The Greater St. Louis Cardinals of All Time

by DanUpBaby on Dec 16, 2008 5:58 AM EST Comment 165 comments

Hot Stove fatigue should be hitting you guys about now—it has certainly hit me—and instead of rehashing the latest non-news for today's notes I thought it was high time for something frivolous.

It starts like this: Everyone who has read me long enough for me to run out of material and start over from the beginning probably knows that my favorite player ever is Ray Lankford, the Cardinal of the Nineties and the focus of all of St. Louis's strikeout angst starting the moment Ron Gant was traded. I liked him because other people hated him, in spite of his numbers, and my desire to defend his value to the team led me directly to OPS and Baseball Prospectus and blogging. But even I won't try to make a Ray Lankford Hall of Fame case. He's a classic Hall of Very Good member, so prototypical that Beyond the Box Score has given him his own wing.

I love these players. Don't get me wrong, I love Hall of Famers, too, but I've always tried to appreciate the players who quietly add a lot to the team—whose value is most often realized after they've left, and a bunch of replacement-level types cycle through their position. So with that in mind I wondered: who would make the Ray Lankford team on the Cardinals?

This is a completely unscientific exercise, but it still needs some rules, and they are, listed as arbitrarily as they were constructed, as follows:

The players can't be in the Hall of Fame. Obviously.
There can't be a well-regarded Hall of Fame case for the player. The Ken Boyer Exception.
No MVP Awards. Winning an MVP makes you a superstar, and being a superstar means you'll never get booed for striking out in the fourth inning of a game in the middle of May. The Keith Hernandez Exception.

Without further ado, the All-HoVG team. Or, as I like to call them, The Greater St. Louis Cardinals of All Time.

CATCHER: TIM McCARVER
YEAR	G	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	AVG	OBP	SLG
1965	113	409	113	17	2	11	.276	.327	.408
1966	150	543	149	19	13	12	.274	.319	.424
1967	138	471	139	26	3	14	.295	.369	.452
12 Years	1181	3780	1029	154	43	66	.272	.329	.388

Honorable Mentions: Darrell Porter, Del Rice

Poor Ted Simmons, who just can't get considered for anything, is Boyer-exceptioned out of the running for the HoVG battery. McCarver nearly gets the Keith Hernandez exception, having finished second in MVP voting in 1967, but in dodging that bullet he becomes the prototypical Greater Cardinal. He was with the team a long time, he was a good player, and nobody is going to regale their grandchildren with Tim McCarver stories any time soon. At least, not Tim McCarver-the-player stories—his long discourses on Derek Jeter's Eyes of Leadership will always be memorable.

By the way, 13 triples? I might have torn Yadier Molina's hamstrings just typing that into the table. The 2B/3B/HR distribution in that year, divorced from the stolen bases, looks like a Jose Reyes line.

FIRST BASEMAN: RIPPER COLLINS
YEAR	G	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	AVG	OBP	SLG
1933	132	493	153	26	7	10	.310	.363	.452
1934	154	600	200	40	12	35	.333	.393	.615
1935	150	578	181	36	10	23	.313	.385	.529
6 Years	777	2776	852	165	50	106	.307	.370	.517

Honorable Mentions: Jack Clark, Gregg Jefferies

Not a lot of choices here—the Cardinals have played too many HoF-caliber first basemen over the years to develop a lot of HoVG candidates. You have no idea how much I wanted to give this to Gregg Jefferies, one of my favorite failed prospects of all time, but he only had the two years. Clark only had three years, and anyway might have been a little too fearsome for this exercise.

Ripper Collins has a poor man's Hack Wilson thing going. He's got the brutal-sounding nickname, he was way undersized for a slugger—5'9", 165—and he had a short career, although his was less the product of years of alcohol abuse and more the result of a late start. (He didn't hit the majors until 27, and didn't start until 28.)

I think it's fair to say he might have been a well-placed humorous anecdote away from lasting Cardinals fame; he seems underappreciated as a Gas House Gang alumnus mainly because he didn't do anything funny. The Deans, Pepper Martin, Ducky Joe... Ripper Collins was about as valuable as all of them in 1934, and he has a nickname first-name, which seems to have been a requirement, but there aren't any Ripper Collins stories to tell. With the goal of righting this historical wrong, I will now fabricate a Ripper Collins anecdote.

In 1934 a reporter from up east was sent down to St. Louis to interview Dizzy Dean, who was fast approaching thirty victories. His train's delayed, and he doesn't get to his hotel until late at night—he misses the interview completely.

So the next morning he heads down to the ballpark in the suit he came in on, looking the worse for wear, and stumbles up to Diz's locker. "Mr. Dean," he says to the man in front of it, "I wonder if I could have a few words."

Ripper Collins, pulling a sandwich from a brown bag with DEAN written on it in black marker, turns around. He takes a big bite. "Look, Mac," he says, "If you'll vouch that you saw Dizzy Dean eat this sandwich you can have as many words from him as you want."

I hope to see it in a book of Great St. Louis Sports Stories by 2012, and from there I figure Ripper Collins should be voted into the Hall of Fame around 2030. Do your work, internet.

SECOND BASEMAN: TOM HERR
YEAR	G	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	AVG	OBP	SLG
1984	145	558	154	23	2	4	.276	.335	.346
1985	159	596	180	38	3	8	.302	.379	.416
1986	152	559	141	30	4	2	.252	.342	.331
10 Years	1029	3722	1021	179	31	19	.274	.349	.354

Honorable Mentions: Jose Oquendo

Well, he's at least Hall of Good. The Cardinals have had three Hall of Fame second basemen, Hornsby, Frisch, and Schoendienst, and a lot of really terrible ones. And lately they've hardly had a second baseman at all. Oquendo would have been a fine choice, but Herr actually played one position, which is helpful in exercises like this, and he had the 100 RBI season, which is really cool. Most importantly, in true Cardinals Gritty Second Base fashion, he's got a serious case of the James Stewart Effect: his grit and sticktoitiveness cause people to instinctively use the diminutive form of his name, even though he is rarely credited as such.

For a team that currently employs a player so gritty he almost demands that "Aary" be considered a valid nickname, this sort of thing is vitally important.

