (more one of degrees other than black/white choice) but I think 2006 eliminated any internal doubters as to the above strategy and wisdom of always rebuilding and always taking a shot.

And I believe its a pretty solid strategy

by Hinkster on Dec 20, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

a little of both

Yes, I agree that we are always rebuilding and always taking our shot per team policy. That’s why I am afraid that Ankiel will not be traded away for a prospect to be replaced by Rasmus. This is a classic and smart move by a rebuilding team but a team taking it’s shot clings to vets (if one can consider Ankiel to be veteran outfielder … Rasmus probably has more experience at the position than Ank). TLR is a “win now” coach. Rebuilding is not in his DNA.

by jjray on Dec 20, 2008 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I really dislike

the use of monikers such as proven, winner, veteran, professional or gritty. but apparently there is a contingent of writers and baseball execs that have been educated at the Joe Morgan school of scouting.

I'm Glad I'm not an Astros Fan

by Dave Barry on Dec 20, 2008 8:53 AM EST reply actions  

Proven vs. Unproven

This whole argument seems, to me at least, like a cop-out anytime a baseball writer, manager, or GM uses it. I mean, did Joe Mather “prove” himself this year? How much production does a player have to give in order to be considered “proven”? Is there a quota? Can a player “prove” himself in ST? And if he does “prove” himself, then how do we know that success will transfer to the regular season? I know I’m rambling, but this really annoys me. Anytime I hear someone use this argument I just tend to disregard his or her’s opinion as legitimate, for that situation, because he or she obviously can’t find a legitimate angle to argue from. Sorry Mr. Hummel, but in this case you are WRONG!

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Dec 20, 2008 9:18 AM EST reply actions  

I will attempt to very briefly defend a couple of comments of Hummel's in an Q&A which did make

me cringe a bit in several places.

I would draw a distinction between the Hummel comment re: Ian Kennedy and the CardsTalk posters who want us to sign Manny because Colby Rasmus is unproven. Ian Kennedy has struggled quite a bit in the opportunities he’s been given. Now, yes, he hasn’t gotten a ton of opportunities, but I think his comments are bit more defensible in the context of a player who’s been brought up and struggled, rather than one who’s never been brought up.

But otherwise, yeah, I agree. He gave pretty short shrift to the idea of taking Ian Kennedy and seemed to overvalue one year of Rick.

Not to be lost in this discussion is the economics of getting a young pitcher. If we get even one young starter (either through trade or an internal option like KMac or Todd) in a big league rotation, we have will have HUGE monetary options going forward to 2010 and 2011. If we should get TWO young pitchers into the rotation, watch out. We could sign any FA we wanted. And that kind of payroll flexibility would allow us to land Pujols long term.

by tom s. on Dec 20, 2008 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

One advantage to signing Japanese pitchers

is it will be much easier to not communicate with them.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 20, 2008 9:28 AM EST reply actions   4 recs

you're really on a roll Chuck

I think dealing Ankiel for young pitching makes a whole lot of sense. I just don’t see him back with the Cardinals next year. And as you pointed out, starting pitching is where the system needs the biggest upgrade. If we could get Ian Kennedy plus another pitching prospect that is deal that should be made.

by nmstar on Dec 20, 2008 9:54 AM EST reply actions  

Rick Hummel

While I love and appreciate what Rick Hummel has done throughout his career. he really lost me when i heard him say on 590kfns one morning that he thought the most important stat for a pitcher was win-loss record. He also stated that he thought it was an undervalued stat. They were discussing Cy Young voting at the time. Sorry for no link. But I remember it distinctly and was taken aback. This was before I even got into any kind of sabre stats.

by The Butcher on Dec 20, 2008 10:08 AM EST reply actions  

I think they should make a senior baseball league...

Sort of like the golf tour has. All the old players who don’t want to retire, but aren’t good enough for the majors can play there. And reporters like Hummel who are also past their prime can follow that one.

Also good way to rid baseball of Dusty Baker

Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro

by DiscoJer on Dec 21, 2008 6:36 AM EST up reply actions  

to an extent...

I also think won-loss record is overlooked. I don’t think that it should be one of the top stats you look at, but if the guy just wins ballgames, then what’s wrong with that? Isn’t that the ultimate goal?

