Winter Meetings Wrap-Up
by DanUpBaby on Dec 12, 2008 9:45 AM EST
578 comments
Have to be brief here—next week is finals week, which means that this weekend is complete-final-papers weekend. Miscellany:
##
Luis Perdomo was taken in the Rule 5 draft yesterday, and if the San Francisco Giants manage to string together enough trips to the DL with shoulder indifference and dead eye to keep him on the 25-man the entire year that will be that for the Anthony Reyes trade.
This is all I want to say about that: in 2007 four right-handed relievers in Perdomo's age group with similar levels of success were selected in the first five picks. Seven more were taken out of the remaining thirteen choices. Fringy right-handed relievers, all, with something to recommend them and some ding that kept them off the 40 man. Nice players to get for free. There were eight more selected this year, and I bet some of them will become big league successes, too.
There were zero players like Anthony Reyes available in the Rule 5 draft, which is a shame because the Cardinals could really use some starting pitching depth. It's funny, but there tend to be a lot more Luis Perdomo types in the Rule 5 than there are Anthony Reyes types.
##
Jeff Gordon boards the Fuentes Train. I like Gordo just fine most of the time, but this quote exemplifies everything that has caused violent argument here over the last two days.
But Fuentes offers a tremendous and immediate opportunity to add talent without subtracting talent. The Cards have the payroll space to take on one more eight-digit salary.
Now I was only a journalism major for a short period of time, and I failed out of the discipline, so I can't exactly speak from a place of booming authority. But during the three semesters I was in the program I was required by the J-school to take an entry-level Economics course, better known as the course after which college students everywhere immediately believe they know all there is to know about economics. And I've got to imagine Jeff Gordon had to take this same one.
Anyway, the first concept we talked about was, of course, opportunity cost, and Gordo here seems to just not bother with it at all even though the two sentences lay out the cost quite nicely. The Cardinals have room for one more eight-digit salary. If you sign Brian Fuentes—and I'm not even going to get into draft picks—you are subtracting one hypothetical $10 million player from the team, unless you think DeWitt is going to just pocket the money unless he gets His Man. This patch of ground has been trodden so many times on here that you can't even see the dead horse underneath it anymore, but I guess it makes just as little sense now as it did yesterday.
Meanwhile, the P-D's status report today will provide no clarity for anybody on either side of this discussion. From the piece it's not clear enough for Fuentes fans to know the Cardinals have done anything but lowball him, but if you're of the opinion that the Cardinals should hand the closer role to an internal candidate Strauss's phrasing—he has the team "in hot pursuit" of a relief pitcher—will offer you no comfort.
##
Finally, there've been a lot of sharp comments over the last few days, which is understandable, given the (relative) stakes surrounding this end of the Cardinals payroll.
But as our quarterly reminder let me just say that the best thing about VEB's community, besides its size and intelligence, is its tone, which is thoughtful and measured not just as far as blogs go but as far as large groups of sports fans go. So let's keep the personal and the needlessly harsh to a minimum. As the membership agreement says, "please follow the Golden Rule of blog posting: Before hitting 'submit' to post your remarks, ask yourself: 'Would I be embarrassed to say this in front of strangers who were physically present in the room with me and could respond to my face?'"
Every time I trot this out my eyes jump to the last line and I somehow read "hit me in my face." And I suppose that also works.
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No to Fuentes
I would like to see the Cards spend the $$$ on Sheets, if for no other reason than to decimate the BrewCrew’s staff. This signing could have a huge upside, and little risk of turning into Mark Mulder 2.0.
As discussed ad nauseum, we already have YP and Motte to close. And we can use the OF depth to trade for more RP later if needed.
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:
by gocards62 on Dec 12, 2008 10:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
agree on the "fountain"
but also am curious about what will happen tonight. i read recently that the rays may not tender jason bartlett. if so, signing greene doesn’t look so good. on the other hand, what about signing bartlett, if available, and playing him at second. i realize this would make out lineup a bit less gritty, but he could be our ss next year.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 12, 2008 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to have Bartlett at 2B
but if we can’t trade Kennedy they won’t let his salary just sit on the bench.
Milt Thompson FTW!
by gossard56 on Dec 12, 2008 10:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a problem for sure
but another 3 man rotation with less grit seems like a small price to pay for the long term benefit of having bartlett at short
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 12, 2008 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
true..
i guess grin and bare Kennedy for another year then he’s gone and we could still have Bartlett around after that.
Milt Thompson FTW!
by gossard56 on Dec 12, 2008 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Couldn’t we just bear him, rather than baring him? ‘Cause honestly, I’m not all that high on seeing Kennedy au natural, as they say.
It was half my fault, and half the atmosphere.
by the red baron on Dec 12, 2008 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
heh
(not a social commentary dealing with the other day’s thread…just made me chuckle without laughing aloud.)
by stlfan on Dec 12, 2008 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yea, but
stephen colbert says bears are the number one threat to america. ak’s not that bad, is he/
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 12, 2008 5:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
coincidentally
the bears somehow won last night
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
MI Situation
I really do believe that the Cardinals need to have a backup MI that is a bonafide (sp?) backup shortstop, whether this person is Bartlett or T. Greene, or whatever.
by stlfan on Dec 12, 2008 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Green at second, Tyler that is
I am beginning to believe that the Cards are going to seriously look at Tyler Green at second, he probably projects better there and would seem to have a plus bat, for the position, at least in comparison with Kennedy. I look for Kennedy to move in a package to bring in another starter, probably a 3/4 kind of guy though. I also expect that the market for Looper is going to put him available to us in the 5-6 million range come February/March.
by ckeiner on Dec 12, 2008 11:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I also wouldn't be surprised to see Kennedy go
But if he does, I have little doubt that we would eat all but $1 million on his contract.
by mojowo11 on Dec 12, 2008 12:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and then of course
the cards would have greene and greene up the middle. the could have and ad saying they’re “going greene”.
by mdarshan on Dec 12, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That combo...
…would lead to more outs than any middle infield combo in the history of middle infield combos…I’d be morbidly curious to see how that would work out actually.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 12, 2008 3:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
tyler greene had 19 errors at AA ball this year, and 4 at AAA.
by tom s. on Dec 12, 2008 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I meant offensively
Both have well below-average on-base skills.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 12, 2008 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At the very least...
it should compete for most outs by a middle infield combo that has the same last name.
by mattybobo on Dec 12, 2008 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hrabosky would love it
one less name to learn
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 12, 2008 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brian Barden at third and Brian Barton in LF too.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
they arent gonna non-tender him
when they refused to even talk trade about him per mlbtr
by FunkeeC on Dec 12, 2008 12:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At this point we would decimate their staff
But they will have 3 picks in the first round in next year’s draft if we sign him — theirs, ours, and the Yankees’, so they’ll have an opportunity to recover pretty quickly I think.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 12, 2008 10:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course
the Yankees and whoever gets Sheets get bona-fide MLB aces, while the Brewers get two extra shots at “opportunity.” Softens the blow, for sure, but not all the way.
by Hal Lanier's Pants on Dec 12, 2008 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well.....
If you sign Brian Fuentes—and I’m not even going to get into draft picks—you are subtracting one hypothetical $10 million player from the team, unless you think DeWitt is going to just pocket the money unless he gets His Man.
I don’t see alot of $10M a year men out there, that fit our needs. We can argue about Sheets/RJ/Pettite/etc, but other than them (and many of them are questionable), the talent out there either wants more money, or considerably less. If we don’t sign someone like Fuentes for $9-10M/per, I could easily see us adding two players that combine for that much or slightly less, and calling it a day. That, or overpaying for another SP.
I’m not saying we should give Fuentes whatever he wants. I’d be willing to do 2/20, or 3/27, probably. If he won’t accept that, we should move on. I’m still not sure why Hoffman isn’t on the radar.
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
by SoonerfanTU on Dec 12, 2008 10:06 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
drat picks
i worry about giving fuentes 3 because i don’t think he would be a type-a in 3 years. depending on who is non-tendered today, i’d say sheet at 2 with an option is our wisest expenditure, as long as it is close the purported yankee offer at 13 per.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 12, 2008 10:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A 2 year deal would be great
If you could get Fuentes for 2/20 then I’d be fine with it. There’s less risk of injury and decline with a 2 year deal and hopefully he’ll still be a type A after 2 years. I just think that signing a closer should be less of a priority than getting a starter. If you assume we can trade for a starter, then go ahead and sign Fuentes. However, if we will not be able to trade for a starter, then we need to look at signing a starter instead of a closer.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
RJ
>>I don’t see alot of $10M a year men out there, that fit our needs.<<
Randy Johnson fits our needs perfectly. Lefthanded starter willing to sign a 1 year deal. Fills a huge need. You may say he will cost more than $10 mil. but I doubt much more. Further, he might want to play on the west coast but what team on the west coast that will contend wants him at that price? I think we have a shot for RJ.
by jjray on Dec 12, 2008 10:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Dodgers do
The Angels have also been rumored to be interested, and both of those teams have more to spend with more resources than the Cards do right now.
Oakland is also in the mix on a one year deal, and looks to be trying to contend in the short term with their young pitching coming up the ranks. I think Beane thinks that he has a legit shot in the next couple of years to win that division, so spending on a one year deal for RJ may not be a bad idea. On top of that, chasing 300 wins and 5000 K’s will put asses in the seats for a club that struggles with attendance at times.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 12, 2008 10:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dodgers
The Dodgers A1 priority is resigning Manny. And it will break the bank to do it. I would be they do not make any big signings until they have a contract for Manny and then they will be tapped out on payroll. Yes, the Dodger have more resources in a general sense than the Cards but their larger payroll will be sucked up by Manny. It would be a big reversal if Oakland signs RJ. We should get into this thing.
by jjray on Dec 12, 2008 10:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I get the feeling
that our front office has talked to his representatives and were told that he isn’t interested in coming to St. Louis and that he wants to stay on the West Coast.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Dec 12, 2008 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No one even wants Manny besides the Dodgers
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Giants,too
The Giants train in Zona where RJ lives and play on the West Coast. If they scrape together the money, they could probably have him.
by mojowo11 on Dec 12, 2008 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have no interest
in signing a 45 (or is it only 44?) year-old power pitcher who may break down or fade out at any moment. His time is past, and the enthusiasm on this board for signing Johnson is dismaying.
by Mike G on Dec 12, 2008 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.statcorner.com/pitcherSP.php?id=116615&team=ARI&year=2008&leag=N_L
He put up his best numbers since 2004 last year with 184IP.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t feel dismayed, though – I doubt the FO is taking our thoughts into consideration!
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 12:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
damn those inconvienent stats getting in the way
by FunkeeC on Dec 12, 2008 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
as if
he’s guaranteed not to suck next season
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you are in the wrong place looking for certainty
how is that an argument? as put much more eloquently than i can below, there is no such thing as a signing w/o risk, ESPECIALLY for pitching. just cause i cannot guarantee a great year makes it ok to dismiss out of hand an legit option?
by FunkeeC on Dec 12, 2008 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you're right
still, I just don’t foresee it being a good option
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
its not a good option
only due to the probable lack of interest in RJ coming to the midwest when he will have likely interest by teams closer to home. he sure as hell is a better bet than leaving Pinata in the rotation which im sure you would agree with
by FunkeeC on Dec 12, 2008 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
absolutely
but we both know that pinata will be in the rotation
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad he's not actually
filled with candy. It would make the beatings a little more palatable.
by spants on Dec 12, 2008 6:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Johnson
the problem with that, though, is that you say he could break down or fade out at any moment. While that is technically true, it’s also somewhat true of every pitcher in the game, regardless of age, previous health, or anything else, seemingly. Honestly, if you could have made a list of ‘safest bets’ in terms of pitchers at the end of the 2003 season, Mark Mulder might very well have been at the top of that list. Even after 2004, when he was a little iffy at times, the future looked impossibly bright. Mulder was last seen on a mound in May of 2006. An impersonator with what looked like a turkey drumstick in place of his left arm has appeared periodically since, but not Muldoo himself.
Pitchers are terrible bets just as a general rule. All you can do is look at their performance, and the trends, and decide whether they’re worth the gamble or not. The Unit had a fantastic season this past year, older than god or not. I think he’s a good bet to be a solid contributor again this coming season. You may disagree, but I think you’re a little off base in terms of how risky he is compared to others of his species.
It was half my fault, and half the atmosphere.
by the red baron on Dec 12, 2008 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
but I’d be willing to bet he won’t do half as well this year. Warren Spahn was even better than Johnson—he even completed most of his games—well into his 40’s—and then one season he suddenly went out and had nothing left. The breakdown was not gradual but sudden. I’d prefer to risk my money—or I should say DeWitt’s—on a younger pitcher. I’d stay away from Jaimie Moyer too.
by Mike G on Dec 12, 2008 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yes, but . . .
what’s the alternative? the bonus with older folks like RJ or Moyer is that you can get them for one year.
your choices then, are to try to trade for young starters (i encourage this, but it is difficult to get quality).
I don’t disagree with what you say re: the risks of older pitchers, but younger pitchers typically want 3 to 5 years. and spreading out the risk over 5 years for a pitcher of almost any age virtually guarantees a serious injury or major decline. Try to name a five-year pitching contract that hasn’t resulted in the pitcher being seriously injured or ineffective before its end. I won’t say there are none, but there aren’t many.
by tom s. on Dec 12, 2008 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Keeping it simple, what do you predict for RJ’s IP and ERA?
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but I’d be willing to bet he won’t do half as well this year
judging by what he said… 92 IP and 7.82 ERA…for some reason I predict more from the Unit…
Life is better when you have a Big Unit!
by nomar34 on Dec 12, 2008 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Johnson is hardly a power pitcher these days
He throws 90-91 now, and FanGraphs only has him at 51.4% fastballs last year.
by mojowo11 on Dec 12, 2008 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's assuming...
…that the definition of power pitcher is completely based on pitch speed.
Randy Johnson was the 6th best strike out pitcher in the national league last year with 8.46 K/9 (173 Ks in 184 IP)… I don’t think it really matters how fast he’s throwing as long as he’s still effective… Not sure about everyone else but when I think “Power Pitcher” I think Ks.
by E-Dizzle on Dec 12, 2008 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I would say it has a lot to do with using your fastball as a dominant pitch (the key word being "power"). Strikeout pitcher and power pitcher aren’t necessarily the same thing. I’d say he’s the former, but not the latter. 50% fastballs at 91 MPH just isn’t a power pitcher in my book.
by mojowo11 on Dec 12, 2008 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
90.8 average fastball velocity in 2008 according to Fangraphs – it’s the number in parentheses after pitch type.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Averaging is one thing
But a pitcher of Randy Johnsons’ caliber is not throwing full effort the whole game. I can definitely beleive that he tops out 3 mph above his average.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Watched a few starts last year
He’s mostly 88-93 and he’d touch a 94 here and there and I think I saw a 95 in there.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 12, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point. TOP speed is probably tracked somewhere using Pitch F/X data.