THIRD BASEMAN: WHITEY KUROWSKI
YEAR	G	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	AVG	OBP	SLG
1945	133	511	165	27	3	21	.323	.383	.511
1946	142	519	156	32	5	14	.301	.391	.462
1947	146	513	159	27	6	27	.310	.420	.544
9 Years	916	3229	925	162	32	106	.286	.366	.445

Honorable Mentions: Todd Zeile, Arlie "The Freshest Man on Earth" Latham

Whitey is a member of the National Polish-American Hall of Fame, and normally we're very strict on Rule 1, but pending further review by the Rules Committee I'm going to let this slide.

Between 1943 and 1958 Kurowski is the only player not named Stan Musial to lead the Cardinals in OPS. At 29, with the War players coming back and competition returning to its pre-war level, he was still setting career highs when arm problems basically ended his career. After 1947, in which he finished third in the league in OPS, he played just 87 more games. But if you're going to have a career shortened by injuries you could do worse than to spend your full seasons with the Cardinals of the 1940s.

SHORTSTOP: EDGAR RENTERIA
YEAR	G	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	AVG	OBP	SLG
2002	152	544	166	36	2	11	.305	.364	.439
2003	157	587	194	47	1	13	.330	.394	.480
2004	149	586	168	37	0	10	.287	.327	.401
6 Years	903	3357	973	207	9	71	.290	.347	.420

Honorable Mentions: Uh, David Eckstein?

I'd have loved to give this one to Marty "Slats" "The Octopus" Marion, who has the nicknames, the alliteration, and the defense to make a great Hall of Very Good teammate, but the voters just had to go and give him that MVP, and then Brian Walton just had to go and make a very strange Hall of Fame case for him.

So here we have Edgar Renteria, a guy who, with 2070 hits now, might make life very difficult for sportswriters if he drags himself to 3000. Should that contingency arise a change will be necessary, but until then he's firmly ensconced as a Greater Cardinal.

LEFT FIELDER: RAY LANKFORD
YEAR	G	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	AVG	OBP	SLG
1996	149	545	150	36	8	21	.275	.366	.486
1997	133	465	137	36	3	31	.295	.411	.585
1998	154	533	156	37	1	31	.293	.391	.540
13 Years	1580	5417	1479	339	52	228	.273	.365	.481

Honorable Mentions: Vince Coleman, Bernard Gilkey

I've said this before, but if Colby Rasmus turns out to be 80% of the player Ray Lankford was—and they have similar skillsets—he will be a great, great asset. If Lankford's peak had started in 1996, instead of 1992, he'd be remembered as fondly as anybody, but he had the misfortune of coming through the pike to star on a terrible team for a few years, and then played second banana to Mark McGwire through his very best seasons.

By the time the Cardinals were regularly contending again he was probably the least popular player to ever carry a 114 OPS+ into the day he was traded. Now, with the sulking and recriminations from all directions mostly forgotten, is a good time to take another look at his career and remember how good he was for ten solid years.

He'd be in center, of course, but he's graciously agreed to move over for this guy...

CENTER FIELDER: TERRY MOORE
YEAR	G	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	AVG	OBP	SLG
1941	122	493	145	26	4	6	.294	.364	.400
1942	130	489	141	26	3	6	.288	.364	.391
1943-45	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
11 Years	1298	4700	1318	263	28	80	.280	.340	.399

Honorable Mentions: Curt Flood

Flood would have been just as good a pick, but Terry Moore doesn't get as many chances to appear in frivolous blog entries, which is an important Greater St. Louis Cardinals of All Time tiebreaker. A center fielder par excellence, Moore was named an all-star four consecutive years from 1939 to 1942 and then spent the next three fighting in World War II. Losing your gradual decline phase is hell on your career stats, but with his well-rounded hitting and smooth defensive skills he is classic underrated outfielder material.

RIGHT FIELDER: AUSTIN McHENRY
YEAR	G	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	AVG	OBP	SLG
1920	137	504	142	19	11	10	.282	.316	.423
1921	152	574	201	37	8	17	.350	.393	.531
1922	64	238	72	18	3	5	.303	.344	.466
5 Years	543	1959	592	105	39	34	.302	.343	.448

Honorable Mentions: J.D. Drew, George Hendrick

All other things being equal J.D. Drew might be the pick here, but I'm only allowed to wax rhapsodic about one displaced, lefty center fielder with power and speed who's underrated by the press per calendar month. And anyway, Mac's story, which I had never heard until I began researching this piece, is far more interesting.

McHenry, a farmhand who came highly touted by Branch Rickey himself, played his way into a full-time job by 1920 and in 1921 was among the very best hitters in the National League, one of the top home run hitters at the dawn of the live ball era.

But in 1922 his fielding deteriorated rapidly, and soon he began to complain about his vision. Rickey sent him first home and eventually to the doctors, who discovered a brain tumor. He played his last game in July; they operated in October; he died in November. Google coughed up this excellent article about McHenry from, bizarrely enough, two weeks ago, which is a required read.

So there it is: the imaginary ballots have been cast, the arbitrary rules have been followed to the letter, and the team is ready to take on any imaginary comers. Here they are, your Greater Cardinals of All Time:

Terry Moore, CF
Ray Lankford, LF
Ripper Collins, 1B
Austin McHenry, Tragic RF
Whitey Kurowski, Less Tragic But Still A Little Tragic 3B
Edgar Renteria, Not at all Tragic SS
Tim McCarver, C
Tom Herr, 2B
Pitcher

I'd take it. Of course, this leads us to another frivolous question: who'd be in the Greater Cardinal Rotation of All Time? And so on and so on. The good thing about baseball history, as opposed to worrying which free agent will end up where, is that when you run out of the things you've intended to say there' s still so much more to talk about.

5 recs | Comment 165 comments | Share

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Opening Day Starter for this team

Bob Forsch

by Hinkster on Dec 16, 2008 6:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

and DH/PH

Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:

by gocards62 on Dec 16, 2008 10:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed, I immediately thought of Forsch

by OCCardsFan on Dec 16, 2008 12:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i don't know

I think throwing a no-hitter should disqualify one from the HoVG rotation

"All baseball fans can be divided into two groups: those who come to batting practice and the others. Only those in the first category have much chance of amounting to anything."--Thomas Boswell

by albrtfn on Dec 16, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Forsch threw 2 no-hitters

But he still fits perfectly into this rotation: 10 winning seasons, 6 losing seasons, 1 .500 season. Never received a vote for Cy Young, will never be considered for the HOF. Just a good, stalwart pitcher.