My dad always quoted Bob Gibson as saying in an interview something along the lines of, “Well, they scored 2 runs tonight, but we scored 1, so I didn’t do my job.”

Would you rather:

have a guy on your team with a 2.00 FIP and a 9.00 K/G and a 3:1 K:BB but goes 12-12
or
have a guy on your team with a 4.00 FIP and a 4.50 K/G and a 3:2 K:BB but goes 20-4?

I mean…I’d rather take the 20-4 that season because that means we win 8 more games. It will suck watching him “play down” to his competition, but if he just knows how to win games, that’s a good thing.

Over the long haul, the first guy does probably win more games throughout his career…you’d think with those #s at least…but it’d be hard to argue against wanting a 20 game winner, even if his peripherals are half as good.

by stlfan on Dec 21, 2008 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd like to see

a guy with a 2.00 FIP lose 12 games in a season.

But seriously, I’ll take the guy who gives my team the better chance to win 20 out his 24 decisions, and that will always be player #1.

by lunchboxbomb on Dec 21, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah...

Like I said, though…I agree with Hummel to an extent. I still think it’d be hard to argue against someone that can just win games.

by stlfan on Dec 21, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

If you have a guy with a 2.00 FIP and 9.00 K/G and he ends up going 12-12, you have some issues with your offense. You might need to score some more runs.

I highly doubt that with the offense provided in the first example that you would even have the pitcher in your second example on the same staff.

In any case, I’ll take Pitcher A because he’s likely to get more run support next season and will generally put up the same peripheral stats…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 22, 2008 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm pretty excited about De La Cruz

We’re rolling out our rankings next week at FR, not to be a major spoiler but he doesn’t quite make the list, but I have a feeling he’ll be pretty high on it next year. It’s not just that he was signed for a high bonus, he also was the most impressive player in the instructional leagues according to luhnow and vuch, both offensively and defensively, and apparently he was a little banged up.

He’s pretty polished for a 17 year old, apparently, and they are thinking of starting him as high as Batavia.

Hyperventilating prospect geek @ Future Redbirds.net

by erik on Dec 20, 2008 10:14 AM EST reply actions  

It's really encouraging to me

that the Cardinals invested somewhat heavily in international players this past year. As chuck mentioned, there is a lot of talent around the world that we have yet to tap in to. I hope we continue to aggressive in Latin America as well as establish ourselves as players for talent in other parts of the world.

by iwannarock24 on Dec 20, 2008 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

will you start Monday?

if so, I’ll give a shout-out in tomorow morning’s thread.

by chuckb on Dec 20, 2008 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

we will be

and thnx for the shout. We get a lot of traffic from VEB every day.

Hyperventilating prospect geek @ Future Redbirds.net

by erik on Dec 20, 2008 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Except for the ones they ban over there, for no known reason.

Got a serious bone to pick with the Roarke guy, but let it pass, let’s talk baseball.

by StanTheManFan on Dec 20, 2008 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Japanese Players

is it possible to sign young Japanese players or is our only option to obtain veteran guys at market or above? If that is the only option then I wouldn’t spend much in the way of resources on that market. We will never outbid the big market teams for those players.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 20, 2008 11:56 AM EST reply actions  

Young guys have to go through the posting system

and it’s really expensive and really risky to get anyone worth anything that way.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Dec 20, 2008 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Totally agree...

on the Hummel Q&A. In the prospect countdown the other day DGoold had an interesting link to Chris O’Leary’s site on the analysis of Lance Lynn. Turns out Chris not only loves Lynn, but his only worry for Jess Todd is he might have to throw his slider too much. I started looking around the site and O’Leary is actually a Cardinals fan and has hitting analyses of Albert (a ton) and Rick Ankiel. Definitely worth checking out!

by RayMonD! on Dec 20, 2008 12:30 PM EST reply actions  

I don't...

1. Ian Kennedy is unproven; there’s a serious question after his struggles whether he’ll turn out to be a major league-quality starter. Using a trade asset like Ankiel would be an overpayment. Kennedy has performed badly at the major league level, and he doesn’t solve any problems the Cardinals have with their current rotation. St. Louis has plenty of young arms in the system who are a year or two away; adding another one by giving up a guy who, while has health problems, has performed well at the major league level doesn’t make sense.