(http://baseball.bornbybits.com/2008/Randy_Johnson.html doesn’t have it)
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Scroll on down a bit----yeah it does
Seems touching 94-95 was accurate. Dude is a freak.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 12, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, it’s on the speed/horizontal graph. Thanks! Using my ever-so-scientific “hold an index card up the monitor” method it looks like he touched 96MPH.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
dude that is science at its finest
the index card used a ruler/straight edge is a time honored tradition
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 12, 2008 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great Week
I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the intense discussion this week. And the reminder to check the rude behavior at the door.
Sheets, RJ, Fuentes, whomever…..it’s great to have options, something good to discuss and optimism for 09
I only have one complaint – for ArkansasTravs – thank you (not) for the song that has been playing in my head ever since Wed….."I’ve got an old mule her name is Sal………
Now the rest of you over 40 can sing along…………
by Hinkster on Dec 12, 2008 10:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
If there's a more embarrassing
writer at the PD than Jeff Gordon I don’t know who it would be. His only readable articles are those roundups of funny comments from other sportswriters. His attempts at analysis just make me cringe, as does his constant shilling for whatever move/non-move the Cardinals are making today.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 12, 2008 10:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm rarely moved
to comment on a sportswriter’s ‘game’, but it’s amazing to me that Gordon continues to be employed in print or radio. He brings very little to the table. And he should definitely stay away from the Winter Meetings each year. Last year it was that awful Rolen trash job. This article is just as mind-numbingly idiotic.
And I would say that to his face :)
by meat on Dec 12, 2008 10:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think a guy named "meat"
could probably defend himself from a sports reporter.
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2008 6:43 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
“What are you doing with those eggs?”
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sportswriters
Most sportswriters are like a once popular chef who for years served baloney to a satisfied crowd but the crowd (thanks to the internet) is now aware of things like chicken, beef, seafood and real food.
Many sportswriters…..Gordon, Jerry Tipton on the University of KY basketball beat and others are now an embarrasment to their profession………sharp youngsters like Goold only make them look worse
Most of the VEB guys have more knowledge in their fingernail that Gordon does in his career
It will be interesting to see what happens to these guys and the newspaper industry as a whole
by Hinkster on Dec 12, 2008 10:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
as i said yesterday
gordon’s already working for tlr, inc.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 12, 2008 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Having to dumb it down
The one problem with writing for the newspaper is that you have to dumb everything down for your readers. I would say the majority of newspaper readers are not Saber friendly. So you have to dumb down pretty much everything you write for that crowd. We are not the typical newspaper reader so it is hard to judge him by our standards. Maybe he knows more about baseball than we give him credit but his editor makes him dumb it down.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So why doesn't the same editor make Bernie
or Goold dumb it down? Nah, I’m not as willing as you to cut him slack in this case. Gordon has been on autopilot for a long time now and he gets away with it.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 12, 2008 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
so basically.....
we got nothing for Reyes….shame. Watch him have a great year.
Aaron Miles is worth it.
by dangpenguins on Dec 12, 2008 10:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
sad, but true
anyone want tlr for their gm?
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 12, 2008 10:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and he will
because you know…he’s actually a really good pitcher(just not a ground ball pitcher)
sometimes laduncan makes me really really mad
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 12, 2008 10:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A good year from Reyes
is bound to happen. What scares me are his projections.
Bill James 3.88 ERA
Marcel 4.45 ERA
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
But I guess we don’t really need another starter any . . . oh. My bad. That’s exactly what we need.
by Ray Lankford on Dec 12, 2008 10:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Bill James predictions always look overly-optimistic to me.
tRA* paints a much bleaker picture.
We’ll see, I hope. I wish him well (against other teams)!
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 10:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They appear to be optimistic
to me as well. The Marcel kind of weights it down a bit. What I’m thinking though, is the tRA* picture any bleaker than the $7.5M Jo-L picture?
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that kinda explains why the cardinals couldn’t get anything more for reyes than perdomo.
by greenback06 on Dec 12, 2008 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Reyes might not even make the Indian's this year
He is not guaranteed a spot on the roster and he is out of options.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'll certainly be rooting for him
i was excited and waiting to see him in our rotation ever since i came across this kid who was striking out everybody and their dog in the low minors! We did such an incrdibly poor job of developing him into a major league pitcher. Shamefull.
Milt Thompson FTW!
by gossard56 on Dec 12, 2008 10:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No joke
Whenever I think of him now I think of this game
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 10:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
But it wouldn’t be a bad idea to keep this game and this one and this one in mind as well.
As Forrest Gump might have put it, Anthony Reyes is like a box of chocolates: you never know what you’re going to get. To expand on Mr. Gump, sometimes you get something very tasty, but other times it’s something brown and gooey and aromatic, but definitely not chocolate.
by StanTheManFan on Dec 12, 2008 10:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
on the biggest stage
he came out blazing, and no one can take that away from him.
by UNCDubya on Dec 12, 2008 10:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
in that first game you linked
he threw 42 pitches, 32 for strikes…found that interesting.
by UNCDubya on Dec 12, 2008 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That may be part of the problem.
I watched him in Denver a couple of years ago, from a seat close enough that I could about count the hairs in AP’s beard (right on the first base line, have no idea how we got such good seats). He was throwing strikes then … and the Rockies were sitting on them. They were loading up on every swing like a 6-year-old hitting off a tee. I’ve only seen one other performance quite like it, by Zack Greinke when he was in his free-fall stage.
And the analogy works: does A-Rey turn it around the way Greinke did, or remain in free fall?
by StanTheManFan on Dec 12, 2008 11:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know how scientific the methodology is other than correlating visual cues with past success and failure – not a criticism, just haven’t looked into the site in depth – but “Death to the Inverted W” is very down on Reyes’ mechanics.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not particularly scientific at all
But I hate Reyes’ delivery too.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 12, 2008 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
duncans strategy
is to throw strikes, fwiw
by UNCDubya on Dec 12, 2008 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
when you are being forced to pitch in a way that goes against your skillset
these type of games happen
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 12, 2008 12:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I basically agree with that..
…but all I saw of Reyes’s skill set at the major league level was a fastball with good movement and only so-so command and a plus changeup, which is great if you command your fastball well.
I’ll buy the argument that his command may have been altered by throwing 2 seamers instead of 4 seamers, but that still leaves two pitches. That’s not enough long-term. Hell, even if he had commanded his fastball (2 or 4-seam) well, it’s still really not enough.
I’ll say it again…there is plenty of blame to go around on the Anthony Reyes front.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 12, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Shameful -- I don't get it
He stunk up the joint for the most part. He had more opportunities to succeed than most young players. Everyone wants to believe that Ladunc treated him badly. Those two have a ton of experience evaluating talent,mental makeup, etc. Reyes couldn’t cut it.
They had had enough. Same with Marquis —does anyone wish him back.
Fair to argue they could have gotten a bit more for him but only if they had traded him earlier.
We won’t hear much more from Anthony Reyes
by The Duke on Dec 12, 2008 6:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Only because we'll
have our hands over our ears while yelling “I CAN’T HEAR YOU! LALALALALA!”
Or maybe he’s done for real.
by spants on Dec 12, 2008 6:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We won't hear much from him
Because he’ll be in the AL. I won’t write off the guy who pitched that gem in Game 1 of the 2006 WS. Especially since he is still young, and a new environment which could benefit him.
TLR and DD are a great duo, but they can’t work well with every guy. Sometimes personalities and styles just can’t get on the same page.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 12, 2008 6:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm really split about Fuentes
but am happy to lean towards the positive side.
If we sign him our bullpen should be rock solid. With Motte, Perez and Franklin pitching the 7th and 8th. It would give us the option to move McClellan to the rotation which would be adding a low cost controlled young pitcher to the rotation. That trickle down from the Fuentes signing in itself gets me excited.
Milt Thompson FTW!
by gossard56 on Dec 12, 2008 10:19 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
it's all about the money for me
yes, he would be an asset in the pen, especially if he can handle not being the 100% closer. i bail on the idea though if it take more than 8-9M and more than 2 years. he’s 33 now, so the chances of getting our first round pick back drop rapidly when he’s 36-37. if that’s the case, then 3-33 and an almost sure loss of the pick seems just too expensive. my only comfort is that if we were offering 3-33, it would be over already.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 12, 2008 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You can't expect
to get the first-round pick anyway. The Cardinals never have the balls to offer arbitration to anyone, as proved by the Looper fiasco.
by Mike G on Dec 12, 2008 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
allow me to retort
Edgar Renteria and Matt Morris. If you mean in the last two years only on Type B free agents then you point is more credible.
by nmstar on Dec 12, 2008 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If we sign Fuentes
I think it makes the decision to not offer Springer arb. even more indefensible. If we had Springer for another year, and we signed Fuentes, then McClellan becomes redundant in the bullpen, as you’d have Springer, Motte, Perez and Franklin from the right side – a pretty salty right side of the pen. K-Mac then becomes your #5 starter / swing-man for when (if) Carp comes back.
by Ray Lankford on Dec 12, 2008 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Springer frees up a starter
That was my thinking. By signing Springer at $4.5 mill we have an overflow of righthanded relievers which makes McClellan available to start. And McClellan is better than any dumpster dive reclamation project for D. Duncan to work on. It would have been a cheap fix to one of our holes.
by jjray on Dec 12, 2008 10:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree in principle
And I do think that KMac to the rotation is a good idea, but there’s a HUGE risk that if he is in the rotation he will burn out mid-season. We need someone in the rotation who isn’t going to either suck (Jo-L, Boggs), flame out (McClellan), or have his arm fly off (Carpenter). Wainwright, Wellemeyer, Lohse, Piniero/Boggs/McClellan/Carpenter is a rotation just itching to fall apart.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 10:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
McClellan will be needed in the rotation sooner or later
They need to find out about McClellan’s durability as a starter. Why not next season? We shall need another starter in 2010 as well when Joel is jettisoned and McClellan is the head of the list. I see no advantage to waiting until 2010 to move McClellan to the rotation versus 2009.
by jjray on Dec 12, 2008 10:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why does he HAVE to be a SP at any time?
Maybe his arm can handle it, maybe it can’t.
Maybe he’ll make for a good starter, maybe he’ll be pretty average.
I’m not against trying it if he, TLR, and Duncan think that is what is best, I’m just not 100% sold that that is what is best.
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
by SoonerfanTU on Dec 12, 2008 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ya..well i'd take pretty average for league minimum
Milt Thompson FTW!
by gossard56 on Dec 12, 2008 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whether or not he is needed
is debatable, but the first thing I said was, “I do think that KMac to the rotatin is a good idea.” I never said wait until 2010. I just think we need to acquire another starter rather than relying on what we have.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i don't follow this argument at all.
the question is not whether kmac is needed in the rotation — of course, he’s needed. even if we sign another fa pitcher, we would get far more mileage out of a talented Kmac than pineiro. let pineiro do (very expensive) mop up.
The question is whether kmac CAN start. He’s got the tools, he’s got a year of ML experience, but we won’t know until he goes to ST and tries.
There’s no logical reason to keep a potentially talented cost-controlled starter in the bullpen. If Kmac can start, a capable KMac over even a marginal year of 150 innings as a starter is much better than a star KMac as a reliever over 70 innings.
by tom s. on Dec 12, 2008 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That logic doesn't fly.....
It’s like saying we should move Pujols to 2B/3B b/c he can likely field it adequately, and he’d be an even better hitter as far as 2B go, then 1B.
You don’t compare K-Mac as a SP to K-Mac as a reliever. You compare him at each position to who he’d replace.
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
by SoonerfanTU on Dec 12, 2008 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
“You compare him at each position to who he’d replace.”
You made this argument in another thread and it didn’t make sense there either. Our rotation last year was not good. It appears to be brittle and tattered for next year. Despite the blown saves, we have many more options and more talent in the pen. He’s compared to a replacement level baseline as a starter but, for the Cardinals’ pen, he’d be compared to something more like 1 WAR.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What I am saying.....
makes perfect sense. You can’t just say that he’d be effective as a SP, and since SP’s pitch more innings than relievers, he should start.
This isn’t opinion, this is commen sense. If you are going to measure his effect at both positions, you have to look at who he replaces, and who replaces him.
We aren’t THAT deep at MR either. I know you want to think that Perez and Motte are going to cruise through the year, but what if they don’t? You really want there to be a bullpen with no K-Mac or Springer to fall back on? Our problems with our pen last year for at the end of the games. We need to solve that, but not blow up the rest of the pen that worked. We’ve already probably lost Springer. I’m sorry, but unless we are adding a guy like Fuentes, I really don’t want to remove K-Mac as well. That would essentially be taking the only two positives from last years pen, out of the pen.
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
by SoonerfanTU on Dec 12, 2008 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“You can’t just say that he’d be effective as a SP, and since SP’s pitch more innings than relievers, he should start.”
God thing I never said that then.
And yes, we are that deep at relievers. What you keep glossing over is how thin we are in the rotation. You continue to look backwards instead of forwards by assuming that our troubles last year automatically are going to be our problems next year. Bullpens fluctuate wildly from year to year and ours could turn around with no additions as easily as it could bomb if you pick up Fuentes.
I enjoy that you make no real attempt to defend the fact that the replacement for a MR would be much easier to find than what KMac could do in the rotation.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good thing God didn't say that either
Too bad spell check doesn’t have a context function.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Dec 12, 2008 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
damn
didn’t even notice that in my proof read
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
i no wear you are coming form
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 12, 2008 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's spelled
comming
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and I did do exactly what you say.
pineiro. he’d replace pineiro. What do you think is better: 150 ip of KMac as a starter and 70 of pineiro as a mop-up/swing man, or 150 ip of pineiro as a starter and 70 ip of Kmac as a reliever?
I’m guessing kmac is better as a starter. Maybe kmac chokes as a starter and we would prefer pineiro as a starter. okay — but that ’s the real comparison to make.
by tom s. on Dec 12, 2008 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It bumps everybody.....
Up a notch in the pen too.
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
by SoonerfanTU on Dec 12, 2008 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well, as azru pointed out, our depth in the bullpen for righties is pretty strong.
perez
motte
kinney
franklin
thompson
boggs
and pineiro, if we put kmac in the rotation.
Not to mention all our AAA prospects, and the relatively simple process of trading for or signing a right-handed reliever in the middle of the year if ALL of the ample options above fail.
Right handed relievers are one step up from fourth outfielders in the “challenging to find” department in baseball. How many blockbuster trades have there been for non-closing right-handed relievers?
Talented starters are like gold.
And, yes, actually, pitching more innings makes you more valuable. I understand that moving someone into the rotation may diminish the bullpen. It’s hard to imagine how the extent to which the bullpen is diminished is not overwhelmed by the improvement to the rotation. Unless the pitcher in question is just not a good starter at all.
by tom s. on Dec 12, 2008 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you sign Brian Fuentes—and I’m not even going to get into draft picks—you are subtracting one hypothetical $10 million player from the team
In this way draft picks 16-25 are no longer considered to be worth ten million dollars:
It’s 2.12M pre-inflation per Nate Silver’s own updated formula, not the original 8.95M.
He issued a correction after errors were found in the original methodology.
We are going to get bad results if we continue to use known flawed valuation estimates!