"The Detroit Tigers' biggest obstacle to a championship will be keeping a straight face. The Tigers in three. (OK, make it four.)"
- Bob Nightengale's World Series prediction in USA Today, Oct. 20, 2006

by StLouisSwifties on Dec 16, 2008 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Somewhere, Bud Smith is smiling.

by Ray Lankford on Dec 16, 2008 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

and Jose Jimenez

"All baseball fans can be divided into two groups: those who come to batting practice and the others. Only those in the first category have much chance of amounting to anything."--Thomas Boswell

by albrtfn on Dec 16, 2008 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

starters on the pitching suggestions

A long-time lurker bursts forth to add to the argument: Forsch obviously, but also John Tudor, Woody Williams, Joaquin Andujar, Bob Tewksbury, Larry Jackson, Harry Brecheen, Slim Sallee and Bill Doak.

by slochaos on Dec 16, 2008 8:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

maybe even Kent Bottenfield?

glad to see the Tewk in that list

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 16, 2008 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Possibly

Matt Morris?

It's not what you do, It's who you do...

by pattimagee on Dec 16, 2008 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

someone else mentioned him though…

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 16, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yea... I noticed it once I scrolled down further

I saw one of Matty’s shutouts 1-0 vs the Cubbies… It was one of the fastest games in Cardinal history…some cubbie fans still managed to get thrown out…

It's not what you do, It's who you do...

by pattimagee on Dec 16, 2008 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

walking underwear

one of my favorites!

by Walking Underwear on Dec 16, 2008 9:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

get it? joaquin andujar?

by Walking Underwear on Dec 16, 2008 9:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I got it.

by Youneverknow on Dec 16, 2008 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Great stuff

and a fun diversion from Hot (Lukewarm?) Stove talk, but shouldn’t the pitcher bat eighth? :)

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 16, 2008 9:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

See Forsch comment above

Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:

by gocards62 on Dec 16, 2008 10:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My thoughts

My first thought was…this could be an interesting exercise.

After reading the line, “Winning an MVP makes you a superstar, and being a superstar means you’ll never get booed for striking out in the fourth inning of a game in the middle of May,” I thought…AWESOME.

My third thought, after reading the article was…this sucks, I can’t really argue with much of this…damn.

I was going to argue Jeffries, but you went and said why you weren’t using him. I was going to argue for Gilkey because he was my favorite of those “fab 4” we had then (Gant, Jordan, Lankford, Gilkey) because he was the fourth outfielder that never seemed to get much love from the Cardinal faithful. After looking at the stats for the other outfielders you have and then Gilkey’s…I can’t argue. I just liked the guy better.

Dang it. Good job. :)

by stlfan on Dec 16, 2008 9:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

You know how you wait for Pujols to come to bat?

I used to wait for Herr that way.

by sdrone on Dec 16, 2008 9:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

John Tudor is my number 1 pitcher for this list

His 1985 season was a thing of rare beauty. A couple of other pitchers meriting consideration: Ernie Broglio (for without Broglio there is no Brock, and he was a pretty solid pitcher himself before the trade), Mort Cooper (one of Tutes’ close comparables), Max Lanier (was actually better than Cooper), Jose DeLeon (OK, maybe not as great a pitcher as the others, but he deserves mention for this game alone…).

Some others: relievers Cotton Brazle, Lindy McDaniel, Todd Worrell (Lee Smith gets the Boyer exception), and how could one POSSIBLY ignore Willie McGee in CF?

by StanTheManFan on Dec 16, 2008 9:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

willie won 1985 MVP

"I've got this thing and it's [expletive] golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just not giving it up for [expletive] nothing. I'm not gonna do it." - Gov. Rod Blagojevich on Obama's Senate seat.

by elirock83 on Dec 16, 2008 9:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

On further review, you're right.

I misread the Hernandez exception. However, I’d argue for an exception to the exception. Willie was an odd choice for the prize and was an enormous fan favorite before 1985.

by StanTheManFan on Dec 16, 2008 9:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

But if you make an exception for McGee...

I’ve gotta bring out the Terry Pendleton 3rd base card. He won the MVP, but was with Atlanta when he did so.

It was a pretty weak MVP season anyway (22HR and .880 OPS), and Bonds could have easily won it.

Guess if I want to make the rules I should have made a fan post.

Baseball Fever.... Catch it!

by skcabrozar on Dec 16, 2008 11:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Bonds could've won it?

Bonds should have won it and would have if he wasn’t such a jackass.

by chuckb on Dec 16, 2008 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Was a motif for his career.

Baseball Fever.... Catch it!

by skcabrozar on Dec 16, 2008 2:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Mort Cooper

won the 1942 MVP.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Dec 16, 2008 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Now that one I actually missed.

Did Lanier ever win an MVP or CY? Don’t think so.

by StanTheManFan on Dec 16, 2008 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Other pitchers

could include Nellie Briles (19 wins in ’68) and Ray Washburn, he of the no-hiiter vs. the Giants, one day after Gaylord Perry no-hit the Redbirds.

There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 17, 2008 2:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ray Ray

I once saw Lankford get the Cards only hit in a 1-0 win against Dave Cone and the Mets, then hose a guy at the plate in the bottom of the 9th to finish it off.

Then the next day he hit for the cycle, and I was there. Probably the best night-day weekend my parents ever took me on.

In the end, though, Lankford to me was frustrating because, that weekend aside, it seemed like he only really put up numbers in games the Cards either won or lost 11-6. His clutch ability seemed to be lacking.

Anyway, great post.

"I don't believe what I just saw!" ~ Jack Buck

by itsalemmon1019 on Dec 16, 2008 9:30 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I remember that

What frustrated me about Ray was how streaky he was. He could go off on a team, but most of the time you were left wondering when he was going to do it.

by Toddius on Dec 16, 2008 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I was at that game when Ray hit for the cycle against the Mets as well

This is no joke. I always felt so much of a connection with Ray…here’s why..

I was at his first game as a Cardinal against the Braves. I was at the game when he hit for the cycle against the Mets. And he hit homeruns in every game I saw him live except one.

I just wish I could have been to his last game to make it seem complete.
Ray will always be one of my all time favorite Cardinals and yes I think his number should be retired.

We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.

by KYCards on Dec 16, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Lankford and Carlos Perez

Lankford was my favorite player from the 90s, and I liked Bernard Gilkey a lot as well. Whenever batting left-handed in whiffle ball games I would attempt to emulate Lankford’s swing and stance.