2. The problem most people have with Garland is what contract people expect him to get. Given how slow the free agent market has gone and what level of free agent Garland has, I really doubt he’s going to get that kind of deal. Garland is a durable workhorse who is a pitch-to-contact guy, which falls right into Duncan’s philosophy. But lord knows, we don’t want any of that in the rotation.

by Forsch31 on Dec 20, 2008 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

pitching to contact

is ok if the pitcher has at least the chance of making a batter miss one of his pitches once in a while. Garland does not offer that chance. His only upside is that he may save your bullpen some innings

by The Butcher on Dec 20, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course Garland is a pitch to contact guy

as he has no other option. In fact, he had the poorest K/9 of any AL starter in 2008. He also was the fourth worst in surrendering line drives. He would have to be extremely cheap to be worth the gamble and since he made $12M in ‘08 I wouldn’t bet on that happening.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 20, 2008 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Just say no to Ian Kennedy.

The current coaching staff just won’t be able to deal with him. Dare I say they won’t want to deal with him. His short amount of time in the bigs was disasterous. I’m not ready to write him off, but this team at this time is not the one to put a struggling young pitcher on. There is no way it ends well for the Cards or Kennedy, just none.

Say no to John Garland too. Sure, he’d be a Duncan Roboticon Ground Ball Pitcher, a nice back end of the rotation innings eater, but at the cost of 10, 11, 12, or 13 million per year for 2, 3, or 4 years? No thanks.

I’m thinking they are already planning to put Kyle McClellan into the starting rotation. I think he could do fine as a starter, but I do wonder about his health. He pitched 67 innings in relief in 2008, 50 innings all in relief in 2007, 0 innings in 2006-injured, 0 innings in 2005-injured. I just wonder how he’ll hold up in 2009 and beyond if they ramp up his innings so drastically. If they like him as a starter, and they want him around long term they need to proceed with caution IMO.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 20, 2008 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Oops....correcting myself

McClellan did pitch a little in 2005 and 2006 seasons-54 innings and 6 innings. Still, I think they have to consider durability an issue over a full season with him……

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 20, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Backup plan for McClellan

breaking down later in the season could be the availability of Carpenter.

by jjray on Dec 20, 2008 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

While I do wonder if he can handle it

Pitching 67 relief innings at 100% effort, a lot of the times on back to back days, is a lot different than throwing 150 innings once every five days at 75-80% so I don’t think it will be that much more, if any, stress on his arm.

Life is better when you have a Big Unit!

by nomar34 on Dec 20, 2008 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a bunch of mularkey....
The current coaching staff just won’t be able to deal with him. Dare I say they won’t want to deal with him. His short amount of time in the bigs was disasterous. I’m not ready to write him off, but this team at this time is not the one to put a struggling young pitcher on. There is no way it ends well for the Cards or Kennedy, just none.

Why is it that people who were big fans of Anthony Reyes can’t seem to see the forest for the trees? Seriously, Reyes got more than a fair shake in St. Louis and simply didn’t produce. Period. Could we have gotten more out of him via trade? Possibly, but I’m still not sold that he’s going to be a good major league starter. He’s had some success, and he’s had some pretty fantastic failure as well.

As far as the coaching staff goes, Matt Morris didn’t have much trouble with this coaching staff, Dan Haren and Adam Wainwright didn’t have too many problems with this coaching staff either. Are they set in their ways? Yes, but their ways have worked pretty damn well for the past three decades, which is longer than any single current player has played. Unless you know Anthony Reyes personally and can vouch for his character, I strongly disagree with blaming the coaching staff for all of his problems. I’m sure there’s plenty of blame to go around.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 20, 2008 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

“Reyes got more than a fair shake in St. Louis and simply didn’t produce.”

I disagree with this in that the organization tried to change (late in the game) how Reyes approached pitching. That said, this has happened once and I don’t think there’s a very good reason to typecast every young starter as the next Anthony Reyes.

by azruavatar on Dec 20, 2008 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I can agree on that

I don’t think that there’s any way to know if he was approached early or late in his minor league career though. The pitching coaches at the A, AA, and AAA level may have tried to change his approach earlier — we simply don’t have enough facts to make that assumption, imo.

That said, this has happened once and I don’t think there’s a very good reason to typecast every young starter as the next Anthony Reyes.