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 10:49 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
the hypothetical $10 million player is not the draft pick
He is referring to any other player you could buy on the free agent market for $10 million.
by OCCardsFan on Dec 12, 2008 10:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was about to say the same thing
Read what you quoted again astro, he said he wasn’t even talking about draft picks, he was talking about the ability to sign another 10M+ player due to budgetary restrictions. Gordon said that we only have room for 1 more 10M player, as such Fuentes would fill that slot leaving us with no more room.
To me the draft picks are like the cherry on the top, it is the first thing you see and many people focus on it, but the meat of what makes it a bad deal is hidden below.
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 12, 2008 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The 10M draft pick is still in use all over the internet, and that includes VEB. Sensitive subject :)
Hadn’t considered that he might be talking about 3/33M or 3/30M eating 11M/10M of our 2009 payroll, though, so excellent point. I direct nothing toward Dan in particular in either case – just the numbers!
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 11:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You discussed this yesterday though
Just as a way to separate topics try to keep the discussion on the worth of a draft pick to the article that uses the “bad” numbers. We don’t want this topic exploding over the same topic. And I thought it was fairly clear what he was talking about since he said “I’m not even going to get into draft picks”.
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 12, 2008 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough. I have no intention of hijacking discussion.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess you're still going to go w/
that $2 M figure rather than the updated MORP as well? Instead of $10, it’s $7 or $8M and you’re misunderstanding DanUp’s comment today.
by chuckb on Dec 12, 2008 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All I’m strongly saying is that I’m not going with the uncorrected, demonstratedly flawed version of a figure when a corrected version is available. At a minimum, I think corrections could be issued to articles that used the original formula as their fundamental basis.
2007 MORP (most current) definition: 1200000*(WARP^1.5) + 380000.
Let’s model using a 1.3 WARP player – that MORP formula says they’re worth $2,158,673.
Now look at Aaron Miles’ PECOTA card. Projected 1.3 WARP for 2008. Declared MORP? 1.4M.
It would seem that they’re using a different formula. Perhaps the 2008 version?
Now Matt Stairs’ PECOTA card. Projected 1.3 WARP for 2009. Declared MORP? 2.475M.
Now I’m really confused. The MORP definition tells us that Aaron Miles should be worth 2.2M, but he comes up WAY under that at 1.4M. The MORP definition tells us that it’s calculated strictly using WARP, but another player with an identical WARP is worth 2.475M a year later. 11.275% one-year inflation? The definition says it should be 8%. Do you still want to use it?
It looks like there are a lot of unpublished changes. It looks like Silver’s first article is still the primary basis on which draft picks are evaluated, at least from what I’ve run into recently – the 2008 THT Sabathia eval, for example. Are you seeing MORP applied to draft picks elsewhere?
My instinct is to instead look at the average declared WARP value and compare it with a similar player – we don’t need to project any dollar numbers or even worry about replacement definitions because the WARP formula is the same for everyone. For a 16-25 pick it’s an average of 1.64 WARP, or Gary Matthews Jr’s 2008 performance. -4.8 runs below replacement according to Inaz.
“average” can come about in a lot of ways, though: Matthews + Matthews + Matthews, or Pujols + turd + turd. That’s the problem with averages, and the reason that I think we should trust our FO to do specific player evaluation based on known pick slot and the available talent/signing requirements of the draft pool – more on this in the response I posted to MRCARD. Would I give up 2008 Gary Matthews Jr.? All day. Now, would I give up a possible Pujols?
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To some extent, this proposed move, this discussion, and probably this season
are a referendum on the team’s ability to assess its medical situation accurately. I am struck by how different man-love for Fuentes looks if Chris Carpenter is healthy and effective than if he isn’t. With a healthy Carp, I think a reasonable case can be made that a bullpen capable of holding a lead is the biggest thing needed going into 2009. If Carp can’t go or won’t be effective … no way.
I want to withhold judgment on this until it’s clear whether Mo and company have been sold a bill of goods on Carp’s status. Of course, by then it’ll be too late.
by StanTheManFan on Dec 12, 2008 10:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Beating a dead horse (over and over again)
Is there any other rumor out there for a good starting pitcher? I’ve heard the “I heart Randy Johnson” (will never come to St. Louis because he’s repeatedly said he wants to be on the west coast and he has enough interest there to get it). Everyone has a mancrushes on Sheets (for good reason) but it is a daydream that he will sign for 2 years (you don’t think 10 teams wouldn’t sign him right NOW for 2 years if that were the case?). I’d put my money on Sheets at 4 (though I could see him getting 3) even with the scary shoulder issue.
Then there is the pipe dream that we can trade Ankiel for Sonnanstine (I REALLY heart Sonnanstine, but it would take A LOT to get him, certainly more than 1 year of Ankiel or trading Skip Schumacher + minor league fringe). Plus Tampa Bay may not trade another starter after trading Edwin. The Yankees may trade, but they know they can get more than Ankiel for Kennedy/ Stewart (though that might be an option if we throw in someone like Anderson). There are a lot of teams out there with extra outfielders, so it’s not like the Cardinals are the only ones they will be talking to. Oliver Perez is now asking for the moon (and may get it), so who is the target?
My question is this. If Mo is really offering less than 10 (say 3 years 27 million) and the cost of a draft pick is 2.12 million (per astrostl numbers), what would be the better deal? I’m not saying there isn’t one out there, but most of the discussion I’ve seen has been unrealistic at best utilizing rumors that severely undervalue players worth (see Sheets, Ben).
Would Wolf be better? (I haven’t heard any rumors on what he is asking or where he wants to live (remember, he spurned a better offer from the Cardinals to take a discount to be on the west coast a couple of years ago), but I would imagine it would be similar to Fuentes). What starting pitcher is out there in the 10-12 million dollar range per year (and only asking for 2-3 years) that would be more than 2-3 wins (Fuentes replacement numbers; 2-3 if you believe Russ Springer would have repeated last season’s fantastic numbers at age 40, 3-3.5 if you don’t and he’s replacing the back of the bullpen).
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 11:22 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
P.S.
I don’t mean to be antagonistic, I’d just like to spur some different discussion than: “The Cardinals are stupid for offering Fuentes 3 years 33 million dollars when they can have sheets for 2/30 million.” (Which again, I think is unrealistic on both counts).
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Cardinals will not offer Fuentes 3 years/$33M
This is just some number his agent leaked out. I guarantee if the Cardinals sign Fuentes it would be for less than $10M a year. More like 3 year/$27M with a large 4th year options with a buyout.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
point hammered home
No offense, but that was exactly my point. I’m not sure if you caught the sarcasm or read what I wrote above.
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was directed at you but the whole community
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yay!
community! j/k
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it gets more complicated than just 2.12M…
For next year’s draft we should know our exact slot as well as the predicted player pool. If we:
- sort in descending order of objective quality and
- attempt to factor in signing requirements
We should be able to determine with greater precision (than a 16-25 pick range average across six years) what it is we might be conceding in the draft. Assuming people draft the best first we should be able to come up with a small group of specific players, and attempt to assess THEIR average value.
I think this is an example of front offices making SABR guys look like potentially out-of-touch math nerds, because they’re doing real scouting on real players while we’re projecting based on – in this instance – data from 1989-1994 with “quick and dirty” service time assumptions.
If Mo gives up a draft pick, we might think he gave up 2.12M. Or whatever valuation you prefer :) I think he knows WAY better than that exactly what it is he’s giving up, though. Maybe it’s a big deal and he thinks there’s an upside, or maybe it’s not much at all. To us it might just be 2.12M, but I think that’s a mistake.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not possible
there’s a whole season of HS/college baseball to be played between now and June 1. There’s no way front offices know the top 20 picks with any degree of certaintly right now.
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It can be top 50, not just top 20, and done with a general lean toward “does this pool suck or not?” Whatever the level of specificity, the general aim is just to have as much as one reasonably can. I sure as hell hope that our own FO is doing better than a 6-year window starting 19 years ago that uses a proprietary BP stat (plus assumptions) as its reference point.
If we’re assuming an exact average dollar return based on WARP, we can also just look at the exact average WARP return and comp with a similar player. If we do that, it doesn’t seem like we’d ever care about a 16-25 pick because 1.64 WARP turns into -4.8 runs using a respected metric. Declining in the first round doesn’t sound right, of course – and I think it comes down to scouting – but it does start to make sense why some GMs forfeit late round picks.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If we are going to sign a mid-level FA starter
we may as well have offered Looper arbitration. I think that a starter will more likely come in a trade.
About Ankiel for Kennedy, I really don’t think that the Yankees would expect Anderson and Ankiel. Kennedy isn’t THAT good. Maybe Ankiel plus a mid level prospect but Anderson is 2 years younger than Kennedy (Anderson is 21, almost 22) and already has 235 AAA ABs. Anderson is legit and we need to value him as a club would who needs a catcher.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the law firm of Anderson and Looper LLC
I too believe we should have offered Looper arbitration, but only if we didn’t think he would accept. I believe there will be quite a few "bargain basement " free agent starting pitchers at around Loshe’s cost (maybe even Looper).
Do you really believe that Anderson’s worth is greater than Kennedy’s (or Hughes for that matter)? I don’t think a lot of people would share that view even after Kennedy’s disaster of a season last year. Potential top of the rotation starters are hard to find no matter what their ages. I like Anderson, I really do, but he’s not one of the top 100 prospects in baseball and shouldn’t be treated as untouchable (especially when blocked)
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say
Anderson>Kennedy. I said Anderson+Ankiel>Kennedy. He should easily be a top 100 prospect after spending another year in AAA. I just pointed out their age differences because people always talk about Kennedy’s age and upside and Anderson is even younger. There’s no sense in throwing him away as if he is a mid-level prospect when he will be worth much more than what you are valuing him for.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Anderson/ Kennedy/ Ankiel
I could very well be wrong that Anderson + Ankiel = Kennedy in the valuation system, but it would certainly get more consideration than Ankiel for Kennedy or Kennedy for Anderson (from the Yankees). Maybe another player would have to be thrown in (with Kennedy) to make it work (or maybe Anderson + Ankiel really does = Kennedy). If anyone has a statistical valuation method to see if this would be even (or if I’m off), I’d like to hear it. Either way, Ankiel + Anderson for Kennedy would not be “throwing away” Anderson. Kennedy could definitly be that good.
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
An All-Star type OF
in Ankiel plus 6 years of a high upside catcher who will likely be a major league starter seems steep for a pitcher who has tons of potential but came off a bad year. Anderson will be worth more after next season so treating him as a mid level prospect this year is a misuse of resources.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Point...
Again, that is my point. I don’t believe Anderson is a midlevel prospect. I believe it will take a top 100-125 prospect (which is roughly where Anderson is right now) and a starting outfielder with upside to get a possible number 1 starter coming off dominant minor league numbers (maybe I’m wrong, and I’d love to see stats to back that up). If Kennedy HAD NOT had a bad season in the majors last year we wouldn’t even be close with Ankiel/Anderson. From what I’ve heard he’s looked good in the fall leagues as well.
P.S. Ankiel is NOT an All-Star type OF. This is what I mean about Cardinal fans overvalueing their own players. I’m a Cards fan but I don’t value Anderson or Ankiel quite as highly as you.
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
kennedy is a #1 potential player?
I’m not that up-to-speed on the Yankees’ farm system, but I thought his upside was considered somewhere around league-average? Has this changed, or am i confusing him with someone else?
I remember that the hughes kid was really being hyped up as an “future ace” type.
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2008 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
See above
He’s still roughly the number 30 prospect in all of baseball, and he’s dominated every year in the minors. (see above for my post on more info)
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
above = below
in this topsy turvy world we live in
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kennedy isn't a #1 starter
if that’s the question. Kennedy is PJ Walters with a better fastball.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow...
Their triple A numbers and prospect status would beg to differ with that statment. Kennedy vs. Walters. Why do you believe this to be true (or am I misreading you and you are saying that Walters would be a great prospect if he had a dominant fastball).
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know Kennedy well but...
Walters is a control pitcher, he can pin point location very well but he has a slow fast ball, if you speed that up then maybe he could be considered a much better prospect
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 12, 2008 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Walters has significant movement on his pitches as well
His control is good but some of his pitches are like WTF when watching them. I’m just not sure how well that plays at the majors.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kennedy doesn't have a dominant fastball.
And neither would be a dominant starter.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Now look what you've done.
I started a sentence with a conjunction.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Starting sentences with conjunctions is good writing.
Only bad English teachers proscribe using conjunctions to begin sentences. Look at the writing of H.L. Mencken – some 10% of his sentences begin with coordinating conjunctions. Or read the NY Times – again, 10% of the sentences begin with conjunctions.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 12, 2008 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
HL Mencken was not a top five writer.
I mean, look at his PECOTA projections for this year. Only limited movement on his adverbs. His “Words in Play” index was dropped from 2.68/pgh in 2005 to 6.87 in 2008!
He was not a five-tool writer: his satire and allegory usage never ranked with other writers. He had five tools going for him at best, if you count a .248 aphorism average as qualifying. He’s prone to injury, given a long history of writer’s cramp. Plus, if you look at his last three book contracts, he’s way overpaid relative to comparable writers.
by tom s. on Dec 12, 2008 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Stats
What stats would lead you to believe that Kennedy would not be a dominant starter. Every minor league periphrial that I see differs from this (though I don’t know the scouting report, so you very well could know something I don’t).
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kennedy has plus command
so he can screw up a lot of minor league guys who can’t track balls as well. He’s not a bad prospect, don’t get me wrong, but he doesn’t project (from a scouting standpoint) to be a future ace. He’s a #3 type pitcher with flashes of being better but his pure stuff (velocity, movement) are merely average or above average. An unlikely scenario where you could call him an ace could be a Buerhle type career but there just aren’t that many pitchers who can dominate with movement and command alone.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
That’s a good scouting report. Now, what do you think he’s worth? A number 3 has quite a bit of value. What would that value be to you?
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd trade Ankiel + prospect
for Kennedy. I think that’s what the proposition above was about. . .
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 6:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not going to get into
how much Kennedy is worth since it has been covered in detail below, but as for Anderson and Ankiel…
Just because Anderson is not currently ranked highly in the top prospect lists does not mean he is not a great prospect. At age 20 in AA he did this: .298/.352/.388/. Last year, at age 21, his combined AA/AAA OPS was .796. For comparison, Joe Mauer’s career minor league OPS is .830. I’m not trying to say he’s Joe Mauer, because he’s not, but give him a year in AAA and he will be worth much more than he is now.
Rick Ankiel isn’t an All Star caliber player? Look at the some 2008 NL All Star OF numbers, they say otherwise.
Corey Hart .268/.300/.459/.759 20HR
Nate McClouth .276/.356/.497/.853 26HR
Kosuke Fukudome .257/.359/.379/.738 10HR
Alfonso Soriano .280/.344/.532/.876 29HR (109 games)
Matt Holliday .321/.409/.538/.947 25HR
Ryan Ludwick .299/.375/.591/.966 37HR
Rick Ankiel .264/.337/.506/.843 25HR (120 games)
He is tied for 4th in the oh-so-important home run category despite playing only 120 games. He also ranks 5th in OPS. All the while he battled injury this season. I really don’t see how you can say he’s not an All-Star caliber OF. He could easily be an All Star next year.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmph. Hart and Fukudome weren't All-Star-caliber OFs either.