One of my favorite Lankford memories is seeing the highlight of him taking Carlos Perez of the Expos deep and imitating Perez’s spastic movements right before he rounded the bases. Would love to find clips like this on youtube but guess that will never happen. (But this was funny)

Great post, btw — loved the anectode fabrication scheme.

by phesto on Dec 16, 2008 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No kidding.

I actually modeled my golf swing after Ray Ray. He too is my favorite Cardinal ever. Just barely above Felix Jose.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 16, 2008 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Felix Jose is your second favorite Cardinal of all time?

I would bet real money that outside of his family & friends you would be the only person to think that.
Not that it is a bad thing. Is there a reason why he is?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 16, 2008 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I liked him too

Lots, actually. Even his name sounds awesome. He was as cool as Zach Morris but looked more like AC Slater. Who wouldn’t like a ballplayer like THAT?

by Ray Lankford on Dec 16, 2008 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Darryl Kile

without question. No, his credentials aren’t as nice as some of the pitchers listed above. Some not even close.

But as luck would have it I seen him play in Colorado in ’00 and get hammered (still have the Edmonds HR ball from that game). I mean hammered – hit like 3 batters in just over an inning pitched. The ball was crushed everywhere.

I watched him pitch 11 times that year including the series vs the Braves (#2 i think) and the first game vs the mets in the nlds. and even in a loss he looked brilliant.

Kile never was scared of going deep inside, and when he didn’t have it, boy he didn’t have it. However, every time he was on the mound he commanded my attention.

Even though he wasn’t a Card for very long, he’s always a cream of the crop for me. With or without the numbers.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 16, 2008 9:34 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

100% class

Being a Denver resident, I watched Kile get pummeled mercilessly when he was with the Rockies in the pre-humidor days. But he never once complained about the situation. Without fail, he would put the losses on himself and take the ball every 5th day. It was a relief to see him get traded and then thrive again in StL. Great job bringing him up.

I’d also throw out Hard-Hittin’ Mark Whiten for the team, mainly for his nickname. I remember the 4-homer, 12 RBI game, plus his wild throws from the outfield. You’d almost fear for the cutoff man’s safety…

"A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein." - Joe Theismann

by TurdFerguson on Dec 16, 2008 10:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Shannon on Kile as an Astro

for some reason, I happened to be listening on radio several times when the Cards faced Kile when was dealing aces for Htn. Shannon would go on and on about how awesome the guy was, how unhittable his curve was and little chance the Cards had. As Mike typically does with respected opponents, he always called him “Mr.” Kile. And that was long before Kile ventured to CO or Stl

by Hinkster on Dec 16, 2008 12:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Whiten and Tatis

head up the game-of-your-life team, non Hall of Fame division.

by Youneverknow on Dec 16, 2008 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

the extremely high peak, low average team (I won a similar award in bowling league, for having a score over 200 with the lowest average)

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 16, 2008 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

good point

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 16, 2008 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Kile was the first one to come to mind when I considered the rotation

And what about Vina for second base? He did get plunked plenty of times, won two GG’s, and an All-Star selection while on Detroit.

Plus, one of my favorite Cards memories is when I was about eight and seeing him talk on TV for the first time. I was floored, and I mean FLOORED at his amazingly sultry, baritone voice.

Monta! Montaye! Montae!

by Baked Biedrins on Dec 16, 2008 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

Vina has to be about as good as Herr

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 16, 2008 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Runs Scored

I just plugged in the career averages into Baseball Musings Lineup Analysis. While comparing players from the 1920s to the present in the same lineup is just about impossible, I thought this was still fun. It appears that this lineup could score about 770-780 runs (4.8 per game) in a 162 game season. For reference, the ‘08 Cardinals scored 779. With a good pitching staff this could be a really good team. I guess that’s the point.

by sra on Dec 16, 2008 9:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

brings back memories

of many of the first round of cardinals i remember. this isn’t stat based, but the ones i remember most (and some were pretty good players)
catcher—walker cooper
1st—smokey joe cunningham and bill white
2nd—-julian javier and don blasingame
ss—dick groat
3rd—whitey, but also shannon
lf—wally moon
center—gene green and flood
right—mike shannon
pitchers i’d consider—l mcdaniel for sure, plus curt simmons, jackson, and broglio; and andujar because “walking underwear” has got to be one of the best handles of all time

listened to caray, buck, and garigiola call those games

trivia—wasn’t in 1964 that the cardinal infield started the all star game?

nostalgia plus for the holiday season

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 16, 2008 9:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I think the all-Cardinal AS infield was in 1963

Great list, though. I would add Harry “The Cat” Brecheen and Howie Pollet to the rotation. Someone else mentioned Mort Cooper, whom I’d also include.

by StLouisSwifties on Dec 16, 2008 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

With your name...

you should know about Mort Cooper in 1942!

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Dec 16, 2008 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

walker cooper

that’s exactly the guy i was thinking of to catch

"I've got this thing and it's [expletive] golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just not giving it up for [expletive] nothing. I'm not gonna do it." - Gov. Rod Blagojevich on Obama's Senate seat.

by elirock83 on Dec 16, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Have to say

when I first began reading today’s post, I immediately thought of Julian Javier at 2b, my favorite player on the ’60s squad behind Gibson and Brock. He was soooo smooth at the position. Highly underrated.

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 16, 2008 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not really that good a hitter, though.

by StanTheManFan on Dec 16, 2008 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Cunningham was primarily an OF

during his time with the Cardinals. His time as a first baseman was mostly late in his career, after he’d moved on.

Pretty good OF, though, and the first Cardinal whose autograph I (or more accurately my father, since I was considerably too small to reach him) got.

by StanTheManFan on Dec 16, 2008 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

me too

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 16, 2008 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This post is excellent, DanUp

Come for the numbers, stay for the Ripper Collins faux-anecdotes.

by liam on Dec 16, 2008 10:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Amen

The Collins story sounded like it was straight out of Rob Neyer’s Big Book of Baseball Legends.

Speaking of, DanUp, if you want that story to stick, you might want to do some fact-checking first…..the first thing I thought when reading that story was “Did they have black magic markers in 1934?” If that story ever gets traction, some Neyer acolyte is going to ask that question. And if markers didn’t exist back then, the whole exercise will have been a waste.

It would be a shame too, to let such a good yarn come unraveled.

