Yadi's Gold Glove
by chuckb on Nov 6, 2008 7:00 AM EST
in St. Louis Cardinals News
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PrintAs we all know by now, Yadi won his first Gold Glove yesterday. I’m happy for him, of course. I do believe that he is the best defensive catcher in the NL, and probably the game. Nevertheless, his defense this year was lacking in comparison w/ his defense in previous years.
As the table in the first link points out, Yadi committed more errors this year than ever before. His CS% was the lowest of his career and his WP + PB per game was the highest of his career. All this does not mean, however, that he was worse than any other catcher in the league. Perhaps it’s true that he’s set such a high standard that he can have his worst defensive season and still be the best in the league. I hope that’s the case.
Compared to his peers, Yadi’s CS% was 3rd in the NL – his brother, Bengie, finished 2nd. Jason freaking Kendall finished first. Can anyone believe that? It’s true. WP + PB/G? 4th in the NL behind Russell Martin, Brian McCann, and Kendall. Only Martin made more errors than Yadi; McCann had 9 as well. There’s enough evidence to tell me that catchers do not have a material impact on ERA. Nevertheless, Yadi’s ERA was 4.22 – 6th in the NL. Like I said, I attribute that to our pitching staff and not to Yadi but if you’re looking for a compelling reason why Yadi is the best defensive catcher in the NL, that ain’t it.
Sky Kalkman over at beyond the boxscore evaluated the best catchers in baseball a few days ago. Now, Sky’s evaluations included offensive numbers as well but, by using the table toward the end of the thread, you can pretty easily determine Yadi’s defensive ratings versus his peers. He’s basing his evaluations on the aforementioned PB/WP rates and SB/CS ratio as calculated by Justin Inaz’s total value spreadsheet. Compared to other catchers in the NL, Yadi ranks 5th defensively – behind…guess who… Kendall, Chris Snyder, Bengie, and Soto. So far I’ve seen nothing to indicate that Yadi was the best defensive C in the NL.
So let’s go to bill james online to look at John Dewan’s fielding bible awards. When comparing the rankings of the so-called "experts" – Yadi finished first going away. 5 of the 9 experts chose Yadi as the best catcher, not just in the NL, but in baseball. Yadi finished first in Tom Tango’s fan poll. Two experts had him 2nd in baseball. John Dewan, founder of the Fielding Bible Awards, had Yadi 8th. All of those plaudits gave Yadi his 2nd straight Fielding Bible Award.
The Fielding Bible Awards do a pretty damned good job of selecting the best fielders in the league. Look at that list – some really good fielders on that list, including a first baseman who deserved a Gold Glove, BTW. (It wouldn’t be an offseason, I guess, w/o a Card being snubbed for a major award.)
Now I don’t see a clear cut, most deserving catcher from this list. Molina’s got a great reputation and it’s well-earned for his defensive work so far in his career, but I see nothing that tells me that he was the most deserving candidate this year. Was this a "make-up call" for last year’s snub? Was it more of a lifetime achievement award based on his reputation? Maybe to both. Maybe voters fell back on Yadi simply b/c no one else stood out. The thing that stands out to me, however, is that Albert was the more deserving gold-glover. I’m glad for Yadi. It’s about time he got one and I can’t point to anyone who was obviously snubbed by his selection but he wasn’t clearly deserving either.
On another note, Toronto claimed Kelvin Jimenez on waivers. I find this troubling. Who’s Tony going to turn to when we’re down 6 runs in the 5th inning? Who’s going to continue to throw batting practice while Aaron Miles warms up down in the pen? Can we expect such futility from Brad Thompson or even Mark Worrell? I think not. Mo – you’re on notice for this one.
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported that there’s been some discussion between the Cards and Braves about Kelly Johnson but that the Cards interested in giving up Ryan Ludwick in order to get him. I’m glad to hear that. Johnson’s a nice player but I really think that Ludwick’s worth considerably more than Kelly Johnson. If Johnson were a SS – now we’re getting somewhere.
And, oh yeah, Carp had surgery on his elbow yesterday. The good news is that it’s not related to his shoulder problems. Boy, that’s a relief!
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Man
Even in the link you posted about the ludwick-johnson deal, they guy says it was a deal that made sense for both teams.
Am I completely missing something? I mean come on, Ludwick is more valuable that Johnson by a pretty good margin….It just never made any sense to me.
I think chuckb may be right about this being a make-up call for Yadi. But like the man said….take it however you can get it
Another player
There was talk among the commenters at MLBTraderumors of adding a pitching prospect. If it was Johnson plus decent pitching prospect for Ludwick, I would definitely consider it.
+1
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by Futility Infielder on Nov 6, 2008 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
heh
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
Just went over to Talking Chop
and propsed the whole idea of adding a pitching prospect, and they seemed to think that if its Johnson for Ludwick, they would have to kick in a decent pitching prospect as well. Then they suggest Lillibridge and Johnson for Ludwick and Kennedy, no money. I might be interested in that deal.
that deal sounds perfect to me
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Escobar
I also read that the Cards are interested in Escobar or Johnson and that the Braves might need one of them to trade for Peavy and won’t be trading both. I would think that if they miss out on Peavy we could possibly get Escobar for Ludwick, that deal I would do if they threw in more on their side he is almost the same player as Johnson, slightly higher OBP due to a higher BA but roughly the same OPS in the end anyway. The main difference being position. I am also of the belief that Ludwick is still unproven. He has had all of one healthy season, is this his best season, will he get injured again, will he stay healthy and get better? We just don’t know, then again both of these guys are younger and unproven too. If the interest in Ankiel is real though I would do an Ankiel for Escobar deal straight up.
Ankiel for Escobar would be a steal given their contract status and value.
They may want a minor leaguer as well but the Cardinals should jump at that. I’d have to think long and hard about swapping Ludwick for Escobar as well.
Escobar
might be the more attractive target. If it was Ludwick for Escobar, i think that I would still want to have them give something else back.
Say the Braves went for this
could Kozma or Barden move to 2B and fill that hole in a year or two?
"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley
by Futility Infielder on Nov 6, 2008 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
i might have to agree with you on both counts (jump at ankiel, consider ludwick)
escobar is surprisingly close to johnson as a hitter—better on base, worse slugging. i don’t know much about johnson’s defense, but i’ve read at VEB that it’s enough of a drag to make his total value comparable to adam kennedy. i do know that escobar compares favorably to izturis in OOZ and RZR. i’m quite a novice with defensive stats though.