Those who make the squad are not necessarily those who should.
by StanTheManFan on Dec 12, 2008 7:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But
I think it is unreasonable to say that if Ankiel stays healthy next season then replicates and improves his numbers over the course of 150+ games that there is an argument against him having legitimate All-Star potential
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 12, 2008 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope your right....
but he’s not there yet. There are a lot of players that have done what Ankiel has done in 120 games. If you make a list of the top OF’s in the game, I doubt if many gms would say Ankiel. Granted, his potential is great, and I don’t want to trade him, I’m just trying to gauge his value. (which is below all-star caliber right now). You have to concede this point. He has potential to be an all-star but he’s not there yet.
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 10:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think I have to concede anything
I originally said “An All Star type OF.” Based on those statistics, he is most certainly that. Whether or not he will ever make an All Star team is beside the point. It’s actually a pretty vague statement that I made but he is definitely “All Star type.” You’re saying he’s not worth as much as an All Star, but I’d say he’s going to be better than Kosuke, Hart, and McClouth in any given year. He’s not an All Star (yet), but he’s of a similar caliber.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 11:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
More on Kennedy
By the way: Kennedy was the 21st pick in the 2006 draft and last year (November 21st, 2007) was named the 26th best prospect by MLB (official website) and this year (2008) the 30th. Let’s put it this way, Rasmus was a top 7 prospect last year (top 10 this year) and had a bad year too, how fast would you turn down a trade with him for Anderson/Ankiel? Now I realize Rasmus has (and had more value) than Kennedy, but we’re talking the difference between the number 10 and 30th best prospect in the majors for 2007. Is it that far off to assume Ankiel/ Anderson would at least be a fair offer?
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I feel this is the trade we need to make above all others
If we traded Ankiel for Kennedy it would solve our starting pitching problem for a few more years with a cheap good pitcher. Who the Cardinals had previous interest in since we drafted him out of HS but he went to college instead.
2nd of all we get to block the Brewers from dumping $10 million dollars. This would be HUGE for us especially in trying to sign Fuentes. Brewers probably can’t sign Fuentes without dumping Cameron. So by blocking that trade we could potentially save millions from not having to compete with the Brewers for Fuentes. Even if we don’t sign Fuentes we are blocking the Brewers from making further moves.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel plus
It would take Ankiel plus something significant and not Ankiel for Kennedy, but I’m on board with this.
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hate to even say this
But we should include some high ceiling relief pitcher like Reifer
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn’t “dumping Cameron” strong phrasing? +25.5 runs in 2008.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They want to
dump his salary, not his skills.
by spants on Dec 12, 2008 6:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They paid him 5M in 2008 and got a great return on investment. The 10M for 2009 was a club option and they exercised it, so it’s not a contract they were trying to escape. He wouldn’t seem hard to trade though, especially with his popular defensive reputation.
UZR is showing him at +9.7 runs in CF and Inaz (that +25.5 number I quoted above) only has 0.6 for fielding. Interesting.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 10:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he requested a trade.
I didn’t know the team exercised his option. Maybe the Brewers are just dumb-asses?
by spants on Dec 13, 2008 4:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nah
the option was for well below market value. It was an easy decision; by exercising the option, they own the rights to him for next year, and can trade him for prospects, or get more output from him than they are paying him for. If they don’t exercise it and offer arb, and he accepts, he’ll get more than $10M, and if he doesn’t accept, he’s just a type B so he won’t get them much.
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 13, 2008 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Where is this #30 business coming from
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
his link was a 2008 ranking
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/8331-mlb-top-50-prospects-for-2008/page/2
in Feb 2008 he was ranked 30th
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 12, 2008 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No Offense
But that isn’t exactly the best source. That was just written by some normal guy not even a baseball writer
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didnt use it
I was just showing where the 30th ranking came from, MRCARD used that link so I was just relinking it.
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 12, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No offense taken
I’m just trying to gauge his value. It would be nice if you came up with something to refute my point instead of just saying “it was a list written by a normal guy” though. As you can see from above, I don’t believe Ankiel alone will get Kennedy. His minor league numbers are quiet phenomenal, though I concede he was terrible in the majors last year.
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here is something from the NY Yankees minor league pitching coordinator
PinstripesPlus: Ian Kennedy struggled in the big leagues this year but was quite dominant at Triple-A. What does he need to do to have the same type of success at the big league level and is he a case where he simply needs to take his lumps at the major league level to make that next step in his development? Would he benefit from more time in the minor leagues?
Contreras: Personally I feel at this date he may benefit from more time in the minor leagues. He’s a four-pitch pitcher. He’s got real good command of his fastball, he’s got a tremendous changeup, he now has a slider that he has confidence in, but the curveball is not there on a consistent basis yet.
He’s going to Puerto Rico to pitch this winter to work on his pitches and since he didn’t end up with as many innings as we would have liked, we want to get him into that higher amount of innings so if he does make the club out of Spring Training we can pitch him for 175-200 innings.
I believe he’s got what it takes to succeed in the big leagues but some guys in most organizations will be allowed to go through some bad times in the big leagues, but we are there to win. Throughout big league baseball you’ll see guys who went through some bad times and some bad records, and they stayed there pitching to take their lumps.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 5:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
dominates AAA
but struggles in MLB…sounds like Reyes…good command on FB and a tremendous changeup…sounds like Reyes….why don’t they just trade back for Perdimo(or however it’s spelled)?
by STLRegalia on Dec 12, 2008 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am telling you he is there Reyes
I went around 10 Yankee’s blog talking about a potential Kennedy for Ankiel trade. They were all ecstatic about it and very down on Kennedy. Most of them thought the Yankee’s would have to chip in another prospect to get Ankiel.
This deal just makes too much sense for us not to try to hammer out
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
His numbers are better than Reyes
His numbers are better than Reyes, but the point is taken. I could be the one not valueing Ankiel and his 1 year before free agency high enough. (P.S. I actually like Ankiel) Now Hughes on the other hand would be REALLY nice…
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 5:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I haven't looked at the numbers, but
wasn’t Reyes extremely dominant at AAA? And Kennedy’s AAA numbers are better?
by spants on Dec 12, 2008 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
and remember, Reyes was never ranked as highly as Kennedy. I do see similarities though with some of the scouting reports.
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kennedy's fastball was nothing close to Reyes
Reyes was ranked as high as 47 in 2005 just after a quick search of BA.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 11:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No clue
He was considered a marginal prospect in 2007. Scout ranked him as the 41st best starting pitching prospect in baseball last year while Hughes was ranked #1
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
#41 is a marginal prospect?
So the Walrus at #40 is marginal as well?
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
41st out of Starting Pitchers not all Players
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you...
That makes more sense. He really fell that far from 2007 (MLB official website ranking of 27) to the 41st best starter in 2008? That’s quite a drop from someone that dominanted the minors in every year (including triple A 2008)
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No the 41st was from 2007
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you for the source...
It looks like there is a lot of difference of opinion on him. See below for Azruavater’s list.
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kennedy
I guess I could have found a better list, do you have a better list? (no sarcasm intended, I’d like to see a better list that you feel is more reputable). Number 1 may be a little harsh, but would you agree that he projects as a 2-4? What would you feel is a good trade for him? Would you feel Ankiel + a prospect would do it or is Ankiel enough?
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Better options
John Sickels Minor League ball (although it seems sickels likes him more than I do)
Keith Law
Kevin Goldstein @ BP
Baseball America
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's 45 overall right?
Flimtotheflam had him as the 41st best ‘pitcher’ but I see Sickels had him at number 10 overall. There are a lot of reputable people that differ on his value. Couldn’t get behind the wall of some of the others.
Even if he’s 45, do you think he’s worth Ankiel plus Anderson? What about Ankiel plus somebody else? If so, who?
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd try and hold onto Anderson
I’d push someone like Jon Jay or maybe Tyler Herron. I might swap Anderson but I’d have to think about it for a while.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
on Kennedy. He showed little when he pitched for the Yankees last year and is not high on their depth chart now and will be even lower when they add one or more big-ticket pitchers, as promised.
by Mike G on Dec 12, 2008 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Regardless of where he's ranked
he’s blocked, and I could see that making him a bit cheaper to acquire at least. If they require Burnett and keep Joba in the rotation – then there are quite a few guys ahead of him in that rotation Sabathia, Burnett, Joba, Wang, Hughes, etc.
by Toddius on Dec 12, 2008 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's blocked but...
He still has value to a LOT of teams. A cost controlled possible number 3 would look good to about 28 other teams (the Red Sox and Yankees will never make another trade again).
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
P.P.S.
I meant Ian “Kennedy” and not Stewart. I got my prospect names mixed up with Ian Stewart (Col). In my defense, I think there should be only 1 prospect named Ian for any 2-3 year period. (No offense to any Ian’s out there).
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It seems like Derek Lowe’s price might be headed down, to add another name.
The Yankees are the only team I hear about in hot pursuit, but they’re also going after Burnett.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And there's a message there.
Other prices will fall too, if the GMs are patient. The New York teams can’t sign ’em all.
by StanTheManFan on Dec 12, 2008 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Boston
Uh, Boston/ L.A. is interested too. Lowe’s price may fall, but it won’t fall to our range (fingers crossed hoping I’m wrong).
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 11:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve basically given up on trusting MLBTR, Rotoworld, and all that stuff. I just soak up the news and treat it like popcorn. That being said, Lowe is still a good pitcher and still unsigned, so hey!
The most recent post on him at MLBTR had the Mets’ GM saying his price might drop – FWIW.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my instinct after the refusal to offer arb to looper
and the failure to do any deals at the meetings is that Mo thinks the market is going to cool — a lot — so I actually suspect that Mo is going to wait the market out for a (spring 2008) Lohse-like signing. Possibly a couple. it will be hard to wait.
this is not insane. some of our big competitors are going to blow big money on the Burnett, Tex, Lowe contracts out there. at some point after the new year, the pettittes of the market are going to see less attention and reduce their demands.
by tom s. on Dec 12, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd trade Ankiel AND Skippy
to get Sonnanstine
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I’d actually trade quite a bit to get Sonnanstine. Nobody in the minors would be off limits (aside from Rasmus and the Walrus… who we can’t trade anyway) and our glut in outfield would definitely have at least 1 less player.
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's too late on Sonnastine
once they traded Jackson, they’re not going to trade for another LH hitting OF. I don’t know that we could’ve gotten him, but we’re not going to now.
by chuckb on Dec 12, 2008 7:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How about....
How does a pitcher that had a 2.18ERA in 07 and 2.32 last year, with 0.909 and 1.132 WHIP and a 2yr k rate of 8.5/9, 1BB/3K ratio and threw around 60 IP each year?
Doesn’t sound half bad, and the fact that that pitcher has 0 saves those years doesn’t bother me.
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 12, 2008 11:51 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Birthdate: 11/07/1968
That won’t go on forever unless he went on the journey with Jamie Moyer to find the fountain of youth. It certainly isn’t worth 4-5 million (with raise).
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
11/07/1868
Being dense and lazy—but fast searching baseball reference—I looked up the birthday, where I stumbled onto a St. Louis player born exactly 100 years before….
http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/freemju01.shtml
The only pitcher in the baseball-reference data base named Julie.
by ncgostl on Dec 12, 2008 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If we're kicking tires...
and it seems apparent that the team is resolved to finding a “closer” from outside the organization, why don’t we explore the studio space with takashi saito who appears likely to be non-tendered.
by trip mcneely2 on Dec 12, 2008 12:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to see us look into Saito also
He’s old and won’t require a long contract. Upside is dominant back-end bullpen force. Hard to complain about that.
by mojowo11 on Dec 12, 2008 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Something to consider from fourstick:
“I was big on Saito, Then I found out that he had a stem cell treatment for his elbow ligament instead of opting for Tommy John. I think this makes him a giant injury risk in the short term, and he wasn’t effective at all when he came off of the 60 day DL in September.”
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a-ha
not the glorious new age 80’s set, but rather a response indicating enlightenment.
by trip mcneely2 on Dec 12, 2008 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope
that we’re at least trying to sign Sheets
when do you think they’ll sign somebody?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 1:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
500000 internet dollars says not until spring training
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Dec 12, 2008 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it will be a hillarious offseason then
around here… it’s both aggravating and entertaining
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Only if the crazy rumors keep flying.
If they die down, so will the madness.
by spants on Dec 12, 2008 6:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope it won't be too long
I want some Sheets for Christmas ;)
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You guys are completely delusional if you think the front office is entertaining the idea of Sheets at all
They arent going to pay 15 million a year for someone with a checkered injury history, short term deal or no…Not with Carp already a question mark…
by moser34 on Dec 12, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
but two question marks almost equal a period, right? oh wait, one question mark minus a curly Q equals a period, I’m a little bit off today
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep I'm delusional
While we’re on the subject how about we make a new rule for this site:
All commenters are only allowed to discuss potential deals that WILL in fact get done. If you bring up an idea that you’d like to see happen and it doesn’t happen, you have to move to Peru.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Estoy de acuerdo
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 12, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So
Are you sayin’ I’m delusional?
No me gusta hablar español. No me gusta la clase de español…
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
La parte sobre...
…having to move to Peru if your potential deal doesn’t, in fact, happen. I’m in agreement of that, but probably only because I can speak Spanish.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 12, 2008 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I used to work with a dude from Peru
he was really nice, but almost neanderthal-like in his adherence to Christian fundamentalism.
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yes
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 8:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, it's okay...
This Peruvian guy is clearly a fan of this guy and admires the fundamentals of his football playing. Therefore, he dogmatically practiced the same football fundamentals. That’s what you meant, right Cards Fan in Chitown?
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 12, 2008 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yep
I wasn’t really paying attention when I wrote that, my apologies
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 13, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
non tender at midnight
might be an interesting weekend
also, i must say if i were in mo’s shoes, i would be waiting for midnight before signing any free agents. non-tender won’t affect the top players (e.g. cc), but everyone else will be affected. my guess is he is not the only one waiting and that fuentes will not get 3-33
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 12, 2008 1:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
"Non-tender at Midnight" would be a great first title for a sports/mystery series.
A dashing assistant general manager solves baseball related murders.
“Arbitration, She Wrote”
by tom s. on Dec 12, 2008 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Second in the series:
“Designated for Assignment: Murder”
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 12, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I definitely read that "Mulder"
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 12, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait
shouldn’t it be titled “Mulder, she wrote: a tale of intrigue and injuries”?
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Emphasis problems
“Mulder, she wrote: a tale of intrigue and injuries”
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 12, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s a possible non-tender list I ran into yesterday.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
definitely one we should pursue if it happens...
Brandon Backe as swingman…
what?
by phesto on Dec 12, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he could be
the first fifth outfielder/twelfth pitcher combo in MLB history.
by DanUpBaby on Dec 12, 2008 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
5th OF/12th pitcher/Pujols punching bag
That would be a great combo, eh?
by mojowo11 on Dec 12, 2008 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
as far as making history
I was thinking more along the lines of seeing his battery mate charge the mound as Pujols makes a flank attack.