"Chokes it hard down on the knob from the right side. Stands erect deep in the box."

by arch support on Dec 16, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Uh-oh

Per Wikipedia:

“Sidney Rosenthal, from Richmond Hill, New York, is credited with inventing the marker in 1952.”

"Chokes it hard down on the knob from the right side. Stands erect deep in the box."

by arch support on Dec 16, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

This is investigative journalism at its finest :)

by astrostl on Dec 16, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

wow

Nice work. I actually thought about checking that before I published this, but then I thought: what’s a good baseball anecdote without possible anachronisms?

by DanUpBaby on Dec 16, 2008 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Good point

If that’s the thought, why not take it over the top:

“Collins then rode off on his Segway, leaving the reporter to ponder doing all future interviews via emoticon-heavy text messages.”

"Chokes it hard down on the knob from the right side. Stands erect deep in the box."

by arch support on Dec 16, 2008 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Just imagine what that would be like

The sports section of the newspaper would basically be like reading transcripts from The Dugout. What fun.

EastCoastBias: so diz, wuts it like being on teh verge of winning 30 gamez?//

Jack_The_Ripper_Collins: Get bent pencilneck! Lolz!

EastCoastBias: Lol. WTF!

Jack_The_Ripper_Collins: Just enjoying this sandwich. Om nom nom.

Ugh. I spend too much time on the internet.

"Chokes it hard down on the knob from the right side. Stands erect deep in the box."

by arch support on Dec 16, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That does beg for more

great non-stories from the Gas House Gang. It can be a recurring theme. Kind of like the time that Satchel Paige (actually didn’t) no-hit the team in a Negro League exhibition game and afterward, Hornsby said “He has the filthiest stuff I’ve ever seen, and he’s a damn fine pitcher too.”

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 16, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If there wasn’t a HOF disqualification and more leaning to guys often forgotten about my #1 would have been “Chick”. My GPA still riles about how good Hafey was and he’s right, the guy absolutely mashed in the late ’20s and was traded to Cinci after posting an OPS+ similar to Albert ’07 (north of 150) for two piles of suck and some coin.

Another pitcher from the same era and part of our dominance during therein was Hallahan. Especially the ‘31 season.
13-9 with 16 complete games with a 3.29 ERA. The man sure walked quite a few batters, but what shines the most is how he did in the postseason.
4 World Series : ’26, ’30’, ‘31, ’34
3-1 across 39.2 innings pitched sitting with an era of 1.36 – 3 complete games while being two outs from a 4th (’34).

He faltered and declined out as the Dean boys came around. Still someone you hear little to nothing about.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 16, 2008 10:28 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

man...i was just getting into baseball in the early to mid 90s

gregg jeffries and ray lankford were my boys…i still remember when my dad told me that jeffries had left to play for the phillies(i later found out that it was over a no-trade clause, and i think that is where i first started to see that baseball was just as much business as national past time…call it the end of my innocence)

by VolsnCards5 on Dec 16, 2008 10:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Fantastic post, Dan

A great conversation starter and the perfect anecdote to “Hot Stove fatigue,” as you called it. For pitchers, I’d second the nominations above for Forsch, Tudor, Tewksbury, Andujar, and Woody Williams. And we can sneak Oquendo on here as the super-sub/utility guy!

by DCRedbird on Dec 16, 2008 10:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Fantastic post, Dan. A great conversation starter and the perfect anecdote to "Hot Stove fatigue," as you called it.

Completely agreed. Excellent post, Dan!

by astrostl on Dec 16, 2008 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oquendo

He’d have to be the third base coach. Sending people whenever he can.

by oldiz304 on Dec 16, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If Jose were the third-base coach of the gas-house gang

there would actually be catchers killed during games. I read that those guys played some of the dirtiest baseball out there. Can you imagine one of those fellas charging toward home basically on a suicide mission because the catcher already has the ball?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 16, 2008 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Are Edmonds and Rolen disqualified based on a plausible HOF case?

Does anyone outside of Cardinal circles think that Edmonds is going to get any serious HOF consideration?

In terms of Rolen, have the bridges he’s burned and his fairly sudden dropoff in productivity seriously hampered his chances for the hall?

by bailorg on Dec 16, 2008 10:59 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Edmonds will get consideration

though, I believe, he’ll fall short. Rolen has been hurt by the injuries and the lack of productivity more than the bridge-burning. Hell, Rickey Henderson’s going to go into the Hall of Fame this year. It may make for the greatest speech in the history of speeches. I hope he refers to himself in the 3rd person!

by chuckb on Dec 16, 2008 12:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Edmonds deserves to be in though

by JI on Dec 16, 2008 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Objectively?

Or because he’s Jimothy Edmundo the Great?

I’ve seen the objective case, and I recall thinking that his numbers made him borderline in today’s game. But obviously, I’d like to see him go in. He still might be my favorite player ever, even after that bit with the Cubs.

by mojowo11 on Dec 16, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I can't wait for that speech

He may become the first person ever to introduce himself for induction. He can tell us how much of a honor it is for the HOF that he accepted. At the end he’ll announce Rickey has signed to be player/manager for the Saltillo Sharpe Markers . Rickey’s used the product for years signing autographs and even though Rickey doesn’t speak Spanish the players shouldn’t have any trouble understanding Rickey.

If anyone thinks that couldn’t happen you just don’t know Rickey.

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Dec 16, 2008 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Rickey happy to be in the HOF...

Rickey wants to thank Rickey for being so good at baseball…

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 16, 2008 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you!

That comment made my day.

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 16, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

“It may make for the greatest speech in the history of speeches”

You obviously did not see Bob Uecker’s induction speech.

by Hal Lanier's Pants on Dec 16, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Edmonds only needs 18 to hit 400HR, that might at least keep him on the ballots for a while.

I’m shocked that the Cubs don’t appear to have even considered lowballing for a 2009 reprise.

I think his swing alone is worth induction :) Nobody does it better.

by astrostl on Dec 16, 2008 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think Keith Hernandez should be excluded from the Keith Hernandez exclusion

because he’s Keith Hernandez.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 16, 2008 11:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Taylor Douthit should be in the running for CF

Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BB SO BA OBP SLG
1928 27 STL NL 154 648 111 191 35 3 3 43 11 84 36 .295 .384 .372 MVP -15
1929 28 STL NL 150 613 128 206 42 7 9 62 8 79 49 .336 .416 .471 MVP-13
1930 29 STL NL 154 664 109 201 41 10 7 93 4 60 38 .303 .364 .426

11 Seasons 1074 4127 665 1201 220 38 29 396 67 443 312 .291 .364 .384

Also holds the record for most putouts in Center in a single season. Did all this on a couple of really good Cardinal teams and won himself a ring in the process.