It depends on what you mean
by “compares favorably”. Similar, yes, but not quite as good.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
true. the question in my opinion is whether it's close enough.
much has been made about the fact that kelly johnson is only marginally better than adam kennedy, because of how good kennedy’s defense is and how mediocre johnson’s is. escobar is almost as good a hitter as johnson. he might be almost as good a fielder as izturis. this makes him much more valuable, doesn’t it? he’s also younger.
yes.
As far as “value to the team” goes, we also don’t have an SS for 2009, so he’d be bigger improvement to our team than KJ.
the enemy's gate is down.
and given his team control and cost effectiveness
he also has “organizational value” as well, from a development and a drafting prospective. Maybe we can start to see the words high upside at that position.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
Johnson shot down by StL
By David O’Brien
November 4, 2008 9:15 PM | Link to this
You in the KJ camp apparently needn’t worry about him going to St. Louis for Ludwick. The Kelly part of that equation was shot down by someone on the St. Louis side.
However, the Braves are interested in Ludwick. Ankiel, I’m not as sure about, but I think they’ve discuss him with the Cards, too.
By N8
more accurate
sorry for the spam but this link is direct
http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/braves/entries/2008/11/04/braves_serious.html#comment-196769803
Bet they are still talking
So Atlanta asked for Ludwick and it sounds like we countered with Ankiel. Atlanta declined. Gotta think it’s not over. Middle infield is a big need for us and we have lots of other trading chips not named Ryan Ludwick.
johnson for ludwick has the same chance as johnson for brendan ryan.
david o’brien, check your answering machine, comedy central has been calling.
Ludwick for either one of the Braves MIFs
is not close to an even exchange. The Braves don’t appear to have any particularly appealing pitching prospects that are MLB ready, so I don’t know what they can get done. People need to understand that Ludwick was one of the top 5-6 OFs in all of MLB in 2008.
Most of the people who think Ludwick is a fluke, probably thought Pujols regress after his rookie year, too. I think it is a pretty safe bet that most guys who OPS .966 in their first full season manage to be pretty decent for a number of years.
It should take quite a haul to get the Ludder given his cost-controlled status.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
I’ll agree that straight across it’s not even, but Esco was 2nd in the fielding bible this year in +/- . Add in his bat and position it’s a strong starting point. They also have some left handed arms that while might not be ready for next year, will give us nice depth going forward. A right hander to keep an eye on is Pruneda 100 mph with a ground ball rate that would make our defense sing.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
4437 professional plate appearances by ludwick
……………..PA……………………………………RC/G
minors…..3116…..270 / .345 / .501 / .846 ……5.93
mlb………1321…..273 / .345 / .512 / .857…….6.40
i like the consistency. the continued development. 4437 PA is a large sample size.
he had a spike year, good for him.
his arb1-arb3 yrs won’t be cheap, but .900 ops players never are. (er-uh allstar, too) :)
more from that same blog...
st. louis didn’t say they didn’t want johnson…
They quashed it because they haven’t had KJ-for-Ludwick discussions. Braves have expressed interest in Ludwick, I just don’t know if they’ve gotten to point of giving St. Louis names of guys they might trade for him.
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
Agree
that this was a make-up call for last year when Yadi clearly deserved the Gold Glove. (He’s a little too young for a lifetime achievement award just yet.) So, in my eyes, he IS deserving of the award because he should already have two anyway.
When does Pujols get a makeup call?
The guy gets jobed on either the GG or MVP almost annually.
But at least
the Mang has one GG……. and one MVP. But he should have multiples of each. So, you’re right, he got jobbed.
give pujols 2 gold gloves next year
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
me too
I mean, I like the way you think too
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
I am not sure on how you could figure this out but...
i wonder how many runners could not go 1st-3rd on a single or 1st-Home on a double because they didnt get a good enough secondary lead for being afraid of Yadi picking them off first if they wondered too far? it may have never happened, though i doubt that, but there is definitely some value in preventing runners from taking that extra base. Using my eyes only, Yadi would have to be one of the (if not the) best at that.
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." -Rogers Hornsby
I'm not sure how accurate it would be and I'm surely not going to try and do this
1). Assign every player speed scores
2). Calculate the average % (successes per opportunities) of 1st to 3rd or 1st to homes for each speed score against all catchers in the league
3). Calculate the average % versus Molina
I think the speed scores would be interesting and important in determining the quality of the baserunners that are facing the catcher.
yeah...
i think i will stick to just assuming Yadi is the best…you are never disappointed that way…
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." -Rogers Hornsby
I'll donate 50 hypothetical internet dollars to anyone with the retrosheet Skillz to pull that one off
Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist
ill throw in 3 HID's too
the economy isn’t what it used to be…
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." -Rogers Hornsby
Sean Smith or MGL or Tango
probably already has some of those things built. I know MGL uses speed scores and I think smith does as well.
I know the speed score thing
But having that score and then doing a sort of runner advancement +/- system gets complicated IMO very quickly.
Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist
I think they do something like that for outfielder arm ratings
My understanding was the arm ratings in SFR for example were based on a system like that. I’ll have to check though.
Yeah you're right about that with the arm ratings
But there’s gonna be a trillion confounding factors for a catcher e.g. outfielder’s arms, park effects, etc.
Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist
That's my basic point
regarding all attempts to “objectively” rate catchers defensively. Like no other position in baseball, most of what a catcher does defensively is very dependant on confounding variables.
Even the attempts to debunk the long held belief that catchers affect pitching performance simply cannot rule out countless confounding variables and/or small sample size biases. I know many are convinced by those attempts, but the ones I’ve seen really don’t amount to much if you spend some time thinking of all the other things that could muddle the results. (personally I think a catcher can greatly affect pitching performance, mostly through a pitcher’s comfort with a catcher, which doesn’t necessarily reflect his skill – also a catcher’s ability or inability in framing pitches can be important)
there aren't many plays in baseball
that don’t involve multiple players. For instance having Pujols or Derrek Lee playing first makes a big difference in the defensive metrics of the other infielders. Aramis Ramirez plus Prince Fielder wouldn’t be pretty – with Derrek Lee he does pretty well. Heck, Rickie Weeks plus Albert might be pretty good – well, better.
Yadi's down year
I’m going to try and resist a lengthy post regarding all of the unquantifiable thing a catcher does defensively.
Generally, I’ll agree that this was Yadi’s worst defensive year. I do think he was still the best defensive catcher in the league and probably in baseball this year. Here we have 1) a make up for him being snubbed last year (and the year before) and 2) no clear other candidate that really is in Yadi’s league defensively.