In the game where Backe threw at Molina’s head, I think Yadi tried to pick him off first earlier in the game and Albert made a slap tag on his face. lol
by phesto on Dec 12, 2008 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He is so bad
He is so bad I would rather have Jason Marquis
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
as i said in the last hotstove thread
hire him as Albert’s bitch.
Dress him in green and he can look like The Great Gazoo while albert is in the ondeck circle.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 9:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd throw a minor league deal or 500K
at Daniel Cabrera, Chad Gaudin, and Chris Burke at 2b.
by stlfan on Dec 12, 2008 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cabrera seems like someone who would be the ideal transition to the bullpen
High walks, high Ks = good candidate
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
almost time to start drinking in the office!
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 1:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
just dont light your hair on fire
apparently you cant take someone to rehab against their will
by FunkeeC on Dec 12, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah.....
Love me a Morroccan-themed Christmas!
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 12, 2008 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Morroccan
architecture and interior architecure is awesome
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
is that a Michael Jackson reference?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking Richard Pryor
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The office...
that was a reference to last nights episode of the office I believe.
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 12, 2008 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh
I don’t watch that show… I kinda thought that’s what it might be though
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ah
the work holiday party was a success, even though it was limited to the office this year
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You haven't started yet?
What’s the hold up. I’ve already had four Franklins and two Jager Bombs.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Dec 12, 2008 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
good work
I salute you
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
We need someone on our team named Jaeger, or something similar. Any ideas of who this could be?
Only name I can come up with is Jagr, that hockey player.
by mojowo11 on Dec 12, 2008 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In the NFL
There was a kicker named Jeff Jaeger. I always pronounced it Yeff Yaeger even is he didn’t.
For baseball the best I could find were these guys and I don’t want them anywhere near our team. I mean come on Barry Zito, that’s the guy plugging them……….seriously Barry freak’n Zito. Wow.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Dec 12, 2008 5:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no fuentes
i would rather save the 10 mil to save more room to resign Albert.
by J.Wu on Dec 12, 2008 1:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Except
payroll doesn’t generally carry over year to year. We’re going to spend that $10M this year on something. Although, I do agree Fuentes isn’t a good buy.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it does carry over if we don’t overpay fuentes. the less we commit this year, the more space we can work on Pujols’ new contract in the future. I think it will take more than 20 mils a year to resign Albert and hopefully he will give us some discount.
by J.Wu on Dec 12, 2008 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, it doesn't
If he signs for 3/30, then he will cost us ~$10M a year. The $10M he would cost this year would not in any way affect what money we will have to pay Pujols. The other $20M will affect our payroll in the future though. There is no reason to save $10M this year because you want to have payroll flexibility in the future. You ensure payroll flexibility by not signing high price, long term deals. (See Lohse, Kyle)
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
the money from this year could be used as a signing bonus on an extension for Pujols. I believe the Rangers did something similar to this w/ Michael Young when they extended him 2 years before his deal was done.
by IA Card on Dec 12, 2008 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you talking about
re-signing him this year? Obviously if you extend his contract this year, then this year’s payroll could be used. I’m talking about extending him later, which most of us agree would be a better option. Like after this season.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think AP isn't going to sign for a perennial fourth-place finisher,
regardless of how much he gets paid. The best thing we can do to resign AP is to be smart with our money, build the best team we can, and win as many games as possible.
by tom s. on Dec 12, 2008 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you Captain Obvious ;)
The best thing we can do to resign AP is to be smart with our money, build the best team we can, and win as many games as possible.
The only question is: How exaclty do we do this?
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 12, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i meant that it could be false economy to save $10m this year to put on AP's contract.
If not signing a free agent or two keeps us out of the playoffs, $10m is money ill-saved. Don’t you think that AP would rather justify his case for MVP in 2009, 2010, etc. on his hitting and slugging rather than trying to explain why a player from a non-contender deserves the MVP?
Sorry, I thought my point was clearer than it evidently was.
by tom s. on Dec 12, 2008 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And I thought
you were referring to all the revenue that would be generated by winning the World Series in 2009 and/or 2010 (or at least making it deep into the playoffs), which could then be put to very good use in helping to re-sign el Hombre.
I was going to applaud you for your positive thinking.
If I were DeWitt, this would be my modus operandi – all in baby. Over my dead body small bears.
by CURVEBALL on Dec 12, 2008 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see what winning MVP's
has to do w/ re-signing Albert or him wanting to be on a winning team. As evidence of this year suggests, we don’t have to make the postseason for him to earn it, and it’s not like we have been a perennial fourth place finishing team the whole time he’s been here. Plus we weren’t a losing team team this year; we won 86 games. We’ve been (arguably) the best team in the NL this decade.
I’m in agreeance with you that we shouldn’t try and simply save $10 mil in order to try and re-sign Albert in the future because that can potenially hurt our ball club now. I understood what you were saying just fine, I was just trying to be sarcastic. My fault.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 12, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that when AP has a good year, he wants to have his "value"
questioned in public, relative to a guy that hit .245 or whatever it was, because the other guy went to the postseason.
If I were AP, I would like to think that when I work hard and excel I become the consensus pick for the MVP. If we don’t make the playoffs, it gives writers and commentators more reason to question his “value” (even though he did more for his team than any other player did in the majors). Plus, I would just want to go to the postseason and hit home runs off of Lidge all the time.
by tom s. on Dec 12, 2008 6:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Albert really cares
whether or not the sportswriters question his “value”. The Mang just plays the game 100% all the time and plays to win, and he does a pretty good job of it. And now he has two MVP’s along with his WS ring to wave in the face of those writers and commentators who do doubt him, if he so pleases. But like I said, I don’t think he is the kind of guy who cares about that kind of stuff.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 12, 2008 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's made comments before
that indicate he can be a bit of a prima donna when he’s a in a surly mood. He’s mellowed a bit, though.
by spants on Dec 12, 2008 7:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
meh
He’s no Manny
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 12, 2008 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why not...
Let Perez close and get our MVP some legitimate protection. Maybe Manny??
I’m tired of the low-balling reclamation pitching projects.
by Elpot on Dec 13, 2008 4:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no talk
of the lopez deal? he got a one year deal from arizona for 3.5 million…wow! he got that much money for having a hot streak that lasted 43 games? nice…I guess they are assuming hudson leaves for greener pastures which he probably will. I was advocating the cardinals taking a look at hudson, but now that kennedy’s back, there is no use.
disregard the nick punto quote…he reuped with the twins to a tune of a two year deal; we have no use for him either.
check out my blog: Redbird Ramblings
Mo, please go get Nick Punto!
waiting for the 2009 season to begin and colby rasmus to patrol centerfield!
by cards4life on Dec 12, 2008 2:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hudson
We may have dodged a bullet too. Check out his negative UZR/150 trend over the last three years.
Kennedy vs Hudson was discussed at length in this VEB article.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I did a little jig when I saw that Lopez was officially off the table for us, by the way :)
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Would you rather have Miles for $3.5 M
or Lopez? Cause, I wouldn’t put it past us to be paying Aaron Miles $3.5 M next year.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 12, 2008 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If I were forced to pick, I’d probably take Lopez: younger, slightly higher offensive projection, much better UZR at SS, worse UZR at 2B. That’s assuming a one-year deal for backup and/or platoons.
I don’t think we’re going to pay Aaron Miles 3.5M to be a backup next year, though, and I also don’t think we’re going to pay him 3.5M to platoon at 2B because it would seem to run a major risk of setting off an apparently-defused Adam Kennedy bomb. But anything’s possible.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if they wouldn't eat ak's 4M
why would they pay grit 3.5M
they might, of course, but makes no sense unless
it’s something like t .greene+fuentes = 10M, ie, fuentes at 10 means no grit
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 12, 2008 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Would you like...
…a poop cake, or a cake made of razor blades? Choose wisely.
by mojowo11 on Dec 12, 2008 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if I HAD to chose
id probably end up going poop cake
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Dec 12, 2008 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Poop cake is Miles
You lose. But then again, you were gonna lose regardless.
by mojowo11 on Dec 12, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
poop cake should be his new official VEB nick name
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Dec 12, 2008 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think grit is close enough
to poop cake anyway
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 5:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe
this discussion is happening.
by spants on Dec 12, 2008 7:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
somehow
I expected it
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 8:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
so poop cake it is?
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Dec 13, 2008 4:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone know if we Tendered Miles a contract?
Or just told him to go off and eat a poop cake instead
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 7:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
him, Florez and Johnson...
all got the big poop cake
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Dec 13, 2008 4:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If it's 1 year for either
I wouldn’t really care. $8 M is a little rich to be paying some Kenne-MIles or Kenne-Lopez hybrid but one isn’t appreciably better or worse than the other. 1 year deals are rarely harmful.
by chuckb on Dec 12, 2008 7:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was discussed the day it happened
We talked about it on the the daily thread when it happened, to me it was a good deal for what his season avg and career avg ended up being (almost equal to Kennedy in both) since he will be paid in 1 yr what we paid avg per yr for 3 yrs of Kennedy.
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 12, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just once I'd like to be psyched about a move the Cards made
not, “well…if he can be healthy, he’d be a good value” or “it worked out because Player A could no longer play here and we needed to get something back for him” or “if we use him in the right situations, he can be valuable to us and maybe even be above average”
How about an honest-to-God great move? Go get an exceptional player, pitcher, etc. Let’s try that for once. All the piecemealing eventually adds up to the same cost anyways.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 12, 2008 2:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Let's do it
Ankiel (+) for Kennedy
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What would be...
your suggestion for this type of move? I’m in favor of the Ben Sheets move, but that definitely falls in the “if he can be healthy” category.
No sarcasm in this reply, I just don’t think many great deals are out there. The only “great deal” I’ve seen so far this off-season was the Affeldt signing.
by IA Card on Dec 12, 2008 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1. Isn't this just a fact of life? Good, cost-controlled players are hard to come by. Older
players have injury issues. You have to pay for consistency and production. If we “go get” an exceptional pitcher or player, it’s going to cost us money or talent or both. Even if the player is worth it, it’s going to have high costs.
by tom s. on Dec 12, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just looking forward
to seeing Rasmus patrol CF and tear the cover off the ball. Maybe he will, maybe he won’t, but there’s your next Cardinal star right there, and he costs pennies (relatively).
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 12, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't even care if Rasmus is league-average next year
I’m still excited for his career to start.
by mojowo11 on Dec 12, 2008 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't wait to get a Rasmus jersey
It will be the first jersey I’ve ever purchased.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I figured eveyone had an Albert Jersey.............
by ICbirdfan on Dec 12, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I got an AP Jersey
But I’m dreaming of a Bruce Sutter retro for Christmas…..mmm……
A Rasmus jersey someday would be nice too. Curious as to what number he’ll wear? He was #4 in Springfield, but Yadi owns that one with the big club.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 12, 2008 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd buy an Ankiel jersey
but I don’t even know if he’s going to be playing here next year.
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 5:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have an Ankiel
t-shirt jersey. It’s not as hot while sitting in the June sun at Busch and way less of a financial commitment.
by spants on Dec 12, 2008 7:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I really need to get around making my own T-Shirt
I always wanted an 85’ World Series shirt that said the Cardinals won instead of the Royals.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 7:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I still don't get the love-affair with this guy.....
Some of you like him more than your own wives/gf’s.
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
by SoonerfanTU on Dec 12, 2008 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My GF can't play stellar defense in CF
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the girl i like is a 5 tool player
but even she can’t hit like him
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2008 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hopefully
yours is one of the five
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Dec 12, 2008 6:22 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Shazaaam!!!
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 12, 2008 6:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
believe you me, i'm working on it
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2008 7:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When my girlfriend
puts up a stat-line in the minors like the one in my sig, I’ll blog about her all day too.
The guy already has a HUGE fanbase in Springfield. This summer there was “Colby Rasmus Bobblehead Day” and “Colby Rasmus Poster Day”. Both games were sellouts, and he wasn’t even playing in Spfd at the time. And I didn’t get the bobblehead or the poster…dammit!
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 12, 2008 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's why a Holliday or Halladay deal would have been good.
by stlfan on Dec 12, 2008 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
correction
that’s why a Halladay deal would have been good
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Easier said than done
I felt this way about Lohse when we signed him before last year. But that kind of opportunity doesn’t march in the door just every day. Khalil Greene was a very good move, I think, though I can’t be TOO excited since he only came so cheap because he’s sort of a wild card.
(The Brian Barton Rule 5 pick excited me last offseason, too, now that I think about it.)
Honestly, I’m happy with a lot of our non-moves—that’s worth something. I’m glad we didn’t outbid Jocketty for Arthur Rhodes, for example. Meanwhile, I’ll be patient with Mo on the moves front. Hopefully he’s got something up his sleeve.
by mojowo11 on Dec 12, 2008 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fuentes has a new suitor
and their bona fide. Wierd to think that Mark Teixeira signing affects Fuentes signing so much.
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Dec 12, 2008 2:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That might be the last team in the MLB
I’d want to play for if I was a good baseball player. Money is important but that’s a sinkhole of suck.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
apparently the way to turn around a struggling ballclub is to throw enormous quantities of money
at free agents and hope they’ll lower themselves to play for you.
Not say, trying to sign and develop good talent for cheap (Florida, Tampa Bay). That would never work.
Really, who thinks that having Fuentes or Tex would actually sign in Washington? And would either deal ultimately help the Nats, rather than just leaving them with one contract dragging them down?
by tom s. on Dec 12, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know, I’m not advocating them sign the one player that won’t make them a contender, but if I were a high rev team that was subsidizing them I’d be at least happy they’re spending it unlike some of the other small market teams..
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think one has to think of it in terms of business management, too – one superstar might be enough to keep plenty of seats filled even if your team sucks. On that level alone it might make sense for them to throw money at Tex, but growing into actual competition can’t hurt too.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
just hope that we’re not that “superstar to get seats filled” team going forward. I don’t think we are, but boy that thought really sucks.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 8:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
McGwire
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Dec 13, 2008 4:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At least the Nats are in the NL
that way I get to see the Cards play in person at least once per year.
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:
by gocards62 on Dec 12, 2008 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's a perfect storm...
…No real ML talent, no real minor league talent, poor pitching up and down, and no real direction.
I doubt Tex is signing there…I would imagine that someone will offer a comparable years/dollar value contract. I think the Angels HAVE to sign him if they want to win more than just the AL West. He’s a beast of a hitter and a great fielder, and they really have no offensive firepower to speak of beyond an aging Vlad.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 12, 2008 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cruz
The memories I have of Cruz were getting lit up as a Cub…what’s the deal on him? That article makes him sound like K-Cru
by STLRegalia on Dec 12, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
He had the 2nd lowest contact% against him in the majors last year for what it’s worth. He doesn’t always knows where it’s going but when it ends up in the right place he’s filth.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 12, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I guess
it’s too bad he’s right handed then. Any idea what kind of money he wants/is worth?
by STLRegalia on Dec 12, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's a Type A and they offered arbitration, Cards shouldn't touch him
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 12, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Might be a righty but ...