He’s also a great great great uncle of mine, which is pretty cool.

by cardinal fan in chicago on Dec 16, 2008 11:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Yes!

Douthit was an important cog in the Cards’ ‘26-’28-’30 WS teams, and a very good hitter.

Has anyone mentioned Pepper Martin?

by StLouisSwifties on Dec 16, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Can't have no hot stove news

So let’s talk about how much I’m hating the Braves right now.

They’re signing Furcal, playing him at second base, and moving Kelly Johnson back to left field.

Well, maybe that’s just the story until they trade Johnson/Escobar. But still. Grabbing the best shortstop on the market and stashing him at second base? What nonsense is this?

by mojowo11 on Dec 16, 2008 11:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I actually like the idea of RF at 2B

He wasn’t an outstanding defensive SS, which Escobar seems to be, but he’s a better player on both sides of the ball than KJ. The stupid move is sending KJ to the outfield rather than trading him. They may be trying to hedge their bets against an injury though having traded lillibridge

Nice Robot

by azruavatar on Dec 16, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Doesn't Furcal have a cannon arm?

Would make a pretty salty double-play combo . . .

by Ray Lankford on Dec 16, 2008 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yes!

"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

by sportsman on Dec 16, 2008 7:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I mean, I agree that it's not a bad idea

He’s a -3 or so career UZR/150, if I recall (I checked a few days ago). That said, just aesthetically speaking, I find myself a bit put off by some team getting the shortstop everyone wanted and then not playing him at shortstop. Just seems wrong. But whatever.

I’m not sure what the deal is with the KJ-to-the-OF thing. Either a) they’re serious, which seems like a pretty big waste of resources, b) they’re just saying that so they won’t seem like they NEED to trade a MIF, which would put them at a disadvantage, or c) they’re worried about Furcal’s health and want to have KJ around in case his back craps out in the near future.

I’d love to trade Ankiel for KJ. Not sure where that puts Adam Kennedy, since nobody wants him. But for the offensive upgrade to KJ, I’d do it in a moment, even if his defense kinda sucks (I’m not entirely convinced Kennedy’s defense will carry over to 2009). That said, I don’t think they’d do that — after all, they were asking for Ludwick+ before, I don’t see why they’d ask for less now.

by mojowo11 on Dec 16, 2008 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd throw Kennedy in the deal.

Cover part of his salary and then they have a backup in case of injury. OF+AK+prospect for KJ?

by STLRegalia on Dec 16, 2008 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

KJ plays for league minimum, right?

So, let AK be our $4M Aaron Miles. It’s different from if we were taking on an expensive 2b.

Obviously, if we had a place to send AK’s $4m contract, that would be ideal. But if we get a league minimum 2b, I don’t see a rush to dispose of the $4m.

by tom s. on Dec 16, 2008 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Doesn't really work

Johnson and Kennedy both hit lefty, so we’d want them both in there against righties. I don’t think either of them could handle shortstop. Miles was handy because he was a switch-hitter, but having Kennedy and Johnson on the same roster is kind of redundant.

by mojowo11 on Dec 16, 2008 6:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think

Kennedy could be as serviceable at SS as Miles was. Kennedy was drafted as a SS and has better range than Miles. Plus, Eckstein was a major league SS.

Still, they are both LH, which I think poses a problem.

by Toddius on Dec 17, 2008 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The Mets, too

They picked up Putz and now Schoeneweis, both players we could’ve gotten lots of use out of.

by liam on Dec 16, 2008 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

mets got rid of schoeneweis

by FunkeeC on Dec 16, 2008 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agh

Well, still. Useful player changing teams, not coming our way.

by liam on Dec 16, 2008 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This may be blasphemy

I know that flipping off fans might cause people to think negatively about a player, funny how that can work. Still, I think Garry Templeton merits some serious consideration. He was a good young SS for us, offensively solid in an offensively challenged era. Didn’t offer much in terms of homers, but hit a lot of doubles and a TON of triples. Strong defensively.

I’d probably ultimately go with Renteria too, but I’d think long and hard about “Two Birds” Templeton.`

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 16, 2008 11:59 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

+1

Don’t flip me the bird! Templeton was an outstanding shortstop for the Cardinals, who was never able to duplicate his success with the Padres. I never thought that Ozzie guy was going to turn out to be a better player. Ozzie was that shortstop, who couldn’t hit a lick for San Diego. Templeton had one season in St. Louis with at least 100 hits from each side of the plate. That was impressive.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Dec 16, 2008 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Boo Templeton

The reason Templeton couldn’t become the player he should have been was because he put out no effort. My dad used to throw batting practice for the Cardinals. He always talked about how Templeton was the last one onto the field and the first one off the field and he usually did the least when he was out there.

by stlfan on Dec 16, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Clark

I would really like to see Clark on this team. I suppose it has to do with my age, but man this guy was McGwire to me before McGwire became McGwire for us. It is amazing I had to check B-R to confirm that he was only with the team for three years. Seemed like so much longer.

I also loved Zeile. He really had some nice years. He was the first prospect I remember being excited about. Too bad he couldn’t make it as a catcher.

by OCCardsFan on Dec 16, 2008 12:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Jack Clark

or Will Clark? I was sort of surprised to not see Jack Clark… did he get an MVP?

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 16, 2008 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jack

by OCCardsFan on Dec 16, 2008 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jack Finished 3rd in 1987

in NL MVP voting behind Dawson and Ozzie.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Dec 16, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

One of my favorites was always

Brian Jordan. What a beast! What a fantastic athlete who went balls-out every game. I loved him as a Card and then as a Brave. Didn’t matter. Really a very good player for a pretty short time.

by chuckb on Dec 16, 2008 12:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Jordan was great

That short window of Lankford, Gilkey and Jordan was great. I always hoped Jordan was going to be Bo Jackson. He did make some great plays from time to time.

by OCCardsFan on Dec 16, 2008 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That team was the beginning of big things for the Cards.

I believe they had those guys in ’95 or ’96, when they made their first playoff appearance in a loooonnnng time. That was actually a pretty good team. They parlayed that success into the Edmonds trade after Jordan left.