As far as defensive stats for catchers – they (for the most part) are uniquely dependant on other players, mostly the pitchers. A wp + pb rate will obviously go up if you have pitchers that thrown tons of wild pitches (not saying that happened to Yadi) – while a good catcher can stop some balls that might have been a wp, there is only so much he can do.
Regarding sb%, that can be a very misleading stat. First, most sbs are stolen off the pitcher. Second, if you have a defensive reputation like Yadi’s, teams and players will only try to steal if they are very confident they can get the bag off the pitcher. Conversely a catcher with a poor reputation may get a deceptively high percentage (Jason Kendell, I’m looking at you) because teams will run wild on them until they prove they can actually stop ANYONE from running.
In short, I greatly respect the improvements Jason Kendell showed behind the plate this year. He had a carreer year defensively. But I would be shocked if very many people who know much about catching would call Jason Kendell one of the best defensive catchers in the game as some of these stats and metrics indicate. His presence at the top of those lists alone shows that they aren’t very accurate in gauging a catcher’s overall effectiveness defensively.
by fltfire on Nov 6, 2008 9:50 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Catcher's value in controlling the running game
I agree with Chuck’s post that Yadi may not have been as outstanding as usual defensively this year, but good enough for the GG. However, it got me thinking whether there may be a better way of evaluating a catcher’s value re: controlling the running game.
I find it hard to believe that Jason Kendall has more value than Yadi in this respect despite his superior CS%. One statistic that shows this is the fewer attempts that were made on Yadi, but this still doesn’t show the whole picture. A slightly different way of evaluating a catcher’s performance may be totaling his WPAs for CS and SB. I went over to Fangraphs, but couldn’t work out if it is possible to get a run down of these stats for each individual catcher.
Examples of how WPA may be a better way of looking at the running game:
17th May 2008 Cards vs Rays
Yadi catches 3 runners trying to steal for total +0.188, and picked off Longoria for +0.038. He also allowed B.J. Upton to steal in the first for -0.009, giving him a total of +0.217 for the game. What this shows is that a stolen base in the first is unimportant when compared to three CS and a PO in the same game.
An example of Yadi’s value in catching runners late in a close game (when SBs are more important):
27th May 2006 Cards vs Padres
Yadi caught Dave Roberts stealing in the seventh inning of a one run game for + 0.126, and picked off Brian Giles to end it in the ninth for a +0.160.
Now, Kendall’s CS may have been just as valuable as Yadi’s this year, but his greater number of SB may mitigate this, especially if he was being run on in crucial spots (an example of the possible value of a stolen base is Dave Roberts’ famous one in the 2004 WS which was worth +0.106).
Anyway I hope this makes sense, and if anyone could tell me whether it is actually possible or not to search for these stats on Fangraphs it would be much appreciated. Oh, and Pujols getting jobbed again is quite ridiculous.
by UKcardsfan on Nov 6, 2008 9:53 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
great questions
I’d love to see that done, but I don’t know of any way to do it. Also, it might not tell us what we want to hear due to the bizarre propensity of the 2008 team to allow advances on defensive indifference in the 9th inning and due to the fact that so few people ran on yadi in critical situations…
the enemy's gate is down.
Anyone else think......
the way they choose Gold Glove winners is stupid? The majority of the time it goes to the best offensive player………..Molina has his best offensive year and he wins………its not a coincidence……
"Even when the rain falls, Even when the flood starts rising, Even when the storm comes, I am washed by the water!" -NeedToBreathe
welcome top the party...
there are chips and guacamole on the table and beer in the fridge…
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." -Rogers Hornsby
D'oh!
Welcome to the party…see what happens when you try to be too smart…
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." -Rogers Hornsby
sad but true
i remember thinking earlier in the season “yadi finally figured out that if he hits better he’ll win a GG.” apparently the GG, like the MVP, is often reserved for a “break out” offensive season. hence, adrian gonzalez beats albert pujols. nuts to that!
forget the beer, where's the tequila & whiskey?
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
yep
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
It's all about popularity and reputation
GG, MVP, Cy Young. It has little to do with actual on-the-field performance. Honestly you’d think the sportswriters never went to an actual game but only watched the ESPN highlights.
Proud sponsor of the Official 2008 StL Cardinal theme song: "Beautiful Day" by U2
There's obviously no method that make people happy
Have the managers and coaches do it? No way.
How about the players? They know less than the managers.
What about the sports writers? They’re stuck in the 1920s and can’t grasp statistics.
Okay then, I guess it’s up to the fans….. Uh……..
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
just a thought
how about the commish assembles a pannel of the top baseball analyses websites like dewan, bill james, etc
by Walking Underwear on Nov 6, 2008 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
standing out from the stats
This thread with SleepyCA and fltfire (sp?) sums up my thoughts.
I’m increasingly convinced that this year Yadi was hampered by most of the bullpen and many of the MIs. Don’t his defensive stats depend on who’s handling the ball before and after him? I still can’t get over watching he and Iz2 practicing a textbook pick-off move at least ten times, only to have Iz2 flub the exact same move in the next inning. I have no solid proof behind it, but that’s like saying Albert won’t get an MVP because he couldn’t pitch us into the playoffs. If you have fewer runners going because of Yadi’s rep, or pitchers who take ages to get rid of the ball, don’t those on-field quirks distort the stats? I agree that his stats were down, but the guy just changed his conditioning and center-of-gravity— I expected adjustments, and by the time he was hitting his stride, he was out in the last month.
Granted, the GGs are subjective and partly a yearbook popularity contest. (This best be the last time Albert’s robbed this year. I swear he’s going to stoop to food bribes before anyone notices his flawless play.)
If that’s so, then I know when Yadi won his, and it’s the epitome of small sample size. June 15, 2008.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Albert's so good at defense
he makes it look easy, so no one notices
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Gold Glove
Don’t forget the award is an offensive award awarded do the best defender! lol
yeah
they really should change the name, heh
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Pujols is Spanish for "One who gets Jobbed".
Regarding trading an OF…
I really was looking foward to an OF of Ank, Raz, & Luds.
*Rasmus is to CF as Longoria is to 3B*
Ludwick might be overrated here.
Maybe, maybe not.
But he’s 30, had a career year last year, and has had frequent injury problems. His numbers were nearly elite last year, but I don’t think he’s an elite player. He’s okay defensively.
They should get as much as they can for Ludwick, but I’d accept Johnson and a good pitching prospect or two. Same goes for Escobar, who I’d prefer.
We can replace what Ludwick is likely to regress to. It will be much harder to upgrade the middle infield significantly.
I agree there is risk
but it is cost controlled risk. Three more years for Ludwick vs. 1 for Ankiel before we have to start paying him. I think they should get as much as they can for Ankiel and ride Ludwick as far as possible. Even if he regresses a bit, he’s still really good. And his numbers last year weren’t nearly elite. They were elite.
by Ray Lankford on Nov 6, 2008 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
That's right
Even if he’s injured and only plays two-thirds of the time he’s still a tremendous bargain. And his injuries are kind of all over the place. It’s hard to say there’s something wrong with him physically. Perhaps it’s just random occurrences. I don’t know, but if we trade the second-best slugger in baseball for a modest upgrade at second base we ought to have our freaking heads examined.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 6, 2008 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
that's what I was thinking
if he was nearly elite, then there’s only like 5 elite players in the majors
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
I like Luddy.....
More than Ankiel. I just think his swing has less holes in it.
Luddy’s numbers may drop, but I don’t think they’ll drop significantly. Maybe lose 5-7 HR’s…..and his average might fall to .280 or so. That is still pretty darn solid for what we are paying him.
Would love to move Ankiel for either a MI, or some young, cheap pitching.
Go with an OF of Luddy, Skip/Barton, and Raz next year.
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
I know this is ridiculous
but I keep expecting Ludwick to have an even better year next year and hit over 40 hrs
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
It's not at all ridiculous
His rate stats may not improve, but despite being healthy all year he only started 132 games. He could easily get another 50 ABs or so in 2009. I can’t imagine TLR will try to platoon him again.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
well
part of my even better is hitting like .315 with less of a line drive rate, but yeah, it’s not that much of a leap
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
Are we really looking at Milton bradley?
as per mlbtraderumors.
"There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary. And there are 108 stitches in a baseball. When I learned that, I gave Jesus a chance."
Probably not
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8762816/Payroll-flexibility-gives-A%27s-option-to-look-at-Furcal
The Rangers are interested in retaining Bradley, and the Blue Jays also would be a logical suitor. While Bradley fits best as a DH, he also could make sense for NL contenders such as the Mets, Cardinals and Phillies, depending upon how the offseason plays out.
Lots of qualifiers in the statements. Nothing has come from the Cards just Ken’s opinion.
He can hit but seems like an ass.
"There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary. And there are 108 stitches in a baseball. When I learned that, I gave Jesus a chance."
by Bahamaredbird on Nov 6, 2008 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
it only really makes sense
if the cards were to trade away either Ank or Lud.
I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.
I think that is what he meant
He said “depending upon how the offseason plays out” I think he means we might have interest if we trade both of them.
oops. i thought that was implied.
i was trying to say that, should we trade an outfielder or two, he is guessing we might be interested in bringing in bradley instead of filling in from within the org. i think we could stand to lose one outfielder and not have to bring in a replacement, perhaps even two… but that’s my rosy-colored glasses talking.
I don't know why we
would be interested now, since we could have had him for free last off-season. He only played 20 games in the OF last year – does anyone know if that was injury or incompetence?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
even if they trade away Ludwick or Ankiel
it still doesn’t make sense. what’s wrong with an outfield of lud/ank, rasmus, and barton/mather?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
escobar makes sense
surprisingly, in 2008 yunel escobar’s defensive metrics were comparable to iz2’s. here’s the RZR rankings for nl shortstops from THT
(RZR, OOZ)
c. izturis .869, 58
y. escobar .843, 61
if we could get him straight-up trade for ank, i say go for it mo. 4 years of escobar vs 1 year of ankiel? i just don’t think the braves would agree to that.
I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.
Dial puts Escobar 3 runs above average Offense Plus Defense
Inaz’s total value has him 30 runs above replacement so their pretty much in agreement. For reference, Izturis was a 20 run player last year over replacement according to Inaz, Izturis -2.9 in OPD.
Either way we’re looking at only 5-10 runs switching from Izturis to Escobar all things staying equal.
Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist
wow, great minds think alike...
i did this exact exercise earlier (and mentioned it above actually). interestingly enough, escobar also compares favorably to kelly johnson in GPA, PrOPS, and VORP. so he’s be a shortstop who was a similar fielder to izturis and a similar hitter to kelly johnson. my verdict; ankiel for escobar straight up would be totally sweet.
and probably not doable
I know I said I would like it but I said that knowing full well the Braves probably wouldn’t do it. But if you take those 2 and start working the deal from there it might be possible
how about ank and prospect for escobar?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Depends on the prospect
But I am thinking more along the lines of both teams giving up a prospect or two and those names just being the headliners.
that seems like wishful thinking to me
but they will have him awfully cheap for one year I guess
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
it is wishful thinking
controllable years, reasonable concerns about coming off the injuries he’s had and the like.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
you actually provided numbers though
i just stated something with no proof. i just thought it was cool that somebody on the board had the exact same thought as me—ie, “i wonder how escobar compares to izturis defensively”—and checked at least one reputable source. i wasn’t trying to accuse you of being redundant or something, and i apologize if i unintentionally sounded like i was.
Kelly Johnson? No. Escobar? Yes.
How about Ludwick + minor leaguer for Escobar + Ohman?
I’d rather keep Lud than Ank, but I’m not sure Ank gets a significant deal done.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
isn't ohman a free agent?
"I'm as nauseous as I've ever been. I have a terrible headache. My head is pounding. I feel like throwing up and I'm having trouble swallowing. And the beauty of it is, you want to feel like this every day." - Tony LaRussa
I just like putting random names into sentences
while we’re at it, we could trade Molina for Will Clark and Barry Bonds…
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
What the HECK is in Jason Kendall's cornflakes?
Am I remembering something wrong? He was never outstanding defensively, and I swear I used to watch runners go crazy on him when he came to the Cubs (I live in a Chicago burb and watch most of the games).
Answer
Miles eats it, too. Gives them a little crunch.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 6, 2008 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
just not playing in wrigley has gotta help
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
Now as brittle as Jason's knees!
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
you'd think
but the guy gets in a really low crouch and comes out of the box like a kid. I kind of wonder about that ankle.
Ludwick's 08 Line Drive Percentages
I am trying to figure out if Ludwick’s 08 was a fluke or not. The biggest stat I see that seems really outside the norm is his Line Drive % of 28.1. Which is just ridiculous since league average is 18.9% and he posted up a 18.8% in 2007. Line Drive percentage makes a huge difference in batting average numbers since line drives fall for hits over 70% of the time.
The problem is I can’t seem to find any league wide data on Line Drive percentages to analyze. Statcorner allows you to pull it up by player. I am looking to pull up every player’s line drive percentages from at least 07 and 08 to compare the too. To see how players who posted huge LD in 07 did in 08. It would be a great insight to see if Ludwick’s numbers were a fluke or not.
One thing that might be helpful
Is to pull up some scatter diagrams. There should be at least three years of them available by now. You can compare and see. Keep in mind, Ludwick changed his stance in response to Hal MacRae’s suggestion. It opened up his power considerably, and is one of the reasons I don’t think he’s a flash in the pan.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 6, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
I doubt he's a flash in the pan
but I also doubt whether he maintains last year’s performance.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Also note that Albert's percentage over his career
has fluctuated between 18% and 22. It it reasonable to expect Ludwick to be hitting line drives 25 more often than Albert does?
That’s a nice find, there.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
fangraphs leaderboard.........for mlb ld%
all / all / qualified / batted ball / batters
this high line drive %
at least explains his low clutch rating imo
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
well
if he hits into more line drive outs, then he would have less hits in those circumstances; but I guess I’d have to prove that by saying he hits into line drive outs in high pressure situations, which is probably not that true. so I see you point.
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
Typically,
line drives have a much better chance of being a hit as opposed to pop flies and grounders.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
that's what I'm saying
but you’d have to prove that Ludwick hits a lot of line drive outs in high pressue situations, which would basically mean he was very unlucky this year. could this be proven with BABIP?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
2nd on the team in WPA.
if “clutch” means helping his team win, offensivly and defensivly.
charted by individual outcome of every play he was involved in, for the season.
clutch means
according to the fangraphs stat, hitting in high leverage situations, which he didn’t do very well according to their stat, which I’m not sure how much stock I put into
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 7, 2008 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
Huuuh??
You’re saying his propensity for line drives (which have a high chance of being a hit) means he should be less successful in the clutch? Not following.
Kosuke Fukudome: $48 million .257 .359 .379
Skip Schumaker: $Free .302 .359 .406
Skippy needs a new publicist, but I heart Ben Zobrist
line drive % outs?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 7, 2008 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
Where did you get 28.1%?
THT says 26.2%.
If they are smart enough to bat him in front of Pujols for an entire season it might even go higher. His slash lines in front of Albert are outrageous!
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
You people are too narrow focused.
What was the original rumor we heard?
Cardinals interested in Jake Peavy and Khalil Greene.
Braves front runner for Jake Peavy and Khalil Greene.
Now we seem to hear those two teams talking about swapping OF’ers and MIF’ers.
So, amongst yourselves, create the 3 team deal and who gets what.
Just explain in 25 words what the team should do this offseason.
/sarcasm aimed at a different website
I'll bite
Cardinals get:
Jake Peavy
Kahlil Greene
Brent Lillibridge
Braves get:
Rick Ankiel
Pete Kozma
Padres get:
Yunel Escobar
Jeff Francouer
Mitchell Boggs
I guess. I hate doing these things. Whose stupid idea was this?
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 6, 2008 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Whoops
I forgot to give Atlanta a pitcher!
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 6, 2008 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Every time we do this
the Cardinals get the long end of the stick. How can this be in a three-way trade? Are there sticks with three ends on them?
by Red in Chicago on Nov 6, 2008 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
for what the cardinals give up in this trade...
they probably couldn’t even get Peavy, let alone the other two. or maybe i’m underestimating the value of boggs.
I'd rather my sister be a prostitute than my brother a Cub fan.
your value on Boggs is probably pretty spot on as he stands now. However, he has one key thing to work on, a change up. His fastball is + to ++ depending on how you view the movement, but it’s very solid. His slurve is acceptable to +. But his changeup is mediocre.
until that changeup matures into at least league average, left handed hitters will continue to protect against the fastball and pound his slurve. his splits are off the charts, give him that change and we may have quietly built a #3 starter.
If it doesn’t, the slurve and fastball should live well in the pen or against RH heavy lineups
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Another possibility
Cardinals get:
Yunel Escobar/Kelly Johnson or Kelly Johnson/Khalil Greene
Brent Lillibridge
Braves get:
Jake Peavy
Khalil Greene or Adam Kennedy/Kozma
Padres get:
Rick Ankiel
1 Cardinals’ Pitching Prospect
1 Braves Pitching Prospect
1 Braves MI Prospect
1 Braves OF Prospect
Ankiel doesn't seem like the type of guy the Padres would be interested in.
30 years old and only under control for 1 year.
But, then again, packaged with that haul of prospects, they might be inclined.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
I shudder to think
just how bad Jeff Francoeur could be at Petco.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Smells like pumping value to me
Quite a few teams are looking for MI, Arizona in particular. Letting it out that KJ is avail and Escobar may be for the right price as well. With Ludwick being the “targeted” one it sends a signal that even though the Braves have a OF surplus, that they’re not locking that surplus into next year.
Were signaling that Luddy is on the table for the right price, or creating interest for the org that may have someone settle for another of our OF.
Just seems like the Jason Bay scenario of last year. I still feel that when we were rumored to be after him, we pumped his value and visibility quite a bit. If so, the Pirates owe us for that one.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 2:30 PM EST reply actions
Of whom does Atlanta's OF surplus consist?
Honest question. I don’t know prospects for any teams besides the Cards very well at all. I’m confused, because I thought they still were gonna have Francoeur and Jones clogging things up. KC is apparently in love with Francoeur, and who wouldn’t want to get rid of Jones right now.
Schafer, Hernandez are also in the mix.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
my question is
realistically, when do you think this trading will go down?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
i don't know
i do believe there’s too much momentum for Peavy to be gone at some point.
I just think that Atlanta is just going to be a loud rumor mill this year. Very loud it seems.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
the suspense is killing me
but with this team, it could very well be killing me for months
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
i agree
it seems like posturing. although trying to say that kj is worth ludwick would probably push teams away rather than intrigue them.
i do think that after all the non-happenings at this year’s trade deadline lots of things will happen this offseason. sounds like gm’s were asking way to much for their goodies and i think they will lower those prices to get things done this time around.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
yeah
I think things will be a lot more realistic on the trade front than at the trade deadline
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Well it opens up a few things. This is the true first time Ludwick has been considered on a trade block, even if it’s not true there’s now public mention. So hopefully it’ll bring a mass amount of interest. Even backhandedly it may put a notice that Ludwick isn’t going to bring in “names”, but “needs”. I love Luddy, but if he can command a cost controlled/team controlled MI and possibly more? With our surplus you have to consider that. We should save a little on arb as well.
If Tyler Wilson (an awesome – in my opinion- LHP. very nice stuff, solid k rate, 22yo, some control issues) is in the mix, I’d be more excited. He’s not the biggest name in the Braves farm system, but considering they have pitching woes themselves, he’s most likely the easiest to try and get. Pruneda would be another name that I’d love to get my hands on, 100mph type guy with a high ground ball rate – not common. He’s down the list in closer types within a system that has a ton of closer types.
But KJ + _ certainly isn’t low balling us if the rest of the league expects a 20-25% regression, so it’s not an insult. When you’re dealing with a team that has Francoeur (currently) vs the idea of Ludwick – 25%, you’d have to think that they may be willing to come up to Escobar.
But yeah, I still think it’s trying to overprice KJ for someone like Az who really wants a 2b and hopefully we can get Esco’ instead.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
Congrats to Yadi...
It’s about time. I do think this was a make-up award, but I won’t complain. I know everyone thinks Albert got robbed (as do I). But I’m surprised I haven’t seen as much outcry for Santa…I thought he had a great chance at it. I mean he hit 27 homers this year.
"I've never felt better to be hit by a big guy like that in my life." - Brad Lidge on Ryan Howard
lol
at least he lost to David, anyone else I’d be more pissed. if only he could have belted another 3 hr. a 30hr GG sounds so much better
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
Damn allergies...that's what cost him
"I've never felt better to be hit by a big guy like that in my life." - Brad Lidge on Ryan Howard
by RunninRedbird on Nov 6, 2008 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
gold glove
i am happy for yadi, but i also think albert and glaus should have won as well
as far as albert goes, he was the biggest snub according to skip bayless (shocking support for a cardinal from the wwl), bayless actually called albert a very good third baseman who played first
Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.
sad thing is
if we woulda been in first place, all 3 of them probably woulda won gold gloves
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
That's probably true.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
just a guess
but I have to say that I would assume while Albert prides his defense and works on it hard, the Clemente award carried more significance than the GG ever could. I’d even say that the Clemente award may carry more significance than a possible MVP award does.
Not saying he didn’t get snubbed, but framing it in the context of the character of the man. Albert is one of a kind.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
The side effect...
That I haven’t read is the fact if we were to lose Luddy, we’re really, really, isolating Albert in the lineup. While I agree that you’re not going to protect him in the Manny/Ortiz sense without costing us some serious, serious coin and only possible with a few players, at least Ryan when he was on made them rethink the idea of adding another runner just to bypass Albert. Compounding the fact that we’ll be relying to have better discipline and come back (power wise) from his injury that isn’t going to be the easiest to do.
It’s a rough thought having two long swinging batters behind Albert without Ryan around in there somewhere.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 5:28 PM EST reply actions
Obviously a straight up trade would be ridiculous
but it says “multi-player” trade. Wonder what the other parts might be?
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
yeah
the other parts to the trade make things much more interesting, especially if there’s mifs involved
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
I can think of one mif on the Rockies that interests me....
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
Troy interests me
But both of them involved in one deal would be a mammoth one.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, I know,
but out of curiosity I just snooped around the Rockies organEYEzation for middle infielders, and they’re about as bare as we are. Hector Gomez looks intriguing but he’s 20 years old and really hasn’t made it past low A ball. I have a feeling the Cards brass isn’t interested in him.
Honestly, I’m not sure what (outside of Holliday) would interest the Cards from that team.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
Here's more names and more specifics
from Tracy Rigolsby of the Rocky Mountain News.
The Rockies explored trade possibilities for Holliday, third baseman Garrett Atkins and center fielder Willy Taveras during the general manager meetings, which ended Thursday. In dealing Holliday and Atkins, the Rockies want to acquire a starting pitcher ready to step into the rotation, bullpen help with an emphasis on a left-hander, and a right-handed hitting outfielder to combine with left-handed-hitting Seth Smith in filling the left field void.
Of course, it doesn’t specifically say the Cardinals are interested in those other players (obviously Tavares is not interesting), but it shows what they’re looking for. But once again, there ain’t a whole lot on that team that is needed on the Cardinals.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
Once you leave MI out of the picture (with Tulo being the real only asset), you have to look at LHP which is something we’re steady on needing depth and this year.
Luis Gonzalez seems to be intriguing, but nothing else stands out.
And yeah, we have no inclination for the CF or 3b, that’s for sure.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
Can Ian Stewart make it as a full time second baseman?
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
I don't know
but they have Eric Young in the wings, and while he’s not fully developed, he’s doing a solid job in Winter league – hitting something like .430ish with 5k, 5bb and 2hr
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
Not bad.
Wonder why he only played 105 games this year? And would he be ready to start in ’09? And would LaRussa let him play? (sorry to open that can of worms)
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
Ha, Ha. Tackle Box opening a can of worms.....
That made me laugh.
Let’s all go fishing.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
I guess I could say I did that on purpose........
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
If we had young
he’d be in Memphis with an ST invite I’d say. But I don’t know anything of value about him besides his numbers and they don’t scream out greatness, but potential. 23yo, 700+ OPS all three seasons so far. ISO over .100 but isn’t much to write home about, much better than someone they shipped up to Denver this year (Herrera)
Actually looking at Hoff’s stats, he’s probably no better than what we have within our own system on the offensive side.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
as far as Tony playing him
depends on who else is on the roster.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
One MAJOR difference between Young and Hoff
Speed. 46 SB vs. 2
Also, Young has stolen 245 bases in 449 career minor league games. Kid’s got wheels.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
indeed
i usually don’t look at SB since we don’t have a manager that employs sb all that much. Which is interesting about the genuine interest in Holliday, he has wheels too, especially for a potential clean up hitter.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
and to note
I don’t think Luis and Holliday are both enough for Ludwick. Not saying he’s worth three or four players, but when you consider the team and cost control vs the risk, it has to be multiplayer on both sides. Or Holliday would have to sign a considerable club friendly contract – which isn’t likely considering he’ll be 29 on FA year.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
How does Holliday help in the long run?
Next year his salary goes up dramatically, we should assume. Ludwick is cost-controlled for three more years. We’ve got Carpenter on the shelf and the need for another 1/2-type pitcher potentially. That’s an awful lot of flexibility to give up for a little higher average and—maybe—a bit more slugging.
Plus, we don’t have any pitchers to give, right? If we traded Ludwick & Wellemeyer for Holliday & Tulowitizki, that would be alright with me, so long as the club can find a replacement for the Colonel with their cramped budget.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 6, 2008 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think pitchers are really on the table. They may be, Motte I believe was part of what Colorado was looking for when we were looking at their closer. But from everything I’ve read it doesn’t appear pitching is the sole demand (since they have a 3b and a CF they may try to leverage pitching there).
But from an front office point of view, trading and extending Holliday is a marketing dream. You’re essentially looking at an Edmonds like marketing approach.
His contract could actually not cost anything in the scheme of things I’d hazard to guess. But if there’s an artificial cap on the salary we’re going to spend, his contract will kill us long term.
Having Tulo would nullify some of that cost because he’s cheap and fills a need, but Tulo hasn’t been mentioned and I doubt we could garner enough to get both.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 8:03 PM EST up reply actions
here ya go
Cards get:
Holliday
Tulo
Rocks get:
Ludwick
Motte
Boggs
Kozma
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
in. a. heartbeat.
No question. Well, ok, I’d try and throw Barden in and see if we could get a LHP from them. Oddly enough if that were to happen, we’d fill 3/4ths of our needs in one trade
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
Can't throw in Barden
According to MLB’s official website, he is a minor league free agent. Strange, haven’t seen or heard anything about that around here.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
shouldn't be
unless we removed him from the 40-man, since he was a sept callup. We should control him for 5 or 6 more years.
That may have happened, but i didn’t see any announcement about it. He’s still listed on the mlb page.
http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/team/roster_active.jsp?c_id=stl
the enemy's gate is down.
MLB needs to get its stuff straight
Cuz they have him listed here as a minor league FA.
I’ll defer to you on this one, probably just a mistake since there has been no mention of this anywhere.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Wow
I almost thought you wrote MILFs. Now that would be more interesting.:-)
by Red in Chicago on Nov 6, 2008 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
heh
I was kinda hoping someone would pick up on that
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 7, 2008 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
huh
I wouldn’t mind getting Holliday, but isn’t it like getting almost the same player, but costing us tons, I mean tons, more?
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 6, 2008 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
and under control for one year
not 3.
I’d LOVE to get holliday while keeping Luddy, though.
the enemy's gate is down.
I'd trade Ankiel for him yesterday.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
You'd of thought he would have made an impression
considering how badly he kicked their ass in Denver. But his injury status and one year really kills him going anywhere for a trade like this.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
5 things
Talks about an extension – would it be a trade and extend, if so… for how much?
Players involved, we need more and they can’t use a 2b so dumping Kennedy won’t happen.
That Peavy deal looks to be screwing us either way we go since Peavy looks to stop us from MI help.
The chat before the talks seemed to send a broad signal to all other clubs, Rasmus is in our ‘09 plans, so adjust accordingly, he hasn’t been brought up in any talks since – good thing.
If Luddy has trade value for two completely different teams, maybe we can gain something extra if we play our cards right.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
Meaning
maybe with Holliday coming to the table with the Rockies, maybe the Braves will stay at the table with a little more vigor. Depends how Peavy shakes out.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
While heavily cynical
and not sure on how accurate, Holliday could be a FO move to try and encourage some more season ticket sales. Since his name does have value and is involved in a dual market between both teams. meaning, for a rockies player he has high visibility here.
But when you break down both player’s numbers that’s hedging a lot on Luddy as a career year. It’s kind of amazing actually considering how anti injury history most of the Cardinals fans are. Yeah, Luddy may be a position player and not a pitcher, but his body has had a lot of work.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
Purple Row
The rockies blog seems to think they can net several players. If that happens and we’re that team and it’s only one year/ or extended for extreme money for Holliday, I’m going to be pissed.
The last place we need to dump prospects for is RF and the OF is the last place we need to spend money.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
Purple Row seems dead set on getting a pitcher
if that’s the case, then this will never happen.
But, I also get the impression they feel they would only be giving up Holliday and would get multiple players in return. Well, that might happen somewhere, but not with the Cardinals and Ryan Ludwick.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
agreed..
Mo is not stupid…. I don’t know why people get all jumpy. Mo told teams to shove it when they wanted Motte this year, I think he values Ludwick more than Motte and fully understands Luddy’s value.. If he doesn’t I am sure someone in the FO is running the numbers.
If it weren't for jumping to conclusions
many on this board would never get any exercise.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
amen brotha!
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
and most would probably agree with you when you consider risks
but there’s a difference in using him to garner cost controlled and talented MI which is what this whole day started on, rather than lud with questionable splits.
if it happens, it better be multiplayer on both sides. feels too much to me like a salary dump/prospect grab and that isn’t a good idea
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 6, 2008 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
Wellemeyer
is a potential name. Say Wellemeyer and Todd. Maybe even throw in Franklin. But then that opens a hole in our rotation that we would be filling with (probably) Looper. We would then have one No. 2, three No. 4s and one No. 5. Gag.
Unless DeWitt just found a steamer trunk full of money and wants to go after Burnett or something. We really don’t have what they need, even if we do have lust for Holliday.
by Red in Chicago on Nov 6, 2008 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
I think Luds for Holliday would be an even deal.
Luds has more years left on a club friendly contract with less proven success while Holliday has more proven succes on a less club friendly contract.
I think they balance out.
Now I don’t know how you get Tulo in that deal. I don’t think it is possible but I guess we will see.
*Rasmus is to CF as Longoria is to 3B*
I dunno...
I don’t see how Holiday for Ludwick would solve any of the Cardinals problems. Indeed, it makes the problems harder to move.
Because you are getting rid of a pretty good trading chip (Ludwick) and using up a good deal of money (At least $8 million) which could have gone towards getting a closer or a 2b/SS.
Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro
+1
Ludwick’s bat this year was just as productive as Holliday’s, so I can’t see this being Tony’s impact player in the lineup if you have to give up a guy who is just as good to get him. It would completely defeat the purpose of the “impact bat”
"I've never felt better to be hit by a big guy like that in my life." - Brad Lidge on Ryan Howard
by RunninRedbird on Nov 6, 2008 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
knowing Tony logic
he probably would be the “impact” bat because he is more “respected” than ludwick. tony is all about intimidation behind pujols.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
Luddy should legally change his name
to Thudwick…that would strike fear in the hearts of opposing pitchers. Now Tony’s happy :)
"I've never felt better to be hit by a big guy like that in my life." - Brad Lidge on Ryan Howard
by RunninRedbird on Nov 6, 2008 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
if we trade for an outfielder
before we trade for a MI i’m pretty sure i’m gonna throw up. especially if that outfielder is one we will have to pay pujols money to.
the last i heard 4/60 wasn’t gonna do it. he a boras client so its probably going to be more like 6/100. Unless dewitt plans on raising the payroll 15 mil i don’t see how this works.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
couldn't agree more
trading 3 yrs of cheap luddwick for 1 year of expensive holliday makes absolutly no sense to me.
by Walking Underwear on Nov 6, 2008 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
or just Ludwick
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 7, 2008 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
anybody got Mo's cell number?
somebody has to call that guy and talk some sense into him. heh.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
Yeah, this Holliday idea
has been stuck in their heads for an eternity. Ludwick is an awfully valuable asset to trade for one-year rental Boras client who wants major jack to sign long-term. Also, wouldn’t a Holliday contract rush the Pujols extension? How can possibly justify paying Holliday more than Pujols—even if it’s just for a couple of years?
by Red in Chicago on Nov 6, 2008 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
exactly
it’s just stupid to trade a great outfielder for a more expensive great outfielder, this is hopefully just a rumor!
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 7, 2008 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
I don't get the obsession with Holliday
So we want to trade a right-handed power hitter who is under team control for three years for a more expensive left-handed one who will be a free agent at the end of 2009? And the guy we want to acquire has Scott Boras as his agent. And we already have another lefty power hitting outfielder who has Boras as his agent and will be a free agent at the end of the year. This just seems moronic to me. Escobar makes sense—Holliday doesn’t.
Now if you we are talking Halliday…that is another story altogether.
The obsession is one man
Tony LaRussa and his temper-tantrum power plays.
Mozeliak will placate him just so maybe he will shut up about the ‘impact bat’ BS.
Give Tony his big, lumbering slugger (see: McGwire, Mark: Duncan, Chris) and then force him to take Rasmus on Opening Day.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 6, 2008 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
if he wants an impact bat that badly we should trade for a possition of need not surplus
like (Uggla, Dan, Ramierez, Hanley) someone of that nature
by bearcatcardfan on Nov 6, 2008 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
uggla isn't all that
and we’re not getting hanley
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 7, 2008 1:08 AM EST up reply actions
yeah but he's more than what we curently have
by bearcatcardfan on Nov 7, 2008 1:09 AM EST up reply actions
considering the prospects we'll lose
getting him vs what kennedy bat AND glove can offer.
We’ll lose in all ways, short and long term.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 7, 2008 1:11 AM EST up reply actions
I'd clean out the farm for Hanley Ramirez
Rasmus, Perez, Kozma, Anderson, Todd — hold nothing back.
He’s a 6 win upgrade at shortstop.
+1
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 7, 2008 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
that was the impression I got
from the strauss(?) article on the P-d.
mo probably has to walk a thin line, to balance between all the personalities in the organization. Hope he walks it well.
the enemy's gate is down.
Which is why Walter was fired
to bring harmony in the organization. Problem is, they left one troublemaker in the corner office.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 7, 2008 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
troublemaker?
how could this guy cause any trouble?
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
i love the lineup in pic#1
he totally predicted 2006, with that shirt… in, like, 1986.
And his daughters (and wife- one of them is his wife, right?) in pic #5 are beyond reproach. When I am 64, I pray my daughters look that good.
[Well, it’ll make it harder to intimidate their 40yo BF’s, but I’ll manage.]
And if you f—- with my puppies, when i am 50, I will pay someone to make you disappear. That is all.
don sleepy
the enemy's gate is down.
I don't see him needing to be forced to take Colby
Out of ST he was quoted on how impressed he was with Ras, the Org shifted him to AAA. And if that’s premised on being quoted saying Colby didn’t earn call up, well.. he didn’t.
Can’t say I blame him on the impact bat part. Which gets bantered around here as if it’s a negative all of the time. To me it’s pretty clear, he was in support of getting Bonds (which at one point or another, most here were) and used the trade deadline to term it impact bat. When every night you’re in high stress mode with little run difference on the scoreboard, I’d be pretty pissed my Front Office was in the “don’t sign Bonds” to help the pissing contest with other FOs around the league.
Ya know, impact bat could mean "give me someone else to put in the 4 spot so i can shift Ryan to the #2. Something that is very aligned with what Tony has done in the past.
"The Post-Dispatch Cardinals website continues down a path where you'll notice it's really a few McCarvers leading a pack of Dusty Bakers. I'm so glad they don't represent Cardinal Nation. No wonder newspapers are going down in shambles"
by AdjustedExpectations on Nov 7, 2008 1:20 AM EST up reply actions
especially when you consider
Ludwick was 2nd only to Pujols in Slugging % in the NL
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 7, 2008 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
They are close to the same player aswell
Luddy
.299 .375 .591
Holliday
.321 .409 .538
Luddy has lower BA and OBP and speed but higher SLG and OPS
Luddy is only a year and a half older than Holliday
Luddy will make about the same as Holliday over his 3 years as holliday’s contract alone for 2009
by bearcatcardfan on Nov 6, 2008 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
Something to think about.....
But if Holliday puts up the same line next year, and Ludwick falls off, that “difference” starts becomind pretty big.
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
but you forget the Coors effect
we know Holliday will fall off, and we don’t know if Ludwick will get hurt or not (which to me is the only thing stopping him from batting well again). I’ll go with Ludwick here.
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 7, 2008 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
There is absolutely no evidence that proves Holliday will fall off in his production.
Catherine whispered into my ear, her breath rich with faraway spices, that she desire to make love. She wanted to try shinshi shinshi. Now, I'd been begging her to try shinshi shinshi for months. She'd refused on the grounds that it was unclean. Finally, she was willing to accept her lover's body in places no one had ever trespassed. Specifically, the ear canal.
I WANT DAN UGGLA
forget holliday. trade ludwick, anderson, and motte for dan uggla. i will pimp this trade on every place i can until mo sees it and calls the marlins. that kind of production at 2b would be incredible.
and before people say he cant play d please keep in mind one all star game doesnt make him terrible. hes not good but neither is miles or lopez. actually lopez might be terrible. ill take below average d at 2b anyways with that bat. we could sign cesar at ss.
if we get uggla
we might as well re-sign izturis
this line is dedicated to '09
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 7, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
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