He dominated lefties last year to the tune of .159/.307/.232/.539
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's
probably better than their lefties(cards) did last year…hell, offer him 2 years to be the closer and then go after Sheets…can’t be much worse than all the other options being floated around
by STLRegalia on Dec 12, 2008 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He doesn't get lit up much anymore
But he’s still Juan Cruz. Aim for the center of the strike zone and pray you hit a corner.
by mojowo11 on Dec 12, 2008 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yep, he's a suitor!
sorry, couldn’t resist O Brother Where art Thou ref.
Hyperventilating prospect geek Future Redbirds
by erik on Dec 12, 2008 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
re :draft pick
It’s not like we’ve been doing oh so great when it comes to the first round pick anyways. So taking it out of our hands wouldn’t be a bad thing. That being said, I would much rather give it up for a starter than a reliever.
And before I read it, no Colby doesn’t count, neither does Wallace. Colby was a sup and Wallace was an autopilot pick that has serious questions about having the ability to play 3rd base all the way through his arb years.
Thinking of first round picks, I really miss Matty Mo’…
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 3:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I miss Matty Mo too
So much so I tried to trade with Charlie from Bucs Dugout last season to get him back.
Once again sorry Az
"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin
by That's a Winner on Dec 12, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Morris has a higher WAR than I do.
It would be a good trade. I’d understand.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he hung around Jupiter
a lot this past season, I wonder if he’ll have a role in ST. I’d love it if he did.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
we haven't?
True first round picks from 2004-2008:
Lambert 2004, bad
Colby 2005 (not supplemental, but was a compensation pick)
Greene 2005, showing promise but not much till recently
Ottavino 2006, injuries have plagued him recently, but too early to tell
Kozma 2007, proving to be what we thought so far, avg to slightly above offensively and above average defensively
Wallace 2008, as you said it was an autopilot pick but how does that not count?
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 12, 2008 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
more
2003: Barton, trade for Mulder, showing promise with Oak so far
2002: no first round pick
2001: Pope, don’t know anything about him since I wasn’t following the system then
2000: Boyd and Williams, again dont know much, but Wainwright was drafted 29th by the Braves, Utley 15th after Boyd
Since 2004 we have gotten much better at drafting from what I can tell. Man it hurts to miss the boat on Utley though, in 2002 when we had no pick K Greene, Kazmir, Hamels, Francoeur, and some other decent players all went in the first round, but we would have had the last pick even if we had one
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 12, 2008 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah Boyd didn't turn out good
But that doesn’t change the fact that since 2004 we have been a lot better.
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Dec 12, 2008 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, and thanks for posting the picks year-by-year!
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In and Out can be considered better than McDonalds.
Meaning, when you need to get better from really bad, it doesn’t take much.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 8:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I haven't been tot he gym in 3 days and I'm having McDonalds to prevent
a hang over right now. It is amazing.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
heh
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 11:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you see Tupac?
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
as an eight year vegetarian, my first thought when hearing about McDonald’s is invariably Matt’s Dad’s Basement.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
eight years
Holy crap. I rarely have McDonalds or any fast food (probably the first time in 3 months) but I’m all about the protein. Chicken, eggs, beef, etc. — it’s 70% of what I eat.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I kind of was a grain heavy person before
so it wasn’t that hard of a transition for me. I just eat more peanut stuff and a ton of spinach. And cheese. cheese is good.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
cheese is good
I can agree to that.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2008 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Couldnt be a vegetarian but I am close
I don’t eat that much meat anymore except maybe once or twice a week now. I pretty much live off Oatmeal, Milk, Berries, Nuts, Beans, and Protein Powder. My friends make fun of me cause I talk about oatmeal so much.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
without meat, i would die
kudos to you Val. i could never do it
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Dec 13, 2008 12:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I've become an oatmeal snob.
Only steel-cut for me. Everything else is just so mealy.
by spants on Dec 13, 2008 4:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I eat it sometimes
I just put it on a crock pot before I go to bed to eat it in the morning.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 13, 2008 4:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and look at the signings before ours during those years. we didn’t pick for upside, but for “what we thought”.
look, I’m not discounting what we’ve done in the draft during first round and I’ll agree it’s gotten better. But none of those scream woah.
I counted Greene in the ‘05 and thought of Colby as a bonus. I wasn’t discounting him but if we didn’t have the comp pick would it have been Colby or Greene? From everything I recall from around then, most likely it would have been Greene.
I’ll be more bullish on Kozma if he has a breakout year this year. If not, I don’t know how I’ll look at that pick.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 8:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So seriously...
if closer was such a big deal, why didnt we offer 2/33 for Wood. He wouldnt cost a pick and woiuld have costed less years. Im not sure what thats all about.
by rlgosnell on Dec 12, 2008 3:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Do you mean 3/33? The Indians paid 2/20.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he pretty much ran right out of the NL Central into the Indians arms. I don’t know if more money, even that much extra would have kept him here. Considering how quickly the market was working into his favor, he was an Indian. Personally, I think he’s picking the team and not the contract.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's how I felt about it.
It seemed like he found a good, fairly competitive team (ie, not the Rangers) who wanted him. Rather than deal with all the B.S. that goes along with being a free agent all off-season, he signed with a team he liked.
by spants on Dec 12, 2008 7:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
adding in the way he jumped into the market, he seemed to want to be well out of the NL central if not the NL altogether.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 8:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Bere
Anyone remember him? He was a journeyman starting pitcher for a bunch of teams through the 90’s and early 00’s. His last stop along the way was with the Cleveland Indians. He liked Cleveland so much he went to work for them after he retired. He just happens to be one of Kerry Wood’s best friends. Jason Bere + Goodyear, Az. training complex=Wood’s first choice (after Chicago)
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Dec 13, 2008 5:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Wood signing
is an infinitely better signing than the Fuentes signing would be. He’s better, signed for fewer years, younger, and was not offered arbitration.
by chuckb on Dec 12, 2008 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeesh
Calling the Wood signing better the signing Fuentes speaks well to how bad a signing Fuentes would be. JC Bradbury was very much against that move.
by lightbulb on Dec 12, 2008 8:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll agree that
$10 M per year is too much to spend on a closer. In that vein, I’d much rather use Perez and sign Randy Johnson. My only point really was that signing Wood to a 2 year deal is much better than signing Fuentes to a 3 year deal.
by chuckb on Dec 12, 2008 11:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fuentes 3year/ 30mil????
Does anyone know for sure what the asking price is for Fuentes? The way LaRussa was kissing butt yesterday, maybe the Cards are trying to low ball him. Mo already said he won’t go 11 mil per year. I have some doubt if they’ll go10 mil per year. How about a 2 year deal? That sounds more reasonable to me.
by bigmotors on Dec 12, 2008 3:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That what I was thinking
They were going for we really really really like you but we are poor approach.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone know for sure what the asking price is for Fuentes?
Only two people come to mind: Fuentes and his agent.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the article above
says the nats are “serious suitors” and that they would “go three years, $18M”, though the author admitted it was a completely made-up number.
If we could get him for close to that, I think it’d be a fine decision. It’s the 10-11M/year talk that is crazy.
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If they're in for 3 and 18
they’re not “serious suitors.”
by chuckb on Dec 12, 2008 7:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and if you notice generally the 10/11 million talk isn’t coming from any teams, just Fuentes and his agent. Every team linked to him says it’s too much.
he’ll sign for a bit less, how much and for who is up in the air.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 8:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lets just get Hoffman or Saito and use then go hard after Sheets.
by rlgosnell on Dec 12, 2008 3:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
What if Sheets wants 3-4 years?
I’m on board with the Sheets mantra, but everyone seems to pretend like there isn’t a huge range of $$$ and years that he might ask for and possibly get. Sheets is good at two years, but at three? Four?
by mojowo11 on Dec 12, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
I think we’re going under the assumption that he will sign for 2 years, so shame on us
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 5:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's look from Sheets' perspective
What if he thinks he will get healthy in a year or two? Wouldn’t that mean he would want to be able to sign a long term deal when clubs are less worried about his health, thus, getting more money? A 2 year deal could potentially just be a stepping stone to a much longer, more lucrative deal for a healthy Sheets.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 12, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well
if I were him, I’d sign with a team like the Cardinals for a slight paycut, because he’d be treated well by the fans, enjoy lot’s of baseball culture (or in Khalil Greene’s quote: “a storied baseball franchise” or something like that. also, I would disqualify teams that sucked last year (like the Yankees) and go with a team that I feel could push the team into the playoffs, a team with good offense and defense…. etc etc
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 6:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the yankees won 3 more games than us last year
and they had 47 starts from darrell rasner, carl pavano and sidney ponson (and another 17 from rookies who weren’t ready for MLB, who combined for a 7.45 ERA).
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2008 6:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
shit
I thought they weren’t that good last year. doh
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 6:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's because they finished third.
I got walloped for making fun of Toronto for sucking, and they finished fourth.
But for the money NY spends, they did suck.
by spants on Dec 12, 2008 7:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Treated "well enough"
if I were him, I’d sign with a team like the Cardinals for a slight paycut, because he’d be treated well by the fans, enjoy lot’s of baseball culture (or in Khalil Greene’s quote: "a storied baseball franchise" or something like that.
As cool as it’d be if this sort of thing really mattered, I don’t think it does when guys in their prime hit the free agent market. I think it’s one of those things where, from a fan’s perspective, we’d sign a 10-year contract for league minimum. But (sentence-starting conjunction alert!), Sheets is in line for some serious cash, and the kind of money he stands to make will let him see any city and any situation through rose-colored glasses.
by lightbulb on Dec 12, 2008 8:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1 year
If Sheets wanted to wait the market out, he would have accepted arbitration. He will sign for more than 2
"Live like you are going to die tomorrow. Learn like you are going to live forever." John Wooden
by MRCARD on Dec 13, 2008 1:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Except
He would get more money on a 1 year contract then he would in arbitration. In arbitration he could end up with much less when the arbitrator ends up siding with the Brewers.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Dec 13, 2008 9:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what thread were all the fireworks in?
i missed mon-wed. are they worth reading?
i’m still not a fan of Fuentes. i know chuck,az, & a lot of others have said he’s not as bad as i fear. i appreciate all the #‘s you all post that show he’s not really bad, but my gut just tells me he’ll explode if he shows up in the STL. the games i’ve seen him pitch the last two seasons give me absolutely no confidence in him. i can’t shake those feelings. yes i’ve seen him pitch very well. i don’t deny that at all. i’m just saying i’ve seen his bad side, and i fear that’s all we’ll see if he comes here. so if you add up giving up the pic & his salary, i still feel it is a very, very bad move for our beloved Cardinals.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2008 4:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I am just more afraid if we don't sign Fuentes
We will resign Izzy.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 5:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'd seriously rather have IZZY @1yr than blow a pick & millions on Fuentes
call me crazy, but i trust him a lot more than i’ll ever trust Fuentes. i guess it’s more of what i do know, than what i don’t know. IZZY’s supposedly 100% healthy, and if he is, for one more season i don’t know if there’s another closer out there on the market i’d trust more than him.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2008 6:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take
door number three
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Dec 12, 2008 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the donkey is SO going to pitch better than izzy, anyway.
by tom s. on Dec 12, 2008 6:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the one i saw in mexico had a wicked slider
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2008 7:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You got a scouting report?
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 12, 2008 7:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
uh,, no. sorry. i can't release those tapes
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Dec 13, 2008 12:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
call me crazy, but i trust him a lot more than i’ll ever trust Fuentes
OK – you’re crazy!
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 6:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
call me crazy, but i trust him a lot more than i’ll ever trust Fuentes
As long as I’ve got permission to say it: you’re totally bonkers.
by mojowo11 on Dec 12, 2008 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 7:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, everyone has permission to pile on.
but we’ve got all this good history with IZZY, and if it came down to him for 1 more year, or 3 years, millions of cash & a lost 1st rounder for Fuentes, i’d take IZZY every time.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2008 7:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, yeah
except that two out of the last three seasons he has stunk on ice and been one of the primary reasons we didn’t make the playoffs. TLR just can’t help himself enough to be trusted with Izzy.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Dec 12, 2008 7:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's the thing
is, if izzy could be delegated to mop-up duty, then so be it. but I don’t think Larussa has the guts to play the guy in that role… or didn’t last season anyway.
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 8:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he's been stunk on ice do to injury. he's supposed to be 100% healthy now
i completely agree that if he came back, TRL would ride him till one of his appendages fell off. when healthy though, he’s one of the best closers in the game. i’m taking the Dr’s & his word that he’s 100%. i probably shouldn’t because he is so stubborn to admit when he is hurt, but damnit if i don’t believe him. here’s an interview he did Thursday morning if anyone wants to hear his argument for pitching one or a few more years.
if you weigh everything, even the fact that TRL can’t be trusted with IZZY, giving up the pick + the cash for Fuentes in’t worth it.
also i’m not saying the Cards should sign IZZY instead of Fuentes. far from it. they should let YP & ApplesSauce fight it out in the spring. but if they are going to bring in a vet to close, they shouldn’t be stupid & give up the pick when they could have a better guy for a lot less. that’s all i’m saying.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Dec 13, 2008 12:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Izzy will not be better than Fuentes
Maybe cheaper but will not be better. If we re-sign Izzy than we probably have to let Puppy Kicker go.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 13, 2008 1:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh hell no. we can't let that happen. PK has to stay
i think IZZY is a better closer than Fuentes. i probably smoke too much crack, but when healthy i believe it to be so.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
by gdm426 on Dec 13, 2008 1:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.statcorner.com/pitcherRP.php?id=150118&team=COL&year=2008&leag=N_L
http://www.statcorner.com/pitcherRP.php?id=116414&team=SLN&year=2008&leag=N_L
Fuentes is also three years younger.
by astrostl on Dec 13, 2008 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Per ESPN: AJ to NYY
what do you folks make of this: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3765754
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:
by gocards62 on Dec 12, 2008 5:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
NY is dreaming if they think Andy Pettitte will accept $10 mil
plus the MLBPA will scream at him for giving that large a discount.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 12, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pettite is crazy though if he thinks he is going to get $16M
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can see him getting close to 14 to 15 mil.
He pitched over 200 innings last year. Made 16 mil….. doesn’t make sense to drop 37% salary “for the team”.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 12, 2008 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thought it was going to happen
Didn’t think he was going to go to Atlanta. He didn’t want to be a teams #1 pitcher
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does this make a Ankiel (+) for I. Kennedy more likely?
I mean, where is Hank Steinbrenner going to find enough money to make payroll?
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song:
by gocards62 on Dec 12, 2008 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
YES network.........enough said about where the $$$ comes from.
by ICbirdfan on Dec 12, 2008 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They had 90 million come off the payroll
Giambi, Mussina, Pettitte, Abreu, Farnsworth, Pavano made a lot of money.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 12, 2008 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wish Steinbrenner owned the Cardinals
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You don't wish we had a $200 Million dollar payroll?