Honestly, if it weren’t for that team in mid-to-late 90’s, we never would have gotten McGwire or Edmonds. That kind of brought baseball back in the Lou. I went to several games during the ‘95 season, and you could litterally lay on the bleachers and nap during games. They were $4 per seat, and you could sit anywhere you wanted. Then, in ’96, that triumvirate led us on Ozzie’s farewell tour and we just happenned to win the division. We sold out those playoff games and clobbered the Padres in the first round. In my opinoin, if we didn’t have that good team to build from, we never would have had the money to go get those big-time Jocketty free agents and enjoyed the success we have come to expect.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 16, 2008 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

don't forget the foursome

including Hard Hittin’ Mark Whiten. Our pitching was so bad then that I thought we ought to rotate Lankford, Gilkey, Whiten, and Jordan on the mound. They couldn’t be worse than what we were running out to the mound every day and at least we’d get the extra bat in the lineup.

by chuckb on Dec 16, 2008 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

it was cool too

cuz he played some football

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 16, 2008 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think he was an All-pro safety with the Falcons.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 16, 2008 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jordan's HoRG moment

1996 NLCS, Game 4. Gant j-u-s-t missed a homer in the bottom of the 8th before Jordan went deep (off McMichael?). Put us up 3-1 in the series and it looked like good times. Um, yeah.

Jack Buck used to describe his defense as “stalking” a ball hit his way. Always thought that was perfect.

youneverknow

by meat on Dec 16, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I will always remember Brian Jordan's 1996 NLDS Game 3

Was against the Padres.

He made an over-the-wall catch and hit a 2-run homer off Hoffman in the 9th. An amazing year.

And he hit something like .900 with the bases loaded that year. :)

by lightbulb on Dec 16, 2008 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Found it

He only hit .684 with the bases loaded in 1996.

It was one of those stats where you know it’s fluke-ish, but you just LOVED seeing him come up with the sacks jammed. That was his business time.

by lightbulb on Dec 16, 2008 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Flight of the Conchords?

“And you know when I’m down to just my socks what time it is. Its business time!”

by Ray Lankford on Dec 16, 2008 7:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not crying

its just raining…..on my face

by FunkeeC on Dec 16, 2008 7:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

“Team Building Excercise ’99!”

by lightbulb on Dec 16, 2008 8:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Does this mean tomorrow's post will be the Hall of the God-Awful (Kip Wells edition)?

by tom s. on Dec 16, 2008 12:47 PM EST reply actions 1 recs

einar diaz and his ops+ of 37 is a good candidate as well.

"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa

by adiueordie on Dec 16, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh no

Let’s not play this game! Now I am thinking about Estaban Yan and Juan “Disgusto” Agosto, and I didn’t ever want to think of either again. I’m sure there are others….NO!!! Let’s just stop!

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 16, 2008 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Mike Gallego. try THAT one on for size.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 16, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'll see your Mike Gallego

and raise you a Mike Tyson.

by liam on Dec 16, 2008 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I was just set to use that exact line

Just was going to use the name Tripp Cromer instead. Oh the memories.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 16, 2008 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sir, I cede victory.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 16, 2008 5:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Kelvin Jimenez

need I say more?

Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:

by gocards62 on Dec 16, 2008 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No

You’ve said too much already.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 16, 2008 6:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Dave Veres

he made me cringe

gonna need more franklins to get through this one.

by hoofhearted-pujols on Dec 16, 2008 6:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I was hoping for

a follow up with the Cardinal Hall of Really Good pitchers.

by stlfan on Dec 16, 2008 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

worst seasons ever, for STL players

minimum of 100 games played. enjoy ;)

Interesting that Aaron Miles has had 2 of the worst 100 seasons ever for a cardinal player.

they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums

by SleepyCA on Dec 16, 2008 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Rotation:

Bob Forsch (once again, he’s the first guy I thought of too…)
John Tudor
Matt Morris
Bill Doak
Harry Brecheen

The last two needed some research to make sure they never won anything significant. That’s a solid rotation though; here are the best years of each, separated into W/L, ERA, ERA+, Ks, CG, SHO and IP:

Forsch (1975): 15-10, 2.86, 134, 108, 7, 4, 230
Tudor (1985): 21-8, 1.93, 184, 169, 14, 10, 275
Morris (2001): 22-8, 3.16, 137, 185, 2, 1, 216.3
Doak (1914): 19-6, 1.72, 162, 118, 16, 7, 256
Brecheen (1948): 20-7, 2.24, 182+, 149, 21, 7, 233.3

by mattisnotfrench on Dec 16, 2008 12:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Pedro Guerrero

might deserve a mention for first base

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 16, 2008 1:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

ok

he was only really good for the Cardinals in 1989

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 16, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Another great, short-lived Cardinal career:

Felix Jose.

by Ray Lankford on Dec 16, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yah

he was a beast for a little while

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 16, 2008 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Vince Coleman...

I used to think he would make it to the HOF…

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 16, 2008 1:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Bince Coleman

when i was really young i couldn’t say my V’s used to always call him bince, for a time probably my favortie cardinal. The he went to new york and that fire cracker deal, and looked like a real douche.

If you looked at how his career started, it look like he had a chance, the guy just fell apart. I guess that’s fire cracker karma?

"I've got this thing and it's [expletive] golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just not giving it up for [expletive] nothing. I'm not gonna do it." - Gov. Rod Blagojevich on Obama's Senate seat.

by elirock83 on Dec 17, 2008 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ray Lankford

I’ll never forget when Mark McGwire said that Lankford was the best protection he ever had behind him. That is probably the reason he is so heavily implicated in Canseco’s book.

"All baseball fans can be divided into two groups: those who come to batting practice and the others. Only those in the first category have much chance of amounting to anything."--Thomas Boswell

by albrtfn on Dec 16, 2008 1:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

two just off the list

Dick Groat and Bill White made my radio days in the sixties…

by SLOKev6 on Dec 16, 2008 1:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Probably not now.....but in 10 years

Izzy

Also, Torre (the player), pagnozzi, matheny

Owner: Busch II
Manager: Whitey
Coach: Duncan
Broadcaster: Bob Carpenter

Is it weird that I would rather watch a team with the Marlins salary than the Yankees?

by ForesterShane on Dec 16, 2008 1:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Bob Carpenter

I moved to DC a few years back, turned on a Nationals game, and heard Bob Carpenter. I was so confused. He should definetly be the broadcaster, but it would be a shame not to have Al Hrabowski or Mike Shannon drunk, next to him.

by oldiz304 on Dec 16, 2008 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Torre won an MVP. He can't be considered.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 16, 2008 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I second the MM nomination.