Completely agree…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 22, 2008 9:45 AM EST up reply actions  

could you try to respond to people's comments with something other than

that’s crap, that’s mularkey, etc.?

It would help. Disagree but don’t dismiss other people. Jill is a smart woman and deserves some respect.

by tom s. on Dec 20, 2008 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Well thank you, tom s.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 21, 2008 1:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Jill also repeatedly ties Anthony Reyes to "every other young starter" the team could acquire...

Which is, as I said, mularkey. I can window-dress it if you like tom, but the simple fact is that there are plenty of examples of young pitchers succeeding under TLR and DD, so to say that because ONE young guy failed EVERY young guy will fail is ridiculous.

She also is a big fan of Anthony Reyes, so I don’t think that her comments regarding the situation are objective. There are plenty of starters who dominate in the minor leagues and can’t ever hack it in the majors, he’s not the only one this has ever happened to.

Personally, I think that Duncan was correct in trying to change his approach, because it wasn’t going to work for him in the long term. Very few pitchers can get away with throwing up in a zone without getting rocked every third time out when they don’t have their good stuff. Maybe he should have been approached about it earlier, that’s worth discussing, but he may have been approached about in 2004, 2005, and 2006, and just decided not to listen — you don’t know the whole situation, so to pass out blame is presumptuous.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 22, 2008 9:43 AM EST up reply actions  

You have to admit

that there are A LOT of similarities between Ian Kennedy and Anthony Reyes.

by spants on Dec 22, 2008 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

There are...

But you could also say that there are a lot of similarities between Anthony Reyes and any other USC pitcher as well, guys like Brian Bannister, Mark Prior, Matt Chico, and Barry Zito, to name a few. They have similar numbers but I think that Kennedy has the potential to be a much better pitcher because he has better control and better stuff than Reyes did, even though he doesn’t throw quite as hard.

It’s also really tough to gauge a player mentally, but I think that Kennedy would probably be more open to suggestion than Anthony was, but that’s pure speculation.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 23, 2008 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Did you read my post?

Or just the headline? I could have used abrasive language, but I didn’t.

I simply said you can’t get emotionally attached to a certain pitcher and then compare his situation with every other young pitcher out there that has struggled in a brief stint in the majors. There are simply too many factors to deal with to just assume that no young pitcher is going to succeed on the Cardinals because of La Russa and Duncan. It is “mularkey” to think such a thing could be true.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 23, 2008 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

I didn't argue with the premise of your post. The point is not whether it's right

or not.

I just said that you shouldn’t call other people’s opinions “crap” or “malarkey.”

Showing somebody why they’re wrong is much more effective, ultimately, than telling them.

I never said you shouldn’t disagree or try hard to prove your point. But saying “that’s crap” or “that’s malarkey” doesn’t do anything but belittle the person who you’re responding to.

by tom s. on Dec 23, 2008 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

St Louis has plenty of young arms in the system who are a year or two away

Right, because lord knows you don’t want too many good young cost controlled pitchers. You couldn’t do anything with them but use them in the rotation or bullpen and spend the money saved elsewhere or trade them for a good young player from a position that we have a shortage in, say MIF, that would pointless wouldn’t it?

Life is better when you have a Big Unit!

by nomar34 on Dec 20, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Dan Haren

stunk it up his first time up in the bigs too and he’s become a pretty good pitcher. Not every guy is freaking awesome out of the gate when they first get called up, some guys need to adjust to the new league they are playing in.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 20, 2008 5:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep.

And some people never really get to adjust because they’re being shuffled back and forth like a pawn. Not all big league chances are created equally.

by spants on Dec 20, 2008 7:49 PM EST up reply actions  

so whats the problem with

signing a free agent sp and trading for someone like an ian kennedy. you can never have enough starting pitching and if all goes well(especially injury-wise) we could even move wellemeyer into the bullpen or even kennedy like a wainwright situation.

also I was curious as to what it would reasonably take to get phil hughes. would rasmus get hughes kennedy and cano? that would solidify the rotation for a while i would presume. just curious.

by huts04 on Dec 20, 2008 2:28 PM EST reply actions  

saw this at mlbtr

ksdk says the cardinals are “moving out of the brian fuentes sweepstakes”

i hope so.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Dec 20, 2008 2:45 PM EST reply actions  

they need to

as long as fuentes believes he always has the cards offer on the table as a worst case scenario, he won’t do anything except wait for a better offer. if they want him at their price, they need to send him the fish or cut bait notice.

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 20, 2008 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Anyway

It’s pretty clear that Fuentes is just waiting for Tex to sign. If he goes out east, Fuentes is going to sign with his “preferred” team, the Angels.

That means we have to wait around for Tex to sign, too. I say **** that. Fuentes is probably not landing here anyway. Move on.

by mojowo11 on Dec 21, 2008 1:06 AM EST up reply actions  

MLB trade rumors

suggests the Jays may be willing to trade BJ Ryan. He’d basically be making Fuentes money, and we might be able to get the Jays to chip in. I know he’s getting up there in age, but he’s been pretty consistent with the exception of his one season under the knife. I’d rather have him as a closer than Fuentes. Plus, we’ve worked with J.P. before, so maybe that would help.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 20, 2008 3:12 PM EST reply actions  

The fact that Fuentes is making Fuentes money

Is the reason i don’t want him. The fact that we have to trade for a guy so he can make Fuentes money is even worse. I doubt a 1st round pick would be worth more than the guys with send to Toronto.

This is terrible, why do we need a guy who’s salary is inflated by a BS statistic. Saves mean very little to me, they are like wins for a starting pitcher. Just get a decent LHRP and it will be a much better bang for the buck.

by TheBirds on Dec 20, 2008 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Ryan is not a "saves" statistic guy.

If anything, those numbers are deflated because he’s played for the Orioles and Blue Jays (two non-winning clubs). Haha, actually, if anything, Ryan is one of the last players you can promote because of save totals.

Ryan has been consistently better in his career than Fuentes. Since 2003, he hasn’t had an ERA over 3.40. He typically strikes out more guys than he lets on base. And he lets up about 3-4 HRs per year. I know those are all randomly selected stats, but you’re grossly undervaluing him as a player. And I think you missed my point that I’d like us to try and work it so that the Jays chip in. As of now, it’d be a 3/30mil deal. Get them to pay for some of that, and he’s a heck of a closer to add to the team.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 20, 2008 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Stamen?

I thought I was back in 6th grade science there for a minute…I would he all for giving you the $10M to pitch for us chuck, we don’t lose a draft pick for signing type A bloggers do we? Afterall that is you in all that us you in your avatar, right?

In all seriousness this was great read with a lot of different information. I am all for Ank for Ian even though he is alittle fly bally for this teams taste but for 5 years under team control it would be a bargin. I completely agree about the Japanese imports as well, we need to be in that market. If we don’t trade for a SP then I am all for the Unit, as my sig suggests, he might not want to come here but it doesn’t hurt to throw money his way and see if he bites he is the best short term option by far…If not RJ then I’ll take Sheets with Lowe a close 3rd but I don’t think you can get Lowe very cheap for 3 years or less and I am always scared of anything more with pitchers, esp older ones!!!

Life is better when you have a Big Unit!

by nomar34 on Dec 20, 2008 4:00 PM EST reply actions  

+1

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 20, 2008 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

there's no reason that the cards shouldn't be in the market for

Japanese players…
wondering if Mo has said that he will trade Ankiel, or is that hypothetical? might as well put Ank/Schu depending on what team we’re trading with.
I do think that trading from the OF glut for starting pitching is the best strategy, but there are so many ways that could go I don’t even know where to begin.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 20, 2008 4:08 PM EST reply actions  

Such a terrible year to have a LH outfielder for trade though.

I don’t know many teams w/ excess SP that need a 1 year rental on Ankiel.

by TheBirds on Dec 20, 2008 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Ankiel rumors

per MLB Live XM supposedly was mentioned in talks with SF for johnathen sanchez, and unkown to ATL.

I don’t know a whole lot about sanchez…

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 20, 2008 5:00 PM EST reply actions  

Sanchez

is a yes, please!

Life is better when you have a Big Unit!

by nomar34 on Dec 20, 2008 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

i dont know anything about him other than he's young

but if your the giants..young pitcher probably cheap..for a rental?

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 20, 2008 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

well, their GM is still

Sabean, so youneverknow

Hyperventilating prospect geek @ Future Redbirds.net

by erik on Dec 20, 2008 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

it was just

reported that it was discussed

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 20, 2008 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Other than strikeouts

I don’t see what the big deal is with Sanchez. Looks like his numbers are pretty comparable with Pineiro. Except that Sanchez gives up a lot more walks but can get more K’s. He is younger so I guess that’s a plus.

So trade Ankiel for this guy??? That would be a regretable trade on our end I’m afraid. I mean really… are the Cards becomming so cheap that they will just decide to get rid of Rick for an average pitcher (that can get some Ks) in his contract year so they don’t have to deal with re-signing him? But who knows maybe this could work in our favor. I just hope Rasmus is ready for the big show since everyone wants to see Ankiel shipped out of town for whatever starter we can get.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 21, 2008 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Even if Sanchez were Pineiro+Strikeouts

(without looking at the numbers to see if that were true), 1 year of Rick Ankiel < until 2012 of arbitration for Sanchez.

Even if Sanchez were a league average pitcher, he’d be a cost efficient fourth starter. That gives you the ability to take risks on #1-level pitchers.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 21, 2008 1:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't disagree with you

But who says the Cards can’t re-sign Ankiel? I know Boras is his agent, but maybe Rick wants to stay in St. Louis…he may not…but maybe he does. Everything I hear from many people is this we have to trade Rick because he will be a free agent after this season. And my answer to that is …yeah but that doesn’t mean he can’t re-sign with the Cardinals.

Maybe Mo should try to get a feel from Rick on if he wants to play for the Cardianls for the long haul and see if Rick wants to stay and maybe they can work on signing a fair deal with him during the season. This has been done before I don’t see why Boras wouldn’t listen to offers.

I guess for me it comes down to ….are the Cardinals going to turn into the Pirates and Royals of the world and just trade away guys because they are going to become a free agents and just won’t offer contracts to players because of this? Is the Cardinals going to become a “farm system” to the likes of the Yankees and Red Sox now? Do we even have any hope of re-signing Pujols? Not trying to go on a rant and I agree HL that if Rick is for sure to leave anyways that we might as well get something for him but I just feel that they should try and see if Rick would re-sign with the Cards first (for a fair offer) before they just trade him for any pitcher they can get.
I don’t know …the Cardinals origanization is just confusing me with their direction the past couple of years. I just don’t know what direction they are going in to tell the truth, and I’m not sure I am liking it (right now)….I really hope I see a clearer picture soon, I really do.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 21, 2008 4:21 AM EST up reply actions  

It's not that the Cardinals can't sign Rick Ankiel

it’s that for the long term they probably don’t need to given their outfield depth.

by azruavatar on Dec 21, 2008 9:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Again

this is another deal I would personally transport both players in either direction.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 21, 2008 1:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Not really a fan of Japanese Players

It just seems when you factor in the price you pay just to BID for the players service plus their contract it doesn’t seem worth it. It seems like to me 90% of the players that come from Japan aren’t worth what they cost. Now Latin America seems like a better investment.

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 20, 2008 5:05 PM EST reply actions  

You don't bid for the players mentioned

They are FA’s. But I agree that most of them aren’t worth the posting AND the huge contracts.

Life is better when you have a Big Unit!

by nomar34 on Dec 20, 2008 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

not all japanese players have a posting fee

just the ones that are still under contract with their japanese teams…free agents are free agents

by VolsnCards5 on Dec 20, 2008 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Why sign anyone?

i this Chuck… and mostly everyone else for that matter has it right. Someone is gonna wiggle free at the trade deadline… why spend the money now? If I’m Mo I say screw Fuentes and go w Perez as the closer and Motte as the set-up man. I then go w a trade that has been mentioned here before which is trading Ankiel to TB for Sonnenstein and Zobrist. Zobrist become the new Miles and RH platoon guy for Kennedy at 2nd. You plug Sonnenstein into the rotation, move Skip to left and start Rasmus in center… then you have a team that looks a little something like this:

Rotation:
Waino
Sonnenstein
Loshe
Welly
Pineiro/Carp — if Carp is ready like they say you have a very stout rotation

Lineup:
Skip LF
Rasmus CF
Pujols 1B
Ludwick RF
Glaus 3B
Greene SS
Yadi C
Pitcher
Kennedy/Zobrist 2B

This leaves us with maximum salary flexibility should someone (like Peavy?) shake free at the trade deadline.

by BigMac545 on Dec 20, 2008 7:37 PM EST reply actions  

we should be so lucky

if mo could do this, i would immediately ask him for his suggestions for next week’s powerball lottery

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 20, 2008 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

TB won't make that deal now

they traded Edwin Jackson for Matt Joyce — finding a LH hitter to play RF and opening a spot for David Price. They’ve got no reason to make that trade now.

by chuckb on Dec 20, 2008 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

They probably would never have made it anyway

They’re not idiots, they wouldn’t trade two cost-controlled young players (including a very nice SP) for one year of Ankiel.

by mojowo11 on Dec 21, 2008 1:17 AM EST up reply actions  

+1 on the stltoday website

been having the same problem Chuck and I posted a question here about it a few days ago and was told it was my internet explorer but I dont have problems anywhere else. Today I tried going through the stltoday home page then clicking their link to the cards page and that actually seemed to let me stay on and click all the articles i wanted to read. Don’t understand why it should’ve made a difference but for what its worth, I just started using Safari instead of internet explorer too and it seems to work better. Didn’t even know I had Safari on my laptop. Go figure.

by Walking Underwear on Dec 20, 2008 8:36 PM EST reply actions  

Daniel Cabrera

Cabrera signs a 1 yr deal with the Nationals… the perfect player for that team. So much for the potential reclamation project.

by Czechguardsman on Dec 20, 2008 8:43 PM EST reply actions  

I thought the perfect player for the nats was a $20M/yr firstbaseman.

/sarcasm.

I hope it works out for them. It’s hard not to be sympathetic with both the Nats and Cabrera’s struggles over the last several years. I

by tom s. on Dec 20, 2008 8:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Nats fans and Cards fans better be praying up and down that the Nats dont sign Teixeria.

Because if Teixiera signs with the Nats that will create a domino effect to where the big-market teams agressively take all the remaining Type As and Bs off the table. Still, however, I think that there is no way Tex will sign with Washington.

by Czechguardsman on Dec 21, 2008 6:53 AM EST up reply actions  

why would that create a domino effect

that would lead the big market teams to take all the remaining As and Bs? It isn’t like all these teams are going to sign any players regardless of need. Plus, can’t the Nats be considered a big market team? One of the larges metro populations in the country, great new ballpark, partial ownership of a regional sports network that generates millions of dollars for the team. That sounds like big market to me.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 21, 2008 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

He's from Baltimore though

And Baltimore is out of the bidding, so if he wants to play near home, that’s the best place for him to sign.

They would have a pretty damn good offense with Teixeira in the mix. Zimmerman is due for a comeback season, Dukes is really good when he’s healthy, and they have some decent young players to start building a team around a stud 1B.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Dec 22, 2008 9:50 AM EST up reply actions  

interesting to know

the $$$ involved

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 20, 2008 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, what do the Nationals have to lose?

They have had some success getting bad pitchers to the level of mediocrity. If they do it with Cabrera it would be quite an accomplishment.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Dec 21, 2008 1:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Perfect trade partner?

Why is no one talking about the Minnesota Twins? They are looking for a third baseman and have a lot of young starting pitchers. The Cards have Glaus at 3rd with THREE prospects ready to replace him when his contract expires after this season, is this not a good fit?

by sstabs on Dec 21, 2008 1:31 AM EST reply actions  

Twins & 3rd Baseman

The Twins also do not like big contracts on their books, so trading Glaus to them probably is not an option. However, trading one of the potential successors to Glaus may be a plausible scenario.

by stlfan on Dec 21, 2008 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

The logjam at 3rd BAse will have to be cleared up at some point.

They’d be stupid to trade Glaus this offseason as they figure to contend this year. Unforunately the outfield is also too crowded to move Craig or Freese there. The 3B/OF depth is nice to have in case Pujols has to miss time.

Still, I don’t see how they can go this offseason without moving a couple OFs and a 3B.

by Czechguardsman on Dec 21, 2008 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

My 2 cents?

I think we should trade a package of Ankiel and Kennedy(please god), for someone like johnson(maybe a pitching prospect) from the braves.

Something more likely?
Trading Ankiel to the Blue Jays for Scott Downs.

by Taskmaster on Dec 21, 2008 1:37 AM EST reply actions  

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