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a different type of question IMO
All his money has not “bought” a championship in quite a while. A different owner with that kind of money….. yeah….. maybe.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Dec 12, 2008 5:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not worth
the additional band wagon fans that come along with a team full of overpaid all stars. My three most disliked teams, in order:
Cubs
Red Sox (jumped a spot after the world series)
Yankees
what’s in common? Ridiculous payroll & annoying fans
by STLRegalia on Dec 12, 2008 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair
The Cubs only started having a ridiculous payroll recently. The real reason to hate the Cubs is that…well, they’re the damn Cubs.
by mojowo11 on Dec 12, 2008 6:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sure
But i don’t want the ticket price that comes with a $200 million dollar payroll. I like to go to some games.
by Evilfrog on Dec 12, 2008 6:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are they that much more after standard cost-of-living type adjustments? I figure their payroll comes from their income, which is heavily influenced by TV and merchandising.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 6:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i believe i read that a standard box seat at the new yankee stadium
is $250.
by tom s. on Dec 12, 2008 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's the season-ticket discount price
you’ll pay more than that at the box office. I don’t think that 2009 ticket prices have been released yet for any team.
Here’s 2008, although a disclaimer in the article that linked to this article says that the yankees did not disclose luxury box prices so they aren’t included.
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2008 7:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OT: Box seats for the Blues are so cheap
I got 2 Box Seats with Food and Booze for $80 off Craigslist
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 7:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe you just said that
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't tell
if that’s sarcasm or actual disbelief in my distaste
by STLRegalia on Dec 12, 2008 6:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't tell either right now
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh wait
it was “I can’t believe you’d want Steinbrenner to own the team”. especially SteinJr
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 6:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i can't believe people
watch hockey :)
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Dec 12, 2008 7:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe
people watch soccer
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 8:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
North Carolina
beat Wake Forest 1-0 in the semi-final of the College Cup tonite!
It was a thrilling match :)
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 12, 2008 8:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the correct response is
“I can’t believe that people watch the Cubs”
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 8:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
heh
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 13, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
football* ;)
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 8:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Chuck James
was non-tendered and he’s lefthanded. Not sure he’d be willing to come out of the bullpen, but since he was a starter, the assumption is he can get both righties and lefties out.
by Toddius on Dec 12, 2008 5:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
he didn't really get anybody out last year, though ;)
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2008 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's a pretty extreme flyball pitcher
If I recall. I haven’t checked to verify but I think he is.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 12, 2008 6:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is pretty far off topic
but what do I need to do to make a card set with baseball player’s illustrations on the cards, and stats on the back (basically make a baseball card game or something like that)
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 6:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
thank you!
now, do I need some sort of license from MLB to sell them?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 6:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would say Yes
Since they tried trade marking box scores and all baseball related stats
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 7:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I figured as much
I just need to figure out how to address them (and the basics of the card game, beyond the stats)
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not a lawyer, but it seems like non-licensed games handle this with names like “Stalwart Pullups” instead of Albert Pujols, playing for the “Crimson Birds” and wearing #5.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 10:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry but the Burnett deal irks me
more than the CC signing probably because Burnett was in the wheel house of a few clubs and the Yanks just drive it up. even with a luxury Tax many oweners just sit on the profit. and dont use the money
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Dec 12, 2008 7:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
5/82 mil is an outrageous deal for a pitcher near guaranteed to miss at least 20% of that time
How is it disturbing that no one else topped it?
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 12, 2008 7:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is the biggest problem in baseball.
The fact that the Yankees can buy who they want with no worries about money while 75% of the MLB clubs have to stick to a budget is just plain unfair. I don’t care if New York is a bigger city than Kansas City, the spending level the Yankees/Red Sox have over the other teams in the AL has to stop at some point for the good of the League one would think.
I would think some of these owners would start to whisper “salary cap” at some point. Especially some of the American League owners. I don’t know how many of these owners can about winning but I would think at some point they will start to raise a stink because they can’t afford to pay the top stars over the Yankees.
I’m telling you, this is killing baseball slowly. The media focuses on the big two AL teams because of their outragious spending of stars and they get all the coverage. This is why World Series ratings tank when either the Yanks or Sox are not involved. MLB needs to do something soon or else they might as well contract about 4-6 teams because it’s only a matter of time before the fans in the cities of teams like Baltimore, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Toronto, ect. lose complete interest becuase their teams just can’t compete (this is already happening in some of these towns). The next couple of years will be interesting if the economy is still bad.
I don’t think it will happen in the next 5 years, but I do believe basball is heading down a raod where there will have to be a salary cap in place for a lot of teams to survive. If not there will have be some teams contracted or maybe even shut down completely.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 12, 2008 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
whats worse is the laughable Luxury tax
Owners getting money and then not spending it. The guy who owns the twins spends his money on the vikes..Look at the rays, they are a example of teams sitting on what little they could get from the tax, until they were sold they fixed it a bit and built through the draft, but now are signing those guys….
the cards dont have Yanks money but they do have more than they lead us to believe…
on MLB station on xm some guy(reporter) was stating teams not affected by econmoic times Yanks,Sox,Angels Mets, I think cubs(but they are being sold right?) and said wait for it maybe even the cardinals… I’m not saying they have money like the rest, but they could offer more…heres the problem though, they are sometimes compairable til the outrageous part begins. Think of how many gusy they are in on when they do decide to make offers, then are outbid by insanity..Burnett 2x
I had heard that the cards offered compariable money to Krod..it may have been an extra yr or so that got that done..
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Dec 12, 2008 9:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What makes me curious is
how many MLB team owners in these small markets actually care about putting a winning team on the field and care about making the playoffs for a real chance to win it all??
It makes me wonder because if there were quit a few small market owners that cared about winning and keeping a strong fanbase then I would think we would be starting to hear some whipsers about a salary cap soon. So far I am not hearing anything and it’s really starting to make me think that if this is the case then the sport is going to be in a world of hurt in 10 years or less. I mean if only the teams in the major markets (NY/Boston/Chicago/LA) can be the teams that can spend on the big money players and win then interest in baseball is going to become like the interest in the NBA & NHL pretty soon throughout middle America (which is poor). This is already starting (look at the World Series ratings this year and in 2006).
How many more years are the fan bases in Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Toronto, Texas, ect. going to continue to go to the games and spend money if their teams have no chance to compete? And do their owners even care?? So far they are not showing it by letting the current team spending system in MLB continue. But I guess as long as a team suprises every few years (Rays, Rockies, Marlins) then there will always be those that think the system is working great. But like I said, I think the road to a salary cap will come pretty soon. That is if some of these smaller market teams start to give a damn….right now they don’t seem to. I think this will change soon…or at least I hope so for the good of the game.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 12, 2008 9:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you talk about a Salary Cap than you probably should talk about a Salaly Floor also
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 9:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever you want to call it...something needs to be done.
I seriously think MLB is going to be in big trouble in the next 5-7 years if there isn’t a new spending system put in place. I guess they can contract 5-7 teams in the small markets and just make it a sport of just large maket cities. Baseball is becomming less popular in middle America more and more each year. We don’t see it as much because St. Louis is the rare middle America town that loves baseball and has a huge fanbase.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 12, 2008 9:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"Baseball is becoming
less popular in middle America more and more each year."
Do you have any reason to believe this is true? MLB attendance stats, percentage of kids playing little league ball, etc?
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2008 9:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
RATINGS for one
MLB Teams in middle America don’t draw ratings anymore. Why is this? Check the ratings for the 2006 World Series or this year’s World Series.
As for attendance we don’t see it because St. Louis thrives even though it’s a small market. But Kansas City, Cincinnati, ,Minnesota. Pittsburgh, Milwaukee (before last year) are not selling out on a regualr basis. With the poor economy it will get worse…..we’ll see.
Let’s see what happens in the next 5 years…I may be wrong but I don’t think things are as rosey as some of you guys think.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 12, 2008 10:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I should say "small market teams" instead of "Middle America".
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 12, 2008 10:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's because more people live on the Coasts
There are more Yankee and Boston fans. Of course they are going to get higher ratings in the World Series than some someone like the Brewers. But that’s because people on the East Coast don’t want to watch. Not because people in the midwest doesn’t want to watch thier team.
by Evilfrog on Dec 12, 2008 10:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s also representative of how the network markets as a whole. If all you do all year is pimp 5 or 6 teams and neither of them are in the world series, it’s hard to sell that to viewers who no little to nothing about the teams at hand and have no personal (read: fan) stake involved.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 10:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"If all you do all year is pimp 5 or 6 teams"
Agree… MLB needs this to stop.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 12, 2008 10:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think you may be confusing
mlb with espn.
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2008 10:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fox is the same way
It’s not just ESPN it’s the media in general.
MLB can learn a lot from the NFL on teams across the country getting coverage. They are doing a POOR job with it now.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 12, 2008 10:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I certainly didn't like it
That the Khalil Greene trade wasn’t even mentioned on baseball tonight the day it happened.
by Evilfrog on Dec 12, 2008 10:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You should change your avatar to this
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is a very
serious, battle-ready frog.
by spants on Dec 13, 2008 4:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course
because the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets or Cubs weren’t involved.
I know some think I’m talking out of my ass here, but MLB is really going to be in trouble (across the country that is… not on the East Coast) if some things don’t change.
MLB really needs to promote more teams, I really hope they do this with the MLB channel…but I have my doubts.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 12, 2008 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
fox is the worst on this
the game of the week is the best way to sell the game to non-fans. It’s a free game that’s on during lazy time on saturday. But it is ALWAYS either the yankees or red sox, unless you are in a very specific part of the country that happens to have the other game that fox bought.
They need to start putting on the teams that are performing well. The Yankees should not have been on national TV this october. Or at least should have been on less than, say the Phillies, Dodgers and Rays.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 11:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is true.
And the fact that MLB blacks everyone else out is a point in favor of the idea that MLB is effing the bunk here.
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2008 11:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and by october, I mean september
preview, I should hang out with you more.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
flex games
for mlb? i can handle that.
I wouldn’t mind seeing more primetime games as well. If Leno is considered cheap to put in primetime compared to some shows, do a month build up to the postseason by bringing some games in.
networks would do themselves justice if they can start building fervor that radio used to do IMO
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 11:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still thought that decreased ratings were contrasted by the media against record stadium attendance, indicating that it didn’t matter all that much outside of pride. All the laid-off workers might knock a dent in that attendance and merchandising, though.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 10:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i don’t have the numbers in front of me, but aren’t minor league teams getting a solid bump the past few years? a lot of those are midwestern based, and some quite rural in comparison.
I like going to minor league games, and while not all are as packed as the Pawsox I haven’t seen any that feels “empty”. Hell, Springfield has a solid base every time I’ve went there, and that’s as middle America as it gets.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 9:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Salary caps don't really help anything
look at how much salaray cap distortions have ruined basketball and football. I’d just as soon not import all of that into baseball.
Increase the luxury tax, yes. Include tv revenues in the calculation of a team’s revenue when calculating eligibility for revenue sharing? Hell yes to the seven hundredth power. Maybe even a Salary Floor, or a requirement that x% of revenue be invested int he team somehow.
But a salary cap is not the answer to this.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 9:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not saying a cap solves everything
cause if you dont spend wisely or spend at all a cap doesnt help greedy ownership not using money. It does spread talent though so they dont all land in one place…can you explain a salary floor?
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Dec 12, 2008 9:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a salary floor
is a minimum payroll that a team must have. I like the way the Marlins do some stuff, but there is a real problem in MLB when a team can have a payroll that is smaller than what they get from revenue sharing.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Dec 12, 2008 9:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t have an issue with it if any stadium work wasn’t paid by the tax payer. If you can build a team cheaper than what you get by being in the system, great. Use the extra funds to build your own fk’n stadium.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 9:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I mean, if your team is all about staying in front of the arb years and only signing fill ins to market contracts, it’s not a bad thing. Marlins aren’t an every year bottom feeding team, they do have 2 WS rings to their credit.
The system allows them to do that as it allows other teams to do the opposite, but I’m fully against a team getting a stadium without paying considerable amount.
Baseball is either a public resource and investment or a business, not both.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
totally agree.
I’d like to see a constitutional amendment preventing the building of sports franchises with public money, actually. That’s the only way to stop it, and the only consequences of it as far as I can see is that a large percentage of the money that goes to athletes will instead go to the paying-down of stadium infrastructure costs.
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2008 10:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
indeed.
and I’m ok with those consequences personally. I don’t care if they put the law into effect and then grandfather past deals if that has to be the situation.
It ends most threats to leave as well. If a team wants to move, then I guess they’ll be building a stadium and planning long term to move to a new city. Something that I think would be a good thing. Fans shouldn’t feel hostage to paying for infrastructure.
I had a good friend in college who was obsessed on designing baseball stadiums that “converted” into nfl stadiums. Same city franchises would do well to pool together on multievent infrastructure. They don’t have to be as bad as what we’ve seen in years past.
And if there’s any laws that prevent them pooling that I’m not aware of, then it needs to be addressed as well.
You get a monopoly and with no real oversight. Use the freedom accordingly or learn to behave under regulation.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 11:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you'd need to start attacking all race-to-the bottom economics
the sports team subsidies from public money is just one example of a phenomenon that happens in a whole lot of sectors of the economy.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 11:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would argue that not only does a cap not solve everything, it will just make things worse.
it will make contracts bizarre and obtuse, and it will make it impossible to keep players around.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 9:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if fans of Baltimore and Toronto feel the same way?
I think some views about being against a salary cap is because the Cards haven’t had to go up against a big spending team for the past 10+ years. If the Cubs continue their spending ways and dominate the division for a decade I wonder if opinions will change? And I’m not saying your opionion is wrong…just a thought.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 12, 2008 9:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not in my eyes (read: me personally)
If we can’t compete with one team or even two while having 100m to spend, we’re doing something quite wrong. Even considering the budget being small compared to other teams.
And while they complain about those teams dominating, they get a bump when one of those teams come to town. it also ads to the fanbase fodder by having a team or two who’s evil and $ only adds fuel.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 9:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
adds* even.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 9:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No. My view against the salary cap has to do
with how badly contract situations and team building work in the NBA and NFL, which is entirely due to the salary cap. When an Albert Pujols is worth 25 skip schumakers, but you can only spend in a certain way, the economics get completely messed up, and you end up with a giant mess of horribleness.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 11:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All that I"m saying
is that there are other ways to level the salary disparities that aren’t a salary cap. Revenue sharing isn’t a bad idea, it’s just implemented too small, and it doesn’t include tv revenue, so you get stupidity like the cardinals sending money to the Phillies.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 11:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hate NBA contracts
The fact that a guy like Rashard Lewis can get a max deal in the NBA says it all. You just have to be sort of good and have some team that REALLY wants you and BOOM you get paid more or less the same as someone awesome. Not really fair…I think players should make as much as a team is willing to pay them. I mean, it would be like Eric Byrnes getting a big pay….er….wait. He did. His WARG (Wins Above Replacement Grit) was 18, I think…
I also think teams that make catastrophic decisions should get burned, like the Royals throwing down a bunch of coin a few years ago on the corpse of Juan Gonzalez or the Giants paying Barry Zito $126 million to stink up the joint.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 13, 2008 1:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For radical outside the box changes
Note: ALL numbers have been POOMAed.
-A very heavy luxury tax (80 percent) at a certain cap say 110 million, jumps to 100 percent if exceeded the prior two consecutive years
-Salaries for players who have been with your team for longer than 6 years count at only 80% against the “cap”.
On the other end:
-Increase the minimum salary to 750k
-Get rid of the 3 arbitration years (dumbest most no-pun-intended arbitrary structure ever)
-After 3 years service time, three years restricted free agency similar to the NBA’s—-for 3 year service timers: other teams can make 3 year offers which the player’s team can match the AAV on with a single year deal and the player’s team is also not limited to contract length
-A team must spend 75% of its payroll with non-revenue sharing money.
Results IMO:
-Big spending teams can’t possibly survive 200m payrolls while paying 80m/100m in luxury tax
-Bottom payroll teams have to actually invest in their teams and can’t just sit with a bunch of league min players for a long time. Well they can, but then they don’t get to dip into revenue-sharing.
-There’s strong incentive to be under the cap at least once in 3 years
-Players actually get paid big money before having to spend six frickin years in the majors getting the actual producers more money.
-FAs more valuable due to the increased league min, but unrestricted FAs getting these bloated contracts because of the disgusting salary structure ends (the value of a win is ~2.5 mil yet FA’s get 4.5 per???)
-It ends up fixing the draft (which is simply a HUGE problem) without going into a bogus slotting system; drafted players are de-valued due to the earlier free agency/higher league minimum so the bottom teams can afford the top talent in the draft.
And feel free to rip this apart.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 12, 2008 10:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i won’t rip it apart, but i disagree with your assessment of arbitration, given the system at hand. players getting more money as their service time increases makes sense, and there isn’t an easy way to get to 40/60/80 percent of market value without an arbitrary arbitrator.
restricted fa is subject to the jon koncak problem. that doesn’t even address the issue of what happens when an evan longoria-class player gets to three years. it’s unfair to longoria that he doesn’t get the benefit of fa until six years into his mlb career, but letting tampa retain his services for that long gives a face to the franchise that that simply wouldn’t exist if the rays were forced to compete financially with the yankees and red sox that quickly.
i think i would tie revenue-sharing directly to fa signings. for example, a team with a $50 million payroll in a small market would be subsidized only when it added a big contract, either by extension, by trade or by fa signing. a team with a $125 million payroll in a big market would pay a tax.
by greenback06 on Dec 12, 2008 11:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's why you give the built in advantages to the Rays
They can give Longoria say a 6 year deal whereas the Sox/Mets/Tigers(they both had a higher payroll than the Sox!)/Yankees can only go to three. And even if those teams blow away the AAV, the 1-year deal would probably be worth it even still. Even if they completely knock the Rays’ deal out to the point where they can’t come close to matching it, it’s setting those teams up to be heavily penalized by the cap resulting in more money for the Rays for the next guy. Not to mention that the big market teams couldn’t even do that indefinitely without costing themselves (and contributing to the revenue fund) an unbelievable amount of money.
The 40/60/80 system doesn’t really end up saving MLB any money and as you said it’s not even fair to the players, it just re-distributes the money from those arby players to the 30 year old FAs which makes no sense.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 13, 2008 3:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
am I the only one that cares less about a cap than I do about the bullshit blackout rules?
I can go on a mile long rant about blackouts
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 9:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
er, didn't mean to reply directly to you Valatan. My bad.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 9:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hate the blackout rules too, though
especially the ones that make it impossible to get a game in a certain city, no matter what the approach.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 9:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
preach it brother
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Dec 12, 2008 9:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the nba is a great example
your point about the nba is particularly on point. the first contingency that seems to arise in a trade scenario is how to make the salary cap issues work. espn even has a whole trading machine which shows you how difficult it would be to obtain your favorite player-even for a fair talent for talent trade.
with this in mind and assuming that big market teams push their payrolls to the limit, how can a small market team trade a pending free agent in his last expensive arb years? there won’t be any flexibility for big market teams to make trades with uneven salary exchanges. the small market team will be less inclined to make the trade if they have to kick in money just to get cap approval. it creates artificial barriers for the small market teams to replenish their farm systems.
unrelated to the nba but relevant to caps is the idea of owners hoarding the money. a cap limits the costs of a baseball payroll. this downward pressure on salaries stifles the market for players. they may not be able to sign a deal paying them fair value or they may not even be able to sign/stay with the team of their choice based on a cap crunch. a cap just brings in way too many side effects and unintended consequences to be a worthwhile solution.
by sra on Dec 12, 2008 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well i have heard as mentioned about
the twins…that they are called small market but the dude has lots of cash he just spends it on the vikes. In SD they are tearing apart the franchise cause….he’s getting divorced.
pre-scandal the best thing for the pirates would have been selling to Cuban, but they relented…he did turn around that laughing stock in the NBA with a cap mind you.
I don’t think the owners(some) care about winning as much as profit which is ironic cause winning brings more cash.
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Dec 12, 2008 9:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t hear the Padres/divorce angle, heh.
by astrostl on Dec 12, 2008 10:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well, it is working, pretty much
it isn’t a level playing field, but the unlevel-ness gives it a david and goliath feel that is pretty compelling as long as david wins occasionally (and he actually does win most of the time). Remember, the average team only makes a world series appearance every 15 years. NY didn’t even make the playoffs, with a 200M payroll, and though they’ll probably be better next year, they are no sure thing.
Most of the teams you mentioned here have just made terrible decisions over the years that keep them from competing. A competent GM would have had Pittsburgh or KC in the playoffs at least once and probably a couple of times this decade, even with a $50M payroll. tampa bay played in the world series this year, and look poised to challenge for it again for at least a couple of years.
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2008 9:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"competent GM [+ Front Office] " says it all. Rays used the draft to get better while being cheaper.
Pirates? Royals? All had draft picks too (especially pirates post bonds) and still suck. Though they kicked our ass quite a bit this year.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 9:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To finish my whole thought on this
If MLB keeps letting the Yankees/Red Sox get all the coverage and let them spend whatever they want and in turn are the only teams to get ratings, then I don’t see how this is helping baseball. It is quickly making MLB as a whole a two team business. And to me that’s not smart business. Think the NFL would be as popular as it is if the same two teams on the East Coast are shown every week and get a majority of the coverage? The NFL doesn’t let that happen and they are better off for it. MLB hasn’t realized this yet…but they will if things continue as is and World Series ratings tank even worse if one of the “Big 2” are not invloved.
MLB needs to start getting more than 2-3 teams more coverage with the national media and level the team spending to some degree…for it’s long term health in my opinion.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 12, 2008 10:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
now that is a general approach I can agree with (see post above).
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 10:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm thinking more in the terms
of fans of these smaller markets starting to not give a damn about baseball anymore because either their owners don’t give a damn or because their teams can’t afford to outbid the Yankees for a Sabitha (Milwaukee). No salary cap is great for fans of New York, Boston, and the other big market teams that have the money to spend. But I really think we are going to see the sport dry up in the smaller markets soon if the fans don’t see any reason to spend money on their team because they can’t compete. I really think cities like Baltimore, Toronto and Kansas City is going to start seeing this soon.
We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
by KYCards on Dec 12, 2008 9:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
to think i thought
against doing a fan post before i posted my priginal post and you replied and it snowballed…haha
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Dec 12, 2008 11:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it could be worse
boston and new york could be in different divisions. with the wild card, there are enough playoff slots to keep some mid markets in a race till september. i think many of these teams define their success as reaching the playoffs, not the world series. it is a serious indictment of management that the red sox and yankees are not in the playoffs every year with their budgets. the only things that keeps some parity in baseball are the arbitration rules and the fact that draft choices can’t be traded. the salary cap leagues don’t have those features. this means good decision makers have a chance in baseball, without a direct salary cap.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Dec 12, 2008 11:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm taking suggestions
for topics on my beer and baseball blog btw
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2008 8:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Easy
Topic 1: Smooth Busch beer or Easy-drinkin’ Busch Light? WWJD – What would Jack Do?
by lightbulb on Dec 12, 2008 8:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And don't forget
Bud Light has drinkability
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Dec 12, 2008 8:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
now repeat that a few times, then come back in a few weeks and start saying what drinkability actually means. heh.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 8:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i just thought it was funny that they promoted “drinkability” for a few weeks then released new ads to define what they actually meant by drinkability. Talk about dumbing down a concept to your base.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 9:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it's mostly hilarious
because the stuff is much less drinkable than pretty much any other beer on the market.
I think a study into the relationship between a beer’s quality and the amount spent on advertising would show there is a definite relationship. If you have to advertise your beer every 3 minutes in order to sell it, it’s probably not very drinkable…
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2008 9:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
highly agree
i haven’t had a bud or similar for years. I tend to go for ale and micro myself.
matter in fact i think the last one I had was wasted in a ‘red beer’ to help from a hangover before class in college. sigh
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 9:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They're ads work at least in the college level I can tell you that
I can’t tell you how many people I know (especially from rural areas no offense just observation) who very literally think Bud and/or Bud Light are the best beers on the market. I’m dead serious. Best beer quality in the world.
I try to bring some sense of reality into the discussion by asking “in what other industry is the mass produced, lower-end priced product the best quality?” but that generally only works to a small degree. The marketing jobs AB and Miller have done on this country have been stunningly effective.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 12, 2008 9:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hate myself-----------"their ads"************
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 12, 2008 9:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When you can pimp wazzup for over a year as an ad approach and it works, you’ve hit on something. Nothing beats Spud MacKenzie in my eyes though.
I usually keep a few bottles of quality in the fridge just as give aways for friends who can’t let go of those years.
Couple of their wives really got onto me when I signed them up for a beer of the month club, since boys night out costs more.
Ah well, such is life.
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 9:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Many master brewers
praise Budweiser. It’s actually a very old, good recipe. It’s just that it’s not as complex as a micro-brew or other types of craft beer. And, if you think about the varying tastes of hops, barley, and the like, the fact that Budweiser continues to be consistent in its flavor is pretty remarkable.
Totally off topic, but I really like this article.
by spants on Dec 12, 2008 9:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and drinking the same old
same old gets, well, old.
by spants on Dec 12, 2008 9:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not bad beer.
Making a beer that has mass appeal is pretty remarkable.
by Evilfrog on Dec 12, 2008 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Like Frog said
It’s not bad. It’s not a good beer either.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 12, 2008 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree on Bud
I think of all the cheap beers it’s about the best.
Interestingly it is a stolen recipe. Adolphus Busch, THE Busch of course, did a brewery tour in Austria and Germany to get ideas to improve A-B’s (then just E. Anheuser Brewing Co.) awful brew. He found one he liked in a town that has a nearly un-spellable name but used to be called Budweis. It was brewed by a crew of monks, and Busch managed to wrangle most of the recipe out of them. He then came back to St. Louis, brewed some up for his father-in-law, Eberhardt Anheuser, and that is what they made. Guess what they called it…Budweiser. Within a few years the company was Anheuser-Busch, Anheuser died, and Busch won an ugly battle with his wife’s family to keep the company in Busch hands, where it remains to this very day…
That’s the story anyway….
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 13, 2008 1:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
that’s one of the worst ad campaign ideas I’ve ever seen
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 13, 2008 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do they sell MGD at cubs games?
this local(portland) radio rip off of Bob and tom does harry carry who more sounds like Will ferrell doing harry carry. And he talke dabout drinking bud…i almost called or emailed to say he was wrong but thought i’d verify
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Dec 12, 2008 9:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
how about changing Busch Staduims name
Snice it no longer is a St. Louis company. And they are laying of people just to pay for the takeover.
But im bitter. I actually wrote up a fan post on the subject a few weeks ago. And didn’t post it because after i read it a few times i felt it was a little to political for VEB.
by Evilfrog on Dec 12, 2008 8:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"InBev Stadium" has a nice ring to it
Sadly, A-B bought (and now InBev owns) the naming rights and all of the associated privileges such as use of team logo in advertisements and advertising during broadcasts, etc, through 2025.
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2008 9:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"Stella Artois field"
“Beck Park”
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Would they have to water the field with aged piss to keep it authentic?
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 12, 2008 9:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think ABInBev
should do the right thing and sell the naming rights. I only wish Flying Dog was based in St Louis.
“In Heat Wheat Field” would be the best named stadium in the world of sports
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Dec 12, 2008 9:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Schafly Field?
I like it.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Dec 12, 2008 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can get on bored with this.
Snice it’s my beer of choice.
by Evilfrog on Dec 12, 2008 10:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope you're not "bored
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 13, 2008 1:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't type
I hope you’re not “bored” is what I meant to type. I’d imagine you’re actually on board.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 13, 2008 1:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If only the sign says
Schlafly Field*
*not associated with Phillis Schlafly
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Dec 12, 2008 11:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Margaritas
make e forget how to spell.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2008 10:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you can post it over on 4B
the name of the beer and baseball blog I’m starting up
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 13, 2008 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Man, the Yankees are just amazing...
Jeez, our economy is in as as our relief pitching was last year, and the Yankees have spent 250 million already in a week on two people.
I really hope that we pick up Sheets. If Carpenter stays healthy(Big IF) and the rest of the
staff pitches decently, we should have at least 90 wins yea? Fuentes isnt worth 10 million a year for less than 100 innings a year. Spend it on someone who will pitch at least 160! There’s no guarantee that he will even work for 3 years. Sheets is younger, more necessary of a need, and it makes the Brewers mad, so why not :D
by Taskmaster on Dec 12, 2008 10:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Better them spending money
than hording it. Now CC and AJ can go out and buy a bunch of crap and keep other people employeed also.
by Evilfrog on Dec 12, 2008 10:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What is going on
in Houston. Ty Wigginton was non tendered today today despite posting a 285/350/526 line as Houston’s starting third sacker. What makes it even more confusing is there is no obvious replacement anywhere to be found. Ed Wade says difficult decisions had to be made concerning payroll. really, ed, didn’t you just give money to Mike hampton and Darin Ernstad?
Acquire Boof Bonser. I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.
by Dave Barry on Dec 12, 2008 10:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
*Knock*
The sound of the Twins getting excited
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 11:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no doubt
much as I respect Ed Wade’s refusal to give up, this is an insanely awful decision.
they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, they don't play drums
by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2008 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Telling me they couldn't get a bag of baseball for Wigginton
God I bet the Dodgers would of liked to have him over Blake and you know the Twins are thanking the lord about now
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 12, 2008 11:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I was thinking
I'm Glad I'm not an Astros Fan
by Dave Barry on Dec 12, 2008 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know it’s past time to even think about it, and it’s not likely to happen anyways.
But why didn’t we pick him up? Yeah we have glut, but it’s not like we would have been stuck with him for long anyways so the arb wouldn’t have mattered. And we’d have 3 3b of various degrees to market.
So happens that the most teams doing bidding for 3b this year have reasonable depth in the pitching department.
Though we may have pissed off a few MLB teams in the process, I have no issue hoaring 3b talent for pitching
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe the cardinals are going to trade craig to them
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 13, 2008 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or freese I mean
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 13, 2008 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
After this past week, are there any other can of worms
left to open?
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 12, 2008 11:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Tino is making a comeback
as a closer and Mo is looking into it
you read it here first
One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.
by AdjustedExpectations on Dec 12, 2008 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But I hear Ron Gant is willing to throw for less!
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...