Bird Lives.

by yardbird on Dec 16, 2008 11:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Looks like a good squad to me!

I’m not going to lie, I laughed pretty hard reading several parts of this…

At least, not Tim McCarver-the-player stories—his long discourses on Derek Jeter’s Eyes of Leadership will always be memorable.

Whitey is a member of the National Polish-American Hall of Fame, and normally we’re very strict on Rule 1, but pending further review by the Rules Committee I’m going to let this slide.

Good stuff, Dan!

"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 16, 2008 2:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Some players to consider

I agree with Ray Lankford – who didn’t love/hate him! I certainly agree about Edgar.

I’ve got to put Jimmy at CF. The intangibles. The seemingly lack of effort that always led to tremendous plays in CF or at the plate.

I’d like to see Tewks pitch – i know I use to try and pitch just like him.

by oldiz304 on Dec 16, 2008 2:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Andujar?

Unless I missed it, you gotta have Joaquin Andujar in that rotation, right?

by Thrasher on Dec 16, 2008 3:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

somebody mentioned him in the comments..

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 16, 2008 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yep, I saw it after I posted....

..funny how that happens.

by Thrasher on Dec 16, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

it's all good

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 16, 2008 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Reitz

My first reaction for 3rd base was Ken Reitz.

by Thrasher on Dec 16, 2008 3:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Haven't seen his name yet

where’s the love for Pagnozzi. Being a redbird from start to finish has to count for something right?

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Dec 16, 2008 3:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

oh yeah

he was great… and Harry Carey called him Tom Panozzo every single time they played the cubs.

this line is dedicated to '09

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 16, 2008 7:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ken Oberkfell

He hit for a good average at third base in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s. He had no power, though. I thought he was an underrated player on the 1982 team.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Dec 16, 2008 3:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

great post Dan, as usual

I love this:

By the way, 13 triples? I might have torn Yadier Molina’s hamstrings just typing that into the table.

by infallibleopiniongenerator on Dec 16, 2008 4:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

What About The Stolen Base

for decades the stolen base played a bigger role in cardinal baseball than home runs.

victim of the sixties

by victim of the sixties on Dec 16, 2008 4:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Andy Van Slyke

He had much better years in Pittsburg….. but I enjoyed his time in St. Louis.

Great Post DanUpBaby!

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 16, 2008 5:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Silent George

needs more love. CLutch RBI man.

by Beardsville Rockers on Dec 16, 2008 5:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

absolutely.

one of my first Redbird heroes.

Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:

by gocards62 on Dec 16, 2008 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting tidbit

Hendrick was traded along with Dunc from the A’s to the Indians in spring of ’73. Later, was traded in ’84 to the Pirates as part of the package for Tudor.

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 17, 2008 3:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm in on Silent George

Loved watching him play. He is what Encarnacion should have been. Would also think that Roger Maris deserves some consideration. Pepper Martin who’s name I saw above. The Cooper Brothers for sure

by The Duke on Dec 16, 2008 8:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Maris was 2-time MVP

Back to back, too. One of four outfielders in baseball history to do that.

by Youneverknow on Dec 16, 2008 11:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Plus

there’s a Hall of Fame case for Maris out there, too.

by Toddius on Dec 17, 2008 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Good outfielder, too.

20 assists and 2 errors in 1979.

by Youneverknow on Dec 16, 2008 11:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Marty Marion? Walker Cooper? Fernando Vina?

Some other what-if squads:

The-one-that-got-away team: Carlton, Pete Reiser, Rogers Hornsby, Moyer

All-roid birds – McGwire, Ank, Franklin, Vina (maybe bonus points for making two teams)

Dumpster-Divers – Caesar Cedeno, Wil Clark, Welly?

What say you to other teams?

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Dec 16, 2008 8:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

LH infielder Joe Thurston signed to minor league contract

MLB.com reports that Thurston, 29, was once one of the Dodgers’ more highly-regarded prospects and that he may be considered an alternative to bringing back Miles.

Barden looks like a better bet, despite Thurston’s impressive year at Pawtucket. And Thurston is lefthanded, which makes him a poor candidate to sub for Kennedy.

Bats Left, Throws Right
Height 5’ 11", Weight 175 lb
Drafted by the Los Angeles Dodgers in the 4th round of the 1999 amateur draft.

AAA Pawtucket stats 2008:
OBP .367
SLG .456
11 HR in 507 AB

In 5 ML seasons, 66 AB:
OBP .264
SLG .303
0 HR

by CardsWin on Dec 16, 2008 9:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Ho hum.

Not something to feel strongly about, whether plus or minus. Every team makes lots of moves like this in the off season. By and large, that’s the last anyone particularly cares about them, except the player himself.

by StanTheManFan on Dec 17, 2008 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Best names from that Austin McHenry article:

- Irish Meusel
- Cliff Heathcote, a tongue-twister of sorts.
- George “Highpockets” Kelly (Did he wear his pants really high or something?)

by spants on Dec 17, 2008 2:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Highpockets!

He’s a main character in Bill James’s book about the Hall of Fame. It’s a really bizarre reference to his fielding prowess, I think.

by DanUpBaby on Dec 17, 2008 2:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think Clinton Portis

who went into a tirade about ‘having his pockets on straight’ on a Washington radio station should hitherto be known as Clint "Straightpockets’ Portis.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 17, 2008 2:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

clinton portis

is truly amazing. I wish there was a DVD compilation of all his interviews from that season when he created a cast of characters who all talked about what Clinton Portis did every week.

by DanUpBaby on Dec 17, 2008 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sometimes a nickname

for a tall guy.

by Youneverknow on Dec 17, 2008 2:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He was

6’4" 190 lbs according to B-Ref. That’s a pretty big dude for the 1920s.

by spants on Dec 17, 2008 2:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Forsch as DH & Jack Clark

Forsch could also be the designated hitter (DH defined as the pitcher to go in the game and send a pitch dead center in the back of an oppossing player)… He was good at that too when it was needed!!! Ah, Jack Clark… Gotta lover the three run shot against the Dodgers in Game 6 1985!!! Best two strike hitter in baseball that year…

ShagOnSports

by ShagOnSports on Dec 17, 2008 7